Robinson The Most Productive Center Since The '80's

[duncan228]

From The Wages Of Wins Journal

The Best NBA Center in my Student’s Life (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/the-best-nba-center-in-my-student%E2%80%99s-life/)

My students this semester look to be about twenty years old. This means that they were born in the late-1980s, or sometime around the time when I was a college student (and yes — as I rapidly approach forty (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/favre-thoughts/) — that makes you feel a bit old).

After writing my last post - comparing Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing (the latest Hall-of-Fame centers) - I started to wonder: Who is the best center in the lives of my students?

If start the clock sometimes in the eighties we have a few candidates. But I think two stand above all others.

The first center I am thinking of has the following characteristics:

-More than $250 million in career earnings
-Nine times named to the first team All-NBA team
-One MVP award
-Four times played for the NBA champion

These same characteristics were as follows for the second center:

-About $118 million in career earnings
-Four times named to the first team All-NBA team
-One MVP award
-Twice played for the NBA champion

When we look at salaries, awards, and championships, it’s pretty clear the first center is number one. But when we look at the Wages of Wins metrics. a different story is told.

Admiral vs. Shaq

Table One: Comparing the Career Averages of Shaquille O’Neal and David Robinson (http://www.wagesofwins.com/RobinsonShaq.html)

Table One compares the career averages - across the box score statistics and Win Score - for Shaquille O’Neal (center #1) and David Robinson (center #2). When we look at the individual stats, we see that Shaq offered more in terms of shooting efficiency from the field, points scored, rebounds, and assists. The Admiral had the advantage in free throw shooting, steals, turnovers, blocked shots, and personal fouls. When we put the whole picture together - via Win Score - we see that Robinson comes out ahead.

How does this difference translate into wins?

Table Two: Comparing the Career Performances of David Robinson and Shaquille O’Neal (http://www.wagesofwins.com/RobinsonShaqWP.html)

Table Two compares each player in terms of Wins Produced and WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes]. Through the 2007-08 season, Shaq had played 3,401 more minutes in his career. Consequently, the Wins Produced story is quite similar (each produced a bit more than 250 wins in his career).

When we turn to WP48, though, we see that Robinson has posted the better mark. How much better? Had Shaq’s WP48 been equivalent to the Admiral’s, he would have produced 31.4 additional wins in his career.

And by making one change to his game, Shaq could have achieved this production level. For his career Shaq has hit 52% of his free throws. In contrast, Robinson connected on 74% of his shots from the line. Has Shaq matched Robinson’s efficiency from the line, he would have produced 32.9 additional wins in his career and posted a 0.365 career WP48. Robinson’s career mark was 0.363, so we see that Shaq’s inconsistency at the charity stripe could be considered the one factor that held him back.

Perceptions of Robinson

Although Shaq was less productive, it’s still the case that he has been paid more and received more awards. Part of the difference in pay can be attributed to Shaq playing in more recent years and generally playing in a larger market. The awards, though, are probably a different story.

Table Two not only reports the performance of Robinson and O’Neal, but also the average performance of their teammates (or everyone else on the team not named The Admiral or Shaq). To give some perspective to these numbers, in 2007-08 the average WP48 of the teammates (or non-stars) on an NBA team was 0.076. In Shaq’s first two years - and in Miami in the first part of 2007-08 - his teammates were below average. In every other season, though, O’Neal was able to play with above average teammates. In fact in nine seasons his teammates WP48 surpassed the 0.100 mark.

Above average teammates was also the norm for Robinson, but only after Tim Duncan arrived in 1997. Prior to Duncan’s arrival, Robinson’s teammates posted an average WP48 of 0.076. In other words, unlike Shaq, for much of his career Robinson did not have an exceptional team around him. As a consequence, Robinson’s teams did not win as often as the team’s employing Shaq. And one suspects - like we saw with Kevin Garnett before he arrived in Boston (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/speeding-up-time-for-bill-simmons/) - the failings of Robinson’s teammates dimmed the perceptions of the Admiral’s performance.

