Spot Number 13 - Top 50 Spurs

[timvp]

SpursTalk's Top 50 Spurs
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Gregg Popovich
5. Angelo Drossos
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Tony Parker
8. Sean Elliott
9. James Silas
10. Bruce Bowen
11. Larry Kenon
12. Avery Johnson

------------------------------

To pass the time until the start of preseason, let's see how SpursTalk.com ranks the Top 50 Spurs. Those eligible for the list include all players, coaches and owners. I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

For more information on what we are doing, check out this thread (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103061).

In this thread, we will vote for spot number 13. Please place your vote. If you will, also explain in this thread why you voted how you did.

Thanks.



P.S.

Poll options listed in alphabetical order. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, post in the thread and I'll add the person.

Voting will end 2AM CST Friday morning.

Please vote only once.

[J.T.]

This seems like a good opportunity to vote for Malik Rose.

[timvp]

I personally think this one should be between:

Alvin Robertson
Three-time All-Star for the Spurs. Won the Defensive Player of the Year and the Most Improved Player awards while with the Spurs. Four times on an All-Defensive team and also made the All-NBA second team. All-time leader in NBA history in steals per game. Set the record for most steals in a season (301) while with the Spurs.

Artis Gilmore
Played five season with the Spurs. Averaged 16.1 points, 9.7 rebounds and 1.8 blocks over those five seasons. Shot 62.1% from the field while with the Spurs. Two-time NBA All-Star with the Spurs.

Bob Bass
Was the GM of the Spurs from 1974-75 to 1993-94. Filled in as interim coach four different times. Did a very good job of helping the Spurs remain a winning franchise while being given limited funds by the owners he worked for. In his 19 seasons as GM, the Spurs were a combined 894-750. The Spurs were at or above .500 in 14 out of the 19 years he was GM. As a coach, his all-time record was 143-108 (5th most coaching wins in franchise history, 6th best winning percentage in franchise history).

Mike Mitchell
Played for the Spurs for parts of seven seasons. Averaged 20+ points four of those seasons. Averaged 20.1 points and 5.5 rebounds per game while with the Spurs. Fifth All-Time in franchise history in points scored behind Gervin, Robinson, Duncan and Silas. Fourth All-Time in franchise history if field goals made behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

Peter Holt
The owner during all four championship runs. Helped get the SBC Center built which allowed the Spurs to stay in San Antonio. Has been a hands-off owner and let the basketball people handle basketball business. Has paid luxury tax money at various times. Helped pass the current CBA which is very friendly toward small market teams.

RC Buford
Has been Pop's right-hand man behind the scenes since 1994. Buford was also an assistant coach under Larry Brown. Has been the general manager during the last three championships. He was the main scout responsible for Manu Ginobili. Also helped convince Pop to draft Tony Parker. Has avoided bad contracts and has targeted veteran role players who fit into the culture of the team.

[timvp]

The three I think I like the most right now are Robertson, Bass and Holt. Not sure on who I'm going with yet, though.

[Brutalis]

Robertson. Same as last vote.

[timvp]

Johnny Moore should have been on my list probably. He's the only remaining player not on the list to have his number retired by the Spurs. That has to be considered a big plus in his favor.

[djohn14]

Oberto...really? Id rather see Devin Brown here rather than Oberto lol. Ill probably say Robinson as well.

[urunobili]

no love for RC, Bud or Presti yet? :depressed

[SenorSpur]

Robertson. Same as last vote.

:toast

I don't need to lobby for this guy anymore. In fact, position 13 is way too low for him.

[FromWayDowntown]

Robertson also gives the Spurs a unique distinction: 2 of the 4 players to record quadruple-doubles in NBA games did so in a Spurs uniform -- David Robinson and Alvin Robertson.

[MajorMike]

Dah-nee-feh-ree
Dah-nee-feh-ree
Dah-nee-feh-ree

[baseline bum]

Definitely Alvin

[Whisky Dog]

Johnny Moore should have been on my list probably. He's the only remaining player not on the list to have his number retired by the Spurs. That has to be considered a big plus in his favor.

