Patriotism

[Supergirl]

X-posted on my blog, but I thought I'd see what all of y'all think, too...

In recent Reuters news blurbs, Obama was quoted as saying this about ‘patriotism’:

“In the end, it may be this quality that best describes patriotism in my mind — not just a love of America in the abstract, but a very particular love for, and faith in, one another as Americans.”

McCain, on the other hand, says this:

“(Patriotism) is putting the country first, before party or personal ambition, before anything.“

What about you? How do you define patriotism? Do you consider yourself “patriotic”?

[Ignignokt]

i define it as spooging all over your boobs.

[BradLohaus]

How do you define patriotism?

Having a level of mistrust in a government that corresponds to its size and power.

[DarrinS]

Patriotism is standing in front of an American flag while talking about how you will slash the military budget.


dl32Y7wDVDs

[JoeChalupa]

I'm patriotic and if you don't think so then :flipoff

[DarkReign]

Having a level of mistrust in a government that corresponds to its size and power.


Fucking BAM.

[boutons_]

Why is patriotism (and protein) such an all-encompassing obsession for Americans?

Is big bad red Communism under the bed and trying to take over the country?

Are everyday Americans trying to overthrow the unpatriotic, anti-American kleptocratic plutocracy that runs the country?

US has the biggest, baddest assed military (industrial complex) in the History of the Universe, but Americans are pre-occupied with testing each others' patriotism, as if revolution and subversion lurked daily everywhere.

Serious answers, please. (pretty much excludes as the right-wing dumbfucks here).

[johnsmith]

Why is patriotism (and protein) such an all-encompassing obsession for Americans?

Is big bad red Communism under the bed and trying to take over the country?

Are everyday Americans trying to overthrow the unpatriotic, anti-American kleptocratic plutocracy that runs the country?

US has the biggest, baddest assed military (industrial complex) in the History of the Universe, but Americans are pre-occupied with testing each others' patriotism, as if revolution and subversion lurked daily everywhere.

Serious answers, please. (pretty much excludes as the right-wing dumbfucks here).

How about you shut the fuck up and start your own thread then. Fuck, the thread starter asks a question and then you chime in with that and have the nerve to say "serious answers, please".

Here's my serious answer...........fuck you, God hates you.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why is dubya (and darth cheney) such an all-encompassing obsession for boutons_?

[whottt]

Having a level of mistrust in a government that corresponds to its size and power.


And I would say that's pretty far away from the definition of Patriotism...you have to really just completely pull an entirely new definition out of your ass with no basis in the meaning of the word Patriotism for that to be what you define as Patriotism.


I'm not saying I don't understand your point, I'm not saying you are wrong to do it...but calling that Patriotism, is like saying a taking a bath is taking a dump.

[whottt]

boutons doesn't love this country...and only someone patronizing him or a an asshat would think that he does...get fucking real.


Patriotism means loving your country, and boutons doesn't love this country....by his own admission.

[whottt]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

You do not say I will leave the country, as if you are embarrassed to be a part of it, regardless of who the leader is, you are not embarrassed to be a part of it, you do not burn flags, you do not badmouth it's history with biased venom and bile...you cannot do those things and claim to be Patriotic. If you do those things and think you are being Patriotic, you are wrong.


There are a great many people that think they are Patriots, that aren't...because there aren't very many true Patriots left, on either side of the line.

[whottt]

Patriot:

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Entertainment/ap_pat_tillman_070222_ssv.jpg


Not:

http://www.capveterans.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/obama_s_patriotism.jpg



I'm not oversimplifying things either...




It's really not that confusing.

[clambake]

pat tillman=used patriot. so low they couldn't even get this right.

[PixelPusher]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

You do not say I will leave the country, as if you are embarrassed to be a part of it, regardless of who the leader is, you are not embarrassed to be a part of it, you do not burn flags, you do not badmouth it's history with biased venom and bile...you cannot do those things and claim to be Patriotic. If you do those things and think you are being Patriotic, you are wrong.


There are a great many people that think they are Patriots, that aren't...because there aren't very many true Patriots left, on either side of the line.

not patriots
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/SSPOD/SuperStock_900-128422~Signing-of-the-Declaration-of-Independence-Posters.jpg

...I mean for Christ sakes, you can see the British Union Jack emblem in their colonial flags in the background.

