The Problem with the Spurs

[pad300]

Interesting blog article:

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2008/7/13/570998/the-problem-with-the-spurs

He has a point. As he says, lose the top 3 players off a team and see how they compare with the Spurs w/o, Tim, Manu, Tony
Spurs
Michael Finley
Brent Barry
Bruce Bowen
Ime Udoka
Fabricio Oberto
Matt Bonner
Kurt Thomas
Jacque Vaughn
Robert Horry

vs.

Boston
Rajon Rondo
Eddie House
James Posey
Kendrick Perkins
Tony Allen
Leon Powe
Glen Davis
Sam Cassell
Brian Scalabrine
Scot Pollard
P.J. Brown
Gabe Pruitt

vs. Lakers

Derek Fisher
Jordan Farmar
Sasha Vujacic
Vladimir Radmanovic
Luke Walton
Ronny Turiaf
Andrew Bynum * (you might say Odom should be here rather than Bynum)
Trevor Ariza
Chris Mihm
Javaris Crittenton
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga
Coby Karl

I think I would take either the Lakers or the Celtics to win a seven game series...I think that our FO has made the same mistake the Lakers FO did during their 3 peat - being complacent, saying that the older guys had one more run, rather than actively looking to improve every year. They have also been much to unwilling to tolerate rookies; the first round locked in contract is the biggest source of regular bargains (salary vs production) in the league. I think that Portland realized this and started to purchase 1st round picks whenever they were available, and in doing so have laid the foundations for what may turn out to be a dynasty. Certainly, in the future, we should look to make any such purchases possible.

[Marcus Bryant]

Because Portland has had so much success over the last 5 to 6 seasons.

In any event, comparing two teams in the top 10, if not 5 of US media markets and a third owned by one of the wealthiest men on Earth with the San Antonio Spurs is absurd.

[oligarchy]

I don't think the valuation of talent on these teams is completely the same. Yes, the Lakers were without Bynum, but they picked up Gasol. So they essentially replaced Bynum's output with that of Gasol. So, what if the Lakers had one of Bryant, Odom or Gasol to be hurt during the series? Who wins?

The Celtic were saved by PJ Brown, of all people, against the Cavs. That's why Allen's play wasn't missed as much during that series.

If you have any gripe, it should be a aimed at Pop for not playing Barry more, or his failure to pull Ginobili sooner. To say that their bench completely is irrelevant is egregious at best.

[pad300]

Because Portland has had so much success over the last 5 to 6 seasons.

In any event, comparing two teams in the top 10, if not 5 of US media markets and a third owned by one of the wealthiest men on Earth with the San Antonio Spurs is absurd.

Really, 1) I said Portland has LAID THE FOUNDATIONS FOR, not built the building. Work on your reading comprehension.
2) Gee, all these teams play in the same league, with the same (soft) salary cap. Of the 4 teams considered, I believe 1 paid lux tax this year (LA)... Still, if you prefer to try the exercise with other teams - say NO, DEN, and DET, the results stay the same. Our bottom 9 is seriously outclassed...

[Tully365]

If the fans of any other team in the league were told that in the next two years their team would win one title and lose in the conference finals the other, those fans would be ecstatic. That's what the Spurs did the last two years. They have set the bar so high that their fans can actually call a loss in the conference finals a "terrible year."
Boston is the media darling now, but does anyone want to revisit their last five years? If you add up wins and titles for the last decade, there's no comparison. The Spurs just in the last month have officially started their "youth movement." Let's at least give those 4 guys a chance... If Hill's as good as Rondo, and Mahinmi's as good as Powe, this article is null and void.

[oligarchy]

Really, 1) I said Portland has LAID THE FOUNDATIONS FOR, not built the building. Work on your reading comprehension.
2) Gee, all these teams play in the same league, with the same (soft) salary cap. Of the 4 teams considered, I believe 1 paid lux tax this year (LA)... Still, if you prefer to try the exercise with other teams - say NO, DEN, and DET, the results stay the same. Our bottom 9 is seriously outclassed...

The two finals teams - BOS and LA, both paid Luxury Tax.

Detroit and SA didn't pay and both were bounced in the Conference Finals.

Nuggets? Paid Luxury tax.

Portland laid the foundations of what? Spending freely of Allen's money? What's your point? Spurs don't spend recklessly. They try to find pieces that will play within their budget.

[wildbill2u]

The Spurs not only never pay the luxury tax, that means they get part of the distribution from the teams that do as a windfall. This month they got almost $4,000,000.

