After Russian/Georgia mess, how can anyone...

[Gino]

Support Obama?


His response to this mess has been a joke! This is the guy we want to be the leader of our country?!!! The Russians and Chinese are gonna walk all over us.


This editorial from the New York Suns sums it up better than I can:


McCain Out Front
Editorial of The New York Sun | August 12, 2008
COMMENT | SHARE | PRINT | EMAIL Add to del.icio.us

The speed with which Senator McCain seized the leadership in the first foreign policy crisis of the presidential campaign may not be surprising. Mr. McCain after all, backed the surge strategy in Iraq, while Senator Obama and many others were opposing it. But his emergence on the Georgia crisis is no less impressive. When Russia took advantage of the Olympics to launch an operation aimed at ousting the democratically elected government in a neighboring country that is an aspiring NATO member, Mr. Obama, vacationing in Hawaii, initially called on both sides to exercise restraint. Mr. McCain saw it immediately for what it was, Russian aggression.

President Bush underscored the stakes in his Rose Garden remarks yesterday, saying it appeared an effort was underway to depose Georgia's democratically elected government. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Mr. Bush said.

In the conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia, we have no dog in the fight. Nor in the fight between Abkhazia and Georgia. But in the fight between Georgia and Moscow, American sympathies and interests lie with the former Soviet satellite now headed by a democratically elected government that has sought to throw in with the West.

Some might argue that America's interests lie with letting Moscow do what it wants, as it is a stronger power than Georgia. But if America is just going to abandon a friendly nation that sent troops to fight in Iraq — well, then American friendship will come to be devalued around the world, which will have its own great cost to America's interests.

Mr. McCain grasped as much in his statement yesterday, saying, "Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors such as Ukraine for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided of Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics."

Added Mr. McCain: "The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors. We have other important strategic interests at stake in Georgia, especially the continued flow of oil through the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which Russia attempted to bomb in recent days; the operation of a critical communication and trade route from Georgia through Azerbaijan and Central Asia; and the integrity and influence of NATO, whose members reaffirmed last April the territorial integrity, independence, and sovereignty of Georgia."

Mr. Obama, meanwhile, framed the issue not as one of values but as one of sovereignty. "The UN must stand up for the sovereignty of its members, and peace in the world," he said, an argument that just as easily might have been used against, say, the liberation of Iraq, or might be used in the future against an Israeli pre-emptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities. No one knows what conflicts the four years between 2008 and 2012 will bring, what will be the South Ossetia of 2010, the obscure region that suddenly becomes the focal point of a global crisis. But by the evidence so far Mr. McCain is more ready for the challenge than is Mr. Obama.

[Gino]

Im actually worried what will become of the world if Obama gets elected president. His ridiculous response to this mess has changed my whole attitude towards him.

[clambake]

The Russians and Chinese are gonna walk all over us.

are? have you been in a coma?

call your congressman and tell him "we need to protect this high moral ground we've leveled".

or you could just walk through life blaming a senator. :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

an argument that just as easily might have been used against, say, the liberation of Iraq, or might be used in the future against an Israeli pre-emptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.

That might be germane if the notion of liberation of peoples was actually a guiding value in American foreign policy; we all know it's not, since the concern for liberation is absolutely absent in many places where the suffering is far greater and the authoritarianism much more significant than existed in Saddam's Iraq. Where is the call for Iraq-like invasions into the autocratic regimes on the African continent? Or to end the absurd suffering going on in places like Darfur? Oh, yeah -- there's no resources there, so there's really no need to liberate the oppressed people in those places. American foreign policy isn't about liberation and the notion that Obama's response to Georgia would have guided opposition to "the liberation of Iraq" is ridiculous.

I find it interesting that McCain's rhetoric (as well as the sitting President's) is equally aimed at respecting sovereignity, yet somehow Obama is showing weakness by expressing concern for assuring sovereignity among and when was that concern somehow an unjustifiable stance when it comes to foreign policy?

Indeed, what the Sun seems to lament is the possibility that America might not have a hawkish president. It's curious that, in the end, the lack of true justifications for invading Iraq have placed the American government in the very position of ignoring the paramount concern that McCain, Bush, and Obama place on sovereignty in addressing the Georgia issue. In the end, the American invasion of Iraq turned out to be as much about regime change as anything else -- and regime change is fairly inconsistent with respecting the sovereignity of nations, regardless of who undertakes to create the regime change.

But, to make this all right, I think we should revoke Becky Hammon's citizenship. None of this crap happened until she decided to play basketball for the Russian Olympic team.

[GuerillaBlack]

Im actually worried what will become of the world if Obama gets elected president. His ridiculous response to this mess has changed my whole attitude towards him.

McCain and Obama both essentially said the same thing, "stop fighting". There's not a damn thing else to say.

[Gino]

More from the New York Post on this issue:


Following McCain's Lead on Russia, Iraq
By Rich Lowry

President Bush's assurance back in 2001 that he looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and liked what he saw was the international equivalent of his "heckuva job" boosterism of Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown in the immediate wake of Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

The two statements will compete for the dishonor of the most notoriously misbegotten he uttered as president. Bush's endorsement of Putin was partly a matter of calculation; when he says glowing things about foreign leaders in public, he tells those leaders in private how he expects them to deliver. But with Putin, Bush seemed as if he were playing Ned Flanders to Putin's Tony Soprano.

John McCain's assessment stands up much better: When he looked at Putin, "he saw three letters: a K, a G, and a B." Putin's neo-Soviet state has launched a nakedly illegal invasion of neighboring Georgia that is reminiscent of the Winter War against Finland at the outset of World War II. The Russian press is pumping out absurd lies about Georgian acts of genocide, even as the Russian military indiscriminately bombs and shells Georgian cities. Edward Gibbon's description of the Inquisition comes to mind -- nonsense defended by cruelty.

The Bush administration made twin mistakes with Russia. It overpersonalized relations, with Bush hoping to coax out Putin's better side, and tiptoed around Moscow in the hopes that gentle treatment would encourage it to act responsibly. The irony is that Barack Obama -- with his commitment to personal diplomacy and a gentler U.S. footprint around the world -- wants to make those two tendencies centerpieces of his foreign policy.

The Bush and Obama statements in the immediate wake of the crisis could have been issued by a joint campaign. Bush's spokeswoman urged "all parties," both Georgians and Russians, "to de-escalate the tension and avoid conflict." Obama declared that "now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint." In their implied moral equivalence, these reactions were a little like urging the Kuwaitis to de-escalate with Saddam's Iraq in August 1990. :lol

Upon flying back from Beijing, Bush issued a sterner rebuke of Russia from the Rose Garden Monday. He said its apparent plan to topple Georgia's democratically elected government is "unacceptable in the 21st century." But, absent the threat of credible consequences for Moscow's defiance, it's unclear why Russia wouldn't tighten its stranglehold on Georgia.

It's true that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili allowed himself to be baited into military action in the breakaway province of South Ossetia. But let's be clear who was doing the baiting and why. Russia had supported South Ossetian forces attacking Georgian villages and troops in order to detach the province slowly from Georgia or provoke a military confrontation that Georgia could never win. Mission accomplished.

The larger strategic goal is to keep the pro-Western independent states on Russia's border in turmoil. As George Kennan said, on its borders Russia can have only vassals or enemies. Russia's neighbors have an incentive to be clear-eyed about this, which is why the presidents of the Baltic States and Poland all condemned "meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers."

McCain's proposal from a few months ago to boot Russia from the G-8 has gone from seeming needlessly provocative to practically prescient. Together with the surge in Iraq, the Georgian crisis is the second strategic matter on which everyone else has followed the senator's lead.

McCain warned of Russian designs on its "near-abroad" when Boris Yeltsin was still in power, and advocated the enlargement of NATO into Eastern Europe -- as a way to cement those countries into the West and check Russian adventurism -- years before the Clinton administration adopted it as policy.

McCain's judgment benefits from years of marinating in national-security issues and traveling and getting to know the key players; from a hatred of tinpot dictators and bloody thugs that guides his moral compass; and from a flinty realism (verging at times on fatalism) that is resistant to illusions about personalities, or the inevitable direction of History, or the nature of the world.

Putin launched his assault on Georgia on the same day the Olympics opened with the theme of "One World, One Dream." Putin put paid to that within hours with steel and blood. All you need to know about his soul is the testimony of the rocket launchers and T-72 tanks still flowing into Georgia.

© 2008 by King Features Syndicate

[lebomb]

McCain and Obama both essentially said the same thing, "stop fighting". There's not a damn thing else to say.

No shit......what else could Obama say??? We dont have enough of anything to go in there and straighten things out.....no money, no oil, no military personnel.


WHEN IS THE US GOING TO STOP POLICING THE WORLD?? :rolleyes

[Gino]

McCain and Obama both essentially said the same thing, "stop fighting". There's not a damn thing else to say.

