Bush's Social Security Plan

[xrayzebra]

Okay, all you young folks, got any comments to make on What President
Bush is proposing to let you invest some of your SOC money? It isn't
going to affect me, I am too old. But it will many of you.

[Hook Dem]

Okay, all you young folks, got any comments to make on What President
Bush is proposing to let you invest some of your SOC money? It isn't
going to affect me, I am too old. But it will many of you.
Five will get you ten that you get at least one comment here about wearing "depends" or taking "geritol". :lol

[MsMcGillyCutty]

I'm planning on having a man take care of me in my old days.

Thank God for medicare and viagra!!

[xrayzebra]

Five will get you ten that you get at least one comment here about wearing "depends" or taking "geritol". :lol

Yep, you are right. It would be nice if some of the "posters" on this board
would give some really serious thought to their future tho, instead of
saving the world for the thugs. But what do I know I only been around long
enough for WWII, Korea, Viet Nam and WTC bombings. I served in
two of the four mentioned. And personally acquainted with one person
who went through WTC bombings. Believe me when I say they have little
use for the folks we are fighting. Oops, destroying through our "illegal"
"Making money off Oil" efforts.

[xrayzebra]

I'm planning on having a man take care of me in my old days.

Thank God for medicare and viagra!!
:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Hook Dem]

Since it won't affect me either, I'll let the young ones figure out what they want. I have some ideas about it but it would be fruitless to address them. Think hard youngsters. This will seriously affect your future.

[office handle]

how about we cut you off old man

[Hook Dem]

how about we cut you off old man
You can try sweetheart! Good luck! :lol

[office handle]

you just called a man a "sweetheart"

[Hook Dem]

you just called a man a "sweetheart"
See....you're assuming! How do you know I'm a man?

[Hook Dem]

you just called a man a "sweetheart"
Somehow, I knew that would go over your head! :lol

[xrayzebra]

how about we cut you off old man

You know this is the kind of comment I expect from most of you.
You think I am wrong, go back and read all the post most of you make
about your country and your support thereof.

What most of you don't understand is that we won the war in Viet Nam
and lost the war in the press here in the United States. People like
Uncle Walter and son Dan lost the war, the people fighting it didn't. Now
we have those of you here who would do the same about Iraq. I for
one will not stand by and let that happen, not again.

[office handle]

See....you're assuming! How do you know I'm a man?

because you posted a picture of yourself once and identified yourself as a man

[exstatic]

What most of you don't understand is that we won the war in Viet Nam
and lost the war in the press here in the United States.

BZZZT! Wrong, but thank you for playing I can parrot NeoCon talking points! The VN conflict was lost in the offices of 1600 PA ave. and the Capitol building. You think the fucking press put the ROE limitations on? Putz.

[office handle]

yeah it's pretty hard to argue that we won in vietnam. you dont win running away.

[MannyIsGod]

Who need's SSN when there are IRAs?

[exstatic]

Who need's SSN when there are IRAs?
Easy for you twenty-somethings to say. I've paid into the fucker for 20+ years. Yes, I have an IRA and a 401K.

[Yonivore]

I'm for any plan that reduces the amount of money deducted from my paycheck.

[office handle]

how about a plan that shifts the burden of paying for the federal government from the wealthiest 1% or so onto you?

[spurster]

1. Privatization has not been a winner where it has been tried, e.g., Great Britian and Chile.

2. Privatization would put a huge hole in the deficit now. Would borrowing now pay off later? See point 1. I would offset some of this by repealing a large part of the tax cuts.

3. While most people might make good decisions, a substantial fraction will not, e.g. Enron 401k's going up in smoke, or putting it in low interest rate funds, or account managers taking large fees.

Done right, I think it would be a good thing. I think a lot of teacher retirement funds do a decent job, e.g. California system, TIAA-CREF. If the system limited you to a small number of sound choices and required low-cost management, it should work in the long run.