But you'll never see them reinvesting that money in players that might send THEM into luxury tax land. Wouldn't be prudent.

[timvp]

Eh I skimmed it and basically it looks like he's complaining about the supporting cast around the Big Three. He has somewhat of a point and upgrading the supporting cast is what the Spurs are trying to do, so it's not like that was a revelation. But really, that same supporting cast won the 2007 championship so it's hard to fault it too much.

Having three stars and a bunch of role players is the most common formula for winning NBA championships. And yes, those three stars have to stay healthy. That's part of the equation. Having a team of stars to fill in for an injured star is unrealistic.

The same formula has gotten the Spurs four championships. Who were the great 4-12 players in 1999, 2003 and 2005? The Bulls teams used the same formula. Some of their 4-12 lineups were horrible. Even the Lakers three-peat featured a lot of scrubs in the 4-12 area.

To win a championship this coming year, the Spurs will need the Big Three to be healthy in the playoffs. They would have needed the Big Three to stay healthy with or without Corey Maggette or JR Smith or whoever else. Health is the variable but that's why championships are hard to win. You can't protect yourself from everything that may go wrong.

And comparing the Spurs to teams like the Celtics and Lakers who have been mediocre to bad for a long while isn't really fair. Those teams can stockpile draft picks over the years and make trades when necessary because they didn't have any chemistry to worry about. The Spurs have been good for an insane amount of years now. That takes a toll in terms of draft picks and limited money in free agency. All that said, the Spurs will have another good shot in '09 -- if they're healthy.

[tlongII]

Now and in the future you need 4 stars, not 3.

[TheProfessor]

Now and in the future you need 4 stars, not 3.
Boston's fourth star would be who exactly?

[Tully365]

Now and in the future you need 4 stars, not 3.

But more importantly, you need those stars to play. Oden hasn't played a full season of organized basketball in two years. He has had more serious injuries in the past two years than Duncan has had in ten. I wish him the best, but it might be wise to not be quite so cocky just yet.

[Obstructed_View]

None of those looks markedly better than the Spurs. I think Crittenton is a Grizzly now, btw.

[mrspurs]

the guy is right....no doubt about it......ive said everything this guy said only he put it on a thread...pop wasting games with mighty mouse was an insult to anyone who understands HCA...pop and the FO getting scared when the suns brought in shaq and like alot of teams did some stupid trades......by pop saying HCA wasnt important cos the west was so good was imo making fools of those few who understand HCA is everything.....especially when the rest of the teams our tougher....pops mule ways cost us HCA and i dont have to forgive him nor will i....for sometime i thought pop was working for mark cuban all season long...doing stupid things when stupid things really could have been avoided...and there is no hiding from it......there is no trophy to hide behind your mistakes...now my kids neat to get cheatcodes for some game...so there was my imo.......

[Manufan909]

The Spurs have been in the top five for a good part of the past decade, so of course people have had ample time to discern faults, while everyone has 30 day amnesia when it comes to the Celtics, who played a 7 game series with CLEVELAND AND ATLANTA. Two suckier playoff teams you wouldn't have been able find this past year. Hell, if they'd played anyone in the west, or especially the pistons in one of the first two rounds, they would've been gangraped like Lebron and co. were last year.

His arguement does have merit though, the Spurs have relied on detiorating jigsaw pieces for too long now. Hopefully Bonner, Hill, Gist, and Mahinmi all get 12+ minutes in the first half of next season to prove their worth(and for all the Bonner haters, that would most likely be done to up his value for a midseason S&T). And I swear to god, the starting lineup better be: Tony, Mason, Bowen, KT, Tim. Oberto should just come off the bench with Manu, that's all that makes him special anyways.

[oligarchy]

the guy is right....no doubt about it......ive said everything this guy said only he put it on a thread...pop wasting games with mighty mouse was an insult to anyone who understands HCA...pop and the FO getting scared when the suns brought in shaq and like alot of teams did some stupid trades......by pop saying HCA wasnt important cos the west was so good was imo making fools of those few who understand HCA is everything.....especially when the rest of the teams our tougher....pops mule ways cost us HCA and i dont have to forgive him nor will i....for sometime i thought pop was working for mark cuban all season long...doing stupid things when stupid things really could have been avoided...and there is no hiding from it......there is no trophy to hide behind your mistakes...now my kids neat to get cheatcodes for some game...so there was my imo.......

Do you actually type just to type, or do you want people to actually read what you write and respond to it? If so, could you possibly construct sentences so those that read it can understand the logical flow? Try not separating every thought with "...." so it's easier to read. If you don't understand how to construct sentences because English isn't your first language, as I can tell your first language isn't English, I can point you to a website.

