What JKidd said about Avery lol...

[MavDynasty]

JKidd says the littlest colonels ass-whupping style was killing everyone. Or something like that.

Heh...

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/730197.html


Kidd says Avery’s offense, rigid style cramped Mavs
By JAN HUBBARD
Jason Kidd says he is "playing for all those 35-year-olds that everybody says we’re too old, but we’re really not."

LAS VEGAS — The story was relayed by someone close to Jason Kidd in New Jersey, where Kidd returned after the disappointing end to the Mavericks’ 2007-08 season.

During his career, Kidd has been accused of being a "coach killer," a label he has disputed. But he’s aware of the talk, so when Avery Johnson was fired by the Mavericks, Kidd told a friend: "They can’t blame that one on me. When I got there, the players all thought he was crazy. And he was."

Kidd smiled easily when the story was related to him Saturday after the U.S. Olympic men’s basketball team went through its first practice.

"Well, I don’t remember saying all of that," he said. "I just think my name is always mentioned as someone who is looking to fire a coach. So I might have said to a friend that it didn’t fall on my shoulders."

Kidd sat in the bleachers at Cox Pavilion on the Nevada-Las Vegas campus, wearing his Team USA uniform, and talked openly of his frustrations as a Maverick.

When he joined the Mavericks after the Feb. 19 trade from the Nets, he thought Johnson would employ an up-tempo style that would take advantage of Kidd’s considerable passing skills. Instead, he found that Johnson was a rigid coach who was a domineering presence on the sidelines.

"We ran the first couple of games," Kidd said. "And then we stopped. A lot of times, our offense was used to set up our defense. We slowed it down instead of getting out and running and putting pressure on [opponents] after missed shots or even makes. We were pretty much — not just myself, but everybody — looking over to the sideline, trying to figure out what was going to be called."

Kidd is at his best in the open court, operating without constraints and creating easy shots for teammates. But he found that he had little freedom with Johnson.

It was noted during the season that Kidd probably spent more time looking at the sidelines for instructions in three months under Johnson than he had combined in his 13-year career. When asked Saturday if he had any problem with that observation, Kidd said: "That’s fair."

After the season, Dirk Nowitzki noted that the Mavericks’ offense had Kidd spotting up for jump shots on the weak side, and Nowitzki said he thought Kidd could have been utilized better.

Kidd is a 40.1 percent career shooter, so shooting is not the strongest part of his game.

"I have a bad habit," Kidd said jokingly. "And that’s looking to pass first. I don’t know if that’s going to change at 35, but we’ll see."

When asked pointedly if he found it difficult playing for Johnson, Kidd said: "I was trying my darndest to help the whole situation and try to do what he wanted. But I think maybe there was a situation where the voice had gone dead to a lot of guys. From my point, guys maybe stopped listening."

Kidd said he is looking forward to playing for new coach Rick Carlisle, who has promised to let Kidd run the show. But first, Kidd and the Olympic team will attempt to win the first gold medal for the U.S. since 2000.

Mavericks officials had some concerns about Kidd playing so much this summer. Kidd will turn 36 in March. The Olympics could tax him physically and leave him run down for the season.

Kidd, however, said that because the Mavericks’ playoffs ended early, he has already received sufficient rest. And he said the age issue is overrated.

"People are fixated on my age and my jump shot," Kidd said, and laughed. "I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason. [Steve] Nash is not that much younger, but his age is never brought up.

"I’m playing for all those 35-year-olds that everybody says we’re too old, but we’re really not."

Kidd also was amused by a recent comment attributed to Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, who complimented the Chicago Bulls on selecting guard Derrick Rose with the No. 1 pick in the draft.

Obama said Rose "is Jason Kidd with a jump shot."

[21_Blessings]

Kidd is old and his jumper is terrible. He's also Chris Paul's bitch now.

[Brutalis]

This is news?

[The Franchise]

Jason Kidd is not just a coach killer, He is also a team Killer. Being traded is starting to look like a blessing for Devin Harris.

[SenorSpur]

Jason Kidd is not just a coach killer, He is also a team Killer. Being traded is starting to look like a blessing for Devin Harris.

....and the reason the Mavs had NO 1st round pick in this year's draft. Every other team keeps getting better, while the Mavs stand pat hoping to recapture their supposed magic of 2006

"We like our team the way it is...."
- Mark Cuban

[Anti.Hero]

Does he watch Nash play. Nash hits like 95% of his jumpers....

[jack sommerset]

Don Nelson made the Mavs.

Avery sucks.

[Indazone]

lol...not news but expect the Mavs to be vastly improved next year.

[The Franchise]

lol...not news but expect the Mavs to be vastly improved next year.

I don't know. It may turn into a be careful what you wish for situation.

[Indazone]

actually I still think Jason Kidd is washed up and he won't amount to much next year anyways. Mavs will improve but finish about 5th or 6th in the West.

[jack sommerset]

lol...not news but expect the Mavs to be vastly improved next year.

I think they will do better next year too. The window has closed in my opinion for a championship but they should provide competition for the better teams out there. Avery was a clown.

[Ghazi]

The Mavs are not as far off as people think they are. The "better teams" out there were only a few games better than the Mavs in the regular season, so if the Mavs do indeed improve, they'll be right in the thick of things.

I don't know what to expect, but the range of my personal expectations are missing the playoffs to a 3 seed, with a chance to win a title with the right breaks. The two teams I can't see not getting the first 2 seeds are Los Angeles and Utah.

[angelbelow]

lol

[TheMadHatter]

The Mavs are not as far off as people think they are. The "better teams" out there were only a few games better than the Mavs in the regular season, so if the Mavs do indeed improve, they'll be right in the thick of things.

I don't know what to expect, but the range of my personal expectations are missing the playoffs to a 3 seed, with a chance to win a title with the right breaks. The two teams I can't see not getting the first 2 seeds are Los Angeles and Utah.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Your expectations are basically either the Mavs miss the playoffs or win the NBA championship. Good Lord you Mav fans are a funny bunch.

I think LAL has a good shot at the #1 seed again if they stay healthy. They'll have even more depth than last year and a lot more experience as a unit.

[thekingrobert]

too bad Derrick Rose doesnt really have a jumpshot

[Blackjack]

Hey MadHatter, bummer about your "Gay Love" not working out.

Unfortunately for Grizz fans they're going to be stuck with, "Gay Mayo."

Now that's just disgusting.... :lmao

[IronMexican]

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Your expectations are basically either the Mavs miss the playoffs or win the NBA championship. Good Lord you Mav fans are a funny bunch.

I think LAL has a good shot at the #1 seed again if they stay healthy. They'll have even more depth than last year and a lot more experience as a unit.

best sig in the history of sigs. that was the greatest 3 hour dynasty ever:toast

[Obstructed_View]

The Mavs are not as far off as people think they are. The "better teams" out there were only a few games better than the Mavs in the regular season, so if the Mavs do indeed improve, they'll be right in the thick of things.

Since their record was built before the trade (meaning despite how bad they were after Kidd's arrival), they have to REALLY improve to be right in the thick of things. Maybe the coaching change will provide enough of a boost to get them through this year, but they'll definitely stop listening to him at some point. I don't know if it matters, though. The rest of the west is getting tougher; they might be able to improve enough to keep them in playoff contention.

[Guajalote]

JKidd is one of our greatest modern prophets.

Upon being drafted by the Mavs before the 1994-95 season, he was quoted as saying, "We are going to turn this team around 360 degrees."

Upon his return via a midseason trade to the Mavs thirteen (THIRTEEN!) years later, his great prophecy was fulfilled. Long live the sage, the prognosticator, the mind that is JKidd. :worthy:

[Ghazi]

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Your expectations are basically either the Mavs miss the playoffs or win the NBA championship. Good Lord you Mav fans are a funny bunch.

I think LAL has a good shot at the #1 seed again if they stay healthy. They'll have even more depth than last year and a lot more experience as a unit.

It doesn't sound ridiculous at all because there are a lot of things that are still unknown. HOW much was Avery holding the team back?, was Josh Howard's poor play just a blip or a sign of things to come? Will Kidd flourish under a more suitable offensive system? Will the bench have some more youth/athleticism? Factors like these can make a difference of 8-10 games over the course of an 82 game season, and those 8-10 games in the West can be the difference between being as high as the 3rd seed and missing the playoffs.

[rAm]

JKidd is one of our greatest modern prophets.

Upon being drafted by the Mavs before the 1994-95 season, he was quoted as saying, "We are going to turn this team around 360 degrees."

Upon his return via a midseason trade to the Mavs thirteen (THIRTEEN!) years later, his great prophecy was fulfilled. Long live the sage, the prognosticator, the mind that is JKidd. :worthy:

hahaha, turning a team around 360 degrees = turning it right back to where it was. stupid.

[stretch]

Playoff race

West

1 - Mavericks
2 thru 8 - missed the playoffs because no one could compete with the 82-0 Mavericks.

[Shank]

Some very damning quotes in that column. Avery was a detriment to the team this past season. All the rhetoric posted on the walls of the practice court have been taken down (43%/Keep your man in front of you/ defense-desire, etc.) and have been replaced with guys talking basketball and learning from their coaches. No more bullshit. No more yelling or demeaning the players.

Still waiting for Avery to take that assistant coach position with the Spurs that everyone thought was coming. It was said in another thread that even his former team doesn't want him because of his ways. If that's not true, then why is the hot commodity that is Avery Johnson still on the streets?

[MavDynasty]

Playoff race

West

1 - Mavericks
2 thru 8 - missed the playoffs because no one could compete with the 82-0 Mavericks.

:lmao

[monosylab1k]

Still waiting for Avery to take that assistant coach position with the Spurs that everyone thought was coming. It was said in another thread that even his former team doesn't want him because of his ways. If that's not true, then why is the hot commodity that is Avery Johnson still on the streets?

Spurs fans and Avery will spin that as "hahahah Avery is gonna live off Cuban's money! hahahaha Cuban sucks! lulz!!1!!!1!!!!!"

But everyone knows that with Avery's ego, he's gotta be incredibly pissed about not even getting so much as a courtesy call from former teammate Steve Kerr, or that Joe Dumars would rather hand over the reigns of an elite EC team to a guy with zero head coaching experience. Avery thought he could leave Dallas and have every team in the NBA breaking down his door trying to hire him.

[stretch]

there is no way he's not incredibly pissed about not even getting so much as a courtesy call from former teammate Steve Kerr

lol, cue in the idiots that say you have no facts/basis to say that even though they know its probably the truth but are too stupid to admit it

EDIT: sorry messed the quote up at first

[monosylab1k]

Also, I love that Avery's gone, but to think he was the biggest problem is still foolish. Dirk, Kidd, Josh, etc. all are loving being able to throw Avery under the bus, but this season is put-up-or-shut-up time for all of them. If Avery was really the big problem then I expect a 60 win season minimum out of those guys considering all the shit they've talked about Avery after his dismissal.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

But everyone knows that with Avery's ego, he's gotta be incredibly pissed about not even getting so much as a courtesy call from former teammate Steve Kerr, or that Joe Dumars would rather hand over the reigns of an elite EC team to a guy with zero head coaching experience. Avery thought he could leave Dallas and have every team in the NBA breaking down his door trying to hire him.

It amazed me how he wasn't getting any calls from any NBA teams about the head coaching job. I mean, hell, Negro was picked over him. Damn, that's gotta hurt for him.

[MavDynasty]

Also, I love that Avery's gone, but to think he was the biggest problem is still foolish. Dirk, Kidd, Josh, etc. all are loving being able to throw Avery under the bus, but this season is put-up-or-shut-up time for all of them. If Avery was really the big problem then I expect a 60 win season minimum out of those guys considering all the shit they've talked about Avery after his dismissal.

I agree, but i still have hope that this franchise isnt the TWolves just yet.

[stretch]

Also, I love that Avery's gone, but to think he was the biggest problem is still foolish. Dirk, Kidd, Josh, etc. all are loving being able to throw Avery under the bus, but this season is put-up-or-shut-up time for all of them. If Avery was really the big problem then I expect a 60 win season minimum out of those guys considering all the shit they've talked about Avery after his dismissal.

i can see us pulling off a 60 win season. but first we gotta get diop back, and solidify that backup C position. that was killing us a lot worse than we realized last year. also gotta let antoine wright play. the dude has skills and athleticism. i see carlisle using him more, and i can see him averaging around 9-11 ppg. Bass will improve as well, i think averaging around 10-12 ppg. The whole team will be a lot more comfortable with Kidd, and the way he was able to get more out of Dampier, i think with a better system, he can get Damp to get back to a near double-double average. Terry really seemed to thrive off of running with Kidd, so hopefully we see more running out of them two which will get us easier buckets. and if Howard gets back to how he was playing back in 05-06, this team is definitely a championship caliber team. i think we just need to find a pure shooter than can step in an hit 3s. who knows, maybe this guy we got in the draft can do that, as apparently he is a hell of a shooter. not expecting him to though.

[stretch]

It amazed me how he wasn't getting any calls from any NBA teams about the head coaching job. I mean, hell, Negro was picked over him. Damn, that's gotta hurt for him.

according to Tacker, Del Negro could pull off a Phil Jackson and waltz in and win titles.

[leemajors]

lol, cue in the idiots that say you have no facts/basis to say that even though they know its probably the truth but are too stupid to admit it

EDIT: sorry messed the quote up at first


Spurs fans and Avery will spin that as "hahahah Avery is gonna live off Cuban's money! hahahaha Cuban sucks! lulz!!1!!!1!!!!!"

But everyone knows that with Avery's ego, he's gotta be incredibly pissed about not even getting so much as a courtesy call from former teammate Steve Kerr, or that Joe Dumars would rather hand over the reigns of an elite EC team to a guy with zero head coaching experience. Avery thought he could leave Dallas and have every team in the NBA breaking down his door trying to hire him.

there was an article posted in the spurs forum last week about Kerr disliking Avery as a player, and liking Porter. I'm too lazy to look it up.

[SynicFan]

Jason Kidd is not just a coach killer, He is also a team Killer. Being traded is starting to look like a blessing for Devin Harris.


STARTING to look like a blessing?
It was, is and will always be.
Devin is an above average PG/SG.
He's not as good as the Mavwrecks wanted him to be,
however he's not as bad as the NJ Nets.

[SynicFan]

It amazed me how he wasn't getting any calls from any NBA teams about the head coaching job. I mean, hell, Negro was picked over him. Damn, that's gotta hurt for him.


Why would that amaze you?
All he's proven so far is he can take a good team and bring it to its knees.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Why would that amaze you?
All he's proven so far is he can take a good team and bring it to its knees.

At least he's had experience, though.
Why would anyone pick Negro over AJ?

[MavDynasty]

Because the bulls are retarded?or because Avery Sucks?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Because the bulls are retarded?or because Avery Sucks?

I'm thinking the Bulls' retardation.

[SynicFan]

At least he's had experience, though.
Why would anyone pick Negro over AJ?


Let me give you a non-sports example:

Who has a better chance of getting a brand new Lexus with no money down?
a person with BAD credit?
or
a person with NO CREDIT?
Ovary's proven to have a bad history as a coach...and that's his ONLY history as a coach.
AT the VERY LEAST, VDN has a clean slate....

[monosylab1k]

This guy's posting style is beyond irritating.

[SynicFan]

Wow.
font size and positioning irritate you?
I DON'T envy your life

[MavDynasty]

Wow.
font size and positioning irritate you?
I DON'T envy your life

wow your fucking annoying...

[RonMexico]

"People are fixated on my age and my jump shot," Kidd said, and laughed. "I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason. [Steve] Nash is not that much younger, but his age is never brought up.


Ummmm... I'm pretty sure everyone brings up Nash's age. On this message board, on TV, and in print media.

[monosylab1k]

Wow.
font size and positioning irritate you?
I DON'T envy your life

I'm going to track your IP, find out where you live, and then kill you in your sleep.

[SynicFan]

wow your fucking annoying...


you're off on a tangent.
He asked why anyone would pick VDN over Ovary.
I told him why. the rest is irrelevant.

[RonMexico]

I'm going to track your IP, find out where you live, and then kill you in your sleep.

Will you kill me too?

I'm too chicken shit to commit suicide, but I can't watch Robin Lopez play in a Suns uniform.

