A question for Real basketball Fans.....Amare or Dwight????

[rlballin1]

If you were starting a team in a new city, who would u choose to take as your starting center. To make things fair, we will have to say that this is at the beginning of both of their careers, (ie b4 microfracture surgery)

My pick was Dwight, he is committed on the defensive end. He rebounds, blocks shots, an incredible athlete, great teammate, and his offensive game is coming around.

I had this argument with a friend of mine and I was told I was crazy and my basketball IQ was in jeopardy..........

So i wanna hear some of yalls ideas

[mathbzh]

May I start with Duncan?

[stretch]

Dwight by far. Your argument pretty much covered what any smart basketball mind would say. He is not quite as refined offensively yet, but to be fair, he doesnt have a system based on scoring, or Steve Nash throwing him passes either. He is a far superior rebounder on both ends, shot blocker, more athletic, taller, better defender, puts forth effort on both ends of the court.

Amare dunks, takes alley-oops from Steve Nash, hits a 15 foot jumper... and not much else. Thats all he did even before his surgery.

Dwight >>> Amare

[JamStone]

I'd take Dwight but either would be great. A lot of people on these boards love to slam Amare because he can be a dick, he's cocky, and he's stupid. But he's still an elite big man in the league. And he's much better than some people here want to portray him as.

Howard is bigger, stronger, and better capable of anchoring an elite defense. That's why I'd give him the edge.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Dwight by far. Your argument pretty much covered what any smart basketball mind would say. He is not quite as refined offensively yet, but to be fair, he doesnt have a system based on scoring, or Steve Nash throwing him passes either. He is a far superior rebounder on both ends, shot blocker, more athletic, taller, better defender, puts forth effort on both ends of the court.

Amare dunks, takes alley-oops from Steve Nash, hits a 15 foot jumper... and not much else. Thats all he did even before his surgery.

Dwight >>> Amare

+1

[tlongII]

Greg Oden

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Howard, no question.

[rlballin1]

Tlong man u make me laugh......I hope the trailblazers do well, for your sake......a lot is riding on hope

[Findog]

I'll take the guy who fucks porn stars. Don't tell Obstructed View.

[manufor3]

howard no contest.

[Lake_show]

Andrew Bynum

[lebomb]

Dwight Howard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

[Findog]

DeSagana Diop. He's from Africa, and he'll machete your ass!

[Spuradicator]

Andrew Bynum

:lmao


Duncan over all the above mentioned and quite a bit more.

Dwight above Amare easily.

[JamStone]

Dwight Howard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

Dwight Howard >>>> Andrew Bynum

If he returns healthy, Bynum could be closer than you think. Offensively, Bynum is already better than Howard.

[stretch]

But he's still an elite offensive big man in the league who gets fed an extra 15 points a game from Steve Nash.

fixed

[stretch]

Dwight Howard >>>> Andrew Bynum

If he returns healthy, Bynum could be closer than you think. Offensively, Bynum is already better than Howard.

i wont say hes better just yet, but he does have more skills and moves on offense. but i agree that a healthy Bynum is a lot closer than people will realize.

[MavDynasty]

DeSagana Diop. He's from Africa, and he'll machete your ass!

lol my badass post

[IronMexican]

Bynum is a lot more skilled in the post than Howard.

If howard can't develop some moves inside, his dominance will end before it even started.

[monosylab1k]

Bynum is a lot more skilled in the post than Howard.

If howard can't develop some moves inside, his dominance will end before it even started.

:lmao Dwight Howard averages 20+ points a night. I'll take that kind of low-post ineptness any day.

Bynum is nowhere near Howard's level.

[JamStone]

But he's still an elite offensive big man in the league who gets fed an extra 15 points a game from Steve Nash.

Amare averaged 20.6 ppg the year before Steve Nash joined the Suns and with Marbury playing less than half the season for the Suns. Nash helps, but let's not paint Amare to be inept without Steve Nash, especially since you bolded the fact that Amare is still an elite offensive big man.

[JamStone]

:lmao Dwight Howard averages 20+ points a night. I'll take that kind of low-post ineptness any day.

Bynum is nowhere near Howard's level.

When a player has the natural physical gifts Dwight Howard has and can shoot 60% from the field, wouldn't you expect him to score closer to 30 ppg?

