*** Official Israel vs Hamas war #13783478343 thread ***

[Winehole23]

I don't think they will be destroyed as an ideology. The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades have relied on suicide bombings and random result rocket fire into populated areas. Their openly stated goal is the eradication of all Jews and the removal of the state of Israel. It seems now the gloves are off.

Genocide and ethnic cleansing aren't valid counterterrorism tactics. If I kill your wife, that doesn't justify you killing my kids and burning down my whole neighborhood, even though it might be an understandable psychological reaction..

[Winehole23]

Kill the terrorists, sure.

Starve the whole population, bomb them wantonly and knock down all their houses?

Seems wildly disproportionate, to put it mildly.

[Tyronn Lue]

Genocide and ethnic cleansing aren't valid counterterrorism tactics. If I kill your wife, that doesn't justify you killing my kids and burning down my whole neighborhood, even though it might be an understandable psychological reaction..

The bolded begs the question. You've not established genocide is being carried out or even attempted. Your attempt to illustrate it had a quote that mentioned ethnic cleansing, but not genocide.

That's twice you've used the bad "kill your wife" analogy. If you killed my hypothetical wife I'd call the cops. If you barricaded yourself into a room with your family and fired rounds at the cops, you'd be putting the lives of your family in danger. Do you think it would be the fault of the cops if your family died in the crossfire?

[Tyronn Lue]

Kill the terrorists, sure.

Starve the whole population, bomb them wantonly and knock down all their houses?

Seems wildly disproportionate, to put it mildly.

There's no guarantee of symmetry when you commit heinous acts like Hamas did, none at all. They attacked then ran back into hiding within the civilian population. It was them, not Israel, who made that decision.

[Tyronn Lue]

Sein Fein is a fairly close analogy imo.

No it's not. Even so you invoked Nelson Mandela. Why do that if you know it's not a relevant comparison? Al Qaeda are called terrorists, just as is ISIL and Boko Haram. Should the world wait until they come to the bargaining table?

[Winehole23]

No it's not. Even so you invoked Nelson Mandela. Why do that if you know it's not a relevant comparison? Al Qaeda are called terrorists, just as is ISIL and Boko Haram. Should the world wait until they come to the bargaining table?

Sein Fein resisted English occupation terroristically and got a seat at the bargaining table when it became clear there was no military solution. I'm not saying that should happen, nor that it is likely, nor that people should wait for it, but it could happen.

[Winehole23]

The bolded begs the question. You've not established genocide is being carried out or even attempted. Your attempt to illustrate it had a quote that mentioned ethnic cleansing, but not genocide.

I think the conditions of Geneva Article 2 have already been met. I can tick them off for you or you can read for yourself, I posted them upstream. Imho Bibi's reference to Samuel 1, comparing Palestinians to the Amalekites and the IDF guy saying "there are no innocents in Gaza" pretty much establish genocidal intent, taken together with other statements by officialdom and the wanton collective punishment of noncombatants.

As for ethnic cleansing, the intent is abundantly clear, Israel is begging Arab countries to take the Palestinians with no luck so far. All that is lacking is the execution. We'll see on that count.

That's twice you've used the bad "kill your wife" analogy. If you killed my hypothetical wife I'd call the cops. If you barricaded yourself into a room with your family and fired rounds at the cops, you'd be putting the lives of your family in danger. Do you think it would be the fault of the cops if your family died in the crossfire?

I was trying to make a point about proportionality, not to make a precise analogy. No doubt there are better ones. Not sure yours is so great either. The IDF killing 10,000 children and babies because Hamas is or might be nearby rings false. Gaza isn't a house with a barricaded shooter. Hamas may be well hidden in Gaza, but Gaza isn't a house. It's an occupied territory with ~2.3 million people. Scale matters.

[Winehole23]

There's no guarantee of symmetry when you commit heinous acts like Hamas did, none at all. They attacked then ran back into hiding within the civilian population. It was them, not Israel, who made that decision.