The Spurs have one of the all time great distinctions in all of sports history.

At one time they had a team that was pretty much comprised of all black men except for one man, one lone white man...

And his name was Del Negro. It doesn't get any better than that. That has to be a big plus in his favor.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs have one of the all time great distinctions in all of sports history.

At one time they had a team that was pretty much comprised of all black men except for one man, one lone white man...

And his name was Del Negro. It doesn't get any better than that. That has to be a big plus in his favor.

The fallacy of your argument was that Del Negro was never a man.

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs have one of the all time great distinctions in all of sports history.

At one time they had a team that was pretty much comprised of all black men except for one man, one lone white man...

And his name was Del Negro. It doesn't get any better than that. That has to be a big plus in his favor.

...and Del Negro had no business being on the team. He was deemed the replacement for Rod Strickland, who had fallen out of favor with management. One of the absolute worst trades in Spurs history. Rod should've remained with the Spurs for many years.

[Whisky Dog]

touche...

He was never worth a shit as a player, but the pure irony of being the only white dude in a sea of black dudes and having the name DEL NEGRO is funny enough to land him at # 13. It's an unlucky number anyway...

[baseline bum]

...and Del Negro had no business being on the team. He was deemed the replacement for Rod Strickland, who had fallen out of favor with management. One of the absolute worst trades in Spurs history. Rod should've remained with the Spurs for many years.

You can thank cheap-fuck Red McCombs for that one.

[Spooky]

I voted Mario Elie over AJ yesterday. I'm flip floppin over to Alvin Robertson.

[The Truth #6]

I remember when Alvin hit a last second 3 to beat the Sixers when they were in town for Dr. J's farewell season. Everyone was chanting his name, in a very similar way to when Sean hit his miracle 3 versus Portland.

[SenorSpur]

touche...

He was never worth a shit as a player, but the pure irony of being the only white dude in a sea of black dudes and having the name DEL NEGRO is funny enough to land him at # 13. It's an unlucky number anyway...

Holy crap Batman! I never thought about that. :toast

The scapegoating and subsequent trade of Strickland and the eventual acquisition of Del Negro are two sterling examples of how incompetent the Spurs ownership and management of the Spurs were at that time (pre-Holt, pre-Pop). In looking back at these events, it so easy to appreciate where this team it now, the manner in which it's run and the organization model that's currently in place.

[urunobili]

Holy crap Batman! I never thought about that. :toast

The scapegoating and subsequent trade of Strickland and the eventual acquisition of Del Negro are two sterling examples of how incompetent the Spurs ownership and management of the Spurs were at that time (pre-Holt, pre-Pop). In looking back at these events, it so easy to appreciate where this team it now, the manner in which it's run and the organization model that's currently in place.

THat's why i think this should be RC's spot on the countdown... even Presti should be getting some love already

[2centsworth]

Mario Ellie! Before Mario the Spurs were one of the softest most chokingness teams around. After Mario the Spurs have been tough, even labeled dirty, and money in big spots! I can't help but believe mario help set that trend, and we don't win 4 titles without it.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Johnny Moore was a fan favorite back in the early 80's. In terms of influence he should be way up the list. I think he's not getting the love he should so far.

ATrain is probably my second choice of the remaining list. When the Spurs acquired him he changed the face of the team. Finally we had a player that people thought would give us a legitimate shot of beating the Showtime Lakers. And there were some great matchups between him and Kareem.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Mario Ellie! Before Mario the Spurs were one of the softest most chokingness teams around. After Mario the Spurs have been tough, even labeled dirty, and money in big spots! I can't help but believe mario help set that trend, and we don't win 4 titles without it.


Mario is high on my list, too. Definitely top 20.

[Brutalis]

Johnny Moore was a fan favorite back in the early 80's. In terms of influence he should be way up the list. I think he's not getting the love he should so far.

