IRAQ if jacked, what do we do?

[2centsworth]

I'm thinking we need a scape goat. Try and convict GW for murder? As a patriot he should take the fall whether it's justified or not.

[ChumpDumper]

Hitting the sauce a little early, I see.

Is Bush responsible for anything that has gone badly in Iraq?

Yes or no.

[2centsworth]

Hitting the sauce a little early, I see.

Is Bush responsible for anything that has gone badly in Iraq?

Yes or no.

ultimately yes. I'm being serious about him taking the fall too. I don't see how us abandoning IRAQ and the ensuming blood bath helps our country. Or maybe it does, but we need a strong stomach.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree it's better for our reputation if we referee the ethnic cleansing going on there -- but allowing bloodbaths to happen in foreign countries is nothing new for either Democratic or Republican administrations, and not a strong argument for staying there.

[2centsworth]

I agree it's better for our reputation if we referee the ethnic cleansing going on there -- but allowing bloodbaths to happen in foreign countries is nothing new for either Democratic or Republican administrations, and not a strong argument for staying there.

for our reputation I offer Bush as a sacrifice, but the refering is a moral issue.

[ChumpDumper]

You offer?

Well ok. It would be good to know what conditions would facilitate an exit though.

[2centsworth]

You offer?

Well ok. It would be good to know what conditions would facilitate an exit though.

here are two:

1. decrease in violence

2. somewhat organized government in place


both conditions have been met, so a draw down is in order.

[DarrinS]

allowing bloodbaths to happen in foreign countries is nothing new for either Democratic or Republican administrations


QFT

[boutons_]

It's hilarious how right-wingers say "dubya has to stay in Iraq to prevent a bloodbath".

Since when did jingoistic right-wingers start giving a shit about brown/Arab/Muslim blood, other than when it suits their pro-oil rhetoric?

dubya has already caused a huge (civilian) bloodbath in Iraq, 100s of 1000s of Iraqis slaughtered as a direct result of dubya's "liberation", plus 5M Iraqi refugees, ethnic cleansing, etc, etc. None of which the pro-warriors have any objection to.

[ElNono]

We should send dubya to iraq after he hands over the keys to whoever the next president will be.

He can't return until there's finally a democracy in iraq, with social stability and a country that can run by itself. Just what he's been babbling about for all these years.

My bet is that he gets blown to pieces in some car bombing/mortar fire/whatever within months of being there, and everything goes to shit anyways.

[2centsworth]

We should send dubya to iraq after he hands over the keys to whoever the next president will be.

He can't return until there's finally a democracy in iraq, with social stability and a country that can run by itself. Just what he's been babbling about for all these years.

My bet is that he gets blown to pieces in some car bombing/mortar fire/whatever within months of being there, and everything goes to shit anyways.

I'm not a traitor and wouldn't sell out my president, but I think my president should be a patriot and sacrifice himself for the good of the country. However, if he doesn't I'm surely am not going to try to force it.

[ElNono]

I'm not a traitor and wouldn't sell out my president, but I think my president should be a patriot and sacrifice himself for the good of the country. However, if he doesn't I'm surely am not going to try to force it.

Well, we're not going to win in Iraq. And I think we can get international help (real help), if we were to acknowledge we can't deal with it anymore, and we need to pull out, but we would like help to make sure a massacre won't happen.
I will be a defeat by all means, but will make countries like Russia, China, even Spain that withdrew their troops from that war already, to help out police the country. I'm sure they'll like to take something in exchange. Perhaps an oil field or two. But there's always a price to pay for failure.

[xrayzebra]

dubya has already caused a huge (civilian) bloodbath in Iraq, 100s of 1000s of Iraqis slaughtered as a direct result of dubya's "liberation", plus 5M Iraqi refugees, ethnic cleansing, etc, etc. None of which the pro-warriors have any objection to.

Boutons, Documented civilian deaths from violence

85,407 – 93,149

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

[ElNono]

Boutons, Documented civilian deaths from violence

85,407 – 93,149

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

[PEP]

Last I heard from Anbar province in Iraq the violence was at an all time low and the Iraqis have taken over security from the Marines. The last 4 months have been the lowest casualties for US forces in the entire 5 years of fighting. Doesnt sound like any progress is being made.

[Wild Cobra]

Last I heard from Anbar province in Iraq the violence was at an all time low and the Iraqis have taken over security from the Marines. The last 4 months have been the lowest casualties for US forces in the entire 5 years of fighting. Doesnt sound like any progress is being made.