[PixelPusher]

whottt has the definition of patriotism exactly right, btw. "My country, right or wrong."
These guys were patriots.
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/94/91494-004-34C6DDBB.jpg

[RandomGuy]

The internet debate axiom to the Law of Probability states:

As the length of any thread increases the odds of either anal sex or nazis being mentioned approaches one (a statistical certainty).

[Spur-Addict]

Defending one's country can be right at home through legislature. Alot do not consider this as such, but it is by far the most important for this type of country in my opinion.

[whottt]

rofl at whottt pulling the pat tillman card


What is wrong with saying Pay Tillman was a Patriot? Are you saying he wasn't?


And can you think of a better well known recent example of loving one's country and putting it first?


That's the definition of Patriotism...

[whottt]

pat tillman=used patriot. so low they couldn't even get this right.



Doesn't change the fact that he was a Patriot....

[whottt]

whottt has the definition of patriotism exactly right, btw. "My country, right or wrong."
These guys were patriots.
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/94/91494-004-34C6DDBB.jpg


IF your love of your country is conditional upon who is running it, then you don't love your country first.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think that patriotism means blind adherence to whatever policies the existing government of your nation chooses to follow -- particularly if those policies are contrary to the fundamental principles that define your nation. I mean, if I was to take whottt's definition literally, I would be unpatriotic to challenge my own government if, for instance, an Administration took an overt position that all citizens must become druids and never meet with each other except in the presence of governmental agents. Of course, those policies would be fundamentally contrary to the priniciples that the nation was founded upon, but whottt's definition says that if the government could enact those policies, I'd be unpatriotic to challenge them because I should "go down with the country." I think that love of country means love of country and love of country means love of the principles and ideals that define the country.

Thus, with all due respect, I think the definition proposed is a bit too simplistic.

A patriot loves what his country stands for, even if he does not support what his country does in every circumstance. A patriot is willing to defend the things that his country stands for. But a patriot also, I think, fights against things that are contrary to what his country stands for, even if those efforts come from within. While I don't think patriotism necessitates overt skepticism of everything a nation does, I also don't think it's unpatriotic to question policies and efforts that seem to defy historical precedents and founding principles.

Ultimately, I think it's the adherence to those things -- a love and a reverence for the history of his country, the ideals that it stands for, and the principles upon which it was founded and operates -- that define a patriot.

[whottt]

If you are putting hte World ahead of your country, then you aren't a Patriot...because you aren't putting your country first. If you are excercising your right to not sing the National Anthem or put your hand over your heart, for whatever personal belief system you have...then you aren't a Patriot, because you aren't putting your country first. You are putting other things in front of it...


You can still claim to be Patriotic and love your country...but you damn sure aren't the definition of Patriotism. You aren't defined by your love of your country, and therefore you are not truly a Patriot.


And someone who gives his life for his country, dies in it's service and gives up fame and fortune...I just don't see how anyone can be a better example of Patriotism....I'm sorry if it offends you guys, because you aren't as Patriotic as he was(and neither am I)...but you'll get over it. Try not to get your panties in a wad about it...



Like I said...a lot of people think they are Patriots...few actually deserve the name.

[whottt]

I don't think that patriotism means blind adherence to whatever policies the existing government of your nation chooses to follow -- particularly if those policies are contrary to the fundamental principles that define your nation.


I didn't give that as my definition of Patriotism...

Link?





I mean, if I was to take whottt's definition literally, I would be unpatriotic to challenge my own government if, for instance, an Administration took an overt position that all citizens must become druids and never meet with each other except in the presence of governmental agents.

False...I did not say that.



Of course, those policies would be fundamentally contrary to the priniciples that the nation was founded upon, but whottt's definition says that if the government could enact those policies, I'd be unpatriotic to challenge them because I should "go down with the country."

False...I did not say that.

But I still saying dying in service to your country is the ultimate definition of Patriotism..




What a crock of bullshit to say otherwise.




I think that love of country means love of country and love of country means love of the principles and ideals that define the country.

