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  1. #26
    Pronouns: Your/Dad TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.

  2. #27
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of lowballing him. Kawhi may have a career-altering injury. That used to be mostly baseless speculation on my part, but that big ESPN piece seemed to suggest that was the case. At least that the Spurs believe it is the case. It's simply not responsible to give a guy money you know he can't earn. While they may have always been wary of giving out the full DPE-max, my guess is that they think he'll be something of a part-time player from now on regardless. Another season like this year, and teams will hesitate before offering a full max deal. We'll see how many do for Cousins this summer. Kawhi's camp doesn't have the leverage to walk if they know the Spurs are right about his injury.
    IMO, teams make those gambles all the time. Duncan on the Spurs was certainly one, Amare, even Nash with his bad bad on the Lakeshow. There's the insurance to recoup some of the money, plus teams now have more money to spend than ever.

    What I would certainly hate is the Spurs getting into an Amare situation, where they could not insure him, because then they really would have a terrible time trading him and have to eat the whole contract.

  3. #28
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

    Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:


    Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 Total Average
    Total $37,117,500 $34,148,100 $34,148,100 $37,117,500 $40,086,900 $182,618,100 $36,523,620
    Base $31,815,000 $29,269,805 $29,269,805 $31,815,005 $34,360,206 $156,529,821 $31,305,964
    Incentives $5,302,500 $4,878,295 $4,878,295 $5,302,495 $5,726,694 $26,088,279 $5,217,656

    Contrast that with a max offer from another team:

    Year 2019 2020 2021 2022 Total Average
    Total $31,815,000 $33,405,750 $34,996,500 $36,587,250 $136,804,500 $34,201,125

    $20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

  4. #29
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    Or he could come back, kill it, tell the Spurs to themselves, and walk when the season is over.
    ofcourse spurs could suspend him and he forfeit money

  5. #30
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    IMO, teams make those gambles all the time. Duncan on the Spurs was certainly one, Amare, even Nash with his bad bad on the Lakeshow. There's the insurance to recoup some of the money, plus teams now have more money to spend than ever.

    What I would certainly hate is the Spurs getting into an Amare situation, where they could not insure him, because then they really would have a terrible time trading him and have to eat the whole contract.
    That's why SA has to protect themselves by not offering a full max. Kawhi won't be insurable wherever he goes unless he plays a full 82 next year. Even if he were, a Kawhi to is hobbled but plays like 60-something games, even with an MPG in the 20s warrants no insurance payout. The chances of Leonard's injury being career-ending seem remote. He'd instead just end up being a relative s of himself.

  6. #31
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.
    it is mental

  7. #32
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    From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension.
    IIRC Embiid's extension in Philly include injury clauses of some sort?

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...ract-extension

    "The deal will include some salary-cap protection for the 76ers should Embiid suffer an injury that causes him to miss significant playing time, league sources said."

    Presumably a similar clause could be in a Kawhi deal.

  8. #33
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    IIRC Embiid's extension in Philly include injury clauses of some sort?

    http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...ract-extension

    "The deal will include some salary-cap protection for the 76ers should Embiid suffer an injury that causes him to miss significant playing time, league sources said."

    Presumably a similar clause could be in a Kawhi deal.
    The Embiid deal includes clauses that allow the Sixers to release Joel if he gets a career-ending injury to his feet or back (with varying levels of protection depending on how early in the deal the injury would occur). There's little point in doing that for Kawhi, because he should be able to still have a full career even if the injury is degenerative. It just won't be as good. In the NFL, teams can put in escalators in addition to incentives to boost future base-salaries if certain conditions are met. That would be what SA really needs here. Like if Kawhi comes back and performs like an MVP, pay him as such. But if he comes back and is just an average dude or part-time guy, pay him like that. The Kawhi we saw for those nine games (slow, rusty but ultimately still a great scorer and defensive playmaker who has to sit out games during dense stretches), is still worth a lot of money. I'd go as far as to say that he'd worth the max, but I mean the regular max, not the DPE. I'd much rather the team be able to keep him for that contract that release him early.

  9. #34
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    Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.
    Maybe, but the other doctor told Kawhi to sit and keep sitting. Maybe he'll just tell him never to play again and the injury won't get worse.

  10. #35
    Realistic Spurs Fan Amuseddaysleeper's Avatar
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    He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

    You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this team.
    THIS

    You were handing out awful contract after awful contract and now of all players you're gonna lowball Kawhi?

  11. #36
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    I didn't see him shouldering a lot of load this season, maybe it's just me...
    And all we have to show for it is currently being in the wonderful position of basketball purgatory. A slightly above .500 team getting gentleman swept out of the first round.

    Cool.

  12. #37
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    THIS

    You were handing out awful contract after awful contract and now of all players you're gonna lowball Kawhi?
    Yeah. Bending over backwards for old, washed up scrubs like Mills and Gasol put you in a spot where you're going to look bad if you don't make Kawhi happy.

    The PATFO slurpers here justified those bad contracts with arguments like "paying Mills and Gasol is going to look good around the league because it shows how loyal the Spurs are to their guys and that they are willing to pay them to stay"....Sure.