ATrain is probably my second choice of the remaining list. When the Spurs acquired him he changed the face of the team. Finally we had a player that people thought would give us a legitimate shot of beating the Showtime Lakers. And there were some great matchups between him and Kareem.

I agree with Moore. :wow

[I Love Me Some Me]

Johnny Moore should have been on my list probably. He's the only remaining player not on the list to have his number retired by the Spurs. That has to be considered a big plus in his favor.

Exactly. I don't understand how people have continued to ignore him. He was a better point guard in his sleep than Avery Johnson ever was. He would be the the all-time assist leader for the franchise, if not for desert fever.

He led the league in assists in 1982, with a 9.6 average. Over guys like Magic Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Tiny Archibald, and Isaiah Thomas. He was second in the league in assists in 1983, 9th in 1984, and 3rd in 1985. He was also in the top 10 in steals during that time. He was arguably one of the best point guards in the league from 1981-1985.

He played 520 games (about two season less that Avery Johnson), and averaged 9.4 points, 7.4 assists, and almost 2 steals per game. In 1985 (maybe the best season by a Spurs point guard ever, including Tony Parker) he averaged 12.8 points, 10 assists, and 2.79 steals in 82 games. In that season he had a near quadruple double with 26 points, 13 assists, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists in a game against Golden State.

He was diagnosed with desert fever the following season, fought to return, which he finally did, but was robbed of the prime of his career. Avery Johnson isn't even in the same league as this guy, and he's already on the board.

Wake up people, know your history and quit ignoring this guy.

[urunobili]

Exactly. I don't understand how people have continued to ignore him. He was a better point guard in his sleep than Avery Johnson ever was. He would be the the all-time assist leader for the franchise, if not for desert fever.

He led the league in assists in 1982, with a 9.6 average. Over guys like Magic Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Tiny Archibald, and Isaiah Thomas. He was second in the league in assists in 1983, 9th in 1984, and 3rd in 1985. He was also in the top 10 in steals during that time. He was arguably one of the best point guards in the league from 1981-1985.

He played 520 games (about two season less that Avery Johnson), and averaged 9.4 points, 7.4 assists, and almost 2 steals per game. In 1985 (maybe the best season by a Spurs point guard ever, including Tony Parker) he averaged 12.8 points, 10 assists, and 2.79 steals in 82 games. In that season he had a near quadruple double with 26 points, 13 assists, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists in a game against Golden State.

He was diagnosed with desert fever the following season, fought to return, which he finally did, but was robbed of the prime of his career. Avery Johnson isn't even in the same league as this guy, and he's already on the board.

Wake up people, know your history and quit ignoring this guy.
Thanks for helping me choose my next pick

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Exactly. I don't understand how people have continued to ignore him. He was a better point guard in his sleep than Avery Johnson ever was. He would be the the all-time assist leader for the franchise, if not for desert fever.

He led the league in assists in 1982, with a 9.6 average. Over guys like Magic Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Tiny Archibald, and Isaiah Thomas. He was second in the league in assists in 1983, 9th in 1984, and 3rd in 1985. He was also in the top 10 in steals during that time. He was arguably one of the best point guards in the league from 1981-1985.

He played 520 games (about two season less that Avery Johnson), and averaged 9.4 points, 7.4 assists, and almost 2 steals per game. In 1985 (maybe the best season by a Spurs point guard ever, including Tony Parker) he averaged 12.8 points, 10 assists, and 2.79 steals in 82 games. In that season he had a near quadruple double with 26 points, 13 assists, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists in a game against Golden State.

He was diagnosed with desert fever the following season, fought to return, which he finally did, but was robbed of the prime of his career. Avery Johnson isn't even in the same league as this guy, and he's already on the board.

Wake up people, know your history and quit ignoring this guy.

It's definitely a reflection of 'what have you done for me lately'.

[spurspf]

Johnny Moore was a fan favorite back in the early 80's. In terms of influence he should be way up the list. I think he's not getting the love he should so far.

