If the Spurs somehow got Javtokas to sign...

[Buddy Holly]

Bonner + Oberto for Nocioni. :toast

[honestfool84]

that would be nice..

[jason1301]

Bonner + Oberto for Nocioni. :toast

i don't think javtokas can play in the NBA

i have seen him play in Panathinaikos, not worth it.

[MannyIsGod]

Why not Bonner+Oberto for Jordan's DNA so that we can just clone him instead? I mean since we're pulling bullshit out of the air..

[MannyIsGod]

And whats really stupid is that thinking the Spurs would only do that if they could get Jav to sign. WTF?

[ShoogarBear]

Javtokas is not better than Oberto.

[T Park]

why would th e bulls do that? What makes anyone think javtokas wants to come to the spurs?

[DPG21920]

why would th e bulls do that? What makes anyone think javtokas wants to come to the spurs?

I think the Bulls would do that for many reasons (take Javtokas out of the equation):

The Bulls are a young team desperate for veteran leadership. Not only do they have a new coach that would need help in the locker room, they have a need for a seasoned center. So it not only fills a positional need, it fills a leadership need.

Secondly, they are loaded at the 2/3 position. They have a need at the 4/5 position and guys who can shoot the 3 (Bonner) and set good screens along with pass and rebound (Oberto) would be a nice pick up especially at a combined 6M. Guys with their size and skill set usually cost much more. Just my opinion.

This is why I suggested a while ago a trade with Oberto/Bonner or sign and trade with KT/Bonner to the Bulls for Thabo and Tyrus. Same needs met, just trading experience/locker room for upside and positional needs.

[DPG21920]

But now that we signed a SG (Mason) that makes my trade for Thabo unlikely.

[Blackjack]

But now that we signed a SG (Mason) that makes my trade for Thabo unlikely.

If the Spurs could get Thabo they would. They'd be fools to pass on him because of Mason.

With Bowen on his way out Thabo would be a great understudy, and give the Spurs some much needed versatility on both ends of the floor.

[DPG21920]

If the Spurs could get Thabo they would. They'd be fools to pass on him because of Mason.

With Bowen on his way out Thabo would be a great understudy, and give the Spurs some much needed versatility on both ends of the floor.

Why? Mason is a solid player both offensively and defensively that can help now. I would rather have Mason than Thabo, but if the trade I proposed would have been a possibility I would have done it because the total package would have been better.

No one on here is ever close when it comes to signings or trades, but I think the logic is good from most people. That is the point I was trying to make is that the reason the Bulls might do the trade initially proposed by the thread is because of the points I made.

[Blackjack]

Why? Mason is a solid player both offensively and defensively that can help now. I would rather have Mason than Thabo, but if the trade I proposed would have been a possibility I would have done it because the total package would have been better.

No one on here is ever close when it comes to signings or trades, but I think the logic is good from most people. That is the point I was trying to make is that the reason the Bulls might do the trade initially proposed by the thread is because of the points I made.

My point wasn't an either/or with Thabo and Mason. They could co-exist if the unlikely scenario ever presented itself.

Thabo is 6'7" and the only thing I know Mason does better is shoot the three. I'm not knocking Mason but Bowen needs a successor and 6'5" and under guys aren't going to get it done IMO. Thabo's defense is already there and he's already a similar player to D. Christie. It's not like you'd have to wait on him to contribute.

[wisnub]

I dont think Spurs can sign him, he still got contracts.... Anyway iit is a miracle that Spurs buy him out and with what money. Spurs cannot afford to bought Scola and Splitter contracts previously..what broke my heart was Rockets bought it just like that..just like that.

[remingtonbo2001]

Why not Bonner+Oberto for Jordan's DNA so that we can just clone him instead? I mean since we're pulling bullshit out of the air..

I didn't know that offer was on the table. We should inject the DNA in Manu and see what happens.

Jordan's DNA >>> Nocioni

[DPG21920]

My point wasn't an either/or with Thabo and Mason. They could co-exist if the unlikely scenario ever presented itself.

Thabo is 6'7" and the only thing I know Mason does better is shoot the three. I'm not knocking Mason but Bowen needs a successor and 6'5" and under guys aren't going to get it done IMO. Thabo's defense is already there and he's already a similar player to D. Christie. It's not like you'd have to wait on him to contribute.

The only way to get Thabo would be through a trade. I think with the pieces we drafted and signed via F.A. that is all but out the window. It was just a trade idea a long time ago before any F.A. signings or draft picks. Thabo would be nice and they could co-exist, but that is out the window.

[Bruno]

I think that Nocioni could be available because bulls have Deng and Nocioni contract is quite big. He isn't a that unrealistic option.
Nocioni contract goes over 2010 but he is decreasing and won't hurt a lot the 2010 plan. While I'm so-so about Nocioni after his last season, I think Spurs should try to get him.

Spurs offer could be around Bonner + Expirings (Vaughn + Udoka + Johnson S&T). I thin it could be enough to get him but if Bulls wants more, Spurs could add something like a 2011 first round pick.

[Mr. Body]

Yes, the Bulls would gladly get assraped for the Spurs' benefit.

