So, uh, about that windfall profits tax idea...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/1168.html


according to the Congressional Research Service (CRS), is that the 1980s windfall profits tax depressed the domestic production and extraction industry and furthered our dependence on foreign sources of oil.1

Kinda runs contradictory to the idea of Obama's to bring it back, don't you think?

More...


CRS also found the windfall profits tax had the effect of decreasing domestic production by 3 percent to 6 percent, thereby increasing American dependence on foreign oil sources by 8 percent to 16 percent. A side effect was declining, not increasing, tax collections. Figure 1 clearly shows that while the tax raised considerable revenue in the initial years following its enactment, those revenues declined to almost nothing as the domestic industry collapsed.

The 1980 windfall profits tax was also found to be highly burdensome for the industry to comply with and for the Internal Revenue Service to administer, especially in years when no revenue was raised. It seems unlikely that a new tax could be designed in a less burdensome fashion. Tax Foundation economists estimate that U.S. companies currently spend nearly $150 billion annually to comply with the federal income tax alone. Enacting a new windfall profits tax would add an additional layer of complexity to the federal tax system.

By the way, the same author of the referenced Congressional Research Office study was commissioned by a Democrat to do another study in March of 2006 on the effects of the windfall profits tax that was implemented during the 80s.

The above was highlighted in the final report provided to all members of Congress. So, what the fuck is Obama thinking?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So, I'm digging through the actual report, and it's creepy. Talk about history attempting to repeat itself (just shows the stupidity of Obama and Pelosi calling for the windfall profits tax). Here's some early highlights:

from Congressional debate on the Windfall Profits tax debate back when it was passed:



"The revenues resulting from these higher prices, however, would provide income to oil producers far in excees of what most of them originally anticipated when they drilled their wells and in excess of what they might now be expected to invest in energy production.

I believe Obama stated last week that the oil companies are profiting because of the situation, not because of any real novel management concepts.



Other motivations and factors underlying imposition of the windfall profits tax were that Domestic crude prices would rise to market levels that did not reflect competitive market forces but the market power of OPEC; and,
further, OPEC’s prices were projected to increase in real terms at
very high rates, usually assumed to be 3% per year.




The market price of oil was believed to be in a sense “unanticipated,” unearned, and unneeded for the profitability of the oil industry. Society should share in the economic return to natural resource production.

Obama stated last week that he didn't have a problem with $4 gas, just that the price blew up so quickly.

And yeah, that last part about everyone sharing in the cost...



! Oil is a natural resource whose long-run supply is fixed; it is not like other factors of production such as labor and capital. The stock of natural resources is fixed in the long run whereas the stock (or supply) of the other factors is variable. Since the stock of oil is fixed,some argued that high levels of industry income were not necessary to ensure adequate supplies. If low levels of income would ensure adequate oil supplies, then any industry income above that income earned from alternative use of industry resources could be deemed excessive (economic rents) and should be taxed away.

Yep, Obamism at its finest. They're making money! Tax them!



! Some believed oil industry income was excessive to start with due to the concentrated structure of the domestic oil industry and due to the fact that domestic price of oil was not a competitively determined price.


There's your tin foil hat theory for you, alive on the floor of Congress...



Additionally, it should be remembered that the WPT was enacted in the wake
of two oil shocks in the 1970s: (1) the 1973-1974 oil embargo, which raised oil prices fourfold and (2) the 1978-1979 Iranian revolution, which doubled oil prices, and created gasoline shortages (and long lines of motorists at the gasoline pumps).

Also there was a certain amount of public suspicion of the oil industry; suspicion that the energy crisis was not real but a contrivance of the industry in concert with OPEC for the purpose of profiteering.


Again, the modern liberal dogma is that Bush, Cheney, and big oil are conspiring to make all this money off everyone...

Separate section:



Distributional Equity (“Fairness”)

Another rationale for the windfall profit tax was equity or “fairness.” It was
estimated that oil price decontrol would cause a large redistribution of income from energy consumers to energy producers. Policymakers concluded that it was unfair for the oil industry and landowners to experience such sharp increases in income when so many consumers — particularly low-income consumers — would see a sharp increase in their energy bills. They believed that society at large, through the federal government’s policies, should also share in some of the income gains.

The fairness rationale was strongly influenced by the impact of higher energy
prices on poorer consumers. Although all energy consumers would experience a higher absolute burden due to higher oil prices, including higher electricity prices, natural gas prices, and coal prices, poorer people would experience a higher relative burden.

That is, in relation to their income, poorer persons spend more money on
energy and other necessities than higher income persons. Therefore, energy costs represented a higher proportion of low income persons’ budgets than high-income persons’ budgets — the burden from decontrol would be greater for low-income persons than from high-income persons.

