Summer League Game 3 - Thoughts

[timvp]

The Spurs picked up an impressive summer league victory against a Knicks team that has a lot of experienced NBA talent on it. The Spurs summer league team is comprised of players with almost no NBA experienced yet they were able to pull out a convincing 82-67 victory.

To put it into perspective, six of the seven players who played the most minutes for the Knicks team in this game have more NBA experience on their own than the whole Spurs roster combined. While wins and losses mean little in summer league, at least that shows that the players on the Spurs are giving good effort and are playing well as a team.

The Spurs are now 2-1 in summer league and tomorrow play their fourth game in four nights at 7:30 against the Phoenix Suns.

-Ian Mahinmi played a good second half against the Knicks. He fought for good position and went up strong a few times. He’s rebounding well so far in summer league, especially compared to what we saw in the D-League. Mahinmi’s repertoire with the ball is surprisingly deep and he has shown an ability to score in a variety of ways. However, everything hasn’t been truffles and escargot for Mahinmi so far in summer league. He still needs to add strength because he can get bullied off of the low block. He doesn’t dunk the ball around the rim as much as he should. He’s awkward when the play speeds up and his hands have been very questionable. Defensively he has been decent but not much of a shotblocker or a strong post defender. I think he has room to improve and has played well enough for the Spurs to give him a chance in training camp and preseason to earn a spot in the rotation. That said, another year in Austin may be in the cards if he doesn’t start to show more coordination and fluidity. Against the Knicks he had 14 points and 10 rebounds, so even though he’s not playing great basketball, he’s still producing on the summer league level.

-George Hill has seemingly struggled more and more as this summer league has gone on, however he’s not struggling in the predicted manner. Hill was touted as a scoring shooting guard who needs to learn how to play point guard. So far in summer league, I’ve been impressed by his point guard skills. He’s a good ballhandler, he’s very unselfish, he doesn’t force the issue and he does a good job of running set plays. The problem with this supposed scoring shooting guard is he can’t score. Off the dribble, he hasn’t shown any ability to shoot a midrange jumper. When he gets to the rim, he doesn’t explode toward the rim. Instead, he slowly tries to find cracks that don’t exist against this level of competition. Open jumpers for him have been few and far between, but he hasn’t been able to hit those either. Hill is currently 2-for-26 in the three summer league games and most of his 24 misses haven’t been that close. Obviously, I’m not ready to give up on him but his lack of scoring ability is both surprising and worrisome. Hopefully he can figure it in the remaining games and at least show something to build on going into training camp. The good news is that his defense looks very solid. Against Nate Robinson, the reigning Vegas summer league MVP, Hill held Robinson to eight points on 2-for-10 shooting. Hill also grabbed six more rebounds and now has 21 rebounds in three games. While Hill isn’t playing as well as Spurs fans hoped he would, his defense is strong and his point guard skills are adequate. Now if he can just show an ability to score . . .

-James Gist had yet another good game. In 26 minutes, Gist had ten point, ten rebounds and two assists. I thought he played better in the previous two games but he still exhibited encouraging signs. He’s rebounding the ball very well and his defense has been above average. He contests shots on the inside and is quick enough to play perimeter defense. Offensively, I thought he forced a couple shots this game but his range has been impressive. He can knock down long perimeter jumpers and he looks like he has room to improve on his shooting form. He has a few areas he can work on but overall I’m happy with what I see. Offensively, he can take his time a bit more in the paint and on the other end, he can afford to play a bit more physically. Gist is still a work in progress but for a late second rounder, he’s playing about as well as imaginable.

-Malik Hairston is getting a little bit better each game. He started off poorly but he improved for the third straight game. What I like about him is he’s a strong finisher around the basket who uses his weight and hang time to get off good shots. He also has very good body control in the air. Hairston’s jumper isn't very pretty at this point. He has a low and slow release – and hasn’t shown that he has NBA three-point range yet. Defensively he played much better, even though it appears as if his natural tendency is to be lazy on that end. He seems to be slowly but surely figuring out this level of competition. If he can mix in a few jumpers and show more dedication on defense, he very well could be a player who the Spurs hang on to.

