Attn: Online Poker Players

[MannyIsGod]

If there is anyone here who is still playing on Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet you should immediately withdraw your money from these sites. Last year there was a big scandal with high stakes players there. There were several accounts which were making all the right plays every single time. They were absolutely crushing the games to the extent that it was a statistical impossibility.

After some really strange hands (namely having a bluff called by one of these accounts with T high) some of the high stakes pros reviewed hand histories and DB records and found that these accounts were destroying the games to the point where it had to be cheating of some sort.

It turns out these accounts had access to the hole cards of other players.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=248884

You can read more about it there.

Anyway, this entire time many of those pros and many posters at Two Plus Two have been investigating this and the amount of information they've come up with is staggering. With the help of a few whistle blowers from inside the company have come up with strong ties of fraud, money laundering and this cheating to the founder of the company. The amount of information they've come up with is kinda staggering and very impressive at the same time.

This whole scandal has been a pretty big blow to the legitmacy of online poker so its horrible in that sense, but it is also really awesome to see it being policed by the players so well.

If you have money on those sites I'd remove it ASAP because it honestly looks like their days are numbered. Annie Duke and Phil Helmuth are tied to these 2 sites very closely and I'd imagine they may be tied into the point where they may face a good deal of legal trouble themselves.

[2centsworth]

horrible. poker does bring out the dregs.

[Carnie]

Anyone who plays poker on the computer is a fool.

[MannyIsGod]

Anyone who plays poker on the computer is a fool.

Yes, anyone who likes making free money off idiots online is a fool. :sleep

[mouse]

I knew you would take it the wrong way. What I am saying is why would anyone trust a program someone else created to bet money.

here is an example. lets say I create a program so you can bet on one of 8 horses to win a race. I can put in the program a way where I can see which horse got the least amount of bets and make sure that horse wins at least 60% of the time.

I sit back and let people who have extra cash and like to play on the PC support me the rest of my life.

If the webmaster of a website can see who is on line where they are from and who their ISP is? You don't think the folks at the Poker playing sites know what cards you have? :lmao

[MannyIsGod]

First, Horse racing =/ Poker. Comparing the 2 shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the 2 - especially poker.

Second, I can't 100% vouch for the legitimacy of any site after this. UB and AP were 2 very large poker sites but at the same time the cheating was uncovered which is a reassuring fact. I still feel extremely confident that the top sites in the world are legitimate and that this will lead to further transparency which is a good thing.

I know you haven't read any of of history on how this happend by following the link I posted so I'm probably wasting my time even discussing this with you, but it left a lot of traceable footprints and is the reason why it was uncovered. The people who beat poker at a high level for the most part are very smart, and keep a lot of records.

I may have been the victim of cheating in the years that I've been playing, but I know that even as the games have gotten tougher I have still crushed the stakes I have played for a solid winrate. I've made a good amount of money off of things so even if I have been cheated playing online has been an incredibly profitable experience for me.

[Duncan]

Manny I have a question. What is your win lose ratio?

[MannyIsGod]

What do you mean by win loss ratio?

[scott]

Manny I have a question. What is your win lose ratio?

Wins versus Scott = 0
Loses versus Scott = Too many to count

[mouse]

You make a good point and after all it is your money but think about it. If you really wanted to rip people off wouldn't you let them win just enough to keep them coming back?

And if you was in charge of the site that has the online poker you don't think you have insurance of some sort? What if some professional poker player or some geek in his mothers basement came up with a way to win? Wouldn't you have some sort of plan 'B'?

You really think if you made a huge bet the site is going to let you walk away with their money?

It's hard enough to trust a dealer in Vegas and i can see them 2 feet in front of me I will be Dammed if I am going to trust some computer software used by some organized crime boss with a gambling site located in Nigeria?

To bad the folks in San Antonio have their heads up their ass and we don't have a casino on the river. :smokin

[MannyIsGod]

You make a good point and after all it is your money but think about it. If you really wanted to rip people off wouldn't you let them win just enough to keep them coming back?


The vast majority of online players don't win. The vast majority of poker players in general don't win.


And if you was in charge of the site that has the online poker you don't think you have insurance of some sort? What if some professional poker player or some geek in his mothers basement came up with a way to win? Wouldn't you have some sort of plan 'B'?


You don't understand how poker works. I'm not playing against the poker site. No matter who wins the hand, the house makes the same amount of money from the rake. You are not playing against the poker site, you are playing against other players and the site is charging you for hosting a game.



You really think if you made a huge bet the site is going to let you walk away with their money?


You don't understand who poker players play against. Its not the houses money.



It's hard enough to trust a dealer in Vegas and i can see them 2 feet in front of me I will be Dammed if I am going to trust some computer software used by some organized crime boss with a gambling site located in Nigeria?

To bad the folks in San Antonio have their heads up their ass and we don't have a casino on the river. :smokin

There have been a handful of problems with playing online to this date. There have been farm more alleged scams being run in live games than there have been online. Online poker actually provides a lot of transperancy because everyone is able to keep records of every single hand they play in. I have millions upon millions of hands stored in my databases. I've played in many and a lot that I've observed to watch others and their play. There are thousands of databases like mine out there. Almost every online hand that is played on the major sites is documented in one form or another.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to cheat online because there are obviously ways to do it and people have and will continue to try to exploit the system but there is cheating in almost ANYTHING that involves money. Securities, investments and banking fraud anyone? The point is that it isn't automaticaly bad because its online poker.

[MannyIsGod]

Wins versus Scott = 0
Loses versus Scott = Too many to count

:downspin::lmao

[Duncan]

What do you mean by win loss ratio?