[stretch]

"People are fixated on my age and my jump shot," Kidd said, and laughed. "I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason. [Steve] Nash is not that much younger, but his age is never brought up.


Ummmm... I'm pretty sure everyone brings up Nash's age. On this message board, on TV, and in print media.

people do, but not nearly as much as Kidd. people say Kidd is already broken down and done (which obviously hes not). no one says anything about Nash being broken down and done. they both have plenty of good basketball left in them.

[stretch]

Will you kill me too?

I'm too chicken shit to commit suicide, but I can't watch Robin Lopez play in a Suns uniform.

:lmao

[stretch]

I'm going to track your IP, find out where you live, and then kill you in your sleep.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[stretch]

you're off on a tangent.
He asked why anyone would pick VDN over Ovary.
I told him why. the rest is irrelevant.

:cry

[Obstructed_View]

"People are fixated on my age and my jump shot," Kidd said, and laughed. "I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason. [Steve] Nash is not that much younger, but his age is never brought up.


Ummmm... I'm pretty sure everyone brings up Nash's age. On this message board, on TV, and in print media.

Nash is also one of the best shooters in the league, so I'm not sure what Kidd is smoking when he makes that comparison.

[Obstructed_View]

Also, I love that Avery's gone, but to think he was the biggest problem is still foolish. Dirk, Kidd, Josh, etc. all are loving being able to throw Avery under the bus, but this season is put-up-or-shut-up time for all of them. If Avery was really the big problem then I expect a 60 win season minimum out of those guys considering all the shit they've talked about Avery after his dismissal.

QFT. I think AJ wasn't the problem, so a big turnaround for them is going to be required to convince me.

Not surprised that Kerr didn't hire AJ. There were a lot of Spurs that didn't like David and AJ always trying to turn everything into a prayer meeting.

[SynicFan]

Nash is also one of the best shooters in the league, so I'm not sure what Kidd is smoking when he makes that comparison.


My name is SynicFan...
and I approve that message!

[stretch]

Nash is also one of the best shooters in the league, so I'm not sure what Kidd is smoking when he makes that comparison.

Kidd is one of the best defensive PGs and the best rebounding PG in the league.

[ludda]

Why would the Bulls hire Skiles 2.0 after all the reports of the players tuning him out and wanting a more free-flowing guy like D'Antoni? I don't get the Vinny hire but I can see why they didn't hire Avery.
Avery was on ESPN the other day, making sure to tell the world that it is HIS CHOICE he wants a year or two off. Even though he was very interested in the Bulls job after they got the first pick. According to him, he didn't really pursue anything. Translation: no one wanted him.
I think Avery is a horribly overrated coach and Carlisle was a great pick up. I don't think dumping Avery makes the Mavs better b/c their roster sucks but it is a move in the right direction.

[SynicFan]

Kidd is one of the best defensive PGs and the best rebounding PG in the league.

The quote reads "People are fixated on my age and my jump shot...I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason."

his rebounding and defensive skills were not in question...
his AGE and SHOOTING were.

[stretch]

The quote reads "People are fixated on my age and my jump shot...I swear – if you don’t put my name in an article and you just put '35 and inconsistent shooter,’ somebody’s going to say, 'That’s Jason."

his rebounding and defensive skills were not in question...
his AGE and SHOOTING were.


im aware. but for his lack in shooting (which Nash does extremely well), he plays defense and rebounds (which Nash does not do well). id say it balances. besides, what wins championships? shooting? or defense and rebounding?

stfu

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Let me give you a non-sports example:

Who has a better chance of getting a brand new Lexus with no money down?
a person with BAD credit?
or
a person with NO CREDIT?
Ovary's proven to have a bad history as a coach...and that's his ONLY history as a coach.
AT the VERY LEAST, VDN has a clean slate....
A better analogy would be would you rather have: a person with bad credit, or a person who doesn't even know how credit works.

[SynicFan]

A better analogy would be would you rather have: a person with bad credit, or a person who doesn't even know how credit works.

I gotcha.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I gotcha.

Hey, no center alignment or larger size. :clap

[SynicFan]

Hey, no center alignment or larger size. :clap

I wouldn't expect it to be a common occurrence if I were you.

[RonMexico]

people do, but not nearly as much as Kidd. people say Kidd is already broken down and done (which obviously hes not). no one says anything about Nash being broken down and done. they both have plenty of good basketball left in them.

They both do have good b-ball left in them, but there are certain aspects of their games that their age affects (positively and negatively):
-Nash has the back problem
-Kidd has lost a small step due to his microfracture surgery and age;
-Kidd can't take people off the dribble like he could earlier in his career, so his inconsistent jumper becomes more of a liability;
-Nash is obviously the better shooter, but has trouble with bigger, more physical defenders and he's also lost some of his quickness due to age so he settles for jumpers more
-Both are craftier as a result of their experience in the league and their passing skills remain high
-Nash is a liability on the defensive end, while Kidd can defend bigger or smaller guards and is a much better rebounder

I haven't read many stories that say Kidd is broken down and done and nothing in his games last year led me to believe he was.

[dbreiden83080]

"They can’t blame that one on me. When I got there, the players all thought he was crazy. And he was."

When you got there, everyone thought you were a piece of shit and you are Jason.

[dbreiden83080]

Some very damning quotes in that column. Avery was a detriment to the team this past season. All the rhetoric posted on the walls of the practice court have been taken down (43%/Keep your man in front of you/ defense-desire, etc.) and have been replaced with guys talking basketball and learning from their coaches. No more bullshit. No more yelling or demeaning the players.


When Avery took over he was exactly what the Mavs needed. Nelson we all know is a softer coach who does not preach Defense. He got them further than Nelson ever did and you guys did have an epic 67 win season. Problem with the Mavs was and still is, they have very little leadership on the team. Dirk is not a great player because he can't lead.

[Obstructed_View]

Kidd is one of the best defensive PGs and the best rebounding PG in the league.

So "inconsistent shot" doesn't apply to Nash. Thanks for agreeing.

:lol The only thing defensive about Kidd is his attitude.

[Shank]

When Avery took over he was exactly what the Mavs needed. Nelson we all know is a softer coach who does not preach Defense. He got them further than Nelson ever did and you guys did have an epic 67 win season. Problem with the Mavs was and still is, they have very little leadership on the team. Dirk is not a great player because he can't lead.

Dirk is not a great player? Seriously?

Take your lips off Avery's ass.

[Obstructed_View]

The biggest problem I saw with the Mavs is that they abandoned the defensive philosophy over the last 18 months to the point that they were the same chuck it up and allow a layup team that they were before AJ took over. Doesn't take much searching to come to a conclusion why the team didn't feel the need to tow the line with the coach.

And the sentence should be, "Dirk is not a winner because he can't lead." He's a great player, but he's a terrible leader. He doesn't even do it by example.

[ElNono]

Kidd is one of the best defensive PGs and the best rebounding PG in the league.

After the New Orleans series, this is definitely a myth, IMHO. Maybe earlier in his career, when he could run with the fastest guys out there, but not these days.

[mavs>spurs2]

After the New Orleans series, this is definitely a myth, IMHO. Maybe earlier in his career, when he could run with the fastest guys out there, but not these days.

I couldn't agree more. Used to be a great defender, but today he's more like a decent defender, maybe above average.

Kidd is what he is, a great passer and rebounder but poor shooter and starting to lose his speed/quickness.

[stretch]

After the New Orleans series, this is definitely a myth, IMHO. Maybe earlier in his career, when he could run with the fastest guys out there, but not these days.

while he has obviously slowed down some, his defense is not bad at all. at the same time, what PG's in the league can stop Chris Paul? In fact, what individual players in the entire league can stop Chris Paul, other than himself? Thats an unfair way to judge Kidd.

how about answer this... how many great defensive PGs are in the league? how many PGs are better defenders than Kidd? i guarantee you wont be able to name very many at all. thats sometimes what bothers me about people bagging on PGs for defense. virtually NO point guards in the league are great defenders by any means. some of the better ones consist of Billups, Kidd, and Harris. but i mean Nash is obviously a poor defender. so is Parker. Deron and CP3 arent any better than Kidd. in fact CP3 pretty much relies solely on steals. AI is the same. Baron CAN play defense, but isnt consistent. but there really isnt any great defensive PGs, and the last one that we could really consider a great defensive PG is Jason Kidd.

[stretch]

I couldn't agree more. Used to be a great defender, but today he's more like a decent defender, maybe above average.

your opinion is garbage anyways you have some of the worst takes on stuff like saying paul pierce is a finals mvp thus pierce >>> dirk, which anyone that knows what the hell they are talking about knows that is the worst reasoning ever. dirk almost singlehandedly won the title, with no other stars on his team. david stern had to stop him. not to mention he had much better competition than the celtics had (hawks, cavs, pistons, lakers). the spurs that year were better than all those teams combined. the suns would have beat all those teams as well. the grizzlies and heat werent exactly bad teams at all either, better than the hawks for sure. you clearly put minimal thought into your basketball takes.

[Obstructed_View]

Since you just said that Parker is a poor defender, it makes sense that you consider Kidd a great defender.

[ElNono]

while he has obviously slowed down some, his defense is not bad at all. at the same time, what PG's in the league can stop Chris Paul? In fact, what individual players in the entire league can stop Chris Paul, other than himself? Thats an unfair way to judge Kidd.

how about answer this... how many great defensive PGs are in the league? how many PGs are better defenders than Kidd? i guarantee you wont be able to name very many at all. thats sometimes what bothers me about people bagging on PGs for defense. virtually NO point guards in the league are great defenders by any means. some of the better ones consist of Billups, Kidd, and Harris. but i mean Nash is obviously a poor defender. so is Parker. Deron and CP3 arent any better than Kidd. in fact CP3 pretty much relies solely on steals. AI is the same. Baron CAN play defense, but isnt consistent. but there really isnt any great defensive PGs, and the last one that we could really consider a great defensive PG is Jason Kidd.

I mostly agree with you. I think Billups is the superior defender these days. I can't consider JKidd a 'great defensive PG' simply because he isn't anymore, regardless of wether any of the other PGs in the league are any good on D.
At least any of the other PGs will make you pay on the other end. If Kidd is not running a fast break, he just isn't really useful at all.

[monosylab1k]

Since you just said that Parker is a poor defender, it makes sense that you consider Kidd a great defender.

I think Parker & Kidd are both very similar defensively - subpar individual defenders but excellent at "team defense". But Parker has the obvious advantage of having Tim Duncan protecting the paint while Kidd has Dirk & Dampier which is basically no help at all.

[Ghazi]

Anyone who thinks Avery wasn't a problem for the Mavs did not watch much Mavs basketball this year. Obviously basketball is complex and he isn't the ONLY problem, they still have voids in low post scoring, shooting guards, and an athletic player on the wing that can slash and pass (J-Ho is a ballstopper, and can't do either), but it's definitely an upgrade now that Avery is gone.

What does "leadership" even mean when it comes to criticizing Dirk? the Golden State series aside, Dirk is a player whose productivity actually goes up in the playoffs. He averaged 26.8/12 on 48% shooting in the NO series, and is one of the most clutch players in the game.

The criticism of Dirk is nitpicking and jealousy. He's one of the 5-8 best players in the league, and gets criticized for not being one of the 2-3 best. He is who he is, one of the greatest PF's of all time albeit in an unconventional fashion.

[mavs>spurs2]

your opinion is garbage anyways you have some of the worst takes on stuff like saying paul pierce is a finals mvp thus pierce >>> dirk, which anyone that knows what the hell they are talking about knows that is the worst reasoning ever. dirk almost singlehandedly won the title, with no other stars on his team. david stern had to stop him. not to mention he had much better competition than the celtics had (hawks, cavs, pistons, lakers). the spurs that year were better than all those teams combined. the suns would have beat all those teams as well. the grizzlies and heat werent exactly bad teams at all either, better than the hawks for sure. you clearly put minimal thought into your basketball takes.

If I recall correctly, PP's finals MVP wasn't the sole reason, but one of many reasons, why I said he's better than Dirk. Dirk never singlehandedly won a title, the MAVERICKS got screwed that year. Not the Dirk's, the MAVERICKS. That year, the pothead was an all star and didn't think he was too good to do the dirty work like playing D and grabbing boards. Terry was a borderline all star that year and a solid 3rd option. Stackhouse was one of the best 6th men in the league. Avery's iso offense worked because of all the offensive threats and slashers (Harris, All Star form Howard, Terry of 2 years ago, Daniels, 6th man of the year Stackhouse, etc.) and it was when he was fresh and the players hadn't started to tune him out yet. 2006 was a totally different ball game, and was far from being "The Dirk Show" as you remember it. Now you might not agree PP>Dirk, and that's fine, it's really a pretty close call, but don't stay butthurt 2 weeks later and hold a grudge and call my opinions "garbage" over it.

I say Kidd isn't a great defender but an "above average" one because of the way Paul, Parker, Williams, among others torch his ass the past 2 years. You can call that stupid if you want, but I'm not willing to stick my head in the sand and pretend all is well in Mav Land and our Knight in Shining Armor(Dirk) is going to come and rescue us.

[dbreiden83080]

Dirk is not a great player? Seriously?

Take your lips off Avery's ass.

He is not a great player at all. He puts up stats, he had an amazing series against the Spurs a few years ago and then failed to lead his team to the title against an inferior opponent. He then allowed an 8 seed to knock off his 67 win juggernut Mavs. Got beat by the Hornets pretty easy this year as well. He 100% is not a great player.

[Shank]

He is not a great player at all. He puts up stats, he had an amazing series against the Spurs a few years ago and then failed to lead his team to the title against an inferior opponent. He then allowed an 8 seed to knock off his 67 win juggernut Mavs. Got beat by the Hornets pretty easy this year as well. He 100% is not a great player.

Fuck me. I could have sworn it was a Mavericks team playing those games and not a single individual.

He is a great player. That's not a homer view, either. It's widely accepted.

[mavs>spurs2]

He is not a great player at all. He puts up stats, he had an amazing series against the Spurs a few years ago and then failed to lead his team to the title against an inferior opponent. He then allowed an 8 seed to knock off his 67 win juggernut Mavs. Got beat by the Hornets pretty easy this year as well. He 100% is not a great player.

Define great player. If you mean he's not a Magic or a Jordan, well, yea. But Dirk is a very very very good player, top 5 PF all time, definately a top 10 player in today's league. And don't blame him for the Mavs getting screwed in 2006, everyone with a brain saw that for what it really was, a screwjob. Michael Jordan himself would have looked like a scrub next to D whistle, there was absolutely no way you could even attempt to guard the guy. The Golden State debacle was bad, but one series doesn't decide an entire career. This year the Hornets were just a superior team, Dirk had literally NO help. It's not Dirk's fault his coach was a maniac and his teammates quit on him.

[Obstructed_View]

I think Parker & Kidd are both very similar defensively - subpar individual defenders but excellent at "team defense". But Parker has the obvious advantage of having Tim Duncan protecting the paint while Kidd has Dirk & Dampier which is basically no help at all.

Well you are half right. Kidd is a subpar defender.

[ludda]

Dirk is definitely a great player. But I guess it depends on your definition of "great" but if Dirk isn't considered a great player, then neither should a lot of stars in the league today.

[Ghazi]

He is not a great player at all. He puts up stats, he had an amazing series against the Spurs a few years ago and then failed to lead his team to the title against an inferior opponent. He then allowed an 8 seed to knock off his 67 win juggernut Mavs. Got beat by the Hornets pretty easy this year as well. He 100% is not a great player.

If we're gonna use this stupid logic, the only great players in the league right now are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe. Hell let's not even count Kobe since he was the 2nd best player on his team during those title runs. If you have to lead a team to a title fine, but then we can only consider 2-3 players in the league great... unless we count every single member on those championship squads as great, but then we have to consider guys like Mehmet Okur, Fabricio Oberto, Eddie House (not saying these players are bad because they aren't, but they certainly aren't more skilled tha Dirk) etc etc as superior players to Dirk, which is illogical.