Only McCain also called for an immediate emergency meeting of NATO and a boot of Russia from the G-8.

Obama went body surfing.

[FromWayDowntown]

WHEN IS THE US GOING TO STOP POLICING THE WORLD?? :rolleyes

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Team_America-one-sheet_L.jpg

[GuerillaBlack]

Only McCain also called for an immediate emergency meeting of NATO and a boot of Russia from the G-8.

Obama went body surfing.

It's all just talk. McCain isn't President. Did countries try to kick the US out of the G-8 when we (wrongfully) invaded Iraq?

[Gino]

I don't get it. One minute, liberals are calling for one percent of our GDP to be donated to foreign aid. The next, they're saying "lets just stay out of it".

Can't have it both ways. Sorry.

[Gino]

It's all just talk. McCain isn't President. Did countries try to kick the US out of the G-8 when we (wrongfully) invaded Iraq?

You can bet your ass China and Russia are hoping for an Obama presidency after seeing the reactions of both McCain and Obama this past week.

[GuerillaBlack]

I don't get it. One minute, liberals are calling for one percent of our GDP to be donated to foreign aid. The next, they're saying "lets just stay out of it".

Can't have it both ways. Sorry.

Foreign aid, as in helping a poverty stricken country correct? You don't see the difference?

[FromWayDowntown]

Foreign aid, as in helping a poverty stricken country correct? You don't see the difference?

We should invade to liberate oppressed people -- except in places where people are truly oppressed!!!!

[GuerillaBlack]

You can bet your ass China and Russia are hoping for an Obama presidency after seeing the reactions of both McCain and Obama this past week.

The world is hoping for an Obama presidency. No one wants the same old, same old for the next four years. But McCain isn't doing anything to help himself this week, especially with the DHL issues.

[lebomb]

You can bet your ass China and Russia are hoping for an Obama presidency after seeing the reactions of both McCain and Obama this past week.


I see it the other way.....they want McCain.....so we can go to war with them with minimal military bases, troops, money and oil. Oh yeah, we will kick some ass. :rolleyes

Look back at history my man.......every single solitary World Power has fallen.......every single one. I just hope the US realizes this before we go off wanting to kick everyones ass.

[clambake]

Only McCain also called for an immediate emergency meeting of NATO and a boot of Russia from the G-8.

Obama went body surfing.

he also called for abolishing the salary caps in sports and looking at britney and paris instead of him. BFD

what we need is a sec. of state.

[Gino]

Foreign aid, as in helping a poverty stricken country correct? You don't see the difference?

Foreign aid...as in Georgia:


Georgia: Foreign aid challenge
Huge infusion of US aid expected to directly benefit half a million Georgians, though some analysts have their doubts.
By Tamar Khorbaladze and Manana Khidasheli in Tbilisi (CRS No. 310, 20-Oct-05)

An unprecedented programme of US aid was last week ratified by the Georgian parliament, representing a major foreign policy victory -- but there are lingering questions about how the money will be spent.

The package gives Georgia 295 million US dollars over five years, a substantial boost for the country.

[clambake]

so, you want the US and NATO to act?

you're fucking crazy!

[Gino]

The world is hoping for an Obama presidency. No one wants the same old, same old for the next four years. But McCain isn't doing anything to help himself this week, especially with the DHL issues.

Im sure the Russians and Chinese are.

I mean, think about it. Another Regean/Thatcher, or another Carter? Which adversary would they rather face?

[Gino]

so, you want the US and NATO to act?

you're fucking crazy!

No, I want to catch a wave with Obama!

I was always a fan of Brian Wilson.

[GuerillaBlack]

Im sure the Russians and Chinese are.

I mean, think about it. Another Regean/Thatcher, or another Carter? Which adversary would they rather face?

The world wants an Obama presidency, so I'm pretty sure Russia and China are apart of the world. If McCain is elected, four more years of Bush.

[clambake]

No, I want to catch a wave with Obama!

I was always a fan of Brian Wilson.

get a head start. when does your flight leave for Gori?

[FromWayDowntown]

It's funny that candidate Obama is criticized for vacationing during this crisis while the sitting President, well, um, well, he um, see, he was um:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20080809/2008_08_09t103004_380x450_us_olympics_bush.jpg?x=2 91&y=345&sig=ophw1Y4gMXeiQFInmyYOPw--

[Gino]

The world wants an Obama presidency, so I'm pretty sure Russia and China are apart of the world. If McCain is elected, four more years of Bush.

Ah...the proverbial "John McCain is George W. Bush in disguise" agrument (only you forgot to mention that he's much older too).

I like "Grampy McSame" the best.

[Gino]

get a head start. when does your flight leave for Gori?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Obama-Surf.jpg

Barrack moves into action!

[Gino]

It's funny that candidate Obama is criticized for vacationing during this crisis while the sitting President, well, um, well, he um, see, he was um:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20080809/2008_08_09t103004_380x450_us_olympics_bush.jpg?x=2 91&y=345&sig=ophw1Y4gMXeiQFInmyYOPw--

Im glad we're bringing up Bush since he's running again.

Oh wait....youre one of the guys who believes they're the same person.

[FromWayDowntown]

Im glad we're bringing up Bush since he's running again.

Oh wait.

Yes, well the reactions of the sitting President are far less significant right now than the hypothetical responses of the candidates to succeed him. . . .

[FromWayDowntown]

...youre one of the guys who believes they're the same person.

Nah, not me, but a quality effort at assumption on your part.

I think htere are plenty of things to criticize both McCain and Obama about -- I just don't think that the Sun's criticisms of Obama in this situation are particularly meaningful. It's carries about the same weight with me as the nonsensical generalizations that lead to one calling Obama a socialist or McCain a neo-con.

[Gino]

Yes, well the reactions of the sitting President are far less significant right now than the hypothetical responses of the candidates to succeed him. . . .


What hypothetical? We saw their actual responses this past week. Unless you believe Obama would be different as President than how he is now.

[clambake]

get a head start. when does your flight leave for Gori?

well?

[Gino]

well?

Ha! Sorry to bust your Obama-bubble. :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

What hypothetical? We saw their actual responses this past week. Unless you believe Obama would be different as President than how he is now.

Explain to me what power is currently possessed by either McCain or Obama to change the course of events in Georgia? Until either has some power to make a difference there, they're responses are entirely hypothetical. To say nothing of the fact that it's absurd to believe that the rhetoric of a candidate running for office will absolutely match the actions of that individual should he or she be elected to that office. It's one thing for the candidate to say what he would or wouldn't do in the abstract -- there's an entirely different level of practicality that comes into play when other levels of advisors and other branches of government become involved in a scenario.

[Gino]

Explain to me what power is currently possessed by either McCain or Obama to change the course of events in Georgia? Until either has some power to make a difference there, they're responses are entirely hypothetical. To say nothing of the fact that it's absurd to believe that the rhetoric of a candidate running for office will absolutely match the actions of that individual should he or she be elected to that office. It's one thing for the candidate to say what he would or wouldn't do in the abstract -- there's an entirely different level of practicality that comes into play when other levels of advisors and other branches of government become involved in a scenario.


I agree that candidates will say or do anything to get elected, and most of the time they're just blowing smoke, but Obama versus McCain's response to this crisis demonstrates their fundamental differences on foreign policy.

Whats wrong is wrong and the president shouldn't be afraid to say so (insert Iraq War was WRONG rebuttal right here). Obama has no excuse for not seriously condemning the Russian agression as McCain did. McCain's the only one with the balls to stand up to Putin.

[Indazone]

Because maybe we don't want to piss Russia off and want to work with them in the future.

[Gino]

Because maybe we don't want to piss Russia off and want to work with them in the future.

Where does that end? To what extent is Russia aloud to do whatever it wants?

[FromWayDowntown]

Whats wrong is wrong and the president shouldn't be afraid to say so (insert Iraq War was WRONG rebuttal right here). Obama has no excuse for not seriously condemning the Russian agression as McCain did. McCain's the only one with the balls to stand up to Putin.

Oh, so if Obama had said that what the Russians did was really, really, really, really, really, really, really wrong and said that the American people were very, very, very, very, very, very, very mad, he'd have more of the foreign policy chops that you think a President needs?

I'm not sure how one guy saying "Russia must respect the sovereignity of other nations" is all that different from the other guy saying "Russia must respect the sovereignity of other nations and I really mean that and I'm going to be very mad if Russia doesn't respect the sovereignty of other nations because not respecting the sovereignity of other nations is indicative of poor values."

And, again, I'm not sure that the United States of America has exactly staked out the moral high ground when it comes to telling the nations of the world to respect the sovereignity of other governments.

[Indazone]

Where does that end? To what extent is Russia aloud to do whatever it wants?


You mean like the USA invasion of Iraq and regime change?

[Gino]

You mean like the USA invasion of Iraq and regime change?

So Bush's invasion of Iraq means that its okay for the Putin to invade Georgia?