Thus, with all due respect, I think the definition proposed is a bit too simplistic.

A patriot loves what his country stands for, even if he does not support what his country does in every circumstance. A patriot is willing to defend the things that his country stands for. But a patriot also, I think, fights against things that are contrary to what his country stands for, even if those efforts come from within. While I don't think patriotism necessitates overt skepticism of everything a nation does, I also don't think it's unpatriotic to question policies and efforts that seem to defy historical precedents and founding principles.


You are politicizing this...I am not.



Would you have been less offended if I used Alec(I'll leave if I don't like who wins the election) Baldwin or Natalie (Hi Euros, I'm embarrassed to be an American)Maine instead of Obama?


Or what about Michael(America is a stupid country and Americans are stupid people) Moore?

Somehow I doubt it...






Ultimately, I think it's the adherence to those things -- a love and a reverence for the history of his country, the ideals that it stands for, and the principles upon which it was founded and operates -- that define a patriot.


And ultimately...I think Pat Tillman would probably not be a big fan of the Bush admin if he were alive today...so try not to be offended that I actually chose to honor a true Patriot when defining Patriotism.

[FromWayDowntown]

I didn't give that as my definition of Patriotism...

Link?

And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).


False...I did not say that.

See above.


False...I did not say that.

See above.


But I still saying dying in service to your country is the ultimate definition of Patriotism..

You're imagining a dispute between us on this issue. I agree with you completely that Pat Tillman is a patriot.


You are politicizing this...I am not.

I'm not politicizing it. My definition is not dependent upon an affiliation with any political party or any ideology other than one that believes in the principles upon which the country was founded; my definition of patriotism has nothing to do with politics.


Would you have been less offended if I used Alec(I'll leave if I don't like who wins the election) Baldwin or Natalie (Hi Euros, I'm embarrassed to be an American)Maine instead of Obama?

Or what about Michael(America is a stupid country and Americans are stupid people) Moore?

Somehow I doubt it...

I'm not offended. You're making this about specific people -- I'm not.

I just think your definition of patriotism is too simplistic. Patriotism isn't a suicide pact; likewise, one isn't unpatriotic simply because he disagrees with policies enacted by the existing government when those policies are fundamentally at odds with the foundational principles of that nation.



And ultimately...I think Pat Tillman would probably not be a big fan of the Bush admin if he were alive today...so try not to be offended that I actually chose to honor a true Patriot when defining Patriotism.

I absolutely agree with you that Pat Tillman is a fine example of a patriot.

[FromWayDowntown]

IF your love of your country is conditional upon who is running it, then you don't love your country first.

I'd definitely agree with that.

Just a question, though: If Obama wins the election and withdraws troops from Iraq (to propose a hypothetical) will those who oppose that policy choice be unpatriotic?

[whottt]

And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

Right...if you die fighting for your country, you pretty much define Patriotism.


I didn't say you had to die supporting the reigning political parties platform to be a Patriot.


But if you go arouind disrespecting the country and saying you are embarrassed to be a part of it...you don't love your country.


There can be no love if there is no respect...and shame isn't love either.



And sitting on your ass using your constitutional rights isn't Patriotism either...get serious.






You're imagining a dispute between us on this issue. I agree with you completely that Pat Tillman is a patriot.


Cool...




I'm not politicizing it. My definition is not dependent upon an affiliation with any political party or any ideology other than one that believes in the principles upon which the country was founded; my definition of patriotism has nothing to do with politics.


Nor is mine...






I just think your definition of patriotism is too simplistic. Patriotism isn't a suicide pact;

I didn't say it was...





likewise, one isn't unpatriotic simply because he disagrees with policies enacted by the existing government when those policies are fundamentally at odds with the foundational principles of that nation.


If you hate the existing government more than you love your country, you aren't a Patriot. You are governed and ruled by your hate...not your love of country.






I absolutely agree with you that Pat Tillman is a fine example of a patriot.


Thank you...I thought he was a pretty good example myself...

[whottt]

I'd definitely agree with that.

Just a question, though: If Obama wins the election and withdraws troops from Iraq (to propose a hypothetical) will those who oppose that policy choice be unpatriotic?


