Spot Number 10 - Top 50 Spurs

[timvp]

SpursTalk's Top 50 Spurs
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Gregg Popovich
5. Angelo Drossos
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Tony Parker
8. Sean Elliott
9. James Silas

------------------------------

To pass the time until the start of preseason, let's see how SpursTalk.com ranks the Top 50 Spurs. Those eligible for the list include all players, coaches and owners. I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

For more information on what we are doing, check out this thread (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103061).

In this thread, we will vote for spot number ten. Please place your vote. If you will, also explain in this thread why you voted how you did.

Thanks.



P.S.

Poll options listed in alphabetical order. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, post in the thread and I'll add the person.

Voting will end 2AM CST Tuesday morning.

Please vote only once.

[Brutalis]

Bruce Bowen rounds out the Spurs top 10 for sure.

[century]

Hank Cisneros

[manufor3]

bruce

[SenorSpur]

Definitely Bowen

[naico]

The underestimated Larry Kenon!

[rascal]

Bowen is just fortunate to play with Duncan. Put him on the spurs teams of the 70's and 80's and he rides the bench.

Would Bowen play before Kenon? No way, so Kenon gets my vote.

[urunobili]

Bruuuuuuuuuuuuce!

[Texas_Ranger]

Well I gues Bruce will win this one!!
GO BRUCE GO!

[rascal]

You put a proven 20+ point scorer and 10+ rebounder with good defense, high Steals numbers and a long sf on the spurs today and Bowen goes to the bench.

Kenon is better than Bowen

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree with the underestimation of Larry Kenon. Had Kenon played for the Spurs over the last 10 years, he'd be seen as a God in this forum; he played here in the late 70's and he's become the forgotten man in Spurs history.

[timvp]

While I do agree Kenon is underrated in Spurs lore, I do think it speaks volumes that his jersey isn't retired. It's hard for fans to give him more recognition than the actual franchise. Bowen's jersey is for sure to be retired. It doesn't appear as if Kenon's every will be retired.

That in itself makes voting for Bowen over Kenon not a bad vote. Stats wise, Kenon probably could have been fourth on this list. All things told, I expect him to go 11-15 with the main thing holding him back being the fact his jersey wasn't retired.

[2centsworth]

I voted Kenon too. The guys stats are awesome and rival the Iceman. Kenon on the Spurs right now would be the second best player on the team IMO. His Jersey not being retired has something to do with him converting to Islam. Plus, since Larry made peanuts in his playing days he made a point to try to forget his basketball past and focus on making money for his family. Larry has been outstanding.

[Capt Bringdown]

Kenon was a stud, but I gotta go with defensive anchor Bowen. Bowen's impact and legacy trumps Kenon's funky gamesmanship by a country mile.

Kenon played a big part though...

[Capt Bringdown]

It's hard for fans to give him more recognition than the actual franchise. Bowen's jersey is for sure to be retired. It doesn't appear as if Kenon's every will be retired.


My memory's shaky, but wasn't Kenon something of a locker room lawyer? I seem to recall he might have thought he was too good to be second fiddle to Ice.

[MrChug]

Kenon was awesome, but the things that Bruce has done to DIRECTLY contribute to the success of this dynasty is 2nd to none (or 10th to none...whatever). lol

[I Love Me Some Me]

No love for Junior?

[SenorSpur]

I voted Kenon too. The guys stats are awesome and rival the Iceman. Kenon on the Spurs right now would be the second best player on the team IMO. His Jersey not being retired has something to do with him converting to Islam. Plus, since Larry made peanuts in his playing days he made a point to try to forget his basketball past and focus on making money for his family. Larry has been outstanding.

Wow! I never knew Kenon converted over to Islam. Yet I don't see how that would or should factor into the recognition of his basketball accomplishents.

Last I heard, he was running a successful car dealership in San Antonio.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know anything about Kenon, but everyone else from the last three championships are on the list, and there's no denying Bruce's worth in those title runs. If there were any justice in this world he'd have a shelf full of DPOY trophies.