Im not suprised by this response. Anyone else who wants to stop talking about this conflict and debate about the legality of the Iraq War please take it to a thread from four years ago.

[Indazone]

It is not ok for any country to invade another one with impunity. But no one in the US, least of all Bush has the right to say to Russia that their invasion is wrong, get out now and leave the peace loving people of Georgia alone after the US invaded Iraq and basically did the same thing.

[GuerillaBlack]

So Bush's invasion of Iraq means that its okay for the Putin to invade Georgia?

Double standard FTMFW!

[Gino]

Double standard FTMFW!

Who's calling for the double standard? Youre all okay with blasting Bush but not Putin?

[Indazone]

Someone should blast Russia but it can't be us. What credibility do we have now on this issue?

[whottt]

It's funny that candidate Obama is criticized for vacationing during this crisis while the sitting President, well, um, well, he um, see, he was um:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20080809/2008_08_09t103004_380x450_us_olympics_bush.jpg?x=2 91&y=345&sig=ophw1Y4gMXeiQFInmyYOPw--


Seriously...if Bush had any balls he'd be fighting communism and meeting with Putin face to face.

[whottt]

Someone should blast Russia but it can't be us. What credibility do we have now on this issue?

And the Russians have credibility?

You're an idiot...

[Gino]

This editorial form the Chicago Sun Times:


McCain, not Obama, was right about Georgia
STEVE HUNTLEY [email protected]
Mention Georgia a few days ago, and most of us would have thought of the state evoked so sweetly in "Georgia on My Mind," the classic tune sung by Ray Charles. Very few of us had heard of the South Ossetia province of Georgia, the nation with the misfortune to have Russia as its neighbor, until war broke out last week.

Like Kosovo, Bosnia, Kuwait and other unfamiliar places before, Ossetia reminds us that a small, remote corner of the globe can explode into an international crisis. One who was up to speed on Georgia and the menace it faced from Russia was veteran Sen. John McCain. He had visited the Caucasian nation three times in a dozen years. When fighting erupted, the presumptive Republican presidential candidate got on the phone to gather details and issued a statement Friday summarizing the situation, tagging Russia as the aggressor and demanding it withdraw its forces from the sovereign territory of Georgia.

It took first-term Sen. Barack Obama three tries to get it right. Headed for a vacation in Hawaii, the presumed Democratic candidate for commander in chief issued an even-handed statement, urging restraint by both sides. Later Friday, he again called for mutual restraint but blamed Russia for the fighting. The next day his language finally caught up with toughness of McCain's.

Making matters worse, Obama's staff focused on a McCain aide who had served as a lobbyist for Georgia, charging it showed McCain was "ensconced in a lobbyist culture." Obama's campaign came off as injecting petty partisan politics into an international crisis. This was not a serious response on behalf a man who aspires to be the leader of the Free World. After all, what's so bad about representing a small former Soviet republic struggling to remake itself as a Western-style democracy?

The comparison between the two candidates served to emphasize the strength McCain's experience would bring to the White House in a dangerous world.

Obama's favored approach to international issues, diplomatic talks, failed to stop Russia's invasion. Vladimir Putin, a KGB bull in the former Soviet Union, wants to restore Russia as the supreme power of Eurasia and, to that end, bully former vassal states like Georgia out of their democratic ways. The fear is that Ukraine will come in his cross hairs next.

However the world's newest war ends, America's leadership must recognize and respond to the underlying dynamic of Russia's resurgent aggressive instincts -- the power bestowed on Moscow by its oil and gas riches.

While we don't get fossil fuels from Russia, Western Europe does, and the Kremlin's energy might is fueled by the worldwide demand for oil. Developing U.S. domestic energy sources and alternatives to oil will only enhance our national security and, by reducing the world's petroleum demand, undermine the economic, political and military advantage vast oil and gas reserves give to unfriendly powers like Russia, Iran and Venezuela.

Obama calls for transforming America's economy in a decade. He's got the right idea -- long term. But short term, this nation must push for energy security on all fronts -- now. That includes new offshore drilling for oil, which Obama loathes, and new nuclear plants, which he views with aversion. We can't just wait for breakthrough technologies for wind, solar and biomass energy.

McCain has got it right in advocating new offshore drilling and a federal push to add 45 nuclear generators over the next two decades. Given the evidence of Russia's energy-fueled aggression, he should abandon his opposition to drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve and to extending subsidies he favors for nuclear energy to include renewables.

As Georgia burns, we need to light a fire under all the talk about energy security and start doing what it takes to make it happen.

All the garbage rhetoric doesn't mean jack in the real world. Its nice that we got a clear shot of exactly what these two men are made of.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Im actually worried what will become of the world if Obama gets elected president. His ridiculous response to this mess has changed my whole attitude towards him.

you were gonna vote for him before this?

[Gino]

you were gonna vote for him before this?

I was thinking about it. I read the Audacity of Hope back in May and thought he had some really good ideas.

Especially when it came to education.

But this campaign has shown me:

1) He's unbelievably arrogant
2) He's a typical politician
3) He doesn't have strong leadership skills
4) He'll back down from a fight thats not easy.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Its nice that we got a clear shot of exactly what these two men are made of.

because you bolded some editorial writer's opinion, we have a clear shot of exactly what these two men are made of?

I think we've found talk radio's target audience.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I was thinking about it.

liar

[Gino]

because you bolded some editorial writer's opinion, we have a clear shot of exactly what these two men are made of?

I think we've found talk radio's target audience.

You idiot. The snapshot is the two men's respective reactions to this crisis, not the editorial.

[Gino]

liar

:rolleyes

[Oh, Gee!!]

You idiot. The snapshot is the two men's respective reactions to this crisis, not the editorial.

both asked for the violence to end, and for a resolution.

[Oh, Gee!!]

but McCain said it in a louder voice, so he's more qualified

[ChumpDumper]

McCain wouldn't stop Russia any more than Bush is now. Both candidates would be ineffectual in this situation. These editorials just say that they prefer McCain's impotence more than Obama's

[Gino]

both asked for the violence to end, and for a resolution.

Maybe you should read the first couple pages of this thread. Obama asked for peace, went boogey boarding, saw what John McCain did, waited a little while longer and then said something similar to J-Mac.

I think that 3 a.m. phone call question Hillary's camp put out has been answered. I'll take "Grampy McSame" over Barry any day of the week.

[ChumpDumper]

So McCain saved Georgia over the weekend?

I missed that one.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Maybe you should read the first couple pages of this thread. Obama asked for peace, went boogey boarding, saw what John McCain did, waited a little while longer and then said something similar to J-Mac.

I think that 3 a.m. phone call question Hillary's camp put out has been answered. I'll take "Grampy McSame" over Barry any day of the week.


so you want someone who's quick to anger and will make rash decisions to involve our military in armed conflicts on the other side of the world, even if our immediate safety is not at stake?

[Oh, Gee!!]

or maybe just barking loudly is enough? cuz that's all your boy actually did.

[Oh, Gee!!]

.

[GuerillaBlack]

so you want someone who's quick to anger and will make rash decisions to involve our military in armed conflicts on the other side of the world, even if our immediate safety is not at stake?

You are teh winnar.

[spurster]

Is tough language how the GOP is going to solve tough problems? Is this a follow-on to BushCo shooting off his mouth? Bring it on!

[Gino]

so you want someone who's quick to anger and will make rash decisions to involve our military in armed conflicts on the other side of the world, even if our immediate safety is not at stake?

Because John McCain called for bombing Russia, right?

Wrong.

Sorry youre boy let you down, but you don't have to lie about what JUST happened!

[Oh, Gee!!]

Because John McCain called for bombing Russia, right?

Wrong.

so what exactly did McCain do except bump his gums?

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously, the real big balls thing to do would be to call for Georgia to be immediately admitted to NATO.

Anyone say that?

[ChumpDumper]

Because John McCain called for bombing Russia, right?

Wrong.Exactly. So all of McCain's talk added up to nothing, because nothing short of military intervention is going to stop Russia.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Maybe if we yell loudly they'll stop.

[Gino]

UK article on this issues


McCain and Obama use conflict in Georgia to prove foreign policy mettle

• John McCain suggests Nato delay encouraged Russian action
• Barack Obama calls for both sides to practice restraint

Elana Schor in Washington guardian.co.uk, Monday August 11 2008 17:34 BST
Article history

Republican presidential candidate John McCain speaks during a town hall meeting Monday, Aug. 11 at the GE Transportation Erie Plant in Erie, Pa. Photograph: Mary Altaffer/AP

John McCain today suggested that Nato's delay in accepting Georgia to the alliance encouraged Russia to pursue military action against its neighbour, pulling the Caucasus conflict deeper into the US elections.

McCain and Democratic rival Barack Obama have traded fire over the crisis in Georgia since hostilities erupted there last week. Obama issued a measured call for restraint on both sides, while the Republican nominee was quick to condemn Russia for its aggression - a response that began to appear prescient as Moscow escalated the conflict.