Howard is absolutely the better player. Bynum is still mostly potential. But, it's certainly reasonable to say Bynum is better offensively and not that far off if he can stay healthy and continue to develop at the pace he was last year before he got injured. Physically and athletically, Bynum is not far behind Dwight Howard. Behind, but not far behind. Continued improved conditioning and better focus not to foul, and he will get closer defensively as well.

Bynum is not at Howard's level. But, he's not far behind.

[monosylab1k]

When a player has the natural physical gifts Dwight Howard has and can shoot 60% from the field, wouldn't you expect him to score closer to 30 ppg?

Not when Rashard Lewis & Turkoglu are jacking it up any chance they get. Jameer Nelson can also be an expert chucker when he wants.

Howard's getting 20 a night with hardly any offense run through him. His post skills may not be all that polished, but even with Bynum's great post skills he's not having nearly the impact on either end of the floor as Howard has.

[IronMexican]

:lmao Dwight Howard averages 20+ points a night. I'll take that kind of low-post ineptness any day.

Bynum is nowhere near Howard's level.

All those skilled player who can just dunk have very long careers, just look at Kemp.

a lot longer than people with post moves, huh?

i mean shaq, and duncan came and left, but kemp, he had a very long career.

[monosylab1k]

All those skilled player who can just dunk have very long careers, just look at Kemp.

a lot longer than people with post moves, huh?

i mean shaq, and duncan came and left, but kemp, he had a very long career.

:lmao comparing bynum to shaq & duncan.

[monosylab1k]

let's see what Bynum does next year assuming he can play more than 30 games.

Laker fans blowing their chodes over 13/10 a night :lmao

His low post expertise has put him at the same level as Chris Kaman!

[IronMexican]

of course i am not comparing bynum to those two players.

but you would take the high flying big man over a post big?

[JamStone]

Howard doesn't get the offense run through him more because he isn't capable of consistently scoring in the low post by creating his own offense. His scoring is still primarily offensive rebound putbacks, seal off alley oops, and free throws. Shaq has had chuckers on his teams before and at a similar age was putting up 28-29 ppg. Howard had no real power forward playing alongside him and no legit scoring threat from the 2-guard this past season. And, Jameer Nelson was pretty inconsistent. If Howard is your horse, you'd expect him to put up 25+ ppg. But, he can't because his offense in the low post is not good enough to consistently post him up. That's why they have to use a lot of alley oops to get his scoring up.

[monosylab1k]

of course i am not comparing bynum to those two players.

but you would take the high flying big man over a post big?

i'll take a post big who can stay healthy and chip in more than 13 points a night.

otherwise i'll take the high flyer who can put in 20 a night doing cleanup.

[JamStone]

let's see what Bynum does next year assuming he can play more than 30 games.

Laker fans blowing their chodes over 13/10 a night :lmao

His low post expertise has put him at the same level as Chris Kaman!


13/10 in 29 minutes a game and on 63.6% shooting from the field.

Chris Kaman is actually a pretty good low post player. Dwight Howard is not at the level of Chris Kaman offensively. So, you're actually supporting the point that Bynum is offensively better than Howard.

[monosylab1k]

Chris Kaman is actually a pretty good low post player. Dwight Howard is not at the level of Chris Kaman offensively. So, you're actually supporting the point that Bynum is offensively better than Howard.

He's better at scoring in the low post.

He's not better offensively. 20>13 last time I checked.

[IronMexican]

i thought you actually had smart things to say.

at the beginning of the season, his stats were not so good.

he caught on around december, before getting hurt in January, we were the #1 rebounding team in the NBA.

he can shot block and rebound just as good as Dwight, but has more of a presence in the low post, but you are just gonna say something useless or add a ":lmao" to make it seem smart.

[monosylab1k]

he can shot block and rebound just as good as Dwight

might wanna check those stats out some time.

[monosylab1k]

seriously, Laker Fan, if you wanna jerk it to 35 games played and 13/10 a night, be my guest.

"he was getting really good right before he got hurt again!" :lmao

[JamStone]

He's better at scoring in the low post.

He's not better offensively. 20>13 last time I checked.