[kobyz]

yeah! i definitely want Nocioni on our team, we necessary for help at SF with all the teams strong at this position and we only have the 38yo Bowen.
after they sign Deng it will not be clever to pay 8 million per year for 4 years to another SF, they will shop him for a shorter contracts
we can offer the bulls Oberto, bonner and Udoka

[AusSpursFan]

The only way to get Thabo would be through a trade. I think with the pieces we drafted and signed via F.A. that is all but out the window. It was just a trade idea a long time ago before any F.A. signings or draft picks. Thabo would be nice and they could co-exist, but that is out the window.

I totally agree, youth, athleticism and D. Nocioni, I just don't like the guy, besides he gets paid too much anyway.

[mrspurs]

keep tp and td, then trade everyone on the spurs roster for everyone on the lakers roster.......and boom we are back in the WCF

[urunobili]

Noce would be the perfect answer if the Rockets get Artest

[MajorMike]

Them Argies are scrubs.

[tav1]

I think that Nocioni could be available because bulls have Deng and Nocioni contract is quite big. He isn't a that unrealistic option.
Nocioni contract goes over 2010 but he is decreasing and won't hurt a lot the 2010 plan. While I'm so-so about Nocioni after his last season, I think Spurs should try to get him.

Spurs offer could be around Bonner + Expirings (Vaughn + Udoka + Johnson S&T). I thin it could be enough to get him but if Bulls wants more, Spurs could add something like a 2011 first round pick.

Bruno, Noce kinda stunk last season. I'm not sure he's worth his contract.

[The Truth #6]

The FO does not operate this way when making moves. They seem to either avoid moves altogether or pursue actions without taking risk, or so it seems. I wonder if that is the reason that only teams with former Spurs or the moron Isiah would deal with them. The other moments we make deals is when we give away our assets at the lowest possible value, at which point we'll deal with anyone.

I wonder if we make moves to fit around the Big 3, or if they're moves to fit with personality of the FO.

[hater]

nocioni is a stud. please, why would they trade for 2 fuckin scubs

[Kori Ellis]

Why would anyone think Javtokas is good enough to be in the NBA?

[Buddy Holly]

As a backup, why not?

And the only reason I included him was because he's a center the Spurs have rights to.

If Oberto is traded, for anyone or anything, we'd need a player to fill his role in our lacking center position.

[Kermit]

Why would anyone think Javtokas is good enough to be in the NBA?

The same people who think that any team in the NBA would want to trade for Matt Bonner.

[SenorSpur]

Why would anyone think Javtokas is good enough to be in the NBA?

If he were, wouldn't he have come over by now. Also, I'm sure the $$$ he's making in Europe far exceed anything he can command over here.

[Kori Ellis]

As a backup, why not?


Because he's horrible?

[VaSpursFan]

if the spurs truly wanted this guy, he would have been here by now.

let's face reality, javtokie will never be a spur.

[Buddy Holly]

Because he's horrible?

Well, I haven't watched enough of the guy to form any real opinion. I've seen a few basic highlights but you're probably correct.

[Kori Ellis]

Well he's probably not horrible exactly. But I'm not sure he'd get off the bench in San Antonio.

[pad300]

Why would anyone think Javtokas is good enough to be in the NBA?

Off the top of my head, spurs:
Elson
Jackie Butler
Oberto (Yeah he's got lots of BBIQ, he's got less athleticism than I do)
Horry (07/08 only)

non-spurs
Chris Andersen
Chris Mihm
David Harrison
Zaza Pachulia
Shelden Williams
...
The list goes on...

[Bruno]

Bruno, Noce kinda stunk last season. I'm not sure he's worth his contract.

His bad year and his quite big contract are reasons why his trade value is quite low.

Word is that Bulls have offered Nocioni+Simmons+1st round pick to Kings for Brad Miller. If Spurs wants Nocioni, they have a shot to get him.

[The Truth #6]

They would probably want Ian, money, a first rounder, and something else...I can't see us getting involved in this, especially considering Noce's contract. Wouldn't that mess up their mythical 2010 plan?

[DPG21920]

We would have to give up a big in order to do this.

[DPG21920]

and possibly another veteran to help out in the locker room and play D.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Word is that Bulls have offered Nocioni+Simmons+1st round pick to Kings for Brad Miller.

:wow

[tav1]

His bad year and his quite big contract are reasons why his trade value is quite low.

Word is that Bulls have offered Nocioni+Simmons+1st round pick to Kings for Brad Miller. If Spurs wants Nocioni, they have a shot to get him.

That seems like a pretty good deal for the Kings as a rebuilding move. I'd probably take that if I were Petrie. Miller is not nearly the same player he used to be. I'm not sure what Paxson is thinking.

[DPG21920]

His bad year and his quite big contract are reasons why his trade value is quite low.

Word is that Bulls have offered Nocioni+Simmons+1st round pick to Kings for Brad Miller. If Spurs wants Nocioni, they have a shot to get him.

Makes perfect sense. I knew they would be looking for a veteran big. Which was why I wanted the Spurs to do a S&T with KT/Bonner for Thabo and Tyrus. I would love Noc, but I just do not know if we can afford to give up a big.

[tav1]

I wonder what other Bulls are on the block? I'd guess Gordon, Sefolosha and Thomas are all available for the right price. If that is the case, I'd consider making a move for Thomas and Sefolosha, even if it cost the Spurs Mahinmi.

[O-Factor]

I'd love to have nocioni, just not sure on how to accquire him.

