Its Science versus Religion Part XXXV

[Nbadan]

Al Frisby has spent the better part of his life in rooms filled with rebellious teenagers, but the last years have been particularly trying for the high school biology teacher. He has met parents who want him to teach that God created Eve out of Adam's rib, and then then adjusted the chromosomes to make her a woman, and who insist that Noah invited dinosaurs aboard the ark. And it is getting more difficult to keep such talk out of the classroom.

"Somewhere along the line, the students have been told the theory of evolution is not valid," he said. "In the last few years, I've had students question my teaching about cell classification and genetics, and there have been a number of comments from students saying: 'Didn't God do that'?" In Kansas, the geographical centre of America, the heart of the American heartland, the state-approved answer might soon be Yes. In the coming weeks, state educators will decide on proposed curriculum changes for high school science put forward by subscribers to the notion of "intelligent design", a modern version of creationism. If the religious right has its way, and it is a powerful force in Kansas, high school science teachers could be teaching creationist material by next September, charting an important victory in America's modern-day revolt against evolutionary science.

(snip)

The suggested changes under consideration seem innocuous at first. "A minor addition makes it clear that evolution is a theory and not a fact," says the proposed revision to the 8th grade science standard. However, Jack Krebs, a high school maths teacher on the committee drafting the new standards, argues that the campaign against evolution amounts to a stealth assault on the entire body of scientific thought. "There are two planes where they are attacking. One is evolution, and one is science itself," he said.

"They believe that the naturalistic bias of science is in fact atheistic, and that if we don't change science, we can't believe in God. And so this is really an attack on all of science. Evolution is just the weak link."

more…

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1407422,00.html)

Whoah....dinosaurs on the ark?

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/images/ark/dinoramp.jpg

[Samurai Jane]

Many of the founding fathers of different branches of science were "religious". Religion and science aren't mutually exclusive. I know I'm inviting ridicule here, but I don't believe in Evolution as it is taught now myself and I love science!

[Useruser666]

I wish Dan would evolve.

[exstatic]

I know I'm inviting ridicule here, but I don't believe in Evolution as it is taught now myself and I love science!

SJ - What are your thoughts on evolution?

[Marcus Garvey]

What was here before here was here?

[Sec24Row7]

Don't really see how people don't believe in evolution based on evidence, but if it is against their religion to believe that, then so be it.

None of my bussiness.

[dcole50]

Don't really see how people don't believe in evolution based on evidence, but if it is against their religion to believe that, then so be it.

None of my bussiness.
I feel the same way.

[NeoConIV]

To put it in a few words, I believe in evolution guided by the hand of God. Intelligent design. Can't disprove evolution, can't prove creation, but hard to deny that intelligent design happened. Evolution by default is intelligent design. Randomness, regardless of time, will always beget randomness.

[SPARKY]

What was here before here was here?

[Samurai Jane]

SJ - What are your thoughts on evolution?

In a nutshell, I believe in what has been termed as "micro-evolution", basically adaptation, such as the variations within species and the like, but I don't believe that all chemical elements evolved from one, that all life evolved from a single-celled organism, that life evolved from nothing, etc. I believe that the evidence that supports evolution is full of holes, patchy, and inconclusive. That evidence is subject to interpretation and can support creation as well, given a different set of assumptions.

I only touched on it, but I think that's enough food for thought for now... :spin

[Useruser666]

I personally believe in the BIG BANG Theory! :lol

Just watch Karl Baugh(Sp?). The garbage he spews on TV is ridiculous.


http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-DevilFish.gif MY FAVORITE!!!

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Evolve.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/daremblem.html

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Diablo.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Satan.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-BlowMe.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Sinner.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Sushi.gif

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Dinner.gif

[Spurminator]

I believe that believing in Creation and Evolution are not mutually exclusive, and those who claim so do a disservice to Science and Religion.

[Medvedenko]

It all depends on what Religion you stand for....Christianity is not the be all end all...Creationism is hillarious when you think of it....plus if you look deep within other cultures and idelogies...the world is a very old place indeed.

[Samurai Jane]

I should probably mention that I'm not one of those that advocates taking the teaching of evolution out of schools.

[desflood]

To put it in a few words, I believe in evolution guided by the hand of God. Intelligent design. Can't disprove evolution, can't prove creation, but hard to deny that intelligent design happened. Evolution by default is intelligent design. Randomness, regardless of time, will always beget randomness.
That's what they taught me in Catholic school...

[SPARKY]

So what was here before here was here?

