Spot Number 9 - Top 50 Spurs

[timvp]

SpursTalk's Top 50 Spurs
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Gregg Popovich
5. Angelo Drossos
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Tony Parker
8. Sean Elliott

------------------------------

To pass the time until the start of preseason, let's see how SpursTalk.com ranks the Top 50 Spurs. Those eligible for the list include all players, coaches and owners. I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

For more information on what we are doing, check out this thread (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103061).

In this thread, we will vote for spot number nine. Please place your vote. If you will, also explain in this thread why you voted how you did.

Thanks.



P.S.

Poll options listed in alphabetical order. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, post in the thread and I'll add the person.

Voting will end 2AM CST Monday morning. Please vote only once.

[samikeyp]

Captain Late!

[anakha]

After having to choose between Bowen and Elliott in the last poll, this one's a lot easier.

Bowen all the way.

[MannyIsGod]

Silas 9 - Bowen 10

[samikeyp]

Silas 9 - Bowen 10

That is what I think...although I don't think it will end up this way. I imagine most of the voters here aren't familar with Silas as they are with Bowen. Nothing wrong with that though.

[Brutalis]

Silas 9 - Bowen 10

Bowen 9 - Silas 10

:toast

[Texas_Ranger]

Bowen 9 - Silas 10

:toast

:tu

[timvp]

Here is my breakdown from yesterday:



Bowen has three championships and played a vital role in each title. He hasn't made an All-Star team but he has been named to the All-Defensive team in each of his seven seasons with the Spurs (including five consecutive first team selections). Obviously, he hasn't been much offensively but his clutchness in the playoffs (6 out of 7 playoffs he shot better than 40% from beyond the three-point line) shouldn't be forgotten. Overall, next to Kenon, Bowen might go down as the most underrated Spurs player of All-Time.

AJ is the franchise leader in assists. He was basically the player coach of the 1999 championship. He, along with David Robinson, are arguably the two most responsible for making the Spurs a no nonsense franchise in the mid-1990s. AJ was also the unquestioned leader of the Spurs for the better part of a decade. He wasn't a talented player but he played about as well as possible with the tools he was given.

Larry Kenon is probably the best player left and his numbers give him a very good case. He averaged 20 and 10 over five years with the Spurs while making three All-Star games. Problem was he not only left on bad terms, he didn't have much of an impact on the overall franchise outside of his great numbers.

Silas had a great season that was probably better than any season in Spurs history not authored by Gervin, Robinson or Duncan. That season earned him an All-ABA first team award. In the ABA days, Silas was as good or better than Gervin. He single-handedly won an amazing amount of games in his first couple years with the Spurs. The drawback with Silas is he was robbed of much of his prime due to injury.

I'm leaning a little bit toward Silas because of his All-ABA first team selection and the fact that he was a forefather who helped the team remain in existence. Bowen is also worthy. However, Bowen still (hopefully) has some gas in the tank to eventually move up so it wouldn't be a shame if he landed up 10 or 11.

[samikeyp]

I'm leaning a little bit toward Silas because of his All-ABA first team selection and the fact that he was a forefather who helped the team remain in existence. Bowen is also worthy. However, Bowen still (hopefully) has some gas in the tank to eventually move up so it wouldn't be a shame if he landed up 10 or 11.

:tu

[remingtonbo2001]

Silas 9 - Bowen 10

:tu

[Kona]

Bowen.

[xmas1997]

Si

[Drom John]

Another vote for Silas. And once again, the guy just selected, Elliott, is the guy I'd have for this spot. But then, I'm old enough to remember the Chapperrals.

BTW, I assume Chapperals are eligible for this best of the franchise.

I hope we are like the Twins who admit to being the continuation of the first Senators unlike the Rangers who deny the records of the second Senators.

[manufor3]

James Silas!!!

[exstatic]

BTW, I assume Chapperals are eligible for this best of the franchise.
I would say yes, but it would be Mondo sad if any made it into the top 50. There's a reason they were sold on the cheap: they sucked. The Spurs are second all time in NBA win %. I think we can fill 50 slots without resorting to Chaparrals, or at least those that didn't at some point become Spurs.

[urunobili]

damn i don;t get why Silas is getting more love than Bruce... he should be a top 10 for sure... :depressed

[SenorSpur]

damn i don;t get why Silas is getting more love than Bruce... he should be a top 10 for sure... :depressed

There should be no question about Silas' status as a top 10 Spurs of all-time. I really believe his talent, contributions and greatness are sorely overlooked in the annals of this franchise's history.

