Ginobili!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You know it's coming, discussing All-Star reserves.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

whoa!

Kenny, Charles, and Magic all picked Ginobili.

Folks, it could happen. :elephant

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hell Yeah!!! Gino For All Star Game!!!

[whottt]

Magic, Kenny, and Charles Barkley all had Ginobili on the All Star team.

Pop says he's an All Star.

Doug Collins says he's an All Star.

Kevin Willis(and his 59 years of NBA experience) says he'd rather watch Manu play than any other player in the NBA. Drob says he's the most fun to watch....



But that means exactly shit because Segu(and some others I can't remember right now) says he isn't.

[SpursFanInAustin]

Barkley also said he's not going to Denver if Manu isn't on the team.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Sequ can lick my hairy nutsack for all I care!!! MANU SHOULD GO PERIOD!!!!

(MEANT WITH ALL THE LOVE SEQU!!! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA)http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smiafro.gif

[exstatic]

I've heard also that if Kobe can't play, and the coaches pick CWebb, that Parker may squeek in, too. They wouldn't pick two Kings (Bibby), because they aren't playing that well, plus there is the "international" factor. ;)

Edit: Actually, if the coaches pick CWebb, ther almost certaily WILL be two Kings, as I think that Brad Miller is a lock as second center. They won't put a third King (Bibby) on the squad.

[mattyc]

Barkley also said he's not going to Denver if Manu isn't on the team.
:lol Barkley comes up with some corkers sometimes.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I've been saying for about a year and a half now that Manu NEEDS to be in the All-Star game.

He would turn that game on its ear. Outside of Rafer and Jamaal Tinsley, Manu's probably got the most "street" in his game out of anyone else in the league. He'll go nuts in a game like that, and probably make a damn good run at game MVP.

[carolgino]

if i were the coach.... :lol :lol :lol

does it depend on the decision of the ASG' coach(Pop?) or all the coaches in nba?

[exstatic]

I think the coaches vote for players in their conference. I know that it's just not up to the conference ASG coach.

[Kori Ellis]

The 30 head coaches will vote for the remaining members of the All-Star teams in their respective conferences, and their selections will be announced on Tuesday, February 8. Coaches must vote for seven players in order of preference but are not allowed to vote for players from their team. The selections must include two guards, two forwards and a center. Two other players are chosen regardless of position. Also, if any player cannot participate in the All-Star Game, NBA Commissioner David Stern will select a replacement after the coaches select reserves.

[carolgino]

i know,thanks,Kori :smokin

[SMLT]

I just love manu and tony (both deserve a AS spot in my mind the way they play in the Spurs' system) but hey, Steve Nash and Ray Allen MUST be there !!!

If they pick two guards, two forwards and one center... and they will, Steve and Ray will be the ones... And they deserve their ASG... Sorry for Tony and Manu.

Too many great players on the west... That's the point...

[travis2]

I just love manu and tony (both deserve a AS spot in my mind the way they play in the Spurs' system) but hey, Steve Nash and Ray Allen MUST be there !!!

If they pick two guards, two forwards and one center... and they will, Steve and Ray will be the ones... And they deserve their ASG... Sorry for Tony and Manu.

Too many great players on the west... That's the point...

AND two regardless of position. Seven total.

[Obvious]

Magic, Kenny, and Charles Barkley all had Ginobili on the All Star team.
Pop says he's an All Star.
Doug Collins says he's an All Star.
Kevin Willis(and his 59 years of NBA experience) says he'd rather watch Manu play than any other player in the NBA.
Drob says he's the most fun to watch....
Game over!!! :elephant :elephant :elephant

[Jimcs50]

I have been telling you guys since the Phoenix game, Manu is an All Star.

I will bet anyone any amount of money that he makes the team.

Any takers?

[smeagol]

Sequ, I think Jim is talking to you . . .

[IX_Equilibrium]

Manu is still a well kept secret to most fairweather NBA fans

[Sec24Row7]

If Manu gets in 1 All Star Game, I don't people will ever give him another one off.

Kobe, T-Mac, Stoudamire, and Garnett should be DROOLING at the thought of having him in that game and finishing sick passes.

[Frenchise player]

I have been telling you guys since the Phoenix game, Manu is an All Star.

I will bet anyone any amount of money that he makes the team.

Any takers?
yeah and you were telling us a month ago that Parker won't improve, and that we might trade him and start Beno, stop quoting yourself, and see how wrong you can be sometimes.

[exstatic]

Frenchise, Jim just hates Parker because his boy Francis is Tony's bitch. Don't pay him no nevermind.

[whottt]

Manu is still a well kept secret to most fairweather NBA fans

Actually, what I've seen is that most NBA fans do get pretty excited by his game, even fans that hate the Spurs.

Even analysts that are notoriously anti-spur, like SASSSSSSSSS like Manu's games.

I see Manu's biggest detractors here on this forum. I don't know if they are trying to make themselves look credible and non-homer by hating on their own, or what...sadly those fans have missed the boat and are totally out of touch with the common opinion...not to mention that their talent evaluation abilities are suspect...


But the fact is...the harshest criticisms of Manu that I have heard, have been made by Spurfans.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Actually, what I've seen is that most NBA fans do get pretty excited by his game, even fans that hate the Spurs.

Even analysts that are notoriously anti-spur, like SASSSSSSSSS like Manu's games.

I see Manu's biggest detractors here on this forum. I don't know if they are trying to make themselves look credible and non-homer by hating on their own, or what...sadly those fans have missed the boat and are totally out of touch with the common opinion...not to mention that their talent evaluation abilities are suspect...


But the fact is...the harshest criticisms of Manu that I have heard, have been made by Spurfans.
AMEN!

[Extra Stout]

I see Manu's biggest detractors here on this forum. I don't know if they are trying to make themselves look credible and non-homer by hating on their own, or what...sadly those fans have missed the boat and are totally out of touch with the common opinion...not to mention that their talent evaluation abilities are suspect...But the fact is...the harshest criticisms of Manu that I have heard, have been made by Spurfans.I think Manu hatred corresponds to Tony love in a similar way that other fans have Rasho hatred and Malik love. It has nothing to do with basketball and has everything to do with which player gets the loins burning hotter.