[ss1986v2]

Makes perfect sense. I knew they would be looking for a veteran big. Which was why I wanted the Spurs to do a S&T with KT/Bonner for Thabo and Tyrus. I would love Noc, but I just do not know if we can afford to give up a big.
again, i dont see any value in the KT/bonner package, and especially not for that package. the bulls value both thabo and TT at more than said package, and this deal has them including both?

look at what they are offering for miller: simmons (who has next to zero value for the bulls), nocioni (a solid 6th man type, but making a good bit of cash over a rather long period of time, and playing a redundant role on the bulls), and a 1st (presumably to offset the issue of longterm salary being taken on). each one of those pieces has less value to the bulls than thabo (debatable with noc) or TT (easily), and it would be landing them a package much better than KT/bonner.

[DPG21920]

How do they value Tyrus and Thabo more than Nocioni? If Nocioni is a solid 6th man than Thabo and TT are further down the depth chart. They need veteran bigs, which is why deal for Brad Miller was offered. KT/Bonner = Brad Miller and Thabo/Tyrus = Nocioni imo.

[DPG21920]

Especially with how TT worked his way out of the rotation with his attitude.

[ss1986v2]

How do they value Tyrus and Thabo more than Nocioni? If Nocioni is a solid 6th man than Thabo and TT are further down the depth chart. They need veteran bigs, which is why deal for Brad Miller was offered. KT/Bonner = Brad Miller and Thabo/Tyrus = Nocioni imo.
nocioni is used as a 3/4 in chicago. so the last two years, hes been leaching minutes from TT, and bulls fans have been pretty livid. its seems to be part of the unrest from the whole skiles fiasco (not playing the kids, thabo and TT particularly). and with the addition of gooden (a better pf than noc, and the starter going into the season from the looks of it), you can probably bet that noc is going to be seeing even less minutes at pf.

so that leaves backing up deng, who is good for 30-35 minutes per. that doesnt leave a lot of minutes for noc. and at 8 mil next season, thats a good bit of change to be spending on a 6th man who is fighting just to break the 20 minute mark. pax loves noc, but he loved him when his team was a 50 game winner fighting to get out of the 2nd round. he now may not be willing to pay that much for a player that doesnt have a clear spot right now (and if this sac rumor is true, he isnt).

as for thabo, depending on what happens with hinrich, gordon and hughes (any combination of which could be gone by the deadline next season or sooner), thabo looks like he may be one of their primary wings off the bench. after skiles got the boot and he stated getting some PT, he put up some very nice numbers:

25.3 mpg, 8.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 1.6 ast, 1.3 stl in jan
31.6 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.1 ast, 1.2 stl in feb
21.2 mpg, 8.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.4 ast, 0.7 stl in mar

hes a part of their future, not a throw in. as for the KT/bonner = miller and thabo/TT = noc, i guess we just simply arent close to seeing eye to eye on this situation. IMHO, miller > KT/bonner and thabo/TT > noc and both by a comfortable margin.

[DPG21920]

nocioni is used as a 3/4 in chicago. so the last two years, hes been leaching minutes from TT, and bulls fans have been pretty livid. its seems to be part of the unrest from the whole skiles fiasco (not playing the kids, thabo and TT particularly). and with the addition of gooden (a better pf than noc, and the starter going into the season from the looks of it), you can probably bet that noc is going to be seeing even less minutes at pf.

so that leaves backing up deng, who is good for 30-35 minutes per. that doesnt leave a lot of minutes for noc. and at 8 mil next season, thats a good bit of change to be spending on a 6th man who is fighting just to break the 20 minute mark. pax loves noc, but he loved him when his team was a 50 game winner fighting to get out of the 2nd round. he now may not be willing to pay that much for a player that doesnt have a clear spot right now (and if this sac rumor is true, he isnt).

as for thabo, depending on what happens with hinrich, gordon and hughes (any combination of which could be gone by the deadline next season or sooner), thabo looks like he may be one of their primary wings off the bench. after skiles got the boot and he stated getting some PT, he put up some very nice numbers:

25.3 mpg, 8.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 1.6 ast, 1.3 stl in jan
31.6 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.1 ast, 1.2 stl in feb
21.2 mpg, 8.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.4 ast, 0.7 stl in mar

hes a part of their future, not a throw in. as for the KT/bonner = miller and thabo/TT = noc, i guess we just simply arent close to seeing eye to eye on this situation. IMHO, miller > KT/bonner and thabo/TT > noc and both by a comfortable margin.

You make some valid points, but we both are making assumptions about what coaches and gm's think. I think the reason I like Noc>Thabo/TT is because, as you mention, Nocioni helps a team win now, helps you compete for a title. I am not sure that TT and Thabo do that for the Bulls. They could help the Spurs more, but Nocioni is better than both of them in that regard.

Miller is probably better than KT/Bonner, but not by much.

[ss1986v2]

You make some valid points, but we both are making assumptions about what coaches and gm's think. I think the reason I like Noc>Thabo/TT is because, as you mention, Nocioni helps a team win now, helps you compete for a title. I am not sure that TT and Thabo do that for the Bulls. They could help the Spurs more, but Nocioni is better than both of them in that regard.