As I have noted in the past, the purpose of player statistics is to separate a player from his teammates. In other words, the analysis of player statistics should prevent us from confusing the performance of the team from the performance of the player. And when we look at all the stats - including Shaq’s woeful performance at the line - it appears that despite the edge in championships, awards, and money, Shaq is not quite as productive as The Admiral.

Okay, the Admiral tops Shaq. But across the last twenty years, is Robinson even the best Spur? To answer this question, let’s look back at Table One, where the career statistical averages of Duncan are also reported. As one can see, Robinson offered more in his career. If we turn to Wins Produced we see that Duncan has produced 211.9 wins in 30,610 career minutes. This works out to a WP48 of 0.332. This is about what Shaq has done across his entire career, although we have to remember that Shaq’s career numbers are deflated by his last two seasons. If Duncan insists on playing until the bitter end, his career numbers will also take a hit.

What about The Dream?

What about the subjects of the last post, Olajuwon and Ewing (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/ewing-or-olajuwon-who-was-better/)? Ewing - who was still very good - offered less than Olajuwon, Shaq, Duncan, and Robinson. When we look at Olajuwon, though, we see that he produced 272.1 career wins. This mark bests the other four players we considered. But Olajuwon played nearly 10,000 more minutes in his career than Robinson. If we turn to WP48, we see that Robinson’s career mark of 0.363 easily tops Olajuwon’s mark of 0.295.

Of course, some might notice that Robinson didn’t keep playing until his productivity descended into the average range. In other words, had Robinson - like Shaq and Olajuwon - played until he couldn’t play anymore, perhaps the Admiral’s career numbers would be lower. Although this might be true, we should also note that Robinson not only was better across his career, he was better at the peak of his career as well. To see this point consider how many times each of these players surpassed a WP48 of 0.400 or 0.0300:

Robinson: +0.400 in three season, +0.300 in 11 seasons
O’Neal: +0.400 in one season, +0.300 in 12 seasons
Olajuwon: +0.400 in one season, +0.300 in 9 seasons
Duncan: never surpassed 0.400, +0.300 in 8 seasons
Ewing: never surpassed 0.300 or 0.400
This list reveals that Robinson, at his peak, surpassed the performance of any of the other centers we considered. And that includes Olajuwon.

Let me close by considering an argument people often offer in evaluating basketball players. Often when considering whether player A is better than player B, people look at how the two players performed against each other. Although this approach might work in a sport like boxing or tennis, it’s not appropriate in basketball. Basketball is a five-on-five sport. What matters is how a player contributes to his team’s success, not how he performs relative to one person on another team. And when we consider each player’s contribution to team success, it looks like The Admiral was the most productive center in the NBA since the 1980s.

[Phenomanul]

Damn right!!! About time someone wrote the truth.

Too bad the article doesn't speak about Shaq's inability to hit anything beyond 8-10 ft away from the basket.


Robinson was also the last Spur to record a 2,000 pt season....

[johnny_J_Jackson]

Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Flux451]

Robinson is the reason I started watching basketball ritually.



Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


gonna be a explosion on the court when artest misbehaves

[Brutalis]

Very true and it's about time DRob got some love.

[Avitus1]

Good read. Robinson will always be my fav Spur.

[samikeyp]

Damn right!!! About time someone wrote the truth.

Too bad the article doesn't speak about Shaq's inability to hit anything beyond 8-10 ft away from the basket.


Robinson was also the last Spur to record a 2,000 pt season....

Duncan had one in 2001-02

[urunobili]

no one will match his greatness

[kobyz]

why Robinson not in the Hall-of-Fame and Ewing is?

[mavs>spurs2]

the dream is number one. crack is bad. those are two true statements

[cherylsteele]

why Robinson not in the Hall-of-Fame and Ewing is?
I believe he is not eligible because he hasn't been retired long enough, I remember reading somewhere he is eligible next year.

[duncan228]

I believe he is not eligible because he hasn't been retired long enough, I remember reading somewhere he is eligible next year.

You're right.

