OH NOES.....Did Obamessiah say what I think he said.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

surprised, at least i didn't see, that the forum that Rick Warren held with the candidates on saturday hasn't been played out here, yet. anyway, i'll first start it off with this statement i heard Obamessiah say. first i had to read the transcript to confirm if i heard wright. i was wright indeed. here it goes.

WARREN: OK. The courts. Let me ask it this way. Which existing Supreme Court justice would you not have nominated?


OBAMESSIAH: That’s a good one. That’s a good one. I would not have nominated Clarence Thomas. [ applause ] I don’t think that he - I don’t think that he was as strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time for that elevation, setting aside the fact that I profoundly disagree with his interpretations of a lot of the Constitution.


Did He just try his hardest to say that Clarence Thomas was very
inexperienced for the job he was nominated for? hmmmmmmmmmm. Time to
get the Ol' "pot" and "kettle" name tags.

[Nbadan]

9 out of 10 past Presidents would agree - Thomas is weak...

[balli]

I didn't see the word inexperienced anywhere. I read it as Obama calling Clarence Thomas a stupid judge, not an inexperienced one. He wasn't implying that with more experience, Clarence Thomas would someday become a better jurist or reader of the constitution. Rather, he was implying that Clarence Thomas didn't know jack shit regardless of experience, or inexperience. And really, I doubt Obama thinks that has changed for Thomas, in spite of all his subsequent years of experience.


And BTW, he's right. Clarence Thomas is a fucking retard relative to the other 8 justices. Oh if only Bush's insanely stupid and fucked up nomination of Harriet Miers hadn't been ridiculed and chased out of Washington on a rail (by a republican house and senate no less :lmao). She might have been the only potential justice who could've made Thomas look only halfway dimwitted by comparison.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

9 out of 10 past Presidents would agree - Thomas is weak...would 9 out of 10 past presidents agree that Obamessiah is experienced for the job he's nominated for? that's what i'm getting at. this thread doesn't have Maytag, Whirlpool, or Kenmore attached to it so there's no need to spin.

[Nbadan]

So, are you implying that Thomas deserves to be a jurist just because he is African American?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

So, are you implying that Thomas deserves to be a jurist just because he is African American?
ChumpDumper? is that you?

[Nbadan]

......Chumpy is Slomo.......or that's the rumor...

[Spurminator]

This is going to be absolutely devastating for the Obama campaign. He's just completely alienated the four Clarence Thomas-loving Democrat voters.

[balli]

would 9 out of 10 past presidents agree that Obamessiah is experienced for the job he's nominated for? that's what i'm getting at. this thread doesn't have Maytag, Whirlpool, or Kenmore attached to it so there's no need to spin.

Obama is experienced as any of the other recent presidents. IYRC, Reagan, Clinton and piece of shit Dubya were all governors before becoming president. The only exception in terms of longevity in DC being Bush 1- a creature of Nixon if you choose to count that as "good" experience. I don't see how being a governor from Texas, California or Arkansas makes one any more experienced for the presidency than being a Senator from Illinois. Especially since, as a Senator, Obama's dealt with national and international issues as opposed to local & state concerns only. So yeah, in a big way, fuck the "inexperienced" rap when it comes to Obama.

[Tully365]

I don’t think that he - I don’t think that he was as strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time for that elevation

There's no mention of inexperience whatsoever. You might as well accuse Obama of claiming that Thomas is an antelope or a bicycle.

[PixelPusher]

Did He just try his hardest to say that Clarence Thomas was very
inexperienced for the job he was nominated for? hmmmmmmmmmm. Time to
get the Ol' "pot" and "kettle" name tags.

No, but for the umpteenth time an Obamaphobic poster on Spurstalk tries to put words in Obama's mouth.

If there was equivalence between being a Supreme Court Justice and being the President, you'd just might have a point.

...but there isn't.

Fail.

[balli]

Obama is experienced as any of the other recent presidents. IYRC, Reagan, Clinton and piece of shit Dubya were all governors before becoming president. The only exception in terms of longevity in DC being Bush 1- a creature of Nixon if you choose to count that as "good" experience. I don't see how being a governor from Texas, California or Arkansas makes one any more experienced for the presidency than being a Senator from Illinois. Especially since, as a Senator, Obama's dealt with national and international issues as opposed to local & state concerns only. So yeah, in a big way, fuck the "inexperienced" rap when it comes to Obama.
Cont.

And you might say, "ballijuana, compared to McCain, Obama's inexperienced."
And it is true, in terms of longevity Obama has less "experience" than McCain. but that is not the same thing as being inexperienced. To use this metaphor; my buddy Pete's got some years on me and has been playing basketball a lot longer than I have, but that doesn't mean I don't fuck him up every time we step on the floor. Certainly Pete has much more "experience" than me when it comes to basketball, but does that make him the better player and does that somehow make me an "inexperienced" basketball player?

Certainly McCain has more longaevitas experientia in the US Senate, but does that automatically mean that he's a better Senator than Barack Obama? And does that make Obama an inexperienced candidate?


And if you want to argue along the lines of life experience and age, let's look no further than the most recent Republican president: His experience includes getting a bunch of shitty grades, snorting a lot of blow, bankrupting a bunch of daddy's companies, drinking an ocean of fucking alcohol, ruining a baseball team, destroying the good name of Ann Richards in a vile way, finding Jesus in a now proven to be fictionalized walk with Billy Graham, marrying a closet chain smoker and basically eeking through his entire life on daddy's dime and shamefully dickheaded charisma. Yes, the Republican standards for experience are quite lofty, we can all see that. :rolleyes

[MannyIsGod]

Did you pull a muscle trying for this reach?

This is why American politics is funny as hell at times.

[MannyIsGod]

......Chumpy is Slomo.......or that's the rumor...

:lmao x 4384390380

[Ignignokt]

the pigs are squeeling.

[Kori Ellis]

How can ChumpDumper be Slomo?

CD lives in Austin. Slomo lives in Slovenia.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Fabbs]

would 9 out of 10 past presidents agree that Obamessiah is experienced for the job he's nominated for? that's what i'm getting at. this thread doesn't have Maytag, Whirlpool, or Kenmore attached to it so there's no need to spin.
Ross Perots line from the debates with Bush Sr.:
"I have no experience running up a trillion dollar national debt."

Gee what could Obama tell Oil n War Corp and you his sheep he has "no experience" accomplishing? :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

This is a badly-timed gaffe by Obama -- anyone who's watched the Court for the last couple of decades knows that there are few jurists who bring the sort of experience and intelligence to the job of judging that Justice Thomas does. From his insightful and frequently-asked questions during oral arguments to his complete independence from pedestrian legal minds like that possessed by Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas is, dare I say, the greatest jurist to don the robe at One First Street.

Obama will rue the day that he defies the commonly-held belief in the judicial greatness of Justice Thomas. This is a HUGE deal that I think will tilt the election and mark the functional end of the Obamessiah's chances to win.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

the only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced. nothing more nothing less.

here's your prize for playing, amy
http://chidiet.com/images3/banana1.jpg

[FromWayDowntown]

the only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced. nothing more nothing less.

That would be a salient point if Senator Obama had questioned the experience of Justice Thomas; it's quite clear that Senator Obama questioned the qualifications of Justice Thomas, not his experience -- that is, Senator Obama didn't question the experience of Justice Thomas unless you choose to take some preordained anti-Obama view of the quotation seeking to create conflict that doesn't exist.

[xrayzebra]

So, are you implying that Thomas deserves to be a jurist just because he is African American?

No but The Messiah was slamming him trying to pander to the bunch who are scared he would choose all "blacks" for his administration. See, he wouldn't have choosen Thomas.

Thomas is has been a good judge. You slam him but would defend the idiot Ginsburg.

[FromWayDowntown]

No but The Messiah was slamming him trying to pander to the bunch who are scared he would choose all "blacks" for his administration. See, he wouldn't have choosen Thomas.