I mean, jeez, if not for having a crush on one of them, or associating one or the other with national pride, why should a Spur fan passionately prefer one and bash the other? It's having both alongside Timmy that makes life as a Spurs fan so great.

[TMTTRIO]

It's funny when you start to read other fans boards on wanting to trade their good players for Manu like I've seen trade Finley for Ginobili to the Mavs.

[ALVAREZ6]

It's funny when you start to read other fans boards on wanting to trade their good players for Manu like I've seen trade Finley for Ginobili to the Mavs.
Ginobili > Finley

[2centsworth]

It's funny when you start to read other fans boards on wanting to trade their good players for Manu like I've seen trade Finley for Ginobili to the Mavs.

Would the spurs let go of ginobilli for Nowitski? Probably not, it's hard to put a value on winners.

[Frenchise player]

Would the spurs let go of ginobilli for Nowitski? Probably not, it's hard to put a value on winners.
Well, Nowitski it's the best international player in the NBA, I will give Tony or Manu + any other player of the Spurs except Duncan.
Dirk is very near of Duncan's level of play.

[ALVAREZ6]

Dirk and Duncan have different styles.

Duncan likes playing in the low post, and Dirk likes shooting the ball.

Dirk is pretty much a tall SF/SG.
He's very coordinated for a guy of his size.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm with whott, all the hate's here on this thread.

Go check out the various fantasy basketball bulletin boards, Manu's one of the apex players in the league. You can get a good handle on the fans' perspective at some of those places, and Manu's mentioned in the same breathe as Kobe, Tmac, etc.

[whottt]

Manu is the only SG that ranks in the top 10 in the WC in:
PPG
PPS
ADJ FG%
FG%
3P%
FT%
Rebounds
Assists
Assist to TO Ratio
Steals
Steals to TO Ratio
Blocks
Blocks to Foul Ratio

Like most Manu fans say...it's not any one thing that makes him an AS, it's his all around game and balls to the wall style of play.

Ironically the biggest knock on Manu is often his lack of PPG...

Yet Manu makes more points per shot than any guard in the NBA. Period.

Manu is the best all around 2 Guard in the WC and probably in the NBA.

He's better than TMAC that's for sure.

[Nikos]

Manu is playing his sidekick role better than Tmac is playing his leading role. He obviously is not the better individual player and talent.

[whottt]

Manu is playing his sidekick role better than Tmac is playing his leading role. He obviously is not the better individual player and talent.

The only thing TMac does better than Manu is take 29 shots per game.


I'd be willing to bet what ever amount of money you want to bet that if you took TMac off the Rockets and replaced him with Manu, the Rockets would be a better team.

When you lose 19 in a row you are automatically disqualified from any debate concerning the best anything anywhere...

Prove me wrong...start with finding another Super Star that has lost 19 in a row, under any circumstances.

[Nikos]

Unfortunely many of the NBA 'Stars' today fall into that Jordan mentaility, and all of them pretty much fail. They cannot handle all the possesions, all the shots, and still make their teams efficient. And when the pressure mounts and expectations fall short, those players tend to 'tank'. Its sad that players like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and others have fallen into that 'quitter' mode, but thats what happens today in the NBA at times.

The idea of having a set of role players does not always exist on a lot of teams like it used to in the NBA. Now players are more athletic and try to do a lot more individually. If a franchise has a great scoring talent, they will let that player handle the ball as much as Michael Jordan did. Once the player fails to improve the team or make them a playoff contender single handedly (like Jordan could barely do himself) -- then they QUIT. They cannot handle it anymore.

It is exactly this type of INDIVIDUALISM that tends to scew a players value and ability to want to adapt into a system. Instead that so called 'franchise player' would rather BE THE MAN on a poor team, and wait for the pieces to come around him as opposed to mending into a second option on a GREAT team.

It would seem that many players in this league would rather be the MAN on poor teams, and would love nothing more than to simply have great role players plugged around them in hopes of acquiring a title. But unfortunely those situations are not going to work out for most of these so called 'franchise players'.

McGrady is a better player than Manu, he is more talented, and would likely produce a decent amount more in pretty much any comparable situation. He may be a quitter on a bad team, but we also have not seen Manu lead a bad team in the NBA either.

The only thing you can really say is that Manu fills his role better than McGrady filled his as an Orlando Magic player. Isn't it obvious that McGrady is the better individual PLAYER than Manu? Do you really think McGrady would not be a dominant sidekick with Duncan? He won't look like Jordan alongside Duncan, but he will still put up good numbers and help make his team more dominant, with Duncan leading the way.

Individualism today in the NBA sort of scews the perception of some players. Some feel they can carry a franchise like MJ, but obviously cannot. Some get impatient if they do not see improvement around them. Some won't adjust to secondary roles, and rather lose on a team as long as they are getting their PPG.

We do not know how McGrady would react as a Spur. We will find out how he grows as a leader as the season progesses, but as a player of course he is better than Manu.

[Jimcs50]

yeah and you were telling us a month ago that Parker won't improve, and that we might trade him and start Beno, stop quoting yourself, and see how wrong you can be sometimes.


I never said he would not improve, I said that Beno is going to be so great that we can not keep both, and that in another 1-2 yrs, we should trade TP so we can get something great for him like a real good center or a good backup PF.

Pay attention!!!

[whottt]

No, I don't think McGrady would be as good alongside Duncan as Manu...

What your analysis overlooks...TMac is a fucking dumbass and a self centered shithead.

No I don't think Manu would quit...and there's a very good reason you have never seen Manu on as shitty a team as TMac...because Manu himself keeps a team from being totally shitty. Tmac doesn't. He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesnt.

Perhaps if TMac didn't have a propensity for quitting he wouldn't lose 19 in a row.

And don't forget TMac's numerous dumbass statements...like the one that caused his team to get it's ass kicked in the playoffs.

[whottt]

Nikos, I am trying to crystalize the essence of TMac for you because I just don't think you get it.

The Orlando Magic were the worst team in the NBA last season. TMac was their best player.

Now how many players of Super Star Status can say they ever played for the worst team in the NBA? A team that went on the second longest losing streak in NBA history?

TMac lives on that Island of suck all by himself.