McCain seized on the conflict again today during a campaign stop in Pennsylvania, remarking that Nato's decision to delay Georgian membership in the alliance this year "might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks".

"I urge Nato allies to revisit the decision," McCain said. Echoing his past support for removing Russia from the G8, he urged the US to convene an emergency meeting of G7 foreign ministers.

The decision to critique Moscow is a risky one for McCain, whose senior foreign policy adviser has profited from lobbying contracts with the Tbilisi government of Mikheil Saakashvili.

But the gamble looks to be paying off. When the Obama camp cited McCain's Georgia-connected adviser, Randy Scheunemann, as proof that the candidate is too close to lobbyists, the Republican fired back.

McCain accused his opponent of being "bizarrely in sync with Moscow," angering Obama backers who perceived the dig as a subtle invocation of communism.

His statement today indirectly jabbed at Obama with a reference to "Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families … [who] may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia". Obama is currently on a weeklong holiday in Hawaii.

McCain went further than the White House has by proposing a US package of "immediate economic and humanitarian assistance" for the Georgian government. Obama has yet to address the prospect of formal US aid to Georgia.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/11/johnmccain.barackobama


I think this article resoundly ends three things Ive seen on this board:

1) They're reactions were the same
2) McCain said to go to war with Russia
3) The only way to stop the Russians is with war.

Advantage: McCain.

[Gino]

You guys keep convincing yourself if you want that your guy has what it takes to be president.

Ciao.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys keep convincing yourself if you want that your guy has what it takes to be president.

Ciao.You keep convincing yourself that McCain could actually do anything about Russia.

[cheguevara]

It's all Obama's fault!!!

[Ignignokt]

If obama becomes president, he isn't going to have time to sackride McCain's decisions.

Yes, the US can't do anything right now, but one should be weary of OBama's moral equivocation of the two countries, how do we trust him to back up our allies. Are we looking at Jimmy Carter 2.0?

Yes, attacking Russia would launch this world into WW3, but what if Iran attacks Israel and its 3 am in Washington?

WHat will Obamer say?

"I think both of you guys should sit in your corners and think loud and hard about this"

Atleast we'll know that JOhn McCain would use military force in this particular situation.

[ChumpDumper]

Why would McCain use military force in that situation? Israel is quite capable of defending itself against the kind of attack that Iran would launch.

[Ignignokt]

Why would McCain use military force in that situation? Israel is quite capable of defending itself against the kind of attack that Iran would launch.

because other arab countries would join like SYria, and russia would help through proxies.

[ChumpDumper]

because other arab countries would join like SYria, and russia would help through proxies.Iran is not an Arab country.

[MannyIsGod]

Gino just doesn't understand that McCain's talk means nothing because he can't do anything about it.

Gino, let me put it to you this way. If I had come out and said before McCain and Obama that Nato should do this and blah blah blah would that mean I was more qualified than either to be president? Your argument is really really bad.

[Ignignokt]

Iran is not an Arab country.

Hezbollah is not an Arab organization, yet they have the support of Syria, and the sunni terrorist groups.

[ChumpDumper]

Hezbollah is not an Arab organization, yet they have the support of Syria, and the sunni terrorist groups.Why are you trying to change the subject when your ignorance about Iran has been exposed?

[Ignignokt]

Gino just doesn't understand that McCain's talk means nothing because he can't do anything about it.

Gino, let me put it to you this way. If I had come out and said before McCain and Obama that Nato should do this and blah blah blah would that mean I was more qualified than either to be president? Your argument is really really bad.

We get it MannyisMonkeyPlacenta! Obama promised free banana machines at every zoo cage in america.

[MannyIsGod]

If obama becomes president, he isn't going to have time to sackride McCain's decisions.

Yes, the US can't do anything right now, but one should be weary of OBama's moral equivocation of the two countries, how do we trust him to back up our allies. Are we looking at Jimmy Carter 2.0?

Yes, attacking Russia would launch this world into WW3, but what if Iran attacks Israel and its 3 am in Washington?

WHat will Obamer say?

"I think both of you guys should sit in your corners and think loud and hard about this"

Atleast we'll know that JOhn McCain would use military force in this particular situation.

How would Iran be able to attack Israel? You think the US would need to step in there? I think its really funny that people who have no idea of the worlds current military situations are still voting in case another WW2 breaks out when a war of that nature is almost impossible now.

The Russian Georgian conflict is going to end in the very short future because the Russians can't afford to fight very long. War is incredibly expensive and incredibly difficult to wage on anything more than a limited local level right now because of that.

[MannyIsGod]

We get it MannyisMonkeyPlacenta! Obama promised free banana machines at every zoo cage in america.

I get it, your arguments have zero merit so you devolve to your usual set of played out insults. How does it feel to be dumber than this monkey?

[Ignignokt]

How would Iran be able to attack Israel? You think the US would need to step in there? I think its really funny that people who have no idea of the worlds current military situations are still voting in case another WW2 breaks out when a war of that nature is almost impossible now.

The Russian Georgian conflict is going to end in the very short future because the Russians can't afford to fight very long. War is incredibly expensive and incredibly difficult to wage on anything more than a limited local level right now because of that.

Monkeys wouldn't know what ballistic missiles are, so i don't figure they could see an attack from iran as plausible. WHy am i wasting my time with some ass who believes he knows about the weather?

[FromWayDowntown]

I love this place -- substantive arguments every time I drop into a new thread.

[Ignignokt]

I love this place -- substantive arguments every time I drop into a new thread.

Aside from you acting like an ass. You would have to admit, that Obama's weakness from people are that he might be weak on foreign defense. With him morally equivocating the first time around, he didn't help his case now did he.

You can drop the whole US vs Russia thing because this has nothing to do with that.

[spurster]

I am confused how calling for restraint is moral equivocation.

[Ignignokt]

I am confused how calling for restraint is moral equivocation.

I'm sorry obama didn't flat out say " Hey guys, lets moraly equivocate now and put down your weapons."

If you can't see moral equivocation in how Russia being an aggressor by attacking Georgia, obama tells both sides to put down their arms, then there's a weather thread for all the fucktards who never heard of the Weather Channel in the Club Forum.

[ChumpDumper]

If you can't see that Iran is not an Arab country, you should probably educate yourself more before spouting off in a political forum.

I await your attempt to distract with personal insults.

[FromWayDowntown]

Aside from you acting like an ass. You would have to admit, that Obama's weakness from people are that he might be weak on foreign defense. With him morally equivocating the first time around, he didn't help his case now did he.

You can drop the whole US vs Russia thing because this has nothing to do with that.

So questioning the right-wing's view of Obama is acting like an ass?

I've never even brought up the whole US v. Russia thing, so I'm not sure why I need to drop that now or be reminded that it has nothing to do with anything discussed here. My point all along has been that there's very little rhetorical difference between what McCain said "we really don't like you invading Georgia because we value Georgia and insist that others respect the sovereignty of other nation states, including Georgia, and people should look really hard at Russia now" and what Obama said "we really think that the sovereignty of nations should be respected." The only difference I've seen is that McCain: (1) didn't happen to be on vacation at the time; and (2) he suggested anger beyond his admonitions about not invading other countries. I'm not sure that either is particularly significant; and I'm not sure that a candidate who "merely" suggests that sovereignty be respected is implicated in any sort of moral equivocation -- it's not as if he said the Russians were right and then said that they were wrong. You might challenge him for not having been more strident, but that's not moral equivocation.

I've also said that it's absurd to chastize Obama for boogey boarding during the invasion, given what the President of the nation was up to at the same time.

And, ultimately, I've said that for all three men, there's great irony in an American political leader clamoring for the respect of sovereign states.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm sorry obama didn't flat out say " Hey guys, lets moraly equivocate now and put down your weapons."

If you can't see moral equivocation in how Russia being an aggressor by attacking Georgia, obama tells both sides to put down their arms, then there's a weather thread for all the fucktards who never heard of the Weather Channel in the Club Forum.

What's the moral equivocation there. I can't even see that he's speaking equivocally in asking both sides to put down their arms. That seems like a pragmatic approach to ending the violence as soon as possible. I'm not sure that it's the best approach to the problem to condemn the invasion stridently while nothing is being done to bring an rapid end to the hostilities.

One thing is for sure -- the increase in nonsense politicobabble like "moral equivocation" is the surest signs that the conventions are nearing and that the fall campaign will soon be in full swing.

[MannyIsGod]

Monkeys wouldn't know what ballistic missiles are, so i don't figure they could see an attack from iran as plausible. WHy am i wasting my time with some ass who believes he knows about the weather?

So if Iran were to attack Israel with ballistic weapons you think they'd somehow need the United States to fight back? I'm assuming you know very little about the use of ballistic weapons and how ineffective they are as war fighting weapons unless loaded with weapons of mass destruction because there is no other reason you'd propose that US help would be needed in such a situation.

