Piston Fans, do you like Saunders as your coach?
Piston Fans, do you like Saunders as your coach?
He's an idiot
He opened up the offense, he's a genius! We're not defending like we used to, it's all Flip's fault!
Fickle fans = Flip gets too much blame/credit.
No, he's awful
If i listed reasons why i dislike him, i'd probably be here all day.
I could care less about out "new and improved 3-point shooting, jumpshooting offense"
He gets an F in all the areas of coaching that matter.
i hated the way we played most of the season even though we were "winning"
I can't stand Flip. He didn't do anything to 'open up' the offense. He doesn't even really coach the team. He just paces back and forth in front of the bench now and then. And his face and head are constantly twitching.
Chauncey is the closest we have to an actual coach at the moment.
Just because Larry Brown isn't around to yell and scream when the players push the ball up the court doeasn't mean that Flip opened up the offense.
If he really was an offensive genius, he might've been able to come up with something better than an isolation play for Chauncey at the end of those close games in the playoffs.
Spurs fans felt pain for you when Flip was hired. He was a regular WC playoff whipping boy for the big dogs.
Spurstalk pathology: if we win in the regular season, it's fools gold. If someone else beats us, we have no chance to beat them in the playoffs.
"A coach can't change people," Gregg Popovich said before the Spurs obliterated the Nets on New Year's Eve. "They are who they are. No matter what team you're talking about, a coach can be observant and try to put his team in situations both on and off the court where some of that can develop, some of the camaraderie sorts of things. But you can't change people."
As was said early: PLAYER ACCOUNTABILITY!
As fans we have become so attached to these players that we believe that they can do no wrong. And when things do go astray, it can't possibly be their fault, so it must be Prick/LB/Flip's fault.
Pistons vs. Spurs
It's not that I think the players can do no wrong.
I just don't think Flip really did what a coach should do. If I'm not mistaken, it usually is the head coach that draws up the play on the dry-erase board during time-outs, isn't it? It's usually up to him to decide which play to attempt, isn't it?
There are just things that coaches are expected to be responsible for and I don't think Flip fulfilled that responsibility very well.
No, I wasn't in the huddle, so obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about. Give me a break.
Drawing up plays in the huddle is typically the responsibility of the coach. Then when I see them come out of the huddle and purposely run an isolation play for Chauncey, in which the other 4 guys just spread the floor and stand virtually still, I think it's fair to assume that is what Flip drew up for them.
Now, if Flip did draw up an absolutely genius play and the players ignored him and Chauncey just said, "Get me the ball and get out of my way," then obviously the fate of that game is Chauncey's fault. Although, I doubt that was what happened.
However, if that was the case, then Flip isn't doing his job in really coaching and motivating the team to work together.
Coach Riley could've come up with the silliest 8th grade level play, drawn it up in a huddle and Shaq, Wade and Zo would've gone out on the floor and done it. And it probably would've been a better play than Flip would choose.
But if I had to judge him on last season, I have any number of complaints:
- Too concept oriented: My major complaint with Flip Saunders is that he never saw Ben Wallace outside the role he laid out for the center in his playbook. He was too interested in running his system than evaluating his personnel. He missed so many opportunities to exploit the strengths of his players because it meant he would have to adjust 90% of his playbook.
- This ties into concept-oriented versus evaluating matchups and personnel - Playoff Adjustments - this man was predictable and that is what ultimately led to the Pistons elimination and criticism from the players.
- His expectations were too low: I remember after they beat the Bucks that he felt proverbaly winded by the lack of respect of the Pistons winning the first-round series when he came from Minnesota where it took them 10 years to reach the second round. To paraphrase Ben Wallace and Joe Dumars after the Pistons second 50-win season and 2nd-straight Division title, but on the brink of elimination to the Orlando Magic - 'they can think they had a successful season, but we didn't.'
This would be less scathing if it weren't the second-straight season that he crash-landed a Championship-caliber team.