I won't even mention the fact that the Mavs should've won a ring in '06 but were robbed by the whistles, mindful of the fact that there was a degree of luck in beating the Spurs. Never the less, historically in the NBA you need a top 2-3 player to win a title... Shaq, Duncan, Jordan... there are some exceptions such as the stacked roster of the Celtics or the 2004 Pistons, but generally, you have to have a SUPER great player rather than just a great player. Dirk, being in my estimation, a top 5-7 player rather than a top 2-3 player, does not fit this prerequisite for a title... but why does he get criticized for that? He works hard, he doesn't have off the court issues, he has desire... yet people need to find a way to nitpick and criticize him. If you're a bad player, you get criticized for being bad. If you're a good player, you'll get criticized for not being great. If you have off the court issues, you'll get blasted. If you're a great player, you'll get criticized for a bad series or stretch of games. I guess nobody is exempt from criticism, and it's stupid.

[stretch]

Since you just said that Parker is a poor defender, it makes sense that you consider Kidd a great defender.

parker is a poor defender

homer

[stretch]

I think Parker & Kidd are both very similar defensively - subpar individual defenders but excellent at "team defense". But Parker has the obvious advantage of having Tim Duncan protecting the paint while Kidd has Dirk & Dampier which is basically no help at all.

parker isnt even good at team defense

remember how many times he just allowed chris paul mo pete and other guys to have free lanes and open backdoor cuts to the basket?

and since we are basing it off chris pauls domination of each guard, he pretty much dominated each guard equally. he averaged around 1 point less per game, around 2 less assists per game, but shot a slightly higher percentage against the spurs. so parkers defense really wasnt much better, especially considering he has Tim Duncan and Oberto behind him, which is far superior defensively to Erick Dampier and Malik Allen.

[stretch]

If I recall correctly, PP's finals MVP wasn't the sole reason, but one of many reasons, why I said he's better than Dirk. Dirk never singlehandedly won a title, the MAVERICKS got screwed that year. Not the Dirk's, the MAVERICKS. That year, the pothead was an all star and didn't think he was too good to do the dirty work like playing D and grabbing boards. Terry was a borderline all star that year and a solid 3rd option. Stackhouse was one of the best 6th men in the league. Avery's iso offense worked because of all the offensive threats and slashers (Harris, All Star form Howard, Terry of 2 years ago, Daniels, 6th man of the year Stackhouse, etc.) and it was when he was fresh and the players hadn't started to tune him out yet. 2006 was a totally different ball game, and was far from being "The Dirk Show" as you remember it. Now you might not agree PP>Dirk, and that's fine, it's really a pretty close call, but don't stay butthurt 2 weeks later and hold a grudge and call my opinions "garbage" over it.

I say Kidd isn't a great defender but an "above average" one because of the way Paul, Parker, Williams, among others torch his ass the past 2 years. You can call that stupid if you want, but I'm not willing to stick my head in the sand and pretend all is well in Mav Land and our Knight in Shining Armor(Dirk) is going to come and rescue us.

garbage opinion

:sleep

[stretch]

Well you are half right. Kidd is a subpar defender.

lol homer

[monosylab1k]

Well you are half right. Kidd is a subpar defender.

Yeah because great defenders let Devin Harris repeatedly rape them. And then admit as much as soon as he's traded.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah because great defenders let Devin Harris repeatedly rape them. And then admit as much as soon as he's traded.
Devin Harris caused Parker trouble with his defense, not his offense.

[monosylab1k]

Devin Harris caused Parker trouble with his defense, not his offense.

right right, I forgot. Blowing by Parker on his way to the rim over and over and over was great defense by Harris.

[ElNono]

Dirk *IS* a great basketball player, IMO. He's just not top 10 in the league anymore. A couple of years ago? Sure. Last year, when he won the MVP? Maybe. This year, definitely not. He has the talent to be right there among the best. Unfortunately, this is the time when more is being asked of him. Not just sink the J, but also expand his game to the post, and take on a leadership role. He just hasn't delivered on those aspects. We'll see with Carslile on board now, if it was a coach problem or a player problem.
One other thing I see Dallas lacking is a solid 2 or 3 player nucleus. Every respectable team in the west has it these days. Lakers:Gasol/Kobe/Odom, NO:Paul/West/Chandler, Spurs:TD/TP/Manu, Suns:Nash/Amare/Shaq, Utah:Williams/Boozer/Okur, etc.
You could argue Dallas has Dirk/JHo/Terry. But if you look at the other groups, there's at least one big in the mix, and that's not the case for Dallas. Plus JHo keeps showing everybody what a inconsistent knucklehead he is. These things will need to be addressed before the new season starts.

[MavDynasty]

lol obstructed you fucking homer

[Obstructed_View]

right right, I forgot. Blowing by Parker on his way to the rim over and over and over was great defense by Harris.

Harris' 12 ppg in that series was what you kept pointing to as evidence that he sucked enough to be traded, but now you are trying to characterize that same 12 ppg as "blowing by Parker"? By that rationale, Timmy is a sucky defender because all the Mavs scored in the paint at will. I guess I might as well stop being a homer about Timmy being a decent defender and all.

[MavDynasty]

Harris' 12 ppg in that series was what you kept pointing to as evidence that he sucked enough to be traded, but now you are trying to characterize that same 12 ppg as "blowing by Parker"? By that rationale, Timmy is a sucky defender because all the Mavs scored in the paint at will. I guess I might as well stop being a homer about Timmy being a decent defender and all.

its ok you can cry on my shoulder

[mavs>spurs2]

garbage opinion

:sleep

You suck.

[mavs>spurs2]

Dirk *IS* a great basketball player, IMO. He's just not top 10 in the league anymore.

:wtf I challenge you to name 10 players better than him. A couple of disappointing playoff runs shouldn't make a player lose status, especially when it wasn't all his fault. I guess Kobe and Nash aren't superstars :rolleyes

[ElNono]

:wtf I challenge you to name 10 players better than him. A couple of disappointing playoff runs shouldn't make a player lose status, especially when it wasn't all his fault. I guess Kobe and Nash aren't superstars :rolleyes

He's the franchise player, but just like when Garnett was in Minnesota, it's never his fault. :rolleyes

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

Dirk definitely has the talent to be better than a good amount of those guys. We've seen it a couple of years ago. We'll see with Carslile wether he can regain his best form, or if he's just standing pat. I like Carslile, and I think the Mavs needed some fresh air in the bench. But it's going to be up to Dirk to regain the lost ground.

[ludda]

^Nash and Sheed? Tmac and Arenas? How are they playing better than Dirk? I would place Dirk near the bottom of top 10, but a lot of those guys you named, I don't agree. Especially Ray Allen, Gasol and Odom who are the second/3rd options always. Look who's on their teams. I think Dirk is a flopper and soft as hell, but he's still the number one option and has delivered more than people like to say.

[ludda]

Also I think Kidd's defense is overrated, but I do think he was mishandled by Avery so it will be interesting to see next season what he can do. I'm betting that he is washed up though and a new coach without roster changes isn't going to do much. I thought Mavs might trade Josh Howard but he fucked up his value with his horrible play and off court shit.

[Findog]

[

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce No
- Paul
- West No
- Nash Hell Fuck No
- Amare Hell Fuck No
- D Howard
- Sheed Hell Fuck No

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao No
- Iverson Hell Fuck No
- TMac Hell Fuck No
- Arenas Hell Fuck No
- Garnett no
- Ray Allen Hell Fuck No
- Gasol Hell Fuck No
- Odom Hell Fuck No

[MavDynasty]

^^ :lmao

[Findog]

Seriously, it's worth arguing whether Lamar Odom is better than Dirk? WTF?

[MavDynasty]

Seriously, it's worth arguing whether Lamar Odom is better than Dirk? WTF?

and how many times has Dirk kicked Gasols Ass? lol

[Shank]

It's the "in" thing to bag on Dirk in fan circles, including among some Mavs fans.

[stretch]

You suck.

garbage

[stretch]

:wtf I challenge you to name 10 players better than him. here is my list

1.Paul Pierce
2.Paul Pierce
3.Paul Pierce
4.Paul Pierce
5.Paul Pierce
6.Paul Pierce
7.Paul Pierce
8.Paul Pierce
9.Paul Pierce
10.Paul Pierce (with me sucking his balls)



fixed

[stretch]

He's the franchise player, but just like when Garnett was in Minnesota, it's never his fault. :rolleyes

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

Dirk definitely has the talent to be better than a good amount of those guys. We've seen it a couple of years ago. We'll see with Carslile wether he can regain his best form, or if he's just standing pat. I like Carslile, and I think the Mavs needed some fresh air in the bench. But it's going to be up to Dirk to regain the lost ground.

you and mavs>spurs must be in a race to see who can pull more bullshit out their ass and right now its a close one

[mavs>spurs2]

Players better than Dirk:

Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Cp3
Pierce(questionable)
Healthy Wade(questionable)
Dwilliams(questionable)

Maybe a couple others could be considered, but hell there aren't even 5 players hands down better than dirk, much less 10. Gtfo with that shit

[stretch]

IMO the only players RIGHT NOW (not all time, so spurs fans cut the shit) that are hands down better than Dirk is Kobe and Lebron.

I personally put Duncan ahead of Dirk, but right now, I can't say hes really an obvious choice anymore, as its very obvious he is starting to break down and all those years and playoff games have been taking its toll on him. CP3 is arguable, but i need to see him do it again in the playoffs. all other players can fuck themselves.

[mavs>spurs2]

you and mavs>spurs must be in a race to see who can pull more bullshit out their ass and right now its a close one

Fuck off, douche.

[stretch]

Fuck off, douche.

no

[mavs>spurs2]

:lol k, have fun

[stretch]

:lol k, have fun

thanks

[dickface]

He's the franchise player, but just like when Garnett was in Minnesota, it's never his fault. :rolleyes

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

Dirk definitely has the talent to be better than a good amount of those guys. We've seen it a couple of years ago. We'll see with Carslile wether he can regain his best form, or if he's just standing pat. I like Carslile, and I think the Mavs needed some fresh air in the bench. But it's going to be up to Dirk to regain the lost ground.

this seriously might be the single dumbest post in SpursTalk history.

[dickface]

no wait, nsrammstein wins.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

you and mavs>spurs must be in a race to see who can pull more bullshit out their ass and right now its a close one

:lol

[Ghazi]

He's the franchise player, but just like when Garnett was in Minnesota, it's never his fault. :rolleyes

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

Dirk definitely has the talent to be better than a good amount of those guys. We've seen it a couple of years ago. We'll see with Carslile wether he can regain his best form, or if he's just standing pat. I like Carslile, and I think the Mavs needed some fresh air in the bench. But it's going to be up to Dirk to regain the lost ground.


So stupid it's not even funny. This opinion isn't based on actually watching basketball, so what the hell caused you to conclude this?

Nash, West, Sheed absolutely NOT. Did you see Sheed in the ECF? Sheed isn't even a top 20 player.

Howard, Amare, Pierce are up for debate. I would say they play at similar levels than Dirk.

Paul, Bryant, Duncan, and Lebron are the only ones I wouldn't dispute. I do believe Duncan is out of his prime and perhaps his individual productivity may no longer be as good as Dirk's, but his back to the basket style and dual end presence is still way more influential than Dirk's unconventional game.


So basically what I'm saying is Dirk is a top 5-7 player.

[stretch]

no wait, nsrammstein wins.

i dunno.

DSF and Nashfan had some pretty bad ones. DannyB too. oh yea...

dannyb

your team sucks

[ElNono]

So stupid it's not even funny. This opinion isn't based on actually watching basketball, so what the hell caused you to conclude this?

Nash, West, Sheed absolutely NOT. Did you see Sheed in the ECF? Sheed isn't even a top 20 player.


Sheed is 20x a better defender than Dirk is. He also has a post up game. He was the missing piece in the '04 pistons that put them over the top. Larry Brown said it plenty of times. I will give you that he is much more inconsistent than Dirk.
West tinkered with Dirk these playoffs. To the point he outscored him in the last two games of the series. He got in Dirk's face, and backed it up by sending him fishing. West is up and coming, but he already showed he has the balls to play and beat the best of them.
Nash not only can hit the J as consistently as Dirk can, but he can also dish assists to everyone else on the team. He can't guard anybody, but neither can Dirk (ok, I'll give you Dirk has an edge there)



Paul, Bryant, Duncan, and Lebron are the only ones I wouldn't dispute. I do believe Duncan is out of his prime and perhaps his individual productivity may no longer be as good as Dirk's, but his back to the basket style and dual end presence is still way more influential than Dirk's unconventional game.

Duncan has never been out of the playoffs in the first round. And for being out of his prime, making it all the way to the WCF is no minor accomplishment. Duncan is also a leader. He has taken completely different rosters all the way to a championship. Dirk can only wet his pants thinking about something like that.

As I said numerous times already, if you are looking at Dirk's complete career, then I would certainly say he cracks that top 10 list (even though he keeps sliding down). But the way he's playing RIGHT NOW, he's not among the top 10 players in the league.

[stretch]

West tinkered with Dirk these playoffs. To the point he outscored him in the last two games of the series. He got in Dirk's face, and backed it up by sending him fishing. West is up and coming, but he already showed he has the balls to play and beat the best of them.

West isn't even the best player on his own team. He feeds massively off the wide open shots that CP3 gets for him


Duncan has never been out of the playoffs in the first round. And for being out of his prime, making it all the way to the WCF is no minor accomplishment. Duncan is also a leader. He has taken completely different rosters all the way to a championship. Dirk can only wet his pants thinking about something like that.

Duncan has also always had a better team around him than Dirk.


As I said numerous times already, if you are looking at Dirk's complete career, then I would certainly say he cracks that top 10 list (even though he keeps sliding down). But the way he's playing RIGHT NOW, he's not among the top 10 players in the league.

um no

[mavs>spurs2]

Is this guy serious?

Sheed is a role player, incapable of leading a team by himself. He can't take over games the way Dirk can, or be the #1 option on a contender. And he'd rather shoot fadeaways and 3's than post up. His D is better, but Dirk>Sheed in every other aspect of basketball.

Please.

[ElNono]

Is this guy serious?

Sheed is a role player, incapable of leading a team by himself. He can't take over games the way Dirk can, or be the #1 option on a contender. And he'd rather shoot fadeaways and 3's than post up. His D is better, but Dirk>Sheed in every other aspect of basketball.

Please.

What Dirk 'the leader' are you talking about? That guy shrinks when the pressure is on. One of the reasons for bringing Kidd was to take over the leadership role, because Dirk didn't fit the bill.
And what meaningful games has Dirk taken over? Are you gonna go back 2 years for an example? That's not today's Dirk. He can't take over at will. He can't even extend a series to 7 games. If he could, you wouldn't have had 2 quick exits in the first round the last two seasons.

[Shank]

He's top 10. I know people far more reputable and with closer ties to the NBA and the players that can attribute to that. Just because some no-name douche on a messageboard thinks he isn't doesn't make it so. Top 10, easily.

[Boston Pancake]

Dirk is wicked good but give me Paul Peezy any day.

[Shank]

Dirk is wicked good but give me Paul Peezy any day.

You mean the guy all of Boston was shitting on for years before Ray Allen and Garnett came to town? THAT Paul Pierce?

[RonMexico]

With respect to aging PGs and the Nash/Kidd comparison:

Charles(Baltimore, Maryland): Will the Suns finally get a backup point guard? Who will it be? If the Suns struggle this year, you think it is possible that Nash is moved at the trade deadline or offseason? who would want him and what would the Suns get for him?

Luck_The_Fakers_John Hollinger: The Suns' emphasis on a backup point guard seems terribly misplaced to me. It's the cheapest position to fill and in the postseason the guy will play eight minutes a game at most.

This is my problem with Hollinger - he seems to miss the forest for the trees. Obviously, a backup point will only play limited minutes in the POs, but the point is to save your best (aging) player for the playoffs. And what about when a guy like Tyronne Lue can play some better defense if the matchup presents itself? Not like Lue is a great player, but he can be a good role player. Even Anthony Johnson would be worth a look....

[Boston Pancake]

You mean the guy all of Boston was shitting on for years before Ray Allen and Garnett came to town? THAT Paul Pierce?

Oh yeah and there weren't Mavs fans demanding a trade for KG after Dirk pussed out against the Warriors? Fuckstick.

