S*** hits the fan in Georgia: war with Russia?

[RandomGuy]

Georgia moves federal troops into a Moscow-supported seperatist region of Georgia. Two Russian warplanes have been shot down by Georgian forces (confirmed by Georgian president in interview I saw this morning)

Georgia is a Western-friendly, NATO aspirant. Moscow doesn't like this one bit.

I expect Putin to order a full out invasion of Georgia within a week.

What NATO/Western Europe/US does next could drag us into a war with a belligerant, oil/natural gas exporting Russia.--RG

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia

----------------------------------------------------------------
TSKHINVALI, Georgia - A Cabinet minister says Georgian troops control the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.


Georgian troops launched a major military offensive earlier Friday to regain control of South Ossetia, prompting a furious response from Russia.

Russia has sent tanks into the region and the convoy is expected to reach the provincial capital by evening.

The fighting is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de-facto independence in a war that ended in 1992 — raising fears that war could once again erupt.

A Russian military officer says that 10 Russian peacekeepers have been killed and another 30 wounded in South Ossetia.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

TSKHINVALI, Georgia (AP) — Georgian troops launched a major military offensive Friday to regain control over the breakaway province of South Ossetia, prompting a furious response from Russia — which vowed retaliation and sent a column of tanks into the region.

The fighting was the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de-facto independence in a war that ended in 1992 — raising fears that war could once again erupt.

Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said a convoy of Russian tanks had crossed into South Ossetia from the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia and was moving toward the regional capital of Tskhinvali.

Russia's Channel 1 television earlier showed Russian tanks that it said had entered South Ossetia. The report said the convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital within a few hours.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has warned that the Georgian attack will draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Georgian forces also shot down two Russian combat planes, according to Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman, Shota Utiashvili. He said the planes were downed while they were raiding Georgian territory, but wouldn't give their type or any further details.

Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgian report about one Russian plane downed. It had no immediate comment on the latest claim.

An Associated Press reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia.

"I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village," said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.

Separatist officials in South Ossetia said 15 civilians had been killed in fighting overnight. Georgian officials said seven civilians were wounded in bombing raids by Russia.

Putin, in Beijing to attend the Olympic opening ceremony, also said an unspecified number of the peacekeepers have been wounded.

Georgia declared a three-hour cease-fire to allow civilians to leave Tskhinvali. Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman said troops were observing the cease-fire, which began at 3 p.m. local time (7 a.m. EDT).

A spokesman for President Bush said Russia and Georgia should cease hostilities and hold talks to end the conflict. NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said he is seriously concerned about the fighting and that the alliance is closely following the situation.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. The country has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.

Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.

South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire. The city's main hospital was among the buildings hit by Georgian shelling, the Russian news agency Interfax said.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said it is seeking to open a humanitarian corridor to guarantee safe access to Tskhinvali. Maia Kardova, ICRC spokeswoman in Tbilisi, said military vehicles are being given priority on the main road leading to the South Ossetia capital and this is making it difficult for rescue vehicles to get through.

Georgia's President said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

"A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," Saakashvili said in a televised statement.

He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.

Seven civilians were wounded when three Russian Su-24 jet bombers flew into Georgia and bombed the town of Gori and the villages of Kareli and Variani, Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze said at a briefing.

She said that four Russian jets later bombed Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, but that raid didn't cause any casualties.

Saakashvili urged Russia to immediately stop bombing Georgian territory. "Georgia will not yield its territory or renounce its freedom," he said.

A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

Russia's Defense Ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a "dirty adventure." "Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience," the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site.

"We will protect our peacekeepers and Russian citizens," it said without elaboration.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev later chaired a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, vowing that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.

"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."

[clambake]

"I looked into his eyes and saw his soul" :lmao

[RandomGuy]

"I looked into his eyes and saw his soul" :lmao

Aw man, you had to go there...

I am so tired of being embarassed of my president.

We can only hope that he breaks his pattern of incompetance and somehow manages to defuse this situation. I am hopeful, but not confident in that happening.

[Anti.Hero]

Let's just stay out of it and see what happens.

[clambake]

Let's just stay out of it and see what happens.

no. w needs to take "dreamy eyes" away on a nice, discreet weekend getaway. moonlight, wine, maybe a little "toot", and some serious spooning.:lol

[Cry Havoc]

Let's just stay out of it and see what happens.

I thought we were supposed to protect freedom everywhere. That's the rhetoric you've been espousing lately, right?

[clambake]

georgia attacked because russia has weapons of mass destruction.

we have to go all in! besides, peace is for pussies!

[spurster]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/06/20010618.html

"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul"

[byrontx]

We are witnessing the rebirth of the Soviet Union. Bush's policy of aggressively encircling Russia with anti-missile systems really pissed off Putin and Russian nationalists (never mind that the systems can easily be made ineffective so we did not get much out of it either). That coupled with sitting on our hands as democratic elements were suppressed is about to come bite us on our butts.

It is a terrible shame that our country has such ineffective (read dumb) leadership at such a critical junction in our history.

[boutons_]

Imperialistic Russia, this time floating on oil and gas dollars, exposing itself again as it always has been.

Georgia will be crushed, doesn't have a chance.

[Anti.Hero]

It's only a matter of time before they move west and attack Alabama!!!11

[Extra Stout]

We are witnessing the rebirth of the Soviet Union. Bush's policy of aggressively encircling Russia with anti-missile systems really pissed off Putin and Russian nationalists (never mind that the systems can easily be made ineffective so we did not get much out of it either). That coupled with sitting on our hands as democratic elements were suppressed is about to come bite us on our butts.

It is a terrible shame that our country has such ineffective (read dumb) leadership at such a critical junction in our history.
Is not Soviet Union being reborn. Is Holy Orthodox Tsarist Mother Russia. Only matter of time before Putin have Patriarch crown him One True Christian Emperor. Why you not bend knee to him? Is outrage!

[Extra Stout]

Price of oil go up because Russia allow church to rebuild. Bishop go to oil field and give oil field blessing. Price go up. Make Mother Russia rich again. Now Georgians rebel against authority like iconoclast Protestants. This is fruit of Western thinking. Is rubbish. Mother Russia make Georgians submit like before.

[Brutalis]

Why does the USA always get involved in shit?

[Extra Stout]

Why does the USA always get involved in shit?
Why is everybody assuming the U.S. is involved? Because RG made wild speculation? The U.S. will offer up nothing more than a stern rebuke to Russia.

