Allstar Reserve List

[SequSpur]

Here is the list of the top players that might be selected to the Allstar game. The ones in bold are my picks. Sorry, no tortilla Manu.

Ray Allen, Seattle (24.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.1 apg)
Mike Bibby, Sacramento (17.5 ppg, 6.4 apg)
Carlos Boozer, Utah (18.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg)
Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers (20.0 ppg, 9.6 rpg)
Pau Gasol, Memphis (18.9 ppg, 8.2 rpg)
Emmanuel Ginobili, San Antonio (15.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg)
Rashard Lewis, Seattle (20.6 ppg, 2.5 3pg)
Shawn Marion, Phoenix (19.4 ppg, 10.9 rpg)
Brad Miller, Sacramento (15.2 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 3.7 apg)
Tony Parker, San Antonio (15.6 ppg, 6.1 apg)
Steve Nash, Phoenix (15.5 ppg, 11.1 apg)
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas (26.6 ppg, 9.9 rpg)
Predrag Stojakovic, Sacramento (20.3 ppg, 2.6 3pg)
Amare Stoudemire, Phoneix (25.9 ppg, 8.5 rpg)
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah (14.2 ppg, 3.9 bpg, 1.4 spg)

[Kori Ellis]

Who made this list?

[picnroll]

Bibby over Nash. Not a chance.

[SequSpur]

Make your picks, doesn't look like a lock, does it? I went ahead and picked 9 of them, just to cover injuries. Oh, and by the way, for those keeping score, Vince Carter is starting for the East. Thanks picnroll, I didn't mean to pick the Bibby over the Nash.

[SequSpur]

Alot of players are averaging double doubles or close to it. Manu is not even close. It would have to be pure ESPN top 10 highlight stats to get him in. Parker is out for sure.

[Kori Ellis]

I think Allen, Nash, Stoudemire and Nowitzki will be in for sure.

The other three will be difficult decisions.

[td4mvp21]

gino should make it. only all stars get 48 points in one game IMO

[Kori Ellis]

My picks:
Allen, Nash, Stoudemire, Nowitzki, Lewis, Webber and Manu.

My alternates:
Marion, Parker.

[Brodels]

I think your list is very good. It's hard to deny Rashard with the season he had on a great team and same with Nash, Allen, and Marion.

The only pick I might disagree with would be Peja. I think that Miller and maybe even Manu and Boozer might have a good case. It's a tough call.

[Brodels]

Good point about Webber, Kori. Take Sequ's list and swap Peja with Webber and I think you've got a pretty good team of all stars.

I do hope Manu makes it, but I think he's quite borderline at this point.

[Kori Ellis]

The reason I pick Manu over Marion is because I don't think the Suns will get three All-Stars and the Spurs only get one.

[SequSpur]

Kori, It was off of ESPN.

Vote Here:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1164

[ShoogarBear]

gino should make it. only all stars get 48 points in one game IMO

All right, I was waiting for the day when Damon Stoudamire would make an All-Star game.

[Brodels]

All right, I was waiting for the day when Damon Stoudamire would make an All-Star game.

True. If scoring 48 points is the criteria, both Damon and Jamal Crawford are sure all stars.

[14dave]

For me : Parker, Nash, Nowitski, Stoudemire, Allen, Ginobili and Miller!
I know It's impossible to see 6 guard in allstar game! Bu Ireally want to see Tony and Manu together with Tim in this king of game

[ShoogarBear]

The reason I pick Manu over Marion is because I don't think the Suns will get three All-Stars and the Spurs only get one.

This is the crux. It's tough to give them three players if the best team in the league only has one. On the other hand, truthfully, Nash, Amare, and Marion are all clearly having All-Star years, while only Duncan clearly is for the Spurs.

Another thing, why does everyone pick Amare ahead of Marion? The only thing Amare does better is dunk, and that's only if Nash is in the game.

[dougp]

Gino is still sitting at #7 right now after you submit your vote, more than 1% over the person below him (don't remember who, sry!)

[SequSpur]

Marion is averaging a double double. That's hall of fame material, dude is going to the allstar game.

[milkyway21]

Here is the list of the top players that might be selected to the Allstar game. The ones in bold are my picks. Sorry, no tortilla Manu.

