What's up with the China hate, Spain?

[samikeyp]

First your basketball team and now the tennis players?

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Another-Spanish-team-discovered-making-eye-slant?urn=oly,100968

[samikeyp]

The basketball team....

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict;_ylt=AgPhTLSvFXvBuyeCgw2v057HKZt4?urn=oly,100 152

[samikeyp]

Hate to say it...but Kidd is right...

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news?slug=aw-nbaspainphoto081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Spain photo exposing NBA double standard?

BEIJING – When Jason Kidd logged into a laptop to see the Spaniards with his own eyes on Wednesday morning, the photo appeared just as described to him: Here were National Basketball Association players giggling like schoolgirls as they posed with fingers pressed against their temples in a squinty-eyed pre-Olympic salute to China.

Before long, Kidd considered the consequences had those giddy European faces been substituted with those of Team USA.

“We would’ve been already thrown out of the Olympics,” he told Yahoo! Sports. “At least, we wouldn’t have been able to come back to the U.S. …There would be suspensions.”

And for his European peers, well, Kidd suggested, “They won’t do anything to them. It’s a double standard.”

For Spain, there are several NBA players, including the Lakers’ Pau Gasol and Toronto’s Jose Calderon, in this unnerving team photo. They wore Spanish uniforms and had the federation’s seal on the floor. It ran as a full-page advertisement in a Madrid newspaper, an advertisement for a national team sponsor. This wasn’t an impromptu shot, but a carefully calculated choice.

Gasol is too smart, too sophisticated, to have let this happen. After practice Wednesday, he suggested that he wasn’t troubled with the photo on the merits of longstanding racial implications as much as he thought it wasn’t funny. The sponsor pushed and pushed them to pose, he said. They broke him down.

“It was supposed to be a picture that inspired the Olympic spirit,” Gasol said.

And how’d that work out, Pau? Just imagine what would’ve happened had that explanation come out of the mouth of Carmelo Anthony? Here’s what: Stern would’ve been on the next plane to China to work the damage control.

The Spaniards made a deplorable circumstance worse with dense justifications and a sense that they had done nothing wrong and nothing offensive. When they were hemming and hawing, digging a deeper ditch, Kidd talked at Team USA’s practice. He was curious how the Spanish players were spinning this.

“They have some explaining to do,” he said. “They’ll come up with something good.”

Gasol and Calderon aren’t just accountable to Spain on this Olympic stage but the global corporate entity that pays them more than $130 million in pro contracts. The NBA could’ve delivered a ready rebuke on Wednesday and there was none.

They’ll dock you $50,000 for ripping an incompetent official, but you can get a pass on an orchestrated racial slur? Gasol is kidding himself to say that he was pushed into it. Do you think Kobe Bryant would’ve been pressured to pose this way? LeBron James? Gasol is a serious, sensitive player with the prestige and clout for Spain to step up and say: Forget it, fellas. This isn’t happening. Only he didn’t.

As much as anything, this episode feeds a prevailing feeling among African-American NBA players that they’re the constant scapegoats for whatever issues – real or perceived – plague the sport. Without the public demanding a pound of accountability for European players, do they get a pass?

“The simple question is, ‘Would NBA commissioner David Stern and the league hold the American players accountable?’ And I think the answer to that is yes,” one NBA general manager said. “So why wouldn’t he hold the ‘other’ NBA players accountable – unless the rules only apply to the American players.”

So far, there’s nothing out of the league office. Rest assured, unless there’s an outcry over that photo, the NBA will wish this story away. Maybe the league will even issue a mild rebuke. It won’t be enough. Maybe this doesn’t rise to a suspension, but there should be significant fines and a bold condemnation. There needs to be a message delivered to NBA players everywhere: When you earn your money with us, you are always on the clock. Kidd, Kobe and LeBron understand it. It’s time the rest of the league does, too.

As some suggest he’ll do, Stern can’t dismiss this as the business of a federation team. These are NBA players returning to NBA cities this year. Never mind the host country and millions of fans here, but consider the Asian-American season ticket holders in cosmopolitan cities such as Toronto and Los Angeles. One of the reasons the New Jersey Nets traded for Yi Jianlian was to market him to a large Asian-American base in Metropolitan New York.

The NBA is a global league, so understand: Whatever the summer uniform, it’s the players who are forever representing the logo. The idea that Stern shouldn’t act on this behavior because it falls under FIBA and Spanish rule is ridiculous.

“We could say that too, but at the end of day, we are still representing the NBA,” Kidd said. “No matter if we’re saying (the actions) have nothing to do with it. At the end of day, we have to go back home, and our jobs are there.”

Stern is walking a slippery slope here, balancing relationships and partnerships in China and Europe. Already, there are jealousies developing in Europe over the way Stern is fawning over the Chinese market. Some European teams have told American marketers and agents that they’ve felt neglected in Stern’s wanderlust for Asia. FIBA is the governing body for European basketball and they’ve already dismissed this as a non-issue. That’s FIBA’s right, but the NBA has a different responsibility here. It has to take the higher ground.