[rj215]

the guy is right....no doubt about it......ive said everything this guy said only he put it on a thread...pop wasting games with mighty mouse was an insult to anyone who understands HCA...pop and the FO getting scared when the suns brought in shaq and like alot of teams did some stupid trades......by pop saying HCA wasnt important cos the west was so good was imo making fools of those few who understand HCA is everything.....especially when the rest of the teams our tougher....pops mule ways cost us HCA and i dont have to forgive him nor will i....for sometime i thought pop was working for mark cuban all season long...doing stupid things when stupid things really could have been avoided...and there is no hiding from it......there is no trophy to hide behind your mistakes...now my kids neat to get cheatcodes for some game...so there was my imo.......

i'll never forgive pop either......for the 4 titles in 10 years....man i'm a big critic of the spurs drafting and signing some sorry free agents but c'mon dude...you're talking about a guy that helped make the spurs the best organization in north american sports in last decade...

[Anti.Hero]

We Need A Big Who Can Come Off The Bench And Score On His Own For Christ's Sake!


OUR OFFENSE IS PATHETIC!111111!!!11onetwoone!1111

[DPG21920]

None of those looks markedly better than the Spurs. I think Crittenton is a Grizzly now, btw.

I wonder what is going to happen with Crittenton? I mean, he has nice physical tools, but now OJ Mayo, Mike Conley Jr., Marko Jaric and Kyle Lowry

[Spurs da champs]

the spurs passed on Darell arthur,For a nobody typical.

[brettn]

the guy is right....no doubt about it......ive said everything this guy said only he put it on a thread...pop wasting games with mighty mouse was an insult to anyone who understands HCA...pop and the FO getting scared when the suns brought in shaq and like alot of teams did some stupid trades......by pop saying HCA wasnt important cos the west was so good was imo making fools of those few who understand HCA is everything.....especially when the rest of the teams our tougher....pops mule ways cost us HCA and i dont have to forgive him nor will i....for sometime i thought pop was working for mark cuban all season long...doing stupid things when stupid things really could have been avoided...and there is no hiding from it......there is no trophy to hide behind your mistakes...now my kids neat to get cheatcodes for some game...so there was my imo.......

It's hard to believe a "spurs" fan could write something so fucking stupid. It's ok if shit like this really runs through your brain, but next time you post something so idiotic, please make your post legible at least? Actually don't bother, most people will probably just skim over your post due to lack of paragraphing. I know I wish I had.

[TheMadHatter]

There's no point in getting young for the sake of getting young. Your young talent has to have the potential to become something otherwise they'll be no more useful than the old farts you have.

Spurs hit the goldmine when they drafted Manu and Parker and those two acquisitions allowed them to contend for another 5 years. I'm not sure they'll be able to replicate that kind of drafting again with international players being more heavily scouted by other NBA teams.

[Tully365]

There's no point in getting young for the sake of getting young. Your young talent has to have the potential to become something otherwise they'll be no more useful than the old farts you have.

Spurs hit the goldmine when they drafted Manu and Parker and those two acquisitions allowed them to contend for another 5 years. I'm not sure they'll be able to replicate that kind of drafting again with international players being more heavily scouted by other NBA teams.

They probably have come close to replicating that success with Scola and Splitter, but have run into serious snags when it came to actually signing them.
But it seems to me that their ability to judge talent is as strong as ever. If Hill plays well, they will be admired for choosing a star from a lower tier mid major program in 2008 as much as they were admired in the past for picking a skinny French kid that many were unfamiliar with.

A year ago, Kobe was saying the same thing about Bynum.

[703 Spurz]

Interesting blog article:

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2008/7/13/570998/the-problem-with-the-spurs

He has a point. As he says, lose the top 3 players off a team and see how they compare with the Spurs w/o, Tim, Manu, Tony
Spurs
Michael Finley
Brent Barry
Bruce Bowen
Ime Udoka
Fabricio Oberto
Matt Bonner
Kurt Thomas
Jacque Vaughn
Robert Horry

vs.

