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  1. #226
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    i would do this-

    1/ create a "ref academy", an independent organism that trains, certifies, ranks AND reprimands refs. keep stu and nunn as far away from this organism as possible. The Nba pays the academy a lump sum for their service (say 20M a season), and the academy handles all ref related matters, from transport to salary negotiation.

    2/ establish an "acceptable margin of error"- lets say 15 mistakes a game.

    3/ give bonuses to refs when they make less mistakes, fine them for when they make more mistakes than the average


    really, any system that promotes accountability and transparency will do. its absurd how much the league protects these guys.

  2. #227
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    i would do this-

    1/ create a "ref academy", an independent organism that trains, certifies, ranks AND reprimands refs. keep stu and nunn as far away from this organism as possible. The Nba pays the academy a lump sum for their service (say 20M a season), and the academy handles all ref related matters, from transport to salary negotiation.

    2/ establish an "acceptable margin of error"- lets say 15 mistakes a game.

    3/ give bonuses to refs when they make less mistakes, fine them for when they make more mistakes than the average


    really, any system that promotes accountability and transparency will do. its absurd how much the league protects these guys.
    Agree with this totally. For me Reffing should be a full time job all year around. During the off season they should be training, studying tape, staying in shape etc.

    And they should be managed by an independent firm and graded as stated above.

    There is way too much good old boyism going on with the refs. I'm not suggesting that you can't be old and referee. However, if you can't get back fast enough to see a play and you make an "anticipation call" only because you can't believe the play can't be made without fouling........you might be to old or out of shape. That happens a lot the....."phantom call"

    I mean how can i take a referre seriously when he is in a foot Race with the Rotund Charles Barkley at halftime??????? How old is Buvetta anyway, 70?

  3. #228
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Most would agree the refs overall are awful whether you do or not.

    But if you are going to keep the awful refs, just having them assigned randomly to playoff games using a random number generator or lottery ping pong ball system would eliminate 95% of the conspiracy theories.

    It is comical to see Stern holding on to his control of the officiating assignments like it is the Holy Grail. Without it, the league might actually have games with random outcomes where the best team might win a majority of the time, wouldn't want to risk that!
    This post is full of so much misinformation that I'm not even sure where to begin.

    1. You expect perfection from officials -- perfection is not achievable. There is a huge difference between an official who misses a call here or there and an official who is knowingly directing calls in an attempt to affect the outcome of a game. It's also extraordinarily easy to sit back with the benefit of replays and criticize calls that were made incorrectly. I suggest to you that even with that benefit, the vast majority of NBA officials get calls right at alarmingly high rates, given the nature of the game that they're called upon to officiate. More than that, the people who know the game best generally agree that the men who call NBA games are mostly very good officials. Pardon me for taking their word over yours. Actually, don't.

    2. I'm proposing that referees who are shown to be "awful" be fired. I'm not sure how that could really be controversial. I also agree that evaluation of the officials should be a matter that is, in some form or another, farmed out to some objective neutral.

    3. You still truly have no idea how officials are assigned to playoff games, which I would argue demonstrates the ignorance that your criticisms are bottomed upon. Study it a little bit (it doesn't take much) and it becomes relatively easy to figure out how officials are assigned to playoff games -- having undertaken that effort, I can assure you that officiating assignments aren't just random things. There is a very orderly process in place. In the last 5 years, having studied those assignments closely, I can assure you that there has been utter predictability in terms of officiating assignments in the playoffs, not the sort of randomness that you propose. It has been so predictable, in fact, that I have been able to give relatively accurate predictions about officiating assignments for Spurs games over the last 3 playoff runs -- particularly as each series has progressed. I'll be happy to point you to evidence of that if you doubt me.

    I realize you'll not bother to respond to any of this because: (1) you don't have any sort of actual means to refute my points; and (2) none of it comports with your nonsensical and hypocritical conspiracy theories. Nevertheless, consider this my universal retort to any of your unprincipled blathering. I'll respond to your silliness as I see fit.

  4. #229
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    How quickly we forget history in the NBA.

    HISTORY LESSON 1

    In the 50s to 70s, almost every series went the full seven games. In those days the refs were paid by the game, ergo it was in their financial interest to see every series go the distance.

    It was also in the interest of struggling team owners and that included virtually every team outside Boston, Lakers and maybe Philadelphia, to have more games with more revenue.

    There were many series where bad teams carried the favorites to the seventh game. Perhaps it was luck and pluck---perhaps it was something else. There were enough to make the survival of the league as anything but Wrestlemania with a Ball very iffy.