- Success spoiled him: I had this sense that if the Pistons won the game, no adjustments were made afterwards. Brown was constantly thinking, adding more wrinkles, and in a lot of ways it saved close playoff games because his constant tinkering created one open shot at the end, one extra weapon in a series. He strikes me as a person who learns more from failure than success and that is a dangerous game with a Championship contender. He needs an outside motivation--like a competitive race for the number one seed--in order to emphasize strategy and preparation.
I think this stems from never playing in the league and never studying under a coach that had. Rick Carlisle had KC Jones, Red Auerbach, Bill Fitch, and Chuck Daly to brighten him up and he actually played in the pros. Larry Brown was coached by Dean Smith and Pete Newill. Doug Collins played for Chuck Daly and Billy Cunningham. Daly's contemporaries included Hubie Brown and Billy Cunningham. This guy is from the University of Minnesota and coached in the pros, but he has had to learn in every situation he has been in.
In short - he strategizes 2-dimensionally. He has the concepts down, but when it doesn't work, it takes him a long time to figure out why it doesn't.
Who knows? Perhaps this is just because he was playing catchup with this cast of characters that have been together for so long. All I know is that he needs to do a better job coaching next season. After losses, after big nights from him players, and by demanding perfection from the players even when it is not needed.
Pistons basketball is about consistency over everything else. It is about holding the Detroit Pistons to a standard higher than any other team they play. Brown fit that mold and so did Daly and Collins. If the Pistons remain a stationary target, teams will beat them handedly. They are not blessed with absolute talent that out-ranks every other team. They are talented, but their strength is with out-thinking their opponents, preaparing for them, before they even step out onto the court.
It did not look like the team prepared to win a game after the mid-way point of the season.
Last edited by Darrin; 08-23-2006 at 11:17 PM.
Flip isn't a bad coach - just a soft one. He's a player's coach, and he and Chauncey are very close, which would imply he'd let his PG do whatever the hell he wanted when he wanted.
Ben wasn't a good fit for the system, because Flip's system is offense oriented - how many times have we seen Ben jack up an ill-advised jumper that he'd miss? Joe Dumars likely already knew this when he hired Flip. He also sided with his coach during that debacle we called a negotiation with Ben.
If adjustments had been made along the way, the Pistons might have stayed a step ahead.
How? Even you have to admit Ben's biggest weakness is on offense; they couldn't just keep throwing alley-oops for him all day. I'm not saying Flip couldn't have handled his relationship with Ben better, but the same could be said of Ben. No matter how you look at it, both of them were at fault. You like Ben. fine, i like him too, but I'm not going to completely absolve him of all blame because of it. I just think Flip got the short end of the stick on this. Everyone, even the media seemed to turn a blind eye to the accountability of the players, which isn't exactly fair.
btw, I'm not trying to pick a fight, and no matter how much you hate Flip it doesn't mean all pistons fans feel the way you do, so don't jump on me because I don't agree with you.
I like Ben Wallace and I'm the first to admit it openly. But two other coaches managed to find ways of Ben Wallace contributing on the offensive end. Other coaches had more active imaginations of how to use Wallace's footspeed help-side than his strength one-on-one.
Imagine if Rip Hamilton were asked to hide himself defensively for the entire season, and suddenly in the postseason, he was expected to defend Lebron James. That is essentially what the Pistons did to Wallace. He had two games--one of them inconsequential--between Mid February and the end of his Pistons career of over 6 shot attempts. He averaged 9 shots a game under Larry Brown - a coach that took the Pistons to two NBA Finals and won a Championship.
Decoy plays were installed where Wallace would set picks for Hamilton, turn to the hoop, and catch an alley-oop. All of Flip's Alley-oops were straight-forward. Rip would drive right of the lane, and throw it up top as Ben Wallace came down the lane. As Rip would drive right, players began fouling Ben Wallace because they knew he would get the ball.