[baseline bum]

Bowen. Bruce transformed this team from one that got owned by every single shooting guard in this league to one of the best defensive teams in history.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's a close call for me. I think the fact that Kenon only played 5 years in San Antonio is a big reason that his jersey isn't retired; that and the fact that he chose to go to Chicago as a free agent. What's telling to me, however, is that in Kenon's 5 years in San Antonio, he made 3 All-Star games (1 ABA and 2 NBA). He was a 20-10 guy who shot almost 50% from the field while averaging a boatload of steals. But more than that, the image of Kenon streaking up the sideline on the break, ready to attack the basket is, along with Ice's finger rolls, one of the classic images of those early Spurs teams. You can point, certainly, to the fact that Bowen wears rings that Kenon doesn't have -- and I think Bowen's longevity (rolled into timvp's jersey retirement argument) is a factor in Bruce's favor -- but that '79 team came perilously close to reaching the Finals (damn you, John Vanak) and was in that spot at least in part because Kenon was exceptional during the 1979 playoffs (21.1 ppg, 11.4 rpg).

It's close -- and I'm undoubtedly a homer for the newer guys.

I think the best argument for Bowen, by the way, must include part of the idea about what makes Parker so important to Spurs history. With those two guys, it's not just about the rings they've accumulated. Bowen and Parker, to me, represent the attitude change from the soft-ish Spurs that got bullied by LA in 2001 to the mentally and physically tough Spurs of today. Before 2001, even with a sublime talent like Duncan, the Spurs were notorious for their inability to bounce back from deficits at playoff time; that all culminated, for me, in the '01 WCF in which the Spurs just simply rolled over. Add Parker and Bowen to the mix (and later Ginobili) and suddenly the Spurs had a quiet toughness that they'd never really had before. Before 2002, the Spurs had never won a series when losing Game 1 (0-16) and had never rallied from a deficit to win a series (0-19). Since that time, the Spurs lost Game 1 on 7 different occasions, but have come back to win 5 of those series. It's not entirely Bowen and Parker, but I think there's an intangible toughness that those guys have brought to the franchise and I think it's difficult to underestimate the importance of that to the history of the Spurs.

I voted for Kenon because I think he's the better player and because he played a huge role on some damned good Spurs teams from the early years, but I certainly can see the reasons that one might put Bowen ahead here.

[rascal]

While I do agree Kenon is underrated in Spurs lore, I do think it speaks volumes that his jersey isn't retired. It's hard for fans to give him more recognition than the actual franchise. Bowen's jersey is for sure to be retired. It doesn't appear as if Kenon's every will be retired.

That in itself makes voting for Bowen over Kenon not a bad vote. Stats wise, Kenon probably could have been fourth on this list. All things told, I expect him to go 11-15 with the main thing holding him back being the fact his jersey wasn't retired.

Unfortunately sometimes there is a lot of politics behind retired jerseys so I don't use that as any criteria at all. And what makes you think Bowen will get his jersy retired anyways?

[Kona]

Bowen.

[2centsworth]

Bowen. Bruce transformed this team from one that got owned by every single shooting guard in this league to one of the best defensive teams in history.

I love Bruce, but Sean defense compares favorably IMO. Sean was the original Kobe Stopper and also had the ability to stay in front of the quickest guards in the NBA. I remember Sean guarding Kevin Johnson when Kevin was eating all of our guards alive. Plus, Sean use to guard Rasheed Wallace too. With a healthy Sean there would be no Bruce.

One more thing, if Kenon played today he would be close to if not a max player.

[Spurminator]

I think it's a matter of defining who you think of as the top "Spurs"... The best players to put on a Spurs uniform, or is it more than that?


I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

On one hand Bowen's number of seasons with the team, his contributions to the success of the Spurs this decade and his status as a fan favorite make him a strong selection at #10. He has personified the dominant Spurs defense that has lead to three Championships, as well as the unselfish team-player attitude that has been so crucial to their success.

On the other hand, I think it's safe to say Kenon, Robertson, Gilmore and Mitchell were all better players... They were All Stars, and in Robertson's case had a similarly decorated Defensive career to Bowen. I think you can make a case for all of them ranking ahead of Bowen.

The only knock on these guys, I think, is tenure. Each of them was with the Spurs for only about half of his career (5 seasons each, except for Mitchell's 6). Meanwhile Bowen is beginning his 8th season with the Spurs and has played during the most successful era in franchise history.