Miller is probably better than KT/Bonner, but not by much.
im not sure you can say that the bulls are competing for a title right now. even if they recover from last year, i dont think they can hang with boston, detroit, orlando, phili, or toronto unless both rose and TT have HUGE breakout-type years. thats why i dont think noc holds as much value as he did two years ago (that and his rather poor showing last season). that team was on the cusp of really being something good, then the wheels fell off, and we have to wait and see what happens from here on out.

i can see how noc on the spurs could be a strong fit, and i love chapu and his official theme song:

2s5-u7PEMYQ

but i bet if you took a poll of gms around the league, you would be hard pressed to find many (if any) that would take noc over both thabo and TT. with noc you get a solid 6th man type, on a semi-reasonable priced, but long contract. with thabo and TT, you get a top-5 pick big whose still developing and oozing with potential while already a half decent rotation player (good for about 7 & 5 in less than 20 mpg right now, which is just a bit better than what we got out of our bigs last season production wise), and young wing who has shown he is a productive player, whose long, a solid defender, can rebound and has some above average ball handling ability (think a homeless mans manu, whose shown flashes of a poor mans manu).

if its a matter of getting one veteran, quality 6th man, or two young, quality rotations player with lots of upside, i take the latter almost every time, especially with how the spurs are currently constituted.

[DPG21920]

im not sure you can say that the bulls are competing for a title right now. even if they recover from last year, i dont think they can hang with boston, detroit, orlando, phili, or toronto unless both rose and TT have HUGE breakout-type years. thats why i dont think noc holds as much value as he did two years ago (that and his rather poor showing last season). that team was on the cusp of really being something good, then the wheels fell off, and we have to wait and see what happens from here on out.

i can see how noc on the spurs could be a strong fit, and i love chapu and his official theme song:

2s5-u7PEMYQ

but i bet if you took a poll of gms around the league, you would be hard pressed to find many (if any) that would take noc over both thabo and TT. with noc you get a solid 6th man type, on a semi-reasonable priced, but long contract. with thabo and TT, you get a top-5 pick big whose still developing and oozing with potential while already a half decent rotation player (good for about 7 & 5 in less than 20 mpg right now, which is just a bit better than what we got out of our bigs last season), and young wing who has shown he is a productive player, whose long, a solid defender, can rebound and has some above average ball handling ability (think a homeless mans manu, whose shown flashes of a poor mans manu).

if its a matter of getting one veteran, quality 6th man, or two young, quality rotations player with lots of upside, i take the latter almost every time, especially with how the spurs are currently constituted.

I think Nocioni would be a much better fit for the Spurs. Obviously I would take Thabo/TT. I think it is trading veteran leadership for "upside". Thabo is not even a poor mans Manu. He is a productive, defensive player. TT could be a very good player, but what is his ceiling? If you do not think the Bulls could compete for the title, then my trade makes no sense because you do not need veteran leadership. But why would they get rid of Nocioni for Brad Miller if they did not think they can win now? It is not a long-term move

[DPG21920]

GM's that are not concerned with realistically competing for a title would take TT/Thabo all day, but ones that need that piece to get over the hump would rather have Noc imo.

[DROB4EVER]

My point wasn't an either/or with Thabo and Mason. They could co-exist if the unlikely scenario ever presented itself.

Thabo is 6'7" and the only thing I know Mason does better is shoot the three. I'm not knocking Mason but Bowen needs a successor and 6'5" and under guys aren't going to get it done IMO. Thabo's defense is already there and he's already a similar player to D. Christie. It's not like you'd have to wait on him to contribute.

Thabo sucks. He is just an avg offensive player and is a sloppy ball handler. He was over hyped as a rookie.

[DPG21920]

Thabo does not suck at all. He is not an all-star, but a nice young player that would of fit in with the Spurs at the 2/3.

[I. Hustle]

Why do we want Jakusov again?

[DPG21920]

He was saying if we trade Oberto/... for Nocioni then we would need another center and Javtokas would be it.

[I. Hustle]

I just want to say Jakusov Jak - us - ov

Jack us off

oh well nevermind

[ss1986v2]

I think Nocioni would be a much better fit for the Spurs. Obviously I would take Thabo/TT. I think it is trading veteran leadership for "upside". Thabo is not even a poor mans Manu. He is a productive, defensive player. TT could be a very good player, but what is his ceiling? If you do not think the Bulls could compete for the title, then my trade makes no sense because you do not need veteran leadership. But why would they get rid of Nocioni for Brad Miller if they did not think they can win now? It is not a long-term move
again, i said a homeless mans manu right now. but you wouldnt qualify 11 ppg, 5 rpg, 3 ast, 1 stl, with solid defense, decent outside shooting, and above average ball handling as a poor mans manu?

as for the miller trade, it makes a bit of sense on a couple of levels. first off, it clears a positional log jam, while filling a void. you move noc, which frees up minutes at both the 3 and the 4, allowing more time for both thabo and TT. it also fills a need at center where you have a rather weak rotation (noah, plus gooden/TT playing a bit small, with aaron gray glued to the bench). just because you might not have a shot at a title, doesnt mean you want to field an inferior product. unless you happen to be miami...

it also makes some sense financially. while miller is more expensive right now, his total salary is actually less than that of noc (24 mi over two year vs 29 mil of 4 years). and his salary next season is only 1.6 mil more than the package the bulls would be sending out. brad miller along with larry hughes would also give the bull about 26 mil in expiring contracts going into the hallowed 2010 offseason. they might be able to swing one or both of those deals down the road to team a team looking to quickly shed salary.

[DPG21920]

They could get the same amount of money off the books with KT/Oberto and Hughes in 2010.

