American gymnast screwed out of a gold medal, China is beneficiary

[CubanMustGo]

Stop me if any of this sounds familiar ...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/2008/writers/em_swift/08/18/judging.controversy/index.html?eref=T1

Questionable scoring, tiebreaker cost Liukin individual gold medal

BEIJING -- Finally, a judging controversy. Not that the gymnastics judging in Beijing has been beyond reproach -- China's Cheng Fei won a bronze medal last night in the vault despite landing once on her knees -- but Monday's uneven bars scoring, which kept Nastia Liukin from winning, or at least sharing, a second gold medal, finally brought attention to the peculiarities of a FIG judging system that is desperately in need of an overhaul.

Here's what happened: China's diminutive He Kexin (that would be the 13-year old for those not keeping track) started the bars competition with a risk-filled, six-release routine that was scored 16.725. She had a small step upon landing, and the difficulty of her routine was judged to be 7.7. Her execution score was 9.025.

Next up was Liukin. Fresh off her all-around gold medal and her floor exercise bronze, she was brimming with confidence as she approached her favorite event. (The 16.90 she scored in bars in the women's team finals was the highest score awarded in these Games.) She, too, had a 7.7 start value, and executed five release moves, having a little trouble in one, her pac salto, in which she goes from the high to the low bar executing a flip. Her landing, though, was perfect -- the first time this entire season she's stuck it. Her score: 16.725. Her execution score: 9.025. Same as He's numbers.

Yet, when the tally was flashed on the scoreboard, He was placed first, Liukin second. That's all Liukin noticed initially. Two more gymnasts had finished their routines before Nastia began to study the numbers. She studied them some more. She'd only had five hours sleep the night before -- she's too excited about the prospect of going home as the Olympic all-around champion to sleep -- so she was mentally fried. But pretty soon she nudged her father and coach, Valeri, and pointed out what most of those in the arena already knew: she had the same exact score as He, so why was He listed first?

Valeri didn't know. Very few people in the gymnastics community knew, including ex-Olympians providing expert commentary to listeners and viewers around the world. But as it turned out, the computers had to go to a third tiebreak before determining the winner.

First tiebreak is the start value. Identical.

Second tiebreak is the deductions taken by the middle four judges. That was also the same.

The third tiebreak -- hang onto your hats, for your brains are about to explode --was the average of the three lowest of the four counting judges' deductions. This is where Liukin lost.

Trust me on this: It's a goofy solution. The final tally was arrived at by using the Polish, New Zealand and Brazilian judges' deductions for He, and the Australian, New Zealand and Bulgarian's deductions for Liukin. The Australian judge, Helen Colagiuri, must have been watching another competition. She scored He's execution three-tenths of a point higher than Liukin's, despite the step He took on her dismount. None of the other five judges scored He's execution higher than a tenth above Liukin, and two of the judges -- from Poland and Bulgaria -- had Liukin's execution score two-tenths higher than He's.

In other words, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Either that, or there's some big time politics involved. Either way, the judging in gymnastics at these Olympics has been wildly erratic at best.

None of which was going to ruin Liukin's night. "I know I didn't have my best routine, but I had the same exact score as she did, which makes it a little harder to take," she said. "I still don't understand how they broke the tie, but that's the rules, and you just have to play by them. If it had happened in the all around, I would have been a lot more disappointed."

Liukin was also asked if the fact that He was one of the gymnasts suspected of being underage -- in May she was identified in a Chinese newspaper as being just 13 -- made the silver medal harder to swallow. But she wouldn't bite. "She's an excellent athlete no matter how old she is," she said.

Next up for Liukin is Tuesday night's balance beam event, in which she'll try to beat her father's total of four medals in an Olympics. Valeri had two golds and two silvers in 1988; Nastia has a gold, two silvers and a bronze in Beijing. Interestingly, one of Valeri's golds was won on the horizontal bar, in which he scored 19.90, exactly the same as his teammate Vladimir Artyomov. They shared the gold.

Too bad such a sensible solution wasn't applied in the case of his daughter.