[Shelly]

So what was here before here was here?

There?

[SPARKY]

Well I see that didn't elicit much of a response.

How about: What was here before 'The Big Bang'?

[Useruser666]

Another Big Bang.

[SPARKY]

And before that...?

[Useruser666]

Cue loop --> "Another big bang."

[spurster]

Next time you wonder why the US schools are falling behind a lot of other countries, it is because we are becoming an anti-scientific society. If we don't like evolution or global warming, why, we can solve it by believing otherwise.

[exstatic]

In a nutshell, I believe in what has been termed as "micro-evolution", basically adaptation, such as the variations within species and the like, but I don't believe that all chemical elements evolved from one, that all life evolved from a single-celled organism, that life evolved from nothing, etc. I believe that the evidence that supports evolution is full of holes, patchy, and inconclusive.

If there are only "micro" evolutions, then why are there no 63 million year old dog fossils? Or for that matter, and 63 million year old mammal fossils larger than a small shrew? Only Dinosaurs. Carbon 14 dating can tell you how old fossils are. It's scientificly airtight, unless you posit a world with God as a trickster setting up things to LOOK old. Carbon 14 is a radioactive isotope that breaks down in a known, steady fashion. If you live your life according to clocks, they aren't 1/1000th as acurate as carbon 14.

[scott]

I want to participate in this thread, but I can only do so in about 30 seconds... so here it goes...

1. Why do people have difficulty understanding that a series of micro's amounts to a macro?

2. Why is "evolution by default intelligent design?" What has lead you to believe such a thing?

3. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but creation (as in what Creationists believe) and evolution are.

4. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and reading just about any readily available science journal (or the National Geographic) shows that Scientists are convinced.

5. Creationists often point to the "vast numbers of scientists" who doubt evolution (as a whole). The Creation Science Institute registers these scientists. There are over 300 of them! The number of scientists registers with the National Institute of Science is over 12,000. 300 out of 12,000 = vast?

6. Anyone who seeks to remove evolution from textbooks or present it as "just a theory" does a disserve to the Children of America, who are well below the standards of other industrialized nations. Evolution is indeed "just" a scientific theory... of course scientific theories are half a step away from "facts"- we aren't talking about the kind of theory you come up with to figure out who ate the last slice of cheesecake.

[Spurminator]

3. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but creation (as in what Creationists believe) and evolution are.

Evolution is a continuing process. If one believes in Creation as a starting point, he can also believe that we have evolved since Creation. Furthermore, one can believe that God created the earth with evidence of a past (much like Adam was created as a man and not an embryo)... evidence that can be studied and used to make scientific breakthroughs in the present.

Creationism does not need to be taught in schools, nor does "Intelligent Design" which is basically a philosophical theory. What should be encouraged, however, is the coexistance of religious and scientific theories about the beginning of the earth.

[ididnotnothat]

I think God created evolution.

I also know some who believe in the theory of evolution religiously.

[E20]

If you guys wanna know what was here before The Big Bang then read this:

Galactus (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/g/galactus.htm)

[SPARKY]

What was here before God was here?

Seriously, think about it for a minute. It's a bit troubling when you do so. And a good reason for another drink.

[GoldToe]

God created man to create God.

[exstatic]

Sorry, religious types: this one just made me HOWL. :lol

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif

[xcoriate]

Man created God

[JoeChalupa]

I too believe God created evolution.

[Useruser666]

If you guys wanna know what was here before The Big Bang then read this:

Galactus (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/g/galactus.htm)

So the universe was created by a human can opener?

http://www.marveldirectory.com/pics/picsg/galactus.gif

[Samurai Jane]

Next time you wonder why the US schools are falling behind a lot of other countries, it is because we are becoming an anti-scientific society. If we don't like evolution or global warming, why, we can solve it by believing otherwise.

So your opinion is that if you don't believe in evolution, you must be anti-scientific?

[Samurai Jane]

If there are only "micro" evolutions, then why are there no 63 million year old dog fossils? Or for that matter, and 63 million year old mammal fossils larger than a small shrew? Only Dinosaurs. Carbon 14 dating can tell you how old fossils are. It's scientificly airtight, unless you posit a world with God as a trickster setting up things to LOOK old. Carbon 14 is a radioactive isotope that breaks down in a known, steady fashion. If you live your life according to clocks, they aren't 1/1000th as acurate as carbon 14.

I knew I shouldn't have opened this can of worms when I don't really have time for it.