[Brutalis]

Why is everybody assuming the U.S. is involved? Because RG made wild speculation? The U.S. will offer up nothing more than a stern rebuke to Russia.

Rice called Russian hierarchy and urged them to stop. Maybe we're not sending planes over yet but to me that's getting involved. Why can't they shut up and let NATO do it's thing?

[Extra Stout]

Rice called Russian hierarchy and urged them to stop. Maybe we're not sending planes over yet but to me that's getting involved. Why can't they shut up and let NATO do it's thing?
OMG an American diplomat made a phone call! Oh the meddling! Horror!!!

[Extra Stout]

P.S. Your contention that the U.S. should butt out and let NATO do its thing should win post of the week.

[Ya Vez]

it will be a NATO issue.. kind of like Bosnia, IF anything really happens.. besides Obama has the Europeans in his pocket they will wait for orders from the messiah..

[Brutalis]

...anyways.... my questions remains. Why do we get involved?

[Extra Stout]

I wonder how many people here, if asked to find Georgia on a map, would point somewhere in the Balkans? :lmao

[Extra Stout]

...anyways.... my questions remains. Why do we get involved?
Stop being an ignorant Arkie and look at a map of what part of the world that is. Answer your own question.

[xrayzebra]

"I looked into his eyes and saw his soul" :lmao


No problem, I want to see what Congress looks into and see's. They live in a vacuum I know, most cant even remember intel briefings on Iraq. But I am sure they will, in their wisdom, lead us into the perfect solution. And help solve this "little" problem between friends (?).
:lmao

My real answer: We wont do anything. Russian has a free hand to do whatever they want.

[Brutalis]

Stop being an ignorant Arkie and look at a map of what part of the world that is. Answer your own question.

Aside from the personal attacks, that explains why the US gets involved with everyone over every conflict?

[1369]

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/union-generals/sherman/pictures/general-william-tecumseh-sherman.jpg

Approves

[clambake]

No problem, I want to see what Congress looks into and see's. They live in a vacuum I know, most cant even remember intel briefings on Iraq. But I am sure they will, in their wisdom, lead us into the perfect solution. And help solve this "little" problem between friends (?).
:lmao
senior moment post


My real answer: We wont do anything. Russian has a free hand to do whatever they want.
georgia helped your boy in afghanistan, so you expect your boy to turn his back on them. i agree!

[Extra Stout]

Aside from the personal attacks, that explains why the US gets involved with everyone over every conflict?
1) Diplomacy is one of the essential components of statecraft, and has been since antiquity. If this were AD 100 and Huns were moving into the Caucusus, officials in Rome would make it their business to know about it. If this were 1000 B.C. and something were stirring up around the Black Sea, Egypt would want to know about it.

2) Russia is a major world power, and anything they do has an impact upon U.S. interests.

3) A war in the Caucusus impacts Turkey, America's key NATO ally in the Near/Middle East.

4) A war in the Caucusus impacts Iran, a nation in which the U.S has some interest these days.

5) A war involving Russia impacts global energy security, an issue which affects your uninformed person every time you want to drive somewhere or use your air conditioning.

6) The United States cannot be disinterested in a conflict which could impact NATO, because the United States is the dominant partner in NATO.

7) The battle raging in Georgia is less than 400 miles away from U.S. troops in Mosul, Iraq.

Your failure to grasp points #1 and #7 is the most grating. I am guessing you have some problem with the U.S. being a global superpower with interests in every nook and cranny of the globe. The mere act of diplomacy in addressing the Russian-Georgian conflict has nothing to do with that. It would be the job of the diplomat from East Asscrackia to contact the Russians and urge a ceasefire. So your failure to apprehend point #1 betrays a basic ignorance of statecraft.

Now, your failure to grasp point #7 betrays a failure on your point to exercise your reponsibility to be an informed American citizen.

[clambake]

1) Diplomacy is one of the essential components of statecraft, and has been since antiquity. If this were AD 100 and Huns were moving into the Caucusus, officials in Rome would make it their business to know about it. If this were 1000 B.C. and something were stirring up around the Black Sea, Egypt would want to know about it.

2) Russia is a major world power, and anything they do has an impact upon U.S. interests.

3) A war in the Caucusus impacts Turkey, America's key NATO ally in the Near/Middle East.

4) A war in the Caucusus impacts Iran, a nation in which the U.S has some interest these days.

5) A war involving Russia impacts global energy security, an issue which affects your uninformed person every time you want to drive somewhere or use your air conditioning.

6) The United States cannot be disinterested in a conflict which could impact NATO, because the United States is the dominant partner in NATO.

7) The battle raging in Georgia is less than 400 miles away from U.S. troops in Mosul, Iraq.

Your failure to grasp points #1 and #7 is the most grating. I am guessing you have some problem with the U.S. being a global superpower with interests in every nook and cranny of the globe. The mere act of diplomacy in addressing the Russian-Georgian conflict has nothing to do with that. It would be the job of the diplomat from East Asscrackia to contact the Russians and urge a ceasefire. So your failure to apprehend point #1 betrays a basic ignorance of statecraft.

Now, your failure to grasp point #7 betrays a failure on your point to exercise your reponsibility to be an informed American citizen.

so......you play with him........like toy.

[j-6]

Georgia is slated to be on the NATO roll call in December, or at least the one year formal application is supposed to start for them. This could have been a lot worse - Western Europe and the US engaged in a conflict with Russia over some renegade Georgian province.

(Of course, I don't see Russia attacking a NATO member, which might explain the timing of this.)

I never thought I'd say this, but thank God Dubya's in the saddle right now. I have full confidence that he'll side with the Russians and this will drop to a blurb on the paper's world page within a week.

[Extra Stout]

so......you play with him........like toy.
Yes... like toy. Simple American. American listen to Shostakovich, think music pretty. Not hear satire. American ear like child. We crush you!

[j-6]

South Ossetia is the size of Victoria and most of its citizens hold Russian passports, with aspirations of becoming their own nation. Georgia says no, we fought for this land twenty years ago. North Ossetia-Alania is a semi-autonomous nation in Russia, with ten times the population of South Ossetia. The Ossetians, on both sides, have been watching the military buildup on the Russian / North Ossetian border for over a month. As soon as the attack started, the South Ossetians fled north, toward the Russian armed forces and their brethren's republic.