[hater]

I agree that these problems with Russia are not good news for Obama. Usually when there is international tension, ppl will vote for the more hardline candidate.

I can see Mcain campaign will milk this for all it's worth. I will say it right now, if this tension escalates, Obama has no chance.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I can see Mcain campaign will milk this for all it's worth.

I doubt it. His stomach probably cannot tolerate milk at this late stage of his life.

[MannyIsGod]

If you want to say that this is bad for Obama politically that is one thing. But equating what is good for a candidate politically and what is reality can be two very different things because of how political opions are formed. The fact that Republicans are percived to be the best in teh foriegn policy department when they've headed 8 straight years of absolutely horrible foriegn policy is more than enough proof of that.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm sorry obama didn't flat out say " Hey guys, lets moraly equivocate now and put down your weapons."

If you can't see moral equivocation in how Russia being an aggressor by attacking Georgia, obama tells both sides to put down their arms, then there's a weather thread for all the fucktards who never heard of the Weather Channel in the Club Forum.

This of course took place after Georgia launched an attack on South Ossetia for four days. During the Olympics, no less. But yeah, Georgia is totally innocent here. :rolleyes

Obama's response was perfect. There is no diplomacy here, just two children in a sandbox swinging at each other. What the hell is he going to do as the presumptive democratic nominee for an office that's presently already taken? Obama knows any hard stance against Russia is not only devoid of an ability to change things, but it could antagonize Putin and actually push the Russians further along.

It's sad, really. After the shitstorm that Iraq has been, we have a guy who comes along and states, "Can we please do this without weapons? I think that would be the best solution." And you're attempting to lambaste him for it.

BOTH countries are in the wrong. Both need to be sanctioned for what happened, a senseless slaughter during a time of world unity.

But hey, I guess I understand McCain's policy behind supporting Georgia. After all, they invaded just like we did. We're practically brothers! Let's support them because they espouse the guise of democracy whilst simultaneously attempting to gain power through their military! That's the kind of nation we need to support!

[Ignignokt]

If you can't see that Iran is not an Arab country, you should probably educate yourself more before spouting off in a political forum.

I await your attempt to distract with personal insults.

i didnt say iran was an arab country.

correction i did imply it by saying "other arab countries" seeing how Iran is not arab but persian, yes that was incorrect.

Still the fact is that it's not safe to assume that arab countries will not comply with iran.

[Cry Havoc]

i didnt say iran was an arab country.

Failboat. Nice try though.

[Ignignokt]

Failboat. Nice try though.
Lame,

I see u get your rocks off at the 4chan. :lol

[Ignignokt]

If you want to say that this is bad for Obama politically that is one thing. But equating what is good for a candidate politically and what is reality can be two very different things because of how political opions are formed. The fact that Republicans are percived to be the best in teh foriegn policy department when they've headed 8 straight years of absolutely horrible foriegn policy is more than enough proof of that.

and that's what i said, this has nothing to do with swordfighting Russia.

[Cry Havoc]

Lame,

I see u get your rocks off at the 4chan. :lol

I know my demographics, unlike one of us. You just bandied about your ignorance for the entire board to see, so I would seriously stop attempting to put others in their place.

[ChumpDumper]

because other arab countries would join like SYria, and russia would help through proxies.And seriously, if Syria is a real military threat to Israel, they should have been able to keep Israel from occupying about 500 square miles of their land for over forty years.

[Gino]

If you can't see that Iran is not an Arab country, you should probably educate yourself more before spouting off in a political forum.

I await your attempt to distract with personal insults.

LMAO! What an ASSHOLE!!!

If you asked 99% percent of the population is Iran was an Arab country they would probably say yes. Does that mean that 99% of the population isn't educated enough on this issue?

Im guessing most people in political forums couldn't tell you why Iran is not an Arabic country. I guess most people should stay out of political forums.

Youre SOOOOOOOOO much more educated than Ignignokt, Chumpdumper. Is that what you want?

[Gino]

Failboat. Nice try though.

Actually, he's right. I just read it again and he didn't say that Iran was an Arab country. He said that other Arab countries would join in.

If he said "other countries would join in", that wouldn't be wrong. He was just describing the countries he was talking about to you uneducated folk.

Nice attempt to change the subject by nitpicking at a single statment of his, though.

[clambake]

anyone trying to be president should know about countries borders, especially when you're threatening them.

[ChumpDumper]

LMAO! What an ASSHOLE!!!You mad?


If you asked 99% percent of the population is Iran was an Arab country they would probably say yes. Does that mean that 99% of the population isn't educated enough on this issue?Yes. Yes it does.


Im guessing most people in political forums couldn't tell you why Iran is not an Arabic country. I guess most people should stay out of political forums.I agree that many people are are as ignorant as gtown. That is not an excuse for ignorance however.


Youre SOOOOOOOOO much more educated than Ignignokt, Chumpdumper. Is that what you want?I don't know his overall education level, but it's pretty clear that he was ignorant in this particular instance. If you are averse to educating yourself further or want to actively discourage others from educating themselves just because you think everybody is ignorant anyway, that's your business. I tend to think the opposite is more desirable.

[Gino]

You mad?

Yes. Yes it does.

I agree that many people are are as ignorant as gtown. That is not an excuse for ignorance however.

I don't know his overall education level, but it's pretty clear that he was ignorant in this particular instance. If you are averse to educating yourself further or want to actively discourage others from educating themselves just because you think everybody is ignorant anyway, that's your business. I tend to think the opposite is more desirable.


You know what I have to say to that?

Whatever.

Reason all you want, but you reacted as if including Iran as an Arab country is like saying the earth is freaking flat.

"If you can't see that Iran isn't an Arab country..blah blah blah blah blah"

- C.D.

You a first class jackass in my book. Why don't you try just having a civilized discussion instead of trying to nitpick at other people's post in an effort to feel better about youre own intelligence.

[ChumpDumper]

You know what I have to say to that?

Whatever.Which is why you continue bitching about it.


You a first class jackass in my book.Your opinion matters so much to me.
Why don't you try just having a civilized discussion instead of trying to nitpick at other people's post in an effort to feel better about youre own intelligence.Because I like it when people like you respond like this.

BTW, it's "your" :downspin:

[Gino]

Which is why you continue bitching about it.

Your opinion matters so much to me. Because I like it when people like you respond like this.

BTW, it's "your" :downspin:

You got me there. Thats actually one of my pet peeves that I just broke (using the wrong "your").

[Kermit]

I love how threads on here always devolve into Manny/monkey insults. Makes my day.

[ChumpDumper]

You got me there. Thats actually one of my pet peeves that I just broke (using the wrong "your").
I didn't know whether to put the period inside or outside the end quote, so I left it out. Maybe I could have italicized it.

[Gino]

But you're still an ASSHOLE! I'm guessing you don't have too many friends (careful, almost used the wrong "too" there....whoa, almost used the wrong "there").

Im gonna quit now before ChumpDumper humiliates me because of my bad grammar or because I don't speak Farsi.

[ChumpDumper]

But you're still an ASSHOLE! I'm guessing you don't have too many friends (careful, almost used the wrong "too" there....whoa, almost used the wrong "there").I'm guessing you think everyone acts exactly the same in person as they do online.


Im gonna quit now before ChumpDumper humiliates me because of my bad grammar or because I don't speak Farsi.You left out an apostrophe there.

[Ignignokt]

You mad?

Yes. Yes it does.

I agree that many people are are as ignorant as gtown. That is not an excuse for ignorance however.

I don't know his overall education level, but it's pretty clear that he was ignorant in this particular instance. If you are averse to educating yourself further or want to actively discourage others from educating themselves just because you think everybody is ignorant anyway, that's your business. I tend to think the opposite is more desirable.

I wasn't ignorant of the fact that iran wasn't arab, quit trying to pump up your ego. I never said, Iran is an arab country. But my post could have been construed that way.

So whatever, i think you won the battle against the strawman, go play with your manga comics.

[Ignignokt]

I know my demographics, unlike one of us. You just bandied about your ignorance for the entire board to see, so I would seriously stop attempting to put others in their place.


Sorry bitch, you want to me to define Persians for you so i can assure you over the internet go fuck yourself. I didn't say IRan was arab. So if you're still on that go fuck yourself. I bet you couldn't tell me wether Sudanese are africans or arabs, the fact is there is no right awnser since they consider themselves arabs but live in the continent of africa. I don't have to apologize for your misunderstanding.

[ChumpDumper]

I wasn't ignorant of the fact that iran wasn't arab, quit trying to pump up your ego. I never said, Iran is an arab country. But my post could have been construed that way.

So whatever, i think you won the battle against the strawman, go play with your manga comics.I had to wait a little while for the personal insults since I mentioned them, but I knew you couldn't resist.

Care to comment about the Syria comment? Or are you ignorant about that as well?

[Ignignokt]

I had to wait a little while for the personal insults since I mentioned them, but I knew you couldn't resist.