Let me just start off by saying that Carbon 14 dating is not airtight. First off, it's based on the assumption that the levels of carbon is the same as it has always been. There have been recent advances in Carbon14 dating that are introducing some major anomalies in the geographic time table. I will elaborate more on this later.

[Samurai Jane]

I want to participate in this thread, but I can only do so in about 30 seconds... so here it goes...

1. Why do people have difficulty understanding that a series of micro's amounts to a macro?

2. Why is "evolution by default intelligent design?" What has lead you to believe such a thing?

3. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but creation (as in what Creationists believe) and evolution are.

4. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and reading just about any readily available science journal (or the National Geographic) shows that Scientists are convinced.

5. Creationists often point to the "vast numbers of scientists" who doubt evolution (as a whole). The Creation Science Institute registers these scientists. There are over 300 of them! The number of scientists registers with the National Institute of Science is over 12,000. 300 out of 12,000 = vast?

6. Anyone who seeks to remove evolution from textbooks or present it as "just a theory" does a disserve to the Children of America, who are well below the standards of other industrialized nations. Evolution is indeed "just" a scientific theory... of course scientific theories are half a step away from "facts"- we aren't talking about the kind of theory you come up with to figure out who ate the last slice of cheesecake.

1.) Really? Please cite a specific example.

4.) Yes, since many scientists are convinced, we should just accept it, right? Just like it was just accepted that the world was flat. I myself accepted it until recently when I began to question it and I noted too many holes that aren't easy for me to ignore. I also read science journals, my favorite being Scientific American, and it is clear to me that there is a certain bias against anything even remotely related to Creation. It is often treated as something that only the stupidest people believe in.

I'm late for class now so I gotta jet.. to be continued!

[spurster]

Everything that is "macro" in some way is made up of "micro" parts.

Are there holes in scientific theories? Yes, that's why scientists still have science left to do.

Compared to the holes of evolution, the theory that earth is 6000 or so years old has yawning canyons. Intelligent design is better, I suppose, but lacks a mechanism that produces the intelligence, unless you bring theology into it.

It is hard to believe that random mutation and survival of the fittest could lead to the results we see, but science has become full of hard to believe things, stars and galaxies that are unbelievably big and zillions of miles away, curving space, small particles that aren't really particles, and so on.

[SPARKY]

So what was here before time began?

[Yonivore]

So what was here before time began?
God

[SPARKY]

So where'd God come from?

[Yonivore]

So where'd God come from?
He's always been

[SPARKY]

been what? where?

[Yonivore]

You guys are chasing your tails.

Any scientist worth his weight in atoms will tell you the only way to accurately validate a hypothesis is to observe from outside the components of the experiment. Since is it both theoretically and realistically impossible to observe the universe from outside the universe, no theories about the universe will ever by validated.

They stumbled on this when trying to view subatomic particles. They could record the trajectory of a particle and they could record the position of a particle but, never at the same time and, therefore, they could never tell you from where the particle came or to where it was originally bound. All measurement devices altered the trajectory of the particle and rendered any supposition on it's disposition useless.

Much like this conversation.

[Yonivore]

been what? where?
Just been.

[SPARKY]

Thanks for the non answer.

[SPARKY]

You guys are chasing your tails.

Any scientist worth his weight in atoms will tell you the only way to accurately validate a hypothesis is to observe from outside the components of the experiment. Since is it both theoretically and realistically impossible to observe the universe from outside the universe, no theories about the universe will ever by validated.

They stumbled on this when trying to view subatomic particles. They could record the trajectory of a particle and they could record the position of a particle but, never at the same time and, therefore, they could never tell you from where the particle came or to where it was originally bound. All measurement devices altered the trajectory of the particle and rendered any supposition on it's disposition useless.

Much like this conversation.


Are you a "scientist"?

[Yonivore]

Thanks for the non answer.
It was an answer, I'm sorry you appear to be constrained by three dimensions. To date, physicists have identified anywhere betwee 11 and 20 dimensions...try thinking outside the box every now and again.

[Yonivore]

Are you a "scientist"?
No, but I play one on T.V.

[SPARKY]

It was an answer, I'm sorry you appear to be constrained by three dimensions. To date, physicists have identified anywhere betwee 11 and 20 dimensions...try thinking outside the box every now and again.

I am. Where'd this reality come from? Saying that God's just here doesn't cut it, unless you just want to say it's a matter of faith.