Depends on how they do it...if they start saying they are ashamed to be Americans and threatening to leave the country...yeah, they will be.


Opposing the war isn't unpatriotic...but the manner in which you choose to do it damn sure can be. Not to mention the timing...not to mention those who are sitting beside you as you are opposing it.



I'm sorry but Michael Moore, Natalie Maine etc. are not Patriots.


As I've always said...my biggest problem with the modern Democrats, is that all they stand for...is opposing Bush...they hate him more than they love America. And they'll tread on the constitution, they country, and everything it stands for in taking him down...and they'll rationalize their decision to at best be no better than he is until the cows come home...generally speaking of course.


Bush didn't have to get re-elected in 04...it's the Democrats fault that he was. Their failure as a party is why he was re-elected. It was a complete and total choke job by the Democrats...in what should have been a slam dunk win.



And BTW, concerning Obama...he's not a Patriot...I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to run for President...because there's no law that says you have to be a Patriot to be President, I'm not even saying he won't do a good job if he wins...I'm just saying, he's not a Patriot.

[Anti.Hero]

Patriotism is all about helping mother Earth, learning multiple languages to impress Europe, understanding other cultures beliefs (in killing you), sticking it to whitey, accepting the next generation of American culture, working harder to help your fellow man, and so on.

It is our DUTY to make it easy for our leaders to lead us.

[Supergirl]

I think that in a true democracy, patriotism has very little to do with whether you support the policies of the current leadership or not.

Under a more authoritarian government, patriotism becomes infused with nationalism, to the point where the two are indistinguishable. Much of what I hear people defining as "patriotism" on this board is actually nationalism - "devotion and loyalty to one's own nation"; patriotism is different.

Patriotism, in a true democracy (we can debate in another thread whether we have one or not), is about trusting that regardless of whether you agree or disagree with individual policy decisions of the current leadership, the government/country is ultimately going to be OK in the end. Things swing to the right, to the left, and back again, but the very system of government itself has enough checks and balances to keep things in balance.

By this definition, I am sometimes a patriot, and some days I am not. It depends on my mood, and how cynical I am feeling.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

You do not say I will leave the country, as if you are embarrassed to be a part of it, regardless of who the leader is, you are not embarrassed to be a part of it, you do not burn flags, you do not badmouth it's history with biased venom and bile...you cannot do those things and claim to be Patriotic. If you do those things and think you are being Patriotic, you are wrong.


There are a great many people that think they are Patriots, that aren't...because there aren't very many true Patriots left, on either side of the line.

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist

[scott]

Anyway, I would define Patriotism as just what is is...loving your country. And when you love your country, like any sort of love, you love it whether it's right, or it's wrong....that means you go down with country, even if it is wrong(whether you agree with what it is doing, or not).

I'll disagree and say that true patriotism is not merely going down with the proverbial ship, but rather doing all you can to prevent the ship from going down to start with, out of that same love for your country. Along the lines of the same analogy, the loyalty is towards the ship, not the captain.

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race? In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

[PixelPusher]

I'll disagree and say that true patriotism is not merely going down with the proverbial ship, but rather doing all you can to prevent the ship from going down to start with, out of that same love for your country. Along the lines of the same analogy, the loyalty is towards the ship, not the captain.

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race? In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?
Why should patriotism be viewed as a virtue in the first place? Is street gang loyalty a virtue?

Patriotism is the just the latest and greatest brand of tribalism practiced by humanity in the nation-state era of history. If it does mean something more nuanced and high-minded (i.e. the 'idea' of America) than mere geographical tribalism to you, FWD, Supergirl, etc. - then I think we need a new term for it other than "patriotism".

[smeagol]

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist

I don't think he said that.

[smeagol]

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race?

No

[whottt]

However, I pose the following question: should loyalty to one's country come before loyalty to the human race?

If your loyalty is to the human race over your country then you aren't a true patriot...at least not until we master interplanetary travel.





In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

No...there are very few things that are always a virtue...depends on the situation.

[whottt]

according to whottt, patriotism= being a good fascist


Link?


Seriously...I hear a lot of stupid things on this forum, but this idea that being critical of your government and trashing your country in the process is patriotism is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard...