    Now look at the flipside, chronic injury or not, Kawhi expects his money. If he doesn't get it, he might demand a trade. You're now in a position where Kawhi is gone, the overpaid scrubs are still here (cause "loyalty"), and you look incompetent around the league because of how you handled the entire situation.

  13. #38
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Now look at the flipside, chronic injury or not, Kawhi expects his money. If he doesn't get it, he might demand a trade. You're now in a position where Kawhi is gone, the overpaid scrubs are still here (cause "loyalty"), and you look incompetent around the league because of how you handled the entire situation.
    Or Kawhi gets traded for a decent haul, is a s of himself, Pau rolls off in 2019, and Patty is a slightly-overpaid starting guard. I mean sure, it's not the best scenario, but the Spurs don't look any smarter maxing out Kawhi if they think he'll never be the same. Again, we're talking about Kawhi making more in one season of the DPE max (2023-2024) than Mills would make over the life of his deal. The contracts aren't remotely comparable.

  14. #39
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    ^^^if patty is starting in 2019/20 then the spurs have bigger problems.

  15. #40
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    I'm a huge Kawhi fan, but something we don't know is how bad his injury is. The Spurs seem to say that he can play through it, but it's a degenerate injury that will only get worse over time. Sure he can play, but there will be a more dramatic decline over time. How good for how long? We don't know. All we know is he just missed an entire season.

    Kawhi's doctor says its an injury that requires rest and rehab and he will be 100%. But we have no evidence of that either. All we know is that he rehabbed and rested for months and then hinted at a return, and then didn't return and went to NY to avoid local reporters and his teammates. The fact that he has not made a public trade demand highlights to me he wants to get paid by the Spurs. But he's asking them to gamble and trust his doctor and pay millions of dollars with no hint that he is better.

    Spurs can call his bluff and not sign him to an extension this year. But there are a ton of risks for both sides. One one hand, Kawhi is totally healthy, but doesn't make 1st or 2nd all NBA so the Spurs lose leverage to resign. Or, if he's healthy and he plays like a superstar, then the Spurs can offer him the super max with no discount (and if his feelings are hurt, he can go elsewhere, but really, is he going to turn down a huge payday...I doubt it). If Kawhi plays his last year and he misses a ton of time from the same injury, then he'll have no trade value and teams will discount any offer to him or decide not to pursue him. Spurs get out of offering a bad contract, but for Kawhi's side, that the worst case scenario. Also, what if he tears an ACL mid-season next year and he only plays that last season? Then the Spurs have no idea what to offer him and the rest of the NBA will be lowballing him.

    There is a ton of risk on both sides. We can only nervously watch and see how this all plays out.

  16. #41
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    Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

    If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?

  17. #42
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    ^^^if patty is starting in 2019/20 then the spurs have bigger problems.
    Patty had a solid playoffs. I think he was overpaid, but it wasn't a franchise-crippling contract and there are teams that would trade for him, even if he is a little overpaid. But signing an injured Kawhi (degenerative injury) to a supermax will be a franchise-crippling injury that would catastrophically impact the team for years. Sure, we'd get lottery picks, but our cap situation would be horrendous and we would be lottery bound for years.

  18. #43
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    Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

    If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?
    Absolutely. But we won't know if he is 100% and based on missing the whole season, you can't assume he is or will be.

  19. #44
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.

  20. #45
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Truth bomb. And anyone who supports patfo lowballing kawhi.
    you and your feelers.

  21. #46
    Veteran RD2191's Avatar
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    Fukin cry about it

  22. #47
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Or Kawhi gets traded for a decent haul, is a s of himself, Pau rolls off in 2019, and Patty is a slightly-overpaid starting guard. I mean sure, it's not the best scenario, but the Spurs don't look any smarter maxing out Kawhi if they think he'll never be the same. Again, we're talking about Kawhi making more in one season of the DPE max (2023-2024) than Mills would make over the life of his deal. The contracts aren't remotely comparable.
    Wisdom can be refreshing.

  23. #48
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

    If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?
    If he were 100% healthy, why did he sit out 73 games? If he IS actually 100% healthy now, that begs the question: when? How long was he healthy and sitting?

    I'm just trading him at this point, getting what you can, and making this some other team's problem.

  24. #49
    Veteran offset formation's Avatar
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    Fukin cry about it
    Lol. I'm not the one that's going to throw a little tantrum should PATFO make a decision on KL's future based on what they **know** about his health.

    That's called making a ***rational*** decision, not an ***emotional*** decision.

  25. #50
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    What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.
    Well it depends on Kawhi’s medical records and what is the perceived diagnosis and treatment. Spurs are playing smart, like taking him off the trade market and showing signs they want to keep him. That helps Kawhi’s trade value and if they offer a max but not super max, it still projects that they think he’s worth it so if they do have to trade him, it’s not the stark conclusion that the Spurs think he’s not a superstar.

    but all this is wait and see. If Kawhi is healthy, his trade price will be high.

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