Are you going to tell me that Corey Maggette is a better offensive player than Paul Pierce because he averaged more points last season?

[IronMexican]

Are you going to tell me that Corey Maggette is a better offensive player than Paul Pierce because he averaged more points last season?

Of course he is.(sarcasm)

i mean, i bet i could make that case and say "shaq's stats are better than duncan's so i say Shaq>>>>>>>Duncan", but i would just get flamed up the ass.

it's from a haters standpoint.

[monosylab1k]

Are you going to tell me that Corey Maggette is a better offensive player than Paul Pierce because he averaged more points last season?

I guess if PP averaged 7 fewer points and his most frequent contributions during the season were clapping in a suit at the end of the bench, I might be inclined to, yes.

[monosylab1k]

it's from a haters standpoint.

actually I've been a big Bynum supporter on this site. Look it up.

I just see the stupidity in putting him anywhere near the same level as Dwight Howard. He's nowhere close, and he's never been anywhere close.

He's got the potential to be somewhat close, and that doesn't mean shit.

[Darthkiller]

what, dude dwight got shut down by the pistons almost completely in the playoff. Amare averages 30+ points against duncan.

[JamStone]

actually I've been a big Bynum supporter on this site. Look it up.

I just see the stupidity in putting him anywhere near the same level as Dwight Howard. He's nowhere close, and he's never been anywhere close.

He's got the potential to be somewhat close, and that doesn't mean shit.


You talk as if Bynum played in like 4 games all season long. He played in 35 games. Enough games to get a pretty good gauge on what he's capable of doing.

And, he averaged 28.8 minutes per game. Dwight Howard averaged 37.7 minutes per game.

Stats of the two players:

Dwight Howard
20.7 ppg
14.2 rpg
2.15 bpg
59.9 FG%
37.7 mpg

Andrew Bynum
13.1 ppg
10.2 rpg
2.06 bpg
63.6 FG%
28.8 mpg

If Andrew Bynum played the same amount of minutes as Dwight Howard, his stats would be:

17.1 ppg
13.4 rpg
2.7 bpg

He's not better than Dwight Howard. But to say he's not close is naively inaccurate.

[monosylab1k]

Another reason Dwight is far superior - conditioning.

What makes you think Bynum was capable of averaging the minutes Howard averages?

How can you definitively say that 9 more minutes of Bynum huffing & puffing down the court will definitely equal 4 more points & 3 more rebounds or whatever?

Conditioning had been a problem of Yao's previously, this year he played more minutes per game than ever, and most of his stats hovered in the same area or even dropped.

Giving Bynum 9 more minutes might just mean the other team has an advantage because he's so fatigued.

[JamStone]

Now you're reaching. His conditioning already improved in light years last season. Especially with Turiaf going to the Warriors, Bynum will likely log around 35 mpg this upcoming season. His conditioning doesn't change his offensive skills.

The whole point is that he's close to the level Dwight Howard is and has better offensive skills.

[monosylab1k]

The whole point is that he's close to the level Dwight Howard is and has better offensive skills.

No he isn't, and no he doesn't. He has better low post skills. That's it.

[JamStone]

I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.

[HeyIt'sMe]

I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.

Well, no offense, but it's asinine to state that Bynum is close to Howard at this point in time. This whole opinion is based on 35 measley games, and he wasn't all that good his first two seasons in the league. Let him prove himself over the course of a season before you go proclaiming him to be near the level of a 22 year old kid who just put up 21 and 14.

[ThunderStix®]

Howard, no question.

[JamStone]

35 measly games? They were 35 games in which the Lakers were 24-11 and were right there at the top of the Western Conference. They weren't measly or meaningless games. 35 games is enough games to gauge a player. He shot 64% from the field. He averaged over 10 rebounds a game in under 30 minutes a game. That's not a fluke. 35 games is not a fluke. 3 or 4 games is a fluke. 35 games is nearly half a season.

The kid showed enough for enough games to give every indication that he's going to be one of the best big men in the upcoming years.

I didn't say he was better than Dwight Howard. Didn't say he was at the same level. He's still got plenty of room for improvement. But, he's not far behind. And, he's much closer than you'd like to admit.

[Findog]

re: Thunderstix's sig.

Thank him for what? For fucking up everything he touches?