That would be true if Obama had said anything about the race of Justice Thomas -- and I haven't heard anyone express concern that Obama would appoint "all blacks" to important roles in his Administration and I'm not sure why that would be a concern, so long as the people Obama might appoint for those positions are qualified. (Surely, you aren't suggesting that there aren't enough qualified blacks in this nation to fill an Administration). But, significantly, that "concern" would seem completely unfounded since it sure doesn't sound as if there's much chance that he'll name an African-American to be his running mate -- that would be a bad start to those who might monger fear by suggesting that Obama's administration would be all black.


Thomas is has been a good judge. You slam him but would defend the idiot Ginsburg.

I'll wait for a long list of the really good decisions -- the landmark rulings -- that have come from the chambers of Justice Thomas.

What is funny about the conservative defense of Justice Thomas is that during the Rehnquist era, the presence of J. Thomas probably pushed centrists like Justice O'Connor and Justice Kennedy further to the relative left of the spectrum and left Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas dissenting on major issues far more frequently than they were in the majority.

[xrayzebra]

That would be true if Obama had said anything about the race of Justice Thomas -- and I haven't heard anyone express concern that Obama would appoint "all blacks" to important roles in his Administration; indeed, it sure doesn't sound as if there's much chance that he'll name an African-American to be his running mate -- that would be a bad start to those who might monger fear by suggesting that Obama's administration would be all black.


Do you really think he had to say anything about Justice Thomas race?
I feel that was widely known and didn't have to be commented on.

[FromWayDowntown]

Do you really think he had to say anything about Justice Thomas race?
I feel that was widely known and didn't have to be commented on.

Of course you did -- that's why you felt obliged to comment on it, I guess.

Who is it, again, that's worried about an all black administration -- I honestly haven't heard that concern ever expressed. And why exactly would that be a concern again?

[Spurminator]

xray, stop playing the race card.

[Oh, Gee!!]

viva las espuelas is to creating threads as thomas is to creating opinions

[clambake]

viva las espuelas is to creating threads as thomas is to creating opinions

:lol

[FromWayDowntown]

viva las espuelas is to creating threads as thomas is to creating opinions

You mean he waits to see what Justice Scalia has to say?

[clambake]

You mean he waits to see what Justice Scalia has to say?

ouch :lol

i like it when a thread gets salvaged.

[MannyIsGod]

viva las espuelas is to creating threads as thomas is to creating opinions

So Thomas uses the same predictable jokes too?

What I want to know is if Thomas has ever fried a motherboard by shoving RAM in backwards. What would the judicial equivilant of fucking up that badly be?

[xrayzebra]

xray, stop playing the race card.

Just following the dimm-o-crap line. You know like The Messiah said, he doesn't look like those other Presidents on the greenbacks.

[Oh, Gee!!]

You mean he waits to see what Justice Scalia has to say?

I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waiters.

[xrayzebra]

I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waiters.

Tip: Get a new job where they pay decent wages.:lol

And you wont have to depend on cheap old fats like me for a living.:toast

[FromWayDowntown]

Just following the dimm-o-crap line. You know like The Messiah said, he doesn't look like those other Presidents on the greenbacks.

Who, again, has expressed concern for an all-black administration?

I'm really (honestly) curious about that.

[shelshor]

......Chumpy is Slomo.......or that's the rumor...

I've met both--they are definitely 2 separate and distinct people

[Wild Cobra]

Who, again, has expressed concern for an all-black administration?

I'm really (honestly) curious about that.

I don't recall anyone with such a concern anywhere. However, if a republican choose an all white administration, would he be subject to being called a racist?

Something to think about.

Now I do know this. Some people would step up and call them racists just because everyone knows that's how the liberal propaganda treats conservative. They would show others what it's like to be subject to such allegations. You can also trust there is cause to make such statements against Obama if he does place all or mostly blacks in high positions. Just look at Obama's associates, who are clearly bigoted.

What about the media? They play along with the liberals. They air such stories against whites when they are available. Think they would play along with some conservative pundit who spun the idea, or defend Obama. I say the media would defend him rather than play along like they would if the target was a republican or conservative.

[Spurminator]

Just following the dimm-o-crap line.

Are you a Democrat?

[Spurminator]

I don't recall anyone with such a concern anywhere. However, if a republican choose an all white administration, would he be subject to being called a racist?

Something to think about.

Now I do know this. Some people would step up and call them racists just because everyone knows that's how the liberal propaganda treats conservative. They would show others what it's like to be subject to such allegations. You can also trust there is cause to make such statements against Obama if he does place all or mostly blacks in high positions. Just look at Obama's associates, who are clearly bigoted.

What about the media? They play along with the liberals. They air such stories against whites when they are available. Think they would play along with some conservative pundit who spun the idea, or defend Obama. I say the media would defend him rather than play along like they would if the target was a republican or conservative.


Are you trying to imply some kind of double standard here?

There would be questions either way. Given the melting pot of American culture and the diversity among people qualified for cabinet positions, it would be foolish for any President to put forth a cabinet of a single race.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll give you a concern.

My concern would be they were chosen because they were black rather than qualified. If they were qualified, I have no beef with an all black administration. I am against affirmative action. I do not believe whites or others should be in place for quotas

[Wild Cobra]

Are you trying to imply some kind of double standard here?
Absolutely!

[ChumpDumper]

I've met both--they are definitely 2 separate and distinct peopleThat's what I wanted you to believe.

[Anti.Hero]

Obama is doing wonders for the black community by shit talking leading black conservatives.

Well done Obamassiah. Well done. Time to get 8 more Ginsbergs in that bitch and really save this country!!!! :toast

[ChumpDumper]

I'll give you a concern.

My concern would be they were chosen because they were black rather than qualified. If they were qualified, I have no beef with an all black administration. I am against affirmative action. I do not believe whites or others should be in place for quotasSo you were against the nomination of Thomas to the Supreme Court.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

ooga booga. blum blum blum boo. bigalee bigalee?

ooga booga wooogie boogie RAM boombo. (thump chest) ooga booga woogie boogie?

sorry. can't read chimp. i fell asleep during that class.

[FromWayDowntown]

sorry. can't read chimp. i fell asleep during that class.

Nothing quite like avoiding the substance of criticisms with gibberish.

That is, after all, the sustenance that keeps this forum thriving.

[Mr. Peabody]

My concern would be they were chosen because they were black rather than qualified.

I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.

[Spurminator]

I'll give you a concern.

My concern would be they were chosen because they were black rather than qualified. If they were qualified, I have no beef with an all black administration. I am against affirmative action. I do not believe whites or others should be in place for quotas

Why is this even a concern? Do you really think there is a chance Obama will nominate an entirely black cabinet?



Absolutely!

What is the double standard? As I said, it's likely that any President who nominated a cabinet composed entirely of a single race would be criticized for soing so. Do you disagree?

[PixelPusher]

I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.
FFY
(dude, seriously...you overestimate them)

[Mr. Peabody]

FFY
(dude, seriously...you overestimate them)

Dammit, I always forget to use blue. Nice catch.

[boutons_]

"only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced."

Court watchers, not neo-c*nt idealogues, have a consensus that Thomas is week, esp strong on ignoring established precedents.

McBefuddled is experienced in what compared with HUSSEIN? with dubya?

The system pukes weak candidates at us in the charade called democracy.

[xrayzebra]

Are you a Democrat?

If I say yes, will you love me in the morning?:lol

[xrayzebra]

"only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced."

Court watchers, not neo-c*nt idealogues, have a consensus that Thomas is week, esp strong on ignoring established precedents.

McBefuddled is experienced in what compared with HUSSEIN? with dubya?

The system pukes weak candidates at us in the charade called democracy.

I wonder if boutons is old enough to vote?

[Wild Cobra]

So you were against the nomination of Thomas to the Supreme Court.
Not at all. Not then, not now. Have you read any of the opinions he wrote from the Supreme Court? He is an intelligent man who respects the constitution. It was the liberals who kept lying about him and calling him a "Uncle Tom."

[Wild Cobra]

sorry. can't read chimp. i fell asleep during that class.
You actually took that class? Wouldn't Ebonics have been more useful?

Or is it now Obomics?

[Anti.Hero]

Obama is a racist.

Leave Thomas alone!