    You can talk all you want to about the honesty of refs in those days---and that owners weren't needy or greedy--, but the cynical criticism by sportswriters and fans threatened to kill the golden TV goose just as the NBA started to pickup steam as a legitimate national sport.

    The reaction of the league to the criticism was to change the payscale of the refs in the playoffs so that the number of games didn't matter. Why would they do that if there wasn't a shameful perception that something was wrong. Some of those refs are still in the game and are called the 'best in the business."

  5. #230
    Veteran temujin's Avatar
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    How quickly we forget history in the NBA.

    HISTORY LESSON 1

    In the 50s to 70s, almost every series went the full seven games. In those days the refs were paid by the game, ergo it was in their financial interest to see every series go the distance.

    It was also in the interest of struggling team owners and that included virtually every team outside Boston, Lakers and maybe Philadelphia, to have more games with more revenue.

    There were many series where bad teams carried the favorites to the seventh game. Perhaps it was luck and pluck---perhaps it was something else. There were enough to make the survival of the league as anything but Wrestlemania with a Ball very iffy.

    You can talk all you want to about the honesty of refs in those days---and that owners weren't needy or greedy--, but the cynical criticism by sportswriters and fans threatened to kill the golden TV goose just as the NBA started to pickup steam as a legitimate national sport.

    The reaction of the league to the criticism was to change the payscale of the refs in the playoffs so that the number of games didn't matter. Why would they do that if there wasn't a shameful perception that something was wrong. Some of those refs are still in the game and are called the 'best in the business."

  6. #231
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    This post is full of so much misinformation that I'm not even sure where to begin.

    1. You expect perfection from officials -- perfection is not achievable. There is a huge difference between an official who misses a call here or there and an official who is knowingly directing calls in an attempt to affect the outcome of a game. It's also extraordinarily easy to sit back with the benefit of replays and criticize calls that were made incorrectly. I suggest to you that even with that benefit, the vast majority of NBA officials get calls right at alarmingly high rates, given the nature of the game that they're called upon to officiate. More than that, the people who know the game best generally agree that the men who call NBA games are mostly very good officials. Pardon me for taking their word over yours. Actually, don't.

    2. I'm proposing that referees who are shown to be "awful" be fired. I'm not sure how that could really be controversial. I also agree that evaluation of the officials should be a matter that is, in some form or another, farmed out to some objective neutral.

    3. You still truly have no idea how officials are assigned to playoff games, which I would argue demonstrates the ignorance that your criticisms are bottomed upon. Study it a little bit (it doesn't take much) and it becomes relatively easy to figure out how officials are assigned to playoff games -- having undertaken that effort, I can assure you that officiating assignments aren't just random things. There is a very orderly process in place. In the last 5 years, having studied those assignments closely, I can assure you that there has been utter predictability in terms of officiating assignments in the playoffs, not the sort of randomness that you propose. It has been so predictable, in fact, that I have been able to give relatively accurate predictions about officiating assignments for Spurs games over the last 3 playoff runs -- particularly as each series has progressed. I'll be happy to point you to evidence of that if you doubt me.

    I realize you'll not bother to respond to any of this because: (1) you don't have any sort of actual means to refute my points; and (2) none of it comports with your nonsensical and hypocritical conspiracy theories. Nevertheless, consider this my universal retort to any of your unprincipled blathering. I'll respond to your silliness as I see fit.
    You simpleton.

    I am saying the utter predictability of officiating assignments IS the problem, it would be better if the officials were all randomly assigned.

    If you don't have confidence in your entire group of officials to the point where you trust them to officiate a playoff game, why have them?

    And stop patting yourself on the back about being able to pick the officials, I correctly picked two of the three officials (Javie and Washington) for Game 4 in advance and have correctly predicted who would be assigned many times.

    Not only are you rude, but your reading comprehension is subpar also. Must be that Texas public school education rearing it's ugly head again.

    My advice? Read and try and memorize every single one of my brilliant posts. Let those be the basis for your basketball knowledge base and try and build from there. But first try and understand my point, the very fact that the "officials" can be predicted in advance of the games is 90% of the problem.

    Assign the officials randomly and no one can legitimately claim conspiracy and the problem melts away. Is that too confusing Tex? Go milk a cow or castrate a steer or something you dumb ing hick.

  7. #232
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    You simpleton.

    I am saying the utter predictability of officiating assignments IS the problem, it would be better if the officials were all randomly assigned.

    If you don't have confidence in your entire group of officials to the point where you trust them to officiate a playoff game, why have them?