Even my dumb ass can spin this into a liberation and unification exercise. Everyone wins. The Ossetians can be united in their own country under the Russian Federation's umbrella, which looks like what they wanted in the first place. Georgia rids itself of a troublesome province and can concentrate on the rest of its warlords in Abkhazia, further stabilization, and improve it's lot with NATO.

[RandomGuy]

Why is everybody assuming the U.S. is involved? Because RG made wild speculation? The U.S. will offer up nothing more than a stern rebuke to Russia.

Just to be clear, I suggested no US involvement or intention to move in militarily.

I have absolutely no firm idea as to what the current administration may do, but agree with the general consensus that the most likely course of action is to refrain from interfering.

Western Europe is another matter, but I don't see them intervening militarily either.

I think this may finally spark them to invest some Euros in upgrading their militaries, though.

[RandomGuy]

Yakobashvili said that one Russian plane had dropped a bomb on the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, but no one was hurt.

More than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers were at the base last month to teach combat skills to Georgian troops. Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain.



I wonder if any are still there?

[Anti.Hero]

Wow. That could have caused some horrible outcomes.

[MannyIsGod]

We do still have a lot of personal in country. They talked about it on the news earlier.

[Brutalis]

1) Diplomacy is one of the essential components of statecraft, and has been since antiquity. If this were AD 100 and Huns were moving into the Caucusus, officials in Rome would make it their business to know about it. If this were 1000 B.C. and something were stirring up around the Black Sea, Egypt would want to know about it.

2) Russia is a major world power, and anything they do has an impact upon U.S. interests.

3) A war in the Caucusus impacts Turkey, America's key NATO ally in the Near/Middle East.

4) A war in the Caucusus impacts Iran, a nation in which the U.S has some interest these days.

5) A war involving Russia impacts global energy security, an issue which affects your uninformed person every time you want to drive somewhere or use your air conditioning.

6) The United States cannot be disinterested in a conflict which could impact NATO, because the United States is the dominant partner in NATO.

7) The battle raging in Georgia is less than 400 miles away from U.S. troops in Mosul, Iraq.

Your failure to grasp points #1 and #7 is the most grating. I am guessing you have some problem with the U.S. being a global superpower with interests in every nook and cranny of the globe. The mere act of diplomacy in addressing the Russian-Georgian conflict has nothing to do with that. It would be the job of the diplomat from East Asscrackia to contact the Russians and urge a ceasefire. So your failure to apprehend point #1 betrays a basic ignorance of statecraft.

Now, your failure to grasp point #7 betrays a failure on your point to exercise your reponsibility to be an informed American citizen.

Why couldn't you have said this to begin with? I already knew you enjoying being disliked and an asshole but got damn you sure take it to extremes.

No I do not have some problem with it, and I am not a political person as such seldom post here therefor I bare the question to begin with, not that you're smart enough to humor that.

I understand your point about being a superpower. However using Rome and Egypt and such for examples is what is humor, considering they fell flat on their face. So now if I was you I would assume my ever existing asshole like fever and assume for you also that we are going to fall and cease to hold any power at all, but frankly I'm not so arrogant/ignorant with the same chip on my shoulder.

And lastly. I fucking hate people that post like you. You are an educated person and close to double my age, I get it. I've seen that since I started posting here. But I would bet anything you wouldn't dare act like you do on this forum to me, or someone to their face in the real world. I don't play the internet tough guy bullshit but for several months now I notice what flat pussy you are and how fake your role is on this forum. Give me a typical reply not unlike yourself as I know you will, and make some fruitless judgment towards me as it's obvious your life is completely routine, and connect your words leaving you feel confident inside all you wish. That's nothing new with you. But understand people like you that act one way on here, and different outside those walls of your comfortable existence are complete worn out tools with no backbone. Because if you did act as such, you'd have no friends and no social life at all. Harvey Dent much?

[cool hand]

lets get'em

http://www.b17sam.com/files/bombstream.jpg

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

We are witnessing the rebirth of the Soviet Union. Bush's policy of aggressively encircling Russia with anti-missile systems really pissed off Putin and Russian nationalists (never mind that the systems can easily be made ineffective so we did not get much out of it either). That coupled with sitting on our hands as democratic elements were suppressed is about to come bite us on our butts.

It is a terrible shame that our country has such ineffective (read dumb) leadership at such a critical junction in our history.


Wow, I expected croutons to go to the 'it's Bush's fault' card. Welcome byron :lol

This doesn't have shit to do with the U.S., it's what happens when you have a KGB idealist in Putin as president and now as prime minister with a puppet protege of his in Medvedev as president. Putin wants to go back to the Cold War days of Mother Russia.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Georgia is slated to be on the NATO roll call in December, or at least the one year formal application is supposed to start for them. This could have been a lot worse - Western Europe and the US engaged in a conflict with Russia over some renegade Georgian province.

(Of course, I don't see Russia attacking a NATO member, which might explain the timing of this.)

I never thought I'd say this, but thank God Dubya's in the saddle right now. I have full confidence that he'll side with the Russians and this will drop to a blurb on the paper's world page within a week.

You highlighted exactly why Russia is going in now. This has been in their plans all along and if they waited until December they'd be up against NATO.

Georgia is already asking for a ceasefire and Russia's saying fuck you. Nothing more than a Russian land grab.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I wonder if any are still there?

I heard we've got about 500 troops still there at that base. Damn, if it they would have gotten some of our troops when they dropped that bomb...

[clambake]

I heard we've got about 500 troops still there at that base. Damn, if it they would have gotten some of our troops when they dropped that bomb...

what?......finish.

[cool hand]

Russia would be no match for an all-out American Assault.

[Extra Stout]

Why couldn't you have said this to begin with? I already knew you enjoying being disliked and an asshole but got damn you sure take it to extremes.
You caught me on a grouchy day. They're less frequent than they used to be.


I understand your point about being a superpower. However using Rome and Egypt and such for examples is what is humor, considering they fell flat on their face. So now if I was you I would assume my ever existing asshole like fever and assume for you also that we are going to fall and cease to hold any power at all, but frankly I'm not so arrogant/ignorant with the same chip on my shoulder.
Every single country eventually falls. Even America. Actually, our fall is sooner than you think.


And lastly. I fucking hate people that post like you. You are an educated person and close to double my age, I get it.
I'm not that much older than you.