What's next? Telling Thomas and other Black Conservatives to quit acting White?

[Wild Cobra]

Why is this even a concern? Do you really think there is a chance Obama will nominate an entirely black cabinet?

No, I think he will avoid such a possible scandal. I still think he will dispropotionally pick more placks than other races compared to the percentages who are qualified for the positions. I also qualified that by saying I feared he would pick those who were black rather than who were qualified. Qualification should come first, regardless of skin color.



What is the double standard? As I said, it's likely that any President who nominated a cabinet composed entirely of a single race would be criticized for doing so. Do you disagree?
No, I pointed it out myself that that would happen. I also pointed out that the media would likely make excuses for Obama whereas they would openly attack a white conservative or republican who picked all whites.

[Anti.Hero]

Obama will pluck every single one of his nominations out of the ACLU.

[Wild Cobra]

I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.

I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

Honestly, I presume that a person is qualified to hold a position, regardless of the color of his or her skin. As a professional, I certainly know that there are a significant number of whites in my field who were able to go to professional school because they come from privileged backgrounds, but who are decidedly less qualified than many blacks who are in the field. I think that assuming a lack of qualification based on skin color is absolutely absurd.

[Anti.Hero]

Just ask for an Asian Doctor. Problem solved.

[clambake]

so most smart people avoid black surgeons.

wow.....just wow.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I think we all do.

you need a new sarcasm detector

[Wild Cobra]

"only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced."

I agree with that statement. What is Obama experienced at besides being a community activist... organizer...



Court watchers, not neo-c*nt idealogues, have a consensus that Thomas is week, esp strong on ignoring established precedents.

He's a quiet man and going against establish precedent if completely proper for members of the Supreme Court. Shows he has a mind of his own.



McBefuddled is experienced in what compared with HUSSEIN? with dubya?

A great deal actually.

He stayed in the Navy after being released from the war. He became commanding officer of a training squadron stationed in Florida. He turned around an undistinguished unit and won the squadron its first Meritorious Unit Commendation. He served as the Navy's liaison to the U.S. Senate. He became an Admiral while in the Navy before becoming a public servant. That is a position that requires executive skills. Obama has no executive experience.



The system pukes weak candidates at us in the charade called democracy.

McCain is not a weak candidate. He far outshines Obama. Obama just has forces of stupidity, racial guilt from liberals, etc. on his side. He has no qualifications for the most important executive position in the world.

That said, I repeat that I don't like McCain because he is a RINO. I would vote for him against Obama as the lesser of two evils if he were a democrat, but not as a republican. I'll still likely vote for Bob Barr.

[shelshor]

That's what I wanted you to believe.

Your talents are wasted--head for a new career in make-up at a Hollywood studio

[Spurminator]

No, I think he will avoid such a possible scandal.

Do you think he would nominate an entirely black cabinet if there were no chance at a "scandal"?



No, I pointed it out myself that that would happen. I also pointed out that the media would likely make excuses for Obama whereas they would openly attack a white conservative or republican who picked all whites.

I still don't see a double standard here. In either situation you would have discussion, debate and controversy. And in either situation you would have some defending the President and some criticizing the President.

[ChumpDumper]

Not at all. Not then, not now.So you are for giving less qualified and less experienced minorities important government positions.

Ok.

[FromWayDowntown]

I still don't see a double standard here. In either situation you would have discussion, debate and controversy. And in either situation you would have some defending the President and some condemning the President.

Come on, spurminator -- everyone knows that there would be no skepticism about the qualifications of the individuals appointed to an all-white cabinet; of course those individuals would be qualified. After all, that's why you don't see people lining up to go to black surgeons!!

[Oh, Gee!!]

Cliff Huxtable is turning over in his grave right now.

[Spurminator]

I mean I've seen some stretches for scare tactics created by the opposition to Presidential candidates but "He's going to nominate a disproportionately black cabinet" is ridiculous on more levels than anything I can remember. You're better off sticking with the "Obama is the Antichrist" allusions.

[PixelPusher]

I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.


I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

(case in point)

[PixelPusher]

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

Not quite on the level of your "Karma" comment, but definitely high on the list of your egregious hits.

[FromWayDowntown]

I mean I've seen some stretches for scare tactics created by the opposition to Presidential candidates but "He's going to nominate a disproportionately black cabinet" is ridiculous on more levels than anything I can remember. You're better off sticking with the "Obama is the Antichrist" allusions.

I'm still honestly curious to know who might have expressed some concern that Obama might create an "all black" administration. To this point, such a concern seems to be actually confined to posters in this thread; I haven't been able to locate evidence that anyone with a column or a radio show has actually had the courage to express concern about such a possibility.

[clambake]

I'm still honestly curious to know who might have expressed some concern that Obama might create an "all black" administration. To this point, such a concern seems to be actually confined to posters in this thread; I haven't been able to locate evidence that anyone with a column or a radio show has actually had the courage to express concern about such a possibility.

you're looking in the wrong place. you need to find the people who are not lined up for "black surgery".

[Mr. Peabody]

Cliff Huxtable is turning over in his grave right now.

Cliff Huxtable only got into Hillman because he was Black.

[Mr. Peabody]

(case in point)

True, but posting it without the blue had a funnier outcome.:lol

[Nbadan]

I've met both--they are definitely 2 separate and distinct people

For all we know, your Slomo too....

[Nbadan]

the only thing i'm getting at is obamessiah's audacity at calling someone inexperienced. nothing more nothing less.



http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/08/19/tomo/story.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/08/19/tomo/story.jpg
wow. that's some original cartoon. it makes me think the author's strip has been in a coma for 8 years.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow, interesting spin you placed on my words.



Perhaps in his subculture, people who are regarded as smart avoid black surgeons.

Knowing how affirmative action works is all that anyone needs. For years, college admissions in many schools have taken in lower qualified minorities over higher scoring whites to meet affirmative action quota's. Places that use affirmative action would take people by color over higher achieving whites. I think the few cases related to this practice over the last few years have put a stop to that, but there are those who have positions earned, but in the bottom of the class, driving the bottom lower than it would otherwise be.



I'm sure you are aware that there is a subculture of extremely right-wing white people in places like the South, or rural Oregon, who still believe that the real reason blacks don't achieve as highly as whites is because on average blacks are cognitively inferior due to genetics, only those white folk just don't say that in "polite company" because it isn't "politically correct."

I'm sure there are some who feel that way as well. However, it is not an intelligence issue. It is a cultural learning issue. This doesn't limit it to black/white, but the communities and values that people learn. In most places, the inner city schools are very poor compared to rural schools. Most of the black community lives in places of lower living standards, higher crime, and the social values are simply different by the environment.



They might grant that an exceptional Negro might emerge on occasion, but not that often.

100% wrong. That's what the democrats tend to do. People like me simply ask that the best qualified person be selected. If the best is a 'Negro,' That's fine with me, and most conservatives.

However... There is that occasional racist out there.



So because of affirmative action, it's hard for somebody seeking surgery in rural Oregon to discern whether the black surgeon in question is in fact a rare exceptional Negro, or rather just an ordinary stupid, violent, sexually aggressive one who would be better off working in the fields somewhere or being shipped back to Africa. So "smart" people in that subculture would just avoid patronizing the black surgeon's services altogether.

I would only want to know if he made it to medical school by merit, or by affirmative action.




From that standpoint, affirmative action is really holding the occasional exceptional Negro's prospects back.

It really does hold people back

People who dislike affirmative action for what it is are skeptical when it comes to black professionals. It does created a real act of discrimination, conscience or not, by people like me. If we only could trust they really were qualified rather than being given special favors by affirmative action, it would make a big difference.



Also, from that standpoint, Hitler was probably just misunderstood.

Do you want a real discussion on this topic, or not? Hitler has no place here.

[FromWayDowntown]

Knowing how affirmative action works is all that anyone needs. For years, college admissions in many schools have taken in lower qualified minorities over higher scoring whites to meet affirmative action quota's. Places that use affirmative action would take people by color over higher achieving whites. I think the few cases related to this practice over the last few years have put a stop to that, but there are those who have positions earned, but in the bottom of the class, driving the bottom lower than it would otherwise be.