[MiamiHeat]

the Chinese also said the little girl who sung the song at the opening ceremony was too ugly to be on TV, so they got a pretty one and made her lip-sync.

they also added computer graphic effects to the opening ceremony to create some of the fireworks for TV audiences

[v2freak]

Who is surprised by this? Seriously? Possible underage gymnists, revoking of visas of good people, human rights violations, "must win no matter the cost" mentality. Did I leave anything out?

On a side note, anyone see that story NBC did on the girl that used to be a Chinese Olympian, but now lives off 30 dollars a month because she got Diabetes?

[IceColdBrewski]

This is why I've pretty much given up on any olympic sport that uses judges to decide the outcome. It's bad enough that you have to worry about human error and judges taking payoffs. Throw in a little bit of anti American bias, and it's amazing that they manage to walk away with any medals at all.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the Chinese also said the little girl who sung the song at the opening ceremony was too ugly to be on TV, so they got a pretty one and made her lip-sync.

they also added computer graphic effects to the opening ceremony to create some of the fireworks for TV audiences

if you look at there athletes or population you can see that there are more fugly kents compared to that little girl who got turned down, so why the double standards i might say:nope

[FirebatMIV]

The tie breaking rules are stupid, I don't see why Gymnastics don't just award 2 golds for ties like every other sports do.

That said, your conspiracy bullshit is becoming tiring. You'd think after Paul Hamm was handed a gold medal by the judges in 2004 that people would realize that Gymnastics judging fuckups aren't just an anti-American thing, but a whole world thing.

[v2freak]

I just saw coverage of the event. Liukin composed herself well despite all the BS. The kicker is the possibility that her opponent shouldn't even be competing.

The judge who messed up was Australian. I'm not sure if there was a secret agenda, but the commentator is correct: some of the judges are incompetent and placed in a position to make important decisions if only because of an arbitrary set of rules.

I loved when they put up the comparison of numbers and randomly deducted points on both sides until the math favored one side. Kickass :tu

[Cry Havoc]

The tie breaking rules are stupid, I don't see why Gymnastics don't just award 2 golds for ties like every other sports do.

That said, your conspiracy bullshit is becoming tiring. You'd think after Paul Hamm was handed a gold medal by the judges in 2004 that people would realize that Gymnastics judging fuckups aren't just an anti-American thing, but a whole world thing.

The fact that the host country has benefited on several occasions in gymnastics in which the United States is their primary competitor makes it pretty damn obvious that the judges are doing everything they can to tip the scales against the two best gymnasts in the world.

When the (normally impartial) announcers are coming unglued over some of the ridiculous calls that ALWAYS go in China's favor, it's obvious. It took absolutely obvious falls in the all around to drop the Chinese women out of the running -- and even then, landing on her SHINS wasn't enough to take one of them off the podium.

[FirebatMIV]

The fact that the host country has benefited on several occasions in gymnastics in which the United States is their primary competitor makes it pretty damn obvious that the judges are doing everything they can to tip the scales against the two best gymnasts in the world.

When the (normally impartial) announcers are coming unglued over some of the ridiculous calls that ALWAYS go in China's favor, it's obvious. It took absolutely obvious falls in the all around to drop the Chinese women out of the running -- and even then, landing on her SHINS wasn't enough to take one of them off the podium.

Bullshit, Johnson and Liukin are fantastic all-around gymnasts, but these are individual events. Liukin was expected to compete with He during these event finals. The fact that the two were so close is a reflection on how good both competitors were. I honestly would like to know how you think they "tip the scales" when judges of the competing countries are not part of the panel. This whole "the world is out to get us" schtick is tiresome.

It's amazing anyone calls Tim Dagget impartial when he's questioned both the Floor exercise and the Rings results. Are the Romanians in on it too?

[v2freak]

It's amazing that you apparently think only a judge from China could influence the outcome in China's favor.

[Cry Havoc]

Bullshit, Johnson and Liukin are fantastic all-around gymnasts, but these are individual events. Liukin was expected to compete with He during these event finals. The fact that the two were so close is a reflection on how good both competitors were. I honestly would like to know how you think they "tip the scales" when judges of the competing countries are not part of the panel. This whole "the world is out to get us" schtick is tiresome.