Care to comment about the Syria comment? Or are you ignorant about that as well?

The GOlan heights of the M.E. are to Israel as The Bulgogi breath Korean Mojo of Chump is to the female population of the world.

They're both buffer zones.

[Ignignokt]

multitasking is fun, i add knowledge and insults.

[ChumpDumper]

The heights are Syrian land occupied by Israel. If Syria is such a military threat to Israel, why couldn't they have taken back their land in forty years?

And you insult because you can't do anything else. You got mad at having your ignorance thrown back at you, so you just started thrashing about like a child.

As always.

[Ignignokt]

The heights are Syrian land occupied by Israel. If Syria is such a military threat to Israel, why couldn't they have taken back their land in forty years?

The logistics of that happening would change if Iran the other NON ARAB COUNTRY that speaks Farsi were to launch a coordinate attack along with the help of russian technology and half of lebanon's southern part.

[Ignignokt]

why did you edit the Golan heights comment and insert Syria? that was odd...

[ChumpDumper]

The logistics of that happening would change if Iran the other NON ARAB COUNTRY that speaks Farsi were to launch a coordinate attack along with the help of russian technology and half of lebanon's southern part.:lol

This is the part where you just start spouting stuff you don't even believe.

Add some more insults and we'll be done.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry bitch, you want to me to define Persians for you so i can assure you over the internet go fuck yourself. I didn't say IRan was arab. So if you're still on that go fuck yourself. I bet you couldn't tell me wether Sudanese are africans or arabs, the fact is there is no right awnser since they consider themselves arabs but live in the continent of africa. I don't have to apologize for your misunderstanding.

You aren't even worth talking to. Seriously. That kind of comeback is pathetic. I'll wait for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to comment and respond to them instead.

[ChumpDumper]

You aren't even worth talking to. Seriously. That kind of comeback is pathetic. I'll wait for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to comment and respond to them instead.Good advice.

[Ignignokt]

:lol

This is the part where you just start spouting stuff you don't even believe.

Add some more insults and we'll be done.

First of all, an attack is not an invasion. Second of all Syria and Iran are already fighting Israel through proxy. Alot could happen, especially with Russia and Iran cooperating now more than ever to have where iran could launch offensives towards israel by Syria allowing them to use thier area.

I know you work in a think tank and all, but acting like an internet jackass know it all hasn't made people think you're a know it all, just a jackass.

[Ignignokt]

You aren't even worth talking to. Seriously. That kind of comeback is pathetic. I'll wait for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to comment and respond to them instead.

:lol I'm sorry, are you the type that thinks you add some value to someone elses life?:lmao Keep it coming.. I bet you're going to tell me that i'm no longer on your buddy list... such a sad shame.:rollin

[ChumpDumper]

This is the part where you just start spouting stuff you don't even believe.
First of all, an attack is not an invasion. Second of all Syria and Iran are already fighting Israel through proxy. Alot could happen, especially with Russia and Iran cooperating now more than ever to have where iran could launch offensives towards israel by Syria allowing them to use thier area.
Add some more insults and we'll be done.

I know you work in a think tank and all, but acting like an internet jackass know it all hasn't made people think you're a know it all, just a jackass.
http://babyhatchetblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/wind-up-doll.jpg

[Ignignokt]

Good advice.

Wow, now the circle jerk has begun.

It's like clockwork.

I offend chump, he finds a boy toy to defend with.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, now the circle jerk has begun.

It's like clockwork.

I offend chump, he finds a boy toy to defend with.You haven't offended me yet.

[Ignignokt]

This is the part where you just start spouting stuff you don't even believe.
Add some more insults and we'll be done.

http://babyhatchetblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/wind-up-doll.jpg

Looks like you're doing your part to keep it civil. blue font for Cry Havoc, he takes the internets <serialy>.


I bet you're such an attention whore, that you need the last word. Prove me wrong.

[Cry Havoc]

Looks like you're doing your part to keep it civil. blue font for Cry Havoc, he takes the internets <serialy>.


I bet you're such an attention whore, that you need the last word. Prove me wrong.

You're not offensive. You're just sad.

[whottt]

I hate to break it to you guys but describing Iran as an Arab country isn't exactly a gross error...a great PCT of their population is now Arab and it's becoming more and more so every year. The real Iranians started getting the fuck out of there around 1979.

Ethnically Iran is probably about 35-45% Arab.

[Ignignokt]

it's not like i said there were 57 states in the union or something.lollololololololoolololololol!

[Extra Stout]

But you're still an ASSHOLE! I'm guessing you don't have too many friends (careful, almost used the wrong "too" there....whoa, almost used the wrong "there").

Im gonna quit now before ChumpDumper humiliates me because of my bad grammar or because I don't speak Farsi.

من کمی فارسی بلدم

[Ignignokt]

So if Iran were to attack Israel with ballistic weapons you think they'd somehow need the United States to fight back? I'm assuming you know very little about the use of ballistic weapons and how ineffective they are as war fighting weapons unless loaded with weapons of mass destruction because there is no other reason you'd propose that US help would be needed in such a situation.

you mean like harmful chemical and biological agents!!! nooooooo!! Not iran, no seriously you awnsered your own objection.

Not only that, israel has already asked the United states to act on its behalf by commiting airstrikes. Israel would also need backing from the US incase it needed to take drastic measures.

But forum monkey liberals are so hard headed.

[greenroom]

UK article on this issues


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/11/johnmccain.barackobama


I think this article resoundly ends three things Ive seen on this board:

1) They're reactions were the same
2) McCain said to go to war with Russia
3) The only way to stop the Russians is with war.

Advantage: McCain.

Your kidding right?? That is the same crap that GW has been saying. Lets go to WAR that is the only way to stop. Hell I am shocked that GW did not move start a War with Russia. He has started Wars for a lot less.

Speaking of GW what the hell did he do.. O wait he was at the Olympics watching Basketball, softball, and swimming. That is what we need from our leader.

IF you vote for McCain its like voting for 4 more years of GW.

[Cry Havoc]

http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/08/12/tomo/story.jpg

[PixelPusher]

من کمی فارسی بلدم

- This post has been flagged by Homeland Security -

[Ignignokt]

http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/08/12/tomo/story.jpg

waiving the white flag this early?

[sabar]

Uh who cares if Iran were to attack Israel? They would get completely decimated along with any country nearby that joined in. The gap in military technology isn't even funny. One squadron of Israel's F-15s or F-16s could shoot down every single plane in the Iranian airforce with 0 casualties if they had enough missiles. Israel's MBTs are so far ahead of Iran's useless Russian T-72s that that would also be lopsided. Israel could steamroll to the outskirts of Tehran like the U.S. steamrolled to the outskirts of Bahgdad.

In addition, Iran's ballistic missiles are outdated, easily shot down by ballistic missile defense, and very unlikely to carry anything other than a conventional warhead. Do not forget that Iran was on the recieving end of Iraq's chemical attacks and they took it quite personally, speaking out against it more than anyone else in the world. Even then they did not use chemical weapons, so I see no reason that would change now. Biological weapons are hardly mass destruction and they have no nuclear weapons.

In conclusion, a candidate that would go to war to defend an ally that doesn't need help would just be dangerous. Also, despite what any candidate says, no one is stupid enough in this age to go to war with Russia or an ally of Russia or a proxy of Russia or anything with Russia. The world does not want a Cold War II and definately has no interest in World War III or nuclear war.

[cool hand]

Support Obama?


His response to this mess has been a joke! This is the guy we want to be the leader of our country?!!! The Russians and Chinese are gonna walk all over us.


This editorial from the New York Suns sums it up better than I can:



....this was all orchestrated and planned by the white hosue and the kremlin.......are you that easily influenced. weak minded bitch.

[Kobe24Forever]

McCain would do shit, it's in the Americans and the worlds best interest to keep ties amicable with Russia, even if losing a pipeline, that's the bottom line. What the Russians did was opportunistic, what the Georgians tried to pull was downright moronic.

[tranquill]

Here the news: http://samsonblinded.org/news/government-israeli-arms-sales-to-georgia-may-irritate-russia-2647 Luck_The_Fakers_Israelis supply weapons to Georgia!

[hater]

Israelis are Laker fans?

[Ignignokt]

In conclusion, a candidate that would go to war to defend an ally that doesn't need help would just be dangerous. Also, despite what any candidate says, no one is stupid enough in this age to go to war with Russia or an ally of Russia or a proxy of Russia or anything with Russia. The world does not want a Cold War II and definately has no interest in World War III or nuclear war.


Israel would have to seek approval from an ally to have it's back in the aftermath. With the way BO morally equivocated, that doesn't lead HOPE to our allies if they need our backing not only militarily but politicaly.

[MannyIsGod]

you mean like harmful chemical and biological agents!!! nooooooo!! Not iran, no seriously you awnsered your own objection.

Not only that, israel has already asked the United states to act on its behalf by commiting airstrikes. Israel would also need backing from the US incase it needed to take drastic measures.