[HeyIt'sMe]

35 measly games? They were 35 games in which the Lakers were 24-11 and were right there at the top of the Western Conference. They weren't measly or meaningless games. 35 games is enough games to gauge a player. He shot 64% from the field. He averaged over 10 rebounds a game in under 30 minutes a game. That's not a fluke. 35 games is not a fluke. 3 or 4 games is a fluke. 35 games is nearly half a season.

The kid showed enough for enough games to give every indication that he's going to be one of the best big men in the upcoming years.

I didn't say he was better than Dwight Howard. Didn't say he was at the same level. He's still got plenty of room for improvement. But, he's not far behind. And, he's much closer than you'd like to admit.

Than I'd like to admit? I'm not a Howard shill like most. He's still got a ton of work to do on his game and is overrated by many. That said, he's a lot better than Bynum RIGHT NOW.

FWIW, it helped Bynum that he played with Kobe Bryant, who took a ton of attention away from him. Lewis and Turkoglu are good, but they don't demand the attention that Kobe does. Andrew Bynum may get to, and even surpass (I wouldn't put money on it, though) Howard one day, but at this point in time, he's mearly a promising big guy who put up respectable numbers in 35 games with the league MVP on his team. Except in rare occasions, big men who aren't #1 picks almost never end up being great.

[mardigan]

i mean shaq, and duncan came and left, but kemp, he had a very long career.

He played like 14 years

[JamStone]

GTFO here with the he played with an MVP shit. Bynum was getting plenty of attention particularly because he could score in the low post and not just off alley oops and putbacks. And, you could say something similar about Dwight Howard in that he played with a bunch of great three point shooters that forced teams to play Howard more honestly with single coverage. All four of Dwight's starting teammates shot 40% from three point range this past season. So enough of that bullshit.

As for this gem:


Except in rare occasions, big men who aren't #1 picks almost never end up being great.

Like many right out of high school big men, there is risk taking a kid #1 overall. Similar to international kids. Guys like Amare Stoudemire, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol weren't taken #1. Would you prefer #1's like Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi, Pervis Ellison, Kenyon Martin, and Joe Smith? You can add #2's Darko Milicic, Sam Bowie, and Stromile Swift if you'd like.

[pauls931]

If howard can play a lick of defense, I might take him over stoudarmire. It's a hard choice since I like both.

[remingtonbo2001]

Now you're reaching. His conditioning already improved in light years last season. Especially with Turiaf going to the Warriors, Bynum will likely log around 35 mpg this upcoming season. His conditioning doesn't change his offensive skills.

The whole point is that he's close to the level Dwight Howard is and has better offensive skills.

Stamina does in fact change the way a player is able to perform offensively, and defensively for that matter, regardless of skill.

The only individual that I can recall who's skill level was so ridiculously high as to not be affected by fatigue, was Michael Jordan.

Personally, I don't see Bynum holding up over 80+ games, playing of 35 min/gm.

Some bodies are physically capable of handling the NBA season, others are not.

[mystargtr34]

If howard can play a lick of defense, I might take him over stoudarmire. It's a hard choice since I like both.

Thats sarcasm yea??

You realise Dwight's defense is light years ahead of Amares?

JamStone makes some good points, Bynum is more polished offensively, but theres a reason he was only playing 28 minutes a game as opposed to 35, and it didnt have anything to do with the quality of Kwame Brown and Chris Mihn.

Bynum is 2 years younger, and still learning the defensive side of the game. At the same age, Bynum>Howard for mine.... but right now, Howard is the better player.

[Tully365]

I'd say Howard by a mile. Amare is a defensive liability when he's on the court, and commits dumb fouls that often have him on the bench watching the game early in the 4th quarter. I look at it this way: what are the chances that Amare ever has a better team than the one he's had the past couple of years? If you have Nash, Marion, Bell, Barbosa, and Diaw, and you yourself are an elite center, and you still can't get to the WCF, what more could you possibly ask for? That's an MVP point guard, two second team all defensive guys, a 6th man of the year...plus a "great" center. If the Suns had traded Amare for Garnett when they had the chance, I think they would have had their best shot at a title.