Ray Allen, Seattle (24.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.1 apg)
Mike Bibby, Sacramento (17.5 ppg, 6.4 apg)
Carlos Boozer, Utah (18.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg)
Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers (20.0 ppg, 9.6 rpg)
Pau Gasol, Memphis (18.9 ppg, 8.2 rpg)
Emmanuel Ginobili, San Antonio (15.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg)
Rashard Lewis, Seattle (20.6 ppg, 2.5 3pg)
Shawn Marion, Phoenix (19.4 ppg, 10.9 rpg)
Brad Miller, Sacramento (15.2 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 3.7 apg)
Tony Parker, San Antonio (15.6 ppg, 6.1 apg)
Steve Nash, Phoenix (15.5 ppg, 11.1 apg)
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas (26.6 ppg, 9.9 rpg)
Predrag Stojakovic, Sacramento (20.3 ppg, 2.6 3pg)
Amare Stoudemire, Phoneix (25.9 ppg, 8.5 rpg)
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah (14.2 ppg, 3.9 bpg, 1.4 spg)what? 3 players from Phoenix Suns? :eyebrows

Sorry, but it can NEVER happen. It was debated last yr when Minny topped the WC before the ASG. Some were suggesting to invite KG, Cassell, & Spree. But, they decided against it. :nope

BTW, the Spurs is the best team in the NBA today, along with best record in the WC and over-all. THEY SHLD. invite 2. If not, I would not be surprised, afterall the Spurs players(TP/Manu),are ALWAYS been underrated.

[SequSpur]

If any other Spur gets in, it will be Manu. Phoenix is getting 3 players in. That's a done deal.

Amare averaging 25 +, Nash is a MVP candidate, and Marion has a double double. Sorry, no spur not named Duncan is close to that.

I would love for all the Spurs to make the allstar team, but its individuality and imo, none of the spurs besides duncan ranks in the top ten statistically.

Get real and take off the blindfold.

[usckk]

However, both Marion and Stoudemire wouldn't be nearly as good without Nash.

[ALVAREZ6]

Sequ , you're full of shit.

[Solid D]

For what it's worth, TNT analysts Magic Johnson, Kenny Smith and Chas. Barkley all had Manu Ginobili making the Western Conf. All-Star Reserves.

[SequSpur]

What are your picks Alvarez?

[ALVAREZ6]

The All-Star game is a game of exciting plays that are typical TOP 10 PLAYS on ESPN!

Or is it about the numbers?

[milkyway21]

If any other Spur gets in, it will be Manu. Phoenix is getting 3 players in. That's a done deal.....if you insist :rolleyes

But, in what year did that happen that there were 3 players invited from 1 team to the ASG? :angel

As what the NBA debated last yr. they cannot allow it.

[picnroll]

Manu already butt whipped the all-stars in the Olympics.

[SequSpur]

What rule disallows 3 players from one team? Look at their statistics. They are one game back from the Spurs. In any other year, their record would probably be 5 games better than the rest of the league. Its pretty simple, they are all in.

[SequSpur]

Manu already butt whipped the all-stars in the Olympics.


Thats very true. Gold medals don't make allstars in the NBA.

[milkyway21]

Amare averaging 25 +, Nash is a MVP candidate, and Marion has a double double. Sorry, no spur not named Duncan is close to that.

Get real and take off the blindfold.
...reality is:

if Amare & Marion will play in the ASG w/o Duncan against ShaQ/LeBron/AI, I DON'T THINK THE WEST WILL WIN THIS YEAR. SORRY, TOO :lol

..& I will be cheering for AI and the East to win, too :lol

[picnroll]

Marketing makes all-stars and that's why Manu has a good shot. By play he's a contender and by play he's become one of the most exciting players in the league who opens up a whole new market, Latin America. I expect to see him make it.

[SequSpur]

Here was last year's allstars:

*Kobe Bryant (L.A. Lakers) G 6-6 220 6
*Tim Duncan (San Antonio) F 7-0 260 6
*Steve Francis (Houston) G 6-3 200 3
*Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) F 6-11 240 7
*Yao Ming (Houston) C 7-6 310 2
Ray Allen (Seattle) G 6-5 205 4
Sam Cassell (Minnesota)** G 6-3 185 1
Andrei Kirilenko (Utah)** F 6-9 225 1
Brad Miller (Sacramento) C 7-0 261 2
Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) F/C 7-0 245 3
Shaquille O’Neal (L.A. Lakers) C 7-1 340 11
Peja Stojakovic (Sacramento) F 6-10 229 3

[milkyway21]

What rule disallows 3 players from one team? Look at their statistics. They are one game back from the Spurs. In any other year, their record would probably be 5 games better than the rest of the league. Its pretty simple, they are all in....i just want to know the year WHEN that happened-allowing 3 players to the ASG? :rolleyes

if your answer is:NEVER happened before;

then, just pray your 3 picks will make it this year. Who knows, the inviting committee might be reading this forum. :lol

[SequSpur]

I have no idea, however, Phoenix is having one of the best years ever in the NBA, including the Spurs.