[angel_luv]

Bruce is a top ten Spur in my opinion.

I would have voted for him earlier had I not missed polls # 8 & 9

[rascal]

Bruce is a top ten Spur in my opinion.

I would have voted for him earlier had I not missed polls # 8 & 9

Of course you would have. You don't remember any of the early spurs. The spurs began for you about 10 years ago.

[CubanMustGo]

Of course you would have. You don't remember any of the early spurs. The spurs began for you about 10 years ago.

Look dude, we know you don't want Bruce at #10. Give it a rest already.

And as someone who has followed SA since ABA days, Kenon was great but was never an integral part of a championship team. Without Bowen SA doesn't get to four Finals, let alone win them all.

If this was about "who are the Spurs with the greatest individual stats" you'd have a better point - but quoting the OP:


I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

Sad to say, Kenon had little to do with the Spurs' success.

[angel_luv]

Of course you would have. You don't remember any of the early spurs. The spurs began for you about 10 years ago.

Given my knowledge, I think I have voted well so far.

[Spurminator]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

[samikeyp]

And as someone who has followed SA since ABA days, Kenon was great but was never an integral part of a championship team. Without Bowen SA doesn't get to four Finals, let alone win them all.



Guess you weren't following too close....Bowen wasn't on the 99 team.
:)

Kenon was great and while I voted for him here....Bowen is not a bad choice either and is worthy of consideration.

[samikeyp]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

Much like Bowen, much of what Si did was not in the box score. His leadership, hustle and clutchness endeared him to fans and his teammates. Kenon had better stats but Silas was here longer and was more popular.

[anakha]

Of course you would have. You don't remember any of the early spurs. The spurs began for you about 10 years ago.

Going by that logic, only the original Chaparrals fans need vote, then.

[samikeyp]

Going by that logic, only the original Chaparrals fans need vote, then.

Church of Goo Kennedy. :lol

[SenorSpur]

While I voted for Bruce here, I don't want to diminish Kenon's contributions. Just because the teams he played on didn't reach the Finals or the fact that he only played 5 years, doesn't mean he's not worthy of Top 10 status. The fact is he was an ALL-star caliber player and a consistent 20-10 player. How may Spurs can we say have those credentials?

Which is why I disagree with the idea of inserting coaches and executives (non-players) into the mix for consideration. In doing so, this pushes worthy players, like Kenon, down the list and devalues their career contributions in Spurs lore.

[2centsworth]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

clutchness and attitude.

btw, these sorts of polls aways favor the most recent players. If Pop had to choose between Kenon in his prime and Bruce, Bruce would be playing in Isreal. Faulting Kenon for not winning a championship is unfair, give him Tim Duncan and I bet he would have some jewerly. This whole damn franchise needed Tim Duncan.

[50 cent]

Where the hell is Kevin Willis and Dwayne Schintzus?

:lamo

[MajorMike]

If you are going on what they mean to the Spurs' Championship run, better put Kerr and Speedy on that list because we don't kick it off in 2003 without them.

[FromWayDowntown]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

I think that's a valid question; I think the responses that have been posted cover some of that ground. I also think, though, that Silas was the superior performer to Kenon in terms of accomplishment as well. While Kenon was a 2-time All-Star, Silas was named to a couple of All-League teams while he played for the Spurs, along with a couple of All-Star appearances (although all of that occurred while the Spurs were still playing in the ABA).

I suppose, ultimately, the distinction is one truly of perception, whether the perception is valid or not. Silas was the first player to have his jersey retired by the Spurs -- a distinction that he held alone for almost four years (2/28/84 through 12/5/87). The politics of the situation being what they were, for whatever reason, the powers that be in San Antonio believed Silas to be that significant to the franchise and never accorded the same level of respect to Kenon's career. I think, as time passes, more and more people realize that Kenon was among the more exceptional producers in Spurs history and that he was an integral part of the early contenders that the Spurs put together. But history for most Spurs fans will always exalt Silas over Kenon.

It's good to see that Larry Kenon is starting to come to more Spurs events -- he was in attendance for a halftime tribute at a game this past season (and may have been there for more than 1) and got a nice reaction from the crowd. And when the old-schoolers talk Spurs, they never forget to mention Kenon in the same breath as Gervin and Silas.