[Shank]

Oh yeah and there weren't Mavs fans demanding a trade for KG after Dirk pussed out against the Warriors? Fuckstick.

Yes, there were.

Surround Dirk with Allen and Garnett and he'd have a ring now, too. But even in the aftermath of the fall to the Warriors, most still wanted Dirk to be the focal point of the team and not demanding that our "dahkie be shipped ahf". I like how Pierce is now better than Dirk simply because of the other stars surrounding him. Have them swap places and you'd get the same result and likely don't fart around for 7 games with the likes of the Hawks.

Shouldn't you be sucking Welkah's cahck right now, Sam Adams?

[Findog]

Oh yeah and there weren't Mavs fans demanding a trade for KG after Dirk pussed out against the Warriors?

Not this one. I'd rather have Dirk than KG. I'd rather have KG and Pierce than Dirk and Josh Howard. Basketball is a team game.

So, if we've settled anything at all, Pierce >>>>>>>>> Josh Howard.

[Boston Pancake]

Yes, there were.

Surround Dirk with Allen and Garnett and he'd have a ring now, too. But even in the aftermath of the fall to the Warriors, most still wanted Dirk to be the focal point of the team and not demanding that our "dahkie be shipped ahf". I like how Pierce is now better than Dirk simply because of the other stars surrounding him. Have them swap places and you'd get the same result and likely don't fart around for 7 games with the likes of the Hawks.

Shouldn't you be sucking Welkah's cahck right now, Sam Adams?

Lookit fuckstick, you can woulda-coulda-shoulda all you want, talk about supporting cast all you want, but the bottom line is that Pauly's got a ring and the Kraut don't. The Celtics beat every team they were supposed to beat. The Mavs were much better than the Heat and choked that shit away. You Mavs fans are wicked retarded.

[Shank]

Lookit fuckstick, you can woulda-coulda-shoulda all you want, talk about supporting cast all you want, but the bottom line is that Pauly's got a ring and the Kraut don't. The Celtics beat every team they were supposed to beat. The Mavs were much better than the Heat and choked that shit away. You Mavs fans are wicked retarded.

What was it like on the bandwagon this past season? Did you get a t-shirt?

[Boston Pancake]

What was it like on the bandwagon this past season? Did you get a t-shirt?

:lmao pathetic lace curtain ass Mavs fan don't have shit else to say, so he tries changing the subject!

[Shank]

:lmao pathetic lace curtain ass Mavs fan don't have shit else to say, so he tries changing the subject!

Oh, that's right. You're THAT guy. The one that bombards threads with lines from The Departed and goes off calling everyone "fuckstick" and "lace curtain ____". It's cute schtick, but you've done it about 50x on this board already.

I did have otherwise to say. Just a shame that you guys spend your days blowing Tom Brady instead of learning how to read.

[Boston Pancake]

Oh, that's right. You're THAT guy. The one that bombards threads with lines from The Departed and goes off calling everyone "fuckstick" and "lace curtain ____". It's cute schtick, but you've done it about 50x on this board already.

I did have otherwise to say. Just a shame that you guys spend your days blowing Tom Brady instead of learning how to read.

:lmao Mav fan trying to talk shit because he knows his team and leader choked away the chance at one of these :lobt2: say what the fuck you want, faggot, my team has one (Excuse me, more than one, they have way more than just one) and your team is full of bitches. I said Dirk was wicked good but he hasn't won shit.

[Shank]

Where was I talking shit? I stated fact. Sorry you can't go a single sentence without dropping the needless profanity (your post history proves this); maybe if you held off on that a bit you'd read what was said before your post.

Must have broken your heart to embrace that trio of "dahkies" in Mass.

[Boston Pancake]

Where was I talking shit? I stated fact. Sorry you can't go a single sentence without dropping the needless profanity (your post history proves this); maybe if you held off on that a bit you'd read what was said before your post.

Must have broken your heart to embrace that trio of "dahkies" in Mass.

Must have broken your heart to see that Kraut of yours choke away his one shot at a title in Dallas.

[Shank]

Nice comeback.

Sorry to see your last post was devoid of your usual schtick. Why didn't you use "lace curtain", "wicked", or "fuckstick"? Your game is slipping, son.

[Boston Pancake]

Nice comeback.

Sorry to see your last post was devoid of your usual schtick. Why didn't you use "lace curtain", "wicked", or "fuckstick"? Your game is slipping, son.

:lmao Pierce > The 7 Foot Nazi and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Shank]

:lmao Pierce > The 7 Foot Nazi and there's nothing you can do about it.

Nazi. That's original.

Tell me how, when putting together a team now, why you would choose Pierce over Dirk.

[Boston Pancake]

Nazi. That's original.

Tell me how, when putting together a team now, why you would choose Pierce over Dirk.

Pierce is a Finals MVP and has been part of a championship team. Dirk hasn't done either. You Mav fans don't get it, do you?

[Shank]

Pierce is a Finals MVP and has been part of a championship team. Dirk hasn't done either. You Mav fans don't get it, do you?

Wade won his first and had a better performance in his win.

By your rationale (since counting awards seems to be the only thing anyone on the East Coast knows how to do things), Dwyane Wade > Pierce by a mile.

[ElNono]

He's top 10. I know people far more reputable and with closer ties to the NBA and the players that can attribute to that. Just because some no-name douche on a messageboard thinks he isn't doesn't make it so. Top 10, easily.

He isn't top 10. I know people far more reputable and with closer ties to the NBA and the players that can attribute to that. Just because some no-name douche on a messageboard thinks he is doesn't make it so. Nowhere near a top 10.

[Findog]

Pierce is a Finals MVP and has been part of a championship team. Dirk hasn't done either. You Mav fans don't get it, do you?

Paul Pierce also had Kevin Garnett anchoring his team's defense, while Dirk had Erick Dampier. It's arguable as to which player is better now, but there's no argument that Pierce had a better supporting cast than Dirk had this year, and Dirk has been the better and more consistent performer throughout his career.

[Boston Pancake]

Wade won his first and had a better performance in his win.

That's opinion. I'd say they're both better than your 7 foot choker.


By your rationale (since counting awards seems to be the only thing anyone on the East Coast knows how to do things), Dwyane Wade > Pierce by a mile.

1=1. I'll take Pierce since he can stay healthy.

And 1>0 is just fact. I'll take a Finals MVP over a Finals Choker every time.

[Findog]

He isn't top 10. I know people far more reputable and with closer ties to the NBA and the players that can attribute to that. Just because some no-name douche on a messageboard thinks he is doesn't make it so. Nowhere near a top 10.

You're the idiot that said Gasol and Odom were better than Dirk, so why don't you just keep quiet rather than dig a deeper hole? Hell, by your rationale, Beno > Dirk.

[Boston Pancake]

Paul Pierce also had Kevin Garnett anchoring his team's defense, while Dirk had Erick Dampier.

Don't give me that crap. Your team was something like 5 minutes away from going up 3-0 on the Heat, your team was significantly better, and they choked it away. The Celtics just beat a team with a guy that many say is the best player in the world.

[Findog]

Don't give me that crap. Your team was something like 5 minutes away from going up 3-0 on the Heat, your team was significantly better, and they choked it away. The Celtics just beat a team with the best player in the world.

Kevin Garnett is a much better defensive anchor than Erick Dampier. The Mavericks choked away Game 3 of their series against the Heat. They lost the final two games by a total of 4 points. That series could've gone either way, it's just unfortunate as a Mavs fan that the Heat were the tiniest bit better than my team. I'm pretty sure if you swapped out Erick Dampier for Kevin Garnett, the Mavs would've won the title this season.

The Celtics were much better than the Lakers, Kobe or not. Anyways, I don't understand why one has to tear down one player in order to build up another. It's defensible to take Pierce over Dirk and vice versa.

[Shank]

That's opinion. I'd say they're both better than your 7 foot choker.



1=1. I'll take Pierce since he can stay healthy.

And 1>0 is just fact. I'll take a Finals MVP over a Finals Choker every time.

Cool. Keep counting awards. I'll stick to what I see on the court and what makes sense when putting together a team. Dirk is the better player - and when he's hurt, he doesn't put together some fucked up fake show, needing a wheelchair only to return minutes later.

If you take a team of 4 scrubs and combine them with either Dirk or Pierce, Dirk's team wins the majority of the time. Dispute that.

[Boston Pancake]

If you take a team of 4 scrubs and combine them with either Dirk or Pierce, Dirk's team wins the majority of the time. Dispute that.

Sorry, I'd rather not live in a fantasy world. I'll only share the reality: Both Pauly and Dirk went into the NBA Finals with the better team. Only one of them emerged with a title and a Finals MVP award.

[Findog]

Sorry, I'd rather not live in a fantasy world. I'll only share the reality: Both Pauly and Dirk went into the NBA Finals with the better team. Only one of them emerged with a title and a Finals MVP award.

Dirk had a good series against the Heat, in particular the final two games where he matched Wade. How this makes Pierce better than Dirk I don't know.

[Boston Pancake]

I only thank God that Rick Pitino didn't have to choose between the two, because chanced are he would have passed on Pauly to take Dirk, and that would have been a bigger draft day disaster than Len Bias (r.i.p.)

[Shank]

How does the better team lose a game? I never understand this. The better team always comes out on top. When your beloved Pats shit the bed in the Super Bowl, the Mavs and the Heat, the Broncos repeatedly raping those fucking New Englanders, etc. There was obviously some bullshit about Wade and the refs in 2006, but that's going to be difficult to prove in a court of law. The Heat played better.

Fuck Len Bias.

[Ghazi]

You all are so stupid.

[Boston Pancake]

:lmao is that the new Mavericks fan rallying cry? "our team wasn't that good to begin with!" :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[ElNono]

You're the idiot that said Gasol and Odom were better than Dirk, so why don't you just keep quiet rather than dig a deeper hole? Hell, by your rationale, Beno > Dirk.

I didn't say they were better, I said we could argue about that. You say Dirk is better than those two? Ok, you got it.

Now you Findog, are the one always sucking Dirk's cock. You made a living of throwing every other Mav under the bus, and poor Dirk this, poor Dirk that. That he was injured. That he plays alone. That Avery doesn't play him right. That the system doesn't favor him. That we all should live in 2006.
Reality check:
- He can't guard anybody.
- He can't post anybody, even though he has the size and length.
- He can't lead anybody.

But hey, he has a sweet jumper!

Now, I've been telling you this for the good part of two years: He's soft, he chokes, and he can't lead. And I'm willing to put money down you wanted him to go past at least the first round the last two seasons to silence me, and everybody else that called him that. But you know what? He *IS* soft, he *DOES* choke, and he *CANT* lead.

Now everybody was bitching that it was the system. That Avery was the problem. Well, now he has a brand new coach, that will have a full training camp. No more excuses. And I don't care if they win 80 games in the regular season. I want to see the playoffs. I want to see this guy PLAYING like a Top 10 player in the league. Until then, he's going to be the same old softie and choker...

[Shank]

:lmao is that the new Mavericks fan rallying cry? "our team wasn't that good to begin with!" :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Who said that? They were plenty good to get to where they did.

[mavs>spurs2]

The Celtics were much better than the Lakers, Kobe or not. Anyways, I don't understand why one has to tear down one player in order to build up another. It's defensible to take Pierce over Dirk and vice versa.

Thanks.

Now relay this message to stretch!!

[Shank]

I didn't say they were better, I said we could argue about that. You say Dirk is better than those two? Ok, you got it.

Now you Findog, are the one always sucking Dirk's cock. You made a living of throwing every other Mav under the bus, and poor Dirk this, poor Dirk that. That he was injured. That he plays alone. That Avery doesn't play him right. That the system doesn't favor him. That we all should live in 2006.
Reality check:
- He can't guard anybody.
- He can't post anybody, even though he has the size and length.
- He can't lead anybody.

But hey, he has a sweet jumper!

Now, I've been telling you this for the good part of two years: He's soft, he chokes, and he can't lead. And I'm willing to put money down you wanted him to go past at least the first round the last two seasons to silence me, and everybody else that called him that. But you know what? He *IS* soft, he *DOES* choke, and he *CANT* lead.

Now everybody was bitching that it was the system. That Avery was the problem. Well, now he has a brand new coach, that will have a full training camp. No more excuses. And I don't care if they win 80 games in the regular season. I want to see the playoffs. I want to see this guy PLAYING like a Top 10 player in the league. Until then, he's going to be the same old softie and choker...

Ah yes...the "soft choker" dubbing once again. Dirk, the same guy that lost his front teeth and returned seconds later. The same guy that plays on rubber ankles year-round and returned weeks earlier from a bad injury this past season (unlike Gasol, who nursed his for weeks). People that call him this bullshit only take a small sample of what they want to see and don't look at the big picture that is his career thus far.

How would anyone around here know if the can can lead or not? You're not there everyday. It's bullshit to say that.

[Findog]

I didn't say they were better, I said we could argue about that. Even that says all we need to know about your basketball acumen.

I never said Dirk is blameless for the Mavs playoff exits, or that he is the best player in the game, or that he doesn't have flaws. I've simply defended him against the soft choker card. He's not a soft choker.



Now, I've been telling you this for the good part of two years: He's soft, he chokes, and he can't lead.

Dirk isn't soft. I don't understand this at all. The other two can be debated, but not the soft label. Seriously, what makes Dirk soft?


And I'm willing to put money down you wanted him to go past at least the first round the last two seasons to silence me, and everybody else that called him that.

Dirk played great against New Orleans. But guess what, the Hornets were much better than the Mavericks. KG is the same player in Boston that he was in Minnesota, and I wouldn't call him a choker, but plenty of others have. All of the sudden KG gets his non-clutch label retired because Pierce broke down the Lakers defense? It doesn't work that way. Dirk doesn't have to beat the Hornets to shed that label.



But you know what? He *IS* soft, he *DOES* choke, and he *CANT* lead.

But you know what? You *ARE* an idiot if you think the following players are better than Dirk:

- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- Sheed

Seriously, it's 2008, not 2006 anymore. You can take that pole out of your ass where Dirk is concerned.




Now everybody was bitching that it was the system. That Avery was the problem. Well, now he has a brand new coach, that will have a full training camp. No more excuses. And I don't care if they win 80 games in the regular season. I want to see the playoffs. I want to see this guy PLAYING like a Top 10 player in the league. Until then, he's going to be the same old softie and choker...

The Mavs are not an elite team anymore, and unless they revamp their roster, that won't change next year. Paul Pierce is the same damn player as he was last year, but he had a much better team around him this season. It's insane the way Dirk gets ALL of the blame for the Mavs shortcomings, and he's expected to lead a non-elite team to a title in order to get vindication. There's about 10-12 teams better than Dallas now.

[Spur-Addict]

You gotta love what a ring will do for you. If this was three years ago I wonder what the poll results would be? Dirk please, and thank you.

[Findog]

You gotta love what a ring will do for you. If this was three years ago I wonder what the poll results would be? Dirk please, and thank you.

Paul Pierce can't anchor a defense the way that Kevin Garnett can. And Garnett can't be a crunch-time scorer and create the way Pierce can. Together they did what alone they could not.

[ElNono]

Ah yes...the "soft choker" dubbing once again. Dirk, the same guy that lost his front teeth and returned seconds later. The same guy that plays on rubber ankles year-round and returned weeks earlier from a bad injury this past season (unlike Gasol, who nursed his for weeks). People that call him this bullshit only take a small sample of what they want to see and don't look at the big picture that is his career thus far.

How would anyone around here know if the can can lead or not? You're not there everyday. It's bullshit to say that.

Dirk, the same guy that got bitchslapped by David West, and not only he didn't react, he bend over and took it up the ass for the rest of the series. You think you can do anything like that to Kobe, Amare, Shaq, shit... even Jason Kidd, and not have an instant brawl there?
The same Dirk that got posterized by none other than Matt fucking Barnes. I still remember the excuses after the game. That Matt Barnes was a stud...
Some of you Mavs fans are funny.

[Shank]

Dirk, the same guy that got bitchslapped by David West, and not only he didn't react, he bend over and took it up the ass for the rest of the series. You think you can do anything like that to Kobe, Amare, Shaq, shit... even Jason Kidd, and not have an instant brawl there?
The same Dirk that got posterized by none other than Matt fucking Barnes. I still remember the excuses after the game. That Matt Barnes was a stud...
Some of you Mavs fans are funny.