Guidelines For Nomination and Election Into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (http://hoophall.com/ot/bhof-enshrinement.html)

ELIGIBILITY
Candidates must meet the following requirements in order to be eligible for Enshrinement into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (hereafter BHOF):

Player: A player must be fully retired for five years before being eligible for Enshrinement. He/she may then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement. Should a player come out of retirement for a short period of time, as defined by the BHOF, his/her case and eligibility for Enshrinement shall be reviewed on an individual basis.

[benefactor]

Robinson could be argued as the most productive...and I got much love for The Admiral...but even as a Spurs fan I have to say that if I were offered DRob or Dream in their prime to build a team around I would have to take Dream. At his peak his game was completely flawless. Baseline fade away, amazing footwork, shot blocking, character...he was almost the perfect center.

Plus if you look at all the teams from 1990 up to now each of them needed at least 2 legit star players to win it all except Jordan's Bulls and Dream's Rockets.

[DaDakota]

Hakeem owned Robinson........but either team would be happy to have one or both.

DD

[Kobe24Forever]

oh yeah, the writter did fail to mention, how olajuwon made david robinson look stupid(really stupid) in the 95 playoffs, i guess this was why all the blame was shafted to dennis rodman. Productivity wise, i did rather have a player like olajuwon or shaq over robinson anyday. This writter's definition of productivity is homerism.

[rj215]

You're right.

Guidelines For Nomination and Election Into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (http://hoophall.com/ot/bhof-enshrinement.html)

ELIGIBILITY
Candidates must meet the following requirements in order to be eligible for Enshrinement into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (hereafter BHOF):

Player: A player must be fully retired for five years before being eligible for Enshrinement. He/she may then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement. Should a player come out of retirement for a short period of time, as defined by the BHOF, his/her case and eligibility for Enshrinement shall be reviewed on an individual basis.



Robinson, Jordan and Stockton are eligible and locks for next year. A few DRob stats that will always stick with me:

1. The quadruple double vs. Detroit in '94: 34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists, 10 blocks

2. In his third season David was seventh in scoring (23.2 ppg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg), first in blocks (4.49 per game), fifth in steals (2.32 per game) and seventh in field-goal percentage (.551).

3. 71 points Vs the Clips to finish ahead of Snaq for the scoring title.

[fyatuk]

Plus if you look at all the teams from 1990 up to now each of them needed at least 2 legit star players to win it all except Jordan's Bulls and Dream's Rockets.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen. Dream had Clyde Drexler for his second.

Dream didn't have a legit #2 in 94 though.

[Phenomanul]

Robinson could be argued as the most productive...and I got much love for The Admiral...but even as a Spurs fan I have to say that if I were offered DRob or Dream in their prime to build a team around I would have to take Dream. At his peak his game was completely flawless. Baseline fade away, amazing footwork, shot blocking, character...he was almost the perfect center.

Plus if you look at all the teams from 1990 up to now each of them needed at least 2 legit star players to win it all except Jordan's Bulls and Dream's Rockets.

Or a remarkable set of clutch 3-pt shooters to bail you out of close games.... David never had that luxury.

Sam Cassell
Robert Horry
Mario Ellie
Kenny Smith

Talk about the 3-pt team from hell...

[Phenomanul]

Hakeem owned Robinson........but either team would be happy to have one or both.

DD

That was only partially true of one playoff series... but like the article states, it's a 5 vs 5 competition. Robinson was double-teamed the entire series because no one else on the Spurs could buy a bucket -- even when left open. Robinson owned Shaq, Olojuwon, Ewing and Alonzo in head to head matchups before his injury. He nearly pulled off a quadruple double on Shaq's younger frame... a feat he later accomplished against Detroit.

And yeah, some of the blame for the loss in '95 should get shifted to Rodman... when in the world was he ever a three point threat? He nevertheless attempted 5 in the series... :bang

[Phenomanul]

What's amazing is that Spurs fans don't know their history and have let the media mold their perception about who Robinson was as a player. It's downright sad at times.