Do you win 2 out of 5 times? Or do you lose 50 dollars and win 20?
Then once a month you win 200.00 or more?
How many times you play or how much do you spend? I wanted to get a ballpark about what is so addictive about it.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you win 2 out of 5 times? Or do you lose 50 dollars and win 20?
Then once time a month you win 200.00 or more?
How many times you play or how much do you spend? I wanted to get a ballpark about what is so addictive about it.

:lol "Whats so addictive about it?"

Um, the fact that I make a lot of money doing it? I dunno, whats so addictive about anyone going to their job? That they get paid right?

[mouse]

You don't understand how poker works. I'm not playing against the poker site. No matter who wins the hand, the house makes the same amount of money from the rake. You are not playing against the poker site, you are playing against other players and the site is charging you for hosting a game.
You don't understand who poker players play against. Its not the houses money.
Where do you think the money goes when you lose? The account at the bank has to belong to someone. Maybe the men who created the software to let you see the other persons cards? You don't think all those people are connected in some way?
And your saying there is no way to fix all that to look legit? Lets say Kori host the Poker site, TimVp and myself play for free to get people like you to join a table. it's you, me, and TimVp our money doesn't count its what we get you to cough up.

[Duncan]

:lol "Whats so addictive about it?"

Um, the fact that I make a lot of money doing it? I dunno, whats so addictive about anyone going to their job? That they get paid right?

I didn't mean addicted like a drug I was wondering why many from my job do it. I wasn't saying you was addicted. After all we know how your Mr. Anti drug addition from the JT topic :)

I was just wondering why my friends at work play every chance they get. During breaks, lunch time, at home etc.. I am sorry if you got offended. :depressed

[misterx91578]

the money goes to the player that wins the hand

[MannyIsGod]

Where do you think the money goes when you lose? The account at the bank has to belong to someone. Maybe the men who created the software to let you see the other persons cards? You don't think all those people are connected in some way?
And your saying there is no way to fix all that to look legit? Lets say Kori host the Poker site, TimVp and myself play for free to get people like you to join a table. it's you, me, and TimVp our money doesn't count its what we get you to cough up.

Then I'd say you and Timvp are doing a good job of giving me Kori's money. I don't lose money Mouse. I don't know how else to explain it.

If you've got 10 dollars and I have 10 dollars and I walk away with 15 how was I scammed?

[Shelly.]

Manny do they let you do screen shots?

[Shelly.]

the money goes to the player that wins the hand


And you have met these players?

[MannyIsGod]

Manny do they let you do screen shots?

Yeah - you can take screen shots all you want. You can record a video if you'd like. But most importantly, you have a text record of every action in a hand that is recorded onto your hard drive. This can then be imported into any of many 3rd part software databases to keep track of your play.

I literally have millions of hands stored on my hard drive. I try to play 100,000 hands each month myself and I have many more that I record just to have stats on my opponents. There are 3rd party sites on the internet that record almost every table at all times online in order to keep stats on players as well. When I say almost every single hand of poker on any major online site is recorded I'm not exaggerating.

It doesn't make any sense for poker sites to jeopardize the huge amounts of money they have coming in to pay a few people to cheat. The amount they would bring in is negligible. I play relatively minor stakes compared to what high stakes pros play and the poker sites are making anywhere from 5k-14k each MONTH just on the pots I WIN. I win maybe about 15-17% of the pots I'm dealt in so you can see that they're making anywhere from 30k-100k each month just on the hands I participate in and I'm only person.

In the situation outlined above it seems as though the founders of a company took advantage of back doors they left in place (i'm simplifying it greatly for expedience) after they sold the software in order to exploit the players there. It really shows poor security on UB/AP part in failing to catch what was going on. The poker site then appears to have covered up what was going on in order to avoid bad press, but at no point does it appear that they actively engaged in cheating the players in order to make more money for the company. Thats a pretty important observation, IMO. It ended up costing them a ton of money because they've had to pay a lot of the players who were cheated back. It's also probably going to spell the end of the company because there is no trust there. The amount of people playing there has dropped severely since this all started, and I really do expect them to go out of business in the near future. But, because of the records that are kept, the people who have appeared to have done this have left a huge paper trail and are probably going to find themselves in deep shit. We'll see.

[Tree hugger]

Hey Manny If I can talk Jimmc50 into sponsoring you at the next Poker tournament in Vegas would you do it?

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

No - I suck at tournament poker and would just end up losing Jim's money.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I literally have millions of hands stored on my hard drive. I try to play 100,000 hands each month myself and I have many more that I record just to have stats on my opponents.


Wow...........3333 hands a day on average? What's you day job?

[MannyIsGod]

Wow...........3333 hands a day on average? What's you day job?

You chose such a bad screen name.

[Tree hugger]

:lol

No - I suck at tournament poker and would just end up losing Jim's money.

I don't get it don't you know how to play? How come some red neck truck driver from Nebraska ends up on the final table? Don't you have any confidence?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

prediction: meltdown.

[nacho]

I think Manny doesn't need that extra pressure of losing someone else's money, add to that a website like ST all wishing him well. Hell I almost lost my buzz just now thinking about having to let so many down.

But at the same the thought of Manny growing a pair and kicking ass in Vegas is a feeling I know Manny must at least think about at one time or another.

[marini martini]

I think Manny doesn't need that extra pressure of losing someone else's money, add to that a website like ST all wishing him well. Hell I almost lost my buzz just now thinking about having to let so many down.

But at the same the thought of Manny growing a pair and kicking ass in Vegas is a feeling I know Manny must at least think about at one time or another.

:lmao

dumb a$$ thread!:toast

[Sherlock Holmes]

That is a lot of hands......................................unless if your a professional poker player or jobless I can't imagine one playing that many hands.

[Sherlock Holmes]

You chose such a bad screen name.

No shit.

[Brutalis]

No offense, but this is old news.

[MannyIsGod]

No offense, but this is old news.