[HeyIt'sMe]

GTFO here with the he played with an MVP shit. Bynum was getting plenty of attention particularly because he could score in the low post and not just off alley oops and putbacks. And, you could say something similar about Dwight Howard in that he played with a bunch of great three point shooters that forced teams to play Howard more honestly with single coverage. All four of Dwight's starting teammates shot 40% from three point range this past season. So enough of that bullshit.

As for this gem:



Like many right out of high school big men, there is risk taking a kid #1 overall. Similar to international kids. Guys like Amare Stoudemire, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol weren't taken #1. Would you prefer #1's like Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi, Pervis Ellison, Kenyon Martin, and Joe Smith? You can add #2's Darko Milicic, Sam Bowie, and Stromile Swift if you'd like.

Bynum doesn't/didn't get double teamed nearly as much as Dwight did (Kendrick Perkins absolutely schooled him both times they met), and enough of this great low post offense garbage. He has the chance to have a very good low post game, mainly because of his length and touch, but it's hardly overwhelming right now.

Bynum right now is where Howard is at offensively. He can score on offense when his man gets left on him and he's allowed to work one-on-one, but struggles with the double team. Howard, despite his lack of a dominant low post game, can still kill defenders when given single coverage because of his strength and athleticism (he scored at will on Duncan last season and always dominates Okafor, who is very good defensively). The only two players I have seen legitimately guard and shut down Dwight are Yao and Rasheed, the two single best low post defenders in the league, IMHO. Additionally, don't pretend Bynum doesn't get his fair share of points off of putbacks and alley oops, because he sure as hell does.

Look, I like Andrew Bynum as a prospect. He has tremendous size, length, and touch for a man his size, and he's a half way decent athlete to boot, but his breakout season contained 35 freakin' games, and he didn't truly establish himself until about the 10th game of the season. He's esentially had one really good month in his career. He COULD be great, but it's not a guarantee. It's easy to look at his projected numbers per 36 minutes, but if he can't play 36 MPG, than it's a moot point.

[Tully365]

Bynum doesn't/didn't get double teamed nearly as much as Dwight did (Kendrick Perkins absolutely schooled him both times they met), and enough of this great low post offense garbage. He has the chance to have a very good low post game, mainly because of his length and touch, but it's hardly overwhelming right now.

Bynum right now is where Howard is at offensively. He can score on offense when his man gets left on him and he's allowed to work one-on-one, but struggles with the double team. Howard, despite his lack of a dominant low post game, can still kill defenders when given single coverage because of his strength and athleticism (he scored at will on Duncan last season and always dominates Okafor, who is very good defensively). The only two players I have seen legitimately guard and shut down Dwight are Yao and Rasheed, the two single best low post defenders in the league, IMHO. Additionally, don't pretend Bynum doesn't get his fair share of points off of putbacks and alley oops, because he sure as hell does.

Look, I like Andrew Bynum as a prospect. He has tremendous size, length, and touch for a man his size, and he's a half way decent athlete to boot, but his breakout season contained 35 freakin' games, and he didn't truly establish himself until about the 10th game of the season. He's esentially had one really good month in his career. He COULD be great, but it's not a guarantee. It's easy to look at his projected numbers per 36 minutes, but if he can't play 36 MPG, than it's a moot point.

I agree: Bynum has the potential to be very good, but at this point he's had a grand total of 1/2 of a good season-- and is coming off of his third knee surgery. To rank him ahead of Howard at this point just doesn't make sense. It's not even certain that he will be better than Howard if he stays healthy and if he stays in good condition... and those are both big ifs at this point.

[JamStone]

I didn't say Bynum's low post offense was perfect. I wasn't comparing his low post game to Tim Duncan's. The point was that his ability to score in the low post on offense made him better on offense than Dwight Howard.

Dwight Howard struggled to score on single coverage by guys like Rasheed Wallace, who is nowhere near as strong and Jason Maxiell, who gives up about 5-6 inches to Howard.

And, this past season, Bynum not consistently playing 35+ mpg wasn't as much a conditioning problem as it was a foul trouble problem. He had a four game stretch, including back-to-back games, where he played 40 minutes, 42 minutes, 36 minutes, and 38 minutes, all of them on the road.

Conditioning was not only much improved, it was to the point where it's supposed to be at for a starting center his age. Conditioning should not be an issue.