Believe me when I tell you that if Robinson had played in LA or New York he would have been hailed as one of the greatest of all-time. Fortunately for San Antonio, Robinson didn't seek that particular acolade.

[Phenomanul]

Duncan had one in 2001-02

You are correct... I had forgotten about Duncan's 25 ppg season.

[Showtime24 LAKERS]

Shaq and Robinson definitely are not on the same level. One is one of the all-time great centers and one was only a good complementary player.

[spursfan09]

Shaq and Robinson definitely are not on the same level. One is one of the all-time great centers and one was only a good complementary player.

special ed forum

[Kamnik]

Shaq in his prime was simply better than Robinson was in his...

You could argue that Robinson is a nicer person, but not a player.

[Brutalis]

Shaq and Robinson definitely are not on the same level. One is one of the all-time great centers and one was only a good complementary player.

:lmao

Yeah Robinson was just a complementary player. That's all.

[Brutalis]

What's amazing is that Spurs fans don't know their history and have let the media mold their perception about who Robinson was as a player. It's downright sad at times.

Believe me when I tell you that if Robinson had played in LA or New York he would have been hailed as one of the greatest of all-time. Fortunately for San Antonio, Robinson didn't seek that particular acolade.

Yep.

I just wish DRob had the help Hakeem did when he was in his prime.

[mrspurs]

Damn right!!! About time someone wrote the truth.

Too bad the article doesn't speak about Shaq's inability to hit anything beyond 8-10 ft away from the basket.


Robinson was also the last Spur to record a 2,000 pt season....

If he cant dunk it. You've played excellent defense on Shaq a Snack. There is noway on this planet you can compare Shaq and Drob. One was and still is a man. The other was a immature kid and still is a immature man. Make no mistake, there are men who live to be 70, and are still clueless. I didn't make that rule......just the way it is. :wow

[benefactor]

Shaq had some good moves around the basket for a man his size but ultimately his size is what made him anything close to good. As far as an actual skill set goes he cannot be mentioned in the same sentence with DRob or Dream. Not to mention DRob and Dream were both character guys...which would probably be the deciding factor that would lead me to take either one of them over Shaq from a team building standpoint.

[Phenomanul]

:lol I happen to remember Shaq giving fits to both Robinson and Duncan at the same time. I use to frequent those games and remember Robinson always being in foul trouble trying to guard Shaq. Thats when I noticed how good Duncan really was, because he would go toe to toe with Shaq. Robinson was a unique great player thats for sure.

Duncan came into the league after Robinson's back injury. Again, like most of the media, if you wish to use that period as your basis for defining Robinson's legacy you would be neglecting the years Robinson outclassed the other great centers of his era (including Olojuwon).

So much so that Shaq developed a certain knack for 'randomly' missing games against the Admiral. I remember a certain play in 1994 when Robinson blocked one of Shaq's 'patented' two-handed rim-rockers. An enraged Shaq asked for the ball on the Magic's next possesion and yes... was swatted yet again. Too bad Youtube did not exist in those days; and typical that ESPN would rarely choose to play such clips. Or clips of Robinson 'blealing' the ball from Michael Jordan while attempting a slam dunk and being the first one down the other end of the court for a one-man fastbreak dunk of his own.

P.S. where's whottt when you need him to post all the head-to-head boxscores, displaying said ownage.

[ambchang]

:lol I happen to remember Shaq giving fits to both Robinson and Duncan at the same time. I use to frequent those games and remember Robinson always being in foul trouble trying to guard Shaq. Thats when I noticed how good Duncan really was, because he would go toe to toe with Shaq. Robinson was a unique great player thats for sure.

You mean how Robinson held Shaq to 22.5 ppg in a playoff series, or how he guarded him one-on-one with a floating chip in his back while he was on the downward slope of his career?

Shaq giving Robinson fits? That also explains why the Spurs were the last team Shaq could beat. Your memory is fuzzy.

[I. Hustle]

That is a lot to read since I am here at work. I did get the gist of it though. Robinson is better than Snaq. That sounds about right to me.