[Trainwreck2100]

Andrew Gaze

[DynastyBuilder]

I'm sorry I don't get why everyone is so over the moon about Bruce...

[polandprzem]

Brucee gets my vote

[exstatic]

damn i don;t get why Silas is getting more love than Bruce... he should be a top 10 for sure... :depressed

Since we didn't start at player #zero, that would leave one more spot in the Top 10 after today's vote.

The Spurs NBA franchise didn't begin ten or twelve years ago, it began it's NBA life in the 76-77 season. It's OK if you don't know the history, but it also means that you don't know enough to rate a player from that era against Bowen. I'm HUGE Bowen fan, but I voted for Si in this slot.

[century]

Bruce Bowen. He epitomizes the team. Bland and boring but hard working and professional. Loved by their own community but largely ignored by everyone else. Truly blue collar professional sports franchise.

[lurker23]

I would be tempted to go with Larry Kenon in this spot. His statistics in his Spurs years are very impressive, and he made a nice one-two punch with Gervin back in the day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kenonla01.html

However, so far, it looks like each day is going to become a run-off between two guys, and today it's Silas vs. Bowen. Given that choice, I have to go with Captain Late over Bruce. With all due respect to Bowen, of course. His defense and durability over the last few years in particular have been very impressive, and he deserves to be high on this list. However, Silas was incredible in the early days of the franchise, dating back to the Dallas Chaparrals, and he was the first player to have their number retired by the Spurs. :toast to Mr. Silas.

To sum up the beginning of this post, though, Kenon should not drop out of the top 15.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Silas, then Bowen, then Kenon, then AJ.

[Joe Schmoogins]

How many chips did Silas help win? Bowen? Yeah, Bowen deserves it.

[exstatic]

How many chips did Silas help win? Bowen? Yeah, Bowen deserves it.

Well, just run down the rosters of the championship years in order by rings won, then. In fact, go scratch Ice, since he has zero rings.

[Trainwreck2100]

Well, just run down the rosters of the championship years in order by rings won, then. In fact, go scratch Ice, since he has zero rings.
:tu
So then we can put Andrew Gaze up there now

[ShoogarBear]

And Mengke Bateer!

[lurker23]

James White!

[samikeyp]

How many chips did Silas help win? Bowen? Yeah, Bowen deserves it.

chips?

Its spelled "Championship" not "Championchip"

Besides, by that logic: Gerard King>George Gervin :bang

[rascal]

Larry Kenon should be even ahead of Elliott. He had the better overall stats. 20 point scorer and good rebounder 10+ per game with the spurs and shares the nba record for steals in a game. A solid player on both sides of the court unlike Bowen.

Kenon was also an important player on the team that entered the NBA. Had the spurs not had a great team during the merger they would not have made it into the NBA. Kenon was part of that.


Silas was great and a big part of the teams success during the merger but that only lasted a short time because of the injury.

Bowen should not even be on the list yet. You put a one dimensional player before all star level players like Kenon and Silas ? Too many here have never seen Silas or Kenon.

[DynastyBuilder]

^^^ +1

[Spurtacus]

Bowen has my vote again.

[rascal]

For those that don't remember.
The spurs had a great run of success before Duncan and Pop.
They may have never won a title but they were regarded as the most exciting team in the league and they always made the playoffs. Those early Spur teams were much more fun to watch than the current Spurs. The Hemisphere Arena was the loudest arena in the league. The Spurs were from the defunct ABA which was considered inferior by some in the media and NBA. The Spurs entered the NBA with something to prove, that they belonged.

The ABA was the wild high scoring league as compared to the NBA and the Spurs brought that type of play into the NBA.


The Hemisphere Arena was one of the toughest places to play because it was small and the crowd noise level would get so high. I often can remember listening to games on a radio and hearing the place going wild, so much that it was had to hear the play by play call at times.
The spurs up tempo high scoring teams would also get the fans going wild.

Those successful early years is what kept the franchise alive.

[samikeyp]

For those that don't remember.
The spurs had a great run of success before Duncan and Pop.
They may have never won a title but they were regarded as the most exciting team in the league and they always made the playoffs. Those early Spur teams were much more fun to watch than the current Spurs. The Hemisphere Arena was the loudest arena in the league. The Spurs were from the defunct ABA which was considered inferior by some in the media and NBA. The Spurs entered the NBA with something to prove, that they belonged.

