Cavs: LeBron may have just passed Jordan

[RD2191]

LeHype has made a career on beating up leastern conference trash, just stop it. He even had to form a superteam just to win 2 with the heat which was almost 1 if not for ray Allen's 3. Stop the hype tbh

[endrity]

lol 2008-2010 swept under the rug or does not exist?

Looking back, I think it's very hard though to argue that Kobe was the undisputed best player in the league during those years. Even if he was, his superiority was not much larger than that of his followers like LeBron's clearly is right now.

Let's not forget that LBJ was the back-to-back MVP in 2009-10 and no one would dispute that he didn't earn them. Kobe's 2008 trophy on the other hand was much more contested, and his 2006 season was probably better anyway. And while I know that I will seem a big homer here, but in terms of offensive efficiency you could pick any of those seasons and argue that Dirk was probably better at that point. The Mavs had an awful team for around two years as they went through a rebuild that added Marion, Butler, Hayward and ultimately Chandler so Dirk was pretty much in an island. But individually I have never seen Dirk play better than the 2009 playoffs, including 2006 and 2011. But no one remembers that year because of the team around him.

[Chris Fall]

LeBron is the best basketball player I’ve seen in my lifetime. I started following the NBA in the mid 80s. He’s the best, and there’s no debate. The arguments for Jordan revolve around the perfect Finals record and LeBron’s losses in the Finals along with the easier pathway through the Eastern Conference. But as has been often discussed on these boards, championships and post season success is more of a product of the team, not necessarily the individual player.

If we focus on the individual players. Ability, talent, skill, production, the discussion for LeBron isn’t even with Michael Jordan. It’s with Wilt and Kareem. LeBron is the most dominating, single individual basketball player this league has likely ever seen. And to that discussion, only Wilt (and I never watched Wilt) could enter the conversation when it comes to individual dominance.

[endrity]

LeBron is the best basketball player I’ve seen in my lifetime. I started following the NBA in the mid 80s. He’s the best, and there’s no debate. The arguments for Jordan revolve around the perfect Finals record and LeBron’s losses in the Finals along with the easier pathway through the Eastern Conference. But as has been often discussed on these boards, championships and post season success is more of a product of the team, not necessarily the individual player.

If we focus on the individual players. Ability, talent, skill, production, the discussion for LeBron isn’t even with Michael Jordan. It’s with Wilt and Kareem. LeBron is the most dominating, single individual basketball player this league has likely ever seen. And to that discussion, only Wilt (and I never watched Wilt) could enter the conversation when it comes to individual dominance.

That's not true. If you look at advanced stats that try to bring everything to one single number like PER, Win Shares, Win Shares /48min, MJ is still the absolute top. His efficiency during the first three peat breaks anything that Wilt, Kareem, and LBJ have achieved. And even if we get into the longevity argument, Wilt drops out immediately, Kareem was an effective but no where near MVP player at 35, and with LeBron I guess we'll seee.

But yeah, it's a myth that MJ didn't have the all around game that LBJ has. His peak is still better than LeBron's.

If you want to argue qualitatively rather than quan atively, MJ was a better scorer and just as much of an athletic freak. What he lacks in raw power he makes up in athleticism, coordination around the basket, and those mitten hands that allowed him to finish from anywhere close to the basket. And for all of LBJ's great blocks, MJ was decisively a better and more consistent defender too. He could and would absolutely shut down perimeter players like Kawhi does nowadays. LeBron has him in passing ability, but MJ's added selfishness never seemed to hurt his team. It's kind of the same argument in a s that we have with Dirk's midrange of Curry's 3-pointers - the are bad shots for everyone but great for them since they still make them at an unreal rate if they are left open.

MJ's selfishness might have set a bad example for the iso-game that followed around the league and for how Kobe tried to approach the game, but MJ was still good enough to make it effective for him and the team.