It's amazing anyone calls Tim Dagget impartial when he's questioned both the Floor exercise and the Rings results. Are the Romanians in on it too?

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Did you WATCH the gymnastics this year?

Fine. YOU explain to me how a Chinese gymnast takes off from the vault with her hands at different levels (.8 deduction), has at least two form breaks in the air (legs split, piked in the air, .1 to .3 deduction each) lands ON HER KNEES because she doesn't complete the rotation (MINIMUM .8 deduction) and she is awarded a 9.0+ for execution score.

I have watched gymnastics for over a decade. I can watch routines and name nearly every skill as they happen. I'm not some ass who just wants to banter about how we got ripped off. To that extent, Sandra Izbasa, who won the floor exercise deserved it over both Nastia and Shawn.

However, please explain the vault event. Please explain the Chinese gymnast falling off the beam in the team all-around and still getting a higher score (9.0+ execution) than a gymnast who had a total of 4 form breaks.

[lebomb]

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Did you WATCH the gymnastics this year?

Fine. YOU explain to me how a Chinese gymnast takes off from the vault with her hands at different levels (.8 deduction), has at least two form breaks in the air (legs split, piked in the air, .1 to .3 deduction each) lands ON HER KNEES because she doesn't complete the rotation (MINIMUM .8 deduction) and she is awarded a 9.0+ for execution score.

I have watched gymnastics for over a decade. I can watch routines and name nearly every skill as they happen. I'm not some ass who just wants to banter about how we got ripped off. To that extent, Sandra Izbasa, who won the floor exercise deserved it over both Nastia and Shawn.

However, please explain the vault event. Please explain the Chinese gymnast falling off the beam in the team all-around and still getting a higher score (9.0+ execution) than a gymnast who had a total of 4 form breaks.



LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! PWNT!! :lmao

[cool hand]

I see the 9year old got the gold.

[Evan]

I see the 9year old got the gold.

whats being done about that?

[Cry Havoc]

whats being done about that?

Not as much as there could be. The USOC is not formally protesting the gymnastics, because they are showing a thing called class. The IOC should launch an investigation, but as it would cause a stink with the host nation, they are declining to do so.

[LEONARD]

Shouldn't have come down to a tie breaker last night...robbed again...

I hate sports that are determined only by judging...


You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Did you WATCH the gymnastics this year?

Fine. YOU explain to me how a Chinese gymnast takes off from the vault with her hands at different levels (.8 deduction), has at least two form breaks in the air (legs split, piked in the air, .1 to .3 deduction each) lands ON HER KNEES because she doesn't complete the rotation (MINIMUM .8 deduction) and she is awarded a 9.0+ for execution score.

I have watched gymnastics for over a decade. I can watch routines and name nearly every skill as they happen. I'm not some ass who just wants to banter about how we got ripped off. To that extent, Sandra Izbasa, who won the floor exercise deserved it over both Nastia and Shawn.

However, please explain the vault event. Please explain the Chinese gymnast falling off the beam in the team all-around and still getting a higher score (9.0+ execution) than a gymnast who had a total of 4 form breaks.

FirebatMIV = torched :lol:lol:lol:lol

[Evan]

Not as much as there could be. The USOC is not formally protesting the gymnastics, because they are showing a thing called class. The IOC should launch an investigation, but as it would cause a stink with the host nation, they are declining to do so.

That actually makes sense.

Perhaps they will pick this up in a year or two?

[Cry Havoc]

That actually makes sense.

Perhaps they will pick this up in a year or two?

Eh, this is one of those "grey areas" that are just going to have to wait and see on.

Technically, the gymnasts of China are whatever age is listed on their passports -- which is 16. It would take a number of things to happen for the IOC to do anything about this. They don't even have to act on a protest from the USOC. They can basically tell them to buzz off.

The problem they face is this: If they suddenly decide to investigate the matter of the Chinese gymnasts, they are going to infuriate China, regardless of whether or not they are 16. If they ARE 16, the Chinese have legitimate reason to be outraged. But let's be honest here, those girls look all of 14, if that.