They have no bench, their starters do it all. Dude, I don't care if none of them make it, but H O W is it possible for them not to go???????????????

If any player goes before them, then the selections aren't legit. Objectively, all three of those dudes belong in the allstar game.

[milkyway21]

Here was last year's allstars:

*Kobe Bryant (L.A. Lakers) G 6-6 220 6
*Tim Duncan (San Antonio) F 7-0 260 6
*Steve Francis (Houston) G 6-3 200 3
*Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) F 6-11 240 7
*Yao Ming (Houston) C 7-6 310 2
Ray Allen (Seattle) G 6-5 205 4
Sam Cassell (Minnesota)** G 6-3 185 1
Andrei Kirilenko (Utah)** F 6-9 225 1
Brad Miller (Sacramento) C 7-0 261 2
Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) F/C 7-0 245 3
Shaquille O’Neal (L.A. Lakers) C 7-1 340 11
Peja Stojakovic (Sacramento) F 6-10 229 3
:rolleyes ...i didn't see 3(THREE) players from the same team

[picnroll]

Kareem, Magic, Worthy

[ALVAREZ6]

This is BS, Manu is an All-Star whether the coaches select him or not.

Gold medal olmypians not in the ASG...? Sounds dumb to me.

[milkyway21]

[QUOTE=SequSpur]
They have no bench, their starters do it all. /QUOTE]

NO. :nope

Steve Nash make it ALL happen. That's why they are winning those games. That's why Amare is having the best season of his career.Marion, too. And the reason Nash an early MVP favorite. Amare & Marion played last season together, they didn't win much.

Remember, when Nash got injured? Remember those losing streak? :rolleyes

Nash & Amare are just my picks. Nash for being the top pt. guard this season. Amare as a solid backup for Yao(if Miller can't make it).

[SequSpur]

Sure Milkyway, whatever you say, thats your mo, fine.

Marion is out, we hear ya.

[Mr. Body]

Shawn Marion is at about 20 ppg and 10 rpg.

He's a great player and DOES deserve to be an all-star.

HOWEVER, his team scores at a much higher clip than other teams in the league, giving him many more shots.

AND, he plays nearly 10 more minutes a game than Manu does.

IF Manu played 40 minutes a game, he'd be a lock for the ASG.

[Brodels]

This is BS, Manu is an All-Star whether the coaches select him or not.

Gold medal olmypians not in the ASG...? Sounds dumb to me.

What do the olympics have to do with the NBA all star game? Nothing. The NBA all star game includes popular player having good seasons in the NBA...not internationally. While a player's international performances might make him more popular worldwide, that doesn't really matter much when you're talking about the reserves.

If a gold medal makes a player a lock for the all star game, Nocioni should be there, too.

[ALVAREZ6]

If a gold medal makes a player a lock for the all star game, Nocioni should be there, too.

Nocioni didn't lead his team, Manu did.

I'm just saying, people vote for the same people year after year in the US.

Winning a gold medal, and defeating the US 2 consecutive times , you would think that helps...

[Brodels]

Shawn Marion is at about 20 ppg and 10 rpg.

He's a great player and DOES deserve to be an all-star.

HOWEVER, his team scores at a much higher clip than other teams in the league, giving him many more shots.

AND, he plays nearly 10 more minutes a game than Manu does.

IF Manu played 40 minutes a game, he'd be a lock for the ASG.

That's true, but you have to consider a player's ability to play 40 or more mpg into the equation when debating a player's greatness. A player capable of playing 42 minutes per game is going to be more valuable than an identical player capable of playing only 32 minutes per game.

Manu doesn't get less minutes because Pop doesn't like him or because the Spurs are deep. He gets less minutes than other stars because he isn't capable of playing at a high level for 42 minutes per game every night. He expends lots of energy and gets tired.

He's at his best when he's playing less than 36 minutes per game. Some players can be fine playing much more. But you have to consider a player's ability to play big minutes when considering his effectiveness.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu doesn't get less minutes because Pop doesn't like him or because the Spurs are deep. He gets less minutes than other stars because he isn't capable of playing at a high level for 42 minutes per game every night. He expends lots of energy and gets tired.

That's because he spends so much energy into every single move he makes on the court.

Other players don't have to do that, but he gives a lot of effort in everything that he does on the court.

Duncan is a forward, and he doesn't necessarily have to move around as much as Manu.

[Brodels]

Nocioni didn't lead his team, Manu did.

I'm just saying, people vote for the same people year after year in the US.

Winning a gold medal, and defeating the US 2 consecutive times , you would think that helps...

And it might. But I hope it doesn't.

