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  1. #1
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I'd been wondering about this for a while. For those who don't remember the discussion about extending Kawhi in 2015, we ended up finding out that players getting a Rose extension have to make at least 25 percent of the cap their first year and have maximum raises. Therefore, a team could never give a Rose extension for a smaller APY than they could give a regular extension. I had assumed that same restriction applied with the Durant rule (vet DPE). However, according to this article by RealGM, it does not.

    https://basketball.realgm.com/articl...eran-Contracts

    Designated Veteran contracts can have raises or declines. While Designated Player extensions in the prior CBA required maximum (7.5%) annual raises, those rules are not in place for Designated Veteran contracts this time around. They can rise or fall as long as they fulfill the starting salary parameter discussed above.
    The "starting salary parameter" is that the first year must be for at least 30 percent of the cap. However, the fact that the salary can remain static or even decline means the Spurs can give Kawhi a front-loaded or flat extension this off-season. (In case anyone is wondering, the smallest DPE extension the Spurs could offer is $126M/5 -- the length of the contract is non-negotiable). They have obvious motivations to try to do this right now, given Kawhi's injury history. Not only can they not be comfortable with giving up more than $200 Million to a guy who missed the year with a potentially chronic injury, but they probably feel like Kawhi's team has to be concerned about another injury-filled season and what that would mean to him long-term. Dennis & Co. have a ton of reasons to look to lock in a deal this summer if they have any concerns at all about their ward's future.

    I honestly think this is the crux of the issue right now, rather than merely deciding between a super-max or trade. The Spurs are likely genuine in their desire to keep Leonard for the long haul but will not destroy their cap to do so, especially after this season. Kawhi's group likely feels like the team is playing up the injury to try to gouge them and are threatening to pull out if Leonard is not given every concession. Ultimately, though, there's a legit chance of their being a number and structure out there on which the sides will agree. I didn't believe that when it seemed like $219M or playing out the year. This new info has almost $100 Million in play. Both sides are likely butt-hurt and playing hardball still, but I think they've been to the table already and will be again before the draft.

  2. #2
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.
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  3. #3
    Kawhobe Bryonard TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

  4. #4
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    The thing about going too low is that the Lakers WILL offer him 4/139 next summer if he’s available. You have to come in higher than that, and enough to make them forget that number.

    How soon can they offer an opt out? Three years?
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  5. #5
    Believe. barbacoataco's Avatar
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    Good analysis. The part I don't get is why Leonard didn't come back for the playoffs to show he can play. From a negotiation standpoint it would have strengthened his hand. The only explanation to me is that he couldn't. If I was management I would have a hard time trusting that he'll be able to stay on the court.
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  6. #6
    Believe.
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    trusting that he'll be able to stay on the court.
    his long history of injuries, esp on that leg, missing an entire season, greatly reduce his prospects, a huge contract is a huge gamble

  7. #7
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.
    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.
    It's not a matter of lowballing him. Kawhi may have a career-altering injury. That used to be mostly baseless speculation on my part, but that big ESPN piece seemed to suggest that was the case. At least that the Spurs believe it is the case. It's simply not responsible to give a guy money you know he can't earn. While they may have always been wary of giving out the full DPE-max, my guess is that they think he'll be something of a part-time player from now on regardless. Another season like this year, and teams will hesitate before offering a full max deal. We'll see how many do for Cousins this summer. Kawhi's camp doesn't have the leverage to walk if they know the Spurs are right about his injury.

  8. #8
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    The thing about going too low is that the Lakers WILL offer him 4/139 next summer if he’s available. You have to come in higher than that, and enough to make them forget that number.

    How soon can they offer an opt out? Three years?
    It's only too low if he is actually going to be healthy this year. The Lakers are not going to throw a max deal after a guy who misses two years with leg injuries. I don't think the team will protect him this time.

    But yeah, the Spurs likely aren't planning on going completely low. They just aren't willing to do like $50 Million in some of these years. It should be higher than what another team could give just to speed things along, but there's something to be said about extensions having a lower APY than free-agent deals do. The idea behind all this is for Kawhi to lock in a deal now before it becomes public how bad his injury really is. I don't think SA is willing to give him guarantees without concessions.

  9. #9
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    I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.
    Well, they're retards if they do lowball him. If he's healthy and they lowball him, then they're retards.

    They've overpaid pieces of shit that didn't earn it, they can pay Kawhi. If not, I don't blame him if/when he tells them to go F themselves.

  10. #10
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Well, they're retards if they do lowball him. If he's healthy and they lowball him, then they're retards.

    They've overpaid pieces of shit that didn't earn it, they can pay Kawhi. If not, I don't blame him if/when he tells them to go F themselves.
    I'm still struggling to figure out the Pau deal. But I've come to terms with the Mills deal. He's not a great deal, but he has a role, and he got better at doing that role as the season wore on. Second-leading scorer in the playoffs, wasn't the reason SA lost. Get a better back court around him, and he should be fine. I don't think you can justify giving Leonard $44 Million just because you gave Mills $12 Million.

