A re-evaluation of the Jesus story?

[peewee's lovechild]

I read this article and it sounds interesting.

Oh, and I'm only posting this article because it's interesting. So, don't get all butt hurt or anything like that.

************************************************** **********************

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/05/africa/06stone.php


Tablet ignites debate on messiah and resurrection

By Ethan Bronner Published: July 5, 2008

JERUSALEM: A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era — in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.

It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.

Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase.

Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.

"Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism," Boyarin said.

Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet's contribution is fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning.

The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the first century AD In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus.

How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes, also will be discussed.

Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in the coming months.

"I couldn't make much out of it when I got it," said David Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. "I didn't realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed. 'You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,' she told me."

Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai.

Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 BC The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century BC

A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone's authenticity.

It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Yardeni and Elitzur dubbed "Gabriel's Revelation," also the title of their article. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence from before Jesus.

When he read "Gabriel's Revelation," he said, he believed he saw what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion.

Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus' day as an important explanation of that era's messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on messianic overtones.

In Knohl's interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone's passages were probably Simon's followers, Knohl contends.

The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet — "In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice" — and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice.

To make his case about the importance of the stone, Knohl focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words "L'shloshet yamin," meaning "in three days." The next word of the line was deemed partially illegible by Yardeni and Elitzur, but Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is "hayeh," or "live" in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era.

Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Knohl said he believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, "In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you."

To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says "Sar hasarin," or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of "a prince of princes," Knohl contends that the stone's writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days.

He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David.

"This should shake our basic view of Christianity," he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. "Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story."

Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed likely that the key illegible word was "hayeh," or "live." Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure.

Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from no later than the first century BC His 25-page paper on the stone will be published in the coming months.

Regarding Knohl's thesis, Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious. "There is one problem," he said. "In crucial places of the text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl's tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing words."

Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University who has just published a book on the son of God, said that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and books, "Gabriel's Revelation" and Knohl's analysis deserved serious attention. "Here we have a real stone with a real text," he said. "This is truly significant."

Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and "Gabriel's Revelation" shows it.

"His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come," Knohl said. "This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel."

[remingtonbo2001]

Interesting piece.

Regardless, the truth will always remain. Jesus is the Messiah. :)

[tlongII]

Interesting piece.

Regardless, the truth will always remain. Jesus is the Messiah. :)

Questionable.

[phyzik]

Question: what Makes Jesus the messiah and not the homeless guy I saw on the street the other day claiming the same thing?

because some book said he was?

also, if I write a book about the homeless guy and someone discovers it hundreds of years later, will they believe my book?

What if humanity is all but wiped out then the survivors find a Harry Potter or Lord of The Rings book 3000 years from now, do you think they will believe it as fact?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?
pete and repeat go to the store. pete comes out. who's left?

[remingtonbo2001]

Question: what Makes Jesus the messiah and not the homeless guy I saw on the street the other day claiming the same thing?

because some book said he was?

also, if I write a book about the homeless guy and someone discovers it hundreds of years later, will they believe my book?

What if humanity is all but wiped out then the survivors find a Harry Potter or Lord of The Rings book 3000 years from now, do you think they will believe it as fact?

You're bringing up hypothetical situations, not to which are faily lame and based soley in your ignorance.

Some find ignorance to be very blissful.

The bible isn't some book. It's a document of humanity's relationship with their creator.

Harry Potter is work of fiction.

Far be it for me to tell you the difference between the truth and fiction.

As you've displayed, you're quite mature enough to figure it out on your own.

[dickface]

tomorrow peewee is going to find some article about a baby fetus shoved into the ass of a dead dog being used as performance art. he'll only post it because he "finds it interesting" so nobody get butthurt over that one either.

[peewee's lovechild]

tomorrow peewee is going to find some article about a baby fetus shoved into the ass of a dead dog being used as performance art. he'll only post it because he "finds it interesting" so nobody get butthurt over that one either.

So, you're saying you got butt hurt?

[peewee's lovechild]

The bible isn't some book. It's a document of humanity's relationship with their creator.

This is debatable.

[dickface]

So, you're saying you got butt hurt?

i'm saying you're incredibly predictable. but don't get butt hurt over it.

[BacktoBasics]

You're bringing up hypothetical situations, not to which are faily lame and based soley in your ignorance.

Some find ignorance to be very blissful.

The bible isn't some book. It's a document of humanity's relationship with their creator.

Harry Potter is work of fiction.

Far be it for me to tell you the difference between the truth and fiction.

As you've displayed, you're quite mature enough to figure it out on your own.I actually find your comments to be lacking even more credibility than his. There isn't one shread of proof that the bibles words are a document of fact. To the contrary quite a few people I'm come into contact with that run in religious circles with religious views see the bibles as a compilation of stories to define right and wrong.

I think the guy makes a great point. Humanity is cleaned out and the remains of a few Potter books are found and now we have the making of the next child god. I find it very applicable and plausible.

Stone writings eh. People definitely never told stories that way so it must be documented proof :rolleyes

[remingtonbo2001]

I think the guy makes a great point. Humanity is cleaned out and the remains of a few Potter books are found and now we have the making of the next child god. I find it very applicable and plausible.

