Texas Castle Doctrine Case

[nomanches]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620d2YzRLPE

Joe Horn, a man from Texas, shot and killed 2 burglars who were robbing a neighbors house and just a few days ago was cleared of all charges. I know I'd be glad to have him as a neighbor.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5864151.html

[T Park]

God Bless Texas :smokin

if this was california arnold would be holding a candle light walk for the "misunderstood" burglars..

[Kermit]

Shooting people in the back is heroic.

[fatsack]

Shooting people in the back is heroic.

about as heroic as coming in to a country illegally and then deciding to break into someone's house and steal their belongings.

[fatsack]

<delete>

[T Park]

Shooting people in the back is heroic.


If they are burglars sure it is.

I hate a fucking thief, and if he threatens me or my family, fuck him hes getting lead.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Shooting people in the back is heroic.

Plus it's fun. Don't forget that.

[T Park]

Especially the dumbasses that buy those orange target shirts at walmart.

[Kermit]

If they are burglars sure it is.

I hate a fucking thief, and if he threatens me or my family, fuck him hes getting lead.

Define threatening. Does it include running away from the person with the gun?

[Kermit]

Especially the dumbasses that buy those orange target shirts at walmart.

Your hatred of those shirts must stem from the time you wore one and a helicopter landed on you.

[Brutalis]

Don't be a fucking pussy. At least shoot em in the face to get a reaction first. Got damn.

[Clandestino]

yeah, it is safer to let them walk away and come back another day to rob the rest of his neighbors.

[0201rinckwater]

As someone who has been robbed :tu to old guy

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Are you fucking kidding me? He shot two people who weren't even robbing HIS house?? in the back?? and he claims that he feared for his life???

Why does it not surprise me that there are idiots in here that think this is acceptable! Unbelievable!

don't get me wrong, I detest burglars as much as anyone, but I have more respect for the sanctity of life!! You don't fucking kill someone for robbing a fucking house, unless its your house and you fear for your life! This old fucker was certainly not fearing for his! He even quoted the law in his 911 fucking call!


In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

Yeah... it was self defense alright... pfff!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

well

don't rob peoples homes and you wont get shot



You don't even realize how fucked up that line of thinking is, don't you? Vigilante justice has been romanticized to a point that people don't understand what it means anymore. The dude killed two people because they robbed a house! Forget the "was in fear for his life" bullshit, which was clearly not the case here, what court in the US would condemn someone to death for stealing?? none! Guess what, there's a reason for that!


the interesting test case will be when someone shoots their own neighbor after they lose their key and are climbing into the window of their own house

absolutely imminent

[0201rinckwater]

Are you fucking kidding me? He shot two people who weren't even robbing HIS house?? in the back?? and he claims that he feared for his life???

Why does it not surprise me that there are idiots in here that think this is acceptable! Unbelievable!

don't get me wrong, I detest burglars as much as anyone, but I have more respect for the sanctity of life!! You don't fucking kill someone for robbing a fucking house, unless its your house and you fear for your life! This old fucker was certainly not fearing for his! He even quoted the law in his 911 fucking call!



Yeah... it was self defense alright... pfff!

Self defense wasn't the law that the defense used.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

the interesting test case will be when someone shoots their own neighbor after they lose their key and are climbing into the window of their own house

That's already happened (but before the new law) when some college kid (pretty sure it was locally) was drunk and went into a neighbor's home and was shot and killed.

[T Park]

Are you fucking kidding me? He shot two people who weren't even robbing HIS house?? in the back?? and he claims that he feared for his life???

Why does it not surprise me that there are idiots in here that think this is acceptable! Unbelievable!

don't get me wrong, I detest burglars as much as anyone, but I have more respect for the sanctity of life!! You don't fucking kill someone for robbing a fucking house, unless its your house and you fear for your life! This old fucker was certainly not fearing for his! He even quoted the law in his 911 fucking call!



Yeah... it was self defense alright... pfff!


So its ok to rob houses?

Great rationalizing.

[T Park]

You don't even realize how fucked up that line of thinking is, don't you? Vigilante justice has been romanticized to a point that people don't understand what it means anymore. The dude killed two people because they robbed a house! Forget the "was in fear for his life" bullshit, which was clearly not the case here, what court in the US would condemn someone to death for stealing?? none! Guess what, there's a reason for that!



Makes criminals think twice in texas.

We won't kiss their ass like you guys would wherever you live.

[T Park]

Define threatening. Does it include running away from the person with the gun?

Someone climbing into a house that shouldn't be seems pretty threatening to me.

But you go ahead and open the front door for em next time.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Self defense wasn't the law that the defense used.


Horn's defense hinged on his assertion that he fired out of fear for his life, making the shooting justifiable under Texas law.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

So its ok to rob houses?

Great rationalizing.

yeah, that's what I'm saying T Park... that its alright to rob houses. :rolleyes

Not big on logical conclusions are you?

[T Park]

yeah, that's what I'm saying T Park... that its alright to rob houses. :rolleyes

Not big on logical conclusions are you?

Im not big on people breaking into things that aren't theres.

Don't want to get shot? Don't rob a house.


Seems pretty fucking logical to me.

[Clandestino]

well, if they weren't in the country illegally there would have never been a crime committed and they would have never been shot. anything after them into the country illegally is moot.

my dad was pulled over with an open beer can a few years ago. the reason he was stopped was because the cop said he couldn't see his license plate. it was a new car, so it didn't have a license plate, therefore he should've never been stopped in the first place. case dismissed.

[MannyIsGod]

Don't break into people's houses and then I might feel sorry for you if you get shot.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Makes criminals think twice in texas.

We won't kiss their ass like you guys would wherever you live.

No, that's right, you'll shoot their heads off for stealing a loaf of bread. Ever heard of appropriate punishment? jackass

Why don't you start chopping off the hands of thieves? that'll show them...

[exstatic]

well

don't rob peoples homes and you wont get shot


the interesting test case will be when someone shoots their own neighbor after they lose their key and are climbing into the window of their own house

That'll be TPark.

[0201rinckwater]

the interesting test case will be when someone shoots their own neighbor after they lose their key and are climbing into the window of their own house

That's not a test case that's manslauter, i remember a few years back some guy shot a guy he thought was robbing him. Turns out it was a friend he shot, and he went to jail for it cause he gave him a key

[0201rinckwater]

No, that's right, you'll shoot their heads off for stealing a loaf of bread. Ever heard of appropriate punishment? jackass

Why don't you start chopping off the hands of thieves? that'll show them...

Except they weren't stealing a loaf of bread. you break into somebody's house here you can get shot, it's a risk you take when breaking into houses.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Say a 16 year old kid breaks into a backyard to look for an errant baseball he lost. Now, you've got this trigger happy old fart seating in the house next door. For all the old man knows this person is robbing his neighbors house. Would you consider it an honest mistake if he killed the kid?

since we're going by your "well, don't break in to people's houses and you won't get shot" principle...

Am I the only one that sees the inherent danger in allowing ordinary people to decide for themselves whether a person deserves to die or not?? You're talking the law out of the hands of the justice system and putting it on the hands of people like this guy, who misconstrues the law.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Except they weren't stealing a loaf of bread. you break into somebody's house here you can get shot, it's a risk you take when breaking into houses.

Which isn't really the point is it. The old fuck didn't know what the fuck they were stealing, and they were not threatening his life. His duty was not to SHOOT them, it was to call the police and let them handle it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

well, if they weren't in the country illegally there would have never been a crime committed and they would have never been shot. anything after them into the country illegally is moot.



WTF? you do realize illegal immigrants are still people right?

[0201rinckwater]

Say a 16 year old kid breaks into a backyard to look for an errant baseball he lost. Now, you've got this trigger happy old fart seating in the house next door. For all the old man knows this person is robbing his neighbors house. Would you consider it an honest mistake if he killed the kid?

since we're going by your "well, don't break in to people's houses and you won't get shot" principle...

Am I the only one that sees the inherent danger in allowing ordinary people to decide for themselves whether a person deserves to die or not?? You're talking the law out of the hands of the justice system and putting it on the hands of people like this guy, who misconstrues the law.

who plays baseball at midnight?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

who plays baseball at midnight?

You're kidding, right?

Forget the baseball. You seriously don't get what I'm trying to say?

[0201rinckwater]

You're kidding, right?

Forget the baseball. You seriously don't get what I'm trying to say?

If you are going to use a metaphor use an effective one. One of the reasons i don't wonder around places that aren't mine is because i know the law and i don't want to get shot

[Clandestino]

Say a 16 year old kid breaks into a backyard to look for an errant baseball he lost. Now, you've got this trigger happy old fart seating in the house next door. For all the old man knows this person is robbing his neighbors house. Would you consider it an honest mistake if he killed the kid?

since we're going by your "well, don't break in to people's houses and you won't get shot" principle...

Am I the only one that sees the inherent danger in allowing ordinary people to decide for themselves whether a person deserves to die or not?? You're talking the law out of the hands of the justice system and putting it on the hands of people like this guy, who misconstrues the law.

knock on the neighbors door and ask if he can go back there.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Nevermind!

I just realized I'm trying to argue against the merits of vigilante justice in a forum mainly populated by Texans. We'll probably never see eye to eye on this issue.

P.S. and this coming from a guy that actually lives in a place with zero fucking justice. Vigilantism must be seen as murder, for societies sake.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ comparing this to a kid getting shot trying to get his ball back.

just :lol

Once I shot my neighbor when he was just outside in his kiddie pool. Thats how we roll in Texas!

WTF?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:lol @ comparing this to a kid getting shot trying to get his ball back.

just :lol

Once I shot my neighbor when he was just outside in his kiddie pool. Thats how we roll in Texas!

WTF?

What the fuck does it matter? a kid, an illegal alien, a thief... we're talking about how the old man perceives it. You mean to tell me, it would not be possible to make that mistake.

and you might not shoot your neighbor in his kiddie pool, but you might just end up shooting him while he's climbing in through his window because he missplaced his key (like 4cc said)

all I know is texans better turn on the fucking light to go to the bathroom, otherwise your vigilant old fart of a neighbor might just mistake you for an intruder and shoot your lights out while quoting the "castle doctrine" law into his phone.

[T Park]

That'll be TPark.


Never lose my keys.

So no, nice try though.

[T Park]

What the fuck does it matter? a kid, an illegal alien, a thief... we're talking about how the old man perceives it. You mean to tell me, it would not be possible to make that mistake.

and you might not shoot your neighbor in his kiddie pool, but you might just end up shooting him while he's climbing in through his window because he missplaced his key (like 4cc said)

all I know is texans better turn on the fucking light to go to the bathroom, otherwise your vigilant old fart of a neighbor might just mistake you for an intruder and shoot your lights out while quoting the "castle doctrine" law into his phone.


Fail.

Stop digging your damn hole.

[T Park]

If you are going to use a metaphor use an effective one. One of the reasons i don't wonder around places that aren't mine is because i know the law and i don't want to get shot


Thats wayyyyy too much common sense.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Fail.

Stop digging your damn hole.

Not all of us subscribe to the "shoot first, ask questions later" school of thinking, you moron

that's alright T Park, I've long given up on you having anything intelligent to say. The "Fail" bullshit just serves to emphasize your lack of originality.

I find it specially interesting how your nuts shrivel up and disappear when you find yourself alone in your opinion but you're all of a sudden emboldened when you find likeness of mind. Go ahead and dig your hole sometime jackass, you might find, that maybe, just maybe you're digging in the right place. 'course, you're going to need nuts for that.

Either way, if "Fail" is all you've got to say, please STFU and let someone who is willing to put some thought into his response contribute. Is that too much to ask?