[office handle]

one thing to think about is that the current SS surplus is going not into a trust or "lockbox" if you will but rather into the general federal budget. so when bush pushed through the cuts in the federal income tax rates he was only shifting more of the burden of paying for the federal government onto those who are paying the regressive SS and Medicare taxes. another neat little catch is that the AMT was never repealed, so a lot of upper middle class and middle class taxpayers wont be getting the full tax cut they expected for the rest of this decade or so.

bush done screwed up when he expanded medicare to cover prescription drugs, as well as all of his other prolifigate spending. expanding medicare yet claiming that SS is going bankrupt seems off to me

[Yonivore]

how about a plan that shifts the burden of paying for the federal government from the wealthiest 1% or so onto you?
How 'bout a flat tax or a consumption tax?

[office handle]

great in theory, but in practice you pretty much end up with what we have now.

would cap gains, interest, and dividends be included in taxable income under a flat tax? what about estates? what happens to the gift tax? and so on.

lets be honest here, any tax system is going to provide enough tools for those at the top of the wealth chain to minimize their effective rate.

as for a consumption tax, what rate(s) would be used? if you arent careful you can end up with a decidedly regressive tax.

[xrayzebra]

great in theory, but in practice you pretty much end up with what we have now.

would cap gains, interest, and dividends be included in taxable income under a flat tax? what about estates? what happens to the gift tax? and so on.

lets be honest here, any tax system is going to provide enough tools for those at the top of the wealth chain to minimize their effective rate.

as for a consumption tax, what rate(s) would be used? if you arent careful you can end up with a decidedly regressive tax.


England uses a VAT (value added tax) of about 20 percent, but they also
have the Income Tax. Taxes are something that must be paid, but it is
always not me kinda thing. Sales Taxes are said to be repressive for the
poor (?). I'm not sure they are, but the argument is all their pay is spent
so they pay the most sales tax, while the "rich" only pay a portion of their
income in sales tax. But that is an argument unto itself. The Federal
government has always used the SOC tax to hold down the so called
deficit and replaced the money with Government bonds. Now that it is
getting close to having cash some of these bonds...well who knows what
is going to happen. SOC money is not the only "pot" government has tapped, the highways funds, airport funds and others have been used
for the same purpose. Smoke and mirrors is not just a Republican thing,
some seemed to forget that the Demo's were in charge for 40 years and
yes the Pubs did their share of the deed themselves. But to me, if I
were younger, think I would want my own account, which I could control
to a degree and pass on to my family at the end. You know Uncle Sam
pays no bills, creates no wealth or takes care of anyone. We do, with
the money they take from us. Each and every one of us. From the
riches to the poorest, it is just that some of the poorest get a little more of
it back and are told that Uncle Sam is giving this to you......yeah, you bet.

[office handle]

what if the top 1% or so have had more of their burden shifted onto the upper middle class and middle class due to bush's tax rate cuts?

also, when you take into account all federal taxes the effective rate for the bottom quintile and the top quintile end up being about the same.

i agree, both parties are to blame for the mess of the tax code, but we've had the supposedly reform minded republicans in control of congress for a decade now and what progress has there been on tax simplification and reduction of loopholes? how about code enforcement?

[Yonivore]

what if the top 1% or so have had more of their burden shifted onto the upper middle class and middle class due to bush's tax rate cuts?

also, when you take into account all federal taxes the effective rate for the bottom quintile and the top quintile end up being about the same.
I believe every American should be invested in their government and that a proportional share of the taxes should be provided by each and every American.

10% (and no, I'm not suggesting the rate) of nothing is nothing so the destitute wouldn't pay.

[office handle]

what about estates? gifts? cap gains? whats included and what is excluded?

[xrayzebra]

what about estates? gifts? cap gains? whats included and what is excluded?

The bottom line is: what do we want Government to do. Do we want
them to provide just the essentials; by that I mean, the military, roads,
airports, sewer, water and other safety issues. Or do we want them to
provide all the social issues. The arts, the gay and lesban agenda,
SOC, health care for all the different groups: MEDICARE, children, disabled,
poor or all citizens. Public radio, public TV, every other charity group.
I included the Gays and Lesbians because it is purely sexual in nature and
their lifestyle revolves around their sexual preference. We now have so
many groups receiving aid from Government that I could not even begin to
cover them in a post on this forum. But back to the basic question: What
do we want our Government to provide. I know the basic post in this
thread was about a federal program: SOC. But look at all levels of
government and what they are providing. Is this really what we want them
to do? Because if it is, then we have to pay the bill and paying the bill
is in only one form, Taxes. I don't care how they (the polls) phrase it,
user fees, sales tax, cigarette tax, whatever it all amounts to the same
thing: TAXES.