Stone writings eh. People definitely never told stories that way so it must be documented proof :rolleyes

Oh, I suppose certain events in history didn't occur, soley due to the fact that you weren't there to witness them first hand.

The bible is validated through actual geographical places and events recorded throughout history.

We obviously cannot say the same about Harry Potter.


Secondly, a hypothetical proposition was brought forth.

Humanity wasn't wipped out, only to discover the bible.

The bible was recorded throughout time and handed down from generation to generation.

[BacktoBasics]

Oh, I suppose certain events in history didn't occur, soley due to the fact that you weren't there to witness them first hand.

The bible is validated through actual geographical places and events recorded throughout history.

We obviously cannot say the same about Harry Potter.


Secondly, a hypothetical proposition was brought forth.

Humanity wasn't wipped out, only to discover the bible.

The bible was recorded throughout time and handed down from generation to generation.

The oldest known copy of the Bible (complete Bible) in the world is the Codex Sinaiticus, dating from the 3rd or 4th century A.D. The Codex, while not only translating Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into all Greek, documents the dramatic shift of preserving texts in a bound book form rather than the tradition of writing on scrolls. There is speculation this book was written in Egypt.

It is dated 1499 and is known as Codex Gennadius, now in Moscow.

So the oldest one with viable proof is only 1499.

[peewee's lovechild]

Oh, I suppose certain events in history didn't occur, soley due to the fact that you weren't there to witness them first hand.

The bible is validated through actual geographical places and events recorded throughout history.

We obviously cannot say the same about Harry Potter.


Secondly, a hypothetical proposition was brought forth.

Humanity wasn't wipped out, only to discover the bible.

The bible was recorded throughout time and handed down from generation to generation.


When they profiled Israel and the Jews on the History Channel, several prominent Jews said that they refer to the Bible, sans New Testament of course, as a history book.

[peewee's lovechild]

i'm saying you're incredibly predictable. but don't get butt hurt over it.

You responding about getting butt hurt indicates that you're butt hurt.

Jesus frowns on butt sex.

I suggest you sort yourself out before you butt sex yourself out of heaven.

[remingtonbo2001]

So the oldest one with viable proof is only 1499.

Ok?

And...

I believe you missed my point.

The events which occurred in the bible have been validated through other historical sources and evaluations.

[Extra Stout]

77. Who am I(?), I (am?) Gabri’el the …(=angel?)… […]
78. You(?) will save them, …[…]…
79. from before You, the three si[gn]s(?), three …[….]
80. In three days …, I, Gabri’el …[?],
81. the Prince of Princes, …, narrow holes(?) …[…]…
82. to/for … […]… and the …
83. to me(?), out of three - the small one, whom(?) I took, I, Gabri’el.
84. YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of(?)[ Israel …]…[….]
85. Then you will stand …[…]…
86. …\
87. in(?) … eternity(?)/… \
:huh

[atxrocker]

religion thread!

[AZLouis]

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/penn-teller-bible-p1.php

Or better yet, read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion".

[BacktoBasics]

Ok?

And...

I believe you missed my point.

The events which occurred in the bible have been validated through other historical sources and evaluations.
No they haven't. Show me where two or better yet three credible sources co-confirm anything. We have far greater proof of other gods or godlike entities that date backs well beyond 1499. Prove it to me outside of text that is only proven to exist back to 1499. There are thousands of versions of Jack and the Beanstalk but that doesn't mean its real.

So give me some of those historical sources.

[johnsmith]

I have my opinions on this, but that's all they are, my opinions. I learned long ago that you can accomplish more beating your head against a wall then arguing religion.


Having said that, if someone were to prove tomorrow that God doesn't exist and that all religions are basically "wrong", would it hurt or help mankind?

[Extra Stout]

It is dated 1499 and is known as Codex Gennadius, now in Moscow.

So the oldest one with viable proof is only 1499.
:lol Ace textual critic, there.

[JoeChalupa]

Here we go again.... :lmao It is called FAITH!!! Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.


Carry on. :lol

[atxrocker]

Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.




perfect obama slogan

[peewee's lovechild]

How do you say "Yes We Can!" in old time Hebrew?

[JoeChalupa]

perfect obama slogan

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. My faith is rock solid.


Carry on.

[Brutalis]

I think humans are already doing a good job thinking we die and become grass. No surprise regardless.

[Extra Stout]

Hey, look what I found!

1 "Come, let us return to the LORD;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

[peewee's lovechild]

Nice.

[peewee's lovechild]

Stout, doesn't the article say that the tablet has "Simon" as the suffering Messiah that will be killed and revived after three days?

I think what the article is saying is that there already was a "suffering Messiah" that would be revived three days after being put down.

I may not be reading it right, but that's what I got out of it. So, this Simon person came before Jesus did.

Maybe you can explain that to me.

[BacktoBasics]

I once ate some fried chicken. It returned on the third day

[Extra Stout]

Stout, doesn't the article say that the tablet has "Simon" as the suffering Messiah that will be killed and revived after three days?

I think what the article is saying is that there already was a "suffering Messiah" that would be revived three days after being put down.

I may not be reading it right, but that's what I got out of it. So, this Simon person came before Jesus did.

Maybe you can explain that to me.