ATrain is probably my second choice of the remaining list. When the Spurs acquired him he changed the face of the team. Finally we had a player that people thought would give us a legitimate shot of beating the Showtime Lakers. And there were some great matchups between him and Kareem.

+1

[baseline bum]

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

[timvp]

Mario Ellie! Before Mario the Spurs were one of the softest most chokingness teams around. After Mario the Spurs have been tough, even labeled dirty, and money in big spots! I can't help but believe mario help set that trend, and we don't win 4 titles without it.:td

I always find it lame that supposed Spurs fans pile on and continue the "Spurs were soft" takes. While they were definitely not as tough as the championship level Spurs, the Spurs teams of the early to mid 90s weren't really soft. Saying so is a slap in the face of David Robinson and the other players who kept the Spurs playing at an elite level.

Elie (with one L) helped the Spurs add some playoff savviness and leadership that was vital during the first championship run. He should be recognized for that, no doubt. That said, I don't think Elie belongs anywhere near this discussion for this spot.

He played all of two seasons in San Antonio. His second season he basically tanked and was a non-factor the whole year. When Pop told Elie he needed to be a leader, Elie responded by saying "That's the coach's job".

So basically, Elie's contributions boil down to one season. In that one season, his intangibles were extremely important. He played decently well during the regular season (~9.7 points, 47% from the field). But during the playoffs, he struggled (8 points, 38% from the field, 25% from three).

Elie is a notable player in Spurs history but to me it is laughable to suggest he deserves to be on this list over players like Robertson, Moore or Gilmore. Elie belongs somewhere around were Stephen Jackson ends up. Even if his intangibles were dominant in one season ... it is still only one season. He didn't have the stats or the longevity to back it up. Especially considering he quit on the team in his only other year.

[SenorSpur]

:td

He played all of two seasons in San Antonio. His second season he basically tanked and was a non-factor the whole year. When Pop told Elie he needed to be a leader, Elie responded by saying "That's the coach's job".



Wow! That's a damning revelation. I never would've thought that from someone that prided himself on being mentally and physically tough. Sounds like a guy resting on his laurels to me.

Nevertheless, I agree that Elie DOES NOT warrant consideration anytime soon.

[ShoogarBear]

Doug Moe need to start being included in the discussion at this point. He definitely ranks above Robertson in terms of lasting contributions to the team , and on the same level as Mitchell, Gilmore, and Moore.

In terms of non-players, I'd probably rank him around Holt and definitely above Buford (who, really, is just coattailing Pop).

Overall, I'd say it's between Moore, Moe, Holt, Mitchell, Bass, and Gilmore.

[2centsworth]

:td

I always find it lame that supposed Spurs fans pile on and continue the "Spurs were soft" takes.

missing clutch FTS, having the best record, but not getting it done ala Dallas Mavs. I would say that's soft.



While they were definitely not as tough as the championship level Spurs, the Spurs teams of the early to mid 90s weren't really soft. Saying so is a slap in the face of David Robinson and the other players who kept the Spurs playing at an elite level.

Lots of soft teams play at elite levels. It's somewhat of a slap, championship teams bring "IT". Those teams of the 90s didn't have "IT".



Elie (with one L) helped the Spurs add some playoff savviness and leadership that was vital during the first championship run. He should be recognized for that, no doubt. That said, I don't think Elie belongs anywhere near this discussion for this spot.

Not for this spot, but shouldn't fall out of the top 20.




He played all of two seasons in San Antonio. His second season he basically tanked and was a non-factor the whole year. When Pop told Elie he needed to be a leader, Elie responded by saying "That's the coach's job". Elie is one of the clutchest players I've ever seen. He consistently hit big must have shots. Maybe in the playoffs his fg% was down, but when we had to have it he came through. Also, he closed out every game with his ice water FT shooting.

The first championship is the hardest, and arguably the sweetest. Elie was huge in getting the Spurs over the hump.