It's potentially worse if they actually find something. Because then not only do they have to deal with the tarnish of one of it's premier sports (womens' gymnastics are among the highest rated events at the games), you then have to decide whether or not it's a disqualifying offense. Strip the gold from the Chinese, and you would see mass protests, boycotting, and demands from the PRoC to test every single American athlete who stands above China on an Olympic podium. This would cost the IOC dearly, both to investigate, and in potential revenue lost from outraged Chinese viewership (this would hurt more in the 2012 games rather than now).

And if you don't pull the medals, you essentially have every other competing country now rightly pissed off (USA, Romania, Russia, Japan), basically any country that was affected by the Chinese and their routines would have reason to openly protest the results.

To add to this, the longer the IOC waits, the longer China has to cover up any potential evidence of tampering.

----

I'm not even as upset about the gold medal in the team all-around. The US women were not on form that night, and even Shawn and Nastia hit a couple of off-beats. My beef is with inflating Chinese scores.

If you actually go back and watch the tape of the gymnastics (this is for you, Firebat), you'll notice that during the individual all-around, the head-supervisor for the Gymnastics Committee of the IOC walked directly up to the judges and told them to lower one Chinese score, and raise one Russian score. She also said something very pointed and direct after one of the American routines (I believe it was after Shawn Johnson's excellent beam routine). Normally when a supervising official makes a trip over to the judges stand, she is either A) requested for a scoring clarification on a replay or B) being consulted for start value. It is rare (and this was noted by the commentators) for her to speak so quickly and directly to the judging panel. Afterward both Shawn and Nastia were rewarded with scores that contained no obvious major deductions, and strangely enough went on to win 1-2 in the All-Around. Shawn won (the silver) by .15 points. One has to wonder if the supervisor said nothing, that Shawn would have been saddled with the Bronze medal after having 4 great routines with no obvious flaws in them.

Again, Firebat, if you'd care to explain, I'd listen.

[Evan]

Thanks CH....I picked up a lot from your posts.

[FirebatMIV]

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Did you WATCH the gymnastics this year?

Fine. YOU explain to me how a Chinese gymnast takes off from the vault with her hands at different levels (.8 deduction), has at least two form breaks in the air (legs split, piked in the air, .1 to .3 deduction each) lands ON HER KNEES because she doesn't complete the rotation (MINIMUM .8 deduction) and she is awarded a 9.0+ for execution score.

I have watched gymnastics for over a decade. I can watch routines and name nearly every skill as they happen. I'm not some ass who just wants to banter about how we got ripped off. To that extent, Sandra Izbasa, who won the floor exercise deserved it over both Nastia and Shawn.

However, please explain the vault event. Please explain the Chinese gymnast falling off the beam in the team all-around and still getting a higher score (9.0+ execution) than a gymnast who had a total of 4 form breaks.


Nobody ever said the judging was fantastic. The rules and the judging in Gymnastics has always been controversial and pretty much terrible. It was that way in 2000, 2004 and now in 2008. The complaint I have is this false belief that judging errors is slanted against one team or for one nation over another. Cheng Fei's vault was poorly scored, and she probably should have gotten a 8 or so on execution. That isn't the first nor will it be the last time it happens.

I think there are three main problems with the judging right now:

1. They're subjected to the atmosphere of the stadium.

In football, the replay officials are staffed in a largely sound-proof box so that they can't be altered by the crowd. It'd probably largely eliminate the home-field advantage that occurs during every Olympics.

2. The new scoring system is unfairly weighted towards difficulty

I think, after watching these games, it's become obvious that judges award difficulty levels in a dual benefits sort of way. Not only do higher DD values result in higher scores, but also in more relaxed judging when it comes to big time mistakes. It's the same with all countries, with high DD levels resulting in generally lower deductions for big mistakes (like when Liukin and He both fell during their uneven bars routine in the prelims and still got pretty high execution values. Same with when Artemev fell from the Pummelhorse and still got a good execution value). I'm not sure how to correct this, but it's one of the main problems right now.

3. There is too much pressure to submit a quick final score

I think the competition would be last dramatic if we didn't know "who needed to have what to win," but this need for a quick score obviously led to some poor, poor decision making when it came to execution scores. They have full replay, but they don't seem to want to use it very much, especially after coaches have complained that the long lag time froze their competitors.