You have to remember that progress for the demonrats means having cause to pull out. They don't see that type of progress, and have to exagerate things.

[ElNono]

Everything is so stable in Iraq, that if the US leaves tomorrow, there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war. Plus, as violence diminishes in Iraq, it grows in Afghanistan. Ofcourse, we're too stretched already to have sizeable forces in both places.
So, this is progress?

[Nbadan]

Everything is so stable in Iraq, that if the US leaves tomorrow, there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war. Plus, as violence diminishes in Iraq, it grows in Afghanistan. Ofcourse, we're too stretched already to have sizeable forces in both places.
So, this is progress?

Not to mention we've now armed the Sunni and given both sides (and the Kurds) boat-loads of cash to buy plenty more weapons for when inevitably Dubya leaves office and a different administration has to deal with his cluster-fuck...

[jochhejaam]

inevitably Dubya leaves office and a different administration...
That stills leaves us with the Democratic controlled Congress, and their 18% approval rating, that has funded this "unjust war" every step of the way.


"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun".

[PEP]

Everything is so stable in Iraq, that if the US leaves tomorrow, there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war. Plus, as violence diminishes in Iraq, it grows in Afghanistan. Ofcourse, we're too stretched already to have sizeable forces in both places.
So, this is progress?

Question for you Einstein, will we be leaving Iraq tomorrow or next month or next year? Nope, so your point is worthless. Lets hear some real world issues not what if's or maybe.

US deaths are already higher in Afghanistan than Iraq for the past 2 months, once we slowly increase the troops in Afghanistan and push deeper in Taliban zones there will be even more troop deaths, thats what happens in war baby. Eventually once the Taliban are slowly killed off, the deaths will decrease just as they have since the surge in Iraq. Its just war, dont take it personally.

[boutons_]

"there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war."

That's just Repug fear-mongering, the same Repug who demonstrably got gotten all their fabricated "facts" and predictions WRONG about IRAQ.

We are now supposed to believe the "civil-war-when-US-leaves" prediction, as justification and smoke-screen for multi-decade occupation until the oil is stolen.

The Repugs don't give the tiniest shit about brown/Muslim/Arab blood until that blood gets in the way of the oil.

If the Repugs could rip off all the oil by 1 Sep, the US military would be pulled out 2 Sep. The USA already occupies neighboring Gulf states to assure the USA gets the oil. Iraq is just another oil country to be occupied for oil.

USA broke Iraq, and now USA truly owns the Iraq oil. Mission Accomplished.

[GopherSA]

Way to go, Boutons...keeping up that juvenile thought process.

Of course there are no minorities in the Republican Party...and of course, the Democrats were not the party that fought the Civil Rights Bill.

[ElNono]

Question for you Einstein, will we be leaving Iraq tomorrow or next month or next year? Nope, so your point is worthless. Lets hear some real world issues not what if's or maybe.

You want to hear a real issue? Sure. What do we do now that the Taliban attacks from Pakistan? We made our bed with that country. They have no problem harboring terrorists and being a breeding ground for them.
Hey, it's not your fault. You didn't come up with this failed strategy. But it's a real problem right now.



US deaths are already higher in Afghanistan than Iraq for the past 2 months, once we slowly increase the troops in Afghanistan and push deeper in Taliban zones there will be even more troop deaths, thats what happens in war baby. Eventually once the Taliban are slowly killed off, the deaths will decrease just as they have since the surge in Iraq. Its just war, dont take it personally.
Afghanistan is the living proof of what happens when we take troops out of one area and reroute it to another. Who's to say that once you start moving troops out of Iraq and into Afghanistan violence won't come back into Iraq? There's actual proof to the contrary. And of course it's a personal issue. Because if not me, my kids are going to have to pay for the billions we're spending weekly in a stupid war (Iraq) that distracts us from going after the war we should be fighting (Afghanistan).

[ElNono]

That stills leaves us with the Democratic controlled Congress, and their 18% approval rating, that has funded this "unjust war" every step of the way.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Again, worst Congress I can remember.

[ChumpDumper]

So when can we leave Iraq?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's hilarious how right-wingers say "dubya has to stay in Iraq to prevent a bloodbath".

Since when did jingoistic right-wingers start giving a shit about brown/Arab/Muslim blood, other than when it suits their pro-oil rhetoric?

dubya has already caused a huge (civilian) bloodbath in Iraq, 100s of 1000s of Iraqis slaughtered as a direct result of dubya's "liberation", plus 5M Iraqi refugees, ethnic cleansing, etc, etc. None of which the pro-warriors have any objection to.