[SenorSpur]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

In addition to "clutchness" and "attitude", as 2CentsWorth has accurately pointed out, I would also add leadership. Silas was the Captain. He was the team Leader. In addition to being the scoring point guard, he had the ball in his hands the majority of the time, setting up guys like Ice and creating offense for himself. He was lethal once he got into the paint and was famous for his jump-stop in the lane and the short midrange shot over opposing centers.

While Gervin was an unstoppable offensive machine, it was Silas, whom the coaches, fans, and even opposing players feared n the 4th quarters. He built his All-ABA reputation because of his uncanny ability to get to whereever he wanted and whatever shot he wanted over any defender. He was Kobe-esque in his ability to continously pull off this feat. He was the original "Mamba" or "Snake" as he was affectionately named.

Former GM and head coach, Bob Bass, created the 1-4 offense specifically to take advantage of Silas' late game, offensive abilities. Imagine today, Ginobili dribbling at the top of the key in the 1-4 offense at the end of a game. Simply remove Ginobili and insert Silas. The other advantage in having the ball in Snake's hands down the stretch was that he was a perennial 88-90% FT shooter. Foul him and it's as good as a layup.

With Silas, the Spurs of the era, had THE best backcourt in basketball.

[Spurs Brazil]

I voted Bruce for 9 and I'm doing it again

[stepmonkey]

Here's a question for the old-schoolers... We've already voted Silas in at #9. What does he have on Kenon, other than length of time with the Spurs?

They didn't call him Captain Late for nothing. At the end of the game, even with Gervin and Kenon in the line-up, the ball always went to Silas for the last shot. His turnaround jumper from the free throw line was automatic.

[stepmonkey]

No love for Junior?

He got my vote. Johnny Moore's name better show up soon.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The voting debates should start heating after #10. Should be fun.

[ShoogarBear]

I already weighed in on Kenon in the #9 thread. Immensely talented and superior stats, but lacked the extra toughness/clutchness that would have made him a truly great player.

In fact, he's about the only guy on the old Spurs for whom I can't offhand recall a single game winning play. That includes Billy Paultz, Olberding, Dietrick, Mike Gale. I'm sure he must have had some, but I don't remember them.

[DynastyBuilder]

So if we're going off of a retired jersey then Moore > Bruce, AJ > Bruce.

[timvp]

And what makes you think Bowen will get his jersy retired anyways?Common sense.


So if we're going off of a retired jersey then Moore > Bruce, AJ > Bruce.Active players can get their jersey retired? :lol

[DynastyBuilder]

Common sense.

Active players can get their jersey retired? :lol

No kiddin. :wow

But to hear you guys talk about Bruce like he set the world on fire is a little absurd don't you think?

[century]

So if we're going off of a retired jersey then Moore > Bruce, AJ > Bruce.

Huh? I think you should go off of a cliff...

[timvp]

No kiddin. :wow

But to hear you guys talk about Bruce like he set the world on fire is a little absurd don't you think?No. Seven All-Defensive teams. Five consecutive first team appearances. Multiple times running up for DPOY. Most consistent three-point shooter in Spurs playoff history. Fourth best player in three championships. Went five years without missing a game.

He has both the awards and the intangibles to be ranked as the 10th best. Easily.

If he was a first team offensive player five straight years, he'd probably be considered the second best player on the team. But because it's defense, he is overlooked ... even though everything about the Spurs winning is predicated on their defense.

[DynastyBuilder]

Of course Bruce doesn't have a retired jersey. I wasn't implying he did because he is active. The point I'm making is you guys put so much weight on a retired jersey it should count over those who do not, active or inactive.

[DynastyBuilder]

No. Seven All-Defensive teams. Five consecutive first team appearances. Multiple times running up for DPOY. Most consistent three-point shooter in Spurs playoff history. Fourth best player in three championships. Went five years without missing a game.

He has both the awards and the intangibles to be ranked as the 10th best. Easily.

If he was a first team offensive player five straight years, he'd probably be considered the second best player on the team. But because it's defense, he is overlooked ... even though everything about the Spurs winning is predicated on their defense.