The windfall profit tax was intended to be the instrument for achieving a more equitable redistribution of the income which would result from oil price decontrol. Underlying this instrument was the belief that the oil companies were entitled to a fair and reasonable return but not an “excessive” return, which was in any event determined by OPEC-set prices rather than competitive prices.

Other highlights:

* The projection was that $392 billion in tax revenue would be generated by the windfall profits tax. In actuality, only $80 billion was.

(AHF note: Obama is proposing a tax credit of $1000 per family just for fall 2008 paid for by a windfall profits tax. At $1000 per U.S. family, and an estimated 115 million families in the U.S., they would have to take in 115,000,000,000 in tax revenue to pay for Obama's vote buying, err, fall 2008 energy credit handout.

LMAO!

* Imports of foreign oil actually increased from 32% at the time to 38% in the twilight of the profits tax.

As of 2006, we imported 60% (!) of our oil (side note: hurray for no new domestic drilling, etc.).

Anyway, I've gotta call it a night, if anyone wants to read more gory details from the last time this stupidity was tried, here you go:

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL33305_20060309.pdf

Oh, and before you liberal dumbfucks trash this, keep in mind the Congressional Research Office is non-partisan, none of the above came from Fox News or WorldNetDaily (just a little reading, something I know can be hard for you Obamapologists).


Edit: sorry some of the formatting in the quotes sucks, I was copying out of a PDF and it comes across a little funky to the board.

Edit 2: sobered up this morning and realized my mistake.

[Cry Havoc]

(AHF note: Obama is proposing a tax credit of $1000 per family just for fall 2008 paid for by a windfall profits tax. At $1000 per U.S. family, and an estimated 115 million families in the U.S., they would have to take in 115,000,000,000 in tax revenue to pay for Obama's vote buying, err, fall 2008 energy credit handout.

Yes, that's 115 trillion dollars. LMAO!

You completely, totally, fail at maths.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/SaneMadness/Failboat.jpg

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

You completely, totally, fail at maths.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/SaneMadness/Failboat.jpg

Where am I wrong?

115 million families. Obama says each would get $1000.

115,000,000 * 1000 = 115,000,000,000.

Unless I'm missing some point or hidden condition of his promise (his promises are hard to keep up with these days - they seem to change based on the audience...).

And really, the math is secondary to everything else in that report - namely that the net effect when it was tried before was that 1) the projected revenue for the federal government was never realized, nowhere close and 2) we actually were MORE dependent on foreign oil during this time frame than prior to it.

Props for the cute photo though, I guess that's the liberal way of conceding defeat to the facts on this one...

[Cry Havoc]

Where am I wrong?

115 million families. Obama says each would get $1000.

115,000,000 * 1000 = 115,000,000,000.

Unless I'm missing some point or hidden condition of his promise (his promises are hard to keep up with these days - they seem to change based on the audience...).

And really, the math is secondary to everything else in that report - namely that the net effect when it was tried before was that 1) the projected revenue for the federal government was never realized, nowhere close and 2) we actually were MORE dependent on foreign oil during this time frame than prior to it.

Props for the cute photo though, I guess that's the liberal way of conceding defeat to the facts on this one...

:lmao

You fail without even realizing it. Beautiful.

[2centsworth]

Aggie don't sweat it, Cry Havoc fails at English and you added more than 3 zeros.
The windfall tax idea is just another example of Obama being absolutely clueless.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lmao

You fail without even realizing it. Beautiful.

This sounds like an Obama response to any discussion of the facts. Beautiful.

[Cry Havoc]

This sounds like an Obama response to any discussion of the facts. Beautiful.

As I stated in another thread, you lost my respect as a poster, at least about politics.

And you have zero room to talk about "appropriate response" when you talk about the wife of a presidential candidate in such a completely false, derogatory manner. I'm not even going to delve into how ridiculous of a statement that is, I just expected better from you. It does show how low you will sink in order to feel better about McCain, though.


Aggie don't sweat it, Cry Havoc fails at English and you added more than 3 zeros.
The windfall tax idea is just another example of Obama being absolutely clueless.

Actually, no. I'm sure you're making a jape at "maths", which was intentional. You'd know that if you were as much of an internet geek as I am. :(

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

As I stated in another thread, you lost my respect as a poster, at least about politics.

And you have zero room to talk about "appropriate response" when you talk about the wife of a presidential candidate in such a completely false, derogatory manner. I'm not even going to delve into how ridiculous of a statement that is, I just expected better from you. It does show how low you will sink in order to feel better about McCain, though.


I don't feel better about McCain. He's a poor candidate, but Obama's worse. Sadly, the last 4 elections and this one have come down to picking the lesser of two evils instead of electing a real leader for this country.