    And stop patting yourself on the back about being able to pick the officials, I correctly picked two of the three officials (Javie and Washington) for Game 4 in advance and have correctly predicted who would be assigned many times.

    Not only are you rude, but your reading comprehension is subpar also. Must be that Texas public school education rearing it's ugly head again.

    My advice? Read and try and memorize every single one of my brilliant posts. Let those be the basis for your basketball knowledge base and try and build from there. But first try and understand my point, the very fact that the "officials" can be predicted in advance of the games is 90% of the problem.

    Assign the officials randomly and no one can legitimately claim conspiracy and the problem melts away. Is that too confusing Tex? Go milk a cow or castrate a steer or something you dumb ing hick.
    That's great, but what happens when the same ref is selected on back to back games?

  8. #233
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    That's great, but what happens when the same ref is selected on back to back games?
    OK, so you take out the three ping pong balls corresponding to the refs from the previous game.

    Bottom line, there is no logical reason not to assign officials randomly to games if you aren't trying to manipulate the games.

    Certainly the awful officiating we have seen throughout the playoffs could not be any worse with any of the other NBA refs calling the games.

  9. #234
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    How quick we forget in the NBA---History Lesson Part II.

    Only a few of us oldtimers can remember that the NBA has had serious allegations about questionable practices since the 50s. (See History Lesson I on page 9)

    Why is this true of this league, but not other national sports leagues?. You don't find people questioning whether the NFL or MLB is fixed on a regular basis for 50 years.

    Here's more history: The rivalry between the old ABA and NBA was fierce. There was only so much money in the sports pot and the NBA, after decades of sucking hind to the NFL and MLB, didn't want to share with upstart new teams who they believed hadn't paid the price and whose game was 'inferior'.

    So the ABA made the classic move. They began a bidding war for players with superstar attributes. They got players like Dr. J and Gervin and many others who took the staid pro game above the rim. When economics forced a merger, the NBA barons were livid that these upstarts with their red, white and blue ball, their 3pt. shot, and their street game were going to push their way to the big table.

    At that time, there were rumors that the big NBA brass and the old line NBA refs who still were in the majority had vowed that no former ABA team was going to win the NBA le for many years. And it didn't happen until 1999 when the Spurs won it all.

    Speculation? Sure. But let's look at some history. Shortly after the merger the Spurs had a great team. They went into the playoffs and ran out to a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Conference Finals over the Washington team that eventually won it all. In the 5th game, a very questionable foul called in the final seconds gave Washington the win. Coach Doug Moe was fined by the league for comments on the officiating and the SA fans collected money to pay his fine. Whatever happened to the theory that the refs don't want to decide the game in the final seconds?

    This was one of the few rare instances in NBA history where a team down 3-1 came back to win the series. It was a miracle win for the old league's prestige.

    More Spur playoff history. I don't remember the year or the round of the playoffs, but the Spurs were playing the Lakers in LA. At the half, the Spurs had 24 fouls called on them and the Lakers had ZERO. By the end of the game, the disparity had lessened--but you take a team out of its game with that many fouls in the first half.

    Star players get hamstrung with fouls and can't play while the other team is shooting free-throws. It was a very su ious game for the refs.

  10. #235
    Celtic Nation NBA Junkie's Avatar
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    Game 7 of the 2000 Blazers-Lakers series was highly su ious.
    How so?

    Portland flat out choked with a 15 point lead with ten minutes left.

  11. #236
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    History Lesson Part III

    Ethical Exceptions in the NBA about which there is almost universal acceptance:

    1. The refs (pick one: don't, won't, shouldn't) decide the game, especially in the last (seconds, minute, minutes)

    This maxim is so ridiculous that it shouldn't be considered as part of accepted wisdom. Would you accept a stricture that the umpire in baseball will quit calling balls and strikes correctly in the last inning?

    Secondly, at what point in the game should this ethical exception go into effect? The last: two minutes, one minute, 24 seconds? All bets are off at that point and the players can simply go at it without regard to the rules?

    Forget the last second no-call this year in Spurs/Lakers game, what about a no call in the final second that decided a NBA champion. Remember the Utah-Chicago series in 1998? Here's what a former NBA ref Mike Mathis had to say about it in the NYPOST:

    "Mathis referenced the pivotal shot in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals by Jordan against the Utah Jazz that gave the Bulls their sixth and final championship in the Jordan era. Many observers maintain Jordan committed an offensive foul, but it was not called because of Jordan's stature and reputation.