I've seen that since I started posting here. But I would bet anything you wouldn't dare act like you do on this forum to me, or someone to their face in the real world.
You're capable of a lot more than you think you are. That's the point of busting out the stereotype. It's ironic. You don't really fit it. If you put a tenth of the effort into understanding current events that you do into Arkansas football, you'd be the expert.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Georgia fell into Russia's trap.
I give props to Georgia for picking this time to launch an attack, but they are complete utter incompetent fools beyond fools if they did not make it number 1 priority to block the tunnel (roki?). They basically bombed the shit out of another ethnic minority group, failed to seal off the main route for Russian reinforcements, which they should have seen coming, now are gonna get bombed to shit.

Russia has played this entire scenario flawlessly, and you have to give them mad credit. Not only did they give south ossetians passports and attempt to dissolve pretty much every barrier possible (besides those on a map and geographic ones), but they pretty much kept daring and daring and daring Georgia to act. They supported S. Ossetia (and Abkhazia) from their inception, and steadily increased support throughout the years, more noticeably during this past year and after the Kosovo declaration of Independence back in Feb.

Georgia should have made closing off the tunnel a top priority, occupied the region, and gone all out. They had to take more steps than this to successfully portray Russia as the bad guy here.
Instead, what we have seen is a half assed attack, sheer pussification, and Russia instantly moving all the tanks and troops they already had at the ready right into the South Ossetian region with ease. Russia was ready, they had been ready, for years.

It boggles my mind how this can be all there is to the story but so far that's what it seems like. The Georgian President trying to evoke "american values" in regards to this crises really tells me that this guy bit off wayyy more than he could chew and he irrationally has been keeping Western Support as his wild card.....a completely stupid stupid grasp of the situation. This is such a stupid method of action that I can't help but believe there has to be more to come....But maybe not.

Everything involving precedent is on Russia's side. They even had the foresight to make those S. Ossetians citizens, so that while its not like those are real Russians, they get to win the media war and portray Georgia as the aggressor and in the wrong.

This is not a Russian "Land Grab" either btw. What Russia's goal is, what it always has been, is energy monopoly. Theyre going to take this battle into Georgia as deep as possible and try to shut down the Baku-Tsibili-Ceyan pipeline. Even though the pipeline currently accounts for very little of the overall energy to Europe, it has the potential for much, much more.

I expect to see the Western rhetoric step up alot more if Russia continues to trek into the heart of Georgia, but every possible precedent, and thanks to this shitty first attack, every moral consideration is in favor of Russia.

We're witnessing the most well played geopolitical scenario of 21st century Russia.

[MannyIsGod]

Damn, thats vintage CBF posting.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Very typical of this forum (and the world) that a "john edwards is human and fucks fuckable fuckworthy fuckwilling women" thread is outpacing a thread such as this which pertains to truly worldshaping events.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Seriously though, the reports of 1,000 dead would mean that Georgia has eliminated 1/50th - 1/70th of the entire population of South Ossetia. Do you think the US media wouldn't have burst their chode vessels and spewed blood for at least 16 minutes if this had happened in Kosovo?

The key here is that the common marriott Russian more than likely totally totally believes that Russia is in the right, neoconesque christian bullheaded Bush style.

Combined with the precedent factor, Russia pretty much has a free turn to do whatever the fuck it wants. The only catch for Russia is that if they handle it wrong, or if a Georgian tears up the media in the right way, it might incite ethnically distinct regions to start up their own conflicts. What I will never understand is how the Georgian President would follow throw with physical force unless he had some sort of deal with another anti-Russian element. If they went into this conflict by themselves, only counting on the West, then they pretty much deserve anything that Russia is willing to dish out.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm


Q&A: Violence in South Ossetia

Escalating tensions between Georgia and its breakaway province of South Ossetia have erupted into serious fighting.

The separatist administration in South Ossetia has been trying to gain formal independence since breaking away in a civil war in the 1990s.

Russia has troops in the region, on a peacekeeping mandate. But Moscow also supports the separatists.

What is the status of South Ossetia?

South Ossetia has run its own affairs since fighting for independence from Georgia in 1991-92, in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It has declared independence, though this has not been recognised by any other country.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has vowed to bring South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia, back under full Georgian control.

Why do Ossetians want to break away?

The Ossetians are a distinct ethnic group originally from the Russian plains just south of the Don river. In the 13th Century, they were pushed southwards by Mongol invasions into the Caucasus mountains, settling along the border with Georgia.

South Ossetians want to join up with their ethnic brethren in North Ossetia, which is an autonomous republic within the Russian Federation.

Ethnic Georgians are a minority in South Ossetia, accounting for less than one-third of the population.

But Georgia rejects even the name, South Ossetia, preferring to call it by the ancient name of Samachablo, or Tskhinvali, after its main city.

What triggered the latest crisis?

Tension has risen since the election of President Saakashvili in 2004. He offered South Ossetia dialogue and autonomy within a single Georgian state - but in 2006 South Ossetians voted in an unofficial referendum to press their demands for complete independence.

In April 2008 Nato said Georgia would be allowed to join the alliance at some point - angering Russia, which opposes the eastward expansion of Nato. Weeks later, Russia stepped up ties with the separatists in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

In July Russia admitted its fighter jets entered Georgian airspace over South Ossetia to "cool hot heads in Tbilisi". Occasional clashes escalated, until six people were reportedly killed by Georgian shelling. Attempts to reach a ceasefire quickly collapsed.

Could Russia become directly involved in war?

Russia insists it has been acting as a peacekeeper in South Ossetia, rejecting Georgian accusations that it has been supplying arms to the separatists.

However, it has vowed to defend its citizens in South Ossetia - of which there are many. More than half of South Ossetia's 70,000 citizens are said to have taken up Moscow's offer of a Russian passport.

Russia may view limited military intervention as less risky than recognising South Ossetia's independence, which could lead to all-out war with Georgia.

What about Georgia's links to Nato?

President Saakashvili has made membership of Nato one of his main goals. Georgia has a close relationship with the United States and has been cultivating ties with Western Europe.

There are those who believe that Mr Saakashvili may be hoping to draw Nato into a conflict with Moscow, making their alliance a formal one.

But analysts say it is difficult to imagine Nato allowing itself to be drawn into a direct conflict with its Cold War rival after managing to avoid that for so long.

[Nbadan]

After the illegal invasion of Iraq I'm not sure the Bush administration has any legs to stand on to tell Russia to do anything...

U.S. tells Russia to pull forces out of Georgia
By Susan Cornwell and Sue Pleming


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States told Russia on Friday to withdraw its forces from U.S. ally Georgia and stop its air attacks on the tiny Caucasus state following fighting in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement.