  11. #11
    Believe. Troy McClure's Avatar
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.
    Hi, my name's LaMarcus Aldridge.

    You may remember me from such NBA seasons as 2017/18.


  12. #12
    Kori's nightmare SpurOutofTownFan's Avatar
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    Shit isn't normal. Something is up.

    And I don't realistically see any team (include the Spurs) offering top money unless his health is out of the question... sorry.

  13. #13
    D up! exstatic's Avatar
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    It's only too low if he is actually going to be healthy this year. The Lakers are not going to throw a max deal after a guy who misses two years with leg injuries. I don't think the team will protect him this time.

    But yeah, the Spurs likely aren't planning on going completely low. They just aren't willing to do like $50 Million in some of these years. It should be higher than what another team could give just to speed things along, but there's something to be said about extensions having a lower APY than free-agent deals do. The idea behind all this is for Kawhi to lock in a deal now before it becomes public how bad his injury really is. I don't think SA is willing to give him guarantees without concessions.
    You're assuming rational decision making. The Lakers are a dumpster fire. Their young talent didn't make the leap to the playoffs, but they were good enough to not get a pick that will help them. They either need to roll the dice, or go back into the tank. They're stuck.

  14. #14
    Kawhobe Bryonard TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Hi, my name's LaMarcus Aldridge.

    You may remember me from such NBA seasons as 2017/18.

    I know who that is. That's the guy PATFO committed a shit load of money to until he's 35yrs old despite requesting a trade and playing subpar during his two years in a Spurs uniform.

    Anyways, back to idiotically thinking of lowballing a Top 3 player in the league and proven winner all the while Mills and Gasol make $98,000,000 for being cancerous pieces of shits.

  15. #15
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.
    I didn't see him shouldering a lot of load this season, maybe it's just me...

  16. #16
    Believe.
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    Hi, my name's LaMarcus Aldridge.

    You may remember me from such NBA seasons as 2017/18.


  17. #17
    #boldchickenstrips RD2191's Avatar
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.
    Truth bomb. And fuck anyone who supports patfo lowballing kawhi.

  18. #18
    #boldchickenstrips RD2191's Avatar
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    I know who that is. That's the guy PATFO committed a shit load of money to until he's 35yrs old despite requesting a trade and playing subpar during his two years in a Spurs uniform.

    Anyways, back to idiotically thinking of lowballing a Top 3 player in the league and proven winner all the while Mills and Gasol make $98,000,000 for being cancerous pieces of shits.
    Spur fags supporting a pussy who quit on the Spurs and begged lillard for a spot back on the blazers.

  19. #19
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Kawhi could easily be the next Grant Hill. Spurs should say come back next season and prove you can play and you get the supermax then.

  20. #20
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    I'd been wondering about this for a while. For those who don't remember the discussion about extending Kawhi in 2015, we ended up finding out that players getting a Rose extension have to make at least 25 percent of the cap their first year and have maximum raises. Therefore, a team could never give a Rose extension for a smaller APY than they could give a regular extension. I had assumed that same restriction applied with the Durant rule (vet DPE). However, according to this article by RealGM, it does not.

    https://basketball.realgm.com/articl...eran-Contracts



    The "starting salary parameter" is that the first year must be for at least 30 percent of the cap. However, the fact that the salary can remain static or even decline means the Spurs can give Kawhi a front-loaded or flat extension this off-season. (In case anyone is wondering, the smallest DPE extension the Spurs could offer is $126M/5 -- the length of the contract is non-negotiable). They have obvious motivations to try to do this right now, given Kawhi's injury history. Not only can they not be comfortable with giving up more than $200 Million to a guy who missed the year with a potentially chronic injury, but they probably feel like Kawhi's team has to be concerned about another injury-filled season and what that would mean to him long-term. Dennis & Co. have a ton of reasons to look to lock in a deal this summer if they have any concerns at all about their ward's future.

    I honestly think this is the crux of the issue right now, rather than merely deciding between a super-max or trade. The Spurs are likely genuine in their desire to keep Leonard for the long haul but will not destroy their cap to do so, especially after this season. Kawhi's group likely feels like the team is playing up the injury to try to gouge them and are threatening to pull out if Leonard is not given every concession. Ultimately, though, there's a legit chance of their being a number and structure out there on which the sides will agree. I didn't believe that when it seemed like $219M or playing out the year. This new info has almost $100 Million in play. Both sides are likely butt-hurt and playing hardball still, but I think they've been to the table already and will be again before the draft.
    In fairness to the Spurs, when Curry had all those issues with his ankles and was deemed injury-prone, he signed an extension that was discounted due to his injury history. That contract was part of the reason GSW were able to get Durrant. In my opinion, if there is a risk that this is chronic, and from what I've seen that is at least the opinion of some of the doctors, the Spurs have to negotiate to pay less than the super max, even if they are still paying him more than any team. And Kawhi's group is going must realize that if they go somewhere else, most teams will likely hedge as well.