-Tolliver had his third straight good shooting game. He’s still a long shot to make the NBA due to his height (6-foot-8) and limited athleticism but if he can keep stroking the jumpers, he has a chance. Defensively he is very aggressive and attentive, which is mandatory given his limited physical gifts. If he wants to come to training camp for the Spurs, he has definitely earned that opportunity.

-Roger Powell had by far his best game against the Knicks. He started and showed a good scoring ability. Out of the players not already associated with the Spurs, I think Powell is the one with the most NBA potential. I can see him as a deep reserve who can come in and score and play defense. He might need a few more years overseas refining his game but he can play.

-Devin Green shows very good glimpses from time to time. I still don’t think his skillset is transferable to the NBA. Maybe I’m wrong and he can become a poor man’s Kevin Martin but I just don’t see it. He’s a good player to have on this team though because his scoring ability is needed.

Overall, the team on a whole is playing well. Obviously it would be nice to see some of the top end guys playing better but the effort and commitment is apparent from everyone. If Hill and Mahinmi can figure out what works and doesn’t work against this level of talent, the team could really be impressive. Tomorrow the marathon continues . . .

[thekingrobert]

the more I watch the more I'm liking Tolliver, Hairston, and Green. I'm sold on Gist already. As for Hill I would really like to see him in attack mode, it seems he is never trrying to push the ball.

[El Jefe]

You hit the nail on the head with Hill. He was known for his scoring in college, and now he's showing proficiency in defense and rebounding while struggling with his shot.

I'm encouraged by his play so far. If it looks like he has NBA level athleticism and defensive chops, his shot will come around......right?

[usckk]

I'm not worried about Hill's offensive woes thus far into the Summer League. Players, who join the Spurs, tend to become overwhelmed with the vast amount of information that the Spurs coaches implement. Seeing good offensive players turn into bad ones are pretty typical with players that are new the Spurs system, such as Barry, Finley, Udoka, etc. Right now, his game is very mechanical because he's thinking too much. Hill will get better offensively as he gets acclimated. I really think Coach Pop and other Spurs coaches have worked with him a lot already, expecting him to player right away in the regular season. Hill is just too focused on other things right now.

[usckk]

Oh yeah, another thing...Hill doesn't have mechanical problems with his shooting stroke. So we don't have to worry about another Marcus Williams failure again.

[weebo]

Good assessment of the players overall performance thus far. I know its only been three SL games but what worries me the most is Ian's play. Maybe it's because this team was pretty much "thrown together" but he really seems to look uncomfortable at times. GHill, although hasn't been impressive, has played well enough to merit some praise for his defense and rebounding. I still feel the more acclimated he gets to his role the easier the shots will fall.

[koopa]

i'm not worried about hill, he isn't playing with tim, manu and tony yet....... when he gets to play with a player on manu's level the game will be different, shots will be more open more often, same if he's in there with tim........ so i see no point in worrying just yet

[timvp]

You hit the nail on the head with Hill. He was known for his scoring in college, and now he's showing proficiency in defense and rebounding while struggling with his shot.

I'm encouraged by his play so far. If it looks like he has NBA level athleticism and defensive chops, his shot will come around......right?That's the hope. I don't think it's for sure going to happen, though. It's up in the air. It'd be nice for his confidence if he can score at least one time off the dribble. His two baskets so far have been off of open jumpers.

If he can figure out how to score, I could see the rest of his game opening up. He's athletic and he's fast but he needs to use those traits to his advantage. He's used to being able to score at 70-80% effort level. He needs to up that to 100% and really attack.

Defensively he's fine. His point guard skills are fine. Athletically he's fine. Now we just need for him to score a little bit.

[Obstructed_View]

Oh yeah, another thing...Hill doesn't have mechanical problems with his shooting stroke. So we don't have to worry about another Marcus Williams failure again.

Marcus Williams had 23 points and 10 boards for the Clippers...

[completely deck]

That's the hope. I don't think it's for sure going to happen, though. It's up in the air. It'd be nice for his confidence if he can score at least one time off the dribble. His two baskets so far have been off of open jumpers.

If he can figure out how to score, I could see the rest of his game opening up. He's athletic and he's fast but he needs to use those traits to his advantage. He's used to being able to score at 70-80% effort level. He needs to up that to 100% and really attack.

Defensively he's fine. His point guard skills are fine. Athletically he's fine. Now we just need for him to score a little bit.