The scandal is. The fact that it may be tied to the founder and that he may be using a front to continue holding onto the company after a supposed public sale isn't. The 2 sites have continued a long time after the initial cheating broke, but now the prevailing opinion is that they are going to go under.

The whole point was to warn anyone here like Jim or Pete about the site possibly going down. I don't know if they or anyone else has money on those sites currently but I know both have participated in online poker previous so I just wanted to give a heads up to them and anyone else who might not read 2p2 but the thread got side tracked.

[MannyIsGod]

That is a lot of hands......................................unless if your a professional poker player or jobless I can't imagine one playing that many hands.

6-8 tables of six max at a time and its far fewer hours than the average American works a week. But yeah, it is a lot of hands. I don't usually get there but its my monthly goal.

[2centsworth]

The scandal is. The fact that it may be tied to the founder and that he may be using a front to continue holding onto the company after a supposed public sale isn't. The 2 sites have continued a long time after the initial cheating broke, but now the prevailing opinion is that they are going to go under.

The whole point was to warn anyone here like Jim or Pete about the site possibly going down. I don't know if they or anyone else has money on those sites currently but I know both have participated in online poker previous so I just wanted to give a heads up to them and anyone else who might not read 2p2 but the thread got side tracked.

My site is Pokerstars. Any word on them?

[MannyIsGod]

Before all this I would have said they were above reproach. Really, they still are (I think Full Tilt is very safe as well but a notch lower than Stars). They are so damn big and do so much volume (largest network in the world) that they really can't afford to jeopardize their earnings in this way. They are also extremely well run and have top notch security with a lot of transparency. I wouldn't keep more money than I had to on any of these sites and I'd never keep any on any payment processors that didn't absolutely have to be there.

I think eventually this will be good for the industry because it will (hopefully) lead to increased transparency which is always a good thing.

[Brutalis]

The scandal is. The fact that it may be tied to the founder and that he may be using a front to continue holding onto the company after a supposed public sale isn't. The 2 sites have continued a long time after the initial cheating broke, but now the prevailing opinion is that they are going to go under.

The whole point was to warn anyone here like Jim or Pete about the site possibly going down. I don't know if they or anyone else has money on those sites currently but I know both have participated in online poker previous so I just wanted to give a heads up to them and anyone else who might not read 2p2 but the thread got side tracked.

I know I just meant as everyone knows those sites have been stooping people for a long time. Half the tables are friends playing with each other betting up then folding the river anyhow.

[MannyIsGod]

I know I just meant as everyone knows those sites have been stooping people for a long time. Half the tables are friends playing with each other betting up then folding the river anyhow.

Sigh, wrong.

[mrose31]

Every site probably has some cheating on it i know people who actually do this where they play with 2 or 3 other friends on a table and know each others cards. When this happens even if you can't tell they are cheating these tables are usually not fun to play because of the betting so you can leave or play on another table at the same time and you can be very patient wait till you get very good hands they will bet in to you and you can bust them for a lot of money then leave. Makes a boring game but often pays off. But some websites have thousands and thousands of players on them I bet the cheating is on less than 1% of the tables. I play for low stakes so I don't think people would be cheating on the tables I play on very often. I don't play that much but I would guess That I still play about 5000 hands a week. If manny is like me he is probaly playing a few tables at the same time.

[Fabbs]

The vast majority of online players don't win. The vast majority of poker players in general don't win.


There have been farm more alleged scams being run in live games than there have been online...
Manny,
What are some of the live game scams to avoid? I'll start a new thread to keep it simple and get more input.

[USA Employee]

Manny thanks for the heads up!

[mexicanjunior]

Before all this I would have said they were above reproach. Really, they still are (I think Full Tilt is very safe as well but a notch lower than Stars). They are so damn big and do so much volume (largest network in the world) that they really can't afford to jeopardize their earnings in this way. They are also extremely well run and have top notch security with a lot of transparency. I wouldn't keep more money than I had to on any of these sites and I'd never keep any on any payment processors that didn't absolutely have to be there.

I think eventually this will be good for the industry because it will (hopefully) lead to increased transparency which is always a good thing.

That's good to hear, I play Pokerstars quite a bit and Full Tilt every so often. I had had worries that cheating was running around on them, especially after seeing some ridiculous play at times or massive sucking out to the point of thinking there were bots at the table.

BTW, I'm the opposite of you, I play well in tournaments but sometimes find myself playing poorly in cash games. I think it might be because the focus required to play tournaments keeps me more in tune to the action, while cash games always leave me wandering between site surfing and checking to see if anyone called the blinds. :p:

[misterx91578]

And you have met these players?

some

[Jimmy]

Someone at this site needs to set up a blackjack,roulette, and poker table in the basement and you need 100.00 to get in the door and at least 100.00 to play.

who here lives on some land and has a large house? :smokin

[Heath Ledger]

Anyone still playing on those two sites since the scandal went down is just a fool, i never have deposited on either of the two, ive been happy on Stars, Full Tilt is a joke. I dont wish to rehash the issue i had with them again, but i will never put a penny back with them. I just got back from Vegas this morning had a good run in some cash games, god i love playing against drunk people :)

[BacktoBasics]

I thought they shut down those companies that allowed you to transfer money from your bank to your online account then to your poker account. I used (fuck I can't remember) to transfer money to UB about a year or year and half ago but haven't played since.

Where do I need to go to get set up again to play?

[MannyIsGod]

Neteller is gone, most of the ewallets that are around don't work with poker sites if you're in the US. I honestly don't know of the best method to deposit. I haven't had to deposit in a long ass time.

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah Neteller is what I had. So I guess its still an issue. Well someone let me know if they have a way to deposit because I wouldn't mind playing again.

[degenerate_gambler]

Yeah Neteller is what I had. So I guess its still an issue. Well someone let me know if they have a way to deposit because I wouldn't mind playing again.


i don't play poker, but one of my offshore outs is 5Dimes where you can still load or re-load via WU...but you only do it w/cash.