In a fucking nutshell...the Magic were the worst team in the NBA with TMac...are you saying they couldn't have done that without him?

Exactly what did he do for that team last season? Nothing. They were the worst team in the NBA with him.

And it's an insult to Manu to say he would lay down and quit like TMac did. TMac is a quitter, Manu isn't. It's just that simple.

You don't assume shitheadedness on Manu's part to defend TMac....TMac is the guy that drug it down a level....that's part of why he's not as good IMO.

[Nikos]

I never said Manu was a quitter. All I meant was that we do not know if Manu could lead the Magic to a better win total than McGrady did in his tenure.

McGrady quit, and thats a sign of bad leadership. Manu came into a winning system, with a franchise player in Duncan. All he had to do was fill a role. And he has been doing it better and better every damn season. Credit to him for that. He is an intelligent, hard working support player. A winner in general, unselfish, and a champion.

But that does not mean as a player he is better than Tmac. It does not mean that if Tmac were a Spur he would quit.

You seem to forget being stupid does equal 'sucking'. Tmac may be a quitter and not too bright, but he did lead his team into the playoffs one season with average support. Who cares if he assumed his team was going to win? Does that still take away from the fact his team got into the playoffs and played the Pistons tough?

[Guru of Nothing]

Man, it's nice to read the discussion /debate between two of my favorite posters on the subject of basketball.

So far, I like Whottt's argument better (by a little), but Nikos is kicking Whottt's ass in the avatar category.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu>Tmac

[Nikos]

Whott is basically putting words into my mouth and twisting my words around.

All I said is Tmac is a better player than Manu. I agreed Tmac did quit last season. I agree that Manu is not a quitter and great role player, and even a solid leader.

But the fact is Manu has not gotten the chance to lead an NBA team, and we do not know exactly how he would do as a team leader. He would not quit, but would he really generate more wins than Tmac did over his tenure in Orlando?

What part of whott's argument are you in such accordance with?

[Guru of Nothing]

What part of whott's argument are you in such accordance with?

I'm not sure precisely, but if I may put words into Whottt's mouth, I agree that Tmac plays for a paycheck and adoration while Manu plays for a paycheck, adoration and a win.

Bottom line, basketball is sport, and like any other sport we like to break individuals down by their talent and their heart. Manu obviously plays the game with more heart than Tmac, so much more that we can question with straight faces his ability vs. the likes of Tmac.

Not that you did not know this already.

Apologies if I am not making a point.

[Nikos]

I guess we are just focusing on different angles of the argument.

Tmac and Manu have been in different situations. The bottom line is Tmac is a better basketball talent, and player. Manu is better at filling his role (if that makes sense).

Tmac did quit, but he has also led his team into the playoffs twice before he decided to 'give up'. That counts for something.

[ALVAREZ6]

Nikos, T-mac is a better athlete maybe, but not a better player.

Better player on the streets maybe, not on an NBA court.

On an NBA court, T-mac is just more athletic, but he doesn't have the brains or heart to be a "player"

[Rick Von Braun]

But the fact is Manu has not gotten the chance to lead an NBA team, and we do not know exactly how he would do as a team leader. He would not quit, but would he really generate more wins than Tmac did over his tenure in Orlando?

What part of whott's argument are you in such accordance with?I think that is the weak part of your argument as well. Since we don't know, then we can not make a comparison one way or the other, right?

[Nikos]

I guess the argument is weak then? But I dont see how you can form an argument that is not just as weak?

Do you feel Manu could lead an NBA team to the playoffs (with mediocre) support, as Tmac did for two years?

If the answer is no, then you surely can understand my argument.

And give me a real answer RVB, when it comes down to it, if you had to choose one player to start an NBA team, would you take McGrady or Manu?

[picnroll]

If TMac had been on the Argentinian team rather than Manu do you think Argentina would still have come home with the gold?

[ALVAREZ6]

Nikos...

Yes Mcgrady went to the play offs with the magic....but what happened when they started the season like 1-19?

Manu would not allow his team to be 1-19 to start a season.

[Nikos]

What we know:

Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.

Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?

[ALVAREZ6]

What we know:

Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.

Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?
Yes.
I have an Argentinean gut.

[Guru of Nothing]

What we know:

Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.

Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?

I think it's very possible that Manu could lead a mediocre team to the playoffs - in the Eastern conference.

[Rick Von Braun]

I guess the argument is weak then? But I dont see how you can form an argument that is not just as weak?

Do you feel Manu could lead an NBA team to the playoffs (with mediocre) support, as Tmac did for two years?

If the answer is no, then you surely can understand my argument.

And give me a real answer RVB, when it comes down to it, if you had to choose one player to start an NBA team, would you take McGrady or Manu?I am just pointing out the flaw in your logic, that's all.

You are correct, both sides of the argument are just as weak, because it is based on speculation.

I would speculate that a team with Manu as the go-to guy would not have lost 19 games in a row, or it would not have finished last. But this is just speculative.

"If you have to chose one player..." aahhhh... the question. My answer would always be: it depends. It depends on the context, the players available, your goals, etc. etc.

It amazes me that so many people put so much emphasis on individualism when the truth of the matter is that you have to build a team. The faith of the team is determined by how the group is assembled, how they interact, and how they play together. The sum of the parts < the whole.

I thought this concept was already carved in stone since we lost both in the WBC and the Olympics, but apparently it is not.

[ALVAREZ6]

The faith of the team is determined by how the group is assembled, how they interact, and how they play together. The sum of the parts < the whole.

I thought this concept was already carved in stone since we lost both in the WBC and the Olympics, but apparently it is not.
Very well said.
*clap-clap-clap*

[Nikos]

I understand this concept RVB very well. You are stating things I know very well. I was actually happy for the Argentinian team, almost as if I was cheering for my own country -- because they play the team game to perfection.

However this is not my argument right now.

Bottom line is, do you think Manu is a better player than Tmac? Forget context. If you had to run a franchise and did not know ANY of your surrounding talent, would you take Manu or Tmac?

Would you take Manu over KG, Tmac, and other players with that type of talent?

Just answer that question, because everything you stated is obvious.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What we know:

Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.

Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?

What we know? Manu has led an Argentinian team filled with 4 NBA role players and a mediocre supporting cast to a World Championship and a Gold Medal.