[da_suns_fan]

Theyre all great but very different players. You can see what their individual strengths were using basketball-refenence.com's total games finder:

https://www.basketball-reference.com...pgl_finder.cgi


The "Lebron" Game. 30 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists
==================================
1 LeBron James 210
2 Michael Jordan* 114
3 Larry Bird* 111
4 Russell Westbrook 99


The "Michael Jordan" Game: 40 points and 5 assists. More scoring but less in the other respective stats
================================================== ===============
1 Michael Jordan* 146
2 Kobe Bryant 104
3 LeBron James 83


Like I said, he's not the scorer the other two were, but he's the best all-around player.

[da_suns_fan]

This is interesting.

The "Magic Johnson" game. 20 points, 10 assists and 5 rebounds:
========================================
1 Magic Johnson* 285
2 LeBron James 199
3 Russell Westbrook 169
4 Chris Paul 115

[DMC]

This is interesting.

The "Magic Johnson" game. 20 points, 10 assists and 5 rebounds:
========================================
1 Magic Johnson* 285
2 LeBron James 199
3 Russell Westbrook 169
4 Chris Paul 115

All point guards except Lebron (who is a point forward most of the time)

Lebron's passing is other worldly. For a guy who can score at will, he has an uncanny ability to get the ball to open shooters and his court awareness/vision is second to none.

Westbrook doesn't count for stat comparisons since he's a stat padder by trade (this we know). At least the other 3 get most of their stats organically.

[da_suns_fan]

The "Shaq" game. 30 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks:
===================================

1 Shaquille O'Neal* 162
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* 145
3 Patrick Ewing* 97
4 David Robinson* 87
5 Tim Duncan 74

[da_suns_fan]

All point guards except Lebron (who is a point forward most of the time)

Lebron's passing is other worldly. For a guy who can score at will, he has an uncanny ability to get the ball to open shooters and his court awareness/vision is second to none.

Keep in mind how big Magic was too, though. Not as good of a passer as Magic, but better scorer and rebounder than magic.

[DMC]

The "Shaq" game. 30 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks:
===================================

1 Shaquille O'Neal* 162
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* 145
3 Patrick Ewing* 97
4 David Robinson* 87
5 Tim Duncan 74

The "Ring" game:
============
Celtics 17
Lakers 16
Bulls 6
Spurs 5
Suns - 0

[da_suns_fan]

Comparing him to other forwards. There's the "Charles Barkley" game: 25 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists
============================================
1 Charles Barkley* 130
2 Karl Malone* 113
3 Larry Bird* 109
4 LeBron James 100

He's not the rebounder that Barkley was but a better scorer and passer. Its likely Lebron will still move up the list, though.

[da_suns_fan]

The "Mailman" game. 20 points and 10 rebounds. Lebron's rebounding isnt on par with 4s but he's more of a wing player.
================================================== ============================

1 Karl Malone* 818
2 Shaquille O'Neal* 723
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 639
4 Tim Duncan 601
5 Charles Barkley* 567
6 Kevin Garnett 490
7 Patrick Ewing* 476
8 Moses Malone* 443
9 David Robinson* 427
10 Dirk Nowitzki 388
11 Dwight Howard 379
12 Larry Bird* 336
13 Chris Webber 336
14 LeBron James 320

[da_suns_fan]

20 points and 10 assists. Check out the gap between 1-2. And Chris Paul will definitely end up number 2:
================================================== ================
1 Magic Johnson* 341
2 Isiah Thomas* 230
3 Chris Paul 227
4 LeBron James 218
5 John Stockton* 208

[da_suns_fan]

Comparing him to other forwards. There's the "Charles Barkley" game: 25 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists
============================================
1 Charles Barkley* 130
2 Karl Malone* 113
3 Larry Bird* 109
4 LeBron James 100

He's not the rebounder that Barkley was but a better scorer and passer. Its likely Lebron will still move up the list, though.