[T Park]

Not all of us subscribe to the "shoot first, ask questions later" school of thinking, you moron

that's alright T Park, I've long given up on you having anything intelligent to say. The "Fail" bullshit just serves to emphasize your lack of originality.

I find it specially interesting how your nuts shrivel up and disappear when you find yourself alone in your opinion but you're all of a sudden emboldened when you find likeness of mind. Go ahead and dig your hole sometime jackass, you might find, that maybe, just maybe you're digging in the right place. 'course, you're going to need nuts for that.

Either way, if "Fail" is all you've got to say, please STFU and let someone who is willing to put some thought into his response contribute. Is that too much to ask?


Seeing as I was one of the first to comment, I would say that that assessment, like everything else you've pontificated out of your ass about this, is wrong.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Seeing as I was one of the first to comment, I would say that that assessment, like everything else you've pontificated out of your ass about this, is wrong.

nah see, that's what you do. You wade the waters in search for approval. Then one of three scenarios happen. One, you find it, and become a dick; two, you don't find it, in which case you become an even bigger dick; or three, someone like Kori, timvp or anyone else around here that has proven they know their shit, comes in and disagrees with you, in which case you turn on "kiss ass" mode.

Its alright, everyone's unique in their own way

[1369]

Guess Manu missed the whole "dude with threatening with a crowbar" and "cop who witnessed it and said the shooting was justified" part of this particular case.

Oh yea, and the whole part where a jury of his peers "no billed" the case as well based on the evidence.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Are you fucking kidding me? He shot two people who weren't even robbing HIS house?? in the back?? and he claims that he feared for his life???

Why does it not surprise me that there are idiots in here that think this is acceptable! Unbelievable!

don't get me wrong, I detest burglars as much as anyone, but I have more respect for the sanctity of life!! You don't fucking kill someone for robbing a fucking house, unless its your house and you fear for your life! This old fucker was certainly not fearing for his! He even quoted the law in his 911 fucking call!



Yeah... it was self defense alright... pfff!

Well if you had read the article instead of jumping off the freakin' ledge, you would know that the guy told the two burglars to freeze, and one of them started running in his direction.

When someone has a gun pointed at you (a 12 gauge no less) and tells you to stand still, the smart thing to do would be to stand still.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Not all of us subscribe to the "shoot first, ask questions later" school of thinking, you moron

that's alright T Park, I've long given up on you having anything intelligent to say. The "Fail" bullshit just serves to emphasize your lack of originality.

I find it specially interesting how your nuts shrivel up and disappear when you find yourself alone in your opinion but you're all of a sudden emboldened when you find likeness of mind. Go ahead and dig your hole sometime jackass, you might find, that maybe, just maybe you're digging in the right place. 'course, you're going to need nuts for that.

Either way, if "Fail" is all you've got to say, please STFU and let someone who is willing to put some thought into his response contribute. Is that too much to ask?

You're an idiot. He told them to stop where they are. They tried to run, and one ran in his direction. Don't run in the direction of someone holding a gun telling you to freeze, and you won't get shot.



What the fuck does it matter? a kid, an illegal alien, a thief... we're talking about how the old man perceives it. You mean to tell me, it would not be possible to make that mistake.

and you might not shoot your neighbor in his kiddie pool, but you might just end up shooting him while he's climbing in through his window because he missplaced his key (like 4cc said)

all I know is texans better turn on the fucking light to go to the bathroom, otherwise your vigilant old fart of a neighbor might just mistake you for an intruder and shoot your lights out while quoting the "castle doctrine" law into his phone.

You're really being an idiot about this one. The old man probably wouldn't shoot a kid grabbing his baseball from his yard, of course the kid wouldn't have just kicked down the neighbor's front door, either.

And I'd bet the kid would probably stop when the old man told him to.

You are just getting your ass handed to you in this one, just shut up and move on.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

that you resent getting shot at when you break into people's homes?

:lmao FTW!

[MannyIsGod]

Manu - how many of your scenarios have happend recently in Texas? How many kids getting their balls have been shot? How many neighbors have been shot after forgetting their keys?

Please, stop pulling things out of your reactionate ass.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Manu forgot to mention that the kid would go get his baseball with a crobar in hand, because that's how kids playing baseball at midnight roll.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I read the whole article

How about the part where it says this


The operator repeatedly urged him to stay in his house, but Horn said he did not believe it would be right to let the burglars get away

or the part where they mention they were shot in the back? or how about the part where the Senator who wrote the law acknowledges the fact that this situation does not apply?

[MannyIsGod]

I shot my neighbors kid today cause he was trying to get his ball out of my yard. My neighbor and I had a good laugh about it and said "We live in Texas! Thats how we roll!" then went back on our daily business. Thats life in the wild west.

[MannyIsGod]

Its so fucking stupid to use a case where some fucking thieves get shot - in front of a cop no less - to try to make a case on gun control. Pooooooooooooooooooooooooor fucking thieves. They could have been little leaguers.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You're an idiot. He told them to stop where they are. They tried to run, and one ran in his direction. Don't run in the direction of someone holding a gun telling you to freeze, and you won't get shot.

You don't get shot in the back running in the direction of someone with a gun, Einstein.


You're really being an idiot about this one. The old man probably wouldn't shoot a kid grabbing his baseball from his yard, of course the kid wouldn't have just kicked down the neighbor's front door, either.

And I'd bet the kid would probably stop when the old man told him to.

Shit, it doesn't have to be a kid, it could be a fucking adult. Its not the fucking point. The fact that its not YOUR house being broken into, and not YOUR life being threatened makes all the difference in the world. You give people that kind of leeway in judgment in situations like this and tragedies happen. Although the fact that you think these two men dying was nothing to fret about tells me perhaps you're not too concerned about it.


You are just getting your ass handed to you in this one, just shut up and move on.

Again with the "stop digging your hole" bullshit. Just present your arguments and STFU

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Its so fucking stupid to use a case where some fucking thieves get shot - in front of a cop no less - to try to make a case on gun control. Pooooooooooooooooooooooooor fucking thieves. They could have been little leaguers.

In other words, fuck the thieves, they deserved to die. Am I in the ballpark? (pun intended)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I read the whole article

How about the part where it says this


The operator repeatedly urged him to stay in his house, but Horn said he did not believe it would be right to let the burglars get away

or the part where they mention they were shot in the back? or how about the part where the Senator who wrote the law acknowledges the fact that this situation does not apply?

Yeah, let's see, they had had repeated breakins in the neighborhood. It was a fair assumption that it was probably the same jackasses as before.

All he told the operator was he did not believe it would be right to let them get away. He tried to get them to stop, he told them to freeze. He didn't kick out his front door with the 12 gauge blazing.

Damn.

I don't really give a shit what a senator said, they're all idiots and particularly the ones in Texas don't want to say anything to endanger the hispanic vote for themselves so it's not a surprise to see them riding the fence on this one.

Yes, I saw they were shot in the side/back. He doesn't know that the guy wasn't running to a car to get a gun or anything. All he knows is that he told them to freeze and one of them just ran in his direction.

There was an eyewitness to the crime that backed the guy up and said it was justifiable, but clearly your gun hating ass sitting a couple thousand miles away knows better. Stupid us.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Its so fucking stupid to use a case where some fucking thieves get shot - in front of a cop no less - to try to make a case on gun control. Pooooooooooooooooooooooooor fucking thieves. They could have been little leaguers.

by the way, I'm not making a case for gun control. I am for it, but I don't believe it needs to be brought into this situation. I believe that the old man went overboard and committed murder just as I believe that the two stupid fucks that he killed were criminals that deserved to go to jail. Had Horn stayed inside like the 911 operator said, then perhaps that's where they would be now.

[Clandestino]

by the way, I'm not making a case for gun control. I am for it, but I don't believe it needs to be brought into this situation. I believe that the old man went overboard and committed murder just as I believe that the two stupid fucks that he killed were criminals that deserved to go to jail. Had Horn stayed inside like the 911 operator said, then perhaps that's where they would be now.


or perhaps they wouldve robbed and killed another neighbor next week

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yeah, let's see, they had had repeated breakins in the neighborhood. It was a fair assumption that it was probably the same jackasses as before.

Which STILL does not excuse killing them if not in self defense, so don't bring that shit as if it does.


All he told the operator was he did not believe it would be right to let them get away. He tried to get them to stop, he told them to freeze. He didn't kick out his front door with the 12 gauge blazing.

In other words he took justice into his hands... I missed the part where this fucker is an officer of the law.


I don't really give a shit what a senator said, they're all idiots and particularly the ones in Texas don't want to say anything to endanger the hispanic vote for themselves so it's not a surprise to see them riding the fence on this one.

Well seeing as though that senator, whose opinion you don't give a shit about, wrote the fucking law that Horns defense used to get him off. I'd say his 2 cents about what the law was intended for have a little more weight than your "I just don't give a fuck"


Yes, I saw they were shot in the side/back. He doesn't know that the guy wasn't running to a car to get a gun or anything. All he knows is that he told them to freeze and one of them just ran in his direction.

Asuming you could say he made a mistake with the dude that approached him and turned away. What about the other fucker? The cop in plain clothes said only one approached him with a crowbar. Guess shooting the other just made sense huh?


There was an eyewitness to the crime that backed the guy up and said it was justifiable,

I might be missing it, but where in that article does it say the eye witness thought the shooting was justified?


but clearly your gun hating ass sitting a couple thousand miles away knows better. Stupid us.

Save it! You weren't there either, and because you weren't there, you're working with the same information I am. It makes no fucking difference whether I'm 1000 miles away and you're 10.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

or perhaps they wouldve robbed and killed another neighbor next week

oh then, by all means, shoot them...

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

What If Manu is shooting around in his garage, shots like he did in the Lakers series and the ball ends in the neighbour's backyard? Manu goes looking for it and the neighbour shoots him.

The Argentinian doctors would say that he is ok to play in the Olympics, since as we all know, doctors who live south of the Rio Grande are actually veterinarians.

The Spurs management would drive to the morgue and say to his corpse "see, we told you. You shouldn't play basketball when it isn't Spurs-related. Now, do you accept this new contract? It has a pay-cut, since we expect your role to be reduced next year, with you being dead and all. C'mon, this isn't the first time we do this kind of deal, just look at Finley and Horry".

The Lakers fans would call bullshit on the "bullet excuses", and talk about "how great was Sasha covering that coffin".

The Suns fans will post in every basketball internet forum about how "there's no bullet, clearly. That footage of his head exploding into millions of pieces is fake."

The police will be looking for the suspect. Rumours indicate he is 6'2'', shaven head and speaks English with an European accent...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

What If Manu is shooting around in his garage, shots like he did in the Lakers series and the ball ends in the neighbour's backyard? Manu goes looking for it and the neighbour shoots him.

The Argentinian doctors would say that he is ok to play in the Olympics, since as we all know, doctors who live south of the Rio Grande are actually veterinarians.

The Spurs management would drive to the morgue and say to his corpse "see, we told you. You shouldn't play basketball when it isn't Spurs-related. Now, do you accept this new contract? It has a pay-cut, since we expect your role to be reduced next year, with you being dead and all. C'mon, this isn't the first time we do this kind of deal, just look at Finley and Horry".

The Lakers fans would call bullshit on the "bullet excuses", and talk about "how great was Sasha covering that coffin".

The Suns fans will post in every basketball internet forum about how "there's no bullet, clearly. That footage of his head exploding into millions of pieces is fake."

The police will be looking for the suspect. Rumours indicate he is 6'2'', shaven head and speaks English with an European accent...