I feel fairly confident saying Tmac in the same position as Manu, when faced with Team USA in the Olympics, probably would have scored 40 but his team would have lost by 35.

I can't believe we're even talking about this. Tell you what, you can take TMac and his fantasy stats, I'll take the guy who's a winner and kick your ass ten times out of ten.

[picnroll]

I would want my team to go to war (last quarter, seventh game, NBA finals) with Manu more than with TMac.

[Guru of Nothing]

Hmm. I think this thread says far more about TMac than it does Manu.

Basically, we are (collectively) saying that Tmac is a role-player disguised as a superstar.

Ironically, TD is a superstar disguise as a role player, thanks in no small part to the play of Manu and TP.

[picnroll]

McGrady may win it at the end in a tight game but if he does it will be with hot shooting like he beat the Spurs earlier this year. Manu will beat you with shooting or driving to the basket or getting the steal, or getting the offensive rebound, or diving on the floor t5o make a save, or taking the charge. McGrady's play is passionless, lackadaisacal, uninspiring. Manu's is passionate, inspiring,. Difference between a loser and a winner.

[Rick Von Braun]

I understand this concept RVB very well. You are stating things I know very well. I was actually happy for the Argentinian team, almost as if I was cheering for my own country -- because they play the team game to perfection.

However this is not my argument right now.

Bottom line is, do you think Manu is a better player than Tmac? Forget context. If you had to run a franchise and did not know ANY of your surrounding talent, would you take Manu or Tmac?

Would you take Manu over KG, Tmac, and other players with that type of talent?

Just answer that question, because everything you stated is obvious.If my observation is quite obvious, then why you used an obviously flawed logic in the first place? http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

You implied in your question that KG and TMac are worth the same, something that I strongly disagree.

I am not avoiding your question. Just to clarify my point, Manu is not the best player in the NBA. I would pick KG over Manu in 1 nanosecond. They are on completely different levels. I would also pick Nowitzki, Shaq and many others over Manu. To give a less drastic example, I would pick Lebron James, a player that is not a super star like KG, but with a huge talent and upside (sorry ducks) over him.

On the other hand, I am not so sure about TMac. There is something obviously flawed with him that doesn't feel right. I don't think he is a winner, he just doesn't have it. Same thing could be said of Vince Carter. Just my opinion though.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gif

[Kori Ellis]

McGrady isn't normal in the head.

As a rookie, he wanted to quit because he didn't think he was talented.

Last season, he wanted to quit because he said he couldn't score against the zone.

This season, he said the coaching staff wants him to try to get his teammates involved in the offense and he said that he's "not into that".

[T Park]

He needs to take his meds.

I think hes Bi polar.

[SuperManu!!!]

I am not avoiding your question. Just to clarify my point, Manu is not the best player in the NBA. I would pick KG over Manu in 1 nanosecond. They are on completely different levels. I would also pick Nowitzki, Shaq and many others over Manu. To give a less drastic example, I would pick Lebron James, a player that is not a super star like KG, but with a huge talent and upside (sorry ducks) over him.


You can't compare Manu to Shaq, KG or Nowitzki. Two totally different game positions!!! Compare Duncan to KG but not Manu. :pctoss
Manu isn't the best player of the NBA, but he is the most fun to watch. :spin

If this thead continues, soon you will be asking "Would you trade the Payton Manning for Manu????" "Can Manu be USA president???" :lol

[Nikos]

RVB

Personally I am insulted that you recite about the 'team play' of Argentina. If you don't know that I am a huge fan of Argentina and Manu and what they stand for then I am honestly insulted. I guess I do not make my point clear enough the past few years. I love the way they play.

But that does not mean that I think Manu is neccesarily a better player than Tmac. I like the qualities he stands for as a player and a person more than what Tmac has showed, I admire his leadership -- but that does not mean he is a more accomplished NBA player.

We are arguing about semantics here.

It seems to me that people seem to dismiss Carter and McGrady too quickly because they quit on their teams. Yes it is a bad fault, but it does not mean the player is not a very good player. I almost get the impression from you that any player who cannot lead his team far in the playoffs should not be considered a winner AKA Tmac, and VC. Or better yet, anyone who is somewhat selfish or underacheiving based on being overhyped is automatically a much worse player than they actually are.

I made a mistake to lump KG in here, but some people on this board diss KG BIG TIME, and almost lump him with someone like McGrady. Imagine if the Wolves or Lakers missed the playoffs this season, how much scolding Kobe or Garnett would get? Would you scold them too for quiting and not leading their team? Many on this board would.

Who do you feel is the better player RVB? Who would you take if you had to start a franchise?

Please do not recite the same callous speeches over and over. Who is the better NBA PLAYER?

[Nikos]

If my observation is quite obvious, then why you used an obviously flawed logic in the first place?

Your telling me that because Manu has not gotten the chance to lead his own team that he is just as likely to lead a mediocre supporting cast into the playoffs as McGrady did.

Correct?

I am asking you who is the better NBA player? Not the better teamatte or leader of Olympic play. Keep in my mind that USA did destroy Argentina one game in the 03 qualifiers as well (with Tmac playing).

Just answer that question, because your post about TEAM play is frankly insulting considering its directed at me of all people.

I would think you would understand that I appreciate team play, but at some point I cannot say that Manu is truly the better NBA player than Tmac right now.

He has a bit more to prove don't you think?

[Nikos]

What we know? Manu has led an Argentinian team filled with 4 NBA role players and a mediocre supporting cast to a World Championship and a Gold Medal.

I feel fairly confident saying Tmac in the same position as Manu, when faced with Team USA in the Olympics, probably would have scored 40 but his team would have lost by 35.

I can't believe we're even talking about this. Tell you what, you can take TMac and his fantasy stats, I'll take the guy who's a winner and kick your ass ten times out of ten.

Manu's Argentinian team also got destroyed once by USA, a game in which Tmac played in the 2003 Olympic Qualfiers. So what does that mean?

The point is Manu has not proven he can carry a team in the NBA to the playoffs with mediocre support. You cannot just dismiss what McGrady did in 01-03 just because he flaked out in 2003-04.