  21. #21
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.
    Well, hold on. Spurs doctors, from some things I've read, see his injury as degenerative. If it is something that will get worse over time, then either Kawhi will play reduced minutes, miss games, or possibly even miss more seasons. If there is any basis to believe it is degenerative (and there is given he missed a whole season), Spurs would take a huge gamble to give this guy the super max. It would essentially destroy their team for years if his injury is degenerative. And while you are all in on Kawhi now, you'll be posting with pitchforks if he sits out the next two seasons on his supermax deal because his injury is getting worse.

    And Kawhi is taking a big risk by playing out his last year. If his knee isn't 100% and if he has to miss significant time like last year, his market value will tank. He won't get max contracts from anyone. They've all seen this movie, and no one will be fighting to pay full price for an injury risk. If Kawhi wants security, he gets his contract resolved with the Spurs now. Otherwise, he is taking a huge gamble on waiting on this next year. Essentially, he'll have to play like an all star to ensure he gets his max payday and injuries, etc. will significantly harm his value.

  22. #22
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    In fairness to the Spurs, when Curry had all those issues with his ankles and was deemed injury-prone, he signed an extension that was discounted due to his injury history. That contract was part of the reason GSW were able to get Durrant. In my opinion, if there is a risk that this is chronic, and from what I've seen that is at least the opinion of some of the doctors, the Spurs have to negotiate to pay less than the super max, even if they are still paying him more than any team. And Kawhi's group is going must realize that if they go somewhere else, most teams will likely hedge as well.
    The Spurs have two things in their favor. The first is as you said: SA can pay more than any other team while still being able to take millions off the APY. The second thing is that only SA can give him a legit extension this season. Other teams can only extend him off his 2019 base salary. Therefore, if Kawhi has any concerns about his long-term health, then locking in a deal now has real value. He may not be able to afford to wait until he's a free agent.

  23. #23
    #boldchickenstrips RD2191's Avatar
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    Kawhi could easily be the next Grant Hill. Spurs should say come back next season and prove you can play and you get the supermax then.
    Or he could come back, kill it, tell the Spurs to fuck themselves, and walk when the season is over.

  24. #24
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    Everything hinges on the honesty of the player and doctors about his medical condition. I'm wondering if the NY doctors have been authorized by Kwahi to give the Spurs a report on their findings. Is it a chronic problem, all fixed now, or something in between.

    If the Spurs aren't given the NY doctors' information, that is disturbing. Why would Kwahi and his 'group' want that information kept from the Spurs? There are several possibilities about that---and none of them are good for the Spurs.

  25. #25
    R.C. Deez Nuts. Mugen's Avatar
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    Everything hinges on the honesty of the player and doctors about his medical condition. I'm wondering if the NY doctors have been authorized by Kwahi to give the Spurs a report on their findings. Is it a chronic problem, all fixed now, or something in between.

    If the Spurs aren't given the NY doctors' information, that is disturbing. Why would Kwahi and his 'group' want that information kept from the Spurs? There are several possibilities about that---and none of them are good for the Spurs.
    That is 100% pre-requisite before any extension talks between the Spurs and Kawhi's group.

  26. #26
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    i just hope the uncle for kawhi leonard isn't the same type of uncle that boobie miles had.
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  27. #27
    Kawhobe Bryonard TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.

  28. #28
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of lowballing him. Kawhi may have a career-altering injury. That used to be mostly baseless speculation on my part, but that big ESPN piece seemed to suggest that was the case. At least that the Spurs believe it is the case. It's simply not responsible to give a guy money you know he can't earn. While they may have always been wary of giving out the full DPE-max, my guess is that they think he'll be something of a part-time player from now on regardless. Another season like this year, and teams will hesitate before offering a full max deal. We'll see how many do for Cousins this summer. Kawhi's camp doesn't have the leverage to walk if they know the Spurs are right about his injury.
    IMO, teams make those gambles all the time. Duncan on the Spurs was certainly one, Amare, even Nash with his bad bad on the Lakeshow. There's the insurance to recoup some of the money, plus teams now have more money to spend than ever.

    What I would certainly hate is the Spurs getting into an Amare situation, where they could not insure him, because then they really would have a terrible time trading him and have to eat the whole contract.

  29. #29
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

    Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:


    Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 Total Average
    Total $37,117,500 $34,148,100 $34,148,100 $37,117,500 $40,086,900 $182,618,100 $36,523,620
    Base $31,815,000 $29,269,805 $29,269,805 $31,815,005 $34,360,206 $156,529,821 $31,305,964
    Incentives $5,302,500 $4,878,295 $4,878,295 $5,302,495 $5,726,694 $26,088,279 $5,217,656

    Contrast that with a max offer from another team:

    Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 Total Average
    Total $31,815,000 $33,405,750 $34,996,500 $36,587,250 $136,804,500 $34,201,125

    $20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

  30. #30
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    Or he could come back, kill it, tell the Spurs to fuck themselves, and walk when the season is over.
    ofcourse spurs could suspend him and he forfeit money
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