:lol

[Clandestino]

too fucking funny

[MaNuMaNiAc]

too fucking funny

Agreed. Sig worthy even, if it wasn't as long :lol

Damn it! MMLH!

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

He feared for his life, eh? Is that why he went outside with a shotgun?

That analogy posted earlier is off base.

If your neighbor is getting his ass kicked (A & B) in his yard, then is it ok to shoot the dude who did it after it's over and he walks across your yard?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Asuming you could say he made a mistake with the dude that approached him and turned away. What about the other fucker? The cop in plain clothes said only one approached him with a crowbar. Guess shooting the other just made sense huh?

I'm just curious, have you ever been in a situation like that? Let's see, you've got two guys breaking and entering in the middle of the night (we're not talking high noon here), one brandishes a crobar and runs in your direction. You pull the trigger.

There's another guy with him. If his buddy had a crobar, it's logical he's got at least a crobar, possibly even a knife or a gun. Oh wait, I know, he should have stood around and waited to see if the other guy shot him with a gun before doing anything about the other guy, right? Makes perfect sense.

And if you read the guy's comments, he said he was scared for his life. Bottom line, when you're in what you perceive to be a life threatening situation, you do what you can to eliminate that threat. He was in between two burglars, one of whom had a weapon. He acted to eliminate the perceived threat to his life.

Ah, who the hell am I kidding? You think he's a cold blooded murderer regardless. Fuck it, I'm done with this thread. I will say I'd love to have this guy as a neighbor.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I'm just curious, have you ever been in a situation like that? Let's see, you've got two guys breaking and entering in the middle of the night (we're not talking high noon here), one brandishes a crobar and runs in your direction. You pull the trigger.

There's another guy with him. If his buddy had a crobar, it's logical he's got at least a crobar, possibly even a knife or a gun. Oh wait, I know, he should have stood around and waited to see if the other guy shot him with a gun before doing anything about the other guy, right? Makes perfect sense.

And if you read the guy's comments, he said he was scared for his life. Bottom line, when you're in what you perceive to be a life threatening situation, you do what you can to eliminate that threat. He was in between two burglars, one of whom had a weapon. He acted to eliminate the perceived threat to his life.

Ah, who the hell am I kidding? You think he's a cold blooded murderer regardless. Fuck it, I'm done with this thread. I will say I'd love to have this guy as a neighbor.



He went out of his way to put himself in that situation. He just couldn't let them get away, no?

Dude knew what he was doing and that fear defense is weak.

What does reciting the law to the 911 operator tell you? It's ok if I shoot these guys, right?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'm just curious, have you ever been in a situation like that? Let's see, you've got two guys breaking and entering in the middle of the night (we're not talking high noon here), one brandishes a crobar and runs in your direction. You pull the trigger.

There's another guy with him. If his buddy had a crobar, it's logical he's got at least a crobar, possibly even a knife or a gun. Oh wait, I know, he should have stood around and waited to see if the other guy shot him with a gun before doing anything about the other guy, right? Makes perfect sense.

And if you read the guy's comments, he said he was scared for his life. Bottom line, when you're in what you perceive to be a life threatening situation, you do what you can to eliminate that threat. He was in between two burglars, one of whom had a weapon. He acted to eliminate the perceived threat to his life.

Ah, who the hell am I kidding? You think he's a cold blooded murderer regardless. Fuck it, I'm done with this thread. I will say I'd love to have this guy as a neighbor.

Well seeing as though he put himself into that situation against the advice of the 911 operator, he couldn't have been that scared. You don't go, confront a guy who is robbing house, and then claim you HAD to kill him 'cause you were scared he was going to kill you. WTF?

and why would you quote a law like "castle doctrine" before going out with a shotgun?

Seriously, all I'm hearing from you equates to "Who gives a fuck! they were criminals!" which completely misses the whole point. It doesn't matter what the fuck they were, or whether or not they had done it before. They deserve to go to jail. You shooting them in the back is not a fucking legal option. Well, at least it shouldn't be IMO. In this case, it appears to have worked.

[T Park]

You shooting them in the back is not a fucking legal option. Well, at least it shouldn't be IMO. In this case, it appears to have worked.


Don't come to texas thief.

[CuckingFunt]

I will say I'd love to have this guy as a neighbor.

Really? I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a neighbor who called 911 and gave the police as much information as he could so that they could better do their jobs and get the people who burglarized my house.

He went out there to play hero without knowing whether or not he was creating/contributing to a situation that could have ended in the injury or death of others in the neighborhood. Sorry, but there's nothing noble about being an impulsive jackass with a shotgun.

[T Park]

Really? I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a neighbor who called 911 and gave the police as much information as he could so that they could better do their jobs and get the people who burglarized my house.

He went out there to play hero without knowing whether or not he was creating/contributing to a situation that could have ended in the injury or death of others in the neighborhood. Sorry, but there's nothing noble about being an impulsive jackass with a shotgun.


I doubt ud say that with the burglars returned and had you at knife point saying

"Im glad my neighbor didn't help me and was a good citizen in giving the info to the cops, who really don't give a shit"

[KEDA]

Not all of us subscribe to the "shoot first, ask questions later" school of thinking


If you are a good marksman, there wont be any questions to ask.


I feel that Mr. Horn was 100% justified in his actions.

If someone is breaking into my neighbors house and then when I tell them to stop, and one, or both come after me, you bet your sweet ass Im going to shoot. And I dont care if its in his back or his front. Im shooting!

[CuckingFunt]

I doubt ud say that with the burglars returned and had you at knife point saying

"Im glad my neighbor didn't help me and was a good citizen in giving the info to the cops, who really don't give a shit"

Burglars with knifes are pretty much the last people I want made panicky.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I doubt ud say that with the burglars returned and had you at knife point saying

"Im glad my neighbor didn't help me and was a good citizen in giving the info to the cops, who really don't give a shit"

I doubt you'd say that if the perps returned and had a bake sale.

Conjecture is fun.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Really? I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a neighbor who called 911 and gave the police as much information as he could so that they could better do their jobs and get the people who burglarized my house.

He went out there to play hero without knowing whether or not he was creating/contributing to a situation that could have ended in the injury or death of others in the neighborhood. Sorry, but there's nothing noble about being an impulsive jackass with a shotgun.

They'd already had robberies in the neighborhood, a lot of good calling the cops had done before.

You also have to put yourself in his situation. After Katrina the amount of violent crime skyrocketed in and around Houston with all the refugees there. But yeah, the guy was dumb, he should have waited for them to come back and rob or kill someone else, or stood around on his lawn waving a baking roller in the air telling them to stop it or else while crossing his fingers hoping not to get shot.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I doubt ud say that with the burglars returned and had you at knife point saying

"Im glad my neighbor didn't help me and was a good citizen in giving the info to the cops, who really don't give a shit"

How about you wait 'till they come back with that knife, and THEN shoot them. Only then will it be self defense and justified. Get it?

[T Park]

Burglars with knifes are pretty much the last people I want made panicky.

Have a gun on hand and you can turn them from panicky to running away scared.

[T Park]

How about you wait 'till they come back with that knife, and THEN shoot them. Only then will it be self defense and justified. Get it?


No thanks.

I'd appreciate someone shooting the person the first time they got aggressive and came at someone with a weapon.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Have a gun on hand and you can turn them from panicky to running away scared.

Right, just don't fucking shoot them while they're running away!

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

They'd already had robberies in the neighborhood, a lot of good calling the cops had done before.



Wasn't there a plain clothes detective right across the street?

[CuckingFunt]

They'd already had robberies in the neighborhood, a lot of good calling the cops had done before.

You also have to put yourself in his situation. After Katrina the amount of violent crime skyrocketed in and around Houston with all the refugees there. But yeah, the guy was dumb, he should have waited for them to come back and rob or kill someone else, or stood around on his lawn waving a baking roller in the air telling them to stop it or else while crossing his fingers hoping not to get shot.

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.

[CuckingFunt]

I'd appreciate someone shooting the person the first time they got aggressive and came at someone with a weapon.

Like Horn did?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.

Bin-fucking-go!

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Haven't read to see if this was posted, but we had a local similar event last night.

http://www.ksat.com/news/16756701/detail.html

==========

SAN ANTONIO -- A 30-year-old homeowner shot an intruder Monday night while his pregnant wife and their 2-year-old baby were in the home, police said.

Stephen Garcia, 21, broke into the home at around 9:30 p.m. in the 6500 block of Arris Pass on the city's northwest side, police said.

Brian Stevens' wife was alone at the time with her baby when she realized someone was trying to break into their home, police said.

She immediately called her husband, who rushed home to find a bicycle in the front of the house and noises coming from the back.

Stevens ran inside to get his gun and located the intruder in the kitchen. Stevens then pointed the gun at the intruder, police said.

"I had my gun and I was pointing it at him," Stevens said. "And I was telling him, 'Get out of my house a bunch of times.'"

Stevens said that Garcia has his chance to leave, but the intruder didn't back down -- even after Stevens pulled the trigger the first time and the gun didn't go off.

Stevens said that he was so nervous that when he had tried to pull the trigger, the safety was still on, and all he could think about was his family hidden upstairs.

"Since the stairs were there ... my wife and baby were up there, and he could of ran upstairs," said Stevens.

Stevens lowered his hands and fired one round that hit Garcia and went through a wall.

"He just dropped, and I told him, 'Stay calm,'" Stevens said. "The ambulance and police (are) on their way."

Garcia was shot in the stomach and taken to a hospital where he remains in critical condition.

Although Garcia scared the family, Stevens still hopes he recovers.

"I just pray he gets better," Stevens said. "I heard he might be paralyzed and I hope that's not the case."

Stevens said that he believes that everybody has the right to protect their home and family and hopes to one day become a police officer.

None of the family members were injured.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Haven't read to see if this was posted, but we had a local similar event last night.

http://www.ksat.com/news/16756701/detail.html



Not really that similar though. At least the guy's motivation is completely different. He didn't chase the man outside and shoot him in the back, and this was his home, with his wife and child at stake. I'd say this is a legitimate case of self defense.

Interesting to see the guy is rational about the whole thing even after going through something like that. Most people wouldn't give a damn about the robber. Level headed dude, I'd say.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Not really that similar though. At least the guy's motivation is completely different. He didn't chase the man outside and shoot him in the back, and this was his home, with his wife and child at stake. I'd say this is a legitimate case of self defense.

Interesting to see the guy is rational about the whole thing even after going through something like that. Most people wouldn't give a damn about the robber. Level headed dude, I'd say.

Similar as in a castle defense doctrine... we've had a few in SA over the past month or so.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Similar as in a castle defense doctrine... we've had a few in SA over the past month or so.

I see. I agree then.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

We don't need no stinkin' doctrines in Detroit.

We just kill people for the fun of it.

[nomanches]

It is unfortunate that this situation happened ,but I think Horn was justified. According to the article


Authorities have said one man ran toward Horn but had angled away toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

One of the burglars ran to him and Horn felt threatened. Can't fault the guy for feeling threatened.

[CuckingFunt]

One of the burglars ran to him and Horn felt threatened. Can't fault the guy for feeling threatened.

As has already been pointed out, the guy ran at Horn because he walked outside with a shotgun. Whether or not it developed to a situation in which he felt a genuine threat, he already knew what he was going to do when he walked outside.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

We don't need no stinkin' doctrines in Detroit.

We just kill people for the fun of it.

You should come to Argentina. Here if you're a minor you practically have carte blanche to kill whoever the fuck you want :depressed. Our justice system is truly pathetic, in the sense that it has all the appearance of legitimacy, but none of the desired results. The laws are there, just no one willing to truly enforce them.