Ben Wallace's limits offensively did involved some strategic plays. But that game-planning created high-percentage shots for Wallace that not only caused the Pistons to score, but it also made him feel more involved in the game. When he felt more involved, he had a larger impact.
Because the Pistons could not post him up without running some decoy action that would've caused Saunders to abandon the flex offense because of 1-4 isolation plays for Wallace, he was rendered ineffective and unproductive on both ends of the floor.
One thing I respected about Carlisle is that he did a great job of hiding players weaknesses and emphasizing their strengths. It is how Mike Curry remained a starter at age 35. It is how Cliff Robinson led the team in minutes both of his seasons in Detroit. It is how Jerry Stackhouse and Corliss Williamson had career seasons under him.
Among the things I respect in Brown is that he understood the psychological impact on Ben Wallace by getting him touches. He understood the psychology of pounding players in practices and blowouts so that there came a time when he no longer had to say a word. In the words of Rip Hamilton "I still here him yelling at me as a run down the floor. 'Rip you can always get yours, but be more well-rounded. Get everyone involved.'" He understood that winning a Championship was a marathon, not a sprint and that showing the entire hand throughout the course of a season would be to this team's disadvantage in the playoffs.
Saunders showed none of those qualities last season. He showed that he could draw up a playbook and manage minutes. Those are skills meant for assistant coaches, not the head coach. He didn't show a capacity to motivate players. He didn't show a capacity to keep players ready that were not playing consistent minutes. There were voices in the locker room, of descent, long before the postseason. Read some of Carlos Delfino's comments about 'don't talk to me' in December.
I have 5 years worth of watching Ben Wallace and one year of watching Flip Saunders. And the Ben Wallace I saw under Saunders was deeply frustrated with the happenings on the court.
I'm not that familiar with Carlisle, so I can't comment on that. LB - great coach, not so great guy. Flip - nice guy, subpar/good/bad coach depending on opinion. Everyone's entitled to an opinion; that's mine, and you've got yours. Just to be clear, I don't like Flip all that much either, I just don't wanna condemn him because I don't like him.
In any case, this whole debate will be over soon enough. If the team sucks next season Flip is gonna be gone, with Terry Porter likely being his replacement. If not, he's probably still gonna be gone, and Detroit will have its fourth coach in six years.
I like Flip...Strikes me as a class guy...Of course, during the play-offs... I reserve the right to make fun of him...
Flip played that suckass dude Evans in key times during the playoffs. Later, players complained that Evans was a spy for Flip. Flips Saunders sucks.
Yes, Darrin. Much more detailed and eloquent than what I had posted. And I agree 100%.
Well, according to the story in this link, Flip feels the problem he didn't impose enough of his Flipness on the team last year. So get ready for more Transition to Minnesota II.
Hmmm. Team makes it to the Finals two straight years before you came; you show up and they flame out in the playoffs? Yep, clearly the solution is to copy more from your previous blueprints for success.
2002-03: 50-32 - Central Division Champions, 1st Conference Finals Appearance in 12 years. Won a playoff series over Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady.
2003-04: 54-28 - First NBA Championship in 14 years. Won playoff series over Michael Redd, Jermaine O'Neal, Jason Kidd, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kobe Bryant.
2004-05: 54-28 - Central Division Champions, Eastern Conference Champions. Won playoff series over Allen Iverson, Jermaine O'Neal, Shaquille O'Neal, and Dwyane Wade.
Man-to-man sure as hell worked for four seasons. I have yet to see a team that plays zone win a NBA Championship.
This guy is a little bitch. 'Adapt or Die.' How about 'I want to change things and I plan on using last year's failure to do so.'
This guy is a little bitch. [/QUOTE]
64-28 means he doesn't fit that description. We got beat by a better team and very well may have lost to the same team a year before if it weren't for the Wade injury.
Would that have made LB a "little bitch"?
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