And spare me the holier than thou crap on Obama's wife. I don't see you stepping up to defend McCain and Co. from some of the BS attacks by your fellow leftists.

The day you step in to criticize them for their takes, you can lecture anyone on this forum for attacks about Obama or his wife. Until then you're just another liberal hypocrite.

Finally, yeah, I'll call out Michelle Obama. When you say the first time you've ever been proud of your country is when your husband is the front runner for president, you're going to get called out.

America's a great country, and frankly if she hated it all this time she should have found somewhere better to live.

But back to the topic at hand, which is the horrible idea of Obama's to enact a windfall profits tax. That needs to be the topic of discussion, not some lame attempt by you to take this thread another direction in order to gloss over some pretty damning evidence that Obama's windfall profit tax is a horrible idea.

[ElNono]

Where am I wrong?

115 million families. Obama says each would get $1000.

115,000,000 * 1000 = 115,000,000,000.



That's billions, not trillions. That's less than what we currently spend for 10 months in Iraq (12 billions a month).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That's billions, not trillions. That's less than what we currently spend for 10 months in Iraq (12 billions a month).

So Obama wants to spend more in four months in an attempt to buy the election than we spend in Iraq in a year. Got it.

[ElNono]

So Obama wants to spend more in four months in an attempt to buy the election than we spend in Iraq in a year. Got it.

I'll take the money. You can keep your war.

[Cry Havoc]

So Obama wants to spend more in four months in an attempt to buy the election than we spend in Iraq in a year. Got it.

Yep. Our economy is going down the intertubes, and you're investing your faith in a man who thinks our greatest threat is Islamic Terrorists and Paris Hilton. If this country goes into depression, it's going to be pretty damn difficult to do anything to stop the terrorists.

But yeah, let's fight a ridiculous war across the globe that nearly every other country in the world realizes is a corporate based war for greed (Haliburton, anyone?), and worry about a tiny sect of individuals who like to go Rambo, rather than worry about the economic well-being of our own people. Yep. Sounds good.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yep. Our economy is going down the intertubes, and you're investing your faith in a man who thinks our greatest threat is Islamic Terrorists and Paris Hilton. If this country goes into depression, it's going to be pretty damn difficult to do anything to stop the terrorists.

But yeah, let's fight a ridiculous war across the globe that nearly every other country in the world realizes is a corporate based war for greed, and worry about a tiny sect of individuals who like to go Rambo, rather than worry about the economic well-being of our own people. Yep. Sounds good.

So do you really think Obama giving everyone $1000 in a pathetic attempt at buying the election is going to solve our energy problems? Talk about ignorance.

Oh, and the last time the U.S. turned its back on the world and just worried about itself we went into a recession. So good call there :tu

[Cry Havoc]

Oh, and the last time the U.S. turned its back on the world and just worried about itself we went into a recession. So good call there :tu

Yep. Throwing money away on a war to assist our oil companies is a good plan for economic growth. :toast

[Anti.Hero]

Obama and the hard-left dems are about to rape the economy and try their best to kill many businesses.

Forcing companies to pay people $1k each? Raising capital gains tax, which will decrease tax revenue, rape the market, and really serve no purpose at all other than to trick the ignorant lazy into thinking elite whitey is getting hurt? Forcing the radio businesses to play shit no one wants to hear, nor sponsors want to sponsor? WTF???? This is like CooCoo land.

It's so fucking stupid is amazes me. All aboard the idiot elite dumbfuck corrupt hurtful politician train.

[clambake]

So do you really think Obama giving everyone $1000 in a pathetic attempt at buying the election is going to solve our energy problems?
paying iraqi factions is the only thing delaying the impending slaughter.

Talk about ignorance.
you seem to have that part down.

[Cry Havoc]

Obama and the hard-left dems are about to rape the economy and try their best to kill many businesses.

Forcing companies to pay people $1k each? Raising capital gains tax, which will decrease tax revenue, rape the market, and really serve no purpose at all other than to trick the ignorant lazy into thinking elite whitey is getting hurt? Forcing the radio businesses to play shit no one wants to hear, nor sponsors want to sponsor? WTF???? This is like CooCoo land.




As opposed to the McCain, "let's help big business so they can rape the American public more" economic growth plan.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yep. Throwing money away on a war to assist our oil companies is a good plan for economic growth. :toast

You really are a typical liberal. Bush's failure as a president shouldn't be an excuse for Obama to make an equally stupid policy move that fucks this country up even more. I thought he was supposed to bring change to our country.

Change shouldn't mean fucking everyone over in a different way.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

paying iraqi factions is the only thing delaying the impending slaughter.

you seem to have that part down.

There are 11 billion threads in this forum about Iraq. Go post in one of them. This thread is about Obama's dumbass windfall profits tax idea. Quit trying to be a typical pussy liberal changing the topic.