    "Refereeing has gone downhill," said Mathis, who runs the Mathis Foundation that works with and supplies scholarships for foster kids in Cincinnati. "Remember when Jordan hit that winning shot? I'm going to give you exactly what the commentators said: 'What a great move by Michael.' Was that a great move or was that an offensive foul? There was no question it was a push-off. No buts about it. The only buts you can have is, 'Well, it was Michael Jordan.' That was a defining moment."


    That brings up ethical exception 2:

    Superstars are inviolate. They don't foul out (until they are over the hill, eg. Shaq) and get special treatment. In no other sport does the player run a big risk of having to leave the game for common infractions, so to keep the superstars in the game, they are given protection by the refs. It's all part of the money angle. Who'd want to watch an NBA game where all the superstars were on the bench because of fouls?

    Mathis says it well above. Everyone knows that superstars get away with a lot more than rookies or role players. In fact, a savvy vet like Jordan, Kobe, Tim or whoever KNOWS he isn't gonna get called on a push off in that situation and takes advantage of the edge that the refs give him.

    In no other sports do refs acknowledge superstar status of the player and give an edge to the player.

  12. #237
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    NBA: Where Rigged Games Happens
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en



    NBA on CBS 1985 NBA Draft Lottery - COMPLETE VERSION



    Infamous Fixed 1985 Draft

    NBA on CBS coverage of the 1985 NBA Draft Lottery, the first ever. I got a lot of complaints about my original video not showing David Stern reaching into the drum for the alleged "frozen envolope" so I included the entire thing, as well as Dave Debusschere showing a Ewing jersey already made up. A prelude to the Knicks-Pacers rivalry of the 1990's.

    Fans of the bent envelope theory point to 4:50 of the video where the corner of the envelope that would eventually be picked #1 can be seen with a bent corner sticking up.

    Narrated by Pat O'Brien



    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en



    The O'Reilly F*cktor

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en

  13. #238
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    NBA: Where Rigged Games Happens
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en



    NBA on CBS 1985 NBA Draft Lottery - COMPLETE VERSION



    Infamous Fixed 1985 Draft

    NBA on CBS coverage of the 1985 NBA Draft Lottery, the first ever. I got a lot of complaints about my original video not showing David Stern reaching into the drum for the alleged "frozen envolope" so I included the entire thing, as well as Dave Debusschere showing a Ewing jersey already made up. A prelude to the Knicks-Pacers rivalry of the 1990's.

    Fans of the bent envelope theory point to 4:50 of the video where the corner of the envelope that would eventually be picked #1 can be seen with a bent corner sticking up.

    Narrated by Pat O'Brien



    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en



    The O'Reilly F*cktor

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Lm1_yrDw&hl=en
    The first video is no longer available online. I clicked on it twice to make sure.

  14. #239
    Take the fcking keys away baseline bum's Avatar
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    How so?

    Portland flat out choked with a 15 point lead with ten minutes left.
    How so? Did you not see Shaq level Steve Smith with a minute left? I mean, he tackled him; it was an NFL hit. No call. It was even worse than the no call on Bryant elbowing Bibby in the face in game 6. Anyone who watched that game has to remember how quick the whistles were on Sabonis and Brian Grant in that fourth quarter.

  15. #240
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    try this link:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...LK-OGmDw&hl=en

    or do a google search for NBA rigged.

  16. #241
    The OL' Perfessor wildbill2u's Avatar
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    try this link:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...LK-OGmDw&hl=en

    or do a google search for NBA rigged.
    I found that one. I thought you had one posted up about the lottery with Stern pulling a rat...er...rabbit our of his hat.

  17. #242
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=lefty;2593404][U][SIZE="5"]

    But Donaghy doesn't stop there. He also claims that referees were instructed by league executives to protect star players from technical fouls and ejections in order to keep television ratings up, and that when a star player was ejected from a 2000 playoff game, an official was privately reprimanded by the league.

    [QUOTE]

    Where can we find a list of all players ejected in the 2000 playoffs? There couldn't be that many, and even fewer stars.

  18. #243
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    [QUOTE=Galileo;2600728][QUOTE=lefty;2593404][U][SIZE="5"]

    But Donaghy doesn't stop there. He also claims that referees were instructed by league executives to protect star players from technical fouls and ejections in order to keep television ratings up, and that when a star player was ejected from a 2000 playoff game, an official was privately reprimanded by the league.


    Where can we find a list of all players ejected in the 2000 playoffs? There couldn't be that many, and even fewer stars.
    I remember Rasheed Wallace getting ejected out of game 1 in the WCF that year.