Translation (Semitic sounds in caps and\or italics)
Column A
(Lines 1-6 are unintelligible)
7. [… ]the sons of Israel …[…]…
8. […]… […]…
9. [… ]the word of YHW[H …]…[…]
10. […]… I\you asked …
11. YHWH, you ask me. Thus said the Lord of Hosts:
12. […]… from my(?) house, Israel, and I will tell the greatness(es?) of Jerusalem.
13. [Thus] said YHWH, the Lord of Israel: Behold, all the nations are
14. … against(?)\to(?) Jerusalem and …,
15. [o]ne, two, three, fourty(?) prophets(?) and the returners(?),
16. [and] the Hasidin(?). My servant, David, asked from before Ephraim(?)
17. [to?] put the sign(?) I ask from you. Because He said, (namely,)
18. [Y]HWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: …
19. sanctity(?)\sanctify(?) Israel! In three days you shall know, that(?)\for(?) He said,
20. (namely,) YHWH the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: The evil broke (down)
21. before justice. Ask me and I will tell you what 22this bad 21plant is,
22. lwbnsd/r/k (=? [To me? in libation?]) you are standing, the messenger\angel. He
23. … (= will ordain you?) to Torah(?). Blessed be the Glory of YHWH the Lord, from
24. his seat. “In a little while”, qyTuT (=a brawl?\ tiny?) it is, “and I will shake the
25. … of? heaven and the earth”. Here is the Glory of YHWH the Lord of
26. Hosts, the Lord of Israel. These are the chariots, seven,
27. [un]to(?) the gate(?) of Jerusalem, and the gates of Judah, and … for the
sake of
28. … His(?) angel, Michael, and to all the others(?) ask\asked
29. …. Thus He said, YHWH the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of
30. Israel: One, two, three, four, five, six,
31. [se]ven, these(?) are(?) His(?) angel …. 'What is it', said the blossom(?)\diadem(?)
32. …[…]… and (the?) … (= leader?/ruler?), the second,
33. … Jerusalem…. three, in\of the greatness(es?) of
34. […]…[…]…
35. […]…, who saw a man … working(?) and […]…
36. that he … […]… from(?) Jerusalem(?)
37. … on(?) … the exile(?) of …,
38. the exile(?) of …, Lord …, and I will see
39. …[…] Jerusalem, He will say, YHWH of
40. Hosts, …
41. […]… that will lift(?) …
42. […]… in all the
43. […]…
44. […]…

Column B
(Lines 45-50 are unintelligible)
51. Your people(?)\with you(?) …[…]
52. … the [me]ssengers(?)\[a]ngels(?)[ …]…
53. on\against His/My people. And …[…]…
54. [… ]three days(?). This is (that) which(?) …[… ]He(?)
55. the Lord(?)\these(?)[ …]…[…]
56. see(?) …[…]
57. closed(?). The blood of the slaughters(?)\sacrifices(?) of Jerusalem. For He said,
YHWH of Hos[ts],
58. the Lord of Israel: For He said, YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of
59. Israel: …
60. […]… me(?) the spirit?\wind of(?) …
61. …[…]…
62. in it(?) …[…]…[…]
63. …[…]…[…]
64. …[…]… loved(?)/… …[…]
65. The three saints of the world\eternity from\of …[…]
66. […]… peace he? said, to\in you we trust(?) …
67. Inform him of the blood of this chariot of them(?) …[…]
68. Many lovers He has, YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …
69. Thus He said, (namely,) YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …:
70. Prophets have I sent to my people, three. And I say
71. that I have seen …[…]…
72. the place for the sake of(?) David the servant of YHWH[ …]…[…]
73. the heaven and the earth. Blessed be …[…]
74. men(?). “Showing mercy unto thousands”, … mercy […].
75. Three shepherds went out to?/of? Israel …[…].
76. If there is a priest, if there are sons of saints …[…]
77. Who am I(?), I (am?) Gabri’el the …(=angel?)… […]
78. You(?) will save them, …[…]…
79. from before You, the three si[gn]s(?), three …[….]
80. In three days …, I, Gabri’el …[?],
81. the Prince of Princes, …, narrow holes(?) …[…]…
82. to/for … […]… and the …
83. to me(?), out of three - the small one, whom(?) I took, I, Gabri’el.
84. YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of(?)[ Israel …]…[….]
85. Then you will stand …[…]…
86. …\
87. in(?) … eternity(?)/… \
\

:huh Seems as though Dr. Knohl has engaged in a bit of speculative hypothesizing.

[atxrocker]

I once ate some fried chicken. It returned on the third day

:lol

[tlongII]

Here we go again.... :lmao It is called FAITH!!! Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.


Carry on. :lol

Cults are "faith-based" too. Just sayin...

[Extra Stout]

I think Imight have a grasp on the scholarly thrust behind Dr. Knohl's speculations. He is trying to undercut Bishop Wright's line of reasoning in The Resurrection of the Son of God.

[peewee's lovechild]

:huh Seems as though Dr. Knohl has engaged in a bit of speculative hypothesizing.

So, there isn't any mention of a "Simon"?

[JoeChalupa]

I once ate some fried chicken. It returned on the third day

That is just because you are a chicken shit.

[JoeChalupa]

Cults are "faith-based" too. Just sayin...

So are some political parties....Just sayin'.... :lol

[Extra Stout]

So, there isn't any mention of a "Simon"?
Apparently not.