Rice issued her statement as Georgia, a former Soviet state that now wants to join NATO, said it would declare martial law as it battled to get control of the rebel enclave, which was backed by Russian forces.

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0850115420080808)

[Nbadan]

Meanwhile..


Georgia is a key link in a U.S.-backed ``southern energy corridor'' that links the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia, the world's biggest energy producer. Two pipelines pass through the country linking Azerbaijan and Turkey.

The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which has been closed since Aug. 5 due to an explosion in Turkey, runs about 100 kilometers south of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali.

Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWBTfkW.mzGk&refer=home)

Russia could be looking at this as a opportune time to attack Georgia for many reasons

* U.S. forces, which also make up most of NATO might tied up in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

* The expansion of NATO influence into former Soviet countries

* The control of the flow of oil in the Caspein sea region

[Nbadan]

You can watch Russian Regional News on the crisis in Georgia and South Ossetia Here:

Russian special forces deployed in Tskhinvali (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28698/video)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

After the illegal invasion of Iraq I'm not sure the Bush administration has any legs to stand on to tell Russia to do anything...

U.S. tells Russia to pull forces out of Georgia
By Susan Cornwell and Sue Pleming



Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0850115420080808)

:lmao

"Illegal."

[Cry Havoc]

Yes... like toy. Simple American. American listen to Shostakovich, think music pretty. Not hear satire. American ear like child. We crush you!

:lmao

Dude I love you. :toast

[Ya Vez]

After the illegal invasion of Iraq I'm not sure the Bush administration has any legs to stand on to tell Russia to do anything...

U.S. tells Russia to pull forces out of Georgia
By Susan Cornwell and Sue Pleming



Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0850115420080808)

After the messiah lord Obama gets into office we will no longer fight in any wars, we will just worry about domestic issues and the world can fuck off with their problems..

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

After the messiah lord Obama gets into office we will no longer fight in any wars, we will just worry about domestic issues and the world can fuck off with their problems..

Yeah, that worked out well the last time we tried it. All we ended up with was WWII.

[clambake]

Yeah, that worked out well the last time we tried it. All we ended up with was WWII.

geez, scrape off the rust. we've proven to be quite capable of creating our own world problems.

[boutons_]

"U.S. tells Russia to pull forces out of Georgia
By Susan Cornwell and Sue Pleming"

First, dubya, in full public view, on his knees, asking Saudis to lower the price of oil. As if the Saudis were the cause of the $140 oil, and could do what dubya begged.

Now, demanding Russia stop military action "just because", as if Putin, swimming in $100+ barrel oil/gas $$$, would "appease" dubya on anything, esp on a point of Russian imperialism.

Fucking stupid dubya, fucking embarrassing, fucking ridiculous.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, that worked out well the last time we tried it. All we ended up with was WWII.

:lol @ thinking FDR ignored the war and tried to stay out of it.

:lol @ the thought we got involved because we were isolationist.

:lol @ you not understanding isolationism and non-interventionist policies

Then again you called Obama Marxist which is an even bigger LOL

[ostrikrool]

People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!!

[ostrikrool]

Russia does not need for georgian oils. In load;embark;stevedore no oils and gas.
Russia will not seize load;embark;stevedore. Russia will not seize осетию and абхазию. Georgians kill osetin. saacaschvili there is fascist.

PS I am sory for my english

[ostrikrool]

write me on [email protected]

[Brutalis]

Every single country eventually falls. Even America. Actually, our fall is sooner than you think.

That I know. Implosions are like fireflies, they are fun to watch but they don't last long.



You're capable of a lot more than you think you are. That's the point of busting out the stereotype. It's ironic. You don't really fit it. If you put a tenth of the effort into understanding current events that you do into Arkansas football, you'd be the expert.

You sound like my mom, and I'm not being sarcastic either.

Problem is I just don't see anything to believe in. I used to be into debate in HS, about every subject that floats around today still. Abortion, war, lettuce on your hamburger.. yeah. It's just after seeing some things happen to friends, and 9/11, then to my dad.. I just don't feel like this country is looking out for us at all. I actually was about to join the Navy earlier this year, but pulled out because of my issues with our government. I realized, why would I fight for something I don't believe in anymore? I love my country but at the same time I know when the call a kettle black.

And about the stereotype thing. Listen, we all do it to a different degree. We are all part racist, and part perverts. That is fact. However the rest of us are part other things to go with it. I could list a bucket load of things I have seen and witnessed in a lifetime of only 23 years most 40 year old people couldn't hold a stick to. But I don't whine or complain, it is how it is. But I know it's made me a narrow minded pessimistic person that's egocentric at times. That's my own fault. And as I continue to be sober I realize that and more about myself each day I'd like to change. It comes down to effort, and if in the end it's even worth it and the way things are going in this world I don't know that it is.

Feel free to reply with my first point, not me rambling on.

[Anti.Hero]

Then again you called Obama Marxist which is an even bigger LOL

Can you explain to educate me on my ignorance? Serious.

[Brutalis]

Oh look we have a Russian. Do you sell arms to young growing countries too?

:lmao Kidding.

[ostrikrool]

Oh look we have a Russian. Do you sell arms to young growing countries too?

:lmao Kidding.
you very funny . arrive to us are together dared...:wakeup

[T Park]

Then again you called Obama Marxist which is an even bigger LOL




:lol @ thinking Obama is anything but left.

[Yonivore]

We appear to be witnessing the resurrection of the Brezhnev era. And, Vladimir Putin looks like the second coming of Leonid Brezhnev. But, Barack Obama looks equally like the second coming of Jimmy Carter, whom Brezhnev treated as a lackey. Today the Obama and McCain campaigns both put out statements on the Russian invasion. Politico's Ben Smith (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080809/pl_politico/12409) contrasts them:


While Obama offered a response largely in line with statements issued by democratically elected world leaders, including President Bush, first calling on both sides to negotiate, John McCain took a remarkably — and uniquely — more aggressive stance, siding clearly with Georgia’s pro-Western leaders and placing the blame for the conflict entirely on Russia.
In case that wasn't clear, he adds: "McCain’s initial statement...put him more closely in line with the moral clarity and American exceptionalism projected by President Bush’s first term."

In another weird echo of the Brezhnev years, Obama adviser Mark Brzezinski-- Zbigniew's son--said, "It’s both sides’ fault — both have been somewhat provocative with each other." Sure. Just like the Czechs provoked the Germans in 1938.