Well said. I think it's just a matter of adjustment to this level.

[SPURSGOAT]

Great write-up timvp.

I think Hill's scoring will come around... I just think he is a bit flustered with the level of competiton, learning how to play PG, and maybe trying too hard. Especially since he knows Pop is watching in the stands. LOL! His PG abilities, defense, and over all game, besides his scoring, has improved with each SL game. I am beginning to see, regardless of his non-scoring, why Pop likes him...

Ian needs to start dunking the ball and his defense with blocking shots could be better. He has some nice moves and is quick, but he really needs to bulk up. I kind of want to see him on the roster especially since we can use him since we are lacking on bigs as it is. If he plays along side timmy I think he will get better.

I am real happy with what I have seen from Gist so far; heck I am sold on him. I have jumped on the James Gist train. If he keeps this up through training camp and pre-season, then I will be really upset if they send him to the Toros.

Tolliver and Green I like; although Green has not been as impressive as he was that first game. If one of them can make it on the roster, it could maybe help with our scoring droughts.

Hairston played much better in this last game; will see what he does in this next game. Still not sure about him.

Powell played great in this game; don't really know anything about him though... so will have to see.

[JPB]

Ian Mahinmi played a good second half against the Knicks. He fought for good position and went up strong a few times. He’s rebounding well so far in summer league, especially compared to what we saw in the D-League. Mahinmi’s repertoire with the ball is surprisingly deep and he has shown an ability to score in a variety of ways. However, everything hasn’t been truffles and escargot for Mahinmi so far in summer league. He still needs to add strength because he can get bullied off of the low block. He doesn’t dunk the ball around the rim as much as he should. He’s awkward when the play speeds up and his hands have been very questionable. Defensively he has been decent but not much of a shotblocker or a strong post defender. I think he has room to improve and has played well enough for the Spurs to give him a chance in training camp and preseason to earn a spot in the rotation. That said, another year in Austin may be in the cards if he doesn’t start to show more coordination and fluidity. Against the Knicks he had 14 points and 10 rebounds, so even though he’s not playing great basketball, he’s still producing on the summer league level.

Honestly, I don't think you have to be so analitic on Ian's play, specially in SL games.
The important thing, as you mentioned it, is that he brought 14 and 10.

He's been used to a certain level of play in Austin and he may have to adapt.
This a special environement, between players who don't know each other and have to showcase themselves.

Ian never played with really good players who make thing easier and make you better.
What you have to ask yourself is, with players like TD, TP, Manu around him, will Ian be usefull and able to progress ?

I think he could. That's why it wouldn't be a good idea to send him for a second year in Austin, playing on a much lower level where he's not really challenged every game.

What you can also ask yourself is how would Fabio or Kurt do in those SL games ?

[mystargtr34]

After the 0-10 i wasnt overly concerned, but going 1-24 since his first basket in his pro career cant just be dismissed.

Unless the Spurs have told him to concentrate on play making im not sure, but he certaintly isnt looking to score, and when he does, the results havent been that great.

Rebounding wise, and even passing, i think he hasbeen better than i expected. Also defensively i have been impressed - but he needs to start making baskets.

[GSH]

My first boss told me, "It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about you, as long as I know you're doing a good job." I don't think that could ever be more true than trying to play ball for Greg Popovich. We may want to see him score 20 per night, but we all know that Pop wants to see him play defense first and foremost. I think he's done a pretty good job of showing that he got the message. I'm sure that Pop would like to see him scoring 20, but I'm just as sure he didn't expect it.

I didn't see this game, but in the first two it looked like he was having to think about what he was doing, which was running the point. (Which is understandable.) That's not the best mental state for a shooter. Some of his misses were the result of the competition, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination. And we know the kid can shoot. I just think he's working on the mechanics of being a PG, and he looks... mechanical.

I don't think he's ready to run the point in the NBA yet, but that's hardly surprising. I think he will smooth out some, with repetition. And when he isn't having to think so much, the open shots will start falling. The big question is whether he will be able to create his own against NBA defenders. But we're not going to know about that until he can get into some kind of comfort zone.

I'd love to see him get to play the 2 for a while, and just light it up.