It seems Dr. Knohl already had a hypothesis that included some "messiah" named Simon, and was looking for some textual evidence to support it. Along comes this tablet, with an obscure reference to "three days," and a corrupted word that could mean "life" among other things.

Of course, if somebody tried to use a tie so tenuous (to the point of non-existence) to buttress a position defending orthodox Christianity, he'd be laughed out of the academy.

[peewee's lovechild]

Apparently not.

It seems Dr. Knohl already had a hypothesis that included some "messiah" named Simon, and was looking for some textual evidence to support it. Along comes this tablet, with an obscure reference to "three days," and a corrupted word that could mean "life" among other things.

Of course, if somebody tried to use a tie so tenuous (to the point of non-existence) to buttress a position defending orthodox Christianity, he'd be laughed out of the academy.

Well, that's the end of that.

I thought the tablet had the name of Simon on it.

The article is missleading.
It was an interesting read anyway.

[peewee's lovechild]

Where did you get the info on the tablet?

Is there a link to a picture of it?

[Extra Stout]

Where did you get the info on the tablet?

Is there a link to a picture of it?

http://bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Great...the monthly "I just found this interesting but I'm not posting it to argue there is no God...I'm just sayin' it's interesting is all....but I'm prepared to argue for days about it, nonetheless, because I know I'm lobbing a great big religious debate softball out there to be hit, and I'm in the mood to bang heads...but this is just an interesting bit of reading....don't mind me....fvck you all" thread by Peewee.

Is it July already?

[peewee's lovechild]

http://bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp

I was able to click on a couple of links for the text, but there wasn't one for a picture of the tablet.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Oh wait...is it over already........























fvck. :pctoss

[peewee's lovechild]

Great...the monthly "I just found this interesting but I'm not posting it to argue there is no God...I'm just sayin' it's interesting is all....but I'm prepared to argue for days about it, nonetheless, because I know I'm lobbing a great big religious debate softball out there to be hit, and I'm in the mood to bang heads...but this is just an interesting bit of reading....don't mind me....fvck you all" thread by Peewee.

Is it July already?

Where was I arguing about the nonexistence of god?

If anything, it was about Jesus.

You christian warriors are pretty damn sensitive.
God is probably proud of you.

You should folllow Stout's lead and post with reason rather than your pathetic god-lust.

[Jesus]

Where was I arguing about the nonexistence of god?

If anything, it was about Jesus.

You christian warriors are pretty damn sensitive.
God is probably proud of you.

You should folllow Stout's lead and post with reason rather than your pathetic god-lust.

You would be wise to heed your own words my son. I've read all of your posts. :nope

God Bless.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Where was I arguing about the nonexistence of god?

If anything, it was about Jesus.

You christian warriors are pretty damn sensitive.
God is probably proud of you.

You should folllow Stout's lead and post with reason rather than your pathetic god-lust.

Peewee, I didn't actually read the thread. I apologize. I'll correct my previous statement.......



Great...the monthly "I just found this interesting but I'm not posting it to argue there is no Jesus...I'm just sayin' it's interesting is all....but I'm prepared to argue for days about it, nonetheless, because I know I'm lobbing a great big religious debate softball out there to be hit, and I'm in the mood to bang heads...but this is just an interesting bit of reading....don't mind me....fvck you all" thread by Peewee.

Is it July already?


Whew!!! Thanks for the heads up. I hate to falsely accuse you of anything.

[remingtonbo2001]

:lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Whew!!! Thanks for the heads up. I hate to falsely accuse you of anything.

I'm glad you understand it now.

Now, go back to jacking off to the crucifix on your wall.

[BacktoBasics]

Why does Jesus want 10% of my money? Doesn't Jesus want me to be happy and get my bills paid?

[tlongII]

Why does Jesus want 10% of my money? Doesn't Jesus want me to be happy and get my bills paid?

That's the church dude.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm glad you understand it now.

Now, go back to jacking off to the crucifix on your wall.


Ouch. Good one!


Actually, my Adriana Lima crucifix just got here from Victoria's Secret today. Good call. :tu





Funny you mention jacking off because you sure seem to get a hard on everytime you post an article bashing Christianity/religion/God/faith/etc.

[midgetonadonkey]

Peewee masturbates to a darwin fish.

[BacktoBasics]

That's the church dude.
So I should denouce "the church"?

[peewee's lovechild]

Peewee masturbates on a darwin fish.

[peewee's lovechild]

Funny you mention jacking off because you sure seem to get a hard on everytime you post an article bashing Christianity/religion/God/faith/etc.

I get one everytime I think of your mother.

[leemajors]

Ouch. Good one!


Actually, my Adriana Lima crucifix just got here from Victoria's Secret today. Good call. :tu





Funny you mention jacking off because you sure seem to get a hard on everytime you post an article bashing Christianity/religion/God/faith/etc.
he's sticking it to his parent(s) with every article for making him attend Mass for years.

[peewee's lovechild]

he's sticking it to his parent(s) with every article for making him attend Mass for years.

I never attended Mass.

[dickface]

I get one everytime I think of your mother.

OH SHIT!

a mama joke!

DAAAAAMMMMMNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peewee's lovechild]

Stout provided intellect and proved his point, which I fully respect. After all, it was related to the article.

All you other guys just offered "PeeWee is blasting god" responses because of your homo-erotic god lust.

You can't see past the fact that there is an archeological artifact that dates to before jesus that may or may not refute his life. Whether they are right or wrong, it is an interesting article.

Stout pointed out that the tablet doesn't have the name of Simon, so it's a moot point.

[phyzik]

here's a wierd hypothetical one... I read it somewhere but cant remember where...

it goes something like a baby was born but the babies body couldnt survive so doctors managed to save the babies brain and hook it up to the internet. Because the baby has no body (no sight, touch or taste) it has no concept of being "human". It knows everything from being connected to the internet and is also everywhere (at least in the sense of our world)... would the baby, when "grown up", consider itself God?

think about it for a second... its kind of creepy.

Im not argueing with religion or anything, I just like to think about this stuff. Its funny when people get so worked up when someone questions a belief. Not so long ago everyone was sure the earth was flat and that all the stars revolved around the earth, it took someone the courage to question that to advance humanity.

I dont think there is anything wrong with questioning anything. It helps further our understanding of ourselves and of our own personal choice of beliefs.

[dickface]

Kori needs to ban your thread making privileges.

[midgetonadonkey]

I vote for peewee to be put on all-ignore for being such a douche.

[peewee's lovechild]

I vote for peewee to be put on all-ignore for being such a douche.

:tu

+1

[peewee's lovechild]

here's a wierd hypothetical one... I read it somewhere but cant remember where...

it goes something like a baby was born but the babies body couldnt survive so doctors managed to save the babies brain and hook it up to the internet. Because the baby has no body (no sight, touch or taste) it has no concept of being "human". It knows everything from being connected to the internet and is also everywhere (at least in the sense of our world)... would the baby, when "grown up", consider itself God?

think about it for a second... its kind of creepy.

Im not argueing with religion or anything, I just like to think about this stuff. Its funny when people get so worked up when someone questions a belief. Not so long ago everyone was sure the earth was flat and that all the stars revolved around the earth, it took someone the courage to question that to advance humanity.

I dont think there is anything wrong with questioning anything. It helps further our understanding of ourselves and of our own personal choice of beliefs.

They're going to burn you for being a witch.

[Spurminator]

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/penn-teller-bible-p1.php

Or better yet, read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion".


I prefered his follow-ups... "Christians are Stupidheads" and the hilarious DVD "You Might Be a Christian If..."

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

You can't see past the fact that there is an archeological artifact that dates to before jesus that may or may not refute his life. Whether they are right or wrong, it is an interesting article.

Stout pointed out that the tablet doesn't have the name of Simon, so it's a moot point.


Let it go. It's just a rock, dude. Sorry ES spoiled your buzz.

[monosylab1k]

If you see a sign that says "Say No to Crack"


and it reminds you to pull up your pants --



then maybe, could be, it's a possibility that you just may be, might be, just might, may be, a redneck

if you stare reeeeeaaallll hard at a can of orange juice because it says "concentrate"......

[peewee's lovechild]

Let it go. It's just a rock, dude. Sorry ES spoiled your buzz.

Are you retarded?

Did your hermaphodite father club your head when you were an infant?

Did you not read that the article is a moot point because Stout pointed out that "Simon" is nowhere to be found on the tablet?

I never used the article to put an end to christianity.
That was just your dellusional fabrication because I hurt your homo-erotic god feelings.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Are you retarded?

Did your hermaphodite father club your head when you were an infant?

Did you not read that the article is a moot point because Stout pointed out that "Simon" is nowhere to be found on the tablet?

I never used the article to put an end to christianity.
That was just your dellusional fabrication because I hurt your homo-erotic god feelings.


Funny how in the same thread you mention jacking off to the crucifix, homo-eroticism, getting an erection thinking about people's mothers and a hermaphrodite father. Combine this with the fact that you mention having religion 'shoved down your throat' as a child and I think I'm beginning to understand why Christianity pisses you off so much.



I'll pray for you.

[midgetonadonkey]

Peewee has daddy issues.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

daddy needed to give him a little more hugs than what he did.

[ashbeeigh]

Why does Jesus want 10% of my money? Doesn't Jesus want me to be happy and get my bills paid?

Why does everything have to be about money? I've quoted this one before:

2 Corinthians. 9:7-Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

[CuckingFunt]

Why does Jesus want 10% of my money? Doesn't Jesus want me to be happy and get my bills paid?

Your bills? Have you seen the electric bill for Heaven??

[tlongII]

Apparently not.

It seems Dr. Knohl already had a hypothesis that included some "messiah" named Simon, and was looking for some textual evidence to support it. Along comes this tablet, with an obscure reference to "three days," and a corrupted word that could mean "life" among other things.

Of course, if somebody tried to use a tie so tenuous (to the point of non-existence) to buttress a position defending orthodox Christianity, he'd be laughed out of the academy.

The fact that the tablet doesn't contain the name "Simon" is irrelevant. The significance is that the 3 day resurrection principle may have already been an established belief before the time of Jesus.

[midgetonadonkey]

daddy needed to give him a little more hugs than what he did.

I think his daddy gave him way more than just hugs.

[midgetonadonkey]

Peewee was molested.