The Russians, needless to say, are not neutral as between McCain and Obama. Ben Smith recounts that their Washington public relations firm contacted reporters to remind them that McCain foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann has lobbied for Georgia. Unbelievably, the Obama campaign aligned itself squarely with Vladimir Putin, putting out a statement that echoed the Russian PR firm's:


"John McCain's top foreign policy adviser lobbied for, and has a vested interest in, the Republic of Georgia and McCain has mirrored the position advocated by the government,' said Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan.
In the common sense-free world of Barack Obama, advocating for a fledgling democracy that is trying to align itself with the West and is threatened by the imperial aspirations of Russia constitutes a "conflict of interest."

The McCain camp responded with this statement:


The Obama campaign's attacks on Randy Scheunemann are disgraceful. Mr. Scheunemann proudly represented a small democracy that is one of our closest allies in a very dangerous region. Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin. The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Senator Obama's judgment--it answers them.
The American people once elected Jimmy Carter to defend their interests against Leonid Brezhnev. It will be interesting to see whether they are willing to do it again.

[Cry Havoc]

In the common sense-free world of Barack Obama, advocating for a fledgling democracy that is trying to align itself with the West and is threatened by the imperial aspirations of Russia constitutes a "conflict of interest."

A fledgling country that voluntarily decided to mount an offense to attack an occupied province without warning or discussion.

If true democracy is going to come to the world, it will be done without weapons and such ridiculous avarice for more territory and power.

[Yonivore]

A fledgling country that voluntarily decided to mount an offense to attack an occupied province without warning or discussion.

If true democracy is going to come to the world, it will be done without weapons and such ridiculous avarice for more territory and power.
Last I checked Ossetia was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Ossetia is a province of Georgia. Russia crossed the internationally recognized border between Georgia and Russia.

[ostrikrool]

Last I checked Ossetia was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Ossetia is a province of Georgia. Russia crossed the internationally recognized border between Georgia and Russia.

Russia fell into Georgia rightfully international sanctions UNO.
On rights MC

[ostrikrool]

Georgians to kill defenseless people

[Cry Havoc]

Last I checked Ossetia was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Ossetia is a province of Georgia. Russia crossed the internationally recognized border between Georgia and Russia.

Really? So we should support Georgia in their ability to break away from Russia, but when Ossetia says, "Enough" and wants to break away from Georgia, they're horrible and need to be invaded! Yes. That's the logic we need to follow here.

[velik_m]

Last I checked Ossetia was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Ossetia is a province of Georgia. Russia crossed the internationally recognized border between Georgia and Russia.

Last I checked Kosovo was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Kosovo is a province of Serbia. NATO crossed the internationally recognized border between Serbia and Albania.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/russia.kosovo

[Nbadan]

Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili has called for an immediate ceasefire to the conflict raging in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, adding that Russia has launched, quote a "fullscale military invasion of its country".

Russia says its just trying to protect its people, and described the situation there as a humanitarian catastrophe.

Jonah Hull has the latest on the outskirts of South Ossetia.


VPUZpo2T3uI

[RandomGuy]

Georgia fell into Russia's trap.
I give props to Georgia for picking this time to launch an attack, but they are complete utter incompetent fools beyond fools if they did not make it number 1 priority to block the tunnel (roki?). They basically bombed the shit out of another ethnic minority group, failed to seal off the main route for Russian reinforcements, which they should have seen coming, now are gonna get bombed to shit.

Russia has played this entire scenario flawlessly, and you have to give them mad credit. Not only did they give south ossetians passports and attempt to dissolve pretty much every barrier possible (besides those on a map and geographic ones), but they pretty much kept daring and daring and daring Georgia to act. They supported S. Ossetia (and Abkhazia) from their inception, and steadily increased support throughout the years, more noticeably during this past year and after the Kosovo declaration of Independence back in Feb.

Georgia should have made closing off the tunnel a top priority, occupied the region, and gone all out. They had to take more steps than this to successfully portray Russia as the bad guy here.
Instead, what we have seen is a half assed attack, sheer pussification, and Russia instantly moving all the tanks and troops they already had at the ready right into the South Ossetian region with ease. Russia was ready, they had been ready, for years.

It boggles my mind how this can be all there is to the story but so far that's what it seems like. The Georgian President trying to evoke "american values" in regards to this crises really tells me that this guy bit off wayyy more than he could chew and he irrationally has been keeping Western Support as his wild card.....a completely stupid stupid grasp of the situation. This is such a stupid method of action that I can't help but believe there has to be more to come....But maybe not.

Everything involving precedent is on Russia's side. They even had the foresight to make those S. Ossetians citizens, so that while its not like those are real Russians, they get to win the media war and portray Georgia as the aggressor and in the wrong.

This is not a Russian "Land Grab" either btw. What Russia's goal is, what it always has been, is energy monopoly. Theyre going to take this battle into Georgia as deep as possible and try to shut down the Baku-Tsibili-Ceyan pipeline. Even though the pipeline currently accounts for very little of the overall energy to Europe, it has the potential for much, much more.

I expect to see the Western rhetoric step up alot more if Russia continues to trek into the heart of Georgia, but every possible precedent, and thanks to this shitty first attack, every moral consideration is in favor of Russia.

We're witnessing the most well played geopolitical scenario of 21st century Russia.

I wouldn't quite say that Russia's bit here has been flawless, but Georgia did step on their collective dicks on this one.

[RandomGuy]

Last I checked Kosovo was a province of ... wait for it ... wait for it ... That's Right!!! Kosovo is a province of Serbia. NATO crossed the internationally recognized border between Serbia and Albania.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/15/russia.kosovo

... after indications of mass slaughters of civilians in a directed ethnic cleansing campaign where thousands of unarmed men where lined up infront of mass, shallow graves and shot in the back of the head.

Georgia was indeed outgunning the armed sepratists in Ossentia, but there were no indications of intential butchering.

Analogy fail. Abort, and retry some other lame-ass attempt at moral cover.

This is purely a war of Russian aggression. I expect a Russian occupation of Georgia, and probably some kind of annexation.

Of course, after our shit-stained attempt at doing something similar in Iraq, the US has little moral authority when it comes to condemning such things.

US moral authority=yet another casualty of Iraq. :depressed

[RandomGuy]

People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!!