So basically, Elie's contributions boil down to one season. In that one season, his intangibles were extremely important. I constantly hear the Houston game during the regular season mentioned as a turning point. Plus, Elie was known for yelling and getting the most out of the big guys.



He played decently well during the regular season (~9.7 points, 47% from the field). But during the playoffs, he struggled (8 points, 38% from the field, 25% from three). We you had to have it he gave it. A shot that is forgotten is in game 5 at NY and Mario hitting a big 3 late.



Elie is a notable player in Spurs history but to me it is laughable to suggest he deserves to be on this list over players like Robertson, Moore or Gilmore.

I think Elie deserves top 20 and mentioning him now rather than at 20 increases his chances. I'm playing the game. The guys you mentioned are locks for the next few slots.



Elie belongs somewhere around were Stephen Jackson ends up.

Jacks was in the same mold, but Elie was the original and helped get us over the HUGE hump.



Even if his intangibles were dominant in one season ... it is still only one season. I'll trade 10 division championships for 1 NBA title.



He didn't have the stats or the longevity to back it up. Especially considering he quit on the team in his only other year.

I don't remember that. I do remember the league changing the D rules and Elie being frustrated. It was the end of the line for that team. what you call quiting others call frustration.

[timvp]

Doug Moe need to start being included in the discussion at this point. He definitely ranks above Robertson in terms of lasting contributions to the team , and on the same level as Mitchell, Gilmore, and Moore.

In terms of non-players, I'd probably rank him around Holt and definitely above Buford (who, really, is just coattailing Pop).

Overall, I'd say it's between Moore, Moe, Holt, Mitchell, Bass, and Gilmore.Even though Robertson loses a good amount of points for being a woman-beating douche who didn't have an affect on winning and losing games, his numbers and accomplishments during his time in San Antonio make him hard to overlook. Kenon got in based solely on stats and accomplishments and I'd argue Robertson has the even more impressive resume on paper.

But I do agree that Robertson's lasting impression on the Spurs is almost non-existent. Probably the most important thing he did was not totally spiral down the drain before getting traded for Terry Cummings.

[ShoogarBear]

Even though Robertson loses a good amount of points for being a woman-beating douche who didn't have an affect on winning and losing games, his numbers and accomplishments during his time in San Antonio make him hard to overlook. Kenon got in based solely on stats and accomplishments and I'd argue Robertson has the even more impressive resume on paper.

But I do agree that Robertson's lasting impression on the Spurs is almost non-existent.

If you remember, I downgraded Kenon for the same reason. So at least I'm being consistent.

[timvp]

If you remember, I downgraded Kenon for the same reason. So at least I'm being consistent.True. :tu

Doug Moe should definitely be the next coach off the list. Second to Pop in career wins. Coached the team when they got into the NBA and did better than almost anyone expected. His uptempo style of play kept the fans interested and coming back to games.

[angel_luv]

I came very close to voting for Sho...

But since I am trying to vote as much as possible from a basketball perspective, I picked Alvin Robertson.

L.J.- Thanks very much for the player break down. It was very informative and helpful. :tu

[angel_luv]

I think Sho should make the list no later than spot 25 as should Malik.

Hedo, Brent, Fabricio, Mario Elie, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, P.J. Carlesimo, Sam Presti, Stephen Jackson, and Vinny Del Negro are all people I would like to see make the top 50 list as well.

RC Buford and Steve Kerr deserve a spot too, but I am not particularly concerned that they get one.

[ShoogarBear]

Hedo is a lock for top 50.

[FromWayDowntown]

I went with Junior here. I just think the role he played on some of the best pre-title Spurs teams was vital to the successes of those teams, that his contributions were significant, that his stature with the organization (retired jersey, front office job for at least a few years doing PR) and with fans is hard to miss, and that he deserves this spot.

I won't be able to vote for a few days. It looks like Alvin might win out here, but I'd put Moore at 13, Bass at 14, Robertson at 15, and Moe at 16.

[Whisky Dog]

Hedo? If Elie gets credit for one season in which he brought some intangibles to a championship club, then what credit does Hedo get for one season in which he choked against the Lakers?