[Useruser666]

BangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBa ngBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBang BangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBa ngBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBang BangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBa ngBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBang BangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBa ngBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangBangRepeat

[MannyIsGod]

No, but I play one on T.V.


:lmao

and on the internet, especially after staying at a Holiday Inn Express.

Anyhow, I believe in evolution, and I think that you can easily fit evolution into non literal christian thinking. And actually, I guess there are ways to fit it into literal thinking as well.

I read a great, but incredibly simple book, called <i>Ishmael</i>. It discussed evolution, but it also discussed how society views things from a very centrist prospective.

Some of the things it touched on were :

1. How bible stories such as Cain and Able could have been folk stories that evolved.

2. How humans perceive themselves as God's grand creation. They are at the top, and they rarely stop to consider that evolution is on going. What will humans be in 1 million years? Assuming we don't blow ourselves up before then.

It's simply a fiction story, but it touches on some weird things. It was an interesting, and quick (took me a few hours at most) read.

[travis2]

I am. Where'd this reality come from? Saying that God's just here doesn't cut it, unless you just want to say it's a matter of faith.

What's your background?

[Yonivore]

I want to participate in this thread, but I can only do so in about 30 seconds... so here it goes...
Oh boy, out of the realm of economics and petroleum politics?

1. Why do people have difficulty understanding that a series of micro's amounts to a macro?
I don't. And, I didn't read this thread from the beginning so, I have no idea what you're on about...sorry.

2. Why is "evolution by default intelligent design?" What has lead you to believe such a thing?
Until there is a answer to the origin of matter -- which there will never be (see previous post about getting outside an experiment), intelligent design is as much a viable theory as anything else on the board; and, in fact, creating something out of nothing would, to me, point to deity since it violates all knows laws of physics and thermodynamics. Therefore, the existence of any matter seems to indicate the existence of God. As they say, "If there is then He is."

3. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but creation (as in what Creationists believe) and evolution are.
Agree. So long as you're referring to the "6,000 year-old earth populated in a flash by God" type of creationism.

But, I do not believe evolution and creation, through intelligent design, are mutually exclusive. As a very specific example, I've long believed the story in the Book of Genesis, where Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then realized they were naked and became ashamed, is a metaphor for when humanity gained consciousness and emotion in it's evolutionary cycle.

Just a theory I have. Feel free to beat up on it...

4. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and reading just about any readily available science journal (or the National Geographic) shows that Scientists are convinced.
And, this Christian believes evolution has been proven.

5. Creationists often point to the "vast numbers of scientists" who doubt evolution (as a whole). The Creation Science Institute registers these scientists. There are over 300 of them! The number of scientists registers with the National Institute of Science is over 12,000. 300 out of 12,000 = vast?
Kind of silly, huh? I don't doubt evolution. But, I don't doubt evolution is a manifestation of intelligent design either. Do you?

6. Anyone who seeks to remove evolution from textbooks or present it as "just a theory" does a disserve to the Children of America, who are well below the standards of other industrialized nations. Evolution is indeed "just" a scientific theory... of course scientific theories are half a step away from "facts"- we aren't talking about the kind of theory you come up with to figure out who ate the last slice of cheesecake.
Agreed. However, I would like to see the various theories on the origins of matter get some treatment in the textbooks...

I know the question on origin is unanswerable but, it could be explained that intelligent design is, at least, one explanation.

[Duff McCartney]

Science>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Religion.

[SPARKY]

Apparently good enough to pontificate on this here internets.

So what was here before this reality was here?

[travis2]

Apparently good enough to pontificate on this here internets.

So what was here before this reality was here?


Thanks for the non answer.

[MannyIsGod]

Apparently good enough to pontificate on this here internets.

So what was here before this reality was here?

Ok, I'm not supporting creationism, but what point are you trying to make?

Scientific theories don't say that there was a pink bunny rabbit hopping around the green meadow of the unverse before the big bang do they?

Hey, try thinking out of a linear box and see if your head doesn't fall off.

[Useruser666]

Bang - repeat

[SPARKY]

Apparently you are incapable of doing what you suggest.

[MannyIsGod]

what?

[SPARKY]

when?

[MannyIsGod]

Apparently you are incapable of doing what you suggest.

Am I? Because I'm the one trying to make a point by refuting beginings? Oh wait, that was YOU.

So what was that point you were trying to make again?

[SPARKY]

Excuse me for thinking outside the box. Resume your normal creationism v evolution boredom.

[Guru of Nothing]

Here's my contribution to this thread:

I DON'T KNOW, nor will I pretend.