[mrose31]

I think the safest and easiest way to deposit is to go to HEB or Walmart and buy those Visa gift cards for 25 50 or 100 that way you don't have to give them account # or set up account with some other paypal type website. Make sure that the gift card says all access on it though some of the others don't work. I know this at least works with PokerStars.

[BacktoBasics]

I think the safest and easiest way to deposit is to go to HEB or Walmart and buy those Visa gift cards for 25 50 or 100 that way you don't have to give them account # or set up account with some other paypal type website. Make sure that the gift card says all access on it though some of the others don't work. I know this at least works with PokerStars.So you enter them in like a CC? I've never heard of doing this before.

[Heath Ledger]

Hey Manny im moving to Vegas after the holidays, to pursue my Poker endeavors.

[MannyIsGod]

Hey Manny im moving to Vegas after the holidays, to pursue my Poker endeavors.

GL

What do you plan on playing?

[Heath Ledger]

Mostly tourneys and grinding in cash games, im much better currently in tourneys however with a little bit more discipline i should do well in cash games, I always seem to do well in cash games in just about each session, my problem comes after ive been there too long and start making bad decisions and things go south fast. But im aware of this and hope to work on it.

I don't have this delusion that im going to go there and turn into a millionaire overnight but i have a decent income with my online business to fall back on if things should not work out or to get me thru times when variance is not going my way.

I have done very well in the lower buy in tourneys but as my bankroll increases i will be stepping up and playing in some bigger events.

[MannyIsGod]

What type of cash levels have you beat online? What type of tourney levels have you beaten online? What type of sample size are we talking about here? Vegas Cash games are soft and the tourneys are even softer, BUT you can't play nearly as many tourneys live so being a live tourney pro is something I'd never think about doing unless you're going to play in as many large buy in events as possible.

[MannyIsGod]

Whats your poker stars screen name btw?

[Heath Ledger]

I will not give my Pstars i.d. but will tell you that i play as a girl with really big tits and it really helps, i am very flirtatious at the table and i get a lot of ego calls as well as charity checks to let me see the river.

As i said i love to play in Tourneys, last year i played in about 64 smaller buy in tourneys(live) anywhere from $40-$150 tourneys and i cashed in 27 of them with a few victories 100-150 players field on average. I came out with a nice little profit over $10k this does not count my online winnings i would have played a lot more live if i handt been 3.5 hours from Vegas, imnot interested in the Indian Casinos here in Cali, I love Vegas so i have just gone there when i had my itch to play live.

I will probably build my way up in cash games as ive mostly played cash games online. Will probably start at 2-5 or 5-10 NLH

I know the bread and butter is made in cash games by most players and not tourneys, in fact most pros are losing players overall with their tourney buy ins compared to their winnings.

Its going to be a real learning experience I will have to look at it as a job and take it more seriously. Again im not fooling myself Im far from playing at a Pro Level but I'm a solid amateur. And if memory serves me correctly its been many years since a named pro has won the World Series, most of the last several winners are average joes with 3 yrs or less experience. No im not saying I think im going to win the main event, im just saying a little bit of skill and some determination can go a long way in Poker mixed with some luck. You know what im talking about there.

Also some plusses are that Vegas has a much cheaper cost of living than here in So/Cal, gas is cheaper, no state income tax, houses/apartments are cheaper, i would have less mileage in commuters per year.

I dont see myself living there forever perhaps a year or two to see what happens.

[MannyIsGod]

Why won't you give out your stars ID? I just wanted to sharkscope you to see what kind of success you've had in tourneys.

What type of cash games do you play online? I'd be wary of walking into a 5-10NL game live unless you're beating at least 1-2 online and 1-2 isn't easy these days. Its not super tough, but yeah.

I dunno - playing live cash games is great for a mid or high stakes grinder but for low stakes you're much better off beating online games because there is no toke, lower rake, rake back, and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more hands.

Should be a fun experience. Good luck.

[DOMINATOR]

i play on bodog.
tip: use one of those credit card gift certificates to put money online. no way i trust those companies with my info.

[brettn]

Manny, what's your pstars ID?

And what limits do you usually play? Sorry if you've been asked before, I'm just curious, you seem to be really knowledgable about hold em. I have a few buddies that finally got me back into poker in about the past month or so. I've just been grinding $5 SNG's trying to build a roll. I'm trying to get to the point where I can consistently play anywhere from $5-$30 MTT's at any given time. Just been playing for kicks, not neccesarily to do anything major. Screenname is the same as on here.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

Man... we need to get a live Spurstalk game going soon.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, what's your pstars ID?

And what limits do you usually play? Sorry if you've been asked before, I'm just curious, you seem to be really knowledgable about hold em. I have a few buddies that finally got me back into poker in about the past month or so. I've just been grinding $5 SNG's trying to build a roll. I'm trying to get to the point where I can consistently play anywhere from $5-$30 MTT's at any given time. Just been playing for kicks, not neccesarily to do anything major. Screenname is the same as on here.

My PS's ID is MannyIsGod :lol

I haven't played there in quite some time though. I do most of my play on Full Tilt (O Rly Ya Rly) and I play anything from 50NL to 200NL. I've taken shots at 400NL and I don't know if I just run bad or what, but I can't beat it yet.

[brettn]

My PS's ID is MannyIsGod :lol

I haven't played there in quite some time though. I do most of my play on Full Tilt (O Rly Ya Rly) and I play anything from 50NL to 200NL. I've taken shots at 400NL and I don't know if I just run bad or what, but I can't beat it yet.

I feel ya. I used to frequent .50/1 and $1/2 games on pstars ahwhile back and anytime I took a shot at $2/4 I couldn't get over the hump so to say. I could never figure it out either. Just gotta keep trying I suppose.