  19. #244
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=daslicer;2600809][QUOTE=Galileo;2600728]
    [U][SIZE="5"]

    But Donaghy doesn't stop there. He also claims that referees were instructed by league executives to protect star players from technical fouls and ejections in order to keep television ratings up, and that when a star player was ejected from a 2000 playoff game, an official was privately reprimanded by the league.



    I remember Rasheed Wallace getting ejected out of game 1 in the WCF that year.
    Good find.

  20. #245
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    The fix is in and Bob Delaney is dirty. He's a former undcover cop and a professional liar, the perfect guy for Stern to recruit to the NBA.

  21. #246
    Believe.
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    No, the NBA is not fixed.
    It's broken.
    Fix it by Oct.

  22. #247
    REVENGE Avitus1's Avatar
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    The 85 draft was so rigged its not even funny.

  23. #248
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    [QUOTE=Galileo;2600728][QUOTE=lefty;2593404][U][SIZE="5"]

    But Donaghy doesn't stop there. He also claims that referees were instructed by league executives to protect star players from technical fouls and ejections in order to keep television ratings up, and that when a star player was ejected from a 2000 playoff game, an official was privately reprimanded by the league.

    Where can we find a list of all players ejected in the 2000 playoffs? There couldn't be that many, and even fewer stars.

    After perusing the internet and researching on my own, I found the players who were ejected from games during the 2000 NBA Playoffs and the referees that officiated each of those games.

    Dale Davis (Ind) and Sam Cassell (Mil) were both ejected in Game 3 of Round 1 - Officials: Hugh Evans, Ken Mauer, and Mark Wunderlich

    Allen Iverson (Phi) was ejected in Game 1 of Round 2 vs. Indiana - Officials: Ron Garretson, Terry Durham, and Ken Mauer

    Reggie Miller (Ind) was ejected in Game 4 of Round 2 vs. Philadelphia - Officials: Bennett Salvatore, Don Vaden, and Ronnie Nunn

    Rick Fox (LAL) was ejected in Game 4 of Round 2 vs. Phoenix - Officials: Joey Crawford, Mike Mathis, and Gary Forest

    Rasheed Wallace (Por) was ejected in Game 1 of the WCF vs. the Lakers - Officials: Ron Garretson, Mike Mathis, and Bob Delaney


    While all 6 of the players ejected played vital roles to their teams' success, only 2 of them were considered true "stars" - Iverson and Miller. I could see a case for Rasheed Wallace, but would anyone really be surpised that he would be ejected? Why would the league reprimand an official for ejecting a known hot-head?

  24. #249
    Inthe land of audiophiles angelbelow's Avatar
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    seems like the nba priority is really becoming capitalism and not entertainment.

  25. #250
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Kindergarten Cop;2601717][QUOTE=Galileo;2600728]
    [U][SIZE="5"]

    But Donaghy doesn't stop there. He also claims that referees were instructed by league executives to protect star players from technical fouls and ejections in order to keep television ratings up, and that when a star player was ejected from a 2000 playoff game, an official was privately reprimanded by the league.


    After perusing the internet and researching on my own, I found the players who were ejected from games during the 2000 NBA Playoffs and the referees that officiated each of those games.

    Dale Davis (Ind) and Sam Cassell (Mil) were both ejected in Game 3 of Round 1 - Officials: Hugh Evans, Ken Mauer, and Mark Wunderlich

    Allen Iverson (Phi) was ejected in Game 1 of Round 2 vs. Indiana - Officials: Ron Garretson, Terry Durham, and Ken Mauer

    Reggie Miller (Ind) was ejected in Game 4 of Round 2 vs. Philadelphia - Officials: Bennett Salvatore, Don Vaden, and Ronnie Nunn

    Rick Fox (LAL) was ejected in Game 4 of Round 2 vs. Phoenix - Officials: Joey Crawford, Mike Mathis, and Gary Forest

    Rasheed Wallace (Por) was ejected in Game 1 of the WCF vs. the Lakers - Officials: Ron Garretson, Mike Mathis, and Bob Delaney


    While all 6 of the players ejected played vital roles to their teams' success, only 2 of them were considered true "stars" - Iverson and Miller. I could see a case for Rasheed Wallace, but would anyone really be surpised that he would be ejected? Why would the league reprimand an official for ejecting a known hot-head?
    Great research. I do believe that the star was ejected in the first quarter, if that helps. I know Wallace was ejected in the first quarter, what about Miller and Iverson?

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