NBA all stars should be there because they get it done in the NBA. I'd like Manu to make it, but his performances in another league really shouldn't translate to an all star berth in an entirely different league. If he gets voted in because he's more popular as a result of his international play, that's fine. But the coaches should select him or not select him based solely upon what he's done in the league this season.

[Brodels]

That's because he spends so much energy into every single move he makes on the court.

Other players don't have to do that, but he gives a lot of effort in everything that he does on the court.

Duncan is a forward, and he doesn't necessarily have to move around as much as Manu.

Or it could be that Manu is so good because he plays with so much effort and energy. If you reduce Manu's energy level by 35%, he isn't going to be a star. If you reduce some other stars' energy level by the same amount, some will still be effective because their games don't rely on creating havoc.

Manu is as good as many other top two guards, but he wouldn't be if he didn't put forth the effort that we see every night.

[picnroll]

That's because Manu plays on both ends of the court, doesn't take a rest on the defensive end like Marion does.

[1Parker1]

Hey, I didn't realize it, but Shaq didn't start last year?

[exstatic]

Hey shortstuff - Talk about being blind. The coaches MUST pick a player from the center position on the ballot. Amare doesn't count, as he was listed as a forward. Learn or burn.

[milkyway21]

Thats very true. Gold medals don't make allstars in the NBA.how about 2 NBA titles in the last 6 years? :rolleyes

[Supergirl]

Manu should go over Peja, not because he's better, but because he's played better more consistantly over the first half of the season. Manu's had a couple monster games, Peja's having a fairly mediocre season compared to last year.

[Brodels]

how about 2 NBA titles in the last 6 years? :rolleyes

Huh? What are you talking about?

[atlfan25]

NO. :nope

Steve Nash make it ALL happen. That's why they are winning those games. That's why Amare is having the best season of his career.Marion, too. And the reason Nash an early MVP favorite. Amare & Marion played last season together, they didn't win much.

Remember, when Nash got injured? Remember those losing streak? :rolleyes

Nash & Amare are just my picks. Nash for being the top pt. guard this season. Amare as a solid backup for Yao(if Miller can't make it).
lets not get out of hand here, nash isn't making marion what he is, or his numbers. marion has been putting these same numbers up the previous 4 years before the arrival of Nash.

Shawn Marion:
00-01 17.3 pts 10.7 rbs
01-02 19.1 pts 9.9 rbs
02-03 21.2 pts 9.5 rbs
03-04 19.0 pts 9.3 rbs
04-05 19.4 pts 10.9 rbs

I don't see why he shouldn't be an all-star

[MI21]

Milkyway, it is not unheard of for 3 All-Stars from the same team being picked.

Hell, in I think it was 97-98, the Lakers had 4. Shaq, Kobe, Van Exel and Eddie Jones.

Dallas may have had 3 with Nowitzki, Nash and Finley though I am not sure. I think in 93-94 the Bulls had Pippen, Grant and Armstrong as well.

[SequSpur]

I think Finley was hurt, but they never have played 3 mavs.

[MI21]

Well, I know that the Lakers had 4 and am 75% sure that the Bulls had 3 the year after Jordan retired.

[carolgino]

Hey, I didn't realize it, but Shaq didn't start last year?Yao was the starter..

[carolgino]

will there be more than 4 guards?

my picks:Steve Nash Manu Stoudemire Nowitzki Webber
Ray Allen Peja

[travis2]

Hey shortstuff - Talk about being blind. The coaches MUST pick a player from the center position on the ballot. Amare doesn't count, as he was listed as a forward. Learn or burn.


ummmm...according to an article in another thread, while the coaches must pick "a center", they are not locked to the players listed positions.

[travis2]

yes...here it is...posted in http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10121


Seven Super Sups
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
OK. Now for the rest of the argument.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/colum...marc&id=1983530

The fans have spoken. If you want to see Vince Carter and Grant Hill line up opposite Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett for the opening jump at the Pepsi Center on Feb. 20 ... it's your game.


Let's proceed to the next source of contention: All-Star reserves. On Tuesday, we'll learn the official identities of the seven East and West backups, but ESPN.com can't wait. So herewith are the Stein Line benches for each conference, following the same selection guidelines that the coaches get from the league.


That's two forwards, two guards, one center and two wild cards in each conference, with the coaches permitted to vote for players without being locked in to the positions they're listed at on the All-Star ballot.

[spurster]

Manu has had a better year than all the other reserve choices if you add in the gold medal.

[Taco]

If any other Spur gets in, it will be Manu. Phoenix is getting 3 players in. That's a done deal.



3 Players for the Sun's!!
No Way Jose

[CosmicCowboy]

Here is the list of the top players that might be selected to the Allstar game. The ones in bold are my picks. Sorry, no tortilla Manu.