It also doesn't help that we have a corrupt government from the president down. Corruption in Argentina is not just a crime, but the norm. Its ironic really. Apparently, the way of thinking is this country is so infested with corruption, you can't get anything done without it; and at the same time, nothing ever gets done because of it. Fuck doing something about it. SO... fuck it. Comedy, I tell you.

[nomanches]

As has already been pointed out, the guy ran at Horn because he walked outside with a shotgun. Whether or not it developed to a situation in which he felt a genuine threat, he already knew what he was going to do when he walked outside.

He goes outside, tells them "Move and you're dead!". One of them ignores that command and rushes after Horn. At that point, if somebody has the balls to confront a burglar with a shotgun, it is up to the burglar to realize that the person wielding the weapon isn't playing around.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

He goes outside, tells them "Move or I'll shoot!". One of them ignores that command and rushes after Horn. At that point, if somebody has the balls to confront a burglar with a shotgun, it is up to the burglar to realize that the person wielding the weapon isn't playing around.

this would be accurate if the man had some jurisdiction outside, say a law enforcement officer. Not a civilian. You don't walk outside with a gun and play cops and robbers, shoot someone and then claim it was on self defense when you initiated the whole thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

[CuckingFunt]

He goes outside, tells them "Move or I'll shoot!". One of them ignores that command and rushes after Horn. At that point, if somebody has the balls to confront a burglar with a shotgun, it is up to the burglar to realize that the person wielding the weapon isn't playing around.

Granted.

But the point I'm making is that when you're the aggressor, when you're the one holding a shotgun and saying "move or I'll shoot," the definition of threat gets a bit fuzzy.

[nomanches]

Granted.

But the point I'm making is that when you're the aggressor, when you're the one holding a shotgun and saying "move or I'll shoot," the definition of threat gets a bit fuzzy.

True,I understand what you're saying. I've never been in a situation like this where I was holding a gun to someone and I don't know if you have or not, but I am inclined to believe Horn felt threatened even while holding the weapon. In other words, we just don't know how we would react to such a tension filled/nervous situation like this until we have gone through something similar and if he says that he felt threatened then I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

[Spurminator]

Ideally you shoot them in the knees and the cops haul them away.

I don't buy all of the hypotheticals about accidentally shooting your neighbor for whatever reason because if that was really a significant danger we'd be hearing about it more and stuff like this wouldn't really be news.

No the burglars didn't deserve to die but they put themselves in that position.

[nomanches]

this would be accurate if the man had some jurisdiction outside, say a law enforcement officer. Not a civilian. You don't walk outside with a gun and play cops and robbers, shoot someone and then claim it was on self defense when you initiated the whole thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Well wouldn't he have jurisdiction to do so since the burglars threatened him on his property?

[T Park]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.

Wow so now your advocating the ignoring of a burglary?


There was nothing racist about his posts, but as always, stretching.

[CuckingFunt]

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.


Wow so now your advocating the ignoring of a burglary?

No. Just the opposite, actually.

Is it that you don't fully read my posts, or that you just don't understand them?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.

Racist? Houston's violent crime rate went up over 500% in the year after Katrina. That's a fact. And the majority of those committing said crimes were from Louisiana. That's also a fact (pretty easy as most still had their La. driver's licenses on them).

Nothing racist there, and not everyone from La. who moved to Houston was a minority.

So piss off with the racist shit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

this would be accurate if the man had some jurisdiction outside, say a law enforcement officer. Not a civilian. You don't walk outside with a gun and play cops and robbers, shoot someone and then claim it was on self defense when you initiated the whole thing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Texas state law says you can defend property with the use of deadly force, even outdoors. So, you're wrong.

[T Park]

God bless Texas :smokin

[Anti.Hero]

Good guy Free. Bad guys dead.

Me Happy.

[Anti.Hero]

Define threatening. Does it include running away from the person with the gun?

Too bad they didn't speak anglish. "Quick, look up the meaning of FREEZE!!111"

:toast

[Anti.Hero]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.



Racism?

Try realism.

The truth hurts. Not as much as a shotgun to the back though :bking

[Anti.Hero]

Also, I don't know about everywhere else...but in Texas neighbors look out for their neighbors. That's how it has always been for me growing up. We watch after each others houses when one leaves for vacation or when one is at work and the other is home. Not because the neighborhood is dangerous, but because an attack on your neighbor's house is a threat to YOU also.

The guy was old. Old school Texans don't take shit. I can admit that it doesn't really hold up to what the castle doctrine intended for, that is obvious. But the good guy won and the scum piece of shit thieves died. That is justice imfo. Just wait until you get home one day and all of your shit is missing and your house is trashed. They got what they deserved.

[peewee's lovechild]

Nevermind!

I just realized I'm trying to argue against the merits of vigilante justice in a forum mainly populated by Texans. We'll probably never see eye to eye on this issue.

P.S. and this coming from a guy that actually lives in a place with zero fucking justice. Vigilantism must be seen as murder, for societies sake.

Vigilantism?

[peewee's lovechild]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.

"Turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing"???

Come on, Funt, you're to smart to make this statement.

If it's okay to "turn a blind eye" to this crime, then it's okay for every other crime . . . such as rape, or sexual abuse.

[peewee's lovechild]

Racist? Houston's violent crime rate went up over 500% in the year after Katrina. That's a fact. And the majority of those committing said crimes were from Louisiana. That's also a fact (pretty easy as most still had their La. driver's licenses on them).

Nothing racist there, and not everyone from La. who moved to Houston was a minority.

So piss off with the racist shit.

It happened here in San Antonio as well.

Not to the degree that it happened in Houston, but it happened nonetheless.

[CuckingFunt]

I left my English-to-Racist dictionary in my car, but I bet I know what that part means.

Also, I'm curious when it was decided that the only two options are apathy or a shotgun? I've yet to see a single post advocating that Horn turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing.


"Turn a blind eye to the crime he was witnessing"???

Come on, Funt, you're to smart to make this statement.

If it's okay to "turn a blind eye" to this crime, then it's okay for every other crime . . . such as rape, or sexual abuse.

You've made the same comprehension error as T Park.

"I've yet to see a single post advocating..." does not equal "I am advocating..."

[peewee's lovechild]

I hardly ever agree with TPark, but I'm with him on this one.

For anyone of you to side with the burglars is just pure stupidity. If those two dumbasses would've stayed at home, they wouldn't be dead right now.

I'm very pro gun control, but I'm also for protecting yourself and your property if you feel threatned. It doesn't matter that they were robbing Horn's neighbor. Who is to say that they weren't going to move on to Horn's house after they swept through his neighbor's house. None of you can make an assured statment that they wouldn't have gone into Horn's house after they finished with his neighbor's house.

It's extremely plausible that Horn felt threatned. And, I believe that he did the right thing. It's not his fault that those two guys decided to committ a crime.

[peewee's lovechild]

You've made the same comprehension error as T Park.

"I've yet to see a single post advocating..." does not equal "I am advocating..."

Then, what is your point exactly?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

all you people that don't live in texas just need to get over it and continue to live in the world that you create. life isn't always peachy, there is no santa clause and the easter bunny died along time ago, and for pete's sakes, funt, put away your damn slide rule. you're sounding like a female chumpdumper.

[peewee's lovechild]

Another thing that pissed me the fuck off was watching a crowd of black folk protesting in front of Horn's house.

They were raising their fists up in the air like they were fighting for their civil liberties. What the fuck was all that about?? Two black dudes, who were illegal immigrants anyway, were shot for ROBBING A HOUSE!!! How is this somehow a civil rights issue??

Do they know how stupid this looks??

I'm pretty sure Dr. King and Malcolm X would have bee proud of all this.

[desflood]

Who is to say that they weren't going to move on to Horn's house after they swept through his neighbor's house. None of you can make an assured statment that they wouldn't have gone into Horn's house after they finished with his neighbor's house.
That happened in a nearby neighborhood two nights ago. Somebody tried to break into an elderly couple's home, had trouble getting in and moved on to the next house - where the homeowner had heard him and was waiting with a gun. The would-be robber is now in the hospital in cirtical condition :D

[CuckingFunt]

Then, what is your point exactly?

The point of the post that you quoted was that there were ways Horn could have attempted to intervene in the situation that didn't involve grabbing his shotgun.

The assumption of the posts preceding mine was that the only two options in this situation were shooting the burglars, or giving them detailed schematics of every house on the block and baking them a cake to welcome them to the neighborhood.

[peewee's lovechild]

That happened in a nearby neighborhood two nights ago. Somebody tried to break into an elderly couple's home, had trouble getting in and moved on to the next house - where the homeowner had heard him and was waiting with a gun. The would-be robber is now in the hospital in cirtical condition :D

According to some people posting here, that owner should have called the cops (and wait half an hour for them to get there), cowered into a closet, or turned a blind eye.

However, I think he made the right decision.

[peewee's lovechild]

The point of the post that you quoted was that there were ways Horn could have attempted to intervene in the situation that didn't involve grabbing his shotgun.

The assumption of the posts preceding mine was that the only two options in this situation were shooting the burglars, or giving them detailed schematics of every house on the block and baking them a cake to welcome them to the neighborhood.

And, my point was that "turning a blind eye to the crime" was a very stupid suggestion. I hope that you were being sarcastic because I know that you are too smart to make a statement like that.

Because, like I stated previously, if it's okay to turn a blind eye to this crime, then it's okay to turn a blind eye to other crimes.

[desflood]

According to some people posting here, that owner should have called the cops (and wait half an hour for them to get there), cowered into a closet, or turned a blind eye.

However, I think he made the right decision.
The guy actually did call the cops first - but if he'd waited for them to get there, he would've been cleaned out.

[peewee's lovechild]

The guy actually did call the cops first - but if he'd waited for them to get there, he would've been cleaned out.

Aint that the truth.

[CuckingFunt]

According to some people posting here, that owner should have called the cops (and wait half an hour for them to get there), cowered into a closet, or turned a blind eye.

No, that's according to your twisting of the words of some of the posters here.

Waiting in your own house with a gun and wounding the person as they're actively breaking in is not the same thing as running outside with a shotgun and engaging with people breaking into a neighbor's house. Having a gun in the home is not something that I, personally, advocate (or would ever practice), but I still recognize that if you've got one and someone else is actively burglarizing your home, you're justified in using it. Running out with a shotgun to initiate contact with people burglarizing a neighbor's home, however, is not only an unnecessary extreme, but could have been creating a situation that is more dangerous -- there's no way Horn could have known for sure how these two would react to an old man with a shotgun.

[CuckingFunt]

And, my point was that "turning a blind eye to the crime" was a very stupid suggestion. I hope that you were being sarcastic because I know that you are too smart to make a statement like that.

Because, like I stated previously, if it's okay to turn a blind eye to this crime, then it's okay to turn a blind eye to other crimes.

Again, that's not the suggestion I made.

At all.

Ever.

My post was stating, specifically, that I had not seen anyone here make that suggestion. My post was stating, specifically, that "turning a blind eye" was NOT the only other option in this case.

[desflood]

Okay, here's the official story (not the one I heard from my neighbor last night):

Web Posted: 07/01/2008 10:42 PM CDT

By Robert Crowe
Express-News

Just hours before a San Antonio homeowner shot and critically wounded a 21-year-old man who police said walked into his home, a Harris County grand jury cleared a Pasadena grandfather in the shooting deaths of two men suspected in a burglary of his neighbor's house last fall.