Hundreds of thousands? Link please.

And let's not pretend that thousands weren't killed before we went in by Saddam...

Fucking read a history book some time, emo.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm not a traitor and wouldn't sell out my president, but I think my president should be a patriot and sacrifice himself for the good of the country. However, if he doesn't I'm surely am not going to try to force it.

When have we ever sacrificed a president over international affairs? That's an awfully dangerous precedent you're setting.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Everything is so stable in Iraq, that if the US leaves tomorrow, there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war. Plus, as violence diminishes in Iraq, it grows in Afghanistan. Ofcourse, we're too stretched already to have sizeable forces in both places.
So, this is progress?

Newsflash: people in that part of the world have been committing genocide since the establishment of their religion. The only time they have stopped killing each other in the 1400 years of their existence is to fight wars with outsiders and conquer Europe.

When we leave, they will go back to killing each other again. History will repeat itself whether we pull out tomorrow, next month, or 50 years from now.

I'd just as soon see our boys come home and get them out of the line of fire (and quit throwing money down the drain).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"there will be a major genocide along with a country wide civil war."

That's just Repug fear-mongering, the same Repug who demonstrably got gotten all their fabricated "facts" and predictions WRONG about IRAQ.

We are now supposed to believe the "civil-war-when-US-leaves" prediction, as justification and smoke-screen for multi-decade occupation until the oil is stolen.

Hey dumbass, the Sunnis and Shi'ia have been killing each other for the entirety of their religion's existence. 1400 years. So it's not a stretch to say they're going to resume killing each other the moment we leave, it's not propaganda, it's called learning from history.

Damn you are dumb.

[ElNono]

Newsflash: people in that part of the world have been committing genocide since the establishment of their religion. The only time they have stopped killing each other in the 1400 years of their existence is to fight wars with outsiders and conquer Europe.

When we leave, they will go back to killing each other again. History will repeat itself whether we pull out tomorrow, next month, or 50 years from now.

I'd just as soon see our boys come home and get them out of the line of fire (and quit throwing money down the drain).

Completely agree. Please relay the message to PEP over here.

[boutons_]

Aggie, so whether the US stays or goes, the Iraqis are going to slaughter themselves.

Conclusion: we must go, and ASAP, which probably means 2 years to complee, but get started ASAP.

And I see Aggie's solution is where?

USA won't leave Iraq. The oilcos make foreign policy, not the federal government.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Aggie, so whether the US stays or goes, the Iraqis are going to slaughter themselves.

Conclusion: we must go, and ASAP, which probably means 2 years to complee, but get started ASAP.

And I see Aggie's solution is where?

USA won't leave Iraq. The oilcos make foreign policy, not the federal government.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? We need to bring our troops home. Do whatever it takes to do so safely (not the firesale withdrawal that Obama has proposed).

You are talking about tribal feuds and religious feuds. People over there have a long memory. Whether they have to wait two months or 50 years, they'll be waiting for the first chance for payback they can get.

Our leaders at this point are on the hook morally for whatever happens, which sucks, but the right decision is still to leave. The people over there were grateful to get rid of Saddam, but now we've been there as long as we have they are growing tired of us.

Iraq already has a strong leader in its midst - al Sadr. His allegiance with al-Sistani is what is going to bring what level of stability they can have to that country. Yeah, there's going to be some scores settled in the process, but those two are that country's best hope for stability.

Until then, the Iraqis will be more than happy to let us do the majority of the heavy lifting WRT the security in that country. It's ingrained in their culture (Muslim culture in general) to act in such a manner.

And if you really want to get into culture, about the worst thing that could happen for us in that part of the world is have Obama get elected and push Madellaine Albright into the Sec. of State position.

Muslims look down on blacks, and the only thing they look down on blacks more than is women. Disclaimer for the reading comprehension impaired: this is not a scare tactic by a conservative, I'm stating a fact based on the Muslim culture. They view women as property and blacks as slaves.

One of the things that pissed me off most about Bush's handling of the Mideast was to have Colin Powell involved and then come over the top of that by sending Condi Rice over there to try and smooth out the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Probably two of his more boneheaded moves with respect to Middle East foreign policy.

[ElNono]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? We need to bring our troops home. Do whatever it takes to do so safely (not the firesale withdrawal that Obama has proposed).


Just going to comment on this... what difference does it make if Obama wants to get out of there in 16 months or whatever? Just like you said earlier, those nutjobs are gonna be killing each other anyways. What does withdrawing 'safely' entails? 100 years, like McCain said?