The ABA was the wild high scoring league as compared to the NBA and the Spurs brought that type of play into the NBA.


The Hemisphere Arena was one of the toughest places to play because it was small and the crowd noise level would get so high. I often can remember listening to games on a radio and hearing the place going wild, so much that it was had to hear the play by play call at times.
The spurs up tempo high scoring teams would also get the fans going wild.

Those successful early years is what kept the franchise alive.

I never though I would say this....

I agree with rascal! :lol

Seriously though, great take.

[timvp]

Larry Kenon should be even ahead of Elliott. He had the better overall stats. 20 point scorer and good rebounder 10+ per game with the spurs and shares the nba record for steals in a game. A solid player on both sides of the court unlike Bowen.

Kenon was also an important player on the team that entered the NBA. Had the spurs not had a great team during the merger they would not have made it into the NBA. Kenon was part of that.


Silas was great and a big part of the teams success during the merger but that only lasted a short time because of the injury.

Bowen should not even be on the list yet. You put a one dimensional player before all star level players like Kenon and Silas ? Too many here have never seen Silas or Kenon.One thing that really hurts Kenon is the fact that the Spurs haven't retired his number. To expect Spurs fans to recognize him over players the Spurs themselves obviously hold in higher regard is pretty difficult.

Kenon probably has the best numbers outside of the top three players on this list but he's definitely a forgotten man ... who is even more forgotten because the Spurs didn't retire his number.

[polandprzem]

Like stats are the most important thing

So we have stats (LK) vs nonststs (BB)

Champion vs nonchampion

[50 cent]

Mario Elie should be ahead of Avery Johnson.

Mario set the tone for that '99 team winning a Championship.

[MannyIsGod]

Mario Elie should be ahead of Avery Johnson.

Mario set the tone for that '99 team winning a Championship.

I'm an AJ hater but this is madness, imo.

[exstatic]

Mario Elie should be ahead of Avery Johnson.

Mario set the tone for that '99 team winning a Championship.

Mario played one season for the Spurs and then mailed in one, which I will never forgive him for. Then he defected to Dallas to coach and fucked up our 3-peat.

Fuck Mario Elie. I'm sure he'll be top 20, but his azz won't get my vote.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I am disgusted by the fact that bruce bowen has not been picked yet

[timvp]

Since this one is close, I ran the IP check to make sure people are only voting once ... and Silas lost like five votes and Bowen lost a vote. Whoever is voting multiple times, please cease.

Thanks.

[Brutalis]

I am disgusted by the fact that bruce bowen has not been picked yet

Underrated a usual.

[SenorSpur]

One thing that really hurts Kenon is the fact that the Spurs haven't retired his number. To expect Spurs fans to recognize him over players the Spurs themselves obviously hold in higher regard is pretty difficult.

Kenon probably has the best numbers outside of the top three players on this list but he's definitely a forgotten man ... who is even more forgotten because the Spurs didn't retire his number.

All of which is a shame. Kenon WAS an all-star caliber PF for this franchise during the 4 years he played here. I'm not sure why he's such a forgotten man. And it looks as though the Spurs are not the only entity that has forgotten about Kenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Kenon

Though Memphis State, now the University of Memphis, has retired the numbers of other former basketball players, like Larry Finch, Keith Lee, and Anfernee Hardaway, Larry Kenon has never had his number retired. He arguably had the most successful pro career of any Memphis State basketball player.

[ShoogarBear]

Kenon had great stats, but he was actually a bit overrated. The guy wasn't particularly clutch, was arguably a worse defender than Gervin, and would pout when he felt he wasn't getting recognition--sort of an earlier personality of Shawn Marion. Added to the fact that he did very little to help the franchise off the court (although he still lives in SA), and I have no problems with him being a notch or two lower than his numbers would seem to indicate.

The one thing will say, he was the first 6'9" forward I ever saw who had carte blanche to bring the ball up the court. And in his era, he may have been in the top 5 fastest guys in the league at pushing the ball.

[timvp]

I'm leaning towards ordering the next few --> Silas, Bowen, AJ, Kenon.

[ShoogarBear]

That sounds right to me. Then the next tier will be Mike Mitchell, Artis Gilmore, Doug Moe, and Terry Cummings.

[timvp]

That sounds right to me. Then the next tier will be Mike Mitchell, Artis Gilmore, Doug Moe, and Terry Cummings.The wild cards will likely be RC Buford and the owners on the list. It'll be hard to place those four.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah, you're right. RC, Red, and Holt, too. +/- McDermott, but I think he's clearly below the others.