About your statement:


"i agree, both parties are to blame for the mess of the tax code, but we've had the supposedly reform minded republicans in control of congress for a decade now and what progress has there been on tax simplification and reduction of loopholes? how about code enforcement? "

Kennedy cut taxes during his administration, Regan during his and now
Bush has during his. In all these administations revenue increased, but
congress, mostly Democrats, but with the blessings of some Republicans
increased spending. Simplification, what a joke. There are so many "special"
interest groups doing their thing with the code, I am not sure it could ever
be "simplified" or the "loopholes" closed. What I and many others like to
see is the whole tax code thrown out and re-written from scratch. But
I wont hold my breath on that, because blue isn't my favorite color. Code
enforcement. Look at San Antonio and ask the question again. I would
bet money they couldn't enforce codes because they have given so many
abatements and never collected, with few exceptions, from those who
have reneged on their agreement.

[office handle]

whoa, i was discussing taxes and now we are onto lesbians?

anyways, whats taxed and what is not? how are gifts handled? estates? investment income?

[sbsquared]

I don't think there should be taxes on gifts - in simple terms - I don't have to pay a tax if you give me a present for Christmas, why should I have to pay a tax on money given to me that you've already been taxed on?

Same thing goes for Estate taxes - that is just pure thievery! A person works hard his whole life and amasses a fortune - he dies and leaves it to his heirs - and, lo and behold, the government thinks they should pay an exhorbitant tax on it again? I say no way!

[office handle]

but what if they were never taxed on some of that income that went into amassing their fortune to begin with?

[Hook Dem]

Who need's SSN when there are IRAs?
Regardless of what you say or think, I'll bet you're gonna need it should you reach the status of senior citizen. And I'll also bet you wont turn it down since you would have contributed over the years. It parallels the thinking on life insurance. It's hard to sell it to young people and impossible to sell it to senior citizens because of being cost prohibitive.

[Yonivore]

I used to be a proponet of a flat tax but, your questions reveal the flaw in that proposition...just what constitutes "income" and how many times is that "income" taxed?

So, I've investigated and have signed on with the tax policy proposed at www.fairtax.org. From their website:


Simply put, the FairTax replaces the way we're currently taxed - based on our annual income - with a tax on goods and services. The FairTax is a voluntary “consumption" tax: the more you buy, the more you pay in taxes, the less you buy, the less you pay in taxes.

Everyone pays their fair share of taxes, and with the FairTax rebate, spending up to the poverty level is tax free. The Federal government is fully funded, including Social Security and Medicare, and you don't need an expert to determine your Federal taxes.

It's simple.

[Hook Dem]

I used to be a proponet of a flat tax but, your questions reveal the flaw in that proposition...just what constitutes "income" and how many times is that "income" taxed?

So, I've investigated and have signed on with the tax policy proposed at www.fairtax.org. From their website:
But look at all the Bureaucrats you'll be putting out of work! :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Yoni, I LARGELY advocate that form of taxing. We agree on something again, the last time that happend it snowed.

[Hook Dem]

Yoni, I LARGELY advocate that form of taxing. We agree on something again, the last time that happend it snowed.
Well, I told you once before that you missed your calling , so I'm gonna get my snowshoes ready! :lol

[xrayzebra]

I used to be a proponet of a flat tax but, your questions reveal the flaw in that proposition...just what constitutes "income" and how many times is that "income" taxed?

So, I've investigated and have signed on with the tax policy proposed at www.fairtax.org. From their website:

Yoni, aren't you talking about "sales tax". Isn't that what has Texas in
trouble now? There is a plan out there about consumption taxes, but it
takes into consideration all goods and services. Or am I confused?

[Yonivore]

Yoni, aren't you talking about "sales tax". Isn't that what has Texas in
trouble now? There is a plan out there about consumption taxes, but it
takes into consideration all goods and services. Or am I confused?
You're confused.