[MannyIsGod]

I feel ya. I used to frequent .50/1 and $1/2 games on pstars ahwhile back and anytime I took a shot at $2/4 I couldn't get over the hump so to say. I could never figure it out either. Just gotta keep trying I suppose.

I was able to hold my own at 2/4 prior to UIGEA but not after. The games are just tougher these days. NL50 is still easy, but its not near teh free money it was 2 years ago.

Still an hourly rate of over 40 an hour is easily attainable even at that level, so the money is still decent.

[brettn]

I was able to hold my own at 2/4 prior to UIGEA but not after. The games are just tougher these days. NL50 is still easy, but its not near teh free money it was 2 years ago.

Still an hourly rate of over 40 an hour is easily attainable even at that level, so the money is still decent.

Yea the UIGEA bill was the main reason I took an extended break from poker. Once alot of the smaller sites started shutting down and it became harder for the fishies to deposit money, I noticed my normal SNG tables becoming alot tougher. I'm kind of interested to see how the level of play is at the $10 and $20 levels if I get my roll high enough to frequent those games again. But yea I completely agree, the overall play of players has noticeably improved since UIEGA. I've still got a few friends who make a good $500-$600/week, so I guess there's hope yet :D

[Fabbs]

Heath,
Very early tourney,
You hold Kd 3d
Just match the blind to stay in preflop.
Flop is

Ad 4d Qs

Guy goes all in. Everyone folds. You are last to act (amoung non folders preflop).
Wanna go for it or no way you're flaming out 5 minutes into the tourney?

[MannyIsGod]

Yea the UIGEA bill was the main reason I took an extended break from poker. Once alot of the smaller sites started shutting down and it became harder for the fishies to deposit money, I noticed my normal SNG tables becoming alot tougher. I'm kind of interested to see how the level of play is at the $10 and $20 levels if I get my roll high enough to frequent those games again. But yea I completely agree, the overall play of players has noticeably improved since UIEGA. I've still got a few friends who make a good $500-$600/week, so I guess there's hope yet :D

Most of the players playing NL100-200 aren't huge fish, but more of the TAGfish variety. They play tight and don't make stupid decisions with bottom pair but they still make plenty of stupid decisions. You can still average 5PTBB/100 at these games which can turn into a good hourly if you multitable well.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Manny - I have a question. Since you play so many hands, how many tables do you play at once? What level? And how tight do you play?

I've played poker for a long time now, and I have an incredibly good record playing 200NL in Casinos - I at least double my money 8/10 times I sit down, no shit. I keep a ledger. I'm also under no illusion that I'm a great player, I just know how to beat 200NL players, which isn't saying much.

However, I have dabbled online and for life of me can't beat the game!? I have played everywhere from 25-50c to 2-4, only playing 1 or 2 tables at a time, and I just can't win consistently. Got any advice? Maybe I need to see the people to make the right calls? Whaddayareckon? I don't get it, because I kill in the casino. Makes no sense to me.

PS My theory is that I make more poor decisions online because I get impatient, whereas when I'm at the casino I'm there until I feel like leaving, so I just take it as it comes, play tighter, trickier, and more sensibly. I really like playing face-to-face but don't really like online very much, maybe it's as simple as that... anyway, I don't play online any more, stick to what I can beat! ;)

[Heath Ledger]

Early in the tourney thats an easy fold man you dont want to gamble on a 30 percent draw that early in the tourney, if you call you are a donkey :)

[Dex]

However, I have dabbled online and for life of me can't beat the game!? I have played everywhere from 25-50c to 2-4, only playing 1 or 2 tables at a time, and I just can't win consistently. Got any advice? Maybe I need to see the people to make the right calls? Whaddayareckon? I don't get it, because I kill in the casino. Makes no sense to me.


For most people, playing in Sit-N-Go tournaments online is better than playing the straight cash games because of the set buy-in and the fact that usually, at least the top 3 seats will cash out.

The first rule of sit-n-go is not to do too much too early. If you've got more than 5 people at the table, play super cautious and only call more than the blinds or just over if you only have really great hole cards. Let the other tournament players pick each other off, and hopefully you'll pick up some decent holes somewhere along the way to build your bank. Once you either start to be a chip leader or once the headcount gets to four or under, then you can start to switch on the aggressive style.

Since I've started adapting this style, I might not win every table, but I make it to the top 5 regularly and usually at least cover my buy in.

Sit&Go is about patience though. You have to be ready to stick out a tournament for an hour or two if you hope to make it to the end.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

For most people, playing in Sit-N-Go tournaments online is better than playing the straight cash games because of the set buy-in and the fact that usually, at least the top 3 seats will cash out.

The first rule of sit-n-go is not to do too much too early. If you've got more than 5 people at the table, play super cautious and only call more than the blinds or just over if you only have really great hole cards. Let the other tournament players pick each other off, and hopefully you'll pick up some decent holes somewhere along the way to build your bank. Once you either start to be a chip leader or once the headcount gets to four or under, then you can start to switch on the aggressive style.

Since I've started adapting this style, I might not win every table, but I make it to the top 5 regularly and usually at least cover my buy in.

Sit&Go is about patience though. You have to be ready to stick out a tournament for an hour or two if you hope to make it to the end.

Yeah, I've played plenty of sit-n-gos, and 180 player tourneys - cashed out in 3/5 of those. I just don't find them very interesting.

I guess my niche is simply 200NL at casinos. That'll do for me. :)

[MannyIsGod]

Ruff - 200NL at a casino is the bottom of the barrel. 200 NL online is not. Its a decently difficult game. At a casino you're simply playing against much poorer players who are going to give you action with extremely weak hands. Online at 200NL you need to have a decent understanding of the game in order to win.