Increase the assists by just 2 (25,12,7) and Lebron shoots up to the top. Again, best ever all-around player:
================================================== =================
1 LeBron James 170
2 Larry Bird* 113
3 Russell Westbrook 98
4 Michael Jordan* 68
5 Charles Barkley* 66

[Arcadian]

lol 2008-2010 swept under the rug or does not exist?

No, but I'm not sure how to label 2008-10. The Lakers-Celtics revival period?

[LkrFan]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.

Stats my ass. He has 5 stains on his resume. Jordan has nonePERIOD.

[Splits]

The "Ring" game:
============
Boston 17
LA 11
Chicago 6
San Antonio 5
Phoenix - 0

fixed

[daslicer]

Don't think he has passed Jordan or ever will unless he wins a few more les. He benefits from the type of hysteria you get from the media these days when it comes to recent success. Way back in 2010 after Kobe won his 5th le there was a lot of hype of Kobe at least being the second greatest player of all time or even an equal to Jordan and we saw how that died out a few years later. Most people now rank Kobe outside of the top 10 but to do it in 2010 you would have been call crazy by the media and casual fans. The hysteria of Lebron being the GOAT will die out in several years when he longer is able to go back to the finals. By then people will give an honest assessment of his career. Obviously he will still be a top 10 player after his career is over but not the GOAT.

[phxspurfan]

lEastern Conference
needing 7 games to win in the first round and against a Celtics team with a rookie as their leader and without both of their (marginal) All Stars
uncoachable, has ran out like 5 coaches
signature move is taking 17 steps down the lane and bowling guys over like it's football
if actually played football would be out with a concussion in a week
self proclaimed King who has a losing record in the games that count the most
not even better than Duncan/Shaq/Kobe, each would take/took turns bukkakeing him

[endrity]

Don't think he has passed Jordan or ever will unless he wins a few more les. He benefits from the type of hysteria you get from the media these days when it comes to recent success. Way back in 2010 after Kobe won his 5th le there was a lot of hype of Kobe at least being the second greatest player of all time or even an equal to Jordan and we saw how that died out a few years later. Most people now rank Kobe outside of the top 10 but to do it in 2010 you would have been call crazy by the media and casual fans. The hysteria of Lebron being the GOAT will die out in several years when he longer is able to go back to the finals. By then people will give an honest assessment of his career. Obviously he will still be a top 10 player after his career is over but not the GOAT.

I am one of the people that was always dumbfounded by the ridiculous overrating that Kobe underwent after his 5th le and even with all the hype I could not see how he ranked as anything beyond a borderline Top 10 player, let alone more.

But LeBron is truly different. He is putting a massive resume, that even if he never hits the heights of MJ (and I think the 2016 le was a ridiculous high), the totality of his career will be such that at the very least he deserves a place at the table. If you win 4 MVPs, and arguably deserved at least 1-2 more, you know you are truly great. Kobe got a mercy trophy in 2008, and had an equal argument with Dirk and Nash for 06, and that is it.

[LkrFan]

lEastern Conference
needing 7 games to win in the first round and against a Celtics team with a rookie as their leader and without both of their (marginal) All Stars
uncoachable, has ran out like 5 coaches
signature move is taking 17 steps down the lane and bowling guys over like it's football
if actually played football would be out with a concussion in a week
self proclaimed King who has a losing record in the games that count the most
not even better than Duncan/Shaq/Kobe, each would take/took turns bukkakeing him

[Mitch]

closest Bron gets to Jordan is being his fart sniffer

[Galileo]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

[Clipper Nation]

closest Bron gets to Jordan is being his fart sniffer

LeGOAT already lapped DK long ago. DK never even caught up to Kareem, Wilt or Russell, tbh - even with MVPippen carrying him most of the way, Stern changing the rules for him, refs giving him all the calls, playing against plumbers, etc.

[Mitch]

LeGOAT already lapped DK long ago. DK never even caught up to Kareem, Wilt or Russell, tbh - even with MVPippen carrying him most of the way, Stern changing the rules for him, refs giving him all the calls, playing against plumbers, etc.

What about dk vs aids?