[ashbeeigh]

Peewee was molested.

You weren't even going to leave tat to everyone's imagination? Lame. You should have left it at the last post.

[leemajors]

The fact that the tablet doesn't contain the name "Simon" is irrelevant. The significance is that the 3 day resurrection principle may have already been an established belief before the time of Jesus.

there is nothing new about the numerological significance of the number three in religion. Christianity, as with most religions, co-opted a lot of stuff to draw people into it.

[Extra Stout]

The fact that the tablet doesn't contain the name "Simon" is irrelevant. The significance is that the 3 day resurrection principle may have already been an established belief before the time of Jesus.
Well, yeah, it's in Hosea 6, in the Old Testament.

Headline: "Skeptics Discover Christian Themes Prefigured in Old Testament"

Next Headline: "Skeptics Think For a Second about What That Means, Drop the Subject, Go Back to Mindless Christian-Bashing."

[Spuradicator]

that piece fails

[tlongII]

Well, yeah, it's in Hosea 6, in the Old Testament.

Headline: "Skeptics Discover Christian Themes Prefigured in Old Testament"

Next Headline: "Skeptics Think For a Second about What That Means, Drop the Subject, Go Back to Mindless Christian-Bashing."

Really? Perhaps you would like to quote them?

[Extra Stout]

Really? Perhaps you would like to quote them?
Quote the 'skeptics?' That was a joke, son.

[tlongII]

Quote the 'skeptics?' That was a joke, son.

No, I wanted you to quote Hosea 6, but never mind since I looked it up anyway.

[BacktoBasics]

Your bills? Have you seen the electric bill for Heaven??God is cursing gas prices as we speak.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Peewee was molested., but not in a gay way.

[Solid D]

:huh Seems as though Dr. Knohl has engaged in a bit of speculative hypothesizing.

I didn't see much conclusive "Simon" stuff there.

Much of the translated words look to be something that could have easily been written during the time of Isaiah or Jeremiah or even Zechariah. These writers & prophets had numerous references and prophecies about the Messiah, Immanuel (God with us), and the events around Christ's (Jesus') death. Zechariah prophesied in his book about 30 pieces of silver (the amount Judas was paid in his betrayal of Jesus) and throwing the silver to the potter (the 30 pieces of silver were used to buy the "potter's field" as told by Matthew).

Isaiah (roughly 750 BC) had numerous prophecies concerning a Messiah. Isaiah's writings were quoted by Jesus when he went to the synagogue in His hometown of Nazareth. He was handed a scroll from Isaiah (61:1-2) and he read:
"The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the blind to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor...". Then, Luke reported in his gospel that, Jesus rolled the scroll back up and gave it to the attendant and told the people in the synagogue ""Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

The Old Testament has numerous collections of writers' prophecies about a Messiah and the events surrounding His death. Even King David, in his Psalm 22, wrote a tremendously accurate account around 1000 BC relating to the events of Jesus on the cross...as it would turn out. The Psalm begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The very words stated by Jesus on the cross that most scholars now see was not so much directed to God as it was to the people around him, pointing them to that Psalm, so that they would see the events described that were being fulfilled. (You should read or re-read Psalm 22 and see what I mean).

There are numerous writings, up to 1000 years and more, about events that are similar to what happened during Jesus life but they were pointing to Jesus. Could this additional stone attested to Gabriel be just more on the same subject? I can't wait to see what else can be deciphered on it!

[Big Empty]

So are there any historical references to jesus outside the bible?

[rascal]

Question: what Makes Jesus the messiah and not the homeless guy I saw on the street the other day claiming the same thing?

because some book said he was?

also, if I write a book about the homeless guy and someone discovers it hundreds of years later, will they believe my book?

What if humanity is all but wiped out then the survivors find a Harry Potter or Lord of The Rings book 3000 years from now, do you think they will believe it as fact?


Says the guy who killed 3 people shooting them in the back as they ran out of breaking into his house.

Jesus rose from the dead and you will have to answer for killing 3 people and being a nonbeliever. Good luck with that.

[Suspect]

So are there any historical references to jesus outside the bible?
Might find your answer in this video starting from the 21:30 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

[baseline bum]

Says the guy who killed 3 people shooting them in the back as they ran out of breaking into his house.

Jesus rose from the dead and you will have to answer for killing 3 people and being a nonbeliever. Good luck with that.

:lol following some bastard child that got put up on the cross at only 33
:lol a religion based on cuckoldry
:lol the resurrection about as believable as Weekend at Bernie's 2
:lol surviving your own death
:lol those three faggots in the ground
:tu phyzik

[The Reckoning]

wasnt in the roman tax records either

[rascal]

:lol following some bastard child that got put up on the cross at only 33
:lol a religion based on cuckoldry
:lol the resurrection about as believable as Weekend at Bernie's 2
:lol surviving your own death
:lol those three faggots in the ground
:tu phyzik

With no resurrection the religion would have died on the cross with Jesus.

Why would his followers even continue with it if Jesus had lied to them had he not risen from the dead? They would have been pissed off to be conned by a liar and fraud.
His followers went into hiding and were ready to abandon the religion and Jesus all together when Jesus went to the cross. They had nothing to gain to continue had he not risen from the dead.