“It would start an international riot if we did it, but they aren’t us,” an Eastern Conference executive said. “It’s low-rent stuff, but FIBA won’t do squat, so (the) NBA would show them up with any punitive action. I would be shocked if the NBA does any more than condemn (the) action.”

These Games have been a fascinating illustration in the complexities of the NBA’s globalization. The Americans have been treated like rock stars in China. Team USA has handled everything with grace and good humor. After too many trips overseas when this wasn’t the case for America’s national team, it sure is now.

Yes, there are different attitudes in the world, different sensibilities in Europe and North America. But for the NBA, there can be just one set of right and wrong. There should be only a strong voice and strong action now. No one should have to call for accountability from the Spaniards – the way that they would for Americans. Once and for all, David Stern has to be clear that there aren’t rules and responsibilities for different athletes, and different backgrounds – just those for an NBA player.

[Short Round]

This is big bullshits! Racist!

[angel_luv]

First your basketball team and now the tennis players?

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Another-Spanish-team-discovered-making-eye-slant?urn=oly,100968

If the Tennis team's picture was after taken after the basketball team one, then they were ignorant to do it, seeing as the first caused so much hoopla.

I didn't think the Spanish basketball picture was that big of deal.
It may have been in poor taste but the media, not the basketball teams, are the ones who caused a real scene with that picture.

[samikeyp]

Angel....rarely do I disagree with you but I have to here. The media didn't force Pau and his buddies to go "Ohh...me Chinese" in that pic.

[monosylab1k]

I don't get how people think this isn't a big deal. Mocking the way an entire race looks?

What if they got dressed up in blackface to poke fun at Team USA?

[johnsmith]

If the Tennis team's picture was after taken after the basketball team one, then they were ignorant to do it, seeing as the first caused so much hoopla.

I didn't think the Spanish basketball picture was that big of deal.
It may have been in poor taste but the media, not the basketball teams, are the ones who caused a real scene with that picture.

I think the bigger deal with it is that how could you be stupid enough to do it in the first place?

Did you think no one was going to care?

[johnsmith]

I don't get how people think this isn't a big deal. Mocking the way an entire race looks?

What if they got dressed up in blackface to poke fun at Team USA?

Or what if the Angolans posed in a picture while pretending to steal something..................you know, to make fun of Team Mexico.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If the Tennis team's picture was after taken after the basketball team one, then they were ignorant to do it, seeing as the first caused so much hoopla.

I didn't think the Spanish basketball picture was that big of deal.
It may have been in poor taste but the media, not the basketball teams, are the ones who caused a real scene with that picture.

Oh, please do explain further.

[angel_luv]

Angel....rarely do I disagree with you but I have to here. The media didn't force Pau and his buddies to go "Ohh...me Chinese" in that pic.

You are correct.

But the media is the one who made the story front page news.

There was no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to that photo.
There were better stories to tell.

Even if the story had shamed Spain's team into apologizing, which it did not,
I still think it was a mistake to promote it.

[samikeyp]

You are correct.

But the media is the one who made the story front page news.

There was no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to that photo.
There were better stories to tell.

Even if the story had shamed Spain's team into apologizing, which it did not,
I still think it was a mistake to promote it.

How should it have been handled?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And the point of it is, there hasn't even been the same amount of hoopla.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news?slug=aw-nbaspainphoto081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Kidd's right. If that had been Team USA, there'd have been fire and brimstone across the world at the "Ugly Americans." There's no way in hell Carmelo or LeBron get away with Pau's quote.

No. Way. In. Hell.

And blaming the media for something your precious Europeans did and continue to do throughout sport (basketball, tennis, soccer, etc.) is a cop out, Angel. But please, do explain further how it's the media's fault.

[monosylab1k]

You are correct.

But the media is the one who made the story front page news.

There was no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to that photo.
There were better stories to tell.

Even if the story had shamed Spain's team into apologizing, which it did not,
I still think it was a mistake to promote it.

I agree that the media does sensationalize things that they ought to not bring attention to, but in this case I don't think the media is doing anything wrong or mishandling it in any way. If anything they should be pushing this harder. The defiant response from the Spanish b-ball team was just incredible to me, they SHOULD feel shame for doing something this stupid and racist.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You are correct.

But the media is the one who made the story front page news.

There was no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to that photo.
There were better stories to tell.

Even if the story had shamed Spain's team into apologizing, which it did not,
I still think it was a mistake to promote it.

IT WAS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT IN A MAJOR SPANISH NEWSPAPER!

[angel_luv]

How should it have been handled?

Talk instead about the success of Chines athletes such as the woman's gymnastic teams.
Don't even acknowledge Spain's prank. They are not the ones who deserve attention- at least not for that.

Praise the hard working; don't pay attention those acting like goofballs.

[angel_luv]

IT WAS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT IN A MAJOR SPANISH NEWSPAPER!

So let Spain have it.

And let Shaq enjoy his stupid Kobe rap.

[timvp]

I had a feeling monosylab1k was Asian. I was leaning more toward Japanese heritage but perhaps he's Chinese.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Angel, I didn't hear you complaining about the media shedding light on this event.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103016

[monosylab1k]

I had a feeling monosylab1k was Asian. I was leaning more toward Japanese heritage but perhaps he's Chinese.

wrong and wrong.

[Extra Stout]

This is pretty much the norm for Europeans.

On a scale of being racial bigots, 0 being Adolf Hitler and 100 being whatever perfect tolerance is, American whites score like a 4. Which looks terrible, except that is the world record high score for white people ever, and not too far off the high score for any people group that has ever existed.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Talk instead about the success of Chines athletes such as the woman's gymnastic teams.
Don't even acknowledge Spain's prank. They are not the ones who deserve attention- at least not for that.

Praise the hard working; don't pay attention those acting like goofballs.

Like you posted about the success of the Chinese athletes.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103018

[timvp]

wong and wong.

[samikeyp]

Sorry but a team mocking an entire race, especially one in who's country they are about to compete is wrong and they deserve all the negative attention they deserve.

[Anti.Hero]

They got some splanning to do!

[angel_luv]

Angel, I didn't hear you complaining about the media shedding light on this event.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103016

You're right. I did not.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Well of course it would be a bigger deal if team USA had done. They come from a country with an imperialist history of discriminating and destroying other cultures. Not like our friends the Spaniards.

[monosylab1k]

I'm Cablinasian

[angel_luv]

Johnny, if you want me to say you are right on all counts, let me just do it now and save you some posting.

[JoeChalupa]

Some people just don't get it. I found it quite childish but it was wrong and I told my kids it was wrong.

[Anti.Hero]

Well of course it would be a bigger deal if team USA had done. They come from a country with an imperialist history of discriminating and destroying other cultures. Not like our friends the Spaniards.


^ being sarcastic :lol

but why do people always mention America's slave history as if it was rare. Almost all countries had this at one point in history.

All these yahoos who fell in love with the Spartans after 300 probably have no idea they only prospered because the slaves kept the gears turning.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Johnny, if you want me to say you are right on all counts, let me just do it now and save you some posting.

Actually, I would just prefer your acknowledgment of your own hypocrisy.

[timvp]

Seriously though, Spain is nothing like the United States when it comes to race relations. I have family that lives in Spain and I used to live there when I was younger and racism is just a part of the culture. The biggest difference is that political correctness doesn't really exist in Spain. Racism is out in the open and is just part of the everyday life that everyone accepts.

Looking at this from a US perspective, it's racist. But comparing it to what you'd see in everyday Spain media and culture as a whole, it doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen. That's why the Spanish players are dumbfounded because this ranks as like a 1.5 in the racism-o-meter in Spain.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Seriously though, Spain is nothing like the United States when it comes to race relations. I have family that lives in Spain and I used to live there when I was younger and racism is just a part of the culture. The biggest difference is that political correctness doesn't really exist in Spain. Racism is out in the open and is just part of the everyday life that everyone accepts.

Looking at this from a US perspective, it's racist. But comparing it to what you'd see in everyday Spain media and culture as a whole, it doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen. That's why the Spanish players are dumbfounded because this ranks as like a 1.5 in the racism-o-meter in Spain.

You think the league is going to do anything more than a slap-on-the-hand to the Spanish players?

[angel_luv]

Actually, I would just prefer your acknowledgment of your own hypocrisy.


You're right.

I shouldn't have joked about the girl named " He" and there were definitely better sports stories than the wrestler one.

But just because I was wrong too doesn't mean the media was right in this instance, does it?

[timvp]

Actually, I would just prefer your acknowledgment of your own hypocrisy.Damn, Blaze vs. Angel_Luv. Who woulda thunk this day would come?

:hungry:

[Kobe24Forever]

You won't catch players like Nadal doing that though, he's a class above the rest.

[JoeChalupa]

I think the media did the right thing.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You're right.

I shouldn't have joked about the girl named " He" and there were definitely better sports stories than the wrestler one.

But just because I was wrong too doesn't mean the media was right in this instance, does it?

So it's OK when the media writes about Swedish wrestlers throwing hissy fits and possible cheating by the host country, just not when the Spanish teams makes slant-eye jokes? OK, just wanted to check... I'll send that around the way.

[timvp]

You think the league is going to do anything more than a slap-on-the-hand to the Spanish players?No. They won't even get a slap on the wrist. If the NBA starts policing racism in foreign countries, that would open a gigantic can of worms.

[samikeyp]

No. They won't even get a slap on the wrist. If the NBA starts policing racism in foreign countries, that would open a gigantic can of worms.

+1

The league is too concerned about being globally popular. They won't do a thing.

[angel_luv]

Damn, Blaze vs. Angel_Luv. Who woulda thunk this day would come?

:hungry:

Nothing to see here. :lol

I surrender. :) :yield

[angel_luv]

So it's OK when the media writes about Swedish wrestlers throwing hissy fits and possible cheating by the host country, just not when the Spanish teams makes slant-eye jokes? OK, just wanted to check... I'll send that around the way.

How did you get that from my admission that I passed along stories written in poor taste, like the Spanish team one?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

No. They won't even get a slap on the wrist. If the NBA starts policing racism in foreign countries, that would open a gigantic can of worms.

Hypothetical: Deron Williams makes a chink joke before the semis. Does the league come down or brush it aside?

[angel_luv]

Oops- I didn't mean to continuing arguing. I retired. :lol

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

How did you get that from my admission that I passed along stories written in poor taste, like the Spanish team one?

Well, you didn't complain about the media "making the story front page news" or "no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to" those stories.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Oh, I see... so all those stories were written in poor taste. I see now.

[Kobe24Forever]

but let me guess, they are doing an ad for vine tasting.

[samikeyp]

Hypothetical: Deron Williams makes a chink joke before the semis. Does the league come down or brush it aside?

It might be in poor taste but the media, not Deron Williams, would be the one causing a real scene with that picture and making it front page news. No good done by increasing the audience who had access to that photo. There are better stories to tell.

;)

[tlongII]

Hypothetical: Deron Williams makes a chink joke before the semis. Does the league come down or brush it aside?

The league would punish him in some manner. DWill is an american though.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

It might be in poor taste but the media, not Deron Williams, would be the one causing a real scene with that picture and making it front page news.

;)

Damn media reporting negative news.

[angel_luv]

Well, you didn't complain about the media "making the story front page news" or "no good done by so increasing the audience who had access to" those stories.

Which was hypocritical- as you correctly pointed out.

I can't take back the posts.

All I know to do is acknowledge my error and post better in the future.

What else would you have me do?

:lol if Spain had done that upfront we likely would not be having this discussion.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The league would punish him in some manner. DWill is an american though.

So the league would be hypocritical. Exactly.

[CuckingFunt]

And the point of it is, there hasn't even been the same amount of hoopla.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news?slug=aw-nbaspainphoto081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Kidd's right. If that had been Team USA, there'd have been fire and brimstone across the world at the "Ugly Americans." There's no way in hell Carmelo or LeBron get away with Pau's quote.

And, quite frankly, it would have been deserved.

[Extra Stout]

you the americans think that are better than us! you that kill and destroy in all the world! you really are the racist!

[samikeyp]

And, quite frankly, it would have been deserved.

Absolutely. As is the flak Team Spain is getting.

[timvp]

Hypothetical: Deron Williams makes a chink joke before the semis. Does the league come down or brush it aside?Obviously the NBA would come down on him. Team USA suspends him -- or maybe just kicks him off the team.

But the reason for that is because that type of racist joke isn't acceptable in US culture. By the time you are in first grade, most kids in the US know that doing that slanty-eyed gesture is wrong.

However, judging racism across cultures is tricky. Just because something is racism here doesn't mean it is considered racism in every society. In the Dominican Republic, for example, if someone has dark skin and is athletic it is a compliment to compare the person to a monkey. But if you call someone black, even if they are of direct African descent, that is considered racist.

So yeah, I'm not saying the Spanish national team is completely innocent but I don't think we can judge what they did accurately because it isn't comparing apples to apples.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Obviously the NBA would come down on him. Team USA suspends him -- or maybe just kicks him off the team.

But the reason for that is because that type of racist joke isn't acceptable in US culture. By the time you are in first grade, most kids in the US know that doing that slanty-eyed gesture is wrong.

However, judging racism across cultures is tricky. Just because something is racism here doesn't mean it is considered racism in every society. In the Dominican Republic, for example, if someone has dark skin and is athletic it is a compliment to compare the person to a monkey. But if you call someone black, even if they are of direct African descent, that is considered racist.

So yeah, I'm not saying the Spanish national team is completely innocent but I don't think we can judge what they did accurately because it isn't comparing apples to apples.

It wouldn't be the first time that the league's been accused of having a double standard, but shouldn't the league worry about the league's reputation? Wojo's right in his hypothetical.

Wouldn't it be in FIBA's interest to do something or is that whole big push to stop racism in European sport just window dressing?

[timvp]

So the league would be hypocritical. Exactly.It's not really hypocritical. It's more like judging what you know. If you open that can of worms, where does it stop? If Beno does a hand gesture that is racist in Slovenia but doesn't mean anything in the United States, should the NBA come down on him?

[timvp]

It wouldn't be the first time that the league's been accused of having a double standard, but shouldn't the league worry about the league's reputation? Wojo's right in his hypothetical.

Wouldn't it be in FIBA's interest to do something or is that whole big push to stop racism in European sport just window dressing?FIBA, maybe. NBA, no.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

It's not really hypocritical. It's more like judging what you know. If you open that can of worms, where does it stop? If Beno does a hand gesture that is racist in Slovenia but doesn't mean anything in the United States, should the NBA come down on him?

I agree it's something that's tough to gauge, especially with something so arbitrary (and I'm not going to pretend to understand a significant amount of European culture), but eventually, the league's going to be taken to task for its failure to act fairly.

Again, though, it's not like the league's well-known for consistently applying its rules.

[Extra Stout]

In 2060, the Al-Andalus Olympic basketball team will look back on this and laugh.

[The sone]

me be chinese,
i play joke,
me put pee pee in your coke...

[Trainwreck2100]

They be lucky if some ninja don't come next time they in chiney restaurant and kill them while they are eating fly lie.

[timvp]

I agree it's something that's tough to gauge, especially with something so arbitrary (and I'm not going to pretend to understand a significant amount of European culture), but eventually, the league's going to be taken to task for its failure to act fairly.

Again, though, it's not like the league's well-known for consistently applying its rules.If the NBA wanted to start policing gestures, this slanty-eyed picture doesn't even compare to something like Vlade Divac's hand gesture (http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=14137). Where was the outrage when Divac did a gesture about 10,000 times in his NBA career?

There wasn't any even though that gesture can be interpreted as being much more offensive than what the Spain basketball team did. Why wasn't there any outrage? Because as Americans, we had no idea WTF Divac was doing.

So unless the NBA wants to hire race relation experts from each country to figure out what is or isn't considered racist in a given culture, it's best to keep that can of worms closed. Police what you know but don't go out searching for racism or other forms of prejudice to crack down on. It won't work.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If the NBA wanted to start policing gestures, this slanty-eyed picture doesn't even compare to something like Vlade Divac's hand gesture (http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=14137). Where was the outrage when Divac did a gesture about 10,000 times in his NBA career?

There wasn't any even though that gesture can be interpreted as being much more offensive than what the Spain basketball team did. Why wasn't there any outrage? Because as Americans, we had no idea WTF Divac was doing.

So unless the NBA wants to hire race relation experts from each country to figure out what is or isn't considered racist in a given culture, it's best to keep that can of worms closed. Police what you know but don't go out searching for racism or other forms of prejudice to crack down on. It won't work.

timvp just gave me Vince Carter's, "It's over!" hand gesture.

[CuckingFunt]

It's not really hypocritical. It's more like judging what you know. If you open that can of worms, where does it stop? If Beno does a hand gesture that is racist in Slovenia but doesn't mean anything in the United States, should the NBA come down on him?

Despite its recent move toward becoming an international organization, the National Basketball Association is still an American league. As such, I think it would be fully within its rights to demand that the players/coaches/etc. respect the boundaries of what is and isn't appropriate within our country and within our culture, regardless what may be acceptable within a player's home country. There may be cultures that encourage verbally attacking the referees during the game, but it isn't tolerated in the NBA under any circumstances.

That being said, I don't know that it's really the NBA's job to enforce its will on an event that occurred during international play. I would hope they make a statement condemning this behavior, clearly stating that it will not be tolerated during league play, and perhaps even chastising the NBA players that were involved, but I would also find it inappropriate to do much more than that.

As far as your Beno hypothetical... not quite the same thing. This situation would be more comparable to an American player going to Slovenia and making an offensive hand gesture, in which case I would think the NBA would be right in making a similar statement.

Ultimately, everyone can claim ignorance and cultural differences, but when you're traveling abroad (especially with the near ambassadorial status of an Olympic athelete) it is your responsibility to familiarize yourself with what is and is not offensive/acceptable within their culture.

[angel_luv]

Ultimately, everyone can claim ignorance and cultural differences, but when you're traveling abroad (especially with the near ambassadorial status of an Olympic athelete) it is your responsibility to familiarize yourself with what is and is not offensive/acceptable within their culture.

That is an excellent and well stated point.

[gatoloco]

the goddamn most over covered thing of insignificance since favre and the dark knight...

[timvp]

Despite its recent move toward becoming an international organization, the National Basketball Association is still an American league. As such, I think it would be fully within its rights to demand that the players/coaches/etc. respect the boundaries of what is and isn't appropriate within our country and within our culture, regardless what may be acceptable within a player's home country. There may be cultures that encourage verbally attacking the referees during the game, but it isn't tolerated in the NBA under any circumstances.Yeah, if the player is playing in the NBA on US soil, they should be forced to live up to US ideals. However, I don't think that should responsibility should necessarily remain outside the NBA and outside the US.

If a player is in their home country, playing for their home team and shooting an advertisement for their home newspaper (which is how the Spain pic came into existence in the first place), I don't think the NBA should have a say in what they can or can't do. Unless it is something obviously offensive that crosses all cultural lines, the NBA shouldn't and can't police what is appropriate in each culture.

For example, if Francisco Garcia went back to the Dominican Republic, put on a monkey suit and made a commercial for a zoo, that would come across as racist by US standards ... but totally acceptable by DR standards.


That being said, I don't know that it's really the NBA's job to enforce its will on an event that occurred during international play. I would hope they make a statement condemning this behavior, clearly stating that it will not be tolerated during league play, and perhaps even chastising the NBA players that were involved, but I would also find it inappropriate to do much more than that. Eh, I think that's FIBA's job. Stern may say something ... but only if an advertiser threatens to pull out. Otherwise, the NBA is in a position that they should just let it blow over.


As far as your Beno hypothetical... not quite the same thing. This situation would be more comparable to an American player going to Slovenia and making an offensive hand gesture, in which case I would think the NBA would be right in making a similar statement.The Spanish team pic was taken in Spain for Spaniard consumption. How is that comparable to an American going to Slovenia and making an offensive hand gesture?


Ultimately, everyone can claim ignorance and cultural differences, but when you're traveling abroad (especially with the near ambassadorial status of an Olympic athelete) it is your responsibility to familiarize yourself with what is and is not offensive/acceptable within their culture.The picture in question wasn't taken when the team was abroad. And apparently the Chinese themselves didn't have much of a problem considering they gave the Spanish team a standing ovation the day after the picture was released.

:smokin

In fact, the people who seem to be most upset by the picture are Americans, as odd as that may be. Other European countries and even Asian countries aren't giving the story near as much run as we see here.

[timvp]

Are we even sure that slanty-eyed gesture is considered racist in China? I have a suspicion that it is more racist in the US than it is in China.

[tlongII]

timvp just gave me Vince Carter's, "It's over!" hand gesture.

:lol

[timvp]

Are we even sure that slanty-eyed gesture is considered racist in China? I have a suspicion that it is more racist in the US than it is in China.


Huang Shiren, a fan at the Spain-Germany game, said at halftime he hadn't heard about the picture. When shown the photo he didn't recognize the gesture.

"Are they looking at something?" Huang asked. :lol

Chinese, more than 90 percent of whom are members of the majority Han ethnic group, tend to be highly sensitive to political slights against their nation, but less attuned to racial and ethnic slurs seen in the West. Huang, a Han who works for the city government, said all seemed well in relations between the two countries.

Not surprising. If a foreigner made that slanty-eyed gesture in China, I'm guessing the average Chinese person wouldn't know WTF they were doing. It may be like if a Chinese person came to America and held their eyes open wide. I'm guessing more Americans wouldn't view that as racist.

This is exactly why you can't police the world based on one culture. Publicly condemning the Spanish national team because that gesture is offensive in America wouldn't make too much sense if the gesture wasn't offensive in China.





P.S.

I may be wrong about where the picture was taken. I've seen it reported both ways and too lazy to search for confirmation.

[CuckingFunt]

Yeah, if the player is playing in the NBA on US soil, they should be forced to live up to US ideals. However, I don't think that should responsibility should necessarily remain outside the NBA and outside the US.

If a player is in their home country, playing for their home team and shooting an advertisement for their home newspaper (which is how the Spain pic came into existence in the first place), I don't think the NBA should have a say in what they can or can't do. Unless it is something obviously offensive that crosses all cultural lines, the NBA shouldn't and can't police what is appropriate in each culture.

For example, if Francisco Garcia went back to the Dominican Republic, put on a monkey suit and made a commercial for a zoo, that would come across as racist by US standards ... but totally acceptable by DR standards.

Eh, I think that's FIBA's job. Stern may say something ... but only if an advertiser threatens to pull out. Otherwise, the NBA is in a position that they should just let it blow over.

Don't think we're terribly far apart on this one, really. I do think that a statement from Stern is warranted, even if for no other reason than to satisfy the American NBA audience, who does (should) see this as an offensive gesture, but I absolutely agree that any type of punishment or suspension for something that happened completely out of the context of the league would be hugely inappropriate.


The Spanish team pic was taken in Spain for Spaniard consumption. How is that comparable to an American going to Slovenia and making an offensive hand gesture?

The claim of ignorance or misunderstanding. If Beno, a Slovenian athlete, went to Slovenia and made a hand gesture that was offensive in Slovenian culture, there's no way to deny he knew exactly what he was doing -- NBA involvement wouldn't be necessary, but I doubt it would blow over without comment from anyone. If an American athlete made the same gesture, without knowing it was offensive (as is the Spanish claim), I think that an apology would be appropriate. If that athlete was acting as a representative of the NBA (which, lets face it, is what the Olympic team has become ever since they started using pros), I also think that a statement from Stern would be appropriate.


The picture in question wasn't taken when the team was abroad. And apparently the Chinese themselves didn't have much of a problem considering they gave the Spanish team a standing ovation the day after the picture was released.

:smokin

In fact, the people who seem to be most upset by the picture are Americans, as odd as that may be. Other European countries and even Asian countries aren't giving the story near as much run as we see here.

Perhaps we, collectively, are overreacting. Perhaps we, collectively, have become so obssesed with political correctness that we don't know whether or not an incident is truly deserving of our ire. Perhaps we, collectively, need to stop forcing our values on the rest of the world. And, perhaps other cultures could stand to gain a little political correctness of their own. Who knows?

Whatever the reason, the American people are upset by this. Which is why I think a statement from Stern to make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that the league does not endorse such behavior from any of its players, regardless their country of origin, would be a smart move. Not policing, not official league actions, not suspensions, just a statement.

[Spurminator]

I think this whole thing would be completely doused if the Chinese team simply took a picture making straighty-eye gestures.

[Spurminator]

Whatever the reason, the American people are upset by this. Which is why I think a statement from Stern to make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that the league does not endorse such behavior from any of its players, regardless their country of origin, would be a smart move. Not policing, not official league actions, not suspensions, just a statement.

Are the American people upset because they truly find it offensive or because of the double standard?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I can't say I disagree with many of Funt or timvp's points. I just think it'd be another double standard for the league.

[CuckingFunt]

Are the American people upset because they truly find it offensive or because of the double standard?

I imagine that depends on the person, but a statement would likely satisfy both issues.

[slayermin]

Are we even sure that slanty-eyed gesture is considered racist in China? I have a suspicion that it is more racist in the US than it is in China.

It's different when an ethnic group is a majority. In the US, asians are a minority so it is different, imo.

As for the picture, I was shocked when I first saw it. But as I read into the back story, I'm not sure if it's a big deal. It sounds like the spanish team had a chinese sponsor, re-signed with said sponsor, and in a clownish way, tried to show appreciation through a joke. It won't stop me from visiting Ibiza one day.

It's like the posters here that photoshop JohnnyBlaze into asian caricature because of his "slanty" eyes, but he isn't asian at all. If you didn't know any better, you would think they are mocking his race. But it's an inside joke, I assume.

I kid my ethnic friends about their race all the time. But it's different amongst friends because there is a bond and trust there. If someone I didn't know ran up to me and made a "slanty" eyed gesture, I'm not so sure I wouldn't react to it. It would probably depend on the mood I'm in.

[E20]

I just have to say it after watching Jackie Chan's SNL episode.

Anicient Chinese Secret....................lol

[FromWayDowntown]

Don't think we're terribly far apart on this one, really. I do think that a statement from Stern is warranted, even if for no other reason than to satisfy the American NBA audience, who does (should) see this as an offensive gesture, but I absolutely agree that any type of punishment or suspension for something that happened completely out of the context of the league would be hugely inappropriate.

I'm not sure it's quite as easy as that last statement might make it seem. Suppose for a second that instead of a gesture that might be rhetorically ambiguous, we were talking about something much more overt. Suppose that there was a star-level NBA player who hails from another country in which slavery of one racial or ethnic group was legally permissible - let's say blacks for the sake of making this all the more inflammatory. And suppose that during an offseason, such a player was reported to have purchased hundreds of black slaves, housing them in deplorable (yet legal) conditions while being an outspoken advocate for the notion that such people are inherently inferior -- a notion deeply-held in his nation. Would it still be beyond the purview of the league to punish that player (or to dissociate itself from such a star) for those actions? Would that be out of the context of the league?

I'll grant that my hypothetical is qualitatively different than the situation at hand, but if there is to be line drawing, I wonder where those lines should be drawn -- particularly when we admit that the identity of the speaker seems to define whether his gesture will net punishment from the association by which he is primarily employed.

I also think the Spanish claims of innocence here ring hollow, notwithstanding the racial dynamics in Spanish culture, because the organizing bodies of international sport have taken public stances decrying racism and actions that bespeak racism, regardless of the cultural norms. I can't speak to how successful those efforts have actually been -- though I seem to recall FIFA imposing penalties for racial taunts (I might be wrong about that) -- but the attention to matters of racism are at least getting lip service on the European continent. It's not as if Spanish athletes are unaware of the international concerns for racism (whether this is that or not is a different question), even if those concerns are non-existent within the borders of their homeland.

[MannyIsGod]

Ashbeigh was just trying to help the Spanish photog imo.

[SpursWoman]

So, on the next page was there an ad with them all pee-pee'ing in a bottle of Coke?

[1Parker1]

I don't get how people think this isn't a big deal. Mocking the way an entire race looks?


True....Michael Jackson technically mocks TWO different races everytime he walks out in public. :lol

[1Parker1]

Actually now that I think about it, just this past postseason, wasn't there an incident with Paul Pierce and whether or not he made some sort of gang gesture to another player during a game? And I believe the league investigated but decided not to do anything....

[JoeChalupa]

I just have to say it after watching Jackie Chan's SNL episode.

Anicient Chinese Secret....................lol


I remember that commericial.

http://www.retroland.com/retrotalk/userfiles/calgon.jpg

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Actually now that I think about it, just this past postseason, wasn't there an incident with Paul Pierce and whether or not he made some sort of gang gesture to another player during a game? And I believe the league investigated but decided not to do anything....

"Menacing gestures..."

[CuckingFunt]

I'm not sure it's quite as easy as that last statement might make it seem. Suppose for a second that instead of a gesture that might be rhetorically ambiguous, we were talking about something much more overt. Suppose that there was a star-level NBA player who hails from another country in which slavery of one racial or ethnic group was legally permissible - let's say blacks for the sake of making this all the more inflammatory. And suppose that during an offseason, such a player was reported to have purchased hundreds of black slaves, housing them in deplorable (yet legal) conditions while being an outspoken advocate for the notion that such people are inherently inferior -- a notion deeply-held in his nation. Would it still be beyond the purview of the league to punish that player (or to dissociate itself from such a star) for those actions? Would that be out of the context of the league?

I'll grant that my hypothetical is qualitatively different than the situation at hand, but if there is to be line drawing, I wonder where those lines should be drawn -- particularly when we admit that the identity of the speaker seems to define whether his gesture will net punishment from the association by which he is primarily employed.

Of course there would need to be a line drawn. But, I'd certainly like to think that the boundary between offensive gesture and potential human rights violation is marked with a pretty thick line.


I also think the Spanish claims of innocence here ring hollow, notwithstanding the racial dynamics in Spanish culture, because the organizing bodies of international sport have taken public stances decrying racism and actions that bespeak racism, regardless of the cultural norms. I can't speak to how successful those efforts have actually been -- though I seem to recall FIFA imposing penalties for racial taunts (I might be wrong about that) -- but the attention to matters of racism are at least getting lip service on the European continent. It's not as if Spanish athletes are unaware of the international concerns for racism (whether this is that or not is a different question), even if those concerns are non-existent within the borders of their homeland.

Completely agree.

[Bigzax]

seriously...we are all racist...we just have the privacy of our own homes to hide behind...


what did the spanish team do to actually hold any chinese down and prevent them from achieving what they need to...not a god damn thing...

move on...

this isn't roots...

[alamo50]

Angel ain't single anymore, so let's stop being sweet to her!

:ihit

[johngateswhiteley]

what did the spanish team do to actually hold any chinese down and prevent them from achieving what they need to...not a god damn thing...

move on...

this isn't roots...

yep. much ado about nothing.

[Extra Stout]

Stuff White People Like #101: Being Offended (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/)

To be offended is usually a rather unpleasant experience, one that can expose a person to intolerance, cultural misunderstandings, and even evoke the scars of the past. This is such an unpleasant experience that many people develop a thick skin and try to only be offended in the most egregious and awful situations. In many circumstances, they can allow smaller offenses to slip by as fighting them is a waste of time and energy. But white people, blessed with both time and energy, are not these kind of people. In fact there are few things white people love more than being offended.

Naturally, white people do not get offended by statements directed at white people. In fact, they don’t even have a problem making offensive statements about other white people (ask a white person about “flyover states”). As a rule, white people strongly prefer to get offended on behalf of other people.

It is also valuable to know that white people spend a significant portion of their time preparing for the moment when they will be offended. They read magazines, books, and watch documentaries all in hopes that one day they will encounter a person who will say something offensive. When this happens, they can leap into action with quotes, statistics, and historical examples. Once they have finished lecturing another white person about how it’s wrong to use the term “black” instead of “African-American,” they can sit back and relax in the knowledge that they have made a difference.

White people also get excited at the opportunity to be offended at things that are sexist and/or homophobic. Both cases offering ample opportunities for lectures, complaints, graduate classes, lengthy discussions and workshops. All of which do an excellent job of raising awareness among white people who hope to change their status from “not racist” to “super not racist.”

Another thing worth noting is that the threshold for being offended is a very important tool for judging and ranking white people. Missing an opportunity to be outraged is like missing a reference to Derrida-it’s social death.

If you ever need to make a white person feel indebted to you, wait for them to mention a book, film, or television show that features a character who is the same race as you, then say “the representation of <insert race> was offensive and if you can’t see that, well, you need to do some soul searching.” After they return from their hastily booked trip to land of your ancestors, they will be desperate to make it up to you. At this point, it is acceptable to ask them to help you paint your house.

[blizz]

Angel is a fucking moron.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

This is the original article that sparked this whole issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/10/olympics2008.olympicsbasketball

And then it went global.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/aug/16/olympicsandthemedia.spain

Spaniards filled Sid Lowe's (The Guardian's Spain based journalist who first reported the picture) mailbox with hate. He went on to defend himself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/aug/15/olympicsandthemedia.pressandpublishing

And for those of you who understand Spanish, here's how some Spanish basketball fans reacted. Disclaimer: It may get ugly.

http://foros.acb.com/viewtopic.php?t=316666

[TheTruth]

Hypothetical: Deron Williams makes a chink joke before the semis. Does the league come down or brush it aside?

Did Shaq get suspended or fined when he mocked the way Chinese people talk? I can't remember and don't feel like googling it.

[ShoogarBear]

Good thing Pau doesn't play in a city with a large Asian population or anything.

[ShoogarBear]

I have family that lives in Spain and I used to live there when I was younger

Wouldn't it be shorter just to list countries where you don't have relatives?

Antarctica and . . . ?

[TDMVPDPOY]

wouldnt matter anyway since we need those wide screen lcds...