Boston
Rajon Rondo
Eddie House
James Posey
Kendrick Perkins
Tony Allen
Leon Powe
Glen Davis
Sam Cassell
Brian Scalabrine
Scot Pollard
P.J. Brown
Gabe Pruitt

vs. Lakers

Derek Fisher
Jordan Farmar
Sasha Vujacic
Vladimir Radmanovic
Luke Walton
Ronny Turiaf
Andrew Bynum * (you might say Odom should be here rather than Bynum)
Trevor Ariza
Chris Mihm
Javaris Crittenton
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga
Coby Karl

I think I would take either the Lakers or the Celtics to win a seven game series...I think that our FO has made the same mistake the Lakers FO did during their 3 peat - being complacent, saying that the older guys had one more run, rather than actively looking to improve every year. They have also been much to unwilling to tolerate rookies; the first round locked in contract is the biggest source of regular bargains (salary vs production) in the league. I think that Portland realized this and started to purchase 1st round picks whenever they were available, and in doing so have laid the foundations for what may turn out to be a dynasty. Certainly, in the future, we should look to make any such purchases possible.

The Celtics were without Garnett and Allen.....they had less then 25 wins last year without them both.

LA without Kobe, Gasol, and Odom/Bynum? How is that any better?

[AC#21_TD ERA]

Great article. It's so damn true. He hit the nail on head so many times in that article. Let's face it weren't a healthy ankle away from making the finals. The Spurs got exposed on the offensive end this season due to the F.O stubbornness. The alarming thing is that they still haven't done anything yet to address those alarming issues.

[Supergirl]

Actually, outside of the top 3 on the Boston list, I'd take most of the Spurs role players/bench over any of the others. I don't know what Odom or Bynum is doing on either list for the Lakers - Laker' big 3 consists of Kobe, Odom/Bynum, and no one. They have good role players after that, but none of them as individual players are any better than some of the talent the Spurs have.

Udoka has shown he's got real offensive talent, and he's a defensive ace. Thomas is a banger who can hold guys in check. Bonner has the potential to be a younger, healthier Barry/Kerr/Horry - a spot up 3 shooter. He doesn't have Horry's defense, but that's hard to find in a role player.

By upgrading to Roger Mason, we got younger and more athletic without losing defense. By adding Hill, we have an offensive, younger, more athletic back up PG. By adding Mahinmi, we have youth and athleticism to upgrade our C/PF spot, but Oberto and Thomas will still have valuable roles next year.

So I think the writer's questions are being answered by the moves so far.

[modmikey]

The Spurs front office is not the problem, and neither is our big three of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. The disadvantage the Spurs operate from is the city they call home. The only way this team ever improves is through luck of the draft, and marginally through free agent signings and trades. You may say that’s the way every team improves in the league. I would argue that the magnet that exists in some large markets plays a bigger role in trades and free agent signings than it does on a winning organization playing in a small market. I can’t think of a free agent who came here who was a big name player and happened to be in the prime of their career; and who wasn’t drafted by the Spurs. Has it happened in the last 15 years? So, we’re left improving the team through draft luck, veteran free agent signings in the twilight of their career, and trades that usually bring veteran free agents in the twilight of their career, or some marginally talented kid who has a good attitude. The bottom line is good players in the prime of their career do not want to play in San Antonio, so you can all but give up any hope of an excellent player wanting to play for the Spurs. We should count our lucky stars that the Duncan’s and Robinsons of the world decided to stay,

[TheMadHatter]

They probably have come close to replicating that success with Scola and Splitter, but have run into serious snags when it came to actually signing them.
But it seems to me that their ability to judge talent is as strong as ever. If Hill plays well, they will be admired for choosing a star from a lower tier mid major program in 2008 as much as they were admired in the past for picking a skinny French kid that many were unfamiliar with.

A year ago, Kobe was saying the same thing about Bynum.

Bynum was a #10 lottery pick. Not a late 1st rounder.

[xtremesteven33]

The Spurs front office is not the problem, and neither is our big three of Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili. The disadvantage the Spurs operate from is the city they call home. The only way this team ever improves is through luck of the draft, and marginally through free agent signings and trades. You may say that’s the way every team improves in the league. I would argue that the magnet that exists in some large markets plays a bigger role in trades and free agent signings than it does on a winning organization playing in a small market. I can’t think of a free agent who came here who was a big name player and happened to be in the prime of their career; and who wasn’t drafted by the Spurs. Has it happened in the last 15 years? So, we’re left improving the team through draft luck, veteran free agent signings in the twilight of their career, and trades that usually bring veteran free agents in the twilight of their career, or some marginally talented kid who has a good attitude. The bottom line is good players in the prime of their career do not want to play in San Antonio, so you can all but give up any hope of an excellent player wanting to play for the Spurs. We should count our lucky stars that the Duncan’s and Robinsons of the world decided to stay,


hate to say it but its true. i havent seen a BIG time superstar player ever say he wanted to play in San Antonio. actually many of them have passed on the oppurtunity to play with us.