Oh, this shit again. So, tell me - if Dirk retaliates and punches West, then what happens? He's suspended for 2-3 games. What kind of leadership does that exhibit? Dirk was the team's best player in that series. What sense would it have made to be suspended for a senseless retaliation?

Posterized? Bringing that dumb term up? Posterized? Should we find the one of Lebron shoving his junk down Duncan's throat? You want to make a big deal out of guys dunking on others?

[RonMexico]

Am I missing the point of all this arguing? We all knew that Paul Pierce was a baller after their previous ECF Finals run that fell short. Just because the guy decided to take a few years off because he was surrounded by terrible players doesn't mean he can't take it up a notch. Also, KG wasn't able to relieve some of the pressure off himself in big games until he had a clutch scorer and great role players next to him.

Dirk isn't surrounded by the worst players either, but he's not really surrounded by the right ones to win a championship. Dirk is in KG's Minnesota position: has players that might get him there, but probably won't take him over the top. I'll admit that Dirk has choked in the past and really didn't step up in the '06 Finals to win a title and I've repeatedly ripped on him for this. But he also has a lot of pressure on him to be THE MAN, much like KG did in Minny and he's fallen short.

When you take a step back and look at the bigger picture of the past few Finals, you realize that guys like Payton and Posey stepped up around D-Wade and the Spurs had a 3 headed monster of Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker for their titles. It's probably something as simple as Dirk feeling monster pressure to do it all by himself (in his 100th game of the season or more) and not being able to trust his teammates completely.

Look at the two teams and you can argue that Boston has an advantage at each position, with factors such as clutch play, heart, skill, and experience playing roles:

Pierce > Howard
Perkins > Dampier
Allen > Terry
Posey > George
House > Stackhouse
Brown > Magloire
Powe = Bass
Kidd > Rondo (but they have different roles on their respective teams, so it's somewhat of a wash.)

I don't need to go much further to see why KG has a better supporting cast than Dirk, which then has allowed him to finally capture a title without as much pressure squared on his shoulders. I'm not saying that if you put Dirk in the middle of Pierce, Allen, and company in Beantown that he would automatically have a title, but those Larry Bird comparisons would probably increase in frequency. You can't really quantify the intesnity that KG brings which obviously rubbed off on his teammates; still, if KG were in Dallas and yelled at Jason Terry when he blew the assignment on Nash in 2005, would we criticize him as much for being a bad leader?

[Findog]

[QUOTE=ElNono;2636356]Dirk, the same guy that got bitchslapped by David West, and not only he didn't react, he bend over and took it up the ass for the rest of the series.

You sure about that kid? Did you watch the NOLA-Dallas series?



The same Dirk that got posterized by none other than Matt fucking Barnes. I still remember the excuses after the game. That Matt Barnes was a stud...
Some of you Mavs fans are funny.

So if you get posterized by a scrub, then you're a bad player?

http://thestartingfive.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ssm-starphs016003.jpg


Spur fan still has a sore ass over 2006. Damn, I woulda thought a fourth ring would've eased that pain...Guess not.

[Shank]

Dirk, the same guy that got bitchslapped by David West, and not only he didn't react, he bend over and took it up the ass for the rest of the series.

Dirk v. New Orleans:

31/10
27/5/5
32/19/6
22/13
22/13/6

Yeah, "took it up the ass". Do you even watch basketball? Or do you just repeat the Spurs Sheep mantras like the others?

[Findog]

Dirk v. New Orleans:

31/10
27/5/5
32/19/6
22/13
22/13/6

Yeah, "took it up the ass". Do you even watch basketball? Or do you just repeat the Spurs Sheep mantras like the others?

ElNono is the 21 Blessings of Spurs fans.

[ElNono]

Even that says all we need to know about your basketball acumen.


You're a fucking Mavs fan. And a Dirk lover at that. Tells us ALL we need to know about your basketball acumen.



I never said Dirk is blameless for the Mavs playoff exits, or that he is the best player in the game, or that he doesn't have flaws. I've simply defended him against the soft choker card. He's not a soft choker.


Oh yeah you did. If there's ONE Mav fan on this board that gives Dirk a pass on anything, that would be you. There's always an excuse at hand when it comes to Dirk. Like I said, been reading this for two seasons already.



Dirk isn't soft. I don't understand this at all. The other two can be debated, but not the soft label. Seriously, what makes Dirk soft?


PAreNz25wqE



Dirk played great against New Orleans. But guess what, the Hornets were much better than the Mavericks. KG is the same player in Boston that he was in Minnesota, and I wouldn't call him a choker, but plenty of others have. All of the sudden KG gets his non-clutch label retired because Pierce broke down the Lakers defense? It doesn't work that way. Dirk doesn't have to beat the Hornets to shed that label.

Actually, if you watched the entire East playoffs and not just the Finals, KG still is a choker. He got bailed out by Pierce.



But you know what? You *ARE* an idiot if you think the following players are better than Dirk:

- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- Sheed


The last four I actually think are playing better than Dirk now. I actually explained why 3 of those 4 are playing better. The rest I said we could argue about. Let me put my top 10 better than Dirk list again, to refresh your memory:
In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed



The Mavs are not an elite team anymore, and unless they revamp their roster, that won't change next year. Paul Pierce is the same damn player as he was last year, but he had a much better team around him this season. It's insane the way Dirk gets ALL of the blame for the Mavs shortcomings, and he's expected to lead a non-elite team to a title in order to get vindication. There's about 10-12 teams better than Dallas now.

Another 'poor Dirk, so unjust he gets all the blame'... See what I'm talking about?

[Findog]

Oh yeah you did. If there's ONE Mav fan on this board that gives Dirk a pass on anything, that would be you. There's always an excuse at hand when it comes to Dirk. Like I said, been reading this for two seasons already.

Then you can't read either.




PAreNz25wqE

Are you fucking serious? He bitchslaps West by tattoing him for 27 and 12 the rest of the series, he came back from a high ankle sprain after 10 days and you call him soft? You might be even dumber than 21 Blessings. I've won this argument by default, so thanks for the sparring practice.

[Ghazi]

ElNono, you're embarrassing yourself.

[ElNono]

Dirk v. New Orleans:

31/10
27/5/5
32/19/6
22/13
22/13/6

Yeah, "took it up the ass". Do you even watch basketball? Or do you just repeat the Spurs Sheep mantras like the others?

Now let's put David West numbers right next to it:

Dirk West
-------------------------
31/10 23/8/3/4
27/5/5 27/4/5
32/19/6 14/9/3
22/13 24/9/2/1
22/13/6 25/7/4/3

That's West, the 'nobody'. So yeah, he DID take it up the ass.

[Findog]

Now let's put David West numbers right next to it:

Dirk West
-------------------------
31/10 23/8/3/4
27/5/5 27/4/5
32/19/6 14/9/3
22/13 24/9/2/1
22/13/6 25/7/4/3

That's West, the 'nobody'. So yeah, he DID take it up the ass.

lol, 21 Blessings.

[ElNono]

Then you can't read either.

I can read. Like you were telling us Spurs fans that we were getting faceraped (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2468953&postcount=68) by New Orleans. Luckily for us, we actually have a leader. But you wouldn't know what a leader looks like anyways.



Are you fucking serious? He bitchslaps West by tattoing him for 27 and 12 the rest of the series, he came back from a high ankle sprain after 10 days and you call him soft? You might be even dumber than 21 Blessings. I've won this argument by default, so thanks for the sparring practice.

Here we go again... 'he was injured'... that's why he lets people bitchslap him. And West outscored him in the last 2 games of the series, and pretty much played on par with him the entire series.

[monosylab1k]

put Dirk on Boston in place of Pierce and the Celtics sweep the Lakers. Put Dirk on the Lakers in place of Gasol and the Lakers beat the Celtics in 5.

[z0sa]

put Dirk on Boston in place of Pierce and the Celtics sweep the Lakers. Put Dirk on the Lakers in place of Gasol and the Lakers beat the Celtics in 5.

Put Dirk in place of the Finals MVP, they dont even make it to the finals, and the Hawks probably beat them.

Putting Dirk on the Lakers would only weaken their defense, and eliminate the only real post presence they have. They would probably get swept.

Lose-lose, not win-win.

[bostonguy]

Then you can't read either.





Are you fucking serious? He bitchslaps West by tattoing him for 27 and 12 the rest of the series, he came back from a high ankle sprain after 10 days and you call him soft? You might be even dumber than 21 Blessings. I've won this argument by default, so thanks for the sparring practice.


I really dont get the Dirk hate. It is hard to win when you have players that arent good enough to help you win a championship. When your 2nd option (Josh Howard) goes MIA in the 4th quarter, that really doesnt make things any easier. Plus teams threw those random blindsided double teams at Dirk. What Dirk is now dealing with is total bullshit. This guy came back much earlier from an ankle sprain to get his team into the playoffs. Dirk showed up every game vs NO and gave it his all. Hell without Dirks gutsy play...Mavs lose every game by 30 plus and get swept. You cant ask 1 guy to do it all. Dirk needs 2 consistent scorers by his side to take pressure off of him. Due to Howard going MIA in 4th quarters and the constant double teams, that leaves Dirk with role players who cant really create their own shot to win the game. Dirk needs 2 consistent scorers by his side to help him out. Duncan dealt with that during the early 2000's and Pierce dealt with this outside of this season.

Dirk is a top 5 player in this league and will finish top 10 easily when it is all said and done.

[monosylab1k]

Put Dirk in place of the Finals MVP, they dont even make it to the finals, and the Hawks probably beat them.

Putting Dirk on the Lakers would only weaken their defense, and eliminate the only real post presence they have. They would probably get swept.

Lose-lose, not win-win.
not even close. you're a fucking moron if you believe that.

[Shank]

Now let's put David West numbers right next to it:

Dirk West
-------------------------
31/10 23/8/3/4
27/5/5 27/4/5
32/19/6 14/9/3
22/13 24/9/2/1
22/13/6 25/7/4/3

That's West, the 'nobody'. So yeah, he DID take it up the ass.

21 Blessings to a "T".

[ElNono]

21 Blessings to a "T".

You can call me any names... Just goes to show how weak your arguments are.
I'm still waiting to hear how is Dirk this great leader... What does he do so well outside his jumper... How is Mr reigning NBA MVP matched and sent fishing by a dude that according to most Mavs fans here is not even a League's top 10?
Where the heck was this vagina when Golden State was making history by ridiculing his team and sending him packing to Australia, or whatever the hell he went to...

But I understand. It's easier to call me names than face reality.

[Shank]

You post this list:

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

and then have the balls to say that someone else's argument is weak? You talk shit about Dirk supposedly pussing out in the NO series, we come back with numbers to dispute otherwise and you say that someone else's argument is weak? You talk shit about players being "posterized" as though that's some measure of their career then say that someone else's argument is weak? You throw out the bullshit blanket statement that Dirk is a "soft choker" without giving further details as to why you would believe something so asinine and then say that someone else's argument is weak?

Son, namecalling or not, you've already been bitchslapped 50 different ways in this thread. You bring up the same tired exhibits and we're forced to show you the light in a number of different ways, but you still don't get it. Instead, you'd rather focus on the loss to the Heat and the Warriors as though we haven't heard every possible take on what happened in those series.

I noticed you managed to leave Manu off your top 20 list (or whatever the fuck you want to call it). Why is that? I know that I, even as a fan of the Mavericks, can make an argument that Manu is better than a number of players on that list and deserves to be mentioned. But you, for some reason, left him off. Very curious.

[ElNono]

You post this list:

In no particular order, players playing better than him right now:
- Lebron
- Kobe
- Duncan
- Pierce
- Paul
- West
- Nash
- Amare
- D Howard
- Sheed

Other players we can argue about:
- Yao
- Iverson
- TMac
- Arenas
- Garnett
- Ray Allen
- Gasol
- Odom

and then have the balls to say that someone else's argument is weak?

The 3 or 4 names anybody disputed from the Top 10 list, I already explained why they're there, and I'm still waiting for a counter argument...
So far it's been calling me names but not putting forth the arguments...



You talk shit about Dirk supposedly pussing out in the NO series, we come back with numbers to dispute otherwise and you say that someone else's argument is weak?
And I countered with more numbers showing how he was matched by a guy that apparently is not even a Top 10 player in the League by your own admission. After getting bitchslapped you would think he wanted to teach this guy a lesson... I guess not.



You talk shit about players being "posterized" as though that's some measure of their career then say that someone else's argument is weak?

Oh it's not the fact that he got posterized by a bad player. What was hilarious back then was fans like you calling Matt Barnes a stud after it.


You throw out the bullshit blanket statement that Dirk is a "soft choker" without giving further details as to why you would believe something so asinine and then say that someone else's argument is weak?
Do you really need me to repeat what you've been hearing since the 2006 Finals? The only person that will remove those labels from him is himself. Getting out of the first round would help a lot with that...



Son, namecalling or not, you've already been bitchslapped 50 different ways in this thread. You bring up the same tired exhibits and we're forced to show you the light in a number of different ways, but you still don't get it. Instead, you'd rather focus on the loss to the Heat and the Warriors as though we haven't heard every possible take on what happened in those series.
Actually I also brought up the NO series. I countered pretty much every of your points throughout the thread, and pretty much they've gone unquestioned.
Feel free to start answering some of the questions I posted earlier in this thread...



I noticed you managed to leave Manu off your top 20 list (or whatever the fuck you want to call it). Why is that? I know that I, even as a fan of the Mavericks, can make an argument that Manu is better than a number of players on that list and deserves to be mentioned. But you, for some reason, left him off. Very curious.

I mentioned plenty of times already that the list is based on how they're playing right now, not career overall. While Manu had a great regular season, he didn't have a great playoffs. So he's obviously not in the list...

[z0sa]

not even close. you're a fucking moron if you believe that.

Believe with all my heart, but of course anyone who has a different opinion than you is a fucking moron.

I hate to play your stupid games, but I honestly inquire: you think Dirk could have anchored the middle against Boston any better than Pau? Perhaps guarded KG? I laugh at the very thought.

So you must at least agree the Lakers don't benefit, very minimum.

[Ghazi]

Dirk would take more shots than Pau, score more points than Pau, and probably his presence alone would escalate Kobe's performance. Dirk wouldn't be able to guard KG (as if KG was posting up that much in the series? he shot 41%), but KG would be incapable of guarding Dirk as well (look up dem stats).

I love how one poster refers to Dirk as a jump shooter only, even though he gets to the line 7-8 times per game and averages around 8-9 rebounds a year. How can a jump shooter get to the line that much and rebound that much? You also disregard his above average passing skills.

The Dirk hate is some sort of xenophobia or jealousy or something.

[Shank]

The 3 or 4 names anybody disputed from the Top 10 list, I already explained why they're there, and I'm still waiting for a counter argument...
So far it's been calling me names but not putting forth the arguments...


And I countered with more numbers showing how he was matched by a guy that apparently is not even a Top 10 player in the League by your own admission. After getting bitchslapped you would think he wanted to teach this guy a lesson... I guess not.


Oh it's not the fact that he got posterized by a bad player. What was hilarious back then was fans like you calling Matt Barnes a stud after it.



Do you really need me to repeat what you've been hearing since the 2006 Finals? The only person that will remove those labels from him is himself. Getting out of the first round would help a lot with that...


Actually I also brought up the NO series. I countered pretty much every of your points throughout the thread, and pretty much they've gone unquestioned.
Feel free to start answering some of the questions I posted earlier in this thread...



I mentioned plenty of times already that the list is based on how they're playing right now, not career overall. While Manu had a great regular season, he didn't have a great playoffs. So he's obviously not in the list...

This is awesome! You take the time to do that little bullshit messageboard thing where you attempt to break down every one of my bulletpoints. Only thing is - all of your arguments are so weak and flawed that you didn't even accomplish anything. I don't think I've seen anything like it. I applaud you, sir.


And I countered with more numbers showing how he was matched by a guy that apparently is not even a Top 10 player in the League by your own admission. After getting bitchslapped you would think he wanted to teach this guy a lesson... I guess not.