[Indazone]

If you look at the last 10 NBA championships with the exception of the Celtics. You always take a great big man and build around him. Lakers won with Shaq. Spurs won with Duncan. I think that's 9 titles with the exception being the Pistons.

I would take the big man Howard. The guy is a true center. Stoudamire he's good but he isn't as strong as Howard nor does he play with his back to the basket. Howard is simply gold in the post.

[HeyIt'sMe]

I didn't say Bynum's low post offense was perfect. I wasn't comparing his low post game to Tim Duncan's. The point was that his ability to score in the low post on offense made him better on offense than Dwight Howard.

Dwight Howard struggled to score on single coverage by guys like Rasheed Wallace, who is nowhere near as strong and Jason Maxiell, who gives up about 5-6 inches to Howard.

And, this past season, Bynum not consistently playing 35+ mpg wasn't as much a conditioning problem as it was a foul trouble problem. He had a four game stretch, including back-to-back games, where he played 40 minutes, 42 minutes, 36 minutes, and 38 minutes, all of them on the road.

Conditioning was not only much improved, it was to the point where it's supposed to be at for a starting center his age. Conditioning should not be an issue.

The Pistons play Dwight well. Them and Yao... gotta give them credit.

I'm just saying let's see Bynum play a full season before we go and crown him the next big thing. I'm sorry if a 35 game sample doesn't do it for me (and again, he wasn't all that great for all 35 games). He could be great, but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

[ThunderStix®]

re: Thunderstix's sig.

Thank him for what? For fucking up everything he touches?

I'm not going to get into a silly argument with you over that, the entire forum would be against me.

I put that there because I truly believe he is a great President, and I'm proud to support him.

I also wanted to show that I don't hate Bush and that I am in total support of the war unlike many others here at SpursTalk.




Just like you have the right to support Obama without being criticized, I have the right to support President Bush without being criticized.

Thank you. :)

[turiaf for president]

bynum's low post game is vastly improved from when he entered because he works with kareem. and he continues to work with kareem. bynum has something that howard doesnt have and prolly will be hard to learn. and thats footwork. sure bynum had his share of alley oops but he was the only post threat for a big man the lakers had in the beginning of the season. the reason he only averaged about 29 minutes per game is because of foul trouble as jamstone said and also because being so young the lakers wanted to platoon him with kwame brown (to showcase him in order to trade) and to keep him fresh.

conditioning yea howard is better. that kids is a freak of nature. but it will be hard for him to develop a touch from the ft line and have a consistent move. bynum ownned amare and biedrins early in the season and was continuing to improve as the season went on. as far as injury, he had a freak injury landing on a foot of another player. thats hardly a concern as far as long term injury woes.

i can see a bynum/howard rivalry for the next decade

[turiaf for president]

spin moves and ownnns kaman on D

http://www.youtube.com/v/5_gH72uDLkg&hl=en&fs=1

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm not going to get into a silly argument with you over that, the entire forum would be against me.

I put that there because I truly believe he is a great President, and I'm proud to support him.

I also wanted to show that I don't hate Bush and that I am in total support of the war unlike many others here at SpursTalk.




Just like you have the right to support Obama without being criticized, I have the right to support President Bush without being criticized.

Thank you. :)

Ignorance IS a bliss.

[JamStone]

The Pistons play Dwight well. Them and Yao... gotta give them credit.

I'm just saying let's see Bynum play a full season before we go and crown him the next big thing. I'm sorry if a 35 game sample doesn't do it for me (and again, he wasn't all that great for all 35 games). He could be great, but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

I wasn't crowning Bynum anything. I've said he's not that far behind Dwight Howard, and that Bynum's offense is better than Howard's because Bynum has better scoring moves in the low post. You really aren't disputing that.

I didn't once say Bynum was the better overall player. I said he's not far behind. It doesn't take a full season to make a claim like that.

[ThunderStix®]

Ignorance IS a bliss.

So you think I'm ignorant because I support Bush? great, you are an American, and you have that right to your own opinion.

I could give you a great argument over that, but like i said, the entire forum would attack me, it would be absolutely fruitless.

I can't imagen what would happen if I said someone was ignorant for supporting Obama.