I repeat, I love what Manu brings to the table. I value all of it. I love the Argentinain team's heart and team play. I think that is what basketball is about.

But at the same time I cannot say Tmac is an inferior player to Manu in the NBA. If you want to compare the team element and brains then of course Manu would win. He fills his role better than McGrady is filling his. That comes with the territory for McGrady because he is expected to do a lot as a team leader -- something he is not ready for yet.

All in all I think it is more likely that Tmac can hold up a mediocre team in the NBA over an 82game season better than Manu can.

Tmac would not put up Jordan numbers as Duncan sidekick, but I would think he could do a pretty good job if given the chance to commit to it.

But then again, there is always what ifs.....You can always just say..."Ehhh Tmac sucks, he can't even lead his team to 20 wins...." But he has led his team to the playoffs a few times. Should that just be dismissed completely when judging an NBA player?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Qualfiers. So what does that mean?

Not a damn thing. Lots of people are good when it doesn't matter (like the qualifiers). See McGrady for one, or our favorite Turk Hedo frozen in the corner vs. LA Turkoglu.

That's the whole point. TMac can put up big numbers and win games in qualifers, or in December, when it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

When the chips are down in the post season, Manu wants the ball. TMac wants to go golfing.

[SequSpur]

Tmac is one of the best players in the NBA. If he had a second star like Shaq, Duncan, or KG, dude would win all kinds of championships.

[Solid D]

I'd take Manu over T-Mac. Manu plays better defense and he's team-first. Manu cannot score like T-Mac, but what a great teammate and with Manu...everyone keeps their heads up, their hands ready, and their heads in the game.

[timvp]

The only real flaw in Manu's game is he can't play more than 30 minutes per game. He just doesn't have the stamina to go out there and give you 35-40 solid minutes over an 82 game schedule.

That is why every GM in the league would take TMac over Ginobili if you had to build a team around one of them. You can't really build a team around a guy who plays a little over half the game, no matter how good he is.

But given that, if I was going into game seven of the NBA Finals, Ginobili is one of the first players in the league I'd want on my team.

[SequSpur]

I'd take Manu over T-Mac. Manu plays better defense and he's team-first. Manu cannot score like T-Mac, but what a great teammate and with Manu...everyone keeps their heads up, their hands ready, and their heads in the game.


You can't be serious. Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.

[cqsallie]

Why is there an argument regarding Manu? The Spurs have the best record in the NBA, yet they have only one representative on the All-Star team?
Of course, you all must realize that something is terribly wrong about this whole thing. I could go online and vote for Tim, Manu, Tony, Rasho every hour on the hour. Doesn't mean they're the best; just means I like them personally.
That's what's horribly wrong with fan selection of the All-Star team. Think, if you will, about the selection of the Houston Rockets center who is honestly not that great. He's tall, but not that good.
We could allow fans to vote once only. The next group of voters would be the sports writers. The next group of voters would be the coaches. You wouldn't have a billion votes for any player.
What the hell do we fans know, anyway? We know who we like, but we're gonna vote according to who we like - and this would not necessarily mean the best. God forgive me, but I actually cast about a dozen votes for Rasho....

[Rick Von Braun]

RVB

Personally I am insulted that you recite about the 'team play' of Argentina. If you don't know that I am a huge fan of Argentina and Manu and what they stand for then I am honestly insulted. I guess I do not make my point clear enough the past few years. I love the way they play.

But that does not mean that I think Manu is neccesarily a better player than Tmac. I like the qualities he stands for as a player and a person more than what Tmac has showed, I admire his leadership -- but that does not mean he is a more accomplished NBA player.

We are arguing about semantics here.

It seems to me that people seem to dismiss Carter and McGrady too quickly because they quit on their teams. Yes it is a bad fault, but it does not mean the player is not a very good player. I almost get the impression from you that any player who cannot lead his team far in the playoffs should not be considered a winner AKA Tmac, and VC. Or better yet, anyone who is somewhat selfish or underacheiving based on being overhyped is automatically a much worse player than they actually are.

I made a mistake to lump KG in here, but some people on this board diss KG BIG TIME, and almost lump him with someone like McGrady. Imagine if the Wolves or Lakers missed the playoffs this season, how much scolding Kobe or Garnett would get? Would you scold them too for quiting and not leading their team? Many on this board would.

Who do you feel is the better player RVB? Who would you take if you had to start a franchise?

Please do not recite the same callous speeches over and over. Who is the better NBA PLAYER?OMFG!

Step away from the keyboard and go take your medication.

I think I already answered your question quite clearly. Go back and read my previous post.

The point about team play was not specifically addressed to you, but to all people that think that players are like legos that can be added and removed like bricks on a wall. You pick players to fit in a team, so absurd hypothetical scenarios of just picking between player A or player B without context (teammates, salary, team cap, position, etc.) are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Good nite.

[exstatic]

Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.

He's also one of the top 5 babys in the league. He fucking quit on Orlando last year, which is why they shipped him out. He has individual talent, but that isn't what great teams are made of. You hear it over and over: great players make the players around them better. Who has McGrady made better? What team has he lifted onto his shoulders and carried? Shit, two "All-Stars" in Houston, and they're barely in the playoff picture.

[exstatic]

LJ - I think that if Manu "Retired" from the National team, he could play 35. Pop has "managed" his minutes this year, and he's still averaging more per game than last year.

[Solid D]

You can't be serious. Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.

T-Mac scored 40 points and helped beat the T-Wolves in OT tonight. T-Mac is one of the top scoring guards in the NBA, Jordan-like sometimes. He was the leading West vote-getter for guards.

I'd still take Manu for my earlier stated reasons. But then again, I don't get wrapped up in playing fantasy leagues. Maybe McGrady's back holds up long enough...and he leads Houston past the Spurs in the Playoffs...and if that happens, I'm open to changing my mind. Manu has the substance of a total basketball player, a lion-hearted champion. I happen to like that.

[timvp]

LJ - I think that if Manu "Retired" from the National team, he could play 35. Pop has "managed" his minutes this year, and he's still averaging more per game than last year.

He's averaging .4 more minutes per game this season compared to last season (29.4 to 29.8). He's just playing so much better this season that it seems like he's on the court more.