I would consider 11ppg, 5 rpg, 3 asst, 1 stl a poor mans Nocioni.

[Admidave50]

Javoktas suck, stop with this shit!

[ss1986v2]

They could get the same amount of money off the books with KT/Oberto and Hughes in 2010.

I would consider 11ppg, 5 rpg, 3 asst, 1 stl a poor mans Nocioni.
i thought we were on thabo/TT for KT/bonner and miller for noc/simmons. if we are debating KT/bonner for noc now, then i think thats a bit closer, but still not ideal for the bulls. KT would be solid off the bench for chicago (similar to what joe smith gave them the 1st half of last year), but he doesnt offer near the production of miller (6-7 ppg & 6-7 rpg vs 10-15 ppg & 8-10 rpg). bonner holds negative value here, offering the bulls zero production, especially if simmons is still on the roster.

as for the 2010 expirings, its not just about clearing the money off the books, its packaging those pieces in trade. the fact that the money is still off doesnt mean its as valuable as a larger expiring, which miller has compared to the KT/bonner package. its not like its a significant amount or anything (about 5 mil give or take), but its still of lesser value, even if only slightly.

the spurs probably have to offer a bit more in said package to get things done, with 1 or 2 future seconds having to suffice (not able to trade a 1st until 2011). but even then, i dont like it more for the bull than the miller for noc/simmons deal. now i think the additional 1st rounder is a bit much from the bulls, but if moderately protected (lottery), and with the current price of mid-to-late picks, its not too much to ask for with sac committing to chapus deal.

as for that aforementioned stat line being a poor mans noc, his career numbers of 12 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.3 ast, 0.4 stl would seem to point otherwise...

[DPG21920]

ya those are noc's career numbers, but his numbers were better than that last year in an "off year" and thabo's were no where close to that for the season.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Why would anyone think Javtokas is good enough to be in the NBA?

Javtokas is not great player for Euroleague level but look at many big men in NBA. Javtokas is easily NBA level big man. Most big men in NBA are really terrible. he would not be impact player in NBA but he is definite good enough for NBA standard for big man.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

The same people who think that any team in the NBA would want to trade for Matt Bonner.

This is stupid. Javtokas is a center and plays as a center. He is banger, rebounder, shot blocker with great athletic ability. Bonner is nothing like him. Bonner is 6-10 player with good shooting and 3 point range and can do nothing else in court. In NBA player like Javtokas is much more valuable than player like Bonner who is one dimension player.

[DPG21920]

i thought we were on thabo/TT for KT/bonner and miller for noc/simmons. if we are debating KT/bonner for noc now, then i think thats a bit closer, but still not ideal for the bulls. KT would be solid off the bench for chicago (similar to what joe smith gave them the 1st half of last year), but he doesnt offer near the production of miller (6-7 ppg & 6-7 rpg vs 10-15 ppg & 8-10 rpg). bonner holds negative value here, offering the bulls zero production, especially if simmons is still on the roster.

as for the 2010 expirings, its not just about clearing the money off the books, its packaging those pieces in trade. the fact that the money is still off doesnt mean its as valuable as a larger expiring, which miller has compared to the KT/bonner package. its not like its a significant amount or anything (about 5 mil give or take), but its still of lesser value, even if only slightly.

the spurs probably have to offer a bit more in said package to get things done, with 1 or 2 future seconds having to suffice (not able to trade a 1st until 2011). but even then, i dont like it more for the bull than the miller for noc/simmons deal. now i think the additional 1st rounder is a bit much from the bulls, but if moderately protected (lottery), and with the current price of mid-to-late picks, its not too much to ask for with sac committing to chapus deal.

as for that aforementioned stat line being a poor mans noc, his career numbers of 12 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.3 ast, 0.4 stl would seem to point otherwise...

This is what I said. Originally before any of the Spurs draftees or F.A. signings I said I see a need that can be filled through a trade with the Bulls. The KT/Bonner for Thabo/TT. Since the Spurs signed others and drafted, I said that KT/Bonner for Nocioni would make more sense for both teams now.

[ss1986v2]

ya those are noc's career numbers, but his numbers were better than that last year in an "off year" and thabo's were no where close to that for the season.
he posted 13.2 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.2 ast, 0.3 stl last year. one more point, one less rebound, with a negligible decline in the other 2, while shooting his lowest percentages since his rookie year. id say its about the same, even if you dont consider the shooting percentages.

as for thabo, again, thats why i said he has the potential to be that kind of player. i see that as his ceiling in the next couple of years. id put him in the 10-11 ppg, 4-5 rpg, 2-3 ast, 1-1.5 stl range given ~25 mpg with another year or so under his belt. especially when he put that very stat line up over a 3 month stretch last season.

[DPG21920]

Since he did not hit Noc's numbers and Noc's numbers are not anywhere close to Manu's, then Thabo is a poor mans Nocioni.

But that is besides the point. It does not look like the Spurs are making a move like this, so we will just have to see how they shape the roster.

[ss1986v2]

Since he did not hit Noc's numbers and Noc's numbers are not anywhere close to Manu's, then Thabo is a poor mans Nocioni.

But that is besides the point. It does not look like the Spurs are making a move like this, so we will just have to see how they shape the roster.
we agree. but im not talking about last year. i called thabo a homeless mans manu with regards to his combination of stats/current skill set, which would probably equate to a poor mans chapu. so im not sure what you are arguing at this point.