LOL

Russian "peacemakers". ROFL :lmao

[RandomGuy]

If I were the Georgians, I would be taking notes from what happened in Chechnya, and start waging a very aggressive PR campaign.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=chechnya

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html

or hell, pick any other of a rather wide number of articles:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=human+rights+chechnya&btnG=Search


The Military Amateur Hour known as the Russian Army will spank Georgia with sheer numbers, but will pay a heavy price. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-intro.htm

[leo_d]

lol @ Russia talking about the right of self determination of the south-ossetians and ignore the right of self determination of the chechenians.

lol @ George W. Bush asking for Russia to respect georgian territorial sovereignty after he violated Irak`s sovereignty for over 5 years.

lol @ Georgia talking about Russia invading the country, while they have the third largest amount of troops in Irak.

[MannyIsGod]

You need only look at this shit to see in foreign relations its never about right and wrong so why do people try to act that way. Its only about who makes the best chess moves.

[Indazone]

George Bush caused all this!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The rough part is what can the U.S. do? The only thing I can even think of is get NATO to immediately admit Georgia into the organization, but who knows how Russia reacts in that case.

Reportedly Russia has requested to meet with reps from NATO this evening and/or tomorrow morning, so we'll see what comes of that...

[Indazone]

George W, should have given Russia a missle battery to defend Moscow against the terrorist regimes from the Middle East. From the man who once looked into Putin's eyes and said I saw his soul. Why is George W only giving missle defense shield capability to Nato countries and former Eastern Bloc countries that come over to Nato? Putin even offered an alternative. The Azerbaijan location as a forward location for missle defense. We were only told this wouldn't work and would leave gaps in our missle defense. Does anyone seriously believe all this BS?

Cheney and Bush are Neocons.

Unless of course, Russia is still the evil empire.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Alot is going to depend on how much the Georgian politicians and Georgian masses continue to react to USA's predictably benign responses to this event.
Portraying USA and the Western European countries as betrayers to the Georgian cause and democracy serves only to fuck Georgia further, and they should realize that soon enough, that is, if Russia doesn't completely occupy the country.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

http://uk.truveo.com/The-Simpsons-Soviet-Union/id/1103639424

Top 10 Simpsons scene.

[Tully365]

Russia is dealing with a threat that is sitting on its border. Do you think the USA would show more restraint if Mexico shot down two of our planes? One of the many problems that the Bush administration has is the complete inability to be objective. Russia was "evil" in the past for having a war with the humble religious Afghan people, and now for fighting with Georgia, but the US is "good" for fighting against the "religious extremists" in Afghanistan, the Taliban, who are the direct descendants of the Mujahadeen, who the elder Bush called "freedom fighters" and who the Pakistani President at the time Benazir Bhutto warned were shady characters to ally ourselves with-- a smart prophecy, seeing that their supporters recently assassinated her while leaving a military dictator in power in Pakistan for the US to support... All over the world right now, political leaders are shrugging their shoulders in disbelief and, most likely, in pathetic amusement, at the very idea that George Bush, who invaded Iraq and has been there for 5 years, is telling Russia that their "aggression" of less than one week is "unacceptable."

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do you think the USA would show more restraint if Mexico shot down two of our planes?

If we were knowingly flying them over their country and strafing them? Sure.

[Tully365]

If we were knowingly flying them over their country and strafing them? Sure.

Nice job avoiding the topics of Bhutto, Mujahadeen, supporting a military dictator (with WMDs), etc.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Nice job avoiding the topics of Bhutto, Mujahadeen, supporting a military dictator (with WMDs), etc.

I didn't avoid shit. You suck at reading comprehension.

[Tully365]

I didn't avoid shit. You suck at reading comprehension.

Do your owners feed you regular food or a special blend for angry little pitbulls?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do your owners feed you regular food or a special blend for angry little pitbulls?

Cute. Again, if the US of A was strafing and shelling the border towns of Mexico, I'd expect and wouldn't blame Mexico one fucking bit for retaliating. That's what you asked, so, however many times I need to say it to get it through that thick, cavernous, hollow cranium of yours, given that scenario I wouldn't be offended in the least if Mexico got tired of that shit and shot back.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend that, but you sure do seem hellbent on trying to prove you're smarter while proving you're an idiot through and through.

[Tully365]

Cute. Again, if the US of A was strafing and shelling the border towns of Mexico, I'd expect and wouldn't blame Mexico one fucking bit for retaliating. That's what you asked, so, however many times I need to say it to get it through that thick, cavernous, hollow cranium of yours, given that scenario I wouldn't be offended in the least if Mexico got tired of that shit and shot back.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend that, but you sure do seem hellbent on trying to prove you're smarter while proving you're an idiot through and through.

ruff ruff

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-gardels/brzezinski-russias-invasi_b_118029.html

On Sunday I talked with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the elder statesman who was national security advisor to President Jimmy Carter, about the Russian invasion of Georgia. He long tangled with Soviet power. Now he takes on Putin:


Nathan Gardels: What is the world to make of Russia's invasion of Georgia?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Fundamentally at stake is what kind of role Russia will play in the new international system. Unfortunately, Putin is putting Russia on a course that is ominously similar to Stalin's and Hitler's in the late 1930s. Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt has correctly drawn an analogy between Putin's "justification" for dismembering Georgia -- because of the Russians in South Ossetia -- to Hitler's tactics vis a vis Czechoslovakia to "free" the Sudeten Deutsch.

Even more ominous is the analogy of what Putin is doing vis-a-vis Georgia to what Stalin did vis-a-vis Finland: subverting by use of force the sovereignty of a small democratic neighbor. In effect, morally and strategically, Georgia is the Finland of our day

The question the international community now confronts is how to respond to a Russia that engages in the blatant use of force with larger imperial designs in mind: to reintegrate the former Soviet space under the Kremlin's control and to cut Western access to the Caspian Sea and Central Asia by gaining control over the Baku/ Ceyhan pipeline that runs through Georgia.

In brief, the stakes are very significant. At stake is access to oil as that resource grows ever more scarce and expensive and how a major power conducts itself in our newly interdepedent world, conduct that should be based on accommodation and consensus, not on brute force.

If Georgia is subverted, not only will the West be cut off from the Caspian Sea and Central Asia. We can logically anticipate that Putin, if not resisted, will use the same tactics toward the Ukraine. Putin has already made public threats against Ukraine.

Gardels: What, if anything, can the West do to contain this revived Russian behavior?