Ray Allen, Seattle (24.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.1 apg)
Mike Bibby, Sacramento (17.5 ppg, 6.4 apg)
Carlos Boozer, Utah (18.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg)
Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers (20.0 ppg, 9.6 rpg)
Pau Gasol, Memphis (18.9 ppg, 8.2 rpg)
Emmanuel Ginobili, San Antonio (15.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg)
Rashard Lewis, Seattle (20.6 ppg, 2.5 3pg)
Shawn Marion, Phoenix (19.4 ppg, 10.9 rpg)
Brad Miller, Sacramento (15.2 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 3.7 apg)
Tony Parker, San Antonio (15.6 ppg, 6.1 apg)
Steve Nash, Phoenix (15.5 ppg, 11.1 apg)
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas (26.6 ppg, 9.9 rpg)
Predrag Stojakovic, Sacramento (20.3 ppg, 2.6 3pg)
Amare Stoudemire, Phoneix (25.9 ppg, 8.5 rpg)
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah (14.2 ppg, 3.9 bpg, 1.4 spg)


Pau Gasol is on the IL and won't be available for the all star game.

[stéphane]

*cries* as well as all the other french to see that TP won't go to ASG this year...
Would have been awesome, but let's hope he keeps playing like he did the past few weeks and gets in there next year. go tony go :)

[Frenchise player]

The decision isn't made yet. I just can't imagine the coachs won't take at least two Spurs players for the ASG, as San Antonio is currently leading the league, and I still think it is possible that both Manu and Tony makes it if Kobe won't play and also because the Suns will get 3 players and are behind the Spurs.

If They had to choose between the two players, it will be hard. I think the statistics and contribution to the team factors don't make a clear choice between Manu and Tony. Then there is two scenarios possible:
_They decide to pick Manu because they want the most spectacular player.
_They choose Tony because he is the second best PG in the Western.

I don't understand why people are still picking guys like Stojakovic who is just a shooter, he can't defend and he contributes poorly for rebound and assists, he is not having a good season.
You can't take both Gasol and Brand, 4 PF would be too much for only one game (and I am not counting neither KG nor Amare),.

[Mr. Body]

No way Peja should get a nod. Stats alone, I take Bibby over Parker.

I don't think Pau or Rashard Lewis really deserve it this year. Lewis over Gasol, though.

Kirilenko doesn't deserve consideration. He's been too hurt and his team stinks too much.

Not sure about Marion. The Spurs deserve two before Phoenix gets three.

Unfortunately that's not how things work.

[Rick Von Braun]

Reserves West:

Center: Amare Stoudemire

Forwards: Dirk Nowitzki, Shawn Marion, Chris Webber

Guards: Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Emmanuel Ginobili

[Rick Von Braun]

Full team west:

Centers: Yao Ming, Amare Stoudemire

Forwards: Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Shawn Marion, Chris Webber

Guards: Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Emmanuel Ginobili


italics: starters voted in.


3 players from the Suns
2 players from the Spurs
2 players from the Rockets (voted in)
1 player from the Sonics
1 player from the Kings
1 player from the Mavericks
1 player from the Timberwolves (voted in)
1 player from the Lakers (voted in)

The reserves were picked considering team records as well. The Suns, Spurs, Sonics, Kings, and Mavs all have good records and deserve a player in the ASG.

[Nikos]

It could come down to Shard, Elton Brand, Manu, Parker, Bibby, Peja and even a guy like Jrich (who I do not think deserves to make it, but will get considered cause of pure accumulated stats).

Problem is Manu might not get as much respect cause he does not average 20ppg or anything like that. So Shard might get the nod. I just hope they do not take Richardson before any of these guys, same with Peja who has been having a mediocre season.

But then again, it is all about the entertainment, and not always about the best players. Hard to judge that type of stuff anyway, so many variables.

But of course I would like to see Manu + TP get the nod and serious consideration. Would be fun to see another Spur there.

[FromWayDowntown]

The "2 guys from the Spurs before 3 guys from the Suns" argument would make sense, if you had a group sitting down to decide the issue. But that's not how All-Star reserves are selected.

As I understand the process, each coach has a ballot and each coach votes for 2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center (or center-like player -- Stoudemire may have been listed as a forward on the ballot, but he's started every game this season at Center, according to the NBA's official boxscores), and 2 "wild cards." When the 15 coaches have submitted their ballots, the league will tally them. The top 2 guards make it, as do the top 2 forwards and the top center. After that, it's entirely a matter of which "other" players have the most votes. It's possible that some coaches will use the "2 Spurs before 3 Suns" mentality, but unless the majority do that, the idea won't really come into play in selecting the all-star reserves.