[DPG21920]

If you look at last years number comparisons Nocioni was much better. Considering Nocioni shot his "worst" and had an off year, lets look at the number comparisons:

Thabo: 20.8 minutes, 6.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.9 assist, .9 steals, .4 blocks, 42% FG, 72% FT and 33% 3 PT.

Nocioni: 24.6 minutes, 13.2 points, 4.2 rebounds, 1.2 assist, .3 steals, .5 blocks, 43% FG, 80% FT and 36% 3 PT.

So even in Nocioni's worst shooting year, he shot better than Thabo. Nocioni is a good defender as well. If Thabo could reach Nocioni that would be the best he could do.

[DPG21920]

we agree. but im not talking about last year. i called thabo a homeless mans manu with regards to his combination of stats/current skill set, which would probably equate to a poor mans chapu. so im not sure what you are arguing at this point.

I am just saying you can not call Thabo a poor mans Manu because he will never be that good. He might be able to reach Nocioni's level, but that is the max imo. That is why I said a poor mans Nocioni. If he can only reach the Nocioni level that that is the poor man reference. That is all. No biggie.

[The Truth #6]

Does anyone know the last time we did a trade that wasn't right before the trading deadline? Was it the Danny Ferry/Ron Mercer deal?

[ss1986v2]

I am just saying you can not call Thabo a poor mans Manu because he will never be that good. He might be able to reach Nocioni's level, but that is the max imo. That is why I said a poor mans Nocioni. If he can only reach the Nocioni level that that is the poor man reference. That is all. No biggie.
but thats the exact point ive been making from the start...

[lefty]

If you look at last years number comparisons Nocioni was much better. Considering Nocioni shot his "worst" and had an off year, lets look at the number comparisons:

Thabo: 20.8 minutes, 6.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.9 assist, .9 steals, .4 blocks, 42% FG, 72% FT and 33% 3 PT.

Nocioni: 24.6 minutes, 13.2 points, 4.2 rebounds, 1.2 assist, .3 steals, .5 blocks, 43% FG, 80% FT and 36% 3 PT.

So even in Nocioni's worst shooting year, he shot better than Thabo. Nocioni is a good defender as well. If Thabo could reach Nocioni that would be the best he could do.

Plus, Nocioni can be a little pest in the playoffs.

I would like to get him

[DPG21920]

but thats the exact point ive been making from the start...

My bad then, I thought you were saying he was a poor mans Manu, meaning he can reach Manu's level one day as his ceiling.

Its funny, it is like we are 2 GM's trying to come to terms on a deal. I wonder if this is sort of how they discuss things?

[DPG21920]

I got confused with your usage of "homeless man" and "poor man".

[I. Hustle]

Why don't the Spurs just buy Europe and use it the way they use their D-League?

[ss1986v2]

I got confused with your usage of "homeless man" and "poor man".
sorry about that. and i dont want to come off as being a prick with my arguing. as ive said before, i just enjoy a good debate (a civil argument if you will).

i usually take "poor man" as a lesser player with similar production/skill set. something like "calderon is a poor mans nash". "homeless man" would be the same thing, but far worse than a "poor mans" version. something along the lines of "steve blake is a homeless mans nash" (although that ones not as good, i just can be arsed to think of another one).

generally, contract would also play a part in the equation. a "poor mans" version of a player would be as close to said player without spending near the money. a "homeless mans" version would be even less costly.

my point about thabo being a "homeless mans" manu with the potential to be a "poor mans" manu has as much to do with his skill set as it does with his production. hes an off-guard with decent defense who has the length to handle the 3 spot, and the handles to take some ball handling duties (although hes far from ideal in that regard). he rebounds well for his positions, can distribute a little, and can come up with a steal every now and then. doesnt that description sound a little bit like manus skill set?

put it this way: if i gave you 2 mil dollars to spend, and told you to bring me the player that best resembles manus skill set, who would you bring me?

[Budkin]

Javtokas sucks. I don't care how many shitty Youtube videos you post of him making layups.

[Kermit]

This is stupid. Javtokas is a center and plays as a center. He is banger, rebounder, shot blocker with great athletic ability. Bonner is nothing like him. Bonner is 6-10 player with good shooting and 3 point range and can do nothing else in court. In NBA player like Javtokas is much more valuable than player like Bonner who is one dimension player.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You have no idea what I said there, do you? Here, this will help.

www.dictionary.com

[DPG21920]

sorry about that. and i dont want to come off as being a prick with my arguing. as ive said before, i just enjoy a good debate (a civil argument if you will).

i usually take "poor man" as a lesser player with similar production/skill set. something like "calderon is a poor mans nash". "homeless man" would be the same thing, but far worse than a "poor mans" version. something along the lines of "steve blake is a homeless mans nash" (although that ones not as good, i just can be arsed to think of another one).

generally, contract would also play a part in the equation. a "poor mans" version of a player would be as close to said player without spending near the money. a "homeless mans" version would be even less costly.

my point about thabo being a "homeless mans" manu with the potential to be a "poor mans" manu has as much to do with his skill set as it does with his production. hes an off-guard with decent defense who has the length to handle the 3 spot, and the handles to take some ball handling duties (although hes far from ideal in that regard). he rebounds well for his positions, can distribute a little, and can come up with a steal every now and then. doesnt that description sound a little bit like manus skill set?

put it this way: if i gave you 2 mil dollars to spend, and told you to bring me the player that best resembles manus skill set, who would you bring me?