[rascal]

wasnt in the roman tax records either

So you believe records are 100% intact and accurate?
doesn't mean a thing if he is in or not in the records and where is a valid link to your statement that he is not in the records . That is probably not even true.

[The Reckoning]

So you believe records are 100% intact and accurate?
doesn't mean a thing it he is or not and where is a valid link to your statement that he is not in the records . That is probably not even true.

So you believe the Bible is 100% intact and accurate?

that's a "record" isn't it?

[TDMVPDPOY]

u guys still reading this?

how come GOD or whoever didnt send another one to earth after the last one?

[Suspect]

So you believe the Bible is 100% intact and accurate?

that's a "record" isn't it?

:lmao /thread

[rascal]

So you believe the Bible is 100% intact and accurate?

that's a "record" isn't it?

You didn't answer my question.

[Blake]

You didn't answer my question.

it's a ridiculous question

[Avante]

We do have to confess that the Bible is without a doubt the greatest book ever written. Revelations a masterpierce in it's self. Who ever wrote the book has no equal when it comes to making an impact with the written word. An amazing accomplishment, on a level all it's own.

Now there's a mystery, who was the author of the Bible?

The Homer, Tolkien, Eddison, Howard, Burroughs of his day.

[Blake]

We do have to confess that the Bible is without a doubt the greatest book ever written.

Revelations a masterpierce in it's self. Who ever wrote the book has no equal when it comes to making an impact with the written word. An amazing accomplishment, on a level all it's own.

Now there's a mystery, who was the author of the Bible?

The Homer, Tolkien, Eddison, Howard, Burroughs of his day.

You're stupid on so many different levels here.

The main one being that you've already admitted you've never even read the Bible.

[Avante]

You're stupid on so many different levels here.

The main one being that you've already admitted you've never even read the Bible.

I haven't. I'm going with what others who have have told me and the impact the book has made on the world we live in.

Did you ever see Rocky Marciano fight? How about Paul Anderson lift? You'll figure it out.

[Blake]

I haven't. I'm going with what others who have have told me and the impact the book has made on the world we live in.

add another level of stupid to your already impressive resume.


Did you ever see Rocky Marciano fight? How about Paul Anderson lift? You'll figure it out.

I don't form an opinion on those guys because I haven't seen them. You'll never figure it out.

[Avante]

add another level of stupid to your already impressive resume.



I don't form an opinion on those guys because I haven't seen them. You'll never figure it out.

Stupid is thinking unless you stick your hand in the fire it's not hot.
Stupid is thinking unless you've seen the movie...The Godfather...it sucks.
Stupid is thinking unless you saw Jim Brown play he wasn't all that.
Stupid is thinking unless you've read...War and Peace...it's not a huge book.

Are you really that stupid?

[Blake]

Stupid is thinking unless you stick your hand in the fire it's not hot.
Stupid is thinking unless you've seen the movie...The Godfather...it sucks.
Stupid is thinking unless you saw Jim Brown play he wasn't all that.
Stupid is thinking unless you've read...War and Peace...it's not a huge book.

Are you really that stupid?

False analogies like those are stupid.

People like you that have others do their opinion making for them are stupid.

Stupid people like you drag our society down.

[Avante]

False analogies like those are stupid.

People like you that have others do their opinion making for them are stupid.

Stupid people like you drag our society down.

No they're not, you're stupid for thinking unless you experience something you can't know about it. Slavery sucked and I was never a slave. Wouldn't want to be a Jew in Germany in the 1930's how about you? Never climbed Mount Everest bet it's a bitch, what do you think?

I don't need to read the Bible to know it's a powerful read and has made the biggest impact on the world when it comes to books, you disagree?

Little bitchs like you who are always in a constant whine are what drag our society down.

[Blake]

So if it isn't a false analogy, then you are saying that reading a book like the Bible is like climbing Mount Everest for you.

Yeah, we could have guessed that on our own without your admission.

[Avante]

So if it isn't a false analogy, then you are saying that reading a book like the Bible is like climbing Mount Everest for you.

Yeah, we could have guessed that on our own without your admission.

Answer my questions faggot. Why the never ending whine?

[Blake]

Answer my questions faggot.

Neh. I've got no use for your stupid questions.

lol at the faggot blast

[Avante]

Neh. I've got no use for your stupid questions.

lol at the faggot blast

Then don't run your fucking punkass mouth bitch, ok?

[Blake]

Then don't run your fucking punkass mouth bitch, ok?

I've read the Bible so I've got the right to run my mouth, ok?

You haven't read it so I've got the right to call you stupid for running your mouth about it's greatness, ok?

Damn, you're stupid.

[Avante]

I've read the Bible so I've got the right to run my mouth, ok?

You haven't read it so I've got the right to call you stupid for running your mouth about it's greatness, ok?

Damn, you're stupid.

Stupid is thinking your opinion is the only one that matters. I know far more intelligent people than you who think it's the greatest book ever written.

Stupid people never answer questions, too dumb. Blake, you're way too dumb to try and play the bullshit you do, ok? A moron going around calling others stupid, hahaha!!!!!!!!