That would be all fine and dandy, but by saying something like smart people avoid black surgeons, you presume that the vast majority of black surgeons (all of whom graduated from accredited medical schools, passed state boards, served years of fellowships and residencies, and were then granted staff privileges by the hospitals in which they operate) are unqualified. That sort of generality -- particularly given the field you're talking about -- is both hideously unfair and terribly unfounded.

What the generality in your statement also fails to account for is the number of whites who are admitted to medical schools because of who they are or who they know and not because they're wonderfully qualified.

At this point, I'd argue that the number of unqualified or underqualified blacks who get into professional schools is about equal to the number of their white counterparts.

[Wild Cobra]

That would be all fine and dandy, but by saying something like smart people avoid black surgeons, you presume that the vast majority of black surgeons (all of whom graduated from accredited medical schools, passed state boards, served years of fellowships and residencies, and were then granted staff privileges by the hospitals in which they operate) are unqualified. That sort of generality -- particularly given the field you're talking about -- is both hideously unfair and terribly unfounded.

Maybe so, but that is a real fear that affirmative action has cause in some people's mind. True or not, many people wonder if a person is qualified to acceptable standards. Again, I agree this is a form of prejudice.



What the generality in your statement also fails to account for is the number of whites who are admitted to medical schools because of who they are or who they know and not because they're wonderfully qualified.

Sure, this happens too. It is lesser known that all the stories over the years about affirmative action, and the debate of affirmative action between the left and the right.

Keep in mind, I am mainly speaking of a true perception among people. Not what is true. You you disagree that such perceptions are never considered by consumers or employers? It would never be a thought if the quota system never existed.



At this point, I'd argue that the number of unqualified or underqualified blacks who get into professional schools is about equal to the number of their white counterparts.

That may be true. I doubt it, but I will not contest the possibility.

[FromWayDowntown]

Maybe so, but that is a real fear that affirmative action has cause in some people's mind. True or not, many people wonder if a person is qualified to acceptable standards. Again, I agree this is a form of prejudice.

Fear and reality are two very different things. It strikes me as terribly irresponsible (to say nothing of being prejudicial and unfair) to perpetuate that fear with statements that aren't tied in any real way to reality.


Sure, this happens too. It is lesser known that all the stories over the years about affirmative action, and the debate of affirmative action between the left and the right.

I suspect that it's lesser known because it's just much easier to play on fears that track long held prejudices than to actually examine the facts -- aren't you big on getting to the real truth and not working from assumptions or generalities (I guess that's true everywhere except choosing a surgeon, eh?). Besides, you can't rail about the evils of affirmative action if you're admitting that there are qualified minorities who are entering fields that were once dominated by whites.


Keep in mind, I am mainly speaking of a true perception among people. Not what is true. You you disagree that such perceptions are never considered by consumers or employers? It would never be a thought if the quota system never existed.

I'll keep in mind that you believe that most people are predisposed to prejudices and struggle with the thought that most of the minorities who achieve high levels of success in their fields are in those positions presumably because of some racial preference and not because they've demonstrated themselves to be qualified.


That may be true. I doubt it, but I will not contest the possibility.

I can tell you for a fact that it was true in the professional school that I attended. I can also tell you, as a matter of observation, that it was equally true in the undergraduate institutions that I attended.

[medstudent]

All the black surgeons I know are "Oreos".

[clambake]

you have to admire how ES and FWDT remain civil in their discussions with an admitted racist.

[Wild Cobra]

you have to admire how ES and FWDT remain civil in their discussions with an admitted racist.
There you go again showing your utter stupidity. How about looking up the meanings of the following words:

Bigot.

Racist.

Prejudice.

Discrimination.

They are loosely realated, but each are also unique.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

you have to admire how ES and FWDT remain civil in their discussions with an admitted racist.

I don't know about you, but just because Extra didn't use any conventional insults doesn't mean he didn't actually insult him. :lol Sarcasm is a wonderful tool...

[PixelPusher]

There you go again showing your utter stupidity. How about looking up the meanings of the following words:

Bigot.

Racist.

Prejudice.

Discrimination.

They are loosely realated, but each are also unique.



Racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist Listen to the pronunciation of racist \-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective
If you prejudge someone based on their race, you are a racist. Absent any other information regarding surgeons' medical abilitites, you prejudge a black surgeon to be inferior in ability by no other standard than his race, ergo you are a racist.

Not "a different form of prejudice", just plain old fashioned racism.

[Wild Cobra]

If you prejudge someone based on their race, you are a racist. Absent any other information regarding surgeons' medical abilitites, you prejudge a black surgeon to be inferior in ability by no other standard than his race, ergo you are a racist.

Not "a different form of prejudice", just plain old fashioned racism.

Sorry, you are wrong. To be a racist specifically requires that you think your race or another is superior to another. Perceived bias of traits that may change on farther knowledge do not qualify for that definition, especially when you are relating to individuals of the race rather than the race. To be a racist is for example for a white to believe his race is superior to all blacks.

Discrimination can be because of a racial perception, but it does have it's own set of meanigs:


discrimination (plural discriminations) From the Latin "discriminare" meaning to "distinguish between"

1. Neutral discernment.
2. The act of discriminating, distinguishing, or noting/perceiving differences which exist.
3. The state of being discriminated against, distinguished from, or set apart.
4. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.
5. The arbitrary imposition of unequal tariffs for substantially the same service.
6. The quality of being discriminating; acute discernment; as to show great discrimination in the choice of means.
7. That which discriminates; mark of distinction.

People discriminate all the time. I like tall thin women over those of normal weight. I choose high fat cheese, whole milk, etc. over low fat. It simply tastes better. People choose items they buy often from perceived qualities when they see things in commercials, but they may not be choosing the best. Same with employment opportunities. Employers often believe the black candidates made their way by quota rather than merit. It may or may not be true, but often perceived. I don't hang around blacks who talk like they're out of the ghetto. However, I have black friends who can carry on with proper dialog. However... I treat whites the same. It is more often that I avoid certain blacks, but it is based on how I perceive them as being raised. Not because of there skin color. To discriminate because of affirmative action is not being a racist. You might be able to class it as racialism, but not racism.

Again, I really believe affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than good.

[clambake]

geeez, can't you at least be a proud racist?

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't hang around blacks who talk like they're out of the ghetto. However, I have black friends who can carry on with proper dialog. However... I treat whites the same. It is more often that I avoid certain blacks, but it is based on how I perceive them as being raised. Not because of there skin color. To discriminate because of affirmative action is not being a racist. You might be able to class it as racialism, but not racism.

Another interesting comment: seemingly, you've just acknowledged that you allow your perceptions about how you think blacks were raised to make a difference in the way that you interact with blacks who haven't yet shown you their "social merits" while presuming more frequently that whites are somehow worthy of your time despite having no knowledge of their backgrounds?

Maybe it's just me, but I find it really offensive to presume (as you seem to) that most blacks couldn't be upwardly mobile without affirmative action and that any blacks who are upwardly mobile are suspect because you presume them to be products of affirmative action until proven otherwise and discriminate accordingly.

I also love use of rhetoric about discriminating in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with repression or historical biases as a proxy for justifying ongoing discrimination that functionally repressive (smart people don't go to black surgeons) and is based entirely upon supposition and politics.

[Wild Cobra]

Another interesting comment: seemingly, you've just acknowledged that you allow your perceptions about how you think blacks were raised to make a difference in the way that you interact with blacks who haven't yet shown you their "social merits" while presuming more frequently that whites are somehow worthy of your time despite having no knowledge of their backgrounds?

Not true. Initial perceptions are not the same as knowledge gained usually. We all have our own social standards when it comes to people we choose to associate with. I did say that I don't hang around whites with the same qualities. As for how I think they were raised? I do hold of that judgement until I see enough to understand them. Remember, much of what I said earlier relates to general thoughts that others have too. Discussions with other whites I know bring out alot of concerns and more that I have raised. However, of all the people I associate with, I would only call one of them a racist. Note... He is someone I associate with. Not a friend.