I did not think you were being a prick, we were just having a discussion. I get what you meant now about the difference between the two. I just do not know who you can get for any amount of money with Manu's skill set. But, that is all besides the point. It looks like that scenario is out the window. Right now, my best hope is that we get Boone or Williams from NJ for our TE. I just do not know if that is what NJ would be looking for though.

[Bruno]

I don't want starting a new thread about that, because I don't have a clue if Spurs are interested in Nocioni, but Bulls' beat writer is reporting that Chicago is looking to trade Nocioni in order to resign Gordon.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080731-luol-deng-ben-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4479290.story

So to sum up :
- Bulls want to dump Nocioni.
- Spurs were interested in him last summer.
- Spurs can offer a package like Bonner+Vaughn+Udoka+Johnson (S&T) for Nocioni , that will allow Bulls to save money this year and in the following ones. Spurs can also trade the TE for Cedric Simmons.

Connect the dots ...

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I don't want starting a new thread about that, because I don't have a clue if Spurs are interested in Nocioni, but Bulls' beat writer is reporting that Chicago is looking to trade Nocioni in order to resign Gordon.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080731-luol-deng-ben-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4479290.story

So to sum up :
- Bulls want to dump Nocioni.
- Spurs were interested in him last summer.
- Spurs can offer a package like Bonner+Vaughn+Udoka+Johnson (S&T) for Nocioni , that will allow Bulls to save money this year and in the following ones. Spurs can also trade the TE for Cedric Simmons.

Connect the dots ...

Sounds good. Nice job, Bruno. :tu

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

You have no idea what I said there, do you? Here, this will help.

www.dictionary.com

I'm more of a www.m-w.com person meself.

[DPG21920]

I don't want starting a new thread about that, because I don't have a clue if Spurs are interested in Nocioni, but Bulls' beat writer is reporting that Chicago is looking to trade Nocioni in order to resign Gordon.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080731-luol-deng-ben-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4479290.story

So to sum up :
- Bulls want to dump Nocioni.
- Spurs were interested in him last summer.
- Spurs can offer a package like Bonner+Vaughn+Udoka+Johnson (S&T) for Nocioni , that will allow Bulls to save money this year and in the following ones. Spurs can also trade the TE for Cedric Simmons.

Connect the dots ...

That would be perfect!

[DPG21920]

I don't want starting a new thread about that, because I don't have a clue if Spurs are interested in Nocioni, but Bulls' beat writer is reporting that Chicago is looking to trade Nocioni in order to resign Gordon.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080731-luol-deng-ben-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4479290.story

So to sum up :
- Bulls want to dump Nocioni.
- Spurs were interested in him last summer.
- Spurs can offer a package like Bonner+Vaughn+Udoka+Johnson (S&T) for Nocioni , that will allow Bulls to save money this year and in the following ones. Spurs can also trade the TE for Cedric Simmons.

Connect the dots ...

As posted earlier though, I think the Bulls are looking for a veteran big, which is why those 2 players you mentioned from the Bulls might be going to the Kings for Brad Miller.

[tav1]

I don't want starting a new thread about that, because I don't have a clue if Spurs are interested in Nocioni, but Bulls' beat writer is reporting that Chicago is looking to trade Nocioni in order to resign Gordon.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080731-luol-deng-ben-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4479290.story

So to sum up :
- Bulls want to dump Nocioni.
- Spurs were interested in him last summer.
- Spurs can offer a package like Bonner+Vaughn+Udoka+Johnson (S&T) for Nocioni , that will allow Bulls to save money this year and in the following ones. Spurs can also trade the TE for Cedric Simmons.

Connect the dots ...

Man, I'd hate to lose Udoka. I'm not convinced Noce is much better, but he's much more expensive. And Udoka has a year in the system.

If the Bulls trade Noce, wouldn't it be a straight salary dump? If so, why not move him to GS who can absorp him with their TE?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Man, I'd hate to lose Udoka. I'm not convinced Noce is much better, but he's much more expensive. And Udoka has a year in the system.

If the Bulls trade Noce, wouldn't it be a straight salary dump? If so, why not move him to GS who can absorp him with their TE?

Golden State's trade exception already expired.

[tav1]

Golden State's trade exception already expired.

Gotcha.

Noce still messes with the 2010 plan.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Crap, that's true.

[tav1]

If Javtokas continues to play well during the Olympics we might be able to move him for a 2nd round draft pick.

[DPG21920]

Gotcha.

Noce still messes with the 2010 plan.

How? He is off the books next year

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

How? He is off the books next year

Wtf Nocioni has 5 more years.

[tav1]

Nocioni's contract is for longer and he's paid more than I'd want to trade...

[DPG21920]

HoopsHype says it is done after this next year.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm

[ChumpDumper]

When hoopshype doesn't know the exact amounts of the salaries, they leave the space blank.

One of the most complete listings of current and past contract terms can be found here:

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/index.html

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

HoopsHype says it is done after this next year.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm


Andres Nocioni agreed to a five-year deal to return to the Chicago Bulls, and there is a team option for a sixth year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2928061

[tav1]

HoopsHype says it is done after this next year.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm

Curious. I think the site is inaccurate on this account. But if does have only 1 year left, then a trade for him makes more sense.