I mean Usama Bin Laden bitches about the US Govt too, war for oil, etc...so does just about every wannabe intellectual in every corner of the globe...would you define them as loving this country?


Bitching about this country doesn't make you a patriot.......




And you inferred the same thing from my comments as FWDT...that because I said a Patriot is a willing to go down with his country right or wrong, that I meant they support any and all wars....


That's not what I said...I said a Patriot doesn't leave his country(without a damn good reason), but he also generally doesn't lead it(or support those that do) into asskissing other countries(depending on the ultimate goals of said asskissking).


All those Germans that left Germany for good as Hitler came to power...that saw the writing on the wall before it happened...those weren't Patriots. I don't give a fuck what their views on Nazism were. Were the Nazis? Yeah....they were patriots(the German ones were anyway, the ones that didn't flee, and yes that includes Hitler).



Were the Vichy French? No...Were the French resistance? Definitely.




Back to Supergirl's comments on Nationalism VS Patriotism...I'd say it's more like nearly all Nationalists are Patriots, but not all Patriots are Nationalists.

[SRJ]

In the specific case of the USA, patriotism loses its appeal if a patriot supports ideals which run counter to those expressed in our founding documents.

I'm not trying to be Mr. Superior American, and I'm not saying our patriotism trumps England's, Russia's, China's, fill in the blank; But the United States doesn't have thousands of years of history like many other nations. The population of the American colonies were much more heterogenous than the European powers or China. There was no long-standing common culture here, and with that mingling of blood and lack of a national heritage, libertarianism was born. Limited government, self-reliance, no oppressive institutions, ...these were the principles which united a diverse populace. Today's America bears little resemblance to the America of 1790.

It's hard to feel the same patriotic stirrings Paine and Henry did when King George, now personified as the Internal Revenue Service, steals our wages. It's hard to carry the banner of Benjamin Franklin when we demand free drugs/schools/health care/food/clothing/child care/job training/etc from our elected officials. It's hard to want to take the fight to our enemies, as Washington did, when we are assured by the intelligencia that America is threatened by no one and, what's more, our boots on the ground must fight with one hand bound, so that war be more humane.

We are spineless, we are unprincipled, we are lazy, and to achieve our ends we will use every tactic imaginable. In short, we are a bastardization of America.

[Marcus Bryant]

Patriotism is love of country. Humanism is love of humanity.

[BradLohaus]

And I would say that's pretty far away from the definition of Patriotism...you have to really just completely pull an entirely new definition out of your ass with no basis in the meaning of the word Patriotism for that to be what you define as Patriotism.


I'm not saying I don't understand your point, I'm not saying you are wrong to do it...but calling that Patriotism, is like saying a taking a bath is taking a dump.
Obviously loving your country is patriotism (but you can love your country and hate your government - wasn't that basically the case with the Founding Fathers?) And also, obviously, fighting and dying in defense of your people is the highest form of patriotism.

But most people don't fight and die in wars. So what then? How do you best love and support your country? I say it's by being as critical as possible of the people running it. How else can you best help your country? Having asked that question, I guess one could say that giving to charity and feeding the poor is patriotism.

So I'll amend my definition: Aside from the highest form of patriotism - being willing to die for your people - patriotism is not trusting the government and helping the least among us. Kind of reminds you of somebody famous, doesn't it?

And I consider myself to be very much a nationalist; it's sad to see that term become a bad word, and to see people run away from it. I just see it as meaning sovereignty, but sadly, it's become synonymous with jingoism.

[cant w8 4 2012]

How about you shut the fuck up and start your own thread then. Fuck, the thread starter asks a question and then you chime in with that and have the nerve to say "serious answers, please".

Here's my serious answer...........fuck you, God hates you.

white man:lol

[cant w8 4 2012]

what is patriotism anymore? I'm all bout brotherhood.in this world,god sees no borders

[Spurminator]

In other words, is patriotism always to be viewed as a virtue?

I think that's why we get so many (and such broad) definitions of patriotism, because for whatever reason people are afraid to agree to a meaning that doesn't include them.

There's nothing wrong with not being a patriot.

I'm not a patriot and I'm not going to twist the definition so I can call myself one.