But forum monkey liberals are so hard headed.

You're an idiot and so fucking ignorant on this front that its not even funny.

[MannyIsGod]

Uh who cares if Iran were to attack Israel? They would get completely decimated along with any country nearby that joined in. The gap in military technology isn't even funny. One squadron of Israel's F-15s or F-16s could shoot down every single plane in the Iranian airforce with 0 casualties if they had enough missiles. Israel's MBTs are so far ahead of Iran's useless Russian T-72s that that would also be lopsided. Israel could steamroll to the outskirts of Tehran like the U.S. steamrolled to the outskirts of Bahgdad.

In addition, Iran's ballistic missiles are outdated, easily shot down by ballistic missile defense, and very unlikely to carry anything other than a conventional warhead. Do not forget that Iran was on the recieving end of Iraq's chemical attacks and they took it quite personally, speaking out against it more than anyone else in the world. Even then they did not use chemical weapons, so I see no reason that would change now. Biological weapons are hardly mass destruction and they have no nuclear weapons.

In conclusion, a candidate that would go to war to defend an ally that doesn't need help would just be dangerous. Also, despite what any candidate says, no one is stupid enough in this age to go to war with Russia or an ally of Russia or a proxy of Russia or anything with Russia. The world does not want a Cold War II and definately has no interest in World War III or nuclear war.


Fucking exactly. If Israel was going to get its ass kicked it was going to happen 40 years ago when the technology was somewhat more even and even then they handed the rest of the region its collective ass. Today their armed forces are 2nd only to certain European countries and the United States of course mainly because they are basicaly a microcausum of our own military.

I think its funny that anyone here would think that in the event of a WoMD attack on Israel they would do anything other than a phone call to DC letting the president know that the attacking party was about to glow in the dark for quite some time. They have the weapons and the delivery systems to protect themselves.

[Oh, Gee!!]

n/m

[Cry Havoc]

Fucking exactly. If Israel was going to get its ass kicked it was going to happen 40 years ago when the technology was somewhat more even and even then they handed the rest of the region its collective ass. Today their armed forces are 2nd only to certain European countries and the United States of course mainly because they are basicaly a microcausum of our own military.

I think its funny that anyone here would think that in the event of a WoMD attack on Israel they would do anything other than a phone call to DC letting the president know that the attacking party was about to glow in the dark for quite some time. They have the weapons and the delivery systems to protect themselves.

Nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!

[ThunderStix®]

Support Obama?


His response to this mess has been a joke! This is the guy we want to be the leader of our country?!!! The Russians and Chinese are gonna walk all over us.


This editorial from the New York Suns sums it up better than I can:

Someone from Boston supporting McCain?

It must be hard to live around the complete opposite, I know what it's like, I live in Detroit. :lol

Or are you just an out of state Celtics bandwagoner. ;)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Fucking exactly. If Israel was going to get its ass kicked it was going to happen 40 years ago when the technology was somewhat more even and even then they handed the rest of the region its collective ass. Today their armed forces are 2nd only to certain European countries and the United States of course mainly because they are basicaly a microcausum of our own military.

I think its funny that anyone here would think that in the event of a WoMD attack on Israel they would do anything other than a phone call to DC letting the president know that the attacking party was about to glow in the dark for quite some time. They have the weapons and the delivery systems to protect themselves.

/thread

Maybe you should talk to Tully, apparently he thinks it's not fair the Israelis have nukes and would use them should the SHTF.

Manny, I don't care what anyone says about your ears, you're alright :tu

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Thanks.

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=151953

Yep. These Georgians are just fucking heroes of democracy.

[Buddy Holly]

it's not like i said there were 57 states in the union or something.lollololololololoolololololol!

Or he could have said this:

"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations." -- John McCain on Russia's military action against Georgia, Birmingham, Mich., Aug. 13, 2008

lolololol...?

[Buddy Holly]

Or this:

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."

"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should. I've got Greenspan's book."

"I'm running for president of the United States, because I want to help with family values. And I think that family values are important, when we have two parent -- families that are of parents that are the traditional family." --interview on "This Week," July 27, 2008

[Brutalis]

من کمی فارسی بلدم

I put out designs like that when I pee in snow.

[Extra Stout]

I put out designs like that when I pee in snow.
You make a terrorist piss lump?

[Gino]

Getting back on subject, looks like even Europe is starting to second guess how much they really want Obama as president:


Crisis in Georgia highlights John McCain's strengths
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 15/08/2008

If the world turns anywhere in an international crisis, it is to the one remaining superpower: America. That has been the case with the Russian invasion of Georgia. George W. Bush has expressed his support for what he has called a "beacon of liberty" by sending Condoleezza Rice to Tbilisi and flying in humanitarian aid. But his presidency is drawing to a close.


As much interest has been shown in the reaction of the two men who would succeed him, John McCain and Barack Obama. Here the Republican candidate has scored more strongly, quickly issuing a tough statement that stole a march on both the White House and his Democratic rival.

Given the West's rejection of military engagement on Georgia's behalf, its reaction to this latest incidence of Russian revanchism has been almost entirely rhetorical. Nevertheless, the crisis has played to Mr McCain's strength as a seasoned politician with a hawkish view of Russia.

After all, it was he who looked into Vladimir Putin's eyes and found not a soul mate, as Mr Bush had initially done, but the letters KGB. By contrast, Mr Obama, who, perhaps unfortunately for him, was on holiday at the time, first issued a flaccid statement on the need for restraint, only later making it more pointed.

Georgia has not had a decisive impact on the presidential race. If there is to be any change to the current level-pegging, it will come, rather, from the two parties' conventions and their aftermaths.

But a foreign policy agenda that encompasses Iraq, Iran and the Indian sub-continent, as well as Russian designs on its neighbours, is likely to favour a war hero and long-serving senator over a relative neophyte whose main exposure to the international limelight has been his recent nine-day tour of Afghanistan, the Middle East and Europe.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/08/15/dl1502.xml

[Extra Stout]

It sounds to me like Bush conspired with his buddy Putin on the invasion in order to boost McCain's prospects...

:hat

[Extra Stout]

Dangit, I forgot to log in as Nbadan before I posted that.

[boutons_]

McLiar running on and promising to continue dubya's great achievements as War President? :lol

[Ignignokt]

Uh who cares if Iran were to attack Israel? They would get completely decimated along with any country nearby that joined in. The gap in military technology isn't even funny. One squadron of Israel's F-15s or F-16s could shoot down every single plane in the Iranian airforce with 0 casualties if they had enough missiles. Israel's MBTs are so far ahead of Iran's useless Russian T-72s that that would also be lopsided. Israel could steamroll to the outskirts of Tehran like the U.S. steamrolled to the outskirts of Bahgdad.

In addition, Iran's ballistic missiles are outdated, easily shot down by ballistic missile defense, and very unlikely to carry anything other than a conventional warhead. Do not forget that Iran was on the recieving end of Iraq's chemical attacks and they took it quite personally, speaking out against it more than anyone else in the world. Even then they did not use chemical weapons, so I see no reason that would change now. Biological weapons are hardly mass destruction and they have no nuclear weapons.

In conclusion, a candidate that would go to war to defend an ally that doesn't need help would just be dangerous. Also, despite what any candidate says, no one is stupid enough in this age to go to war with Russia or an ally of Russia or a proxy of Russia or anything with Russia. The world does not want a Cold War II and definately has no interest in World War III or nuclear war.

I'm just wondering, if Israel could really do whatever they want as you say, why haven't they just removed all the palestinians by force or go over to lebanon and dismantle the whole country for allowing hezbollah fighters? If they could do as they please why haven't they just run roughshod over the middle east after decade of every arab country supporting the insurgent Palestinian attacks on Israel.

Are you saying that Israel doesn't need the backing of a superpower to do this?

Yes, i'm quite aware that Israel has american grade technology, that's not the issue.

The issue is quite frankly about political protection after the action of war.

To act as if Israel never asked for backing of the US during the recent lebanese invasion is silly.

To think because Israel has all the millitary hardware that they still don't need the backing of america, is naive and anyone who thinks so hasn't been paying attention.

To believe that in the future with oil revenues and Russian backing that iran wont militarize to shorten the gap with the israelis, is wishful thinking.

The day Iran launches attacks on Israel, the world will ask Israel for restraint or else threaten trade sanctions. Iran knows this, every country in the world knows this.

Iran could if they wanted to launch attacks, not invasions, but attacks through proxy, which they already do. If the proxy organizations were to commit a huge attack on the Israeli homeland, The prime minister would have to get backing from washington to ease the political fallout.

that's why obama's awnser is important.

[Ignignokt]

and if you care, Israel has asked us to remove the iranian nucleaur power plants through airstrikes before.

[RandomGuy]

Support Obama?


His response to this mess has been a joke! This is the guy we want to be the leader of our country?!!! The Russians and Chinese are gonna walk all over us.