Maybe it's just me, but I find it really offensive to presume (as you seem to) that most blacks couldn't be upwardly mobile without affirmative action and that any blacks who are upwardly mobile are suspect because you presume them to be products of affirmative action until proven otherwise and discriminate accordingly.

I do not presume blacks are not upwardly mobile. I have worked with several blacks who are highly skilled professionals. I know better than to think such things. I have also seen the products of affirmative action who clearly did not deserve the positions they attained. And yes, I have seen the same among whites who gained their position by who's ass they kissed, or who they knew.



I also love use of rhetoric about discriminating in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with repression or historical biases as a proxy for justifying ongoing discrimination that functionally repressive (smart people don't go to black surgeons) and is based entirely upon supposition and politics.

It is a sad supposition. However, I must be one of the only whites who do speak of it. There are many who do feel the same about blacks because of affirmative action. This would not exist if affirmative action didn't, and in today's world, I believe it is the leading cause keeping qualified blacks down. Because employers fear they might be hiring a product of affirmative action.

[JoeChalupa]

It was a good forum.

[Wild Cobra]

geeez, can't you at least be a proud racist?

Are you proud to have an IQ below 80?

[clambake]

like i said before, please don't let your kids read your post. it's even more embarrassing for them to see your weak attempts to backpedal. ( if thats even possible)

[Wild Cobra]

like i said before, please don't let your kids read your post. it's even more embarrassing for them to see your weak attempts to backpedal. ( if thats even possible)
Well, they have a college education and laugh at people like you who don't know the proper meaning of words.

At least they will go places in life. Will you?

[clambake]

Well, they have a college education and laugh at people like you who don't know the proper meaning of words.
and they sit around watching you post in spurstalk? that must sting.


At least they will go places in life.
you mean when they're sufficiently bored with watching you post?


Will you?
gee, i hope so.

[FromWayDowntown]

Not true. Initial perceptions are not the same as knowledge gained usually. We all have our own social standards when it comes to people we choose to associate with. I did say that I don't hang around whites with the same qualities. As for how I think they were raised? I do hold of that judgement until I see enough to understand them.

Of course initial perceptions are not the same as gained knowledge. But throughout this thread, you've insisted upon your default position of skepticism towards blacks -- indeed, you've said that you "avoid certain blacks" based solely on your perception of their backgrounds and without regard to the merits of the individuals you're avoiding. Though the rest of what you've posted isn't entirely clear, it does seem as though your relationships with whites are not laced by such skepticism. Don't you see something fundamentally prejudicial about such a thing -- would you think that a black person whose views were directly opposite of yours would be prejudiced?


Remember, much of what I said earlier relates to general thoughts that others have too. Discussions with other whites I know bring out alot of concerns and more that I have raised. However, of all the people I associate with, I would only call one of them a racist. Note... He is someone I associate with. Not a friend.

So this is the "I'm not really expressing my thoughts as much as I am expressing the thoughts of my racist friends" defense? Don't hide behind someone else's thoughts -- even if someone else suggested to you that smart people don't see black surgeons, you're the one who expressed that thought publicly. Take responsibility for the asinine statements you make.


I do not presume blacks are not upwardly mobile. I have worked with several blacks who are highly skilled professionals. I know better than to think such things. I have also seen the products of affirmative action who clearly did not deserve the positions they attained. And yes, I have seen the same among whites who gained their position by who's ass they kissed, or who they knew.

But, again, you've said in essence that smart people should be skeptical about whether successful blacks have gained those positions via affirmative action. It's hard to square your swearing off of prejudicial rhetoric with your avowed belief that successful blacks are presumably successful because affirmative action got them there. I don't really see how you get around that without completely reversing yourself about the initial perceptions you bring to the table about those who are black and successful -- your hypothetical surgeon, for instance. It would be one thing if you were skeptical of all successful people, but you've said your not. You're skeptical of successful blacks, which certainly seems to suggest that you find it unlikely that most blacks could be successful without affirmative action to propel them.


It is a sad supposition. However, I must be one of the only whites who do speak of it. There are many who do feel the same about blacks because of affirmative action. This would not exist if affirmative action didn't, and in today's world, I believe it is the leading cause keeping qualified blacks down. Because employers fear they might be hiring a product of affirmative action.

Only insane employers would reject a black candidate who shows himself or herself to be capable. Fortunately, like insane employers who can change the beliefs that inform their hiring practices, bigoted whites can (believe it or not) simply choose to believe that blacks are capable and independently successful, whether their initial chance to prove that came about through leveling mechanisms or not. You choose to use affirmative action as a proxy for your beliefs because it somehow seems more civilized to couch your bigotry in socio-political criticism than to just overtly state your prejudices. It's really quite shameful.

[Wild Cobra]

gee, i hope so.
Hope rather than confidence?

You must be an Obama supporter.

Hope and change.

Did he ever say what policies, what hope, what change?

Besides the change left in or pockets after raising taxes?

[clambake]

Hope rather than confidence?

You must be an Obama supporter.

Hope and change.

Did he ever say what policies, what hope, what change?

Besides the change left in or pockets after raising taxes?

backpedal. you need a break.

[Wild Cobra]

FromWayDowntown;

Believe as you wish of me. It doesn't matter that much. People around me know the truth, and I don't know you, so you don't matter to me. I see you are prejudiced not to think outside the box. You obviously think any criticism of a black is racism. So be it. That is your trap, not mine. I try to explain how whites perceive blacks under specific conditions and you wish to assume the worse. Again, your trap. Not mine.

Keep in mind that such bias that you show keeps the discussion closed rather than open. Stay ignorant to others real thoughts if you like. Improper criticism simply closed the discourse. Open mind means open discourse. I guess I will not change your mind about me, so what's the point to continue?

[FromWayDowntown]

Wild Cobra:

I believe of you only what your actions and words say I should. It's interesting to me that you feel quite comfortable generalizing about others, but dislike having your own words used to characterize you.

I also find it interesting that you're willing to suggest that I'm the one who suffers from prejudice and that I'm refusing to think outside of the box when you believe that more people think as you do than think as I do. I don't feel trapped by my belief in others and my refusal to read limitations into skin color. I'm merely wondering what drives your views and believe that your views are driven primarily by unfounded prejudices that can be neatly disguised behind political rhetoric.

I'm here to discuss whatever you want; I can only discern your thoughts from what you post and I try to give you every opportunity to tell me that I'm wrong by explaining in some persuasive way why I'm wrong -- not just that you think I'm wrong. I would expect the same of anyone else taking me to task for anything that I write. I'll never open my mind to the possibility that viewing people with prejudices is a good thing, so perhaps your last sentence is correct with respect to this issue; trust me, I'm not going to spend a lot of time thinking about how you feel on this particular issue and I'll happily discuss any other topic with you that arises on this forum, whether I agree with you or not.

[Wild Cobra]

Bump...



You can blame Affirmative Action (a racist policy) for the fact that black surgeons skills are questioned.
Exactly. Why is that so hard for people to comprehend?

[clambake]

Well, they have a college education and laugh at people like you who don't know the proper meaning of words.


and they sit around watching you post in spurstalk? that must sting.

[Wild Cobra]

Here is what started it on 8/18/08, post #59:


I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.

I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

[clambake]

you're a product of affirmative action. only white.

[Mr. Peabody]

I knew I should have posted that comment in blue. I didn't think it was necessary(after all, who could be simple-minded enough to think I was being serious?), but Pixel called it.

[Johnson]

or now you could be backpeddling.... who knows?

[CubanMustGo]

Bump...


Exactly. Why is that so hard for people to comprehend?


Tell me you didn't just bump a thread (a pretty asinine one at that) that was two years old to make this 'point.'

[Galileo]

9 out of 10 past Presidents would agree - Thomas is weak...

Thomas is the only Supreme Court justice smart enough to understand the commerce clause; that manufacturing and agriculture are not commerce.

The Founding Fathers understood this. John Marshall understood this.