"Teach this guy a lesson" - and this means what? Scoring 50 a game? 60? Dirk's numbers were plenty. Wasn't it you that suggested earlier that Dirk retaliate and fight West on the court? I believe it was. Tell us, what happens if Dirk does that? Does he build more cred in your eyes? What happens to the team?

Your list is flawed because you want it to be Top 10 players in the league based on how "they're playing right now". What sense does that make? You list Nash, Rasheed and Arenas among others. Just how well is Arenas playing right now? Yao?


Oh it's not the fact that he got posterized by a bad player. What was hilarious back then was fans like you calling Matt Barnes a stud after it.


Show me where I said that and I'll give you credit for that.


Do you really need me to repeat what you've been hearing since the 2006 Finals? The only person that will remove those labels from him is himself. Getting out of the first round would help a lot with that...


So, if he gets out of the 1st round he sheds all those labels? Let's ignore the fact that Dirk was better this season than even in his MVP year. That he was working under a lame duck coach and had personnel around him that would rather party and smoke weed than try to win a playoff series. These aren't excuses for him because he was good enough to put all that aside and still raise his game. This is a testament to how hard he works and the passion he has. Just because you don't see him in damned Gatorade or Nike commercial doesn't mean he doesn't bust his ass and love the game as much as the others. In more ways, he works harder.

And again, back to your list. A number of the guys supposedly playing better than him "right now" have failed to make it out of the 1st round themselves. One guy in particular, Tracy McGrady, has never made it. But you knew that already. If Dirk has those labels because he can't get his team out of the 1st round, then what's said about McGrady, Yao? And can we assume that Gasol is no longer a "soft choker" because of his postseason accomplishments this year?


I mentioned plenty of times already that the list is based on how they're playing right now, not career overall. While Manu had a great regular season, he didn't have a great playoffs. So he's obviously not in the list...


Technically, no one is playing right now, but we'll ignore that for your sake. When anyone makes a list of Top 10 players in the league, must they also make the caveat that it's how "they're playing right now"? Maybe you should stick to weekly individual player power rankings as that seems to be your calling. You come up with this bullshit list and then back away, saying it's based on playoff performances. And then you proceed to list some of the guys I've already brought up - Nash, Gasol, Arenas, Yao. So which is it, man?

You're all over the place, scrambling to save face. Admit you're full of shit and you don't know what you're talking about and we'll be done with it.

:bking

[z0sa]

Dirk would take more shots than Pau, score more points than Pau, and probably his presence alone would escalate Kobe's performance. Dirk wouldn't be able to guard KG (as if KG was posting up that much in the series? he shot 41%), but KG would be incapable of guarding Dirk as well (look up dem stats).

Eh, more emphasis on 'anchoring the middle.' Because that's what the Lakers needed most: defense in the middle. You do remember Ray Allen blowing by Sasha Vujacic for an easy layup in Game 4, right? Dirk is the opposite of interior defense.

I love how you say his presence alone would escalate Kobe, when you can't honestly prove in any way, shape, or form that his performance would escalate Kobe's any higher than Pau already has done so. While we're in the realm of fantasy, I'll just say Pau guarded KG much better than Dirk ever could, so KG goes off and maybe even wins Finals MVP should Dirk replace Pau.



I love how one poster refers to Dirk as a jump shooter only, even though he gets to the line 7-8 times per game and averages around 8-9 rebounds a year. How can a jump shooter get to the line that much and rebound that much? You also disregard his above average passing skills.

The Dirk hate is some sort of xenophobia or jealousy or something.

What do you call someone who's go-to move is an isolation at the top of the key for a fadeaway? A jumpshooter. He's 7 feet tall. He should be grabbing that many rebounds. He should probably even board more, honestly.

[monosylab1k]

think Dirk could have anchored the middle against Boston any better than Pau? Perhaps guarded KG?

Yes to both. Did you just start watching basketball this year? Well I'll inform you that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, a year ago, and for years before that, Kevin Garnett played in the Western Conference. Shocker, I know. And Dirk regularly kicked KG's ass up and down the court when they were both in the WC. In fact, if you do a little research you'll see that they even met up in the playoffs. Guess which team swept the other one? Guess who played better between KG and Dirk? It wasn't even close. Dirk DOMINATED Garnett.

[ElNono]

"Teach this guy a lesson" - and this means what? Scoring 50 a game? 60? Dirk's numbers were plenty. Wasn't it you that suggested earlier that Dirk retaliate and fight West on the court? I believe it was. Tell us, what happens if Dirk does that? Does he build more cred in your eyes? What happens to the team?


That means dishing a can of ass whooping on the guy, including sending his team packing for the season. If he would have lost against guys like Kobe, Duncan... I can understand. But he turned into a giant vagina against guys like Stephen Jackson and David West. He has zero credibility at this point. That's why the media write things like:
"There was an element of toughness and leadership that had been missing in Dallas, and team officials believe Kidd transforms them." (LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-kiddtraded021308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns))

Which is basically an admission that the franchise player doesn't bring any of those.



Your list is flawed because you want it to be Top 10 players in the league based on how "they're playing right now". What sense does that make? You list Nash, Rasheed and Arenas among others. Just how well is Arenas playing right now? Yao?


I don't see people complaining about weekly/monthly MVP rankings during the season. That list is no different than this one.I only have Nash and Rasheed on my Top 10 list, and they are playing better than Dirk. Explained why already, but you didn't bother to bring any counter argument.



Show me where I said that and I'll give you credit for that.


This straight from The Dallas Morning News blog:

Barnes' hammy could be big deal
12:26 PM Thu, May 03, 2007 | Permalink
Tim MacMahon E-mail News tips
Matt Barnes' strained hamstring isn't getting major play in the media, but it's a huge blow to the Warriors if Barnes can't go full blast.

Barnes has been a stud this series, and I'm not just talking about him knocking down clutch 3s. The Tattooed Terror deserves a lot of credit for Dirk's struggles.

If Barnes is gimpy, that's one less active body Nellie can throw at Dirk. That could be especially important if Dirk can draw a couple of quick fouls on Stephen Jackson.


The link for that article was:
http://mavs.beloblog.com/archives/2007/05/barnes_hammy_could_be_big_deal.html

but it has been deleted now. You can use google cache to view it.



So, if he gets out of the 1st round he sheds all those labels? Let's ignore the fact that Dirk was better this season than even in his MVP year. That he was working under a lame duck coach and had personnel around him that would rather party and smoke weed than try to win a playoff series. These aren't excuses for him because he was good enough to put all that aside and still raise his game. This is a testament to how hard he works and the passion he has. Just because you don't see him in damned Gatorade or Nike commercial doesn't mean he doesn't bust his ass and love the game as much as the others. In more ways, he works harder.


Getting out of the first round would help these days. Doing anything right in the playoffs would actually help. And his numbers don't mean shit when you can't win the series. You're basically admitting that he can't make his teammates better. Some leader you got there.



And again, back to your list. A number of the guys supposedly playing better than him "right now" have failed to make it out of the 1st round themselves. One guy in particular, Tracy McGrady, has never made it. But you knew that already. If Dirk has those labels because he can't get his team out of the 1st round, then what's said about McGrady, Yao? And can we assume that Gasol is no longer a "soft choker" because of his postseason accomplishments this year?

I said getting out of the 1st round would help. Doesn't mean he'll shred them off by just doing that, but it would certainly be better than to keep coming short. Gasol is still soft. He just has a post game, which complements well with perimeter players like Kobe. Unlike your team which basically has no interior presence whatsoever. Still, none of the guys you mentioned above are on my Top 10 list.



Technically, no one is playing right now, but we'll ignore that for your sake. When anyone makes a list of Top 10 players in the league, must they also make the caveat that it's how "they're playing right now"? Maybe you should stick to weekly individual player power rankings as that seems to be your calling. You come up with this bullshit list and then back away, saying it's based on playoff performances. And then you proceed to list some of the guys I've already brought up - Nash, Gasol, Arenas, Yao. So which is it, man?


Nash is the only guy on my Top 10 list. I already explained why he's better than Dirk. I still don't see you making a counter point to my claims. As far as the rest you mention, I said we can argue about it.



You're all over the place, scrambling to save face. Admit you're full of shit and you don't know what you're talking about and we'll be done with it.

I'm still here. You keep attacking my list, but bring no counterpoints.
Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...

[stretch]

elnono is a fucking dumbass

[MavDynasty]

That means dishing a can of ass whooping on the guy, including sending his team packing for the season. If he would have lost against guys like Kobe, Duncan... I can understand. But he turned into a giant vagina against guys like Stephen Jackson and David West. He has zero credibility at this point. That's why the media write things like:
"There was an element of toughness and leadership that had been missing in Dallas, and team officials believe Kidd transforms them." (LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-kiddtraded021308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns))

Which is basically an admission that the franchise player doesn't bring any of those.



I don't see people complaining about weekly/monthly MVP rankings during the season. That list is no different than this one.I only have Nash and Rasheed on my Top 10 list, and they are playing better than Dirk. Explained why already, but you didn't bother to bring any counter argument.



This straight from The Dallas Morning News blog:

Barnes' hammy could be big deal
12:26 PM Thu, May 03, 2007 | Permalink
Tim MacMahon E-mail News tips
Matt Barnes' strained hamstring isn't getting major play in the media, but it's a huge blow to the Warriors if Barnes can't go full blast.

Barnes has been a stud this series, and I'm not just talking about him knocking down clutch 3s. The Tattooed Terror deserves a lot of credit for Dirk's struggles.

If Barnes is gimpy, that's one less active body Nellie can throw at Dirk. That could be especially important if Dirk can draw a couple of quick fouls on Stephen Jackson.


The link for that article was:
http://mavs.beloblog.com/archives/2007/05/barnes_hammy_could_be_big_deal.html

but it has been deleted now. You can use google cache to view it.



Getting out of the first round would help these days. Doing anything right in the playoffs would actually help. And his numbers don't mean shit when you can't win the series. You're basically admitting that he can't make his teammates better. Some leader you got there.


I said getting out of the 1st round would help. Doesn't mean he'll shred them off by just doing that, but it would certainly be better than to keep coming short. Gasol is still soft. He just has a post game, which complements well with perimeter players like Kobe. Unlike your team which basically has no interior presence whatsoever. Still, none of the guys you mentioned above are on my Top 10 list.



Nash is the only guy on my Top 10 list. I already explained why he's better than Dirk. I still don't see you making a counter point to my claims. As far as the rest you mention, I said we can argue about it.



I'm still here. You keep attacking my list, but bring no counterpoints.
Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...


Wow just shut the fuck up

[ElNono]

If you replace Dirk for Gasol on the Lakers, you destroy the Lakers offense, simply because Gasol's function is to draw people in the interior since he has a post up game, freeing the perimeter players like Kobe, Fisher and Sasha. Dirk would just be another perimeter player and basically prevent the Lakers from playing inside-out. Defensively, it's a wash.
Now if you replace Dirk for Pierce in Boston, you create a matchup hell. Who guards Kobe Bryant? Ray Allen? Dirk?

[Shank]

I like how Elnono thinks I'm Tim McMahon and doesn't know the meaning of the word "counterpoints" when I clearly disputed all of his bullshit claims.

Dude, you're making an ass out of yourself.

[ElNono]

elnono is a fucking dumbass

Wow just shut the fuck up

Exactly the replies I expect. You guys can attack me all you want, I don't care.

[Findog]

Dirk must've forgotten to give ElNono a courtesy reach around. What bitterness.

The Hornets were decisively better than the Mavericks. Dirk can't beat them by himself. Kobe couldn't get out of the first round with a subpar supporting cast. He made the Finals with a decent one. Paul Pierce couldn't elevate Boston into anything special without Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. Kevin Garnett couldn't get out of the first round in Minnesota without Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. If those guys get passes for a lack of team success, then I don't see why Dirk doesn't get one as well.

ElNono, nobody is saying Dirk is Bill Russell when it comes to defense, but the defensive scouting report on him needs to be updated: He's a decent help defender, he will give up his body to lay hard fouls, and he will give up his body to contest shots at the rim. Simply saying "he can't guard" anybody is not the complete story.

Saying he "can't post anybody up" misses the point. His back to the basket game is mediocre. His spin move is slow, he's too lanky and clumsy to outmanuever guys in the post. He has worked on a post game and it's never come close in efficiency and effectiveness of his perimeter game. He's a 2 in a 4's body and has a unique skillset. Tim Duncan has a decent jumper, but you don't want him shooting those all game long instead of banging in the post. In the case of Dirk, you don't want him trying to post up guys when he's at his deadliest getting the ball on the wing and being isolated one on one. He's been a top 5-7 player in the league without the post game of a Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard. And it's not like he hasn't tried to add that facet to his game, it's simply never going to be the weapon that his shooting and drive skills are.

You're either a troll or just incredibly bitter over 2006.

[stretch]

Exactly the replies I expect. You guys can attack me all you want, I don't care.

then why did you reply?

[ElNono]

I like how Elnono thinks I'm Tim McMahon and doesn't know the meaning of the word "counterpoints" when I clearly disputed all of his bullshit claims.


I said fans like you. Tim McMahon is a homer just like you.
And I answered all your counterpoints, and asked some more questions.
Are you going to answer them?



Dude, you're making an ass out of yourself.
I know what I'm doing, thank you. Are you going to answer or you're just going to keep on telling me what to do?

[Shank]

Exactly the replies I expect. You guys can attack me all you want, I don't care.

We can tell by the pickle wearing a top hat in your avatar that you don't care.

But we can also tell by your idiotic 'Top 10 players at noon on Tuesdays in March while the moon is in the 3rd cycle and Saved by the Bell: The College Years is on TBS and I'm wearing a buttplug' list and the fact that you don't even watch enough basketball to know your claims about Dirk are asinine that you don't care, either.

If you really don't care, then we'll get mono to come in here and call you a few more names. That should do it.

[Shank]

I said fans like you. Tim McMahon is a homer just like you.
And I answered all your counterpoints, and asked some more questions.
Are you going to answer them?


I know what I'm doing, thank you. Are you going to answer or you're just going to keep on telling me what to do?

Tim McMahon isn't a homer. In fact, I know Tim and can say that with 100% certainty.

It's funny how you think you've earned the right to have me answer your stupid questions without you doing the same for mine. You actually think I respect your opinions enough to opine on your silliness?

[ElNono]

Dirk must've forgotten to give ElNono a courtesy reach around. What bitterness.

It's not bitterness. I just call it the way I see it. You know, if I'm wrong, I'd like to hear why. This post is actually an excellent example of the type of conversation I wanted to have. We have had conversations like this with you before, even though we didn't agree about Dirk.



The Hornets were decisively better than the Mavericks. Dirk can't beat them by himself. Kobe couldn't get out of the first round with a subpar supporting cast. He made the Finals with a decent one. Paul Pierce couldn't elevate Boston into anything special without Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. Kevin Garnett couldn't get out of the first round in Minnesota without Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. If those guys get passes for a lack of team success, then I don't see why Dirk doesn't get one as well.


They were the better team, and I addressed the Mavs roster woes earlier on. I actually said Dirk is a very talented player, and I've seen him play in Top 10 form before. The question I posed is wether it had to do with the system, the coach, or was it his problem.
I also said I was anxious to see how it would turn out with a new coach and a full training camp under his direction.
What I will not take is somebody claiming he's playing at the same level he was playing 2 years ago. He's not playing at Top 10 level right now, IMO. I don't necessarily know if it's his fault or not. That's something I wanted to talk about, but the topic derailed into bitching about my list and personal attacks.



ElNono, nobody is saying Dirk is Bill Russell when it comes to defense, but the defensive scouting report on him needs to be updated: He's a decent help defender, he will give up his body to lay hard fouls, and he will give up his body to contest shots at the rim. Simply saying "he can't guard" anybody is not the complete story.

His man to man defense has needed work for years, but it never seems to improve. His post defense can be basically resumed in attempting to slap the ball. It's truly a mystery, since he has the size and length to be a defensive force, but for some reason he has not worked on it. At this point you would have to say he's not interested in that.