San Antonio police said Stevens likely would not be charged in the 9:30 p.m. shooting of Stephen C. Garcia Jr. at Stevens' home in the 6500 block of Arrid Pass. Garcia survived a gunshot wound to his abdomen and was charged with burglary of a habitation. He was taken to University Hospital, where he remained in critical condition Tuesday. His bail was set at $75,000.

“It appears it was in self-defense, and that the homeowner protected his family,” said San Antonio Police Department spokesman Joe Rios.

He said Monday's incident in San Antonio appears to be a textbook example of how residents are protected under Texas law.

According to a police report, the intruder smelled of intoxicants when police tried to question him after the shooting. Stevens told police he was away from home when his wife called to say a man was attempting to enter his home shortly before 9:20 p.m.

The wife said the man had repeatedly knocked on their door, but she told him to leave. She then heard noises at her garage door.

Stevens rushed home and retrieved a gun. He called police to report the incident. While waiting for them, he heard a loud noise. Shortly afterward, the man walked into his home. When Stevens told him to get out, the intruder said nothing but continued walking forward before Stevens shot him.

“He did what he had to do, I guess,” said George Carter, Stevens' neighbor, who told police he also heard a loud noise outside his home before noticing that a portion of his fence had been knocked down. “He was protecting his wife and their 18-month-old.”

[Viva Las Espuelas]

pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go into a store. pete comes out. who's left?

[peewee's lovechild]

there's no way Horn could have known for sure how these two would react to an old man with a shotgun.

There's no way he could have been sure that his house wasn't next and that they didn't have weapons of their own.

I don't own any weapons, and I'm all for gun control. But, even I can see that he didn't do anything wrong. Was he being preemptive? Maybe. But, I would rather be preemptive than to be a victim. There's no way in hell that I'm just going to sit back and become a potential victim.

Isn't that how France got invaded by the Nazis in WWII? Let's ignore this Adolf Hitler guy invading Austria, Hungary, and Poland. If we just keep quiet and ignore this Hitler fellow he'll just leave us be . . . . ohhh, looks like that was a bad idea. We'll just wait for the Americans to bail us out.

[Kermit]

Isn't that how France got invaded by the Nazis in WWII? Let's ignore this Adolf Hitler guy invading Austria, Hungary, and Poland. If we just keep quiet and ignore this Hitler fellow he'll just leave us be . . . . ohhh, looks like that was a bad idea. We'll just wait for the Americans to bail us out.

:rollin

Just when this couldn't get any more inane, someone brings out the Hitler invading France argument. God damn, people. I know everyone has their own beliefs, but let us not venture into Retardville, pop. 1.

Here's Ol' Horn's reaction to the shooting, just in case anyone cares.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5866865.html

By RUTH RENDON
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle


WHAT HORN SAID

On the 12-gauge shotgun Horn retrieved from his car: "The gun saved my life. It took two lives but it saved mine. How do you evaluate that? Yes, it's awful but it saved my life"

Contrary to what can be heard on the 911 tape, Horn insists his plan was to go outside to see if he could get a better description to give police: "My plan was very simple. Nothing was going to get me out that door without a plan. As far as shooting a shotgun goes, I knew I wasn't going to shoot anybody. There was no danger to any of the bad guys or police officers"

His attorney and friend, Tom Lambright , was the first to tell him he had been cleared: "It felt like a huge weight had just been removed from me. I immediately called my daughter at work. She squealed. She was just ecstatic. There was a lot of emotion. It was a huge relief"

For seven months, Horn thought he would be indicted largely on account of the 911 conversation: "How was I ever going to try to explain that? The manner in which I talked was just not me"

Horn became even more frightened when he lost sight of the alleged burglars: "It was bad enough when I was upstairs and looking at them. But I could see them. When they disappeared and I went downstairs, the fear was magnified tenfold because now I can't see them and they could come into my house. There is the unknown that was terrifying. I thought it was bad but it got worse"

On looking back at the life he had before the shootings: "I want it back so bad. I'm scared I won't get it back. I hope this is the beginning of better times for me"
The voice of Joe Horn on the infamous 911 tape, the one telling police he wasn't going to let the men burglarizing his neighbors' house get away, that he was "gonna shoot" them, is not the voice of the real Joe Horn, he told the Houston Chronicle on Tuesday.

Nor is the man who grabbed his shotgun, left his house against a 911 operator's orders, pumped a shell into the chamber and shot the men down after shouting "move, you're dead," the real Joe Horn.

The real Joe Horn, he insisted in an exclusive interview the day after he was cleared by a Harris County grand jury in the deaths of Diego Ortiz and Hernando Riascos Torres, is just a boring retired engineer.

And a 61-year-old Pasadena grandfather who, energized by fear that afternoon last Nov. 14, made a decision that has haunted him since, a decision he would take back if he could.

"I would never advocate anyone doing what I did," Horn said from his attorney's west Houston home. "We are not geared for that."

Gunning down the two unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia rocketed Horn from his suburban obscurity into a deeply divided vortex of public scrutiny. He has been hailed on the one side as a hero, as a neighbor anyone would want; and on the other as nothing more than a vigilante taking the law into his own hands.

In a calm, soft voice, Horn said Tuesday he was neither — not a man worthy of praise, nor one who merits scorn.

"I know what a hero is, and that's not me," he said. "I'm a human being that was in a situation that I'd never been in before, and I didn't want to die."


'You lose track of time'
Horn's account of the events leading up to the shootings differs sharply in parts with what can be heard on the tape of the call he made to 911 shortly after seeing the men allegedly breaking into his neighbors' house.

He said he was upstairs in his gameroom, tinkering with a computer, when the quiet of the Village Grove East subdivision was shattered by the sound of breaking glass. He instinctively blamed the family cat, Horn said, before realizing that the noise had come from outside.

He looked out the window and saw two men, both dressed in dark green T-shirts, blue jeans and tennis shoes, breaking into his neighbors' home through a block glass window.

He called 911 on his cell phone.

He said he began to feel scared. He didn't know who the men were, nor if his neighbors were home and were in danger. Was his home the next target?

He went to his car to get a 12-gauge shotgun he kept in a leather case on the floorboard.

"All I was thinking was, 'Oh my God,' " he said. "You lose track of time. You don't ever think about that. You start thinking about all kinds of things. ... I was feeling helpless."

From his upstairs window, Horn said he saw the men leave his neighbors' home and walk around the back of the house where he couldn't see them.

While still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, he said he went downstairs with the goal of getting a description of the men to give police.

But, according to the transcript, he provided the dispatcher a far different motive:

Operator: Mr. Horn, do not go out the house.

Horn: I'm sorry. This ain't right, buddy.

Operator: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with that gun. I don't care what you think. Stay in the house.

Horn: You wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em.

As he was going downstairs, Horn said the fear and adrenaline rush was intense.

"I'm thinking if they go out the front door, I can't see them at all," he said. His plan was to look out the front door window to get a better view of his neighbor's house. Seeing nothing, he ventured outside.

He said he took one step off his front porch and saw nothing. "I felt great. I was so relieved that I didn't see anything. I thought, 'It's over with.' "

Then he saw the men come around the corner and head into his front yard. Horn had his cell phone in his front shirt pocket while he handled the shotgun.


'No fear in their eyes'

"It went from 'I'm glad it's all over' to instant fear," he said.

He shouted the words he now regrets: "Move, you're dead." The men — about 10 feet and 13 feet from him — stopped immediately. They looked at one another and said nothing.

"There was no fear in their eyes," Horn said.

One of the men, believed to be Torres, started to charge him, Horn said. He fired.

"There was no time to aim," Horn said. "To this day, I still don't know where I shot."

Horn said he turned slightly to the right and fired toward the second man, Ortiz, who ran at a fast pace back in the direction of his neighbor's house. Torres remained in his yard and was walking back toward Horn. He fired a third shot.

Horn didn't think his shots struck either man.

"I went inside because the guy (Ortiz) disappeared," he said. "I thought he was behind the house. ... I was desperate for the police to get there."

A police car screeched to a halt in front of his house. An officer drew his gun and ordered him "on the ground."

Horn, who still had his cell phone to his ear, dropped face-first and was handcuffed.

He was eventually allowed to sit up and saw one of the men across the street, lying prone. "I thought I scared him enough to fall to the ground."

It wasn't until he overheard one officer tell another that "there were two burglars and this man just killed them" that he realized both men were dead.

The moment was surreal.

"It was like nothing I've ever felt," Horn said. "It was like it wasn't really happening. Just numb."

[email protected]

[Extra Stout]

I doubt that Horn got off because the grand jury believed he really was in fear for his life. He put himself in harm's way. The "castle" defense does not apply because there was no immediate threat to his person from the burglars.

However, there is a clause in that "castle" law that allows for the use of deadly force to prevent burglars from absconding with stolen property. The law says nothing regarding whose stolen property that is. Likely, it was this particular clause that allowed Mr. Horn to avoid prosecution.

I am not surprised that most Texans support what Mr. Horn did. We tend to think that when a person commits a criminal act, his life is forfeit, unless we are connected to that person. We also are very much into vengeance and vigilantism. The background of the burglars also tends to devalue their lives in the eyes of many. I allege that had it been a couple of teenagers from the neighborhood who were robbing houses and got themselves killed, public opinion would be substantially different.

In my view, ideally the killing of other people should be only an act of last resort.

[mrsmaalox]

I hardly ever agree with TPark, but I'm with him on this one.

For anyone of you to side with the burglars is just pure stupidity. If those two dumbasses would've stayed at home, they wouldn't be dead right now.

I'm very pro gun control, but I'm also for protecting yourself and your property if you feel threatned. It doesn't matter that they were robbing Horn's neighbor. Who is to say that they weren't going to move on to Horn's house after they swept through his neighbor's house. None of you can make an assured statment that they wouldn't have gone into Horn's house after they finished with his neighbor's house.

It's extremely plausible that Horn felt threatned. And, I believe that he did the right thing. It's not his fault that those two guys decided to committ a crime.

I'm not going to argue what the law says or doesn't say, but come on. Who's to say the mailman walking down my street is not going to go postal and shoot the the place up? Should I shoot him just to be sure?! Some folks are just oversimplifying the whole thing to make their point against their percieved "vigilantism". It was dark, Horn knew they were doing something bad, and he felt threatened. That's all there is to it.

[Extra Stout]

Isn't that how France got invaded by the Nazis in WWII? Let's ignore this Adolf Hitler guy invading Austria, Hungary, and Poland. If we just keep quiet and ignore this Hitler fellow he'll just leave us be . . . . ohhh, looks like that was a bad idea. We'll just wait for the Americans to bail us out.
You know this means you automatically lose the thread, right?

[mrsmaalox]

You know this means you automatically lose the thread, right?

That's just one reason!! :lol The other one is the blatent misunderstanding of CF's "blind eye" statement!!

[peewee's lovechild]

You know this means you automatically lose the thread, right?

Yea, but I felt like hamming it up.

[peewee's lovechild]

That's just one reason!! :lol The other one is the blatent misunderstanding of CF's "blind eye" statement!!

Not at all.

[FromWayDowntown]

I doubt that Horn got off because the grand jury believed he really was in fear for his life. He put himself in harm's way. The "castle" defense does not apply because there was no immediate threat to his person from the burglars.

However, there is a clause in that "castle" law that allows for the use of deadly force to prevent burglars from absconding with stolen property. The law says nothing regarding whose stolen property that is. Likely, it was this particular clause that allowed Mr. Horn to avoid prosecution.