[pad300]

Shaq and Robinson definitely are not on the same level. One is one of the all-time great centers and one was only a good complementary player.

Little hard on Shaq there buddy - you may be a Kobe Jock-sniffer, but Shaq carried those Lakers teams...

[wijayas]

Even if my first love is Ewing (lived in New York in the 1990s), I have always wanted DRob to win it all, because he is such a class. Honor. Service. Integrity. Commitment. [Did I read somewhere that DRob scored a perfect SAT and at some point considered becoming a scientist?]

[wijayas]

Ken Rodriguez: Jordan rules, but Robinson's going out on top

San Antonio Express-News

Web Posted : 06/03/2003 12:00 AM

David Robinson felt young again, leaping, laughing, dancing in the magic of the moment.

In Game 6 of the Western Conference finals, he was a sight: A creaking, aging center celebrating a fourth-quarter comeback. A 37-year-old man with bad knees jumping and spinning in front of the Spurs bench.

Remember the snapshot.

It's irony for the ages.

Because the greatest person in league history is leaving the game in a cloud of glory, even as the greatest player leaves in a cloud of acrimony.

Robinson leaves after 14 seasons with a trip to the NBA Finals. Michael Jordan leaves after 15 with a pink slip.

Robinson leaves fired up. Jordan leaves just fired.

Robinson leaves with an untainted image. Jordan leaves with his name smeared by former teammates and a former lover.

Robinson leaves a $9 million gift to a school he built on the city's East Side. Jordan leaves with an ex-mistress seeking $5 million in allegedly promised "hush money" from an affair.

Robinson leaves after the Spurs throw him a party with 19,000 invited guests. Jordan leaves after the Wizards kick him out the front door.

On the day the Wizards knocked King Jordan off his throne — saying he would not return as president of basketball operations — Robinson was helping the Spurs dethrone the Lakers 114-95 in Game 2 of the Western Conference semifinals.

Two aging stars.
Two opposite endings to storied careers.

Two all-time greats.

Two opposite sets of values that mark storied lives.

When they played on the '92 Olympic team together, Jordan and Robinson ran in different late-night circles.

Jordan had his pack of cigar-smoking, poker-playing buddies. Robinson had his Bible and saxophone.

Jordan didn't understand the spiritual passions that made Robinson burn. But Robinson understood that, when he had to, he could lead the Dream Team in scoring, as he did in the '96 gold-medal game.

Seven years later, Jordan, the greatest player in history, and Robinson, one of the 50 greatest, move farther and farther apart: Jordan into retirement, rejected and hurt, Robinson into the NBA Finals, embraced and elated.

"Michael had a much better year than David did, as far as level of play," says Spurs guard Steve Kerr, who once played with Jordan in Chicago. "But it doesn't matter. What matters is winning or losing, so David will go out on a higher note than Michael."

Jordan chose this ending after writing the perfect one in Chicago. He made his final shot with the Bulls, then took parting shots from the Wizards.

He left behind a losing team, an unhappy owner and resentful teammates cheering his departure.

Even in Chicago, where Jordan made his name, some are asking that he stay away.

One columnist wrote: "What we thought would be a nice outlet for Jordan's competitive juices — decision-maker for the Wizards — ended up exposing him as a lazy executive, a poor judge of talent and an unpleasant teammate."

The columnist concluded, "Nobody likes a bully, especially when he's not very good at it anymore. That he used to be our bully isn't enough justification for bringing him back."

In San Antonio, Robinson leaves with the city on its feet, with fans chanting, "One more year! One more year!" as they did at a recent Spurs-Mavericks game.

Rare is the star athlete who retires as a champion. Rocky Marciano did. John Elway did. Jordan did — for three years.

Now Jordan leaves in a haze of ill will as Robinson leaves in a glow of goodwill.

Anyone still want to be Like Mike?

Jordan still has his millions, still has his legacy, still has his place in the world as one of the most popular athletes.