If you've been watching gymnastics for over a decade you'd know that stupid non-deductions and judging errors happen all the time. I just find it stupid that people selectively complain about scores only when their country is perceived to be slighted. If anything, the one with the most to complain about in the uneven bars final is Yang Yilin, whose DD score was as high as the other two and had less mistakes than Nastia and He Kexin (to the level that both He and Nastia admitted that they thought she should be scored higher).

At the point where one judge consistently screws up (the Australian judge gave Yang something like a 8.5 on her execution), I think the question we need to be asking is not whether or not there's an inherent anti-American bias in gymnastics, but how we can improve a subjective judging method. Who knows, I haven't been here very long, maybe you also bitched and moaned when Paul Hamm got the gold in Athens and then refused to give it back when the IOC stated that it would be in the interest of fairplay if he did give it to the deserving winner. If you did, I'm sorry of accusing you of bias. What I am amazed at, however, is those people who absolutely accept the judgment of judges until their country is on the losing end.

[FirebatMIV]

Eh, this is one of those "grey areas" that are just going to have to wait and see on.

Technically, the gymnasts of China are whatever age is listed on their passports -- which is 16. It would take a number of things to happen for the IOC to do anything about this. They don't even have to act on a protest from the USOC. They can basically tell them to buzz off.

The problem they face is this: If they suddenly decide to investigate the matter of the Chinese gymnasts, they are going to infuriate China, regardless of whether or not they are 16. If they ARE 16, the Chinese have legitimate reason to be outraged. But let's be honest here, those girls look all of 14, if that.

It's potentially worse if they actually find something. Because then not only do they have to deal with the tarnish of one of it's premier sports (womens' gymnastics are among the highest rated events at the games), you then have to decide whether or not it's a disqualifying offense. Strip the gold from the Chinese, and you would see mass protests, boycotting, and demands from the PRoC to test every single American athlete who stands above China on an Olympic podium. This would cost the IOC dearly, both to investigate, and in potential revenue lost from outraged Chinese viewership (this would hurt more in the 2012 games rather than now).

And if you don't pull the medals, you essentially have every other competing country now rightly pissed off (USA, Romania, Russia, Japan), basically any country that was affected by the Chinese and their routines would have reason to openly protest the results.

To add to this, the longer the IOC waits, the longer China has to cover up any potential evidence of tampering.

----

I'm not even as upset about the gold medal in the team all-around. The US women were not on form that night, and even Shawn and Nastia hit a couple of off-beats. My beef is with inflating Chinese scores.

If you actually go back and watch the tape of the gymnastics (this is for you, Firebat), you'll notice that during the individual all-around, the head-supervisor for the Gymnastics Committee of the IOC walked directly up to the judges and told them to lower one Chinese score, and raise one Russian score. She also said something very pointed and direct after one of the American routines (I believe it was after Shawn Johnson's excellent beam routine). Normally when a supervising official makes a trip over to the judges stand, she is either A) requested for a scoring clarification on a replay or B) being consulted for start value. It is rare (and this was noted by the commentators) for her to speak so quickly and directly to the judging panel. Afterward both Shawn and Nastia were rewarded with scores that contained no obvious major deductions, and strangely enough went on to win 1-2 in the All-Around. Shawn won (the silver) by .15 points. One has to wonder if the supervisor said nothing, that Shawn would have been saddled with the Bronze medal after having 4 great routines with no obvious flaws in them.

Again, Firebat, if you'd care to explain, I'd listen.

A genuine question, I just went back to look at the NBC olympics video. Are you talking about the long pause between the Chinese routine and the Russian routine? NBC coverage just have the Romanian floor routine and then random shots of the three competitors. What was the time of the "judging conference?"

[manufor3]

Just give out 2 freakin' gold medals, even though the chinese are underage

[MiamiHeat]

this is what happens when you give the communists things

[v2freak]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/The-REAL-Olympic-medal-count?urn=oly,101537&post_comment=1&success=1

A blogger discusses some of the travesties as of late. Notice the responses of people who are justifying the very obvious lapses in judgement.

[angelbelow]

yikes