[LnGrrrR]

This is a badly-timed gaffe by Obama -- anyone who's watched the Court for the last couple of decades knows that there are few jurists who bring the sort of experience and intelligence to the job of judging that Justice Thomas does. From his insightful and frequently-asked questions during oral arguments to his complete independence from pedestrian legal minds like that possessed by Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas is, dare I say, the greatest jurist to don the robe at One First Street.

Obama will rue the day that he defies the commonly-held belief in the judicial greatness of Justice Thomas. This is a HUGE deal that I think will tilt the election and mark the functional end of the Obamessiah's chances to win.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[LnGrrrR]

Here's what I don't get... WC acts like affirmative action is the only possible way a non-qualified person could be a surgeon. It couldn't be that the person doing applications is friends with the student's father, or the dean owes a guy a favor because the faterh donated money, or any number of other factors apart from skill that would allow a nonqualified person to have that job. His skepticism towards these other events seems to be nil. Why not just evaluate a doctor's skill independent of skin color?

On top of that, doesn't affirmative action only play into the PLACEMENT of these people into a program, and not their graduation? I assume that all black surgeons chosen for affirmative actions passed any requisite tests, making them equal to any white surgeon. Do you think the medical board allows more blacks to inflate their number, when they wouldn't normally? Do you think that such a small amount of blacks are in the medical field that they need to scrape the bottom of the barrel?

[Wild Cobra]

I knew I should have posted that comment in blue. I didn't think it was necessary(after all, who could be simple-minded enough to think I was being serious?), but Pixel called it.
If you are comfortable with people changing the meaning of definitions.

[Wild Cobra]

Tell me you didn't just bump a thread (a pretty asinine one at that) that was two years old to make this 'point.'
I did so because such talk someone was sidetracking another thread in the Geek section, bringing this up there.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's what I don't get... WC acts like affirmative action is the only possible way a non-qualified person could be a surgeon.
I'm not doing any such thing.

It couldn't be that the person doing applications is friends with the student's father, or the dean owes a guy a favor because the faterh donated money, or any number of other factors apart from skill that would allow a nonqualified person to have that job.
And this happens all the time. People regularly dislike the guy that made a position because of connections. These connections often make for bad decisions in hiring. On top of that, the people usually know. "Jim got a good job because his father is a CEO."

His skepticism towards these other events seems to be nil.
Not at all.

Why not just evaluate a doctor's skill independent of skin color?

When it comes to a surgeon, how often do you have a choice, or have a working relationship with one? Most people have very few surgeries in their life, if any. What are you going to base this evaluation on?b Other patient records are private.

Doctors, yes. You can change doctors pretty easily.


On top of that, doesn't affirmative action only play into the PLACEMENT of these people into a program, and not their graduation?
In the past, yes. I think legal challenges have effectively removed the quota system a few years ago.

I assume that all black surgeons chosen for affirmative actions passed any requisite tests, making them equal to any white surgeon.
A pass/fail test standard doesn't day shit.

Do you think the medical board allows more blacks to inflate their number, when they wouldn't normally?
I don't know. I don't know, but if quota's are used, how do we know the best candidates get a job, or if someone with the wrong skin color is passed over, until the next qualified black is found?

Do you think that such a small amount of blacks are in the medical field that they need to scrape the bottom of the barrel?

Now, absolutely not. At least not these lase several years. The time period in question is a decade and longer back, where physicians now may be bad choices.

Let me make just one point clear again. The quota part of affirmative action causes such things to be unknown. The unknown causes fear, sometimes unfounded. My examples are not as I believe in all cases, but possibilities, that keep the good black people down. The fear that these possibilities are why they have the positions they have. This is a problem caused by affirmative action, in an attempt to fix things.

[LnGrrrR]

Not at all.

You've already said you're skeptical of how some blacks are raised, but haven't mentioned a similar skepticism towards whites.

On top of that, I don't see you railing against "good old boy" networks that professions like lawyers and doctors can have (family practice, eh?) or even mentioning worry about these possibilities.


When it comes to a surgeon, how often do you have a choice, or have a working relationship with one? Most people have very few surgeries in their life, if any. What are you going to base this evaluation on?b Other patient records are private.

See, there's this thing we use called the INTERNET... where people post their personal opinions of various doctors. It's not perfect, but it sure does help.

And then there's also official things like medical boards, associations, etc etc that will disbar doctors who aren't performing up to snuff.


A pass/fail test standard doesn't day shit.

Uhm... so you don't think doctors have to pass tests to make it through medical school? Note: tests don't have to be written... it could be actually performing a medical procedure correctly. I'm assuming that all doctors have to perform surgeries/procedures correctly in order to get their degree, correct?


I don't know. I don't know, but if quota's are used, how do we know the best candidates get a job, or if someone with the wrong skin color is passed over, until the next qualified black is found?

How do you know the surgeon isn't the son of some doctor that got there on his father's pedigree? You don't. That's why you research what other patients say about your doctor.


Now, absolutely not. At least not these lase several years. The time period in question is a decade and longer back, where physicians now may be bad choices.

If it pertains to a decade or so ago, why do you still feel that way? And if all these blacks got in due to the quota system over a decade ago, then how do you still think they're in business? If they were poor surgeons/doctors, then wouldn't they be out of business, thanks to the power of the free market?


Let me make just one point clear again. The quota part of affirmative action causes such things to be unknown. The unknown causes fear, sometimes unfounded. My examples are not as I believe in all cases, but possibilities, that keep the good black people down. The fear that these possibilities are why they have the positions they have. This is a problem caused by affirmative action, in an attempt to fix things.

And I can show you examples of where affirmative action worked successfully. Look at the NFL, and the rule that at least one minority coach had to be interviewed for head coaching positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule


At the start of the 2006 season, the overall percentage of African American coaches had jumped to 22%, up from 6% prior to the Rooney Rule.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule#cite_note-percentincrease-3) Even so, the policy is still debated and no team has stated whether the Rooney Rule contributed to the hiring of a minority.

Tell me WC, in this case, do you think that a bunch of non-deserving blacks were able to get head coaching positions for the NFL due to the quota system? If so, someone better tell Tony Dungy (who won the Lombardi as HC of the Colts) and Mike Tomlin (who won the Lombardi as HC of the Steelers).

Or maybe, it was just that the GMs in charge of hiring people just weren't looking as keenly at persons of color for their job openings? Not saying it was intentional by any means, but it could very well be the case.

I don't think the good black person is complaining about affirmative action. In the case of Colts and Steelers fans, I don't think they're complaining either.

[Blake]

..... so most smart people avoid black surgeons........ It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.



prej·u·dice\ˈpre-jə-dəs\ noun

Definition of PREJUDICE

c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics



rac·ism\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\ noun

Definition of RACISM

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2: racial prejudice or discrimination

[Kill Yourself]

..... so most smart people avoid black surgeons........ It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

[Winehole23]

@VLE:

OH NOES! Obamessiah didn't say what you thought he said.

[Winehole23]

Failed at delivery.

[CuckingFunt]

Here is what started it on 8/18/08, post #59:



I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

Firstly, Affirmative Action is not now, nor has it ever been, a quota system. Its labeling as such is nothing more than rampant misunderstanding of what the program entails coupled with a few well placed talking points/catch phrases planted by its opponents. Affirmative Action has sought to ensure that women and people of color were given equal opportunity to education and employment, not that institutions accept/employ a certain number of each identified minority.

Secondly, your mistrust of Black doctors, specifically, is not supported by your assertion that Affirmative Action is the sole source of your concern. If Affirmative Action was the only reason you had an issue with certain doctors, your above quote would say that most smart people avoid non-White non-male doctors. But, it doesn't. Not only do you show no signs of distrusting White doctors who may have been grandfathered into medical programs and allowed to coast by the power of their connections, your comments indicate no concerns about the competence of females or other people of color within the medical field. Throughout your many explanations and justifications, at no point have your comments moved beyond the issue of Black doctors. Indicating, despite your protestations to the contrary, an assumption or belief that Black people are uniquely and inherently more likely to need and/or receive special treatment or consideration than anyone else.

Lastly, in addition to being flat out wrong about Affirmative Action being a quota system, you are also wrong in your implication that it is a Black/White issue alone. Or even primarily. Women have benefited from Affirmative Action far more than Blacks or any other people of color.