He has everything that Robinson never much cared about — and now Robinson has everything Jordan mostly cared about: A chance to win another title.

Who scripted this NBA farewell?

Certainly not the author of "Nice Guys Finish Last."

Fans will remember Jordan's final, title-clinching shot with the Bulls, his soaring, gravity-defying dunks. I'll remember those, too. But I'll also remember a winter night seven years ago in South Florida.

At 1:30 a.m., the Bulls' bus pulled up to an elegant hotel in Miami. Fresh off a victory in Atlanta, Ron Harper hit the ground and said, "Where are the clubs?"

Because I was researching a story about athletes and groupies, I followed Jordan, Harper and others across the street, where they began partying (Kerr, I wrote in a notebook, stayed behind at the hotel).

Sometime after 2 a.m., I decided to go home. A bar employee said the players remained past 3:30 a.m.

Later that morning, the Bulls canceled their shootaround. That night, the champion Bulls lost to a struggling Heat team, and everyone wondered, "How did that happen?"

I thought of that winter night earlier this spring when, after a Spurs game, fans were invited to listen to Robinson speak at a Fellowship of Christian Athletes meeting.

Two men.

Two NBA treasures.

Jordan played the game like no one ever has.

Robinson put the game in perspective like no one ever has.

"Years from now," Robinson said recently, "no one will remember the details of what I did on the court. It will be trivia."

But years from now, if Robinson closes his career with a second trophy, everyone will remember the perfect ending.

And maybe Michael will wish, if only for that moment, that he could have been Like David.

-----------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]

[Rummpd]

Put it this way - on Dream Team II Robinson started ahead of both Shaq and Ewing.

Robinson, in his prime, was simply a stud, and if he had had a Kobe (or Manu, Bowen, and Parker around him would have won many titles.)

[nfg3]

Both Shaq and Drob will be in th HOF on the first ballet. That is a given to me. Comparing them or for that matter any other player(s) is always tough and has its pros and cons. One issue I would think needs to be taken into account are the refs at the time and how they called the game. The reason for this is pretty simple - I've stated this before and truely believe in this concept: When you market a product, in this case basketkall, by using individuals the compamy of that product (NBA) has to allow the paying customers (fans) to view the spokemen (insert your favorite superstar(s) - Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, AI, Magic, Bird,Duncan...etc.) for the product on a regular basis. They can't be sitting on the bench in foul trouble for extended lengths of time otherwise you are defeating the marketing campaign. Paying customers who come to see their favorite player(s) and rarely see them on the floor will stop coming. The spokesmen must be on the floor for the majority of the time in order for the customer to get the preceived "bang for their buck". If that doesn't happen then they think that they aren't getting their money's worth so why pay for the tickets. I'm old enough to remember the change in marketing from the team to the indidual that happened with the coming of Magic and Bird and shortly thereafter Jordan. This change in marketing proved to be key in turning around the fortunes - the NBA was on the brink of failure as many teams where deep in the red with no end in sight - of the league and making the NBA what it is today. I'm not debating the merits of this but I definitely think this had a huge impact on how the game was going to be called in the future.

Shaq IMHO would have never been as good in the 70's to mid 80's as he has became. He would have been in constant foul trouble due to the fact that his offensive moves to the hole are usually offensive fouls. The refs wouldn't have allowed him to bully defenders in the post like he has done throughout his career. Mendy Rudolph and Earl Strom I don't think would have allowed it and they usually set the tone for how games were called, especially Rudolph.

And anyone defending either player will be able to come up with very good points as to why Shaq/Drob are better than the other. But in the scheme of things it seems that Shaq will be rated by most as the better of the two. More titles and first team all NBAs not to mention the preceived lack of toughness that Drob has suffered from. Shaq had very good touch around the basket and moved well for a man of his size. But I believe that it was his size that made him what he is. He used his shear strength to displace defenders around the basket, even when the defenders had defensive position. Case in point was the 2002 Finals - Lakers vs. Sixers - where Doug Collins used slow mo to show this very thing. He showed how Shaq constantly dipped his shoulder into Mutambo's chest and knocked him several feet backwards. Shaq would then repeat the same move until he was within several feet of the basket and then go for the shot. The majority of the time the refs called the foul on Mutambo and Shaq goes to the lline. Funny how as Shaq's skills started to decline shortly after that those calls started going against him. Or was it the TV exposure by Collins?