The problem, of course, is that even if we did trade for him do we have any money to resign him? No. The MLE is probably not enough given the Euro. But 8 million is way the hell too much if he continues to play like he did last season.

[DPG21920]

When hoopshype doesn't know the exact amounts of the salaries, they leave the space blank.

One of the most complete listings of current and past contract terms can be found here:

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/index.html

Makes sense..........

[Bruno]

Nocioni's contract is decreasing.
His salary for the next year will be $8M but his salary for 2010-2011 will be $6.85M.

Trading for Nocioni will eat some 2010 cap space but you had to consider that you will have one more solid player in 2010 to build around. You also had to consider that Spurs will have a better team in 2008 and 2009.

Spurs aren't that rigid about the 2010 plan. They have offered a contract longer than 2 years too Najera this summer. Nocioni's contract is quite 2010 plan friendly. I don't know if Spurs have a shot to get him but not going after him because of the 2010 plan would be a mistake.

[diego]

im a chapu-loving argie, but i think its kind of a risky bet for the spurs under those terms. he would definitely bring more emotion and energy to this team though, but i agree with tav1 that udoka has good odds to bring similar offense and maybe better defense for a 1/4 of the money.

there were times at the end of the season and in the PO's were udoka was chipping in on both ends beautifully, but they were just slightly overshadowed by out of sync shots (he'd either rush or hesitate) and cheap fouls. what was worse, at times he looked like he wanted to disappear.in that sense, chapu would assert his will a lot more, for better or for worse.

still too risky, i'd look to improve in other areas, namely bigs. the only bigs we have that KNOW how to play D are old and unathletic- Duncan is the only guy getting blocks, and he is too important to focus on that (foultrouble). the rest are unproven, and only mahinmi known for D, which is even said to be decreasing in the D league. i dont know who that blake pg-3pt shooter guy is, but thats also a good project for this team, which funnily enough now feels like it has few shooters, when only barry and horry left... i guess thats how good they were.

[tav1]

Nocioni's contract is decreasing.
His salary for the next year will be $8M but his salary for 2010-2011 will be $6.85M.

Trading for Nocioni will eat some 2010 cap space but you had to consider that you will have one more solid player in 2010 to build around. You also had to consider that Spurs will have a better team in 2008 and 2009.

Spurs aren't that rigid about the 2010 plan. They have offered a contract longer than 2 years too Najera this summer. Nocioni's contract is quite 2010 plan friendly. I don't know if Spurs have a shot to get him but not going after him because of the 2010 plan would be a mistake.

+1.

I was assuming a contract of incremental increases. If it works backwards, then it's not such a big deal, as you suggest.

Do you think Noce's 06-07 season or his 07-08 season was the abberation? I'd guess he's somewhere in between.

[tav1]

im a chapu-loving argie, but i think its kind of a risky bet for the spurs under those terms. he would definitely bring more emotion and energy to this team though, but i agree with tav1 that udoka has good odds to bring similar offense and maybe better defense for a 1/4 of the money.

there were times at the end of the season and in the PO's were udoka was chipping in on both ends beautifully, but they were just slightly overshadowed by out of sync shots (he'd either rush or hesitate) and cheap fouls. what was worse, at times he looked like he wanted to disappear.in that sense, chapu would assert his will a lot more, for better or for worse.

still too risky, i'd look to improve in other areas, namely bigs. the only bigs we have that KNOW how to play D are old and unathletic- Duncan is the only guy getting blocks, and he is too important to focus on that (foultrouble). the rest are unproven, and only mahinmi known for D, which is even said to be decreasing in the D league. i dont know who that blake pg-3pt shooter guy is, but thats also a good project for this team, which funnily enough now feels like it has few shooters, when only barry and horry left... i guess thats how good they were.

Udoka is actually 1/8 the money.

Improving in other areas is rather difficult at this point. The FA well has dried up and the Spurs have too few assets to move. I spend too much time hoping the Spurs trade for a young, D-League eligible player that they could develop next season. Or--and I know we have a bunch of rookies in camp already--that a player like Bill Walker won't make the cut and we can sign him for Austin...

[T Park]

Getting Nocioni would be fantasticly perfect.

Which means it aint happenin :depressed

[Bruno]

Do you think Noce's 06-07 season or his 07-08 season was the abberation? I'd guess he's somewhere in between.

The 07-08 bulls were a mess. It could have hurt Nocioni who is a glue guy. it's hard to glue bad pieces.

To me, the key to use well Nocioni is to play him at both forward spots.
He is at his best on the offensive end when he plays PF and is able to attack the basket against slow players. He is a true tweener.

[tav1]

Getting Nocioni would be fantasticly perfect.

Which means it aint happenin :depressed

Udoka was good as a small ball 4 last season, so we could probably find minutes for Noce and Udoka, if we kept him.

Noce would be a good match up against West and Nowitski, and maybe Odom. He could play sporadic minutes in the post agaist Gasol and be a bother him. He's a decent response to Artest.

Too bad we don't have the right assets.

[Bruno]

BTW, a great for salaries (and for other things) is ShamSports.
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/index.jsp

[tav1]

Nothing like expressing a greedy sentiment: Nocioni's contract is rich, maybe a team can talk Paxson into a deal for Nocioni and Thomas (as a sweetener). The Spurs won't be able to do this, but someone else might take this approach.