This editorial from the New York Suns sums it up better than I can:

Really?

Because that editorial mentioned ONE thing Obama said, and spent the rest of it sucking McCain's dick.

It was more of a propaganda peice pumping up McCain than a reasonable critique of Obama's position.

If that says it better than you can, then you must suck at original thinking.

[RandomGuy]

Obama, McCain On South Ossetia
By Cernig

The Politico's Ben Smith writes that the conflict in the Caucusus presents a true “3 a.m. moment,” and notes the marked differences in Obama and McCain's responses.


While Obama offered a response largely in line with statements issued by democratically elected world leaders, including President Bush, first calling on both sides to negotiate, John McCain took a remarkably—and uniquely—more aggressive stance, siding clearly with Georgia’s pro-Western leaders and placing the blame for the conflict entirely on Russia.

The abrupt crisis in an obscure hotspot had the features of the real foreign policy situations presidents face—not the clean hypotheticals of candidates’ white papers and debating points.

Russia, has long attempted to reclaim now sovereign parts of the former Soviet Union, stoking conflicts in the enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are universally recognized to be Georgian soil. They’ve also used the ensuing military tensions to set back Georgia’s bid to enter NATO.

But Georgia appears to have sparked the conflict by marching on the South Ossetian capital as Russia’s powerful Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, headed to Beijing for the Olympic Games. Russia, in turn, welcomed the conflict, launching a large-scale attack on its smaller neighbor and sending tanks across its border.

Both American candidates back Georgia’s sovereignty and its turn toward the West. But their first statements on the crisis revealed differences of substance and style.

Obama’s statement put him in line with the White House, the European Union, NATO, and a series of European powers, while McCain’s initial statement—which he delivered in Iowa and ran on a blog on his Web site under the title “McCain Statement on Russian Invasion of Georgia,”—put him more closely in line with the moral clarity and American exceptionalism projected by President Bush’s first term.

McCain's campaign says Obama wanting both sides to negotiate is "appeasement" - an interesting charge to level at Bush, Sarkozy, Merkel, Brown et al, who have alll also called for the same thing. But John "Cotton Hill" McCain doesn't care for pantywaist effete elitism - no negotiations for him. He's got a Cold War hate on for Russia, as evidenced by his previous calls to expel Russia from the G-8.

But as McCain backs "freedom loving" little Georgia (and his neocon/lobbyist senior advisor Randy Scheunemann, who until march was working for gGeorgia) and accuses Russia of trampling all over its sovereignty, he's neglecting a couple of major factors. For one, Russia is in South Ossetia with a CIS mandate for peacekeeping. For a second, tiny freedom-loving South Ossetia has voted several times for independence from it's bigger neighbour, which won't let it go.

James Joyner discusses the notion of small-state sovereignty today in relation to South Ossetia and quotes Daniel Larison writing for American Conservative magazine.


To understand the Russian response, imagine how Americans would respond if Serbia launched an attack into Kosovo while our KFOR troops were still there, and then imagine how much stronger the U.S. response would be if, in the course of the attack to retake the province, our troops took casualties because of that attack. These are the unfortunate, ruinous things that happen when state sovereignty is reduced to a meaningless phrase by past interventions and partitions, and the governments that attacked Yugoslavia over its internal affairs and partitioned Kosovo have no authority to find fault with what Russia is doing now.

McCain doesn't want to understand the Russian response. If he was the one taking those 3am phone cals on this conflict, there would be American armed might on its way to Georgia to confront Russia right now and the world would be listening to the ticking clock of holocaust. That's far too dangerous a man to allow into the Oval Office.

[RandomGuy]

One editorial deserves another. ;)

[Buddy Holly]

LOL at Gino expecting people to believe he was an Obama supporter up and until McCain told the children on his front yard to get the hell off of it and tried to chase them off with a walking stick while Obama asked the kids to respect his home and not trespass on it in a kinder tone.

lol

Yeah, that would make anyone switches sides and bash the other to no end.

[Gino]

Wednesday, August 13, 2008

Team Obama Calls McCain's Georgia Stance 'Belligerent,' Yet 'Roughly The Same' As Theirs

Sometimes on Obama's campaign, the left hand...

Obama backer and former UN Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, appearing on CNN: "John [Roberts], with all due respect, I would dispute what you just said. Senator McCain and Senator Obama have roughly the same positions. it's the Bush administration that was behind the curve. "


...doesn't know what the further left hand is doing.

Obama adviser Susan Rice, appearing on MSNBC's "Hardball" Tuesday night, accused McCain of responding irresponsibly. "Barack Obama, the administration and the NATO allies took a measured, reasoned approach," she said. "We were dealing with the facts as we knew them. John McCain shot from the hip, very aggressive, belligerent statement. He may or may not have complicated the situation."

So... Obama's response was the same as the Bush administration's, which was behind the curve.

Does that make it an admission that their own response was behind the curve? Well, later on in that interview, Holbrooke said, "The situation was evolving, Obama's statement, which came immeidately was a place holder statement as the situation moved. He was on the plane, out of touch on his way to Hawaii. As the situation developed, he clarified, moved his position forward."

:lol

[Gino]

This dude won't even stand up to Hillary:


Barack Obama blinks in Hillary face-off
Thursday, August 14th 2008, 8:13 PM


Hong/AP

Hillary Clinton may not get her party's nomination, but her roll call at the convention means she's stealing the show from its presumtive star, Barack Obama (below).

Russia rolls over Georgia, Hillary Clinton does the same to Barack Obama. Now we know who's boss.

Obama blinked and stands guilty of appeasing Clinton by agreeing to a roll call vote for her nomination. That he might not have had much choice if he wanted peace only proves the point that he's playing defense at his own convention.

What does he get out of it? Not much and not for long.

The fleeting sense that he is a magnanimous nominee won't get him a single vote he wouldn't get anyway. Ditto for the idea that he's going the extra mile to unify the party. Those who refuse to accept him as the legitimate winner aren't likely to do so just because he caves into her demands.

It makes him look weak and ratifies Clinton's sense of entitlement to share party leadership and the convention spotlight. The substantive problem for Obama is that he is already underperforming against John McCain. He limped across the finish line in the primaries and, since Clinton conceded in June, his poll numbers have flat-lined.

In the face of that lackluster showing, his choices have been curious. The time spent in Europe and now in Hawaii might have been better spent courting the white, working-class voters who have proved immune to his charms.

Trying to bring them into the tent by agreeing to Clinton's growing demands is a poor substitute for direct appeals. She might not be able to deliver them, even if she tries.

Yet already the list of what Hillary wants and what Hillary gets is unprecedented for somebody who lost the nomination. She gets a prime-time address where she will be introduced by daughter Chelsea. She gets her own team to produce a hagiographic video of her.

Hubby Bubba gets a prime-time speech on Wednesday night. And Hillary gets a platform plank that uses "glass ceiling" language right out of her speech to suggest she would be the nominee if not for sexism.

A few more big-ticket items and she'll be the co-nominee. Maybe that's the point.

It reminds me of a Cold War joke about how the Russians view a compromise. They come to the table and announce the rules: What's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable.

How would President Obama respond?

I think we just found out.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm still voting for Obama. I used to like McCain but his ideas and lack of remembering crucial things has turned me against him. Hell, no I don't want him in the White House.

[JoeChalupa]

This dude won't even stand up to Hillary:

Oh geez. :sleep

[JoeChalupa]

You mean like McCain has stood up again Phil Gramm?

[JoeChalupa]

I love how threads on here always devolve into Manny/monkey insults. Makes my day.

Now that is just wrong. :lol

[Tully365]

/thread

Maybe you should talk to Tully, apparently he thinks it's not fair the Israelis have nukes and would use them should the SHTF.

Manny, I don't care what anyone says about your ears, you're alright :tu

I never said that and you know it. I love debating serious issues honestly, but all you do is misquote statements and add your own twist to them to benefit your argument. My position is that the USA officially denying knowledge of Israel's nuclear capability is disingenuous and it is this dishonesty that makes other countries angry. That's it.

[Buddy Holly]

This dude won't even stand up to Hillary:

Dude, shut the fuck already. It was asinine of you to come in here claiming to have been an Obama supporter when in reality you are a right wing republican masquerading as someone who switched sides with one of the most minute and plain fucking stupid reasons ever. Quit pushing your "Obama sucks" agenda because we're not stupid, we know better than to think Old Fart McElderly would make a good President.

[Ignignokt]

Dude, shut the fuck already. It was asinine of you to come in here claiming to have been an Obama supporter when in reality you are a right wing republican masquerading as someone who switched sides with one of the most minute and plain fucking stupid reasons ever. Quit pushing your "Obama sucks" agenda because we're not stupid, we know better than to think Old Fart McElderly would make a good President.

:lmao, wow you need to get a life.

[Buddy Holly]

:lmao, wow you need to get a life.

Wow, genius.

[JoeChalupa]

Brahahahahaha. :lmao