Here ya go faggot, one of a ton.
WHY THE BIBLE IS THE GREATEST BOOK EVER WRITTEN

[redzero]

It's kind of amusing that Avante's only argument is, "Lots of people I don't even agree with believe that there is a God. Therefore, there's a God." Avante claims that he doesn't believe in the God of the Bible, yet he points to people who do believe as his reason to believe.

Avante has never made a single good point about religion, and he is completely unwilling to think like a reasonable human being.

[Avante]

It's kind of amusing that Avante's only argument is, "Lots of people I don't even agree with believe that there is a God. Therefore, there's a God." Avante claims that he doesn't believe in the God of the Bible, yet he points to people who do believe as his reason to believe.

Avante has never made a single good point about religion, and he is completely unwilling to think like a reasonable human being.

A reasonable human being realizes we can't explain everything and there are things way out of our realm of comphension. Nobody has ever given me a good argument as to why there can't be a God/master designer. No we can't see Him doesn't work. We can't see a lot of things that we know exist.

Why anyone tries to talk somebody out of beliefs that were forged years ago, ????????? I don't care if you/anyone else doesn't believe, why would I? Hell no you can't prove anything, and nobody cares. It's all about....faith....and only fools don't get that.

[Blake]

A reasonable human being realizes we can't explain everything and there are things way out of our realm of comphension. Nobody has ever given me a good argument as to why there can't be a God/master designer. No we can't see Him doesn't work. We can't see a lot of things that we know exist.

Why anyone tries to talk somebody out of beliefs that were forged years ago, ????????? I don't care if you/anyone else doesn't believe, why would I? Hell no you can't prove anything, and nobody cares. It's all about....faith....and only fools don't get that.

Your rants seem to get more stupid with each passing post.

[Avante]

Your rants seem to get more stupid with each passing post.

That coming from a guy who totally ignores everything you ask him? And only comes here to bother people.

[Blake]

That coming from a guy who totally ignores everything you ask him? And only comes here to bother people.

I'd be stupid to answer all of your stupid questions.

[Avante]

I'd be stupid to answer all of your stupid questions.

Look at yourself Blake, everything you post is something negative. You're posting history is nothing but you disrespecting everyone else, why is that? Just answer that one question, why the constant whine?

[redzero]

A reasonable human being realizes we can't explain everything and there are things way out of our realm of comphension. Nobody has ever given me a good argument as to why there can't be a God/master designer. No we can't see Him doesn't work. We can't see a lot of things that we know exist.

Why anyone tries to talk somebody out of beliefs that were forged years ago, ????????? I don't care if you/anyone else doesn't believe, why would I? Hell no you can't prove anything, and nobody cares. It's all about....faith....and only fools don't get that.

You just keep repeating your idiotic nonsense that's been debunked a million times.

You simply cannot think rationally.

[Avante]

You just keep repeating your idiotic nonsense that's been debunked a million times.

You simply cannot think rationally.

So I need to do what?

[Blake]

Look at yourself Blake, everything you post is something negative. You're posting history is nothing but you disrespecting everyone else, why is that? Just answer that one question, why the constant whine?

I'm not whining at all. I'm having a great time posting here.

Now you answer this question:

Why do you care why I post here?

[Avante]

I'm not whining at all. I'm having a great time posting here.

Now you answer this question:

Why do you care why I post here?

Do you have some phobia about answering questions? I notice you never ever answer anything asked you, why?

[Blake]

Do you have some phobia about answering questions? I notice you never ever answer anything asked you, why?

sorry, I'm not going to waste keystrokes on your ridiculously unintelligent questions if there is no entertainment value in it for me.
Lol idiot.

[Avante]

sorry, I'm not going to waste keystrokes on your ridiculously unintelligent questions if there is no entertainment value in it for me.
Lol idiot.

It's never about you, it's always about me and I'm totally entertained watching you evade talking about why you're such a prick.

[Blake]

It's never about you, it's always about me and I'm totally entertained watching you evade talking about why you're such a prick.

liar.

You've made it crystal clear you want to know about me.

Weirdo.

[Avante]

liar.

You've made it crystal clear you want to know about me.

Weirdo.

Only when I look down and see you staring up at me with that goofy ass look of yours as you hump frantically away on my leg. Stay off my leg.

[Blake]

Only when I look down and see you staring up at me with that goofy ass look of yours as you hump frantically away on my leg. Stay off my leg.

you're a sensitive attention whore.

[Avante]

you're a sensitive attention whore.

I;m an attention whore because I respond to your stupidity? Want me to simply ignore the humping? What about that big wet spot?

[clambake]

Want me to simply ignore the humping? What about that big wet spot?

looks like you got it all visually worked out.

[DMC]

If you don't accept that a god exists, you have no problem dismissing the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth.

[Blake]

I;m an attention whore because I respond to your stupidity?

Naw, you're an attention whore for a whole track and field list of other reason.

You're sensitive because all I have to do is say "lol Avante" and you destroy pages and pages of threads with your sensitive tears.



Want me to simply ignore the humping? What about that big wet spot?

you have a pussy?

even though you act like a little princess, I really thought you were an old man.

crazy.

[AaronY]

:lol following some bastard child that got put up on the cross at only 33
:lol a religion based on cuckoldry
:lol the resurrection about as believable as Weekend at Bernie's 2
:lol surviving your own death
:lol those three faggots in the ground
:tu phyzik
ROFL