I agree with this. I think there is an absurdity to a construction of the castle doctrine that allows a person to shoot someone who is burglarizing (or committing other crimes) with respect to another's property -- if I'm driving down a street in a town that I don't live in and see two guys who appear to be running away from a home with stereos in their hand, am I immediately justified in stopping my car, grabbing my gun, and shooting them dead? I think at that point, the exception basically swallows the rule and comes relatively close to justifying a wide array of homicides. It makes sense to me that the doctrine will allow me to protect my home from an invader; it doesn't make sense to me that the doctrine essentially deputizes me.


In my view, ideally the killing of other people should be only an act of last resort.

Amen to that.

[desflood]

I'm not going to argue what the law says or doesn't say, but come on. Who's to say the mailman walking down my street is not going to go postal and shoot the the place up? Should I shoot him just to be sure?
The difference is that the mailman is not already committing a potentially violent illegal act, which a burglar most definitely is.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Operator: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with that gun. I don't care what you think. Stay in the house.

Horn: You wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em.

Pretty cut and dry, IMO.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

f I'm driving down a street in a town that I don't live in and see two guys who appear to be running away from a home with stereos in their hand, am I immediately justified in stopping my car,
apples and oranges..
did this guy's house have the ability to speed up out of harms way? no. what you're trying to parallel this to isn't even in the same ballpark. i feel if you stop you put yourself in harms way. i believe in self defense and if it comes to that then shoot first and ask questions later.
you people, out of the state of texas i'm assuming, are something else trying to paint this guy as some evil guy.

[FromWayDowntown]

apples and oranges..
did this guy's house have the ability to speed up out of harms way? no. what you're trying to parallel this to isn't even in the same ballpark. i feel if you stop you put yourself in harms way. i believe in self defense and if it comes to that then shoot first and ask questions later.
you people, out of the state of texas i'm assuming, are something else trying to paint this guy as some evil guy.

Okay, so I'm walking down a street in a city I don't live in and see this happen -- can I justifiably pull my gun and start shooting? I no longer have the option of just speeding up and driving away, after all.

Oh, and I live in San Antonio by the way.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Okay, so I'm walking down a street in a city I don't live in and see this happen -- can I justifiably pull my gun and start shooting? I no longer have the option of just speeding up and driving away, after all.

Oh, and I live in San Antonio by the way.i guess i need to spell it out for you. in both cases you are mobile. be it old person speed or ludicrous speed. you can move your ass on out of there. his house is not mobile.

[FromWayDowntown]

i guess i need to spell it out for you. in both cases you are mobile. be it old person speed or ludicrous speed. you can move your ass on out of there. his house is not mobile.

Okay, so why is the shooter in this case any different from me in that example? He's mobile, isn't he? He can get away from the danger, can't he?

Is he different from me in that example only because there's some hypothetical chance that the burglars might target his home next? Then take my example again, only this time I'm walking down my street (but several houses away from my own) and I see two guys who appear to be absconding with burglarized property and running in a direction that is opposite my home, am I immediately justified in shooting to kill?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Okay, so why is the shooter in this case any different from me in that example? He's mobile, isn't he? He can get away from the danger, can't he?

Is he different from me in that example only because there's some hypothetical chance that the burglars might target his home next? Then take my example again, only this time I'm walking down my street (but several houses away from my own) and I see two guys who appear to be absconding with burglarized property and running in a direction that is opposite my home, am I immediately justified in shooting to kill?youre grasping now, chump III. this guy was in his home they knew where he lives. any example you give they are mobile and they wouldn't have a clue where you live. you can move your ass out of the whole situation.
NEXT!

[FromWayDowntown]

youre grasping now, chump III. this guy was in his home they knew where he lives. any example you give they are mobile and they wouldn't have a clue where you live. you can move your ass out of the whole situation.
NEXT!

I'm not grasping at anything -- I'm mostly interested in having someone explain to me where the castle doctrine stops if it can be used as a justification for shooting those who are robbing my neighbor's house. Assessing how the doctrine would apply in various hypothetical situations is a good way to test that.

If you're not interested in actually discussing that question -- and I'll take it from your aspersions about my intelligence that you aren't really interested in it -- I'll be happy to leave the question out there for others to answer.

I really do want to know just how far the doctrine extends. It seems I can protect my neighbor's house, but what about the guy on the next street over? Or how about the woman who lives at the other end of the street? Or maybe the guy who lives in the apartment complex next to mine?

[peewee's lovechild]

Bottom line . . . if you don't want to get shot, and possibly killed, don't go robbing houses.

It really is that simple.

If you come anywhere near my house, if I had one, I would shoot your ass dead, if I had a shotgun.

[peewee's lovechild]

And, if I shoot you dead because you were robbing my home, or because you were robbing my neighbor's house and I felt threatened that you might rob mine, I don't want your friends and family raising their fists in the air trying to make it a civil rights issue.

[Extra Stout]

If you come anywhere near my house, if I had one, I would shoot your ass dead, if I had a shotgun.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

No one deserves to die for robbing a house. The guy who shot should have just shot him the leg. Fucking moron. I bet guy who shot is probably some white trash interbred retarded Texan who thinks he's John Wayne.

[Extra Stout]

If you come near the freeway overpass where I sleep, I'll throw my empty bottles at you.

[peewee's lovechild]

I don't have a house and I don't own a weapon. But, that doesn't change the fact that I support people's right to defend themselves.

[peewee's lovechild]

No one deserves to die for robbing a house. The guy who shot should have just shot him the leg. Fucking moron. I bet guy who shot is probably some white trash interbred retarded Texan who thinks he's John Wayne.

If you come anywhere near my house and I percieve you as a threat, you sure as hell deserve to die.

And, I'm not inbred or white.

[peewee's lovechild]

If you come near the freeway overpass where I sleep, I'll throw my empty bottles at you.

Hahaha. That's funny.

[Extra Stout]

If you come anywhere near my house and I percieve you as a threat, you sure as hell deserve to die.

And, I'm not inbred or white.

*makes mental note to avoid sidewalk*

[peewee's lovechild]

*makes mental note to avoid sidewalk*

That's right.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Shooting to kill would be last resort for me. A shot or two in the leg will suffice.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

If people really cared they'd get an alarm. That should be priority 1.

[peewee's lovechild]

Shooting to kill would be last resort for me. A shot or two in the leg will suffice.

Let me get this straight.

You once said that you were willing to put your life on the line to help someone that is being threatened. You said it didn't matter if that person possibly had a weapon.

Now, you are saying that shooting to kill is a last resort.

So, if it's not your family, you're ready to put your life on the line. But, if it's your family and home that you have to defend, you're not willing kill someone that is threatening them?

[peewee's lovechild]

If people really cared they'd get an alarm. That should be priority 1.

So, the alarm goes off and someone is in your house with a weapon, are you just going to wait until the police arrive half an hour later?

[fatsack]

So, the alarm goes off and someone is in your house with a weapon, are you just going to wait until the police arrive an hour later?

fixed.

[nomanches]

I really do want to know just how far the doctrine extends. It seems I can protect my neighbor's house, but what about the guy on the next street over? Or how about the woman who lives at the other end of the street? Or maybe the guy who lives in the apartment complex next to mine?

Good question. I understand the word "neighbor" to be anyone who lives in your neighborhood. So I would consider the guy and woman the other end of the street my neighbor. They aren't my immediate neighbor, but neighbor nonetheless. And of course, as you may already know, you can only defend a neighbor's house if the neighbor gives you permission to do so.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Let me get this straight.

You once said that you were willing to put your life on the line to help someone that is being threatened. You said it didn't matter if that person possibly had a weapon.

Now, you are saying that shooting to kill is a last resort.

So, if it's not your family, you're ready to put your life on the line. But, if it's your family and home that you have to defend, you're not willing kill someone that is threatening them?


Defense can mean a lot of things. It doesn't always mean killing someone.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

So, the alarm goes off and someone is in your house with a weapon, are you just going to wait until the police arrive half an hour later?

It takes care of calling the police for you, which I consider the first priority. After that, if the situation presents itself (assuming the alarm doesn't scare off the burglers, which it is supposed to do) then go ahead and gather your familly in a safe spot and be sure to take a weapon there for security.

If you for some reason can't find a safe spot, or don't have one, than shoot the bastard(s) in a spot where they won't die, such as the leg.

I don't believe you should deliberately kill someone unless you have to.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

BTW, most burglers are drug addicts. My causin has been robbed on several occasions, and if you lock yourself in a room or hide, You're usually safe.

[FromWayDowntown]

BTW, most burglers are drug addicts. My causin has been robbed on several occasions, and if you lock yourself in a room or hide, You're usually safe.

Signed, Sean Taylor.

I'm not a gun proponent by any means, but I can certainly understand the concept of allowing a homeowner or property owner to shoot to protect his own property. I would generally agree that the preferrable method would be to attempt to shoot in a non-lethal fashion, but I can certainly understand a rule of law that essentially exempts a property owner from criminal liability when shooting to protect his own property.

What I don't understand is extending that doctrine to justify shootings (and homicides) in the name of protecting the property of others -- that seems a lot like the informal creation of a militia or a posse authorized to use lethal force to stop perceived criminal activity; and that strikes me as a rather dangerous proposition.

[MannyIsGod]

Shooting in a non lethal fashion is a bad bad bad bad thing. If you have a gun, you better be shooting to kill.

[Fillmoe]

He just shot them because they were black, if they had been white and were robbing the place he would have asked them over for coffee and cake.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Shooting in a non lethal fashion is a bad bad bad bad thing. If you have a gun, you better be shooting to kill.

That.

[peewee's lovechild]

It takes care of calling the police for you, which I consider the first priority. After that, if the situation presents itself (assuming the alarm doesn't scare off the burglers, which it is supposed to do) then go ahead and gather your familly in a safe spot and be sure to take a weapon there for security.

If you for some reason can't find a safe spot, or don't have one, than shoot the bastard(s) in a spot where they won't die, such as the leg.

I don't believe you should deliberately kill someone unless you have to.


Shooting a person in the leg that also has a gun isn't an effective way of defending yourself and your family.

[CuckingFunt]

There's no way he could have been sure that his house wasn't next and that they didn't have weapons of their own.

I don't own any weapons, and I'm all for gun control. But, even I can see that he didn't do anything wrong. Was he being preemptive? Maybe. But, I would rather be preemptive than to be a victim. There's no way in hell that I'm just going to sit back and become a potential victim.

Isn't that how France got invaded by the Nazis in WWII? Let's ignore this Adolf Hitler guy invading Austria, Hungary, and Poland. If we just keep quiet and ignore this Hitler fellow he'll just leave us be . . . . ohhh, looks like that was a bad idea. We'll just wait for the Americans to bail us out.

Hitler? You went there?

Seriously??

[RandomGuy]

Let me get this straight.

You once said that you were willing to put your life on the line to help someone that is being threatened. You said it didn't matter if that person possibly had a weapon.

Now, you are saying that shooting to kill is a last resort.

So, if it's not your family, you're ready to put your life on the line. But, if it's your family and home that you have to defend, you're not willing kill someone that is threatening them?

I would kill without hesitating any f***er who breaks into my house with a weapon in their hand.

RG's home defense:

http://i21.ebayimg.com/04/s/08/30/46/5d_2.JPG

Guns are for sissies...

[RandomGuy]

Hitler? You went there?

Seriously??

It is one of those axioms to the Laws of Probability.

As the length of any thread increases, the odds of someone mentioning either anal sex or Hitler approach 1 (certainty).

[CuckingFunt]

So, the alarm goes off and someone is in your house with a weapon, are you just going to wait until the police arrive half an hour later?

Alarm = loud noise = lots of attention = bad guys go away = they stop fucking robbing me.