It's entirely a question of how divided the voting is at any position and how unanimous it is on the "wild cards." I'd think that coaches will bow to the pressure to include Manu (and I suspect the NBA would love to have Manu there, if only to ensure that every soul in Argentina wil watch the All-Star game).

Manu's inclusion would be much less of a question if it were a U.S. v. World setup.


That's because Manu plays on both ends of the court, doesn't take a rest on the defensive end like Marion does.

You haven't seen much of Marion, have you?

[Rick Von Braun]

Ha, Marc Stein from ESPN.com picked exactly the same reserves I proposed. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1983530)


Thursday, February 3, 2005
Seven super subs

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

OK. Now for the rest of the argument.

The fans have spoken. If you want to see Vince Carter and Grant Hill line up opposite Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett for the opening jump at the Pepsi Center on Feb. 20 ... it's your game.

Let's proceed to the next source of contention: All-Star reserves. On Tuesday, we'll learn the official identities of the seven East and West backups, but ESPN.com can't wait. So herewith are the Stein Line benches for each conference, following the same selection guidelines that the coaches get from the league.

That's two forwards, two guards, one center and two wild cards in each conference, with the coaches permitted to vote for players without being locked in to the positions they're listed at on the All-Star ballot.

Ready ...

... to debate?


Western Conference reserves


Guards: Steve Nash (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3103) and Ray Allen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3080)



http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3080.jpgAllen http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3103.jpgNash

The case: If you read my mythical All-Star ballot (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1975826) -- mythical because I don't believe in punching actual ballots, since they belong to the fans -- you know that Nash and Allen would have been my choices to start over Kobe Bryant (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3118) and Tracy McGrady (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3179). As such, Nash and Allen are slam-dunk reserve choices, given that Phoenix and Seattle still rank as the biggest surprise teams in the league. West coaches won't need 10 seconds to fill these two spots.



Forwards: Dirk Nowitzki (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3252) and Chris Webber (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1272)



http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/1272.jpgWebber http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3252.jpgNowitzki

The case: Kevin Garnett (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3007) is so consumed by winning that I suspect even he didn't protest too loudly Tuesday night when he heard on ESPN2 that the NBA Nation crew would have voted for Nowitzki as the West's other starter at forward alongside Tim Duncan (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3173). That's because KG, like me, puts team success above all else. Yet there's no shame for Nowitzki losing out to Duncan and Garnett in the fan vote, as both are playing at their usual MVP standard and because every good forward in the West knows there isn't much chance of unseating one of those two in the balloting process. Nowitzki's success as the fast-emerging leader of the new Mavericks nonetheless makes him an obvious first choice in this category, and Webber beats out the typically deep field of frontcourt contenders for the second slot because the Kings, at 31-14 despite their thinned-out bench, have to have an All-Star. And Webber is the most sensible Kings choice, having maintained his effectiveness and versatility (as well as drastically improving his free-throw shooting) despite the physical limitations imposed on him by ongoing knee trouble.


Center: Amare Stoudemire (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3607)



http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3607.jpgStoudemire

The case: Stoudemire prefers to be known as a forward, but he's a center by default for the Suns and thus an instant selection here. The coaches, remember, do not have to strictly follow the All-Star ballot when making their picks ... as long as the player in question really plays multiple positions. Stoudemire has been so impressive that he'll claim this spot in even fewer than 10 seconds, although Sacramento's Brad Miller (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3305) deserves some kudos for making a nice late run.



Wild cards: Shawn Marion (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3332) and Manu Ginobili (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3380)



http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3380.jpgGinobili http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3332.jpgMarion

The case: In this conference, which isn't as mighty as it used to be but is still teeming with parity, we lean heavily on the team-success tiebreaker for help. The Spurs, for example, have to have a second All-Star in our world, as the reigning title favorites approaching the All-Star break. As San Antonio's second-best player, statistically and intangibly, Ginobili thus beats out Tony Parker (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3527) to join Duncan. Marion, meanwhile, makes it here because the Suns are right there record-wise with the Spurs, which gives them the rare justification to send a third All-Star to Denver after last season's 29-53 nightmare. It doesn't hurt that Marion's production is questionably All-Star caliber; he's averaging 19.4 points, 10.9 rebounds, 2.2 steals and 1.4 blocks as a 6-7 power forward.