It's funny, all those facts up there in thread one and since then the only liberal responses have been:

* attack the poster
* but Bush went to Iraq (nothing to do with the topic)
* we're paying off Iraqis (nothing to do with topic)
* McCain wants to help big business (nothing to do with the topic)

Good job libs, I wouldn't expect anything else from you :tu

Let's settle this:

1. Given the first post, and all the facts from the Congressional Research Office, do you any of you liberals on this board still think Obama's tax the oil companies and give it to the masses idea is a good one?

2. Given the results of the first time this was tried, do any of you think the windfall profits tax would actually realize the projected revenue Obama claims?

3. Given the results the first time this was tried, would Obama's plan of windfall profits taxes do anything to decrease our dependence on foreign oil? (this is a trick question to see if any of you actually read, or are just running on autopilot attack anyone questioning the 'great' Obama).

[2centsworth]

Actually, no. I'm sure you're making a jape at "maths", which was intentional. You'd know that if you were as much of an internet geek as I am. :(

I said you can't read not write.

[clambake]

aggie, the windfall money to iraq is coming from us. why do you have your lips wrapped around "crude"?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

aggie, the windfall money to iraq is coming from us. why do you have your lips wrapped around "crude"?

Because crude is better than the liberal energy plan of tax big oil and wait for some mythical alternative energy source to fill up with tomorrow.

As I've said many times on this forum of late, opening up the continental shelf shouldn't be our sole energy plan, it should be part of the interim as part of a comprehensive one.

And as I noted in the first post, all the windfalls profit tax did the first time was increase our reliance on foreign oil, increase the price of gasoline, and the projected revenues were not realized.

It's a shitty and stupid plan.

[clambake]

It's a shitty and stupid plan.

you said it right there. its not a plan, its an idea. why did you fail to put so much thought towards an idea, and so little regard to the reality of what landed this country into recession?

why couldn't the oil execs tell congress how much money they personally made this year?

why can't you see the oil cos want to drill and sell, with no intention of easing the pain america feels at the pump?

[boutons_]

"increase the price of gasoline,"

always the best way to suppress demand, which is great to punish the oilcos and stimulate alternatives to oil.

UK is paying about $9.50/gal now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

you said it right there. its not a plan, its an idea. why did you fail to put so much thought towards an idea, and so little regard to the reality of what landed this country into recession?

why couldn't the oil execs tell congress how much money they personally made this year?

why can't you see the oil cos want to drill and sell, with no intention of easing the pain america feels at the pump?

Why do you have a problem with American companies making money? Do you enjoy the fact we're propping up regimes in Middle East with our gas money?

We all know the oil companies are making a lot of money. So what good does it do bitching about it or coming up with a windfall profits tax that was a failure before?

Fucking A. This is what I hate about Democrats. Bitch bitch about what got us here. That's in the past. Let's deal with the present and our future.

Until a viable alternative fuel source can be come up with that doesn't fuck us over in a different way (i.e., ethanol) that can be delivered on the economies of scale necessary for 300 million people in this country, gas and the prices we pay for it are going to be a part of our lives.

Until we can retool our entire national infrastructure, which is going to take decades and trillions of dollars, driving in our automobiles is still going to be mode of public transportation #1.

And there's enough oil in our continental shelf and Alaska to provide gasoline for America for 14 years. FOURTEEEN YEARS. Drill that shit, pump it, get it to the bumps, and start the clock ticking to bring viable alternatives to the table.

This Obama pipe dream of taxing the companies is going to only increase our costs at the pump, and whoopdedoo he's throwing money at the problem. That's nice, but it doesn't help you or me fill up tomorrow and it won't for many years, and we're talking best case.

Just the discussion of opening up our continental basin to drilling has brought down crude over $20 in the last couple of weeks. The irony of this all is that with Pelosi's insistence on not allowing a floor vote on drilling, the Republicans have now become the party that wants to bring more oil to the market and give us all relief at the pumps. Props to Pelosi for that. Seriously.

And again, windfall profits taxes were bore out to be a failure back in the 80s, and would be again. But hey, Obama already knows that. He just wants to try and buy the election with promising everyone $1000 for their trouble. Nothing better than some junior in HS running for student body president promising half days for the seniors and free drinks from the coke machine.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"increase the price of gasoline,"

always the best way to suppress demand, which is great to punish the oilcos and stimulate alternatives to oil.

UK is paying about $9.50/gal now.

You're a dumbass. The only people who will get punished by higher prices are those of us buying gas at the pump (in your case, your mommy and daddy).

Are you excited about the idea of $9.50 gasoline, boutons? Tell me you're not that fucking stupid.

[Yonivore]

Tell me you're not that fucking stupid.
Oh yeah, he's that fucking stupid.