Saying he "can't post anybody up" misses the point. His back to the basket game is mediocre. His spin move is slow, he's too lanky and clumsy to outmanuever guys in the post. He has worked on a post game and it's never come close in efficiency and effectiveness of his perimeter game. He's a 2 in a 4's body and has a unique skillset. Tim Duncan has a decent jumper, but you don't want him shooting those all game long instead of banging in the post. In the case of Dirk, you don't want him trying to post up guys when he's at his deadliest getting the ball on the wing and being isolated one on one. He's been a top 5-7 player in the league without the post game of a Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard. And it's not like he hasn't tried to add that facet to his game, it's simply never going to be the weapon that his shooting and drive skills are.

I think they should play him at 2 then. And find an actual real 4 with a post game. I've mentioned it a long time ago, Elton Brand is available. Now, if you're going to play him at 4, then have the guy develop a semblance of a post up game. You mention Duncan, and yeah, he will favor his post up game, because that's his bread and butter. But he can shoot the jumper and make it too. It will be a lower percentage shot than a hook shoot, but he can still hit the jumper with a fairly good percentage. The thing with Dirk is that when the driving lanes are closed, it's his jumper or the highway. He just doesn't even have a semblance of a post up game to put any kind of pressure on the other team's defense.


You're either a troll or just incredibly bitter over 2006.

2006 is old story. We moved on. It would be good if some Mavs fan would also move on from 2006, and start asking themselves what has Dirk done more me lately...

[ElNono]

Tim McMahon isn't a homer. In fact, I know Tim and can say that with 100% certainty.

It's funny how you think you've earned the right to have me answer your stupid questions without you doing the same for mine. You actually think I respect your opinions enough to opine on your silliness?

Wether I think I earned your respect or not is irrelevant. I couldn't care less.
I took the time to respond to your questions, and if I missed any, please point me to them. It was my choice to respond, and I did.
Now you have a choice too. Again, are you going to respond to my questions or not?

[Shank]

What I will not take is somebody claiming he's playing at the same level he was playing 2 years ago. He's not playing at Top 10 level right now, IMO.

I think they should play him at 2 then.


Sorry, Findog, but I'm stepping in on this real quick.

First point - answer this: Was Dirk's play this past season better or worse than either 2006 or when he won his MVP? As someone that follows my favorite team, I can tell you that I haven't seen the guy play much better than he did this last season, especially after the Kidd trade. The numbers will obviously be less than what he accomplished in 06-07, but his play was much better.

Second point - please tell me you're not serious. In your magical world, do you often see 7' guys playing the 2?

[Shank]

Wether I think I earned your respect or not is irrelevant. I couldn't care less.
I took the time to respond to your questions, and if I missed any, please point me to them. It was my choice to respond, and I did.
Now you have a choice too. Again, are you going to respond to my questions or not?

Recap your bullshit list of questions (since they're scattered all over the fucking place) and I'll see if I have the lifeforce to answer them. I highly doubt, though, that you'd do the same in return.

[Shank]

Hey! It's almost noon! Time for a new "Top 10 players at noon on the first Wednesday of July" list!

[ElNono]

We can tell by the pickle wearing a top hat in your avatar that you don't care.

Personal attacks just further strengthen my points. When you attack me instead of my opinions, it just proves you have nothing to counter them.
So bring it on, I really don't care whatever you have to say about me.



But we can also tell by your idiotic 'Top 10 players at noon on Tuesdays in March while the moon is in the 3rd cycle and Saved by the Bell: The College Years is on TBS and I'm wearing a buttplug' list and the fact that you don't even watch enough basketball to know your claims about Dirk are asinine that you don't care, either.


Asinine is your presumption of knowing how much basketball I watch, or how I form my opinions.


If you really don't care, then we'll get mono to come in here and call you a few more names. That should do it.

Would that be the same mono that wrote this:


He had his golden opportunity to get that ring and make sure he never heard another critic again, and he choked and let it slip through his fingers. I love Dirk but he deserves the criticism heaped on him. Who knows if he'll ever get another shot at redemption, but if he does he'd better make sure not to screw it up again or he might get labeled the biggest choker in NBA history.

[monosylab1k]

Would that be the same mono that wrote this:

You son of a bitch

[monosylab1k]

Saying that Dirk is on the same level as Gasol and Odom is beyond stupid. He's well ahead of both of those guys. Gasol isn't even good enough to be a #2 on a championship team, and Odom chokes in a #3 role. Everyone in LA can't wait for Bynum to get back, pushing Gasol & Odom to 3rd and 4th best on the team. That way the team can still win in spite of the fact that they suck.

Make Dirk the 2nd or 3rd best player on a team and you've got a fucking dynasty.

But at the same time, questioning his ability to lead a team is entirely valid.

[ElNono]

First point - answer this: Was Dirk's play this past season better or worse than either 2006 or when he won his MVP? As someone that follows my favorite team, I can tell you that I haven't seen the guy play much better than he did this last season, especially after the Kidd trade. The numbers will obviously be less than what he accomplished in 06-07, but his play was much better.

Are you serious? The Mavs were doubtful to make the playoffs even BEFORE he got injured against us. I recall posting in this forum how pissed I was that he got injured since if they didn't make the playoffs they would blame it on the injury, when they were clearly sucking before then. And after he came back from the injury, your team went 6-4, including loses to Seattle and Portland.



Second point - please tell me you're not serious. In your magical world, do you often see 7' guys playing the 2?
Well, that is my point. If he's a 2 on a 4 body, then where do you play him at? He doesn't have the tools to play at 4. Now, defensively you couldn't play him at 2, but offensively you see big guys coming out and shooting from outside (Sheed and Bargnani come to mind, even more in international ball). I already said the solution is for him to learn a semblance of a post up game. But he doesn't seem interested.

[ElNono]

Saying that Dirk is on the same level as Gasol and Odom is beyond stupid. He's well ahead of both of those guys. Gasol isn't even good enough to be a #2 on a championship team, and Odom chokes in a #3 role. Everyone in LA can't wait for Bynum to get back, pushing Gasol & Odom to 3rd and 4th best on the team. That way the team can still win in spite of the fact that they suck.

Make Dirk the 2nd or 3rd best player on a team and you've got a fucking dynasty.

But at the same time, questioning his ability to lead a team is entirely valid.

I agree for the most part. I just think that Gasol provides something (a post presence) that Dirk couldn't provide. This is where Gasol is valuable for LA.

[stretch]

I agree for the most part. I just think that Gasol provides something (a post presence) that Dirk couldn't provide. This is where Gasol is valuable for LA.

hes a post presence until the playoffs. so his "presence" is completely useless.

[Shank]

Smiling pickle in a tophat.

Motherfucker still won't compile his bullshit list of questions. It's cute, though, that Elnono thinks he's taking the higher ground with the way he writes and assumes we're something less than he is.

[monosylab1k]

I agree for the most part. I just think that Gasol provides something (a post presence) that Dirk couldn't provide. This is where Gasol is valuable for LA.

What post presence are you talking about? He supposedly offers that but I saw nothing in the Finals. Boston's one strong post presence, Perkins, got hurt, they had to rely on 55 year old PJ Brown, and Gasol still couldn't take advantage of it. He got owned by a guy who will be buying discounted movie tickets in a few months.

[Shank]

But mono, you didn't answer his questions!

[ElNono]

Motherfucker still won't compile his bullshit list of questions.

Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...


It's cute, though, that Elnono thinks he's taking the higher ground with the way he writes and assumes we're something less than he is.

I don't assume anything, you do. You keep thinking you know me. You don't.

[mavs>spurs2]

Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...



I don't assume anything, you do. You keep thinking you know me. You don't.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[monosylab1k]

Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...



I don't assume anything, you do. You keep thinking you know me. You don't.

Hollinger is a numbers nerd, but I hold the majority of his opinions in pretty high regard. Here's his scouting report on Dirk -


Nonetheless, offense remains Nowitzki's calling card, and particularly shooting. Nowitzki is the best midrange shooter in basketball, hands down. Last year he was one of only seven players in the league to shoot over 50 percent on long 2-pointers. But it wasn't just quality, it was quantity -- Nowitzki had more than twice as many attempts from that distance as any of the other six on the list.

Nowitzki was above average for his position in every offensive element save one, and way above average in most. He created a ton of shots, ranking second at his position in usage rate, but the real secret to his success is that he creates those shots so efficiently. Despite being the Mavs' go-to guy, Dirk shot over 50 percent from the field. He had a high rate of free throws and shot a scorching 90.4 percent from the line, and while he doesn't take as many 3-pointers these days he knocked down a career-best 41.6 percent.

And he did it while taking care of the ball. Nowitzki had the fifth-best turnover ratio at his position, and still found teammates enough that he ranked 20th in assist ratio.

Which brings us to why Nowitzki's greatness is so underappreciated. His greatest strength is not his sweet shot, it's the absence of negative plays. Nowitzki is able to generate his points while hardly ever turning the ball over and misfiring less often than his peers; in other words, he's able to do it with a cost of relatively few empty trips. While that isn't always flashy -- several players averaged more than his 24.6 points per game -- it's an incredibly effective way to win basketball games.

That Nowitzki is among the best shooters to ever play the game is hardly news. He's a rare combination of size and skill -- a 7-footer who is comfortable playing the perimeter and has the dexterity to get his shot away against smaller defenders. The strategy against Nowitzki is to make him go right, because he's so deadly pulling up when going to his left, but this can be tough to do because the Mavs post him up right in the middle of the floor.

He's at his best when he takes a single quick dribble to his left and then rises up for a 15-footer. He's also added an unblockable fadeaway off one leg going the same direction. Going to his right he mostly tries to get all the way to the rim, though his finishing skills aren't up to the level of his perimeter game.

The overlooked aspect of Nowitzki's offensive arsenal is his ability to hit the brakes. Most big guys have a hard time slowing down once they get going, but Nowitzki can stop on a dime and pull up with perfect form on his jumper. Often you'll see the defender continuing by him as he pulls up to shoot.

The book on Nowitzki's defense is in serious need of a rewrite. While he's not a physical force, his dexterity and length have enabled him to become a quality player at that end, especially in zones. He's also added a strip move that's very effective against post players, and he's an underrated defensive rebounder who has comfortably beaten the league average for power forwards the past three seasons.

So Hollinger says he can play defense, post up, and has more going for him than just a jumper. And history says that Dirk led his team to a victory over the Spurs in the 2006 WCSF which is probably the source of your hostility towards him.

[Ghazi]

ElNono you make too much of "posting up". The idea of a postup player, in my estimation, is that it provides efficient scoring opportunities (Duncan, Shaq in their primes generally shot a % greater than 50), lots of trips to the FT line (and got to the line 8-9 times a game), and their presence causes a vacuuming of the defense creating kickout opportunities. Not to mention the defense and rebounding from that standpoint, Sheed's post game is totally worthless. He only shoots 43%, doesn't get to the line offense, doesn't force double teams, and shoots like 4-5 3's a game. Yet you would consider Sheed better than Dirk because he has a "post game"? No dude, no. Oh, and Sheed is a below average rebounder.

You could say how Sheed has a ring and Dirk doesn't, but Sheed was the #3 option on that Pistons team... if Dirk is ever the #3 option on a team they'd win 65+ games and a title.

[Shank]

Can you admit he can't guard anybody?
Can you admit he can't post up anybody?
Can you admit he can't lead anybody?
Can you admit that, outside his jumper, he got nothing special going for him?
If you can't, I'd like to hear why...

He can guard plenty of guys. Do you know of anyone that regularly goes off on Dirk because of his defense? He makes Gasol his bitch on both ends of the court as one example. He's great as a help defender, as well.
He can post up plenty of guys. But the same guys he posts up, can they defend him when he takes them out of the paint? Not a chance and that's what makes him unique.
He's a good leader. You're not in the lockeroom and you don't hear how he handles his fellow teammates.
I'll concede to Popovich, Pat Riley and others when it comes to preparing matchups for Dirk. They've admitted that he's tough to plan for.

Your bias and blind disdain for all things Nowitzki is disgusting. I guarantee that you'd be all on his balls if he played for your beloved Spurs. You need to learn to appreciate that there are other players out there that are among the best in the NBA. Dirk is one of them. As others have mentioned before, your ass is still sore from 2006 for some reason.

There needs to be no more time spent trying to convince your dumb ass that Dirk is a top 10 player in the league. There are guys that follow the NBA for a living that easily admit as much. I'd rather listen to their opinions than some dumbshit with a fucking pickle as his avatar.

:bking

[Ghazi]

I was reading some statistic a while ago, Nowitzki ranked 10th out of the 57 power forward's in the league as far as defense. So although he is not an elite defender, he is nowhere near a liability on the court. Keep in mind the Mavs have had a good (although not great) defense for the past 4 years.

[Findog]

Dirk is light years ahead of guys like Amare when it comes to defense. He's always lumped in with Amare and others in this regard, and it's not accurate. Not saying Dirk is a white Bill Russell, but he's doesn't give up on defense what he gets you on offense...not all of it, anyways.

[ElNono]

Hollinger is a numbers nerd, but I hold the majority of his opinions in pretty high regard. Here's his scouting report on Dirk

...

So Hollinger says he can play defense, post up, and has more going for him than just a jumper. And history says that Dirk led his team to a victory over the Spurs in the 2006 WCSF which is probably the source of your hostility towards him.

That was written in '07, after the Mavs got kicked out by the Warriors.
Here's the introduction to that scouting report:

"Let's not let a bad playoff series start any revisionist history about the other 82 games. Nowitzki's regular season was wonderful and he deserved the MVP, flat out. Not only did he rank second in the league in PER and lead the Mavs to a 67-win season -- thanks in part to several clutch buckets of his own making -- but Nowitzki's defense, long a sore point, improved to the point that he was actually pretty good."

It would be interesting to see what he thinks now, after two consecutive disappointing post seasons.
I will also argue that there's no such thing as posting a player in the middle of the floor. If he means that he gets the ball at the top of the key, sure. But that's not posting up. When was the last time you saw Dirk backing up anybody in the post, and NOT finishing with a turnaround jumper? Never.
Also, when he describes his best plays, they're all basically jumpers. Except when he drives, where Hollinger correctly assesses he's not that great of a finisher.
And defensively, he's specially good defending the zone? I mean, the opposite of man to man, which is what teams use 90% of the time? He's got a 'strip move'? That's not defense.
I will give you he's a good rebounder, although somewhat expected for a guy 7ft tall.

And I don't have hostility towards him. At least I don't think I do. I think he's a very talented player, that's just not playing that well right now. I think too much is expected from a guy that can't deliver some of those things. Like leadership. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't see why some of the Mavs fans get so uptight about that.

[stretch]

I think he's a very talented player

according to you, he can shoot, and do nothing more. well so can jason kapono. are you going to call him a "very talented player"?

please just shut the fuck up already

[ElNono]

ElNono you make too much of "posting up". The idea of a postup player, in my estimation, is that it provides efficient scoring opportunities (Duncan, Shaq in their primes generally shot a % greater than 50), lots of trips to the FT line (and got to the line 8-9 times a game), and their presence causes a vacuuming of the defense creating kickout opportunities. Not to mention the defense and rebounding from that standpoint, Sheed's post game is totally worthless. He only shoots 43%, doesn't get to the line offense, doesn't force double teams, and shoots like 4-5 3's a game. Yet you would consider Sheed better than Dirk because he has a "post game"? No dude, no. Oh, and Sheed is a below average rebounder.

You could say how Sheed has a ring and Dirk doesn't, but Sheed was the #3 option on that Pistons team... if Dirk is ever the #3 option on a team they'd win 65+ games and a title.

Sheed's as a focal point of the Pistons offense changed when Larry Brown left. When flippity came around, he changed the entire offense around. If Sheed were to attempt a 3 pointer with LB as the coach, he'll be riding the bench for the rest of the season. Then again, Flip Saunders came and left the Pistons ringless, with a team that made the NBA Finals twice with LB as the coach. Ask any Pistons fans here, we have plenty of them.
And I consider Sheed better than Dirk not just because of him having a post game, but also because he's 20x the better defender. IE: Sheed will guard Duncan one on one, where Dirk will simply not guard Duncan at all unless there's no other option.

[ElNono]

according to you, he can shoot, and do nothing more. well so can jason kapono. are you going to call him a "very talented player"?
Kapono is indeed very talented, and has one more championship ring than Dirk.


please just shut the fuck up already
I wont. Feel free to put me in ignore if you want.