The leading snubees: Memphis' Pau Gasol (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3513) is becoming a regular customer here, although it was tougher to exclude him this season after his role in the Grizzlies' turnaround from a 5-11 start. Seattle's Rashard Lewis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3275) was equally tough to snub, as you can argue that the Sonics deserve two All-Stars as much as Phoenix deserves three. The Clippers' ever-steady Elton Brand (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3324) is bound to be excluded by the coaches again, even though he gets better every year, and Utah's Andrei Kirilenko (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3347) was headed for certain Defensive Player of the Year honors -- and a second consecutive All-Star appearance -- before a knee injury sidelined him. Parker, Sacramento's Mike Bibby (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3245) and Golden State's Jason Richardson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3515) (a stretch given the Warriors' struggles) are the only other guards on the radar. Yet the big disappointment, of course, is that the host Nuggets won't come close to getting anyone on the West roster. Not Kenyon Martin (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3400), and not Carmelo Anthony (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3706).

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smismokin.gif

[picnroll]

Marion can play good D but no Suns this year, including Marion, is playing D with the intensity or commitment Spurs players are, particularly Manu or Bowen.

[Frenchise player]

Parker: 33.6 min, 15.8 points, 6.2 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.06 steals, 2.69 TO, 49%FG

Ginobili: 29.8 min, 15.9 points, 4 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.76 steals, 2.28 To, 49% FG

I think it is difficult to tell if Manu is better Tony intangibly, but it is wrong to say he is better statistically, there stats are almost the same.

[FromWayDowntown]

Anybody see that Marty Burns of CNN is arguing that Kirilenko should be taken over Manu this year?

On sheer value, without regard to anything that has happened this season, his point is probably well-taken. But since Kirilenko has missed around 1/3 of the pre-break games, I can't see that he's got a leg to stand on in performance terms.

Burns' All-Star Picks (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/marty_burns/02/02/all.star/)

[waly.mg]

Vote For Manu And Parker

[Nikos]

Parker: 33.6 min, 15.8 points, 6.2 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.06 steals, 2.69 TO, 49%FG

Ginobili: 29.8 min, 15.9 points, 4 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.76 steals, 2.28 To, 49% FG

I think it is difficult to tell if Manu is better Tony intangibly, but it is wrong to say he is better statistically, there stats are almost the same.

At first glance they seem so. But you have to also factor shot attempts to get the full picture of efficiency.

[E20]

Magic, Kenny, and Barkely all picked Ginobili as the Wild Card during Inside the NBA on TNT last night.

[picnroll]

Don't know about comparisons but how many teams have their starting PG and SG both shooting .490. :smokin

[ALVAREZ6]

If he gets voted in because he's more popular as a result of his international play, that's fine.

Ok Dude, Manu is popular because of his NBA play as well. Is he not exciting?

Just because he doesn't have Lebron numbers doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it.

[Rick Von Braun]

Anybody see that Marty Burns of CNN is arguing that Kirilenko should be taken over Manu this year?

On sheer value, without regard to anything that has happened this season, his point is probably well-taken. But since Kirilenko has missed around 1/3 of the pre-break games, I can't see that he's got a leg to stand on in performance terms.

Burns' All-Star Picks (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/marty_burns/02/02/all.star/)Actually more than that... he played in only 20 out of the 46 games Utah has played so far in the season.

I do believe AK-47 is a hell of a player and he would probably have been chosen if not for missing so many games due to injury. Even in this case, you could make the argument that he would have taken Marion's spot. They play in the same position(s), and this would remove one of the extra Suns' spots (so other teams won't complain). By simply extrapolating the stats, I think Marion's still is ahead of AK-47 stat wise though.

Anyway, the stats are only one of the aspects considered in the selection of the reserves, and AK-47 would probably have been chosen for no other reason than to have more players from other teams.

[Mr. Body]

NO to AK-47. Nobody from lousy teams should be considered for the reserves. You reward good play for good teams.

That's why the East is so ridiculous. Two players from a bad team will likely go to the ASG: Vince Carter (voted in) and Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd will steal Gilbert Arenas' spot.

[Matrix]

Marion can play good D but no Suns this year, including Marion, is playing D with the intensity or commitment Spurs players are, particularly Manu or Bowen.

Actually Marion and JJ play excellent D its the other three that aren't as committed as those two. And if you want to consider defense isn't the best tally for seeing what a good defense is the point differential...and since the suns score more they're going to give up more points, but when it comes down to it.

The spurs are the best at
+11.02
The suns are second with
+8.68

Difference of 2.34. I don't think a good defense means you hold a team to a low scoring game but a good defense holds a team to scoring way less points than you do and thats what both these teams do...

[Extra Stout]

Actually Marion and JJ play excellent D its the other three that aren't as committed as those two. And if you want to consider defense isn't the best tally for seeing what a good defense is the point differential...and since the suns score more they're going to give up more points, but when it comes down to it.