[peewee's lovechild]

Hitler? You went there?

Seriously??

Did France not turn a blind eye to Hitler's invasions of Austria, Hungary, and Poland?

??

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Shooting a person in the leg that also has a gun isn't an effective way of defending yourself and your family.

Well, I have no way of refuting that, but it's not the opinion I have.

[peewee's lovechild]

It is one of those axioms to the Laws of Probability.

As the length of any thread increases, the odds of someone mentioning either anal sex or Hitler approach 1 (certainty).

Anal sex happens when a sexual deviant enters your house.

[peewee's lovechild]

But, you can call the cops for that.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Wait? Why wait?

Alarm = loud noise = lots of attention = bad guys go away = they stop fucking robbing me.

Pretty much.

[RandomGuy]

Did France not turn a blind eye to Hitler's invasions of Austria, Hungary, and Poland?

??

Actually, France declared war on Germany because of Poland...

[leemajors]

not sure if it's still true, but merely having an ADT sign used to be as effective a deterrent as actually having the alarm service.

[RandomGuy]

Anal sex happens when a sexual deviant enters your house.

Once again, the Internet Message Board Thread Axiom to the Laws of Probability is upheld.. :lol

[Ronaldo McDonald]

And also, chances are if your going to shoot someone, your going to need to be pretty accurate. If you're not, you let whoever is robbing know you're there, and you put yourself in a predicament that you could have avoided had you hidden in a safe place.

[peewee's lovechild]

Wait? Why wait?

Alarm = loud noise = lots of attention = bad guys go away = they stop fucking robbing me.

There was this show on the Discovery Channel that had this ex-professional theif that would break into homes to show how alarms can be ineffective.

They can clean you out before the cops get there. I forgot the name of the show, but I'm sure someone here might know it.

Also, last year in Houston, a woman was held hostage in her home while thiefs ransacked her house and threatned to kill her. She had a house alarm. They were able to disable the alarm system by cutting the telephone and power lines outside the house.

Yea, alarm systems are fool proof and so safe.

[peewee's lovechild]

Actually, France declared war on Germany because of Poland...

What happened when Hitler invaded Austria and Hungary? How did the French react?

And, what ultimatley happened to France because they reacted late to the Nazi threat?

[peewee's lovechild]

Once again, the Internet Message Board Thread Axiom to the Laws of Probability is upheld.. :lol

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

And also, chances are if your going to shoot someone, your going to need to be pretty accurate. If you're not, you let whoever is robbing know you're there, and you put yourself in a predicament that you could have avoided had you hidden in a safe place.

A shotgun takes accuracy out of the equation.

If they're standing near you, they're going to get hit and they're going to die.

[T Park]

Alarm = loud noise = lots of attention = bad guys go away = they stop fucking robbing me.

:lmao

Thiefs don't give a shit about that.

Give me a break

[Ronaldo McDonald]

There was this show on the Discovery Channel that had this ex-professional theif that would break into homes to show how alarms can be ineffective.

They can clean you out before the cops get there. I forgot the name of the show, but I'm sure someone here might know it.

Also, last year in Houston, a woman was held hostage in her home while thiefs ransacked her house and threatned to kill her. She had a house alarm. They were able to disable the alarm system by cutting the telephone and power lines outside the house.

Yea, alarm systems are fool proof and so safe.

You've got to get a really good alarm, which is what I've got. None of that is possible on the expensive ones.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

:lmao

Thiefs don't give a shit about that.

Give me a break

You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.

[peewee's lovechild]

You've got to get a really good alarm, which is what I've got. None of that is possible on the expensive ones.

I'm sure it's fool proof.

[peewee's lovechild]

You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.

You have no clue how fast thiefs work.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

A shotgun takes accuracy out of the equation.

If they're standing near you, they're going to get hit and they're going to die.

Either way, you've got to get in their line of fire, which is more dangerous than just avoiding the situation by just hiding.

[nomanches]

There was this show on the Discovery Channel that had this ex-professional theif that would break into homes to show how alarms can be ineffective.

"It Takes a Thief"?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I'm sure it's fool proof.

No, it isn't. The best of best is what I have.

[peewee's lovechild]

Either way, you've got to get in their line of fire, which is more dangerous than just avoiding the situation by just hiding.

Firing a shotgun is a good way to make theives leave. If they don't, it's a good way to make them die.

You can go ahead and hide, if that's your choice (eventhough you had previously stated that not involving yourself was a pussy thing to do).

I'll defend my family, only because I'm willing to put my life on the line for them (as opposed to putting my life on the line for strangers).

[peewee's lovechild]

"It Takes a Thief"?

Yea, I think that's it.

[peewee's lovechild]

No, it isn't. The best of best is what I have.

A shotgun is better.

[CuckingFunt]

Yea, alarm systems are fool proof and so safe.

Once again, no one suggested that they are.

[peewee's lovechild]

Alarm = loud noise = lots of attention = bad guys go away = they stop fucking robbing me.


:lmao

Thiefs don't give a shit about that.

Give me a break


You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.


You've got to get a really good alarm, which is what I've got. None of that is possible on the expensive ones.


Once again, no one suggested that they are.

I guess not.

[RandomGuy]

And also, chances are if your going to shoot someone, your going to need to be pretty accurate. If you're not, you let whoever is robbing know you're there, and you put yourself in a predicament that you could have avoided had you hidden in a safe place.


The experts say that the best thing to do is back into a corner, point the gun at the door, and just unload the whole clip if the door opens.

Theives might not be scared of an alarm, but 6 to 13 shots in an enclosed space, even if they all miss will make anyone soil their undies in the rush to GTFO

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Firing a shotgun is a good way to make theives leave. If they don't, it's a good way to make them die.

You can go ahead and hide, if that's your choice (eventhough you had previously stated that not involving yourself was a pussy thing to do).

I'll defend my family, only because I'm willing to put my life on the line for them (as opposed to putting my life on the line for strangers).

You're wrong on all that. You're recollection of what I said in that discussion is pretty spotty.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

The experts say that the best thing to do is back into a corner, point the gun at the door, and just unload the whole clip if the door opens.

This is what I would do.

What I wouldn't do, is go out of my way to shoot them before finding a place of hide. Your putting yourself on the offensive, which I don't personally feel is the smart thing to do in a robbery situation.

[peewee's lovechild]

You're wrong on all that. You're recollection of what I said in that discussion is pretty spotty.

So, you're saying that you didn't say that people who don't intervene are pussies? You didn't say that you would intervene, regardless of the possibility of someone having a weapon?

Is that what you are saying?

[peewee's lovechild]

Your putting yourself on the offensive, which I don't personally feel is the smart thing to do.

But, intervening in public and putting yourself in harms way is perfectly acceptable?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I'm not going to repeat it. I stated my position in that thread.

[CuckingFunt]

I guess not.

And where, exactly, did any of those posts suggest that alarms were an absolutely "fool proof" method of protection?

As has been pointed out to you, repeatedly, in almost every argument you've been involved in here, things aren't always one way OR the other. Saying that alarms can be effective is NOT THE SAME thing as saying that they never fail.

If you and/or your belongings are the specific target of a planned burglary by professional/experienced thieves, then, no, an alarm probably isn't going to do much to keep them from getting your stuff. However, I'd hazard a guess that's not the case with most home burglaries. You're likely to be dealing with a situation in which people are trying to get what they can quickly and with minimum hassle, in which case an alarm could be a deterrent. Same reason that you're unlikely to get robbed if you're in a second floor (or higher) apartment -- heavy items, stairs, and loud sirens all bring attention and/or slow you down. Guarantee that you're never, ever, ever going to get robbed? Of course not. But it could be a deterrent.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/personal-survival-tactics.asp


Ninety five percent of the confrontations involving us regular civilian folks occur at three to five feet--nose to nose and toes to toes; up close and damn personal. At this distance you will not have time to even aim your weapon. I know, the so-called "experts" say it doesn't take any more time to acquire a proper sight picture than it does to "shoot from the hip". I suspect these "experts" have never been there for real. I hear the "Weaver" and "Isosceles" stances being touted as the only way to go when needing a combat shooting platform. These are both very good stances if you are clearing a hostile area or while shooting competition, but in defensive shooting situations that I've been involved in--and there have been a few--I never once was able to tell my adversary to wait while I get into a proper stance. In reality, you are going to have to react from whatever position you happen to be in at the time. Attacks do not come when you are expecting them. You are attacked while you have your hands full of packages or something else. You will be looking away or not paying attention to what is going on around you. You may be even in a sitting position in a restaurant or in your vehicle. If possible get balanced on your feet. Shift your weight forward, out over the leading foot and knee. This will help reduce muzzle flip and recoil, thus letting you get the weapon back on target more rapidly. Remember, it may take more than one shot to stop an attacker.

Yee-hah!!, and empty the clip.

[RandomGuy]

Interesting bit I found while Googling, for what it is worth:

Most burglaries that are simple property crimes are done in the day, while the owner is presumed out. These crimes tend to be done by people simply out for money.

Night time burglaries have a much higher chance of being a "home invasion" scenario with the criminal prepared and armed somehow, who are looking for a "rush".

[peewee's lovechild]

And where, exactly, did any of those posts suggest that alarms were an absolutely "fool proof" method of protection?

As has been pointed out to you, repeatedly, in almost every argument you've been involved in here, things aren't always one way OR the other. Saying that alarms can be effective is NOT THE SAME thing as saying that they never fail.

If you and/or your belongings are the specific target of a planned burglary by professional/experienced thieves, then, no, an alarm probably isn't going to do much to keep them from getting your stuff. However, I'd hazard a guess that's not the case with most home burglaries. You're likely to be dealing with a situation in which people are trying to get what they can quickly and with minimum hassle, in which case an alarm could be a deterrent. Same reason that you're unlikely to get robbed if you're in a second floor (or higher) apartment -- heavy items, stairs, and loud sirens all bring attention and/or slow you down. Guarantee that you're never, ever, ever going to get robbed? Of course not. But it could be a deterrent.

There is quite a bit of guessing and "could be" in this post.

I'd rather take the guessing out of it and shoot whomever is in my property.

[peewee's lovechild]

I'm just not willing to become a victim.

[T Park]

I'm with ya peewee.

I'm not up for negotiating or "talking" with the criminals, like some would wnat to do.

UNDERSTAND where the poor criminal is coming from.

[FromWayDowntown]

Again, though, where does it end? Can you shoot to defend your neighbor's property? This case says yes. But what about the guy who lives 4 houses down? or the lady who lives 3 blocks over? Or the guy who lives on the other side of town? or the lady who lives a mile away from your cousins in Amarillo?

[Trainwreck2100]

Again, though, where does it end? Can you shoot to defend your neighbor's property? This case says yes. But what about the guy who lives 4 houses down? or the lady who lives 3 blocks over? Or the guy who lives on the other side of town? or the lady who lives a mile away from your cousins in Amarillo?

Like the article said if the neighbor said to keep an eye on his property, it is within the law.

I just wonder how long this takes to become an episode of Law and Order

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I'm with ya peewee.

I'm not up for negotiating or "talking" with the criminals, like some would wnat to do.

UNDERSTAND where the poor criminal is coming from.

Who the hell said you had to talk with the people (or person) robbing your house? What the hell kind of discussion did you dream up in your head?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Again, though, where does it end? Can you shoot to defend your neighbor's property? This case says yes. But what about the guy who lives 4 houses down? or the lady who lives 3 blocks over? Or the guy who lives on the other side of town? or the lady who lives a mile away from your cousins in Amarillo?

Story says no.


In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion.

But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case.

"It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was.