[Spurs Brazil]

I'll go with Robertson today and Holt tomorrow

[Spurminator]

Bump because I think people are getting confused as to which is today's thread...

You're welcome.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If Manu is not vote #2 this forum has become joke. Any idiot can know

1. Duncan
2. Manu

this is nonsense to vote otherwise.

[timvp]

If Manu is not vote #2 this forum has become joke. Any idiot can know

1. Duncan
2. Manu

this is nonsense to vote otherwise.ROFL.

Comcast.

[2centsworth]

If Manu is not vote #2 this forum has become joke. Any idiot can know

1. Duncan
2. Manu

this is nonsense to vote otherwise.

this is a joke right?

[samikeyp]

If Manu is not vote #2 this forum has become joke. Any idiot can know

1. Duncan
2. Manu

this is nonsense to vote otherwise.

If there was any doubt left that you were a troll...it disappeared just now.

Die. Slowly and painfully.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm still haven't decided to vote here.

While I'm casting aspersions in many directions, I will say that 00 gets beloved-but-overrated points by many people just because he was a Longhorn.

But this poll is for lasting influence, and he definitely has more than Robertson, although it's arguable that he has more than Moe, Holt, or Bass. All things being equal, I guess I'll go with the player over the non-player.

[century]

PETER HOLT!!!

[dallaskd]

Malik!!!!!!!!

[timvp]

I begrudgingly ended up voting for Robertson. Very accomplished during his time with the Spurs. Three All-Star games and a DPOY is hard to overlook. As are the facts that he set the All-Time record for steals while with the Spurs and had a quadruple-double. I'm not sure it was the right pick because his legacy just isn't there and his woman-beating ways ruined whatever attachment he had with the Spurs. But for me, his accomplishments on the court were too hard to ignore.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If there was any doubt left that you were a troll...it disappeared just now.

Die. Slowly and painfully.

Manu is better then Robinson, Gervin and all these others. Stupid, stupid, stupid poll.

[stéphane]

Manu is better then Robinson, Gervin and all these others. Stupid, stupid, stupid poll.

lol you are absolutely clueless about basket ball.

[whottt]

I'm having a hard time getting a handle on the voting criteria.


If it's about impact on the franchise then guys like Robert Horry, Stephen Jackson and Mario Elie need to be going right along with AJ.


If it's about actual game then guys like Mitchell, Cummings, Rodman, Atrain, Robertson and Moore are getting pathetically overlooked.



If it's about career with the Spurs then Bob Bass should have been in a long time ago, and Johnny Moore, Mike Mitchell and Alvin Robertson need to be voted in immediately.

[timvp]

If it's about career with the Spurs then Bob Bass should have been in a long time ago, and Johnny Moore, Mike Mitchell and Alvin Robertson need to be voted in immediately.That seems like how most are looking at it. Perhaps if you stopped voting for Brent Barry constantly Bob Bass would have a shot :rolleyes

[Brutalis]

Manu is better then Robinson, Gervin and all these others. Stupid, stupid, stupid poll.

IDIOT

DRob was twice the international player Manu is. Dude dominated scoring and rebounding and still holds the USA scoring record.

[whottt]

That seems like how most are looking at it. Perhaps if you stopped voting for Brent Barry constantly Bob Bass would have a shot :rolleyes



Eh...I'm mixing it up.

But ultimately I'm having a hard time voting for the exec types, including Drossos, with the exception of Pop...I just don't really think of them as Spurs.

[timvp]

Eh...I'm mixing it up.

But ultimately I'm having a hard time voting for the exec types, including Drossos, with the exception of Pop...I just don't really think of them as Spurs.

Drossos not a Spur? :wow

I guess that's a side effect of bandwagon hoppers . . .

[ShoogarBear]

Drossos not a Spur? :wow

I guess that's a side effect of bandwagon hoppers . . .

You have to realize Drossos was probably during his Mav Fan days.