Brzezinski: Not only the West, but the rest of the international community, must make it clear that this kind of behavior will result in ostracism and economic and financial penalties. Ultimately, if Russia continues on this course, it must face isolation in the international community -- a longer range risk to its own well-being.

The United States, particularly, shoulders the major burden of mobilizing an collective international response. This invasion of Georgia by Russia is a very sad commentary on eight years of self-delusion in the White House regarding Putin and his regime. Two memorable comments stand out. First, when Bush first met Putin and said he looked into his soul and could trust him. Second, not long ago, Condi Rice claimed that American relations with Russia have never been better in history!

Gardels: John McCain has already suggested that Russia be expelled from the G8. Is that something you would contemplate?

Brzezinski: The G8 is an impotent fiction anyway. But It has to be much more than
that. It has to be a concerted effort on all levels -- at the United Nations, in the Atlantic Council, in the EU or in NATO, in consultation with the Japanese, the Chinese and others -- to convey to Russia that, whatever grievances it may have, it cannot resolve them by a deliberate policy of dismembering an adjoining state and
trying to obtain political domination over it.

Gardels: Is the West obliged to help Georgia resist the Russian attack with some kind of military support?

Brzezinski: The question is not what obligation the West may have at the moment. The question is about our longer term interest. If a Russia, which misjudges its power and its capacities embarks now on a blatantly nationalistic and imperialistic course, we will all suffer.

Therefore it is all the more important that Russia be stopped now by mobilizing a concerted, global effort to oppose and condemn the Russian invasion. Ultimately, that could lead to economic and financial sanctions, though one would hope that other Russian leaders, including its business elite, will have cooler heads and be more aware of Russia's own vulnerabilities. Russia is not ready to sustain a new cold war.

Gardels: Should the Atlantic Alliance urgently induct Georgia into NATO as one response?

Brzezinski: The West desisted from extending the NATO "membership action plan" to Georgia -- a preparatory stage for becoming a member -- out of deference to Russian objections. It is now clear that the deference shown to Putin, in the face of his obvious ambitions, has been counterproductive. In view of what has happened, NATO ought to extend the membership action plan to Georgia, therefore reinforcing the commitment NATO made in Bucharest last March
to the effect that NATO intends, at some future point, to include Georgia.

Gardels: You haven't mentioned Dmitri Medvedev, the the Russian president, once, but only Putin. Does Medvedev have any function in this?

Brzezinski: As much to do with it as the formal head of state of the Soviet Union in 1950 had to do with the running of the Soviet government. Does anyone remember his name? But the real ruler of the Soviet Union had a name that most still remember -- and it rhymes with Putin.....















Brzezinski has always viewed Nato as a positive western tool for extending American hegemony. Interesting to note how he seems to blow over the possible use of a Western military response and intimates that Russia is economically weaker than the media makes it seem. Unfortunately, his breed of hawk requires firm support from Western European nations......I guess the next chapter will unfold when we find out what exactly went on between Sarkozy and Russia.

[spurster]

It looks like BushCo was doing something right and tried to stop Georgia from starting its initial push into South Ossetia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html

August 13, 2008
After Mixed U.S. Messages, a War Erupted in Georgia
By HELENE COOPER and THOM SHANKER

WASHINGTON — One month ago, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, for a high-profile visit that was planned to accomplish two very different goals.

During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.

But publicly, Ms. Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. “I’m going to visit a friend and I don’t expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend,” she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia.

In the five days since the simmering conflict between Russia and Georgia erupted into war, Bush administration officials have been adamant in asserting that they warned the government in Tbilisi not to let Moscow provoke it into a fight — and that they were surprised when their advice went unheeded. Right up until the hours before Georgia launched its attack late last week in South Ossetia, Washington’s top envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, and other administration officials were warning the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate.

[spurster]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Third_Party_Graphic/2008/08/12/wasserman8_13__1218514069_9909-1.gif

[RandomGuy]

Brzezinski has always viewed Nato as a positive western tool for extending American hegemony. Interesting to note how he seems to blow over the possible use of a Western military response and intimates that Russia is economically weaker than the media makes it seem. Unfortunately, his breed of hawk requires firm support from Western European nations......I guess the next chapter will unfold when we find out what exactly went on between Sarkozy and Russia.

Russia's GDP in the 90's was roughly the size of Belgium's.

It's military is ill-led, ill-equipped, untrained, and unmotivated.

Some of that may have changed recently with a lot of money flowing in from oil revenues, but Russia's absolute embarassment in Chechnya, and ongoing hazing scandals do not paint a picture of a country at it's zenith.

[RandomGuy]

Hmm, browsed through the CIA factbook. Russia's GDP is still less than that of Germany.

"antiquated industrial base" was another phrase that stood out.

Oil revenues have been kind to them, though, and allowed them to pay down a lot of debt and build up a good chunk of foreign currency reserves.

[ThunderStix®]

I thought we were supposed to protect freedom everywhere. That's the rhetoric you've been espousing lately, right?

What he meant was, lets see if they make peace before we start thinking about getting involved.

If Russia doesn't stop the attacks, we may have to. We'll see.

[Nbadan]

Some of that may have changed recently with a lot of money flowing in from oil revenues, but Russia's absolute embarassment in Chechnya, and ongoing hazing scandals do not paint a picture of a country at it's zenith.

Wait a minute...couldn't you say the same thing about the U.S foray into Iraq? Militarily, a bunch of untrained, under-equipped, and under-supplied fighters were threatening to turn Iraq from the U.S. win column to the U.S. tie column - until the U.S. military figured out it was cheaper, and less hurtful politically for Dubya, to bribe them into not fighting us and doing our fighting for us against Al-Queda in Iraq (whatever that is)...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

we've got to protect our situation in relation to iran. that probably means talking loud and doing nothing

maybe europe can, er, do something for once. this is their turf imho
lol

no shit...bunch of spineless do nothings.

[RandomGuy]

Wait a minute...couldn't you say the same thing about the U.S foray into Iraq? Militarily, a bunch of untrained, under-equipped, and under-supplied fighters were threatening to turn Iraq from the U.S. win column to the U.S. tie column - until the U.S. military figured out it was cheaper, and less hurtful politically for Dubya, to bribe them into not fighting us and doing our fighting for us against Al-Queda in Iraq (whatever that is)...

???

You are confusing me with someone else.

I would not equate jihadists to the Russian military. That would be insulting to the jihadists who, in general, are volunteers.

Seriously though, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Winehole23]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article35322882.html