.4 Strike Again :shootme

[SequSpur]

T-Mac scored 40 points and helped beat the T-Wolves in OT tonight. T-Mac is one of the top scoring guards in the NBA, Jordan-like sometimes. He was the leading West vote-getter for guards.

I'd still take Manu for my earlier stated reasons. But then again, I don't get wrapped up in playing fantasy leagues. Maybe McGrady's back holds up long enough...and he leads Houston past the Spurs in the Playoffs...and if that happens, I'm open to changing my mind. Manu has the substance of a total basketball player, a lion-hearted champion. I happen to like that.


Rockets have beaten the Spurs twice this season because of Tmac.

[SuperManu!!!]

You can't be serious. Tracy McGrady is one of the top 5 players in the NBA.


YOu must mean top 5 FGs attemps per game.
I would never have him in my team. He is the kind of player that only thinks about himself. Look at houston this year.... this guy have wasted the rockets season! They were better without him. Also orlando have improved much more!

[SequSpur]

Rockets are 2 and 0 vs. your 37 and 10 Spurs. Thanks to McGrady.

[exstatic]

...but they seem to lose to everyone else and their brother. If he's sucha fucking wonder player, why are they in the bottom half of the WC draw? Regular season don't mean shit. We beat Houston HOW MANY TIMES in 94-95? Every regular season game, IIRC. They handed us our heads in the playoffs because they were the better team.

[Solid D]

Rockets have beaten the Spurs twice this season because of Tmac.

The first game, true. The second game, not so true. T-Mac was 10-28, while Gino was having to sit out the second half due to injury. The Rockets D was the bigger story in the second game and the Spurs could have used some of Manu's scoring and playmaking in the 4th quarter.

I'll reserve judgment for after the season - sticking with preference for Gino right now.

[SequSpur]

Did you not watch the game tonight? Tmac killed the Twolves. You pull his number and he makes the shot.

They beat the Spurs twice. The best team in the NBA. That isn't scary?

The rockets have 3 centers to throw at Duncan. No one on the Spurs can guard Tmac. The only thing they are lacking is a damn point guard.

They might peak here in the next few months and do well in the playoffs. They have the defense for the playoffs and they definitely have one of the best crunch time players.

[exstatic]

Tmac killed the Twolves.

Yay. He can put up points on a team clearly sleepwalking through the season. BFD.

[SequSpur]

I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be playing the rockets in a close game with tmac on the floor. The Spurs would probably lose more times than not.

[exstatic]

Press the Rockets, and expose their weak PG play. Attack with Parker on the other end. Other than TMac, their shooting is spotty. Play some Zone, and make them beat it.

[SequSpur]

Where is Parker going to attack? Over Yao and Mutombo/Howard? Parker is not a good shooter. The Spurs didn't shoot well against their defense for some reason, Duncan was tripled and no one could help. Its not that easy.

The Rockets don't have a point guard, Tmac is taking on that duty as well.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Did you not watch the game tonight? Tmac killed the Twolves. You pull his number and he makes the shot.

Everyone's killing the Wolves. Weak take.

[SequSpur]

True.

Tmac is still one of the best in the NBA. 2 and 0 vs. Spurs.

[whottt]

TMac wasn't the reason we lost that 1st Rocket Game...Pop was.

Our offense sucked, and it choked down the stretch of that game...

Barry, Horry and Beno played a combined 23 minutes in that game.

It's Pop when we do that shit...look at the LA game.

Hell Segu, if that impressed you you must be nutting over the Raptors bench players...they came back on us from 20 fown after Cater and Jalen went out of the game.

That Houston loss is on Pop, he did stupid substitutions in that game...the only bench guys that got any minutes were Devin(who made a numnuts TO on the last play) and Rose(who sucked that game), and that was the second night of back to back.

Don't be saying some dude is great because the Spurs offense choked...if you take that approach you are going to be in love with a lot of shitty players and teams...

Fuck, Chucky Atkins nearly did the same thing to us last night.

[Solid D]

Where is Parker going to attack? Over Yao and Mutombo/Howard? Parker is not a good shooter. The Spurs didn't shoot well against their defense for some reason, Duncan was tripled and no one could help. Its not that easy.

The Rockets don't have a point guard, Tmac is taking on that duty as well.

I agree with you that the Rockets are playing very well. TMac is not really taking on the duty of PG. Bobby Sura is and he's really upped his play, since he became healthy again. He's not a true PG but he's doing okay and Strickland is spotting him with minutes as a backup now.

[whottt]

One last time...

TMac played for the worst team in the NBA last season, he lost 19 in a row, the second longest losing streak in NBA history.

The Magic traded him and they are better now...the Rockets traded for him and they are worse.

Isn't it supposed to work the opposite of that if the guy is a SuperStar?

A Super Star should improve a team...observe Shaq and the Heat...

The Heat gave up nearly their whole freaking playoff team for him...and they are better now, and the Lakers suck.

Figure it the fuck out, TMac is an over-rated piece of crap.

[whottt]

And Jack hit 4 three pointers in a row also...only he did it in the playoffs.

[whottt]

Let's take what I like to call a stupidity test...

Type the letter A if you think Manu wouldn't score more points if he was taking 11 more shots per game.

[Nikos]

OMFG!

Step away from the keyboard and go take your medication.

I think I already answered your question quite clearly. Go back and read my previous post.

The point about team play was not specifically addressed to you, but to all people that think that players are like legos that can be added and removed like bricks on a wall. You pick players to fit in a team, so absurd hypothetical scenarios of just picking between player A or player B without context (teammates, salary, team cap, position, etc.) are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Good nite.

Thank you for telling my to take my medication. I appreciate it.

And no, you didn't really address anything I expected you to. You merely restated the whole 'team play' concept. And basically implied that Manu is better than pretty much any player who is not a superstar in this league. At least that is the impression I get.

Going by your synopisis of Manu, he is a Top 10 basketball player in the World+NBA. It is hard for me to gauge what your true opinion is on NBA players. You value team play, unselfishness and you state it over and over. But I still do not get the sense of how you judge players. I guess it does not matter, and you are not interested in the type of debate that I am so I guess its pointless to continue the argument.

However I do not appreciate the comments you make towards myself -- you know how I feel about the Spurs, Ginobili, Argentina and team ball. And it suprises me that you preach to me about it as if you do not even know my opinions on the matter at all.