[Shank]

please just shut the fuck up already

[Shank]

Kapono is indeed very talented, and has one more championship ring than Dirk.

Is Kapono better than Dirk?

[ElNono]

Dirk is light years ahead of guys like Amare when it comes to defense. He's always lumped in with Amare and others in this regard, and it's not accurate. Not saying Dirk is a white Bill Russell, but he's doesn't give up on defense what he gets you on offense...not all of it, anyways.

True. Although, to Amare's credit, he has improved a lot on his shot blocking in the last season.

[ElNono]

Is Kapono better than Dirk?

No

[Findog]

Is Kapono better than Dirk?

You goddamned well know it, considering he never got off the bench for Miami in that series.

[Shank]

Is Tracy McGrady better than Dirk?

[Findog]

True. Although, to Amare's credit, he has improved a lot on his shot blocking in the last season.

Amare's always been a decent shotblocker, he didn't add that to his game last year. He always goes for the block/home run so he can get on Sportscenter, rather than honing his technique and playing good solid defense.

[stretch]

Kapono is indeed very talented, and has one more championship ring than Dirk.

you have eternally failed

[ElNono]

What post presence are you talking about? He supposedly offers that but I saw nothing in the Finals. Boston's one strong post presence, Perkins, got hurt, they had to rely on 55 year old PJ Brown, and Gasol still couldn't take advantage of it. He got owned by a guy who will be buying discounted movie tickets in a few months.

Gasol gave LA 16/9 for the playoffs, from the post, which is exactly what LA needed from a #2 option. He's the sole reason a guy like Sasha looked like a stud out there draining 3 pointers.

[ElNono]

Amare's always been a decent shotblocker, he didn't add that to his game last year. He always goes for the block/home run so he can get on Sportscenter, rather than honing his technique and playing good solid defense.

IMO, he improved. He used to foul a lot more trying to get the block in earlier seasons. I guess his timing probably got better. Other than that, yeah, he's a pretty horrible man to man defender, and completely nonexistent as a help defender.

[ElNono]

He can guard plenty of guys. Do you know of anyone that regularly goes off on Dirk because of his defense? He makes Gasol his bitch on both ends of the court as one example. He's great as a help defender, as well.

He just doesn't defend the best big on the other team. You never wonder why?



He can post up plenty of guys. But the same guys he posts up, can they defend him when he takes them out of the paint? Not a chance and that's what makes him unique.

He can't post anybody because he has no post game. Period. Even if he could back somebody up all the way to the rim, he has no hook shot, no floater, nothing. He can only turn around an shoot a fade away.
And Stephen Jackson would love to talk to you about making Dirk struggle.



He's a good leader. You're not in the lockeroom and you don't hear how he handles his fellow teammates.

I don't have to be in a locker room to know that Jordan was a leader. That Kobe is a leader. That Duncan is a leader. But if I need to be on the locker room to know Dirk is a leader, then we have a problem.



I'll concede to Popovich, Pat Riley and others when it comes to preparing matchups for Dirk. They've admitted that he's tough to plan for.


Yet, they have, for the most part, been entirely successful against him. Especially Pop.



Your bias and blind disdain for all things Nowitzki is disgusting. I guarantee that you'd be all on his balls if he played for your beloved Spurs. You need to learn to appreciate that there are other players out there that are among the best in the NBA. Dirk is one of them. As others have mentioned before, your ass is still sore from 2006 for some reason.


I disagree. That I basically don't drink your Dirk kool-aid doesn't mean I don't appreciate other players on the league. Actually, my Top 10 list included just a single Spur.



There needs to be no more time spent trying to convince your dumb ass that Dirk is a top 10 player in the league. There are guys that follow the NBA for a living that easily admit as much. I'd rather listen to their opinions than some dumbshit with a fucking pickle as his avatar.


You do what you want. Nobody forced you to write this or engage in this conversation.

[Shank]

I love how you write in definitives. As though everything you state is 100% true.

Do this - you've obviously lost this argument and have been dogpiled from all angles. Bend over, go fuck yourself and stop posting in this thread.

We win.

[ElNono]

I love how you write in definitives. As though everything you state is 100% true.

I never claimed that. Believe what you want.



Do this - you've obviously lost this argument and have been dogpiled from all angles. Bend over, go fuck yourself and stop posting in this thread.

We win.


I won't do that. I'll be here to discuss when you have something relevant to say.

[Shank]

I never claimed that. Believe what you want.

"He can't post anybody because he has no post game. Period. Even if he could back somebody up all the way to the rim, he has no hook shot, no floater, nothing. He can only turn around an shoot a fade away."

Sound pretty fucking definitive to me. "Can't" and "Can" are certainties in your little mind.

[stretch]

I won't do that. I'll be here to discuss when you have something relevant to say.

:jack

[ElNono]

"He can't post anybody because he has no post game. Period. Even if he could back somebody up all the way to the rim, he has no hook shot, no floater, nothing. He can only turn around an shoot a fade away."

Sound pretty fucking definitive to me. "Can't" and "Can" are certainties in your little mind.

If you think I'm wrong in that opinion, prove otherwise... but you can't. Instead you rather argue how I talk in 'definitives'. Well, it damn right will be a definitive if you can't argue against it.

[Shank]

You said he "can ONLY turn around and shoot a fadeaway". He can ONLY do that. Only.

You're not winning this, I hope you know. We're all laughing at you - your Spurs sheep included.

[Ghazi]

Sheed's as a focal point of the Pistons offense changed when Larry Brown left. When flippity came around, he changed the entire offense around. If Sheed were to attempt a 3 pointer with LB as the coach, he'll be riding the bench for the rest of the season. Then again, Flip Saunders came and left the Pistons ringless, with a team that made the NBA Finals twice with LB as the coach. Ask any Pistons fans here, we have plenty of them.
And I consider Sheed better than Dirk not just because of him having a post game, but also because he's 20x the better defender. IE: Sheed will guard Duncan one on one, where Dirk will simply not guard Duncan at all unless there's no other option.

And yet he only shoots 43%. Don't you get it, the idea of a post player is scoring efficiency, which is why when you look at the top efficiency leaders of all time, most of them are centers and power forward. Sheed is not a very efficient player. and really? 20 times the defender? can you mathematically prove that Sheed is TWENTY times the defender Dirk is? If Sheed allows 10 points per game, does that mean Dirk allows 200? That doesn't even make sense. As I said, Dirk was statistically a top 10 defender at the PF position, and the PER of opposing PF's this year was #2 behind Boston (Garnett).

[Shank]

Ghazi, we're talking to a brick wall.

[stretch]

Ghazi, we're talking to a brick wall.

yea logic makes to much sense to him. he and tom cruise must be fuck buddies.

[ElNono]

You said he "can ONLY turn around and shoot a fadeaway". He can ONLY do that. Only.

You're not winning this, I hope you know. We're all laughing at you - your Spurs sheep included.

When he's posting up a player, yes, that's all he can do. That's my opinion. Feel free to quote me on it.
You don't think so? I'm all ears...

And I'm not here to 'Win' anything. I'm here to talk, like I'm doing with pretty much anybody not named 'Shank' or 'stretch'.

[ElNono]

And yet he only shoots 43%. Don't you get it, the idea of a post player is scoring efficiency, which is why when you look at the top efficiency leaders of all time, most of them are centers and power forward. Sheed is not a very efficient player. and really? 20 times the defender? can you mathematically prove that Sheed is TWENTY times the defender Dirk is? If Sheed allows 10 points per game, does that mean Dirk allows 200? That doesn't even make sense. As I said, Dirk was statistically a top 10 defender at the PF position, and the PER of opposing PF's this year was #2 behind Boston (Garnett).

Sheed defends the opposing's team best big. Dirk does not.
Sheed defends Duncan, Howard, KG, Shaq, etc. Dirk does not defend any of those guys. That's why numbers won't give you the story. Plus what do you mean he only shoots 43%???? Duncan averaged 44% shooting these playoffs.
And the PER numbers are bullshit. KG better than Dirk and Duncan? I mean, I don't blame it on you because you didn't write them, but please.

Now let me tell you, I appreciate you taking the time to talk about this. So many trolls that prefer to attack me instead of coming with takes like you do.

[z0sa]

Yes to both. Did you just start watching basketball this year? Well I'll inform you that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, a year ago, and for years before that, Kevin Garnett played in the Western Conference. Shocker, I know.

As I believed, you go straight to belittling. KG and Tim had a sort of rivalry going on, so no one here in SA ever forgot about him.


And Dirk regularly kicked KG's ass up and down the court when they were both in the WC. In fact, if you do a little research you'll see that they even met up in the playoffs. Guess which team swept the other one? Guess who played better between KG and Dirk? It wasn't even close. Dirk DOMINATED Garnett.

Foolish, foolish. Do you watch your own team's games? It was most definitely a three-pronged attack of Nash, Finley, AND Dirk. This "wiping the floor" stuff with KG is stupid.

KG's best teammate was a confused, nomadic Chauncey Billups. What an epic fail of an argument.

BTW, just in case you just started watching basketball last year yourself, Dirk in the Laker's middle wouldn't be any better than Pau. They needed someone MUCH better than Pau.

[endrity]

Foolish, foolish. Do you watch your own team's games? It was most definitely a three-pronged attack of Nash, Finley, AND Dirk. This "wiping the floor" stuff with KG is stupid.

KG's best teammate was a confused, nomadic Chauncey Billups. What an epic fail of an argument.

BTW, just in case you just started watching basketball last year yourself, Dirk in the Laker's middle wouldn't be any better than Pau. They needed someone MUCH better than Pau.

It wasn't a confused Billups. It was a Billups fully blossoming as a player, one that would go to Detroit the next season after what he showed during those playoffs. He was the Wolves best player. They also had a guy, Wally World, who you might forget now, but actually was an All Star that year, and playing at the top of his abilities.

Dirk and KG went one on one most of the series, and Dirk handled him quite easily. And this was 23 year old Dirk vs. a 26-27 year old KG.

You are the one forgetting the facts here.

[z0sa]

It wasn't a confused Billups. It was a Billups fully blossoming as a player, one that would go to Detroit the next season after what he showed during those playoffs. He was the Wolves best player. They also had a guy, Wally World, who you might forget now, but actually was an All Star that year, and playing at the top of his abilities.

Billups had no idea where he'd be dropping in next - he was finally finding his place in the NBA as a shoot first PG, but it made his overall psyche confused and nomadic. I mean, its just human nature, not rocket science. When he got to Detroit, it was clear that he finally found a fit. That fit was not in Minny.

and Wally? Please. The guy was a stiff from day one, his offense is like a Peja's, only with a shitter stroke and slightly more ball handling, while his defense ...

Now, lets look at Dirk's next two best players: Steve Nash in his prime, Mike Finley in his prime. Finley even had 28 and 30 in two of the three games.


Dirk and KG went one on one most of the series, and Dirk handled him quite easily. And this was 23 year old Dirk vs. a 26-27 year old KG.

You are the one forgetting the facts here.

KG attempted 17 free throws in Game 2, and averaged 24.0ppg for the series. Sure doesn't seem like Dirk "handled him quite easily" to me. Then again, I don't have the homer shades on.

[stretch]

Sheed defends the opposing's team best big. Dirk does not.
Sheed defends Duncan, Howard, KG, Shaq, etc. Dirk does not defend any of those guys. That's why numbers won't give you the story. Plus what do you mean he only shoots 43%???? Duncan averaged 44% shooting these playoffs.
And the PER numbers are bullshit. KG better than Dirk and Duncan? I mean, I don't blame it on you because you didn't write them, but please.

Now let me tell you, I appreciate you taking the time to talk about this. So many trolls that prefer to attack me instead of coming with takes like you do.

fact is, those guys you mentioned can all somewhat guard each other and find ways to give each other some fits. but NONE of them... NOT A SINGLE ONE can guard Dirk on their own. the ONLY way that teams have successful guarded Dirk was in the past with pesky guys like Bowen, but after he figured that out, the only way was to throw double and triple teams at him. there is not a single player in the NBA that can guard Dirk Nowitzki one-on-one successfully. IMO its easier to stop a guy like Tim Duncan one-on-one than it is to stop Dirk Nowitzki. and even Dirk/Duncan going at it one-on-one, Dirk wins that battle every time. Dirk is a very special player, and much better than you give him credit for.

[stretch]

Billups had no idea where he'd be dropping in next - he was finally finding his place in the NBA as a shoot first PG, but it made his overall psyche confused and nomadic. I mean, its just human nature, not rocket science. When he got to Detroit, it was clear that he finally found a fit. That fit was not in Minny.

and Wally? Please. The guy was a stiff from day one, his offense is like a Peja's, only with a shitter stroke and slightly more ball handling, while his defense ...

Now, lets look at Dirk's next two best players: Steve Nash in his prime, Mike Finley in his prime. Finley even had 28 and 30 in two of the three games.



KG attempted 17 free throws in Game 2, and averaged 24.0ppg for the series. Sure doesn't seem like Dirk "handled him quite easily" to me. Then again, I don't have the homer shades on.

3-0

that is "handling" in the most important way possible

shut the fuck up

[monosylab1k]

Foolish, foolish. Do you watch your own team's games? It was most definitely a three-pronged attack of Nash, Finley, AND Dirk. This "wiping the floor" stuff with KG is stupid.

Fuck you're dumb. You must not have watched that series at all. Dirk scored 30+ on KG in all 3 games of that series. He held Garnett to under 43% shooting for the series. He also forced Garnett into 4 turnovers per game, up from his sub-3 average for the season. The Mavs were the better team anyways, but anybody who actually watched that series saw Dirk make KG his bitch.

[ElNono]

fact is, those guys you mentioned can all somewhat guard each other and find ways to give each other some fits. but NONE of them... NOT A SINGLE ONE can guard Dirk on their own. the ONLY way that teams have successful guarded Dirk was in the past with pesky guys like Bowen, but after he figured that out, the only way was to throw double and triple teams at him. there is not a single player in the NBA that can guard Dirk Nowitzki one-on-one successfully. IMO its easier to stop a guy like Tim Duncan one-on-one than it is to stop Dirk Nowitzki. and even Dirk/Duncan going at it one-on-one, Dirk wins that battle every time. Dirk is a very special player, and much better than you give him credit for.

All those guys command a double team. The difference is that all those guys are also defensive anchors (perhaps with the exception of Howard, who is just getting started), something Dirk is nowhere near. There's a reason Cubes just paid the full MLE for Diop. Neither Dirk or Dampier can handle the plethora of bigs in the west right now. Case in point is the NO series, where West pretty much matched Dirk in production. Chandler had a feast of alley-oops in your paint. So Dirk is not going to turn into a defensive anchor overnight. But Dirk's advantage only works if the other team can't score on the other end. He can't stop them, so we'll see if Diop can (to be honest with you, Diop is probably the player with the most horrible offense in the league, but he's long and athletic enough to give a bunch of bigs trouble)

To draw a parallel, Allen Iversion is very hard, almost impossible to stop. But he never plays defense. His team rarely does. That's why he got as far as Dirk. One NBA Finals appearance, and that's it.

[stretch]

All those guys command a double team. The difference is that all those guys are also defensive anchors (perhaps with the exception of Howard, who is just getting started), something Dirk is nowhere near. There's a reason Cubes just paid the full MLE for Diop. Neither Dirk or Dampier can handle the plethora of bigs in the west right now. Case in point is the NO series, where West pretty much matched Dirk in production. Chandler had a feast of alley-oops in your paint. So Dirk is not going to turn into a defensive anchor overnight. But Dirk's advantage only works if the other team can't score on the other end. He can't stop them, so we'll see if Diop can (to be honest with you, Diop is probably the player with the most horrible offense in the league, but he's long and athletic enough to give a bunch of bigs trouble)

To draw a parallel, Allen Iversion is very hard, almost impossible to stop. But he never plays defense. His team rarely does. That's why he got as far as Dirk. One NBA Finals appearance, and that's it.

you clearly have some of the worst arguments ive ever seen. common sense literally flees from your pathetic excuse for a brain. your ignorance is absolutely unbelievable. i did not know it was humanly possible for a person to be insistent at debating something they know nothing about but acting as if they know what the hell they are talking about, as you have done here. i literally do not have the energy to even begin debating you and your god-awful logic any further.