The spurs are the best at
+11.02
The suns are second with
+8.68

Difference of 2.34. I don't think a good defense means you hold a team to a low scoring game but a good defense holds a team to scoring way less points than you do and thats what both these teams do...The only way teams get these kinds of point differentials is to be great at BOTH ends of the floor.

[Matrix]

which I believe both these teams are hence thats why they are 1-2

[FromWayDowntown]

Well, I don't think you can really make an argument that Phoenix is a good defensive team. Certainly not good in the same sense that the Spurs are good defensive team.

The point differential is one aspect of assessing defense, but it's equally a comment on offense. Defense is about stopping your opponent, and the point differential doesn't inherently say anything, really about stops. A bad offensive team could still have a high point differential, if it played really good defense. Phoenix is the opposite of that. They score so many points, that teams can't keep up. In point differential terms, it's Phoenix's offense that gives them large margins.

Phoenix's defense might be adequate, in light of their points scored, or better yet, it might be deemed "effective," but it is certainly not good.

[whottt]

Manu is the only SG that ranks in the top 10 in the WC in:
PPG
FG%
3P%
FT%
Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocks

[Nikos]

http://members.rogers.com/edkupfer/nba/team_stats_small.htm

Please use that link to see just how good certain defenses and offenses are. Simple. Much better than simple PPG scored and allowed. It factors in efficiency.

[whottt]

http://members.rogers.com/edkupfer/nba/team_stats_small.htm

Please use that link to see just how good certain defenses and offenses are. Simple. Much better than simple PPG scored and allowed. It factors in efficiency.


Be sure to tell them to look at Brent Barry under offensive production. Hopefully then maybe they'll understand why he needs to be on the court any time our offense is stagnating.

[whottt]

To all the guys who keep downplaying Manu's Gold Medal performance...I understand the point you make about it being a different game...

But what exactly has TMac ever done? Lose 19 in a row? Tank it?


You can have the guy who loses 19 in a row while leading the NBA in scoring...I'll take the guy that knocks off a team of NBA All Stars(about half of whom will be on this years All Star Team), international play or not.

[Nikos]

Yes, Brent Barry is one of the most productive offensive role players in the league. Although he does not see as many possesions as he did in Seattle, he is supremely efficient cause he scores and produces on a limited amount of possesions.

The fact that he does not turn it over really helps out a lot as well. I still think he can stay at the same efficiency or better, even with more possesions in the offense. But if Parker and Manu stay solid, they should not be a big deal.

But I still would like to see Barry fulfill his potential in his role. He has a little bit more potency left in him.

[whottt]

But I still would like to see Barry fulfill his potential in his role. He has a little bit more potency left in him.


Barry's not used to all this winning and getting all these wide open shots...it's too rich for his sytem.

This guy is used to playing for teams like the Clippers, the post Jordan Bulls, and the baaaad Sonics.

His FG%'s will improve next season.

In the meantime, he's been clutch...I just hope it translates to the post season.

[Brodels]

Ok Dude, Manu is popular because of his NBA play as well. Is he not exciting?

Just because he doesn't have Lebron numbers doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it.

I didn't say anything about numbers. All I'm saying is that Manu should make the all star game because of what he's done in the NBA this season, not because of what he did in international play.

[Brodels]

NO to AK-47. Nobody from lousy teams should be considered for the reserves. You reward good play for good teams.

That's why the East is so ridiculous. Two players from a bad team will likely go to the ASG: Vince Carter (voted in) and Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd will steal Gilbert Arenas' spot.

Winning should be a factor, but I think it's short-sighted to say that no players from bad teams should make the all star game. Some really good players have some really good seasons on bad teams. Some of the time, there isn't much they can do to turn the team around.

I agree about AK47. I think he's played well enough, but he simply hasn't appeared in enough games. Manu should certainly go before him.

If Kobe doesn't play, and it's looking like that will be the case, I would think that it would be great for Manu to go. If Kobe is there, I simply can't see how Manu can be considered over Kobe, McGrady, Allen, and Nash. And if I had to pick another small forward/guard, I'd have to consider Lewis as much as I'd have to consider Manu. He's had a great season.

I hope Manu goes, but in my mind, he's really borderline. In the end, I really don't give a crap. I'm more interested in what happens in the months after the all star game. If Manu goes, I pray that he won't get hurt.

I'm all for the all star game because the fans like it. But what do you all think about possibly playing the game after the regular season like the NFL does? It would get less attention, but I would hate to see any player on any team miss significant time because he got injured in the all star game.

[carolgino]

anyway,all-star week is also a chance for a rest during the season..

i'm afraid Nash,Ray Allen,maybe Mike Bibby will be considered over Manu.i don't want to see that,but that might be a fact