In passing, I'll point out again that the Hamas operation was significantly military in nature, they ing pinned down the IDF for like half a day, and about 1/4 of the people killed were IDF and reservists. Hamas didn't go in there with the sole aim of killing civilians, they took on the military too, and frankly pantsed them. From a combination of hubris and inep ude, the IDF was unready. They were too busy cracking heads in the West Bank and protecting violent settlers.

Also , it was sabbath and a religious holiday, so many of them took the day off, even though there was available intelligence indicating a proximate attack.

[Winehole23]

One IDF base was evacuated and they left their dead behind.

[Tyronn Lue]

Sein Fein resisted English occupation terroristically and got a seat at the bargaining table when it became clear there was no military solution. I'm not saying that should happen, nor that it is likely, nor that people should wait for it, but it could happen.

Sinn Fein wasn't a sole governing body. There was a solution proposed that didn't include the deaths of the entire country. Hamas doesn't have a negotiation goal, they will continue to try to eliminate the state of Israel. They are not looking for a seat at any table, they've had that option for decades. At some point you have to admit there's no compromise with them.

I think the conditions of Geneva Article 2 have already been met. I can tick them off for you or you can read for yourself, I posted them upstream. Imho Bibi's reference to Samuel 1, comparing Palestinians to the Amalekites and the IDF guy saying "there are no innocents in Gaza" pretty much establish genocidal intent, taken together with other statements by officialdom and the wanton collective punishment of noncombatants.

I was trying to make a point about proportionality, not to make a precise analogy. No doubt there are better ones. Not sure yours is so great either. The IDF killing 10,000 children and babies because Hamas is or might be nearby rings false.

It's simple actually. Hamas made a choice and they are still making a choice, and their people are paying the price for it. You want the IDF to show mercy, Hamas did not show any mercy. Let's start there instead of skipping over it.

In passing, I'll point out again that the Hamas operation was significantly military in nature, they ing pinned down the IDF for like half a day, and about 1/4 of the people killed were IDF and reservists. Hamas didn't go in there with the sole aim of killing civilians, they took on the military too, and frankly pantsed them. From a combination of hubris and inep ude, the IDF was unready. They were too busy cracking heads in the West Bank and protecting violent settlers.

Also , it was sabbath and a religious holiday, so many of them took the day off, even though there was available intelligence indicating a proximate attack.

So when Hamas enters and kills scores of civilians, it's a military action and the IDF were pantsed. When the IDF is bombing Gaza back into the Jesus era, it's genocide. Odd since IDF didn't go there with the sole aim of killing civilians. They took on the military too and frankly unpantsed them.

[Winehole23]

Sinn Fein wasn't a governing body. There was a solution proposed that didn't include the deaths of the entire country. Hamas doesn't have a negotiation goal, they will continue to try to eliminate the state of Israel. They are not looking for a seat at any table, they've had that option for decades. At some point you have to admit there's no compromise with them.
It's simple actually. Hamas made a choice and they are still making a choice, and their people are paying the price for it. You want the IDF to show mercy, Hamas did not show any mercy. Let's start there instead of skipping over it.

So when Hamas enters and kills scores of civilians, it's a military action and the IDF were pantsed. When the IDF is bombing Gaza back into the Jesus era, it's genocide. Odd since IDF didn't go there with the sole aim of killing civilians. They took on the military too and frankly unpantsed them.

Eh, now you're talking about me. No matter.

Israel is losing strategically. They're sating the bloodlust of the nation while shooting themselves in the foot. If they fail to eliminate Hamas, they'll be stuck as genocidaires.

This is a likely outcome, imho.

[Tyronn Lue]

One IDF base was evacuated and they left their dead behind.

Is this an attempt a scoreboarding for Hamas?

[Winehole23]

Is this an attempt a scoreboarding for Hamas?

No, it underscores Israel's failure of responsibility to defend itself.

[Tyronn Lue]

Eh, now you're talking about me. No matter.

Israel is losing strategically. They're sating the bloodlust of the nation while shooting themselves in the foot. If they fail to eliminate Hamas, they'll be stuck as genocidaires.

This is a likely outcome, imho.