"It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle."

[FromWayDowntown]

Story says no.

And so does the law's sponsor. I can see that a grand jury or even a jury might choose to let the guy off for any number of reasons, but the castle doctrine would not seem to be one of them -- as Senator Wentworth says -- because the guy's home was never in danger.

And it makes no sense to me to extend the doctrine to protecting property other than your own. I'm glad to agree with Senator Wentworth on that issue.

[Clandestino]

not sure if has been said, but what is most impressive is this guy didn't freeze up and had the balls to pull the trigger... many people when faced with a decision like this, freeze up and can't do anything...whether it be run, hide or pull the trigger...

HERO! all the way

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And it makes no sense to me to extend the doctrine to protecting property other than your own. I'm glad to agree with Senator Wentworth on that issue.

Vigilantism would skyrocket if that were the case.

[Kermit]

not sure if has been said, but what is most impressive is this guy didn't freeze up and had the balls to pull the trigger... many people when faced with a decision like this, freeze up and can't do anything...whether it be run, hide or pull the trigger...

HERO! all the way

He would disagree with you. He, being the guy who shot and killed two people.

[T Park]

not sure if has been said, but what is most impressive is this guy didn't freeze up and had the balls to pull the trigger... many people when faced with a decision like this, freeze up and can't do anything...whether it be run, hide or pull the trigger...

HERO! all the way

for his sake, he had to.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

not sure if has been said, but what is most impressive is this guy didn't freeze up and had the balls to pull the trigger... many people when faced with a decision like this, freeze up and can't do anything...whether it be run, hide or pull the trigger...

HERO! all the way

Is he still a hero if he had shot and killed a 14 year old white kid?

[Trainwreck2100]

Is he still a hero if he had shot and killed a 14 year old white kid?

you must have read this story


Boy, 14, Breaks Into Home, Orders $100 Worth Of Porn Movies

PALM BAY, Fla. -- A 14-year-old boy broke into a Central Florida home and ordered more than $100 worth of porn movies on the family's television, police said.

Palm Bay police officers were called to a home on the 3200 block of Hainlin Avenue to investigate a break-in and discovered the crime, Local 6 News partner Florida Today.

Palm Bay police said the family had just returned from shopping when the boy was found watching television.

An investigation showed that the boy ordered about $129 worth of pornography on the victim’s television account.

The boy was charged with occupied burglary and grand theft.

The same teen, a Riverdale Country School student, was arrested June 25 and turned over to juvenile authorities before his mother was contacted. The teen has been arrested on felony charges before and will face a juvenile judge later this month, police reported.

Watch Local 6 News for more on this story.

http://www.local6.com/news/16767927/detail.html

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Kid blew his load and his future.

[FromWayDowntown]

for his sake, he had to.

Why? The burglars weren't entering his home. He could have stayed inside and remained perfectly safe. What about that scenario says that he had to shoot and kill these individuals?

Again, I have no problem with the castle doctrine as a legal principle; I have a big problem with applying it to situations that go beyond the sphere of protection that the law is meant to provide.

Here, for example, the shooter and his property were apparently in no danger, so I have no idea why he "had to" pull the trigger and shoot the burglars or why that decision is justifiable.

[T Park]

Why? The burglars weren't entering his home. He could have stayed inside and remained perfectly safe. What about that scenario says that he had to shoot and kill these individuals?

Again, I have no problem with the castle doctrine as a legal principle; I have a big problem with applying it to situations that go beyond the sphere of protection that the law is meant to provide.

Here, for example, the shooter and his property were apparently in no danger, so I have no idea why he "had to" pull the trigger and shoot the burglars or why that decision is justifiable.

The part about the guy coming at him with a crowbar to me, would be frightening.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I will ask this, where does them being illegal/undocumented come into the story?

[FromWayDowntown]

The part about the guy coming at him with a crowbar to me, would be frightening.

Had he stayed in his house, nobody would have come at him with a crowbar.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The part about the guy coming at him with a crowbar to me, would be frightening.

Who put Joe Horn in the immediate position to have a guy threaten him with a crowbar?

[T Park]

Who put Joe Horn in the immediate position to have a guy threaten him with a crowbar?

The robber.

[T Park]

Had he stayed in his house, nobody would have come at him with a crowbar.

Had he stayed in his house, worse things could've happened.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The robber.

Oh, Horn called 911 in front of the robber?

[FromWayDowntown]

Who put Joe Horn in the immediate position to have a guy threaten him with a crowbar?

Um, that would be Joe Horn, I believe, since he could have simply remained in his home.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Had he stayed in his house, worse things could've happened.

Or nothing else could have happened.

[FromWayDowntown]

Had he stayed in his house, worse things could've happened.

And had worse things happened to his home, Horn would have been completely justified in defending himself and his home with a firearm. But it's absurd, in my opinion, to think that he could interject himself into a crime scene and then find justification for shooting at the suspects.

What you're essentially saying, TPark, is that if I observe something that I believe to be criminal behavior going on around me, I'm completely justified in pulling a gun and shooting the person who I believe is engaging in criminal conduct. As I've noted elsewhere, you're deputizing me. But note that you're also deputizing any number of people who might not act with good intentions or who might perceive criminal activity to be ongoing where there is no criminal act -- and you're shrouding them with legal justification for pulling guns and shooting those they suspect of crimes.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

So when can I expect Best Buy's blue shirts to begin popping a cap in shoplifters' asses?

[peewee's lovechild]

Is he still a hero if he had shot and killed a 14 year old white kid?

If the kid had been robbing a home, hell yea.

Why are you trying to make this a race issue?

[peewee's lovechild]

Had he stayed in his house, nobody would have come at him with a crowbar.

Had they stayed at home, they wouldn't be dead right now.

[RandomGuy]

I'm with ya peewee.

I'm not up for negotiating or "talking" with the criminals, like some would wnat to do.

UNDERSTAND where the poor criminal is coming from.

Who is that exactly?

[Kermit]

Who is that exactly?

You know, Some. The liberalhippiedouche that permeates all of society.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

If the kid had been robbing a home, hell yea.

Why are you trying to make this a race issue?

Because I don't think most people would feel as inclined to pull the trigger.

[RandomGuy]

I'm not up for negotiating or "talking" with the criminals, like some would wnat to do.

UNDERSTAND where the poor criminal is coming from.


Who is that exactly?



You know, Some. The liberalhippiedouche that permeates all of society.

I have never met anyone who holds that point of view. Many of my friends are liberals.

I have never read any statement from anybody regarded as liberal that says we shouldn't defend ourselves, or talk to them instead of arresting them.

Such people live only in people like TPark's mind for the purpose of what is known as "strawman" arguments, i.e. distort someones views until it seems ridiculous and treat the distortion as reality.

[Kermit]

I have never met anyone who holds that point of view. Many of my friends are liberals.

I have never read any statement from anybody regarded as liberal that says we shouldn't defend ourselves, or talk to them instead of arresting them.

Such people live only in people like TPark's mind for the purpose of what is known as "strawman" arguments, i.e. distort someones views until it seems ridiculous and treat the distortion as reality.

You must be talking about the "Chewbacca defense."

[RandomGuy]

You must be talking about the "Chewbacca defense."

"Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case?

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, liberals want to talk to criminals!!"

I can see it now.

[peewee's lovechild]

Because I don't think most people would feel as inclined to pull the trigger.

So, you're saying only black theifs get shot?

[peewee's lovechild]

"Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case?

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, liberals want to talk to criminals!!"

I can see it now.

I'm a moderate and I would kill anyone in or on my property without any hesitation.

[Extra Stout]

So, you're saying only black theifs get shot?
Corollary to Godwin's Law: Anybody who butchers the spelling of "thieves" that badly automatically loses the thread.

You have now twice automatically lost this thread. Grand jurors reading this thread are now reconsidering their decision not to indict Horn.

[peewee's lovechild]

Corollary to Godwin's Law: Anybody who butchers the spelling of "thieves" that badly automatically loses the thread.

You have now twice automatically lost this thread. Grand jurors reading this thread are now reconsidering their decision not to indict Horn.

:lmao

I just got back from a buffet.

I can't think clearly.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

So, you're saying only black theifs get shot?

I really don't know what I meant by it...I just THINK (I don't know) that maybe for a lot of white people (I'm not saying all), they'd be more hesitant to shoot white person than a black person. Maybe it's for the simple fact that I've been aquainted with a lot of racist white and mexican people in my life.

[peewee's lovechild]

I really don't know what I meant by it...I just THINK (I don't know) that maybe for a lot of white people (I'm not saying all), they'd be more hesitant to shoot white person than a black person. Maybe it's for the simple fact that I've been aquainted with a lot of racist white and mexican people in my life.

That's a pretty racist statement.

[Useruser666]

Trenton Houghton (15) was shot and killed after breaking into a house with friends
Filed Under: Shot
Published: Mar 30, 2008 @ 1:50 AM
Your Ad Here

Trenton Houghton (15)

Date: Jun 19, 2006
Cause of Death: Shot
Location: Longview, Texas
URL: go to their myspace
Advertise on this site A reported burglary in East Texas, early Monday, leaves one teen dead, another injured and a third behind bars. Three teenagers are accused of breaking into the home. This happened overnight, around 3:30 AM at a house featured in Longview''s Parade of Homes. The home is on the 1100 block of Camille Drive in Longview.

"I heard a lot of banging on the door and ringing the door bell," says Nathan Lanicek, who lives near crime scene.

Nathan Lanicek answered his door to find 14 year old Josh Cominsky covered with blood. Josh and another friend were shot during an alleged home break in.

"According to the homeowner, he was asleep and he heard some noise and heard some glass breaking. Prior to going into the living room the homeowner had armed himself with a firearm. He went into the living room and confronted several subjects one of which he thought was holding some type of weapon," says Sergeant Shaun Pendleton, Public Information Officer with Longview.

That''s when the homeowner fired his shotgun... hitting 15 year old, Trenton Joseph Houghton of Hallsville. Houghton ran into the woods. He later died at Longview Regional Hospital.

One teen, 17 year old Gregory Lynn Allison, was taken into custody, facing burglary charges.

14 year old Josh Cominsky was also wounded. He had more than 100 pellets in his back. Cominsky ran to a house but no one answered. His blood still left on that door. He ended up at Nathan''s house.

"He started complaining about having trouble breathing and someone had shot at him so I had him take his shirt off and check for wounds. When he turned around I saw he had been shot in the back with a shot gun. He had close to 100 pellets in his back. I was just trying to get him to calm down and keep the bleeding down until the ambulance got here. I never saw any remorse so but I never did get an admission either," says Nathan Lanicek.

Cominsky is at Good Shepherd Medical Center where he is listed in fair condition.

However his grandmother says the story police are giving and the one her grandson told her don''t match.

"Why didn''t he shot up in the air. How do you shot one time, say you shot one time, and one boy is shot point black in the front and another in the back, that was going over the fence. What is the point, what is the point... He is going to have to live with that. We have two teenagers one they say is in the hospital and the other one is dead. I''m not excusing anything, I''m not excusing anything but I understand they weren''t in the house," says, Louretta Sok, Grandmother of Josh Cominsky.

We spoke with police. They say according to the homeowner''s statement, the teens were in his living room. Longview Police say as far as charges against the homeowner. That will be up to the District Attorney''s office. Texas law does says you have the right to protect your property. But, police say if you use deadly force, you better be ready to explain why.
Related Article(s): Home Break In Leaves One Teen Dead, One Injured And Another Behind Bars

[0201rinckwater]

"Why didn''t he shot up in the air.

:lmao


And who pays for the ceiling repairs