[AusSpursFan]

great commentary, agree with just about everything. Gist has been more than I expected and Hill has been somewhat disappointing, but the athleticism and skill is there, he just seems to be trying to force things. Hopefully after a couple more games he will relax a little. Mahinimi has shown some good signs, but as you said he just needs to man up and be a bit more aggresive, he doesn't look like he is lacking size. Finally I like Green, he has shown some great glimpses on offense, but I do have a soft spot for streaky guards.

[Bartleby]

Marcus Williams had 23 points and 10 boards for the Clippers...

On 6/11 shooting from the field, which brought his summer league FG% up to a whopping 29%.

[ManuTastic]

-George Hill has seemingly struggled more and more as this summer league has gone on, however he’s not struggling in the predicted manner. Hill was touted as a scoring shooting guard who needs to learn how to play point guard. So far in summer league, I’ve been impressed by his point guard skills. He’s a good ballhandler, he’s very unselfish, he doesn’t force the issue and he does a good job of running set plays. The problem with this supposed scoring shooting guard is he can’t score. Off the dribble, he hasn’t shown any ability to shoot a midrange jumper. When he gets to the rim, he doesn’t explode toward the rim. Instead, he slowly tries to find cracks that don’t exist against this level of competition. Open jumpers for him have been few and far between, but he hasn’t been able to hit those either. Hill is currently 2-for-26 in the three summer league games and most of his 24 misses haven’t been that close. Obviously, I’m not ready to give up on him but his lack of scoring ability is both surprising and worrisome. Hopefully he can figure it in the remaining games and at least show something to build on going into training camp. The good news is that his defense looks very solid. Against Nate Robinson, the reigning Vegas summer league MVP, Hill held Robinson to eight points on 2-for-10 shooting. Hill also grabbed six more rebounds and now has 21 rebounds in three games. While Hill isn’t playing as well as Spurs fans hoped he would, his defense is strong and his point guard skills are adequate. Now if he can just show an ability to score . . .



Hmmm, so Hill is... Jacque Vaughn II?
Thanks for the write-up, Timvp.

[mrspurs]

powell is the only one who looks like he wants to play in the nba...the rest look like a ymca pick up game....ive got what i expected from all the names listed..(nada) ian is quite a disappointment, the guy should be ashamed of himself...cant hold onto the ball(like fab), scrared when he grabs the ball(like fab), missing easy uncontested shots that should easily be slam dunks(once again like fab) ian=malik rose..............only taller and cheaper...the dude isnt ready for the nba imo so far...someone needs to light a fire under this guys feet, maybe he will move them in the right direction......its the SL so i know not to expect much...but this ian is really making me wonder if ian, is the guy ppl. should be saying we are wasting time on.......and hill by far isnt ready...if this is his play come nba start...look for jacque tobe tonys backup again...honestly i wouldnt even use hill as a third backup just yet....

[wildbill2u]

While I agree with most of TIMVP's post on the positive things he's seen in our players, I'm somewhat more pessimistic about the negative things he touched on, simply because we are apparently looking to depend on some of these rookies and Ian in the big show.

If Hill isn't ready we go with Vaughn. I'd hoped for a better upgrade at backup PG this year and will be disappointed if Hill doesn't make a big improvement. He's a step slower than his competition. He gets a good first step separation sometimes, but might as well forget about driving into the paint in the NBA if he keeps letting his defender catch up and cover him so he can't finish.

Mahimi stills looks raw but promising. Can he step up to the big show and give us the inside presence in scoring and defense? We didn't look at front line free agents much so apparently the FO must think he can or we'll be back to the same old bunch. Big risk with big upside.

Gist looks like a keeper. I saw him really sky for a rebound and thought that we haven't had a guy who could do that in a long time. (I reject James White because that's all he could do, a one dimensional player) And he has an attitude of toughness about him. He laid a pick on a guard who was defending against Hill bringing the ball downcourt that had to hurt. Again, that's something we've been missing except for Thomas. And he may have an outside shot to develop.

[VaSpursFan]

when you're thinking on the basketball court instead of using your natural action and reaction instincts, you tighten up. i don't care how good you are. i think Hill is so focused on what to do in his new role as a pg that the things he does well are becoming more difficult. once he can relax and just play his game and get into a rhythm, he'll be fine. right now, he's going through some confidence issues as he transitions into a new role.