And thats fine. You have your opinion, I have mine. Thats what makes it so great :toast

[timvp]

I officially put my vote in for Bowen.

#11 will be very interesting. Even considering Kenon's gaudy stats and other players who had very good seasons like Alvin Robertson and Artis Gilmore ... I'm leaning heavily towards Avery Johnson at 11. His intangibles are off the charts in helping institute what we know as Spurs Basketball. Not only that, he was the emotional leader for the group that won the '99 championship and while his stats aren't great, they stack up well enough historically.

Avery Johnson for #11.

:stirpot:

[baseline bum]

My 11-15 would be

11. Special K
12. Alvin
13. Artis
14. Mitchell
15. AJ

Maybe AJ @ 14, Mike @ 15... not sure on that one yet

[Spurtacus]

Bruce for the 3rd consecutive time...

[Dex]

http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/BruceBowenBlocksDirk.jpg

Bruce Bowen, no doubt about it. I have no qualms with anybody on this list before him, but Bruce definitely deserves this last spot to round out the Top 10.

Larry Kenon might have been a stat-filler during his time here, but San Antonio was just a blip on his career, not a definition. Derek Anderson and Dominique Wilkins came here and put up decent stats for a while, too...but you'll be hard pressed to see them on this list. I'm not saying Kenon won't be Top 20...but I can't imagine him sitting ahead of Bruce, not to mention a few others.

Bruce Bowen is such an underrated and integral part of the San Antonio Spurs success that I don't believe he will be truly appreciated until he is gone and his jersey is being retired to the rafters. Much like his good friend Sean Elliott, Bowen could very well ending up as one of those faces that defines San Antonio.

As for his contributions on the court, it is more to his credit that he has been such a huge gear of this team without being able to contribute more offensively. We're talking about a guy who is willing to put all of his energy into the defensive end and dirty work. A guy who was a virtual Iron Man of the basketball court and has been out there to set the tone for the team, night in and night out, year after year. Not to mention a guy who has made an offensive living out of ONE SIGNATURE SHOT. I am still completely dumbfounded when I see a team give him the sideline three.

Without Bruce, the Spurs don't solve the riddle of Kobe and the Lakers.

Without Bruce, the Spurs don't witness Lebron James turn in one of the most lackluster Finals performances ever.

Without Bruce, the Spurs don't turn Ray Allen into a sandy vagina and don't see Billups saving shot get stuffed and don't perennially transform Shawn Marion into a playoff Houdini act.

Bruce is probably just as important to this team as the Big Three have been for three of the four Championships. The only reason it's not considered a Big Four is because of his offensive deficiencies but when it really comes down to it, there's only so many shots to go around. If you look at the Starting Lineup of our last three championship teams, the only rotational piece is the center, and that is a puzzle that the Spurs are still struggling to solve.

Bowen exemplifies the Stonecutter attitude by showing up every day and playing hard every minute, and he deserves the 10 spot more than any other Spur that is still remaining.

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2005/BowenManu20_295_050623.jpg

[ShoogarBear]

If you want to talk about best player, then 11 would be Kenon or Robertson.

If you want player with the biggest legacy, then it would be AJ.

[exstatic]

Of course Bruce doesn't have a retired jersey. I wasn't implying he did because he is active. The point I'm making is you guys put so much weight on a retired jersey it should count over those who do not, active or inactive.

Everyone active "does not", so just start your list with those retired jerseys on top of everyone, including Tim, who "does not".

[DynastyBuilder]

I'm fine with grandfathering the retired jersey guys automatically in the top 10. I wasn't throwing around the weight of having a retired jersey, I was pointing out that this has hurt other players. But since obviously the jerseys do carry weight then that should be recognized. Just my opinion.

[exstatic]

I'm fine with grandfathering the retired jersey guys automatically in the top 10. I wasn't throwing around the weight of having a retired jersey, I was pointing out that this has hurt other players. But since obviously the jerseys do carry weight then that should be recognized. Just my opinion.
I think it should be weighed for two players who are both no longer active, but thrown out the window for any active players, since they can't, by definition, have their jerseys retired.

[whottt]

What's with all these asshats voting for Vinny D?

[Brutalis]

What's with all these asshats voting for Vinny D?

It's a white thing!