If you're not beating 50 NL online over a good amount of hands then chances are that you're game needs a lot of work. Its also possible its just varience kicking you in the face. I had a losing month in June at the tables and I played about 75k hands that month. I constantly review my play and for the most part (I tilted off here and there but nothing substantial) my plays were correct. Its just to point out that even over such a large number of hands you can have downswrings that are bad.

Without watching you play I really can't say what it is.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh I really doubt its impatience. You're far more likely to get impatient live since you're seeing far fewer hands. Online its much easier to pick your spots since you get far more opportunities.

[Fabbs]

What are you guys doing with suited connectors when the preflop raise is large? (General question with variables needed, i know.)

Heath: I did indeed fold on the above all in after the flop. Did not get to see the turn and river as i was last. Same exact scenario happened twice more in that early round in hands where others called. One hit flush, one did not. So assuming mine would not have, the old 30 percent held true.

Reason i ask is I'm sure you've had tourneys where after a draw like that with early potential to become huge chip leader, you don't get another freakin draw the rest of the tourney.:bang

[BacktoBasics]

Fuck you guys for starting this thread and giving me the itch to play again. Someone find me a way to deposit some money dammit!

[MannyIsGod]

Fuck you guys for starting this thread and giving me the itch to play again. Someone find me a way to deposit some money dammit!

If i go to my full tilt cashier screen they let me use a E-check, some cash transfer shit (i'm guessing WU), and credit cards.

Just do an echeck imo.

[MannyIsGod]

What are you guys doing with suited connectors when the preflop raise is large? (General question with variables needed, i know.)

Heath: I did indeed fold on the above all in after the flop. Did not get to see the turn and river as i was last. Same exact scenario happened twice more in that early round in hands where others called. One hit flush, one did not. So assuming mine would not have, the old 30 percent held true.

Reason i ask is I'm sure you've had tourneys where after a draw like that with early potential to become huge chip leader, you don't get another freakin draw the rest of the tourney.:bang

Doubling up early in a tourney usually means jack shit. All in on a draw like that is horrible. You want to play draws strong when you have fold equity, you don't want to call from behind like that unless you're getting great odds to do so. IE If I have a strong combo draw on a flop (pair + OESD + FD) then I'm likely to try to get it all in because I have a ton of equity in the pot and I also am likely to have a lot of fold equity (the ability to make him to fold stronger hands). Even if we get it all in I'm likely to have enough equity in the pot to make it profitable in the end.

Your question on suited connectors is way too vague.

[BacktoBasics]

If i go to my full tilt cashier screen they let me use a E-check, some cash transfer shit (i'm guessing WU), and credit cards.

Just do an echeck imo.I'll look into it but isn't that specificly whats illegal now?

[MannyIsGod]

I'll look into it but isn't that specificly whats illegal now?

Nothing you do in this regard will get you prosecuted in any way since its not illegal on your end. I can't say whether or not its legal for them to do it, but I honestly don't really care.

*Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer :-P

[BacktoBasics]

Nothing you do in this regard will get you prosecuted in any way since its not illegal on your end. I can't say whether or not its legal for them to do it, but I honestly don't really care.

*Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer :-P
I get it. Its their liability not mine. I spent some time poking around at FT and it seems they're are still some ewallets I can use. Looks like I'll be back in business. I still don't understand how its possible to make this work but fuck it if they'll let me do it then I'm in.

[MannyIsGod]

I get it. Its their liability not mine. I spent some time poking around at FT and it seems they're are still some ewallets I can use. Looks like I'll be back in business. I still don't understand how its possible to make this work but fuck it if they'll let me do it then I'm in.

I'm not sure of any ewallets that allow Americans that are stable - PM what you plan to use before you do and I'll try to let you know how good it is.

Don't use mywebatm - I had bad experiences with them. I heard that prepaid phone card shit is bad too cause of all the fees. I haven't had to deposit in a long ass time but my understanding is that the money transfer through western union works well and echecks work well too.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm not sure of any ewallets that allow Americans that are stable - PM what you plan to use before you do and I'll try to let you know how good it is.

Don't use mywebatm - I had bad experiences with them. I heard that prepaid phone card shit is bad too cause of all the fees. I haven't had to deposit in a long ass time but my understanding is that the money transfer through western union works well and echecks work well too.Yeah I'll sit down when I'm not at work and look at all the options. If its as simple as sending in a Western Union to deposit and get started I'll likely go that route and just have them send me checks back and endure the 10 or so day wait for a withdrawl. I doubt I'll be making regular deposits and withdrawls anyhow since I'm about as amateur as it gets.

[degenerate_gambler]

Yeah I'll sit down when I'm not at work and look at all the options. If its as simple as sending in a Western Union to deposit and get started I'll likely go that route and just have them send me checks back and endure the 10 or so day wait for a withdrawl. I doubt I'll be making regular deposits and withdrawls anyhow since I'm about as amateur as it gets.

best thing to do is once you've found where you want to play, call and talk to a cs rep about opening and loading an acct.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh yeah - if you don't have an account there make sure you look into rakeback. If you DO have an account I think they are allowing old accounts to get rakeback now but I'm not sure. Its free money.

[BacktoBasics]

I imagine I'll just go with FT since thats what you guys are recommending.

[MannyIsGod]

Poker Stars is good too.

[brettn]

Depends on what you're looking to play and which site you prefer. I haven't played on FT inahwhile, but from what I've heard, Pokerstars has the best selection and varietiy of tournaments available. If you're looking to play tournies, I'd go that route.

[Fabbs]

Freebies to join these sites, like where they claim they'll give you $600 to start. I did not read the fine print. Is this true, or too good to be true.

I'm guessing the $600 is spread out, some catch like *"for each $3000 you spend at our site, we add 50 dollars with a max of 600".

What are the best new joiner benefits?