[Solid D]

I watched most of the 3rd game and really felt like George Hill looked more comfortable. His transition D is excellent and not labored at all. He just gets there and quickly. He stayed in front of Nate very well and he "thought through" screens, moving and anticipating with smooth ease. Hill really has a retriever-like nose for the ball. Half of Nate's points came when Hill was switched to another player...once he was busy being thrown out of the way by Balkman down on the baseline. Three of the SL players exhibited the Spurs' defensive switching that the Spurs expect - Hill, Gist and Mahinmi. Mahinmi does try to protect the paint. Two examples, Hill rotated over from the backside to tie-up Hunter when Hill noticed Hunter had worked free and was turning to score. One time, Gist covered for Hill who got caught looking while Nate cut back door on him. Gist slid over and met Nate going to the rim.

Offensively, I have two points to make regarding Mahinmi. The first is, Ian, get your hands up and show you are open when you cut to the basket. That is so important to the passer to help them notice an open man. That is one thing that Tim and Oberto do so very well. Secondly, Ian needs to help the play initiation out a bit more, timewise. Several times, Hill had to wait too long on Ian to get out and set the screen. It may be that Ian was waiting on another player to start the progression. Of course, Hill was very deliberate in walking the ball up, but often-times the play didn't get underway until 12 -14 seconds remained on the shot clock.

Hill can't shoot. I don't know him at all, so I don't know why other than the usual "confidence" factor. Let's hope that changes by the time he gets to camp.

Gist is a keeper. He is a suitable replacement for Horry's slot, so start the development now. Notice I didn't say an Horry replacement because Robert brings so many intelligent things to the game that make things happen. But, Gist looks to be a 4/3 more like a taller Malik Rose-type player.

Those are the 3 players who look to help the Spurs this season.

[Obstructed_View]

On 6/11 shooting from the field, which brought his summer league FG% up to a whopping 29%.

So Marcus Williams >>>>>>> George Hill.

[usckk]

Marcus Williams had 23 points and 10 boards for the Clippers...

True, Marcus always had the potential to do that every once in a while. He was the same in Arizona. There were times when he scored 30+ points, carrying most of the offensive load for the team, but there were also other times when he went 1-8.

However, his mechanical problems will always catch up with him. He'll never be able to shoot consistently. Marion is one of the few that has an obvious shooting flaw and yet, makes a bunch of them.

As for Hill, I think his offense will really start coming into shape in preseason. Right now, I think he's just totally focused in distributing and defending.

[Chen]

hopefully, hill can still guard the opposite guy decently.

even his shot selection and FGs is really really terrible.

[rAm]

All good points, and a great analysis of the Hill/Mahinmi situation.


God it's good to have these back.

[SpursChampsIII]

I'm pretty sure that Hill and Mahinmi will be on the opening day roster. I think Pop might let Gist spend some time at Austin until he feels that he is ready. Hairston is NBDL material...I doubt we see him in an NBA uniform anytime soon.

I still don't think Hill was the right choice at #26. When pick #26 came around and Donte Green was still there, I thought that was a no-brainer. Then you could have taken a run at Dooling for the backup PG. Instead of Hill, Mason, Gist, you could have been looking at Green, Mason, Dooling, and Gist.

I'm not giving up on Hill, but I think we had better options. I hope he proves me wrong. However, if he ends up a dud, somebody in management needs to answer for this.

[Spurtacus]

Props to timvp for the analysis.

As long as Hill maintains confidence his shot will come back to him. Props to him for focusing on defense and learning to play the point.

I still hope Gist, Hill, and Mahinmi are on the opening day roster.

[jayc23]

Hill was toted even in high school as being one of the most disciplined shooters around... he would hit un real shots being double teamed, fade aways, and 1's while getting flagrantly fouled... dont see too many 4 points plays from 2 pointers very often do you?... I am stunned at his performance .. I dont care WHAT league you play in... Hill went at it with Yemi Ogunoye, a Defensive specialist who had few offensive tools but was considered nearly NBA possible just for his defense.. a 6'9 incredibly athletic forward with a massive wingspan, Ghist athleticism with expoential defensive prowess.. and while Hill had to adjust he hit amazing shots and got to the rim.. and honestly I am yet to see a defender in summer league better than Yemi Ogunoye