[Nikos]

Not a damn thing. Lots of people are good when it doesn't matter (like the qualifiers). See McGrady for one, or our favorite Turk Hedo frozen in the corner vs. LA Turkoglu.

That's the whole point. TMac can put up big numbers and win games in qualifers, or in December, when it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

When the chips are down in the post season, Manu wants the ball. TMac wants to go golfing.

Did Tmac want to go golfing, or did his teamattes? Or could it perhaps be that the team he faced was simply....gasp.......better?

[Nikos]

One last time...

TMac played for the worst team in the NBA last season, he lost 19 in a row, the second longest losing streak in NBA history.

The Magic traded him and they are better now...the Rockets traded for him and they are worse.

Isn't it supposed to work the opposite of that if the guy is a SuperStar?

A Super Star should improve a team...observe Shaq and the Heat...

The Heat gave up nearly their whole freaking playoff team for him...and they are better now, and the Lakers suck.

Figure it the fuck out, TMac is an over-rated piece of crap.

Overrated? Sure.

Is he garbage, like your tirades make him out to be? Not even close.

[whottt]

Overrated? Sure.

Is he garbage, like your tirades make him out to be? Not even close.

Absolute trash...

You may not have a problem with guys making 15 mil a season that tank games...but I sure as fuck do. He'd be the last guy I want on my team.

He may be a decent guy off the court, but one the court calling him trash is an insult to trash. And the dumb SOB is too stupid to realize how stupid it is to admit he tanked games...I'm sure the Orlando Fans really want him back.

19 losses in a row is 19 losses in a row Nikos. Find another Super Star that has done it...How good can he be if he played for the worst team in the NBA last season?

I'd take AJ before I'd take TMac..

Fucking AJ can lead a team to 21 wins as the best player on the team, he'd do it for cheaper...and he'd at least have enough competitiveness to be bossy, if not develop a 3 shot or be able to shoot FT's.

[Nikos]

Absolute trash...

You may not have a problem with guys making 15 mil a season that tank games...but I sure as fuck do. He'd be the last guy I want on my team.

It bothered me a bit too. I lost respect for Tmac last season. He was one of my favorites to watch back in the day. That respect diminished for me after last season.

But I refuse to deny that he is an excellent player and talent in this league.

[Nikos]

Absolute trash...

You may not have a problem with guys making 15 mil a season that tank games...but I sure as fuck do. He'd be the last guy I want on my team.

He may be a decent guy off the court, but one the court calling him trash is an insult to trash. And the dumb SOB is too stupid to realize how stupid it is to admit he tanked games...I'm sure the Orlando Fans really want him back.

Shouldn't, ANY player who tanks be considered trash by your standards? What does it matter if he makes 15 million or 1 million?

[whottt]

Shouldn't, ANY player who tanks be considered trash by your standards? What does it matter if he makes 15 million or 1 million?


Hmmm....Well, no player that admits he tanks games is ever going to be on my list of favorites...but if the guy is making more money than anyone on the team and I have the majority of my cap devoted to him...he better be the last mofo to quit.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Holy shit, I can't believe this debate has raged so long. TMac licks monkey balls plain and simple. When was the last time you ever saw him pass the ball? Or better yet, I'm willing to bet that Manu could do for a slug like Yao what Steve Nash did for Amare Stoudemire to some extent. Manu makes the people around him better. McGrady makes his teammates fall asleep.

[Frenchise player]

I never said he would not improve, I said that Beno is going to be so great that we can not keep both, and that in another 1-2 yrs, we should trade TP so we can get something great for him like a real good center or a good backup PF.

Pay attention!!!
12-17-2004, 02:01 AM #34
Jimcs50
ATM Machine


Position: Dominant Center
Team: San Antonio Spurs
vBookie Cash: $300
Post Count: 18,437
Re: Udrih > Parker

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Neither were any better in their 8th year, they were more well know, they had better teams, that is all. TD today is not better than he was in 01 or 02 and he will not be any better than he is now....that is my point.

TP is as good as he is gong to get, in fact he will drop off a lot sooner than a lot of players because what sets him apart from the rest is his speed, and that is the first thing to go. He has a so so shooting stroke, he is HORRIBLE at the FT line, something that is soooo rare for a PG, because PGs are suposed to be decent FT shooters, and usually are. He is an average, at best PG in the NBA, one that is very fortunate to be playing with great teammates. Put him on a team like New Orleans and you will see a huge difference betw him and a healthy Baron Davis.

Put a Steve Nash on the Spurs and he would have 13 assists and shoot 56% a game.
Offline | Online

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Did you not watch the game tonight? Tmac killed the Twolves. You pull his number and he makes the shot.

They beat the Spurs twice. The best team in the NBA. That isn't scary?

The rockets have 3 centers to throw at Duncan. No one on the Spurs can guard Tmac. The only thing they are lacking is a damn point guard.

They might peak here in the next few months and do well in the playoffs. They have the defense for the playoffs and they definitely have one of the best crunch time players.
Christ, you tell your precious T-MAc to try and pull that 13 point miracle again, and I'll bet my fucking life he won't be able to do it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It bothered me a bit too. I lost respect for Tmac last season. He was one of my favorites to watch back in the day. That respect diminished for me after last season.

But I refuse to deny that he is an excellent player and talent in this league.
I think what you mean is that T-Mac is one of the most talented in the NBA, not one of the best players. IMO a GOOD player is a TEAM player, someone who helps the rest of the team improve and knows that sometimes money, or playing time are not the most important aspects of LEADERSHIP!

[waly.mg]

Tha Real Fact is Manu Scores more than 1,5 Points por Shot

Now Manu Shoots 10 each Game and Scores 15,9

If Manu Shoot 20 times he scores 25 Points a Game and if he continues with 1,5 PPS he Scores 30

[Nikos]

Tha Real Fact is Manu Scores more than 1,5 Points por Shot

Now Manu Shoots 10 each Game and Scores 15,9

If Manu Shoot 20 times he scores 25 Points a Game and if he continues with 1,5 PPS he Scores 30

No it does not work thay way. There is a certain skill curve that comes into play. Some players can handle the extra possesions and still maintain their efficiency, most cannot handle or maintain it with extra possesions.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No it does not work thay way. There is a certain skill curve that comes into play. Some players can handle the extra possesions and still maintain their efficiency, most cannot handle or maintain it with extra possesions.
Right, the point is, you don't know whether or not he could or would. I THINK he can, what do you THINK?