[BacktoBasics]

Depends on what you're looking to play and which site you prefer. I haven't played on FT inahwhile, but from what I've heard, Pokerstars has the best selection and varietiy of tournaments available. If you're looking to play tournies, I'd go that route.I'm predominantly looking to kill a few hours each evening playing cheap tables. This isn't gonna be a money maker or anything like that. Just want something to do during the boring summer weekdays. I might play a tourney once every few months but it'll hardly be a regular thing.

[brettn]

I'm predominantly looking to kill a few hours each evening playing cheap tables. This isn't gonna be a money maker or anything like that. Just want something to do during the boring summer weekdays. I might play a tourney once every few months but it'll hardly be a regular thing.

You could probably go with either FT or Pstars then. I'm sure there's not that big of a difference in skill level between the sites, especially at the cheap tables. You should probably just go with whichever site you feel more comftorable on.

[Dex]

I play at Bodog, and haven't ever tried much more than the free games at PStars.

Anybody whos tried a few have any suggestions or comparisons with Bodog and the others?

[Fabbs]

ok Manny Heath etc,
Tourney, about 60 people.
10 way chop is the custom.
25 entry, chop is usually around 350.

Opening freaking hand!
Draw:
Him (next to Big Blind) Kd 7c
Me As 10s

he opens with the BB, by the time it comes to me (6th position) yeah I also meet the blind but do not raise.

Flop:
Ks 9S 7S
So he has two pair, i have the nutt flush.

He opens betting with 1000, one other person goes, I raise to 1500. He matches, middle guy folds. Head to head.

Turn:
7h so the Bitty hits his greasy boat and bets 1000.
Licking my chops, I, full well knowing a pair is on the board and a 5% greasy boat is possible, go all in.

I'm done. 1st hand.
Reaction?

I say given the chance I'll make that exact same play and his greasy 5% hitting the boat can blow me. But I'm here to learn.:bang

[MannyIsGod]

ok Manny Heath etc,
Tourney, about 60 people.
10 way chop is the custom.
25 entry, chop is usually around 350.

Opening freaking hand!
Draw:
Him (next to Big Blind) Kd 7c
Me As 10s

he opens with the BB, by the time it comes to me (6th position) yeah I also meet the blind but do not raise.

Flop:
Ks 9S 7S
So he has two pair, i have the nutt flush.

He opens betting with 1000, one other person goes, I raise to 1500. He matches, middle guy folds. Head to head.

Turn:
7h so the Bitty hits his greasy boat and bets 1000.
Licking my chops, I, full well knowing a pair is on the board and a 5% greasy boat is possible, go all in.

I'm done. 1st hand.
Reaction?

I say given the chance I'll make that exact same play and his greasy 5% hitting the boat can blow me. But I'm here to learn.:bang

Calling PF with a hand like that is bad. Raise or fold. ATs does not play well with a bunch of limpers. You hit the nuts on the flop but you won't usually do that and you want to be able to win a hand if you miss with a cbet.

Raise more on the flop. If you can, just get it all in now. The last thing you want is a fourth spade to come on the turn and ruin all your action. If he's calling that raise he's calling a bigger one.

Everything after that is a no brainer.

And WTF @ a 10 way chop. Thats the gayest thing I've ever heard of in my life.

[Kori Ellis]

And WTF @ a 10 way chop. Thats the gayest thing I've ever heard of in my life.

:lol

No kidding. I refuse to chop even when I'm down like 10:1 two-handed.

[Fabbs]

Calling PF with a hand like that is bad. Raise or fold. ATs does not play well with a bunch of limpers. You hit the nuts on the flop but you won't usually do that and you want to be able to win a hand if you miss with a cbet.

Raise more on the flop. If you can, just get it all in now. The last thing you want is a fourth spade to come on the turn and ruin all your action. If he's calling that raise he's calling a bigger one.

Everything after that is a no brainer.

And WTF @ a 10 way chop. Thats the gayest thing I've ever heard of in my life. yeah i see what you mean Manny, had i have raised perhaps he would have vanished his K7 preflop. But Manny, Kori and anyone else, I've had this established problem of winning a lot of pots per tourney, but usually not big ones thus i flame out in the end. My style usually is to "take it down" before the Bingo Bettys can hit their 20% or less bullschtick greasy draws. Hence today i thought finally I'm gonna start the tourney with some chips. Solution?
Hmmn the website calculater says i was *only* an 82.5%-17.5% favorite after the flop. I thought i was 95% thus i had no fear of his two pair and in fact wanted the turn to produce another spade so i would get more action. Fark!!! I have much to learn.

He was still a greasy leprochaun at 17.5%.

yeah, they customarily chop 10 ways at this joint. It is anyones perogative to say "play on" tho. I'd love to see you and Kori at the final table telling them no way, no chop. :rollin

Then in tourney 2 today i have AA preflop. Lower stack but not desperado goes in for 3K (blinds are 300/600 at this point.) I am second to act with only one more behind me. I have about 5.5K in chips. So i simply match his 3K, thinking I don't care if final guy does want to go all in, all the more for me as I'll take on 2 others with AA. 3rd guy goes the 3K bet, which puts him all in at about 2,700. Except that he is going with a flappin K3 offsuit. Bingo bitty hits a 3 on the flop and another on the turn to roast my AA with 333. I did take the sidepot so broke even.

I suppose you two will tell me i should have gone All In to discourage K3 from going at all. I dunno, if dumbass went with all of his chips on K3 offsuit I think he may well have gone All In irregardless of my raising. How the (*&^ do you overcome Bingo Bettys like that? He had about 5 hands like this. I honestly felt he had some kind of glasses or something, like we talked about in the other thread "live game cheating". Sam Bingo Asswipe finally got me out in 4th place on another 3 way whereupon my A/10 beat a 9/9 but lost to his A/7 on a turn 7 suckout. (A7Q3A board)

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Fabbs, with the AA you should have re-raised all-in pre-flop. Pocket pairs play best against fewer players, and if someone wants to call your all-in with the best hand make them pay for it.