[MannyIsGod]

Excuse me for thinking outside the box. Resume your normal creationism v evolution boredom.

Thinking outside the box? Fuck, someone likes to pat themselves on the back more than I do.

Congrats on groundbreaking and theory shattering thinking Sparkmiester.

I asked what point you were trying to make, and you pouted instead of answering.

[SPARKY]

You have an odd way of asking. Perhaps you should try thinking first before engaging your mouth or fingers as the case may be.

[Yonivore]

Bang - repeat
What? No rinse?

[Yonivore]

Here's my contribution to this thread:

I DON'T KNOW, nor will I pretend.
The most intelligent post of this thread...

[MannyIsGod]

You have an odd way of asking. Perhaps you should try thinking first before engaging your mouth or fingers as the case may be.

For someone who complained about not getting an answer earlier, you sure are a nice dancer.

I may have an odd way of asking but you sure have an odd way of answering.

[SPARKY]

You didn't answer my question. Try again.

[travis2]

I don't think you should be demanding answers from people when you won't answer questions yourself.

[MannyIsGod]

heh, ok.

[SPARKY]

I don't think you should be demanding answers from people when you won't answer questions yourself.

How about I demand what I want and you shut the fuck up?

[travis2]

heh, ok.

you're talking to sparky, right?

[Yonivore]

So what was here before this reality was here?
I'm assuming this is the question to which you're referring. (I had to scroll back through some pretty thick nonsense to come up with it.)

Which reality?

And, the only correct answer to your question is ... no one knows nor can anyone know what was here before this was here. Because if it exists or if a trace of its existence is then it wasn't here before, it's here now. Right?

[Useruser666]

Bang - Repeat

[travis2]

How about I demand what I want and you shut the fuck up?
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-015.gif
Funny.

[Yonivore]

How about I demand what I want and you shut the fuck up?
Wow, you're a tempermental prick, aren't you? Did your Ritalin prescription run out?

[Yonivore]

Bang - Repeat
You've said that already. Oh wait, I get it.

[SPARKY]

Wow, you're a tempermental prick, aren't you? Did your Ritalin prescription run out?

Funny, the thought of you referring to anyone else as a "prick."

[SPARKY]

I'm assuming this is the question to which you're referring. (I had to scroll back through some pretty thick nonsense to come up with it.)


Yeah, your posts tend to contain a lot of that.



Which reality?


This one.




And, the only correct answer to your question is ... no one knows nor can anyone know what was here before this was here. Because if it exists or if a trace of its existence is then it wasn't here before, it's here now. Right?

That's a start. Sure beats the old evolution v creationism discussion.

[MannyIsGod]

you're talking to sparky, right?

yes.

[travis2]

yes.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-003.gif

[Yonivore]

That's a start. Sure beats the old evolution v creationism discussion.
It's the same discussion o' intellectually-challenged one.

[SPARKY]

Not really.

Since you are so sure of your intellectual ability why don't you post a copy of your resume (assuming you even have one)?

[Useruser666]

I'm wish this thread would Big Bang.

[Yonivore]

Not really.
Yeah, it is.

Since you are so sure of your intellectual ability why don't you post a copy of your resume (assuming you even have one)?
Because I'm not applying for a job.

What's my resume have to do with a discussion forum? What I post here is one of three things; fact, false, or opinion.

Facts, I support. Falsehoods, I don't knowingly post and will retract or correct when they're discovered. Opinions, also generally supported but, because they're opinions, it might involve some subjectivity.

[SPARKY]

Surely someone who is so able to criticize the intellectual ability of others would be able to provide the forum with a list of his credentials.

[Yonivore]

Surely someone who is so able to criticize the intellectual ability of others would be able to provide the forum with a list of his credentials.
Yep, I would be able.

[SPARKY]

Go for it.

[Yonivore]

Go for it.
That's the funny thing about that whole free will nonsense. I can choose not to and the world will keep rotating on its axis. Of course, you'll keep nattering...but, so what?

I think it's funny you would actually believe haranguing another poster in a forum would ever result in him acquiescing to your demands.

[scott]

I've skimmed past all the idiocy that has now claimed several interesting threads to saw Yoni's response to my post, and I don't see that our viewpoints are in conflict.

As for whoever pointed out the problems with Carbon 14... you are right... it has recently been shown not to be perfect and in some cases "off" as much as tens of thousands of years. Of course, we are talking about hundreds of millions and billions of years, so even 100,000 years isn't a very significant "problem."