If you need to use bad analogies and poor comparisons along with manufactured death tolls, what's your message? Is it that the killing needs to stop? Because I agree. That message can be said without stumping for Hamas. I'd think you're Palestinian by your apparent bias here. There's no need to ignore the acts committed by Hamas in order to say innocent lives are being lost.

Israel will be business as usual when the dust settles, because they are a nuclear nation with a powerful ally. I'd be surprised if anything is done about any of it. Already there's little information about the daily goings on there.

[Winehole23]

To think that Hamas's raison d'etre is the elimination of Israel, and that there is no possibility Hamas could try to invade and kill people is dissonant.

[Tyronn Lue]

To think that Hamas's raison d'etre is the elimination of Israel, and that there is no possibility Hamas could try to invade and kill people is dissonant.

Thus why the IDF thinks total elimination of Hamas is necessary. It seems you understand this.

[Winehole23]

If you need to use bad analogies and poor comparisons along with manufactured death tolls, what's your message? Is it that the killing needs to stop? Because I agree. That message can be said without stumping for Hamas. I'd think you're Palestinian by your apparent bias here. There's no need to ignore the acts committed by Hamas in order to say innocent lives are being lost.

I'm not stumping for Hamas nor ignoring Hamas. I called their attack a bestial pogrom. I said they deserve to face war crimes accountability. You just don't like me criticizing Israel, it seems. And that's fine.

I got the same kind of grief when I criticized the Iraq invasion.

[Winehole23]

Have you read Geneva Article 2? Where has Israel come up short?

[Winehole23]

Thus why the IDF thinks total elimination of Hamas is necessary. It seems you understand this.

Yeah, but I don't think they're justified in killing Gazans wholesale to do it. I guess we differ on this.

[Tyronn Lue]

I'm not stumping for Hamas nor ignoring Hamas.

You say this as if it's true when in fact you've done just that. You said it's not their fault, before saying it's their fault.

I called their attack a bestial pogrom. You just don't like me criticizing Israel, it seems. And that's fine.

Israel needs to be criticized. They are responsible for the safety of their citizens and they dropped the ball. I don't agree with how you dismissed the "bestial pogrom" as if it was done by a small group of fringe activists instead of the governing body of the Palestinians.

I got the same kind of grief when I criticized the Iraq invasion.

The underdog championing syndrome can lead someone to ignore facts. There's no reason to invoke Iraq here though, just as there's no reason to drag Sinn Fein or Mandela into it. Just the facts of this particular event are enough.

[Winehole23]

Israel gets to hate Palestinians, steal their land, starve, kill and oppress them, but Palestinians don't get to hate them back.

[Tyronn Lue]

Have you read Geneva Article 2? Where has Israel come up short?

Ask that question of both parties, then we have a conversation.

[Tyronn Lue]

Israel gets to hate Palestinians, steal their land, starve, kill and oppress them, but Palestinians don't get to hate them back.

inshallah.

[Tyronn Lue]

Either way Happy New Year Winehole23. I hope the conflict finds a more peaceful resolution sooner than later.

[Winehole23]

You say this as if it's true when in fact you've done just that. You said it's not their fault, before saying it's their fault.

I thought you accepted my clarification that Hamas is responsible for the fact of retaliation but not the manner. It's OK if you've changed your mind.

Israel needs to be criticized. They are responsible for the safety of their citizens and they dropped the ball. I don't agree with how you dismissed the "bestial pogrom" as if it was done by a small group of fringe activists instead of the governing body of the Palestinians.

No, I assigned responsibility to Hamas. I didn't call them a fringe group. Calling Oct 7th a bestial pogrom isn't minimizing, it's strong --and fully intended -- derogatory language.

IThe underdog championing syndrome can lead someone to ignore facts. There's no reason to invoke Iraq here though, just as there's no reason to drag Sinn Fein or Mandela into it. Just the facts of this particular event are enough.

Ok, does Israel's response satisfy the elements of Geneva 2? Seems pretty clear cut to me. According to the treaty definition, only one of these conditions need be present. Seems to me all but (e) are already in evidence.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as sucha) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...20Genocide.pdf