[Wild Cobra]

Firstly, Affirmative Action is not now, nor has it ever been, a quota system.
The program started out with a proper perspective and intent. Later, parts of it did become quota systems.

Its labeling as such is nothing more than rampant misunderstanding of what the program entails coupled with a few well placed talking points/catch phrases planted by its opponents.

We disagree.


Affirmative Action has sought to ensure that women and people of color were given equal opportunity to education and employment, not that institutions accept/employ a certain number of each identified minority.

Yes, that was how it started.


Secondly, your mistrust of Black doctors, specifically, is not supported by your assertion that Affirmative Action is the sole source of your concern.

That is an example, and you read too much into it.


If Affirmative Action was the only reason you had an issue with certain doctors, your above quote would say that most smart people avoid non-White non-male doctors.
You didn't read the whole thread, did you?

But, it doesn't. Not only do you show no signs of distrusting White doctors who may have been grandfathered into medical programs and allowed to coast by the power of their connections, your comments indicate no concerns about the competence of females or other people of color within the medical field.

So, I have to explore every possibility, rather than point out a factual harm that quota systems have caused?

Forget that.


Throughout your many explanations and justifications, at no point have your comments moved beyond the issue of Black doctors. Indicating, despite your protestations to the contrary, an assumption or belief that Black people are uniquely and inherently more likely to need and/or receive special treatment or consideration than anyone else.

It is not my belief they need more help, but the belief of those who started such systems.


Lastly, in addition to being flat out wrong about Affirmative Action being a quota system, you are also wrong in your implication that it is a Black/White issue alone. Or even primarily. Women have benefited from Affirmative Action far more than Blacks or any other people of color.

I never said it was. Did I.

[ElNono]

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

bumpity bump

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ElNono]

For comparison, since you're now denying it:


Actually, that's nothing like what you said. I could go back and pull up the quote, but in a nutshell you made clear you wouldn't trust a black surgeon since he could be a product of affirmative action. Never mind the fact he need to have passed every exam much like everyone else.

[TeyshaBlue]

I especially like the qualifier "most smart people". Because, if your default reflex is that Black Doc might have been the recipient of some kind of affirmative action aid, he's automatically suspect by way of the presumptive "you can't really know". Fucking ludicrous.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol I love this thread. I actually had forgotten that Viva stuck RAM in a motherboard backwards. How in the fuck man?!?

[Blake]

bumpity bump

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


For comparison, since you're now denying it:

for most people, that amount of pwnage would be too much to handle.

somehow, I think it won't be a big deal in Wild Cobra's universe........err space.

[Wild Cobra]

My God...

Do you all know what the definition of "if" is?

[ElNono]

Do you all know what the definition of "if" is?

Really??? :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

Really??? :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
Absolutely.

I said "If...."

Now if you want to misconstrue my intent, that's either your stupidity, or you letting your hatred of me getting the better of you.

[ElNono]

You said "if he was a product of affirmative action". I don't know that's there's any possible misrepresentation there. Heck, I'll say it's clear as a day.

[Wild Cobra]

You said "if he was a product of affirmative action". I don't know that's there's any possible misrepresentation there. Heck, I'll say it's clear as a day.
So...

How does "if he was a product of affirmative action" the same as saying "Like black surgeons who obviously can only make it that far due to affirmative action?"

Please show me where I said blacks cannot make such strides in life without affirmative action.

[Wild Cobra]

I especially like the qualifier "most smart people". Because, if your default reflex is that Black Doc might have been the recipient of some kind of affirmative action aid, he's automatically suspect by way of the presumptive "you can't really know". Fucking ludicrous.
I will agree I hyped that one a bit.

[Wild Cobra]

You said "if he was a product of affirmative action". I don't know that's there's any possible misrepresentation there. Heck, I'll say it's clear as a day.
Well, are you implying all educated blacks are a product of affirmative action? I hope not. I never would.

[ElNono]

Well, are you implying all educated blacks are a product of affirmative action? I hope not. I never would.

How would you know who is or isn't a product of affirmative action. I thought "smart people avoid black surgeons".

Why does it matter if somebody is a product of affirmative action?

[Wild Cobra]

How would you know who is or isn't a product of affirmative action. I thought "smart people avoid black surgeons".
I never claimed to know how.

Why does it matter if somebody is a product of affirmative action?
If you are looking for quality, someone who is there because of a quota system rather than by merit is probably not as good of quality.

Why isn't this obvious to you?

[diego]

:lol I love this thread. I actually had forgotten that Viva stuck RAM in a motherboard backwards. How in the fuck man?!?

there was a lame dimm-o-crap retort a few posts after that that made the RAM story even better :lol



as for the saga, I don't at all mean to defend WC, but I have a different understanding of prejudice. Recognizing a pattern and using it to interpret a situation is a natural, rational act. The problem comes in where and how people look for patterns, and on top of that there are people dedicated to controlling this process for their benefit. WC made a pathetic generalization but I dont think its healthy or plausible to be "free of prejudice". Certainly its a process that should be discussed and analysed and constantly reassessed, so that they may be refined- there is no genetic or even cultural argument to suggest that a black surgeons are inferior to white ones, in fact there are important contributions to modern medicine from blacks (as well as every other race or culture, just as from 1st and 3rd world countries). But there are other sorts of generalizations and prejudices that are necessary and useful- for an easy example, a mistrust of absolute power. evolve WC, evolve.

ps: how do you feel about black soldiers WC, can you trust the nation and your entire family's well being to black soldiers and generals? :corn:

[ElNono]

If you are looking for quality, someone who is there because of a quota system rather than by merit is probably not as good of quality.

They have to go through the career just like everybody else. They get the same exact quality of education.

I mean, the 'merit' in the context you bring this about could be connected to a plethora of different reasons that might have nothing to do with the inherent quality/capability of the individual. IE: Socioeconomic differences such as a poorer kid that had to work to pay for his education vs a kid that could spend more time studying because daddy took care of the bills.

Where's the 'merit' in that? It's not inconceivable that the working kid could be as good or even better student if he would have had the ability to devote all his time to studying.


Why isn't this obvious to you?

It's clear as a day to me why there's equal opportunity programs like affirmative action. In the real world (not the vacuum you pretend we live on), they make a lot of sense.

[jacobdrj]

Obama is experienced as any of the other recent presidents. IYRC, Reagan, Clinton and piece of shit Dubya were all governors before becoming president. The only exception in terms of longevity in DC being Bush 1- a creature of Nixon if you choose to count that as "good" experience. I don't see how being a governor from Texas, California or Arkansas makes one any more experienced for the presidency than being a Senator from Illinois. Especially since, as a Senator, Obama's dealt with national and international issues as opposed to local & state concerns only. So yeah, in a big way, fuck the "inexperienced" rap when it comes to Obama.

IMHO Senators and Congressmen are far more qualified than governors. However, Obama was a junior senator. Had it been his 2nd term, at least, I would have been FAR more comfortable with him, as I believe that is the best experience you can get, other than perhaps being a VP or ambassador...

[Slomo]

Sorry the Slovenian proxy server has been down for the last two days so I couldn't post sooner.

But I want to say one thing to the ST people. I want you to listen to me, I'm going to say this again. I did not post an opinion under that user name...

Chumpdumper.

I never told anybody to lie. Not a single time. Never. These allegation are false. And I need to go back to work for Kori.

[RandomGuy]

Sorry the Slovenian proxy server has been down for the last two days so I couldn't post sooner.

But I want to say one thing to the ST people. I want you to listen to me, I'm going to say this again. I did not post an opinion under that user name...

Chumpdumper.

I never told anybody to lie. Not a single time. Never. These allegation are false. And I need to go back to work for Kori.

?? Must have missed something.

I thought something was wrong when you didn't opine on Mladic's arrest.

[ChumpDumper]

I've been accused of a lot of things in my life, but being Slovenian?

What's next?

Greek?

[Spurminator]

Did that disproportionately black cabinet ever come to fruition?

[GoodOdor]

WC is pretty damn racist.