As for being outdrawn by shitty cards, meh, it happens. Play right, not for results.


Ruff - 200NL at a casino is the bottom of the barrel. 200 NL online is not. Its a decently difficult game. At a casino you're simply playing against much poorer players who are going to give you action with extremely weak hands. Online at 200NL you need to have a decent understanding of the game in order to win.

If you're not beating 50 NL online over a good amount of hands then chances are that you're game needs a lot of work. Its also possible its just varience kicking you in the face. I had a losing month in June at the tables and I played about 75k hands that month. I constantly review my play and for the most part (I tilted off here and there but nothing substantial) my plays were correct. Its just to point out that even over such a large number of hands you can have downswrings that are bad.

Without watching you play I really can't say what it is.

Thanks Manny, that actually helps a lot. I think I've been playing far too loose at online 200NL and trying to steal too much. I haven't played much 50NL online because I get frustrated by all the calling stations who go to the river with shit and outdraw you - at that level, a lot of people call anything to significant raises when they should be folding. It would be fine if only one person was doing it, but when you get 3-4 who shouldn't be calling a raise (which happens a lot), and one of them outdraws you, it becomes frustrating.

I don't really enjoy online poker anyway, so I'll stick to live games. Yes, 200NL is the bottom of the barrel, but it's such a fun, easy beat that I enjoy it. Some time soon I'm going to give 500NL a go, although I expect it to be a lot harder.

[scott]

The very simple fact there are text book answers to all of these situations is proof that poker has gone done the crapper. Poker has been significantly changed from a game of psychology to a game of rules and the robots that follow them.

[MannyIsGod]

The very simple fact there are text book answers to all of these situations is proof that poker has gone done the crapper. Poker has been significantly changed from a game of psychology to a game of rules and the robots that follow them.

This is simply not true.

[brettn]

The very simple fact there are text book answers to all of these situations is proof that poker has gone done the crapper. Poker has been significantly changed from a game of psychology to a game of rules and the robots that follow them.

Why, hello ignorant poster!

[Heath Ledger]

10 way chops are not uncommon in vegas in the smaller buy in tourneys 40-60$ 100-150 players, usually the top 1 or 2 chip leaders will get a little juice but it does happen pretty often espeically where i play a lot (sahara)

Im currently looking for a house to move to in Vegas we very well may move before xmas like we had originally planned. You can find some nice new houses to rent there for $1200 -1400 here you can get a 2 bedroom apartment for taht much if your lucky (So/Cal)

[RGMCSE]

Anybody still play games online? I haven't been to LA or Vegas since last Feb and I'm getting an itch. My games are NL Hold'em poker and roulette. Im thinking about making a quick trip to LA but I want something to play on the weekends too.

[InRareForm]

Anybody still play games online? I haven't been to LA or Vegas since last Feb and I'm getting an itch. My games are NL Hold'em poker and roulette. Im thinking about making a quick trip to LA but I want something to play on the weekends too.

I play occasionally on bovada and blackchippoker.


Los Angeles poker is expensive for the lower limits, the drop is at least $5/$6. It's fine if you want to play for a weekend, as there is a lot of gamble gamble players (especially at Commerce casino).

Can't find roullete in LA. You can in certain indian casino's but it's the automated ones. Live dealer they use cards lol.

[RGMCSE]

I play occasionally on bovada and blackchippoker.


Los Angeles poker is expensive for the lower limits, the drop is at least $5/$6. It's fine if you want to play for a weekend, as there is a lot of gamble gamble players (especially at Commerce casino).

Can't find roullete in LA. You can in certain indian casino's but it's the automated ones. Live dealer they use cards lol.

I meant LA as in Louisiana tbh. I actually do pretty well on the Electronic Roulette tables. I get more in a groove and its cheaper. The live tables don't allow you to make side bets without having to play the min on the main board. Coushatta is inexpensive and a fairly nice casino. Lebarge is expensive and tight. The electronic roulette table is over crowded and the speed is too fast. I want to play online poker before getting into a live tourney first as its been a while. It's too bad I never got online while it was hot. Now I wish I knew which online poker sites are legit for US players. How is bovada?

[InRareForm]

Bovada is fine... but every player is anonymous. You have no idea who you are playing against. If you are okay with that... it's a cool site to play at.

I would check out BlackChipPoker. They have some cool tournaments. It is nowhere near the capacity of players at bovada, but there are lots of US players on it (since they allow US players to play)

[RGMCSE]

Bovada is fine... but every player is anonymous. You have no idea who you are playing against. If you are okay with that... it's a cool site to play at.

I would check out BlackChipPoker. They have some cool tournaments. It is nowhere near the capacity of players at bovada, but there are lots of US players on it (since they allow US players to play)

Im gonna check them both out actually. Thanks for the info!!!

[Big Empty]

With fan duel & draft kings booming, are there any real money online poker sites that use paypal?

[cantthinkofanything]

With fan duel & draft kings booming, are there any real money online poker sites that use paypal?

It doesn't seem so. This is from pokersites.com http://www.pokersites.com/deposit/paypal

Why isn't PayPal an option for me?
Operating in the U.S.A the legal situation between the US government and online poker became murkier, PayPal decided to cease doing business with all gambling operators. As a result, no poker rooms operating in the U.S. can legally conduct transactions with PayPal.
How can I deposit then?
While PayPal won't process gambling transactions, you can still use many reliable and trusted online payment processors. Some sites still accept US credit cards (http://www.pokersites.com/deposit/credit-cards), particularly prepaid versions of these cards, and bank wires (http://www.pokersites.com/deposit/wire-transfer). You can also use an eCheck (http://www.pokersites.com/deposit/echecks) as well at some sites!