[Jimcs50]

The only real flaw in Manu's game is he can't play more than 30 minutes per game. He just doesn't have the stamina to go out there and give you 35-40 solid minutes over an 82 game schedule.

That is why every GM in the league would take TMac over Ginobili if you had to build a team around one of them. You can't really build a team around a guy who plays a little over half the game, no matter how good he is.

But given that, if I was going into game seven of the NBA Finals, Ginobili is one of the first players in the league I'd want on my team.

No player can play 40 mins if they played as hard and went at it as hard as Manu does when he is in the game. He expends more energy and sacrifices his body more than 99% of the players in the game.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The only real flaw in Manu's game is he can't play more than 30 minutes per game. He just doesn't have the stamina to go out there and give you 35-40 solid minutes over an 82 game schedule.

That is why every GM in the league would take TMac over Ginobili if you had to build a team around one of them. You can't really build a team around a guy who plays a little over half the game, no matter how good he is.

But given that, if I was going into game seven of the NBA Finals, Ginobili is one of the first players in the league I'd want on my team.I don't think that's fair. This is the first year that Manu has gotten a chance to play real minutes, and it comes right after having worked his ass off carrying his team to an Olympic gold. I would think he would be tired after having gone through something so strenous. Maybe if he actually took the summer off and rested we could verify if he just doesn't have the stamina to play 35 - 40 minute games throughout the 82 game season. Until then, I suggest we not criticise his stamina. I mean, even Tim hasn't been playing 40 minute games (due in large part to the fact Pop doesn't let him) but either way, that could also be the case with Manu.

[waly.mg]

No it does not work thay way. There is a certain skill curve that comes into play. Some players can handle the extra possesions and still maintain their efficiency, most cannot handle or maintain it with extra possesions.

Yes, that´s the reason that i Say 25 Points in 20 Shots and nor 30

[Nikos]

Yes, that´s the reason that i Say 25 Points in 20 Shots and nor 30

I think Manu's assists would go up at a higher rate if he had to run an offense. I am not sure how much his scoring efficiency would tailor off, but it likely would be a reasonable amount.

But I think his best assets are his pure playmaking ability. He can make plays for himself and others as well as most 2 guards in the league. I do not think he has the mentality to take 20 shots + for an entire season. He is just too unselfish, and does not really have that scorers mentaility all the time. Some nights he can get it going, but others hes more content finding the open man.

But who knows? Maybe he is the type that can get a little better with more possesions, considering his playmaking ability? Or maybe the team will not even need to find this out, because they might be solid enough as it is.

[picnroll]

I think the "Manu can't play heavy minutes" may be a little deceiving. I think that's more Pop's monitoring Manu's minutes than anything else.

Manu's minutes have creeped up from 28.8 to 29.7 to 32 from Nov to Dec to Jan. Unless the Spurs have lots of blowouts I expect Manu's minutes will continue upward and in the playoffs he'll be getting 36+ minutes if games are tight. When Manu gets 34 or more minutes (11 games, avg minutes 35.7, almost all 34-35 minutes and only the Suns OT over 40) Manu averages 21.36 points. Some of these have been in back to back nights. Most have been close games. His shooting avg in those games has been .578, in part probably reflecting playing time because he was hot, but certainly not a sign his shooting was showing effects of fatigue.

[Das Texan]

Didn't Manu destroy Phoenix? There are more things that Manu does well than McGrady does well.


And winners win.

Manu is a winner. You can't say the same about TMac.


I'd prefer a team of winners over a team of talented me first players.


But I guess thats kinda in TMac's family. Him and Vince are both great at quitting.

[SequSpur]

Manu on the Magic, Manu on the Rockets = Lottery team.

Manu has the benefit of playing with Duncan. Can you imagine the Spurs with Duncan and McGrady? They might win 82 games and sweep through the playoffs.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manu on the Magic, Manu on the Rockets = Lottery team.

Manu has the benefit of playing with Duncan. Can you imagine the Spurs with Duncan and McGrady? They might win 82 games and sweep through the playoffs.
Ok, now you're just playing stupid, come on!!

[Nikos]

I'd prefer a team of winners over a team of talented me first players.

Well of course. I prefer the same thing. That is why over the offseason I would have rather kept Manu than having the Spurs even THINK about signing Kobe. Most fans on this board would take the superstar and the titles without thinking twice. But that is not why I enjoy the Spurs particularly -- I would like to see them win titles with the type of team they have now.

It would just be too easy and unsatisfying if it were Duncan and Kobe -- the title would not mean as much as it did in 0203 or it may mean in the future should the Spurs win.

Spurs play like a solid TEAM, they are unselfish, and genuinely enjoy each others company on the floor. Not all teams can say they have that chemistry and appreciation for each other. That is what is special about the team, and that will be underscored even more should they win the title.

[Leo_ARG]

Manu on the Magic, Manu on the Rockets = Lottery team.

Manu has the benefit of playing with Duncan. Can you imagine the Spurs with Duncan and McGrady? They might win 82 games and sweep through the playoffs.
`
And can you imagine Jason Kidd, Manu Ginobili, Kg and Shaq... They might win 82 games and sweep through the playoffs


Sarcasm feels good :spin

[SuperManu!!!]

Manu has the benefit of playing with Duncan. Can you imagine the Spurs with Duncan and McGrady? They might win 82 games and sweep through the playoffs.


http://www.geocities.com/felipejulieta/shutup.JPG

[smeagol]

Ginobili won't be in the ASG. I guarantee it. :smokin
How much is a guarantee by wolvesie009 worth . . .?

Shit!

Thanks for sharing your insights with us, asswipe.

[ALVAREZ6]

Ginobili won't be in the ASG. I guarantee it. :smokin
And what about that Sam Cassell guy?

How many votes does he have....2?

Twolves, don't take it out on the Spurs because your team is the filthiest piece of fucking shit of out your mom's ass.