[wisnub]

The Spurs not only never pay the luxury tax, that means they get part of the distribution from the teams that do as a windfall. This month they got almost $4,000,000.

But you'll never see them reinvesting that money in players that might send THEM into luxury tax land. Wouldn't be prudent.

I feel the same way too...I know that its business and owner will be happy if he get $4.000.000 income by operating under luxury... I just hope that we got enough firepower for this season considering other teams got much better in terms of supporting casts. On the other hand we just need to depend on luck, health of Big 3, and hold our breath once more during playoffs coz its really possible we got knocked out again.....or simply run out of gas and shoot bricks. It's really good being owner of SA,I wish Im the one.

[Marcus Bryant]

It wasn't just $4 mil. Coupled with the player expense savings from the Scola trade (including the lux tax expense avoided) the Spurs benefited to the tune of $15 mil.

[wisnub]

hate to say it but its true. i havent seen a BIG time superstar player ever say he wanted to play in San Antonio. actually many of them have passed on the oppurtunity to play with us.

:ihit Corey magette is one of them....... and sadly I expect more to come. Are we really that bad as a town...or they afraid of the coach or afraid we might stingy as hell and paiy them low salary or sumthin. I also hate to see this happen, but well it might be a goo dtime to apply law of Detachment (just let go and let universe be what the hell they wanna be) :toast

[xtremesteven33]

:ihit Corey magette is one of them....... and sadly I expect more to come. Are we really that bad as a town...or they afraid of the coach or afraid we might stingy as hell and paiy them low salary or sumthin. I also hate to see this happen, but well it might be a goo dtime to apply law of Detachment (just let go and let universe be what the hell they wanna be) :toast


its quite simple really. People are sheep. they go wherever they are told. whatever the shepard says (ESPN,MAINSTREAN MEDIA) to go they will go.most people are drawn to big cities with big attention. especially players with big egos. very few big name players dont care about the limelight and truly dedicate themselves to winning. San Antonio has been talked about as a boring city over and over again and that really effects the outcome of a players decision. all these ESPN so called analysts are all lobbyists to get the big name players to go to the big market teams so they can make more money. and thats what it comes down to folks really. is money.

[jag]

Now and in the future you need 4 stars, not 3.

Like the Celtics right? Or maybe like the Lakers...

You don't need 4 stars to win titles, you need health and a decent bench.

[xtremesteven33]

Like the Celtics right? Or maybe like the Lakers...

You don't need 4 stars to win titles, you need health and a decent bench.


and a good coach:bking

[MavDynasty]

and a good coach:bking

and role players and ur second scorer has to show up in the 4th quarter

[xtremesteven33]

and role players and ur second scorer has to show up in the 4th quarter


and a good home crowd:downspin:

[spurman20]

Most players go where the money is, and SA has been a great team the last 12 yrs. You dont see great teams sign big time FAs. Ron Artest says he wont play for the MLE even if it means not winning a championship he wants. B Davis wanted to go the the Knicks this summer but took the clips money. Kobe had his chance to got to Chi and turned it down. Do you see La signing big time FAs or Ny? And any FA who wants to go play in some of these big cities is doing so for the wrong reason........not to win so we dont want them. The only FA in recent times who spurned us was Jason Kidd who the spurs wanted to take a discount to play with Tim and so they could keep manu. He being greedy and foolish took the money to reup in Jersey...lost to SA in the finals and now his contract has assured the end of the Dallas mavs. In 2010 players will be lining up to play with us.

[oligarchy]

Most players go where the money is, and SA has been a great team the last 12 yrs. You dont see great teams sign big time FAs. Ron Artest says he wont play for the MLE even if it means not winning a championship he wants. B Davis wanted to go the the Knicks this summer but took the clips money. Kobe had his chance to got to Chi and turned it down. Do you see La signing big time FAs or Ny? And any FA who wants to go play in some of these big cities is doing so for the wrong reason........not to win so we dont want them. The only FA in recent times who spurned us was Jason Kidd who the spurs wanted to take a discount to play with Tim and so they could keep manu. He being greedy and foolish took the money to reup in Jersey...lost to SA in the finals and now his contract has assured the end of the Dallas mavs. In 2010 players will be lining up to play with us.

The Spurs offer wasn't trying to get Kidd to take a discount. They were offering him the max they could pay him, which was only a difference of maybe 7-million of what he signed for. It would be even smaller of a difference because Texas doesn't have state income tax. He lost to the Spurs before his contract :rolleyes: