Texas School District to Let Teachers Bring Guns to School

[Nbadan]

If your so scared to go to work that you have to bring a gun to school then maybe you shouldn't be a schoolteacher......but that's too much common sense for Texas...parents should be outraged..


HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Texas school district will let teachers bring guns to class this fall, the district's superintendent said on Friday, in what experts said appeared to be a first in the United States.

The board of the small rural Harrold Independent School District unanimously approved the plan and parents have not objected, said the district's superintendent, David Thweatt.

School experts backed Thweatt's claim that Harrold, a system of about 110 students 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, may be the first to let teachers bring guns to the classroom.

Thweatt said it is a matter of safety.

"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said. "It's just common sense."

Teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials, he said.

Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms.

The U.S. Congress once barred guns at schools nationwide, but the U.S. Supreme Court struck the law down, although state and local communities could adopt their own laws. Texas bars guns at schools without the school's permission.

Yahooooooo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080815/ts_nm/texas_guns_dc_2)

[braeden0613]

They still have to get the certified license to carry the gun. I doubt many will actually do it and the law will fall into obscurity just as the assault-weapons ban expiration did.

[Trainwreck2100]

If your so scared to go to work that you have to bring a gun to school then maybe you shouldn't be a schoolteacher......but that's too much common sense for Texas...parents should be outraged..



Yahooooooo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080815/ts_nm/texas_guns_dc_2)

Its the parents fault that teachers need guns to begin with

[boutons_]

A town 150 miles n/w of Fort Worth with only a 110 students has a problem with school gun violence or terrorist students that justifies the teachers packing heat?

[shelshor]

They gotta do something to protect themselves from rattlesnakes

[MannyIsGod]

I think this is awesome.

[JoeChalupa]

No Gun Left Behind is a great strategery.

[DarkReign]

I think this is awesome.

In what way?

[dg7md]

Better not act out in class now.

[Shaolin-Style]

I'm glad I'm becoming a teacher now.

Lock'n'load'n'teach

When kids are misbehaving I'll just reach into my desk, pull out my glock, point it at them, and tell them to shut the fuck up.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I hate guns, guns are evil and should be banned that way only bad people will have them

If this law change prevents one Columbine, it's done its job.

This is as much about them setting a trend and a message as it is actually having to deal with a threat.

[MannyIsGod]

In what way?

People being protected by licensed and trained gun owners is always a good thing. Its easy to say that it can't happen there but I'm pretty sure thats what is always said.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

People being protected by licensed and trained gun owners is always a good thing. Its easy to say that it can't happen there but I'm pretty sure thats what is always said.

Good take :tu

People act like this law will have every teacher showing up packing an assault rifle.

They would have to go through everything one does to get a CHL, and then some (CHL... 8 hour class, shooting proficiency exam, federal background check).

[longcall911]

This is very similar to the issue of whether airline pilots should be allowed to carry a weapon. As others have pointed out, those with the weapons will need to be trained, and certified to handle the weapon and they will need to go through crisis training.

In these days where a shooter can kill dozens of people in under 30 seconds, having one or more trained professionals on the scene could save many, many lives.

I don't think it is an easy issue to decide, but I'd be for arming the teachers. I would probably want them to receive some sort of police training and to be listed with the police department. After all, you are sort of deputizing these people.

I would also want to see limitations, like no automatic weapons, one primary and one back up weapon only, and a limit on the type and quantity of ammo.

/*tom*/

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I would also want to see limitations, like no automatic weapons, one primary and one back up weapon only, and a limit on the type and quantity of ammo.

Part of the law for having a CHL is the weapon must be concealable, which is going to address a lot of your concerns. The only weapons allowed would be those deemed legal by the government.

As to limit of quantity of ammo, I'm sorry but that's a little shortsighted. People should be allowed to carry as much as they can comfortably and concealed. Saying 'well, you can carry but only one 10 round clip' is pointless.

Most people aren't good enough shots to drop a bad guy in one shot, hell, the stats for law enforcement are that they only hit the target with their first shot 43% of the time, to bring something like that to the equation.

Plus, what if there's multiple bad guys, or it takes you 4-5 shots to figure out they have on body armor?

The CHL course goes a long way to sorting out those who should and shouldn't have a firearm, and it appears from the article that they would have to receive crisis training (this would likely be with law enforcement) and permission from school officials (to me, the people they work with would know if they are stable enough to have a gun or not).

[boutons_]

why not have armed guard(s) on premises? Another niche for Blackwater mercenaries.

Let the teachers be only teachers who win respect by their teaching and personal characteristics.

Avoid the kids asking themselves whether the teacher is packing heat or fearing the teacher as a shooter.

[johnsmith]

why not have armed guard(s) on premises? Another niche for Blackwater mercenaries.




Hooray higher taxes!!!!!!!!!!!


Dude, can you just admit finally that you are a card carrying member of the Democratic Party?


Oh wait, you're too much of a coward to take me off ignore........my bad.

[ElNono]

All Texans know that not a single registered gun owner has psychological problems, and there's absolutely no possibility of any of these teachers going wonka and unloading a clip on their students.
Think about it, the worse that can happen is a dozen dead kids, then the ordinance will be lifted... no big deal

:tu

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

All Texans know that not a single registered gun owner has psychological problems, and there's absolutely no possibility of any of these teachers going wonka and unloading a clip on their students.
Think about it, the worse that can happen is a dozen dead kids, then the ordinance will be lifted... no big deal

:tu

I hate this argument. If a teacher wants to go shoot up their school, do you think they're going to go pay $130 or so for the CHL class, go sit in a classroom for 10 hours of CHL instruction, fill out about 7 different forms, get finger printed, pay another $150 to the state of Texas for the application, sit around for 4 months to wait on processing and an FBI background check, go through whatever crisis training it is being talked about in the article, all so they can pop a few rounds off in the school because they had a bad day?

If a teacher wants to go shoot up their school, they're going to do it, this isn't an avenue for them somehow circumventing the law.


Let the teachers be only teachers who win respect by their teaching and personal characteristics.

Avoid the kids asking themselves whether the teacher is packing heat or fearing the teacher as a shooter.

You're a dumbass. It's not about winning the respect of their students, it's about the fact if another Columbine happening, someone being able to do something about it before the school is full of dead kids.

[boutons_]

how many schools and colleges have been shot up in how many total schools and colleges in USA.

driving to school is a much bigger risk than the risk of getting shot in school.

So, dickless twerp, arm ALL the teachers with handguns and personal armor. Nice fucking country you want.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

how many schools and colleges have been shot up in how many total schools and colleges in USA.

driving to school is a much bigger risk than the risk of getting shot in school.

So, dickless twerp, arm ALL the teachers with handguns and personal armor. Nice fucking country you want.

There have been more school shooting incidents committed (and that's not even touching the death count) than total murders committed by CHL holders in the state of Texas since the CHL law was passed. So stick that in your candy ass pipe and smoke it.

Where did I ever say arm every teacher? I said the ones who choose to go through the CHL training, background check, additional crisis training from local law enforcement, and have administrative signoff should be allowed to do so.

Love the petty insult though, typical pussy ass shit from you. Mixed in with a dose of not having a fucking clue about the facts.

[MannyIsGod]

All Texans know that not a single registered gun owner has psychological problems, and there's absolutely no possibility of any of these teachers going wonka and unloading a clip on their students.
Think about it, the worse that can happen is a dozen dead kids, then the ordinance will be lifted... no big deal

:tu

AHF just owned your dumb ass arguement.

[smeagol]

Civilized society stepping forward . . .

Hurray!

[MannyIsGod]

Civilized society stepping forward . . .

Hurray!

Thanks for your quality addition to this thread.

[Nbadan]

Wouldn't it be more likely that these gun-toting liberals (I mean, after all, they are teachers - probably members of the TEA too) get their guns taken away from them by a Republican student in a struggle? Do you want guns going off in the hallways of the schools where your kid is attending?

[Spurminator]

Zuh?

[Hook Dem]

People being protected by licensed and trained gun owners is always a good thing. Its easy to say that it can't happen there but I'm pretty sure thats what is always said.

Agree with Manny!

[cool hand]

its about time.

[Anti.Hero]

lol at some of the fools in here spewing the same ol' tired garbage about how evil guns are.


I'll take the armed teacher who is enthusiastic about guns, protection, etc...over the 300 lb rent-a-cop at school.

[Kermit]

What's the over/under on how long it takes for a teacher to whip out his gun to scare the shit out of two students who are about to fight once this phenomenon happens?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

how many schools and colleges have been shot up in how many total schools and colleges in USA.


More shootings than individual murders total by all Texas CHL holders. Try reading.



driving to school is a much bigger risk than the risk of getting shot in school.


Do you wear a seat belt when you drive? It can save your life. So can carrying concealed.



So, dickless twerp, arm ALL the teachers with handguns and personal armor. Nice fucking country you want.

So dickless twerp, try fucking reading sometime.

* It's not every teacher, just ones who go through a fairly rigorous screening process.

* Where does it say anything about body armor? Quit making shit up, you sound even dumber than you already are.

* I'd love for my country to live in peace, but seeings sick fucks decide they need to prey on defenseless folks because someone called them a nerd or their parents did a shitty job raising them, people deserve the right to defend themselves and not be target practice.

* I really hope someone never breaks into your home, because guess what - the cops aren't going to get there in time. They don't get to school shootings in time either.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Wouldn't it be more likely that these gun-toting liberals (I mean, after all, they are teachers - probably members of the TEA too) get their guns taken away from them by a Republican student in a struggle? Do you want guns going off in the hallways of the schools where your kid is attending?

:lol

1. It's concealed carry. If someone is concealing properly, you're never going to know they are carrying until shit goes down.

2. Um, yeah. A struggle? The only time a gun should come out from a CHL holder is if there is imminent threat of death or bodily injury to an individual or individuals. In short, if someone's got a gun or knife out or you've got like a 300 pound man beating the shit out of a 100 pound woman or something like that.

3. Seeings you have no fucking clue about the responsibilities of a CHL holder, Texas law pretty much says if you pull a gun it better be to shoot someone in defense of your life or someone else's. If you just pull it as an intimidation factor, your ass is getting slapped with a felony and sent to jail.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's the over/under on how long it takes for a teacher to whip out his gun to scare the shit out of two students who are about to fight once this phenomenon happens?

It's a felony to brandish your weapon in such a manner, so I'll take the over from whatever liberal anti-gun dumbfuck wants to lay odds.

[Kermit]

It's a felony to brandish your weapon in such a manner, so I'll take the over from whatever liberal anti-gun dumbfuck wants to lay odds.

Felony or not, you know it's going to happen. It's a felony to whip you dick out in front of children who are on the toy aisle in Walmart but Boutons does it anyway. And just so we don't get into a flame war, I'm in support of this. It's a good idea, but some asshole is going to ruin it for everybody. It always happens.

[MannyIsGod]

Felony or not, you know it's going to happen. It's a felony to whip you dick out in front of children who are on the toy aisle in Walmart but Boutons does it anyway. And just so we don't get into a flame war, I'm in support of this. It's a good idea, but some asshole is going to ruin it for everybody. It always happens.

No, it doesn't always happen actually. Instead of spouting anecdotal crap why not try providing some evidence - such as how many CHL holders have been charged with brandishing a weapon irresponsibly - to back up what you're saying.

[Kermit]

No, it doesn't always happen actually. Instead of spouting anecdotal crap why not try providing some evidence - such as how many CHL holders have been charged with brandishing a weapon irresponsibly - to back up what you're saying.


Monkey, conjecture was the point of my post. But I'm sure the statement that CHL holders never brandish their weapon irresponsibly is infallible.

[clambake]

so, what is a teachers weapon of choice?

sig? glock? HK?

[ElNono]

I hate this argument. If a teacher wants to go shoot up their school, do you think they're going to go pay $130 or so for the CHL class, go sit in a classroom for 10 hours of CHL instruction, fill out about 7 different forms, get finger printed, pay another $150 to the state of Texas for the application, sit around for 4 months to wait on processing and an FBI background check, go through whatever crisis training it is being talked about in the article, all so they can pop a few rounds off in the school because they had a bad day?

If a teacher wants to go shoot up their school, they're going to do it, this isn't an avenue for them somehow circumventing the law.


I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines that a teacher gets into a divorce/separation/depression/alcohol/drug abuse at some point, and unloads on the kids. You know, shit like that happens all the time. How many times you heard neighbors of some dude that just went to work and massacred 20 co-workers before blowing his head off saying 'He was a really nice guy. I'm shocked he could do such a thing'.


You're a dumbass. It's not about winning the respect of their students, it's about the fact if another Columbine happening, someone being able to do something about it before the school is full of dead kids.

LOL, I never said it was about winning anybody's respect. But hey, time will tell how well this shit works. I tell you though, I would be very surprised if something like this is implemented anywhere outside of Texas...

[MannyIsGod]

Monkey, conjecture was the point of my post. But I'm sure the statement that CHL holders never brandish their weapon irresponsibly is infallible.

Well your point has merit if you can find where I said as much. Reading comprehension isn't too much to ask, is it? Good luck on that search.

However if you can find any proof that CHL holders are more likely to use weapons irresponsibly I'd love to see it. Once again, good luck on that search.

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines that a teacher gets into a divorce/separation/depression/alcohol/drug abuse at some point, and unloads on the kids. You know, shit like that happens all the time. How many times you heard neighbors of some dude that just went to work and massacred 20 co-workers before blowing his head off saying 'He was a really nice guy. I'm shocked he could do such a thing'.


Whats to stop a non CHL holder from doing that? Better yet, how many CHL holders have done this?

[MannyIsGod]

Here's what I found in a quick search. Out of 1.3 Million permits issued in 20 years for Florida, all of 165 have been revoked for using the weapon improperly. I guarantee the general populations rate of crimes involving a firearm are MUCH higher than that microscopic percentage.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

[ElNono]

Whats to stop a non CHL holder from doing that? Better yet, how many CHL holders have done this?

Metal detectors? They've been installed in almost every school here... along with a security guard. Then again, this is New Jersey... so it's kind of expected.

[MannyIsGod]

Metal detectors? They've been installed in almost every school here... along with a security guard. Then again, this is New Jersey... so it's kind of expected.

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware that guns weren't usable outside of schools.

[ElNono]

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware that guns weren't usable outside of schools.

The OP article is about security inside the school:
"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said.

There some trained dudes outside the school called Police officers that handle matters outside campus.

[Nbadan]

Out of 1.3 Million permits issued in 20 years for Florida, all of 165 have been revoked for using the weapon improperly.

Do you want your kid to be the one that is on the losing end of those odds? I know most parents don't and I know that all it will take is one bad incident to happen and the district will be out millions of dollars...

[MannyIsGod]

The OP article is about security inside the school:
"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said.

There some trained dudes outside the school called Police officers that handle matters outside campus.


Actually I think it is about security on school campuses which are made up of both outside and inside areas. The point is that a person without a CHL that wants to kill children at a school is able to do so even if the school has metal detectors because they can simply use the gun at the school OUTSIDE of the area protected by metal detectors.

There is simlpy no way you can argue that a CHL makes something like this more likely to occur. The stats point to the opposite.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you want your kid to be the one that is on the losing end of those odds? I know most parents don't and I know that all it will take is one bad incident to happen and the district will be out millions of dollars...

Liability for the district will obviously be higher in this situation, but so will the safety. Being at the end of that situation is obviously not a pleasant feeling but knowing that those situations are LESS likely to occur in this type of environment IS.

[baseline bum]

As long as the teacher is
- 1) trained and competent in the use of the weapon he packs
- 2) passes a thorough background check
- 3) obtains a concealed handgun permit from the state
- 4) keeps the weapon on his body at all times (so some jerkoff student can't go rip it off easily)

Then, I fully support him being allowed to protect himself and his students. Of course, this is assuming each state gives us our Second Amendment right, which sadly isn't the case.

[baseline bum]

This logic about the teacher going nuts is pretty stupid too. By that argument, we shouldn't have any police in a school neither. What's to stop a cop from committing mass murder at the school if he's going through a nasty divorce or gambled his money away and wants to end it all?

[Nbadan]

Liability for the district will obviously be higher in this situation, but so will the safety. Being at the end of that situation is obviously not a pleasant feeling but knowing that those situations are LESS likely to occur in this type of environment IS.

Weighing the chances that a school shooting will occur on campus versus some sort of mishap from someone carrying a concealed weapon in class, I think most parents would rather take their chances that nothing will happen on their child's campus...I mean, the odds aren't even close.....

[ElNono]

This logic about the teacher going nuts is pretty stupid too. By that argument, we shouldn't have any police in a school neither. What's to stop a cop from committing mass murder at the school if he's going through a nasty divorce or gambled his money away and wants to end it all?

Hmm, Police officers go through a much more severe training and selection process than a simple concealed weapon permit and attending a crisis course. If these teachers would have to go through the same training and selection process that a cop has to go through, then I would definitely be more inclined to think that there's less room for human error.

[baseline bum]

Hmm, Police officers go through a much more severe training and selection process than a simple concealed weapon permit and attending a crisis course. If these teachers would have to go through the same training and selection process that a cop has to go through, then I would definitely be more inclined to think that there's less room for human error.

Cops are probably more likely to be criminals than are teachers, and they have more stress in their lives than almost any teacher does. Police screenings aren't any more infallible than teacher screenings would be. See messes such as the Rampart scandal or the New Orleans cops who were putting hits on drug dealers as a service to other dealers.

[MannyIsGod]

Weighing the chances that a school shooting will occur on campus versus some sort of mishap from someone carrying a concealed weapon in class, I think most parents would rather take their chances that nothing will happen on their child's campus...I mean, the odds aren't even close.....

Oh really? What are the odds then? Do tell.

[ElNono]

Cops are probably more likely to be criminals than are teachers, and they have more stress in their lives than almost any teacher does. Police screenings aren't any more infallible than teacher screenings would be. See messes such as the Rampart scandal or the New Orleans cops who were putting hits on drug dealers as a service to other dealers.

Care to back that up with any numbers?
I didn't say cops don't go wonka, but they do have a much more stringent training program that this would-be peacekeeping teachers.

[baseline bum]

Care to back that up with any numbers?
I didn't say cops don't go wonka, but they do have a much more stringent training program that this would-be peacekeeping teachers.

I said probably because I didn't have numbers. I said probably because you constantly hear about police killing people, assaulting people, raping people, running drugs, and so on. Lots of cops are crooked the same way lots of politicians are; because they want power. I'm not arguing the merits of having a police force at schools; I'm saying the whacked-out teacher scenario is less likely than the whacked-out cop. That stringent police training doesn't filter out the assholes, and nothing will disqualify everyone who wants to do wrong. That doesn't mean we should all just go hand in our weapons out of fear.

[Wild Cobra]

I fail to understand the mentality of those who are afraid of people carrying firearms legally. People who are willing to be screened for concealed carry permits should be held in high esteem rather than criticized. people who are known to have weapons are no where near the threat compared to one who will illegally take a firearm into a situation. We have too many firearms in the USA to control. Anyone wishing to commit a crime can get one rather easily. It is those who carry without going through the process who are a threat. Not those who submit to the permit process.

I'm curious. Why does the left cry about such things as tamper proof ID as an intrusion of personal freedoms, then not stand up for the second amendment?

Think about that the next time I call you guys libtards. You are truly retarded in the ways of real freedoms.

When it comes to schools, I do think they should institute a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy on the conceal carry. We don't want a criminal student taking a teacher by surprise to take his or her weapon, right? Besides, surprise is an important element. When the potential 'Columbine shooting' student decides to take action, it will likely be detoured if the student doesn't have a clue as to which classes has teachers with and without guns.

[Anti.Hero]

Seriously...

You have a bunch of fools in here who know nothing about CHL...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The OP article is about security inside the school:
"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said.

There some trained dudes outside the school called Police officers that handle matters outside campus.

Yeah, and of course those police officers don't have to worry about the rest of the community. Someone could kick in the front door to the school and by the time the police respond (unless their station is at the school's front door) they're just going to be counting bodies.

That's the point.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Do you want your kid to be the one that is on the losing end of those odds? I know most parents don't and I know that all it will take is one bad incident to happen and the district will be out millions of dollars...

Using a weapon inappropriately doesn't mean someone shot someone. If Florida's CHL laws are anything like the ones in Texas, you can be arrested for something as innocent as reaching for something on the high shelf at the supermarket and having some little old lady seeing your gun when your shirt comes up.

Your ignorance of the laws isn't an excuse to make stupid comments about it (what am I saying, you're an anti-gun, anti-American lefty :lol).

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Weighing the chances that a school shooting will occur on campus versus some sort of mishap from someone carrying a concealed weapon in class, I think most parents would rather take their chances that nothing will happen on their child's campus...I mean, the odds aren't even close.....

:lmao And where are all these mishaps among the state's many CHL holders that would translate to the school?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

it's hard to believe the "submissive sheep" attitude so prevalent in this country.

"gun-free zone" just means somewhere for wackos to go and pick off people to their heart's content...

Winner.

[ElNono]

Yeah, and of course those police officers don't have to worry about the rest of the community. Someone could kick in the front door to the school and by the time the police respond (unless their station is at the school's front door) they're just going to be counting bodies.

That's the point.

You're going to be counting bodies regardless. Listen, this country has a Constitution that gives you the right to bear arms. I completely respect that. I even despise the Pelosis out there that want to trump the Constitution with whatever bullshit they can come up with, only to (thankfully) get trumped by the Supreme Court. That said, I don't *have to* like the fact that people around me might be carrying guns. I just accept it as a trade-off of living in this country. Also, unless this ordinance becomes popular, it doesn't affect me much, since you can always send your kids to another school.

[ElNono]

I fail to understand the mentality of those who are afraid of people carrying firearms legally. People who are willing to be screened for concealed carry permits should be held in high esteem rather than criticized. people who are known to have weapons are no where near the threat compared to one who will illegally take a firearm into a situation. We have too many firearms in the USA to control. Anyone wishing to commit a crime can get one rather easily. It is those who carry without going through the process who are a threat. Not those who submit to the permit process.


You can hold the Virginia Tech murderer in high esteem, I guess. I sure won't.
After all, he actually legally purchased the guns he used. That is part of the problem too: the system of checks is obviously broken or worked around.
However, I'll stop here since it's not really relevant to this particular topic.

[MannyIsGod]

You can hold the Virginia Tech murderer in high esteem, I guess. I sure won't.
After all, he actually legally purchased the guns he used. That is part of the problem too: the system of checks is obviously broken or worked around.
However, I'll stop here since it's not really relevant to this particular topic.

Legally purchasing a weapon and holding a CHL are 2 completely different things. You really should learn a bit more about what a CHL actually is before you hit one more reply in this thread. All of your posts are so easily refuted because you keep replying out of ignorance.

[MannyIsGod]

All the information available shows that people with CHLs are incredibly law abiding having much lower criminal activity than the rest of the general population.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Will they be allowed to wear shoulder holsters? What about those wild west waist holsters

[ElNono]

Legally purchasing a weapon and holding a CHL are 2 completely different things. You really should learn a bit more about what a CHL actually is before you hit one more reply in this thread. All of your posts are so easily refuted because you keep replying out of ignorance.

A CHL is a Concealed Handgun License. Anybody can get one provided they pay the fees and pass the tests/background check. In the case of Texas, you have to complete a 10 hour course, qualifying at the range with a handgun, then pass a 50 question test. After that, you pay a fee and apply for the license with the State. The State then proceeds to do the background check on you, and issues the license. The license is good for 5 years after which it needs to be re-certified. CHL terms and conditions vary by State.

What else do I need to know? Am I missing something?

[baseline bum]

I can't comprehend why people can't get it through their heads that most mass shootings" in recent history have occurred at "gun-free" zones - churches or schools.

:tu

A level-headed person who knows how to use his weapon changes the balance of power pretty quickly over a nut just looking to blow everything away.

[Wild Cobra]

You can hold the Virginia Tech murderer in high esteem, I guess. I sure won't.
After all, he actually legally purchased the guns he used. That is part of the problem too: the system of checks is obviously broken or worked around.

True, but the fact that guns were banned in the school kept others, who are law abiding citizens, who may have stopped the incident, from bringing their weapons.



However, I'll stop here since it's not really relevant to this particular topic.

It is realvant. Gun free zones place a bullseye on the people in them who follow the laws. They become a safe zone for criminals who don't follow the laws.

[Wild Cobra]

Will they be allowed to wear shoulder holsters? What about those wild west waist holsters
Open carry and concealed are two different things. In most states, there is no question that a person has "the right to BEAR arms!" To bear arms is to openly carry. It is a constitutional right.

[JoeChalupa]

I wonder how long before some teacher snaps and goes postal.

[Wild Cobra]

I wonder how long before some teacher snaps and goes postal.

Don't you think they would bring a weapon in if they were to, legal or not?

It's illegal to bring a weapon into a post office. Therefore, postal examples only support that the ban doesn't help.

[ElNono]

you are checked out at 3 levels, Local, State and Federal. As Manny said above, a CHL is totally different than just "purchasing a gun legally".

That's part of the background check part on my CHL description. Again, what did I miss?



I can't comprehend why people can't get it through their heads that most mass shootings" in recent history have occurred at "gun-free" zones - churches or schools.


Not necessarily. The Beltway sniper attacks come to mind...



wacko criminals don't give a crap about gun laws or any other laws for that matter, why should the rest of us 'civilized' people sit around like fish in a barrel unable to defend ourselves?


The Constitution gives you the right to arm yourself. If you are not taking advantage of that right, it's only your fault and nobody else's. So i don't really know what are you bitching about.

[ElNono]

If one CHL person, teacher or student, was near the VT psycho, maybe it would have been a few dead rather than 30+

Maybe. Maybe it would have not made an iota of a difference. Maybe it would have been worse. We just won't know. Like I said earlier, we'll see how this ordinance works. If it saves a few lives, great. I still personally don't like it though.

[ElNono]

True, but the fact that guns were banned in the school kept others, who are law abiding citizens, who may have stopped the incident, from bringing their weapons.

Doesn't excuse the fact he shouldn't have been able to buy the guns to begin with. See, if controls really would have worked, then the incident would have not happened period.



It is realvant. Gun free zones place a bullseye on the people in them who follow the laws. They become a safe zone for criminals who don't follow the laws.

You just want to banter about gun free zones. That's cool, but not what I meant by being irrelevant.
My irrelevancy point was aimed towards the fact we're not discussing gun purchases or how does the checks for those purchases can fatally fail sometimes. That's all.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

A CHL is a Concealed Handgun License. Anybody can get one provided they pay the fees and pass the tests/background check. In the case of Texas, you have to complete a 10 hour course, qualifying at the range with a handgun, then pass a 50 question test. After that, you pay a fee and apply for the license with the State. The State then proceeds to do the background check on you, and issues the license. The license is good for 5 years after which it needs to be re-certified. CHL terms and conditions vary by State.

What else do I need to know? Am I missing something?

Yeah, apparently the leap in logic required to think someone would do all that just so they can go shoot up a school, instead of just going out and buying a gun, running down to Academy for ammo, and then heading over to the school of their choice.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Doesn't excuse the fact he shouldn't have been able to buy the guns to begin with. See, if controls really would have worked, then the incident would have not happened period.



The only thing that failed the system in the case of the VT shooter is that out of political correctness, his mental illness was not reported to those who had the responsibility of screening him for buying firearms.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:tu

A level-headed person who knows how to use his weapon changes the balance of power pretty quickly over a nut just looking to blow everything away.

Exactly. Not to mention, said nut doesn't know said level-headed person has a firearm, which changes the opportunity of surprise in the situation.

[ElNono]

Yeah, apparently the leap in logic required to think someone would do all that just so they can go shoot up a school, instead of just going out and buying a gun, running down to Academy for ammo, and then heading over to the school of their choice.

I already replied to this same argument here: LINK (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2720722&postcount=38)

My response was:
I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines that a teacher gets into a divorce/separation/depression/alcohol/drug abuse at some point, and unloads on the kids. You know, shit like that happens all the time. How many times you heard neighbors of some dude that just went to work and massacred 20 co-workers before blowing his head off saying 'He was a really nice guy. I'm shocked he could do such a thing'.

There's 5 years between re-certification in this specific case. You're telling me people can't change in 5 years?

[Spurminator]

I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines that a teacher gets into a divorce/separation/depression/alcohol/drug abuse at some point, and unloads on the kids. You know, shit like that happens all the time.

It does?


How many times you heard neighbors of some dude that just went to work and massacred 20 co-workers before blowing his head off saying 'He was a really nice guy. I'm shocked he could do such a thing'.

How many times has someone done that?

[ElNono]

The only thing that failed the system in the case of the VT shooter is that out of political correctness, his mental illness was not reported to those who had the responsibility of screening him for buying firearms.

Actually, it had nothing to do with political correctness. It had to do with the fact that under Virginia law at the time, his condition did not warrant reporting.
The system failed completely, because federal rules DID warrant reporting at the time. Somebody just thought that if he was ok under Virginia rules, he would be ok also under Federal rules.

Here's an article describing the situation at the time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/21guns.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[ElNono]

It does?
How many times has someone done that?

Shit, this is just off a quick google for 'co-workers massacre':

Brother, Former Co-Workers Testify In Massacre Trial

Luna is one of two men accused in the 1993 massacre at the Brown's Chicken restaurant in Palatine, and Luna's brother painted a different picture of Luna -- a former Brown's Chicken employee -- to the jury.

...

Another former Browns employee, Kristin Apple, was also called to testify.

She described Juan Luna as a peaceful, law-abiding and well-liked employee when he worked at the Palatine restaurant.

...

And this is how the case ended:
On May 10, 2007, Juan Luna was found guilty of all seven counts of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison on May 17. All but one juror had voted for the death penalty for Luna, but in Illinois the vote must be unanimous, so Luna was spared the death penalty. Jim Degorski's trial has yet to be set, but might begin in June 2008.

[Spurminator]

Okay, that's one. The implication I got from your post is that people shoot up schools and coworkers on a pretty regular basis.

[MannyIsGod]

Elnono just keeps arguing with anecdotal crap instead of providing some actual substances and proof.

[ElNono]

Elnono just keeps arguing with anecdotal crap instead of providing some actual substances and proof.

I only expressed that I don't personally like that ordinance. I also said that in this country there's not much you can do about that. I gave you examples where human error happens.

Do you need proof that the VT shooting happened? Don't be stupid.
You don't have to like my point of view. But I'm allowed to have my opinion just like you do.

[ElNono]

you just said "the State then proceeds to do the background check on you". I was just expanding that statement to show that you go through Local, State, and Fed background checks.

Gotcha. To expand even further, it's really State dependent. For example, in Virginia both the Federal and State background checks are done by the local Virginia police in cooperation with State and FBI officials. Other States submit the request for backgrounds checks to the FBI directly.



yes. when I was originally typing my post, I had "all mass shootings happen at gun-free zones", but then I changed it to "Most mass shootings..."


We can argue about gun-free zones forever. My interpretation is that 'gun-free zones' are actually unconstitutional anyways. But we all know that, at least in this country, anything goes under the 'protect the children' mantra.



I guess I'm bitching about all the "blissninnys" that think if we say "no guns anywhere" then the country will be one big happy place where everyone gets along.

I can agree with that. Just because it's basically an impossible proposition.

[cool hand]

make teachers certified (gun-toting)peace officers and discipline will return to the USA OVERNIGHT.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I already replied to this same argument here: LINK (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2720722&postcount=38)

My response was:
I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines that a teacher gets into a divorce/separation/depression/alcohol/drug abuse at some point, and unloads on the kids. You know, shit like that happens all the time. How many times you heard neighbors of some dude that just went to work and massacred 20 co-workers before blowing his head off saying 'He was a really nice guy. I'm shocked he could do such a thing'.

There's 5 years between re-certification in this specific case. You're telling me people can't change in 5 years?

I think you're overlooking part of the equation in all this. We've gone down the path of debating the screening capabilities of the CHL course. That was just one part of the condition for a teacher being allowed to carry.

The second was a crisis management course from local LE, and the final one was approval of the administration of the school. I suspect the people that work with the person every day would be able to catch a change in mood, etc. (unless they hide it very very very well and in that case nothing's going to stop him/her.