[Slomo]

I've been accused of a lot of things in my life, but being Slovenian?

What's next?

Greek?

The first is a compliment, the second clearly an insult.

[RandomGuy]

The first is a compliment, the second clearly an insult.

I'm pretty sure the word "Slovenia" is one of the worst profanities in the galaxy.










or maybe that was "Belgium", I can't remember...

(reference Douglas Adams' wonderful books)

[scott]

Wild Cobra Doctorine: Black Until Proven Intelligent

[Wild Cobra]

You guys have fun continuing this thread. Keep making yourselves look like fools. I see the public education system has instilled incorrect meanings of racism. I cannot battle that. It just reinforces my words that the schools are failing the USA.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lol I love this thread. I actually had forgotten that Viva stuck RAM in a motherboard backwards. How in the fuck man?!?

Let's say I was quantitatively easing it in.

[TeyshaBlue]

It just reinforces my words that the schools are failing the USA.

The continual pounding you give the English language is ample proof of that.

[coyotes_geek]

You guys have fun continuing this thread. Keep making yourselves look like fools. I see the public education system has instilled incorrect meanings of racism. I cannot battle that. It just reinforces my words that the schools are failing the USA.

We can only hope that one day our schools are capable of providing the quality of education that guides it's graduates towards avoiding black doctors like most smart people do...............

[RandomGuy]

Let's say I was quantitatively easing it in.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?








(resists urge to do a "your momma/girlfriend" riff on that one)

[DeadlyDynasty]

I love how FWD diplomatically dissected WC and co.'s rants with a "Fuck you" smile on his face.

He almost single-handedly turned a shitty thread to gold. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

The continual pounding you give the English language is ample proof of that.
LOL...

I remember some time back, more than once, acknowledging that English was my worse subject in school. That was my bad, not the schools.

[Blake]

You guys have fun continuing this thread. Keep making yourselves look like fools. I see the public education system has instilled incorrect meanings of racism. I cannot battle that. It just reinforces my words that the schools are failing the USA.


LOL...

I remember some time back, more than once, acknowledging that English was my worse subject in school. That was my bad, not the schools.

god damn dude, pick a lane.

hilarious. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[ElNono]

I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

For the nth time, can you tell us what you really meant by that, in context?

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

For the nth time, can you tell us what you really meant by that, in context?

:lmao
Again, do you understand the context in using the word "IF?"

I can't be responsible for your lack of understanding.

[ElNono]

Again, do you understand the context in using the word "IF?"
I can't be responsible for your lack of understanding.

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons.

Can you point the word "if" in there? I can't find it.

[Wild Cobra]

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons.

Can you point the word "if" in there? I can't find it.


Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action?

[ElNono]

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons

I still don't find the "if" in there. That's a pretty bold post in context.

Are you one of those 'smart people'?

[Wild Cobra]

I still don't find the "if" in there. That's a pretty bold post in context.

Are you one of those 'smart people'?
Stop the cherry picking. I pointed it out.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action?
That sentence is the sentence before the one you want to use, and part of the context.

Give it up. You are incorrectly assigning my intent. Must be grandiose to think you are as omnipotent as a god, and know my intent more than I do.

[ElNono]

Stop the cherry picking. I pointed it out.

That sentence is the sentence before the one you want to use, and part of the context.

Give it up. You are incorrectly assigning my intent. Must be grandiose to think you are as omnipotent as a god, and know my intent more than I do.

That makes no sense. You made your intent patently clear with your sentence:

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons

You also have a complete lack of understanding on how quotas and qualifications to be a professional work. Which is the reason you still look like a dumbass trying to defend your untenable position.

[Wild Cobra]

That makes no sense. You made your intent patently clear with your sentence:

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons

You also have a complete lack of understanding on how quotas and qualifications to be a professional work. Which is the reason you still look like a dumbass trying to defend your untenable position.
Look asshole.

I have explained several times my intent.

If you choose to interpret it outside of my intent, that's our problem. Not mine.

Either believe me or not. That's your loss, not mine.

I find it very disturbing that you have to focus on insisting you know my intent more than I do. You must have a real pathetic life.

[ElNono]

I have explained several times my intent.

Also known as 'backpedaling'. Your sentence leaves nothing to the imagination though. Perhaps you need to think more before posting that kind of garbage, so you don't have to go out of your way explaining what your 'intent' really was.

lol smart people

[Wild Cobra]

Also known as 'backpedaling'. Your sentence leaves nothing to the imagination though. Perhaps you need to think more before posting that kind of garbage, so you don't have to go out of your way explaining what your 'intent' really was.

lol smart people
Believe as you wish.

Again, I have explained my intent several times. It's not my problem you cannot remember, or purposely slander my words. It is your lack of integrity that you continue to prove. I may use a poor choice of words at times, but once explained... you only prove yourself to be of questionable morals, to keep harping on it.

[ElNono]

Again, I have explained my intent several times.

There's nothing to explain, 'intent' wise. What you might want to explain is how did you delude yourself into thinking that's not out and out racism.
Then again, you should probably have that conversation with your therapist.

[Wild Cobra]

There's nothing to explain, 'intent' wise. What you might want to explain is how did you delude yourself into thinking that's not out and out racism.
Then again, you should probably have that conversation with your therapist.
The racist is the one who believe a black person is inferior. I know better. I contend it is those who believe the black people need a quota system are the racists, since they don't believe blacks can compete on a level playing field.

[ElNono]

The racist is the one who believe a black person is inferior. I know better. I contend it is those who believe the black people need a quota system are the racists, since they don't believe blacks can compete on a level playing field.

Racism doesn't have to do only with black people. That you think it does is pretty telling. You should look up in the dictionary what racism means. When you need examples, you should review some of your posts in this thread.

[Wild Cobra]

Racism doesn't have to do only with black people. That you think it does is pretty telling. You should look up in the dictionary what racism means. When you need examples, you should review some of your posts in this thread.
Without looking it up, racism is the belief that one race is superior to another. You are right, it doesn't have to be only against one particular race.

Why do people believe blacks need a quota system to compete, if they aren't racists?

[CuckingFunt]

The racist is the one who believe a black person is inferior. I know better. I contend it is those who believe the black people need a quota system are the racists, since they don't believe blacks can compete on a level playing field.

Proponents of Affirmative Action don't believe that women and people of color are unable to compete on a level playing field. They believe that the playing field isn't level for women and people of color.

[clambake]

white people are accepted through legacy all the time.

should they be trusted?

[Wild Cobra]

Proponents of Affirmative Action don't believe that women and people of color are unable to compete on a level playing field. They believe that the playing field isn't level for women and people of color.
Times have changed. There are still some biased decision made that people will find improper, but that is the exception. Not the norm.

[ElNono]

Without looking it up, racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.

You should look it up. You still don't know what it means. :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

You should look it up. You still don't know what it means. :lmao

Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

racism

Pronunciation:/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
[mass noun]

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:a programme to combat racism

[ElNono]

Let me add an example:

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons

[Wild Cobra]

Let me add an example:

Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons
LOL...

You are a broken record.

[MannyIsGod]

Unfortunately for WC almost everyone in here understands English. Its very clear what you said so I'm not sure why you continue to try to spin it.

[xrayzebra]

Well how can I put this. Obama was elected and Thomas was selected and I
strongly feel that when Obama is collecting his pension and getting his retirement
security at our expense, Clarence Thomas will still be up there on the bench making
his decisions and making Obama look like the fool he is.

Now you all have a good night.

That is if the United States still has any money to pay wages to anyone.

[boutons_deux]

"Clarence Thomas will still be up there on the bench making
his decisions"

If the Dems had any balls, they'd at least impeach the corrupt, unethical Thomas, at least to embarrass (although the man is without shame).

[ChumpDumper]

Well how can I put this. Obama was elected and Thomas was selected and I
strongly feel that when Obama is collecting his pension and getting his retirement
security at our expense, Clarence Thomas will still be up there on the bench making
his decisions and making Obama look like the fool he is.

Now you all have a good night.

That is if the United States still has any money to pay wages to anyone.Thomas will still be terrible and ethically void for years to come.