[whottt]

Kenon had great stats, but he was actually a bit overrated. The guy wasn't particularly clutch, was arguably a worse defender than Gervin, and would pout when he felt he wasn't getting recognition--sort of an earlier personality of Shawn Marion. Added to the fact that he did very little to help the franchise off the court (although he still lives in SA), and I have no problems with him being a notch or two lower than his numbers would seem to indicate.

The one thing will say, he was the first 6'9" forward I ever saw who had carte blanche to bring the ball up the court. And in his era, he may have been in the top 5 fastest guys in the league at pushing the ball.

How would you compare him to Mikan...or Naismith?

[ShoogarBear]

:lol

I've probably already mentioned the guy I knew who was ~95 years old (this was 20 years ago) who played basketball when they still actually had peach basket, and they had to poke to ball out after each make. He was about 6'3" in the 80s so probably lost 3-4 inches due to age. He kept talking about how modern basketball players were such wussies compared to when he played.

[whottt]

:lol

I've probably already mentioned the guy I knew who was ~95 years old (this was 20 years ago) who played basketball when they still actually had peach basket, and they had to poke to ball out after each make. He was about 6'3" in the 80s so probably lost 3-4 inches due to age. He kept talking about how modern basketball players were such wussies compared to when he played.



That is funny I have heard about the peach baskets but it's hard for me to visualize. It's weird because Volleyball was invented at almost the same spot basketwall was...I think they might have even used a basketball for the first volleyball game.


But that's not the wierdest thing...



The weirdest thing is that the inventor of our beloved basketball.....was a Soccer player. :depressed

[Brutalis]

All of which is a shame. Kenon WAS an all-star caliber PF for this franchise during the 4 years he played here. I'm not sure why he's such a forgotten man. And it looks as though the Spurs are not the only entity that has forgotten about Kenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Kenon

Though Memphis State, now the University of Memphis, has retired the numbers of other former basketball players, like Larry Finch, Keith Lee, and Anfernee Hardaway, Larry Kenon has never had his number retired. He arguably had the most successful pro career of any Memphis State basketball player.

If I could find MSU's email to the athletic department I would email them about it. I think we all should.

[Brutalis]

The weirdest thing is that the inventor of our beloved basketball.....was a Soccer player. :depressed

And Canadian.

[whottt]

And Canadian.


I hear this a lot...and it's false.



There was no such thing as a Candian citizen when Naismith was born...in fact there was no such thing as a Candian citizen when Naismith died.


Revisionism at it's finest...besides, the game was based on a Native American game...invented in the US, by a guy who was an American citizen before Canadian citizenship even existed, and who served in the United States military. American game...and Naismith was an American. He was never a Canadian citizen, in his entire life.

[timvp]

Besides, Canada is not a part of the North American continent.

:stirpot:

[timvp]

By a total of five votes, James Silas edges Bruce Bowen.

[Brutalis]

I hear this a lot...and it's false.



There was no such thing as a Candian citizen when Naismith was born...in fact there was no such thing as a Candian citizen when Naismith died.


Revisionism at it's finest...besides, the game was based on a Native American game...invented in the US, by a guy who was an American citizen before Canadian citizenship even existed, and who served in the United States military. American game...and Naismith was an American. He was never a Canadian citizen, in his entire life.

It was invented in that province though.

When I was in Canada, I attended some museum and they had a whole big thing about basketball and it being invented there.

[whottt]

It was invented in that province though.
False...



When I was in Canada, I attended some museum and they had a whole big thing about basketball and it being invented there.



Candaians are borderline commie...so they are always doing shit like that. It's not true though. That game they are talking about is nothing like basketball...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_on_a_Rock

[whottt]

Besides, Canada is not a part of the North American continent.

Many Canadians use to see Canada as being part of the Island Nation of England....Naismith was probably one of them.

[Brutalis]

Unless I get some proof I can't believe anything other than what I have seen in person.

[whottt]

Unless I get some proof

Ever try to dribble a rock?

[tonyisamazing]

wow what about players like alvin robertson and artis gilmore did ya'll forget about them?

[naico]

wow what about players like alvin robertson and artis gilmore did ya'll forget about them?

Kenon, Robertson, Bowen, Gilmore in that order.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

By a total of five votes, James Silas edges Bruce Bowen.

disgusting