This is in no way about Shaq bashing because I believe Shaq didn't do anything wrong. The game changed to allow Sahq to do what he did. He simply took advantage of the way it was being played and made the most of it. But IMHO if the refs called the game like it was called up through the mid 80's Shaq would not have achieved the dominance he did. But as the saying goes "Money talks and BS walks". It is what it is and nothing is going to change that. And we all know the NBA is all about the benjamins.

In a perfect world I think Drob would be the better center but nothing's perfect and everyone tries to make the most of what they are given. I'd take either one as my center with no regrets - both are exceptional players and both will desevedly be inducted to the HOF.

[ambchang]

Even if my first love is Ewing (lived in New York in the 1990s), I have always wanted DRob to win it all, because he is such a class. Honor. Service. Integrity. Commitment. [Did I read somewhere that DRob scored a perfect SAT and at some point considered becoming a scientist?]

I believe he scored a 1320.

[angelbelow]

nice article, i would still take hakeem though.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I remember David would win that IBM award for putting up the best overall statistics almost every year. So this is no surprise.

[johnny_J_Jackson]

You need to be the one to sit on your mother's face.

[Allanon]

I liked DRob as a player and as a gentleman but he can't compare to Shaq and Dream, it's really a different level.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, nobody could stop Shaq except via Hack a Shaq. Without a doubt, Shaq was the most dominant big man in ages.

Dream was 2nd with pretty much as complete an offensive game as you've seen in a big man.

If I was picking a team with these guys in their prime, I'd take
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Dream
4. The Admiral

It's no knock on the Admiral, he was just too much of a nice guy to beat the hell out of his opponents.

[Phenomanul]

I liked DRob as a player and as a gentleman but he can't compare to Shaq and Dream, it's really a different level.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, nobody could stop Shaq except via Hack a Shaq. Without a doubt, Shaq was the most dominant big man in ages.

Dream was 2nd with pretty much as complete an offensive game as you've seen in a big man.

If I was picking a team with these guys in their prime, I'd take
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Dream
4. The Admiral

It's no knock on the Admiral, he was just too much of a nice guy to beat the hell out of his opponents.

And yet before his injury.... he did just that; like drop triple doubles on Shaq's face.

Speaking of fouls, Shaq couldn't even manage to finish games against D-Rob, as David would almost always put him in foul trouble.

As for Olojuwon, he had a 2-3 year stint during his career where he was simply phenomenal... an unstoppable basketball player... Frankly however, even at that level the difference between Olojuwon's and David's impact on the court was small. History will always belittle Robinson's legacy due to that series in 1995. But if one could swap Robinson with Olojuwon on those teams; the Rockets would have won every series. It would be revisionist history to suggest that Robinson was at fault for allowing Olojuwon's Rockets to outplay the Spurs. People seem to forget that it was Houston's 3pt shooting prowess that allowed that team to have such an effective inside-out game. Further still, it was their clutch shooting which catapulted them to Championships. Not to mention that the Rockets had better coaching; or that the Spurs shooters essentially handicapped Robinson every postseason.

But I find myself talking to a brick wall...... Like most Laker fans (even classy ones), fans who would be apalled by the mere suggestion that Shaq was inferior to players such as Olojuwon or Robinson.... You all are incapable of recognizing David's true place in history because you all have been limited by the perception of 'Robinson' that the media has fed you throughout the years.

As far as centers from the 90's are concerned:

Robinson = Olojuwon >> Shaquille > Ewing > Mourning = Mutombo >> Divacs = Sabonis

[ambchang]

Shaq has been overrated for most of his career.

I recognize him as an unstoppable force, and I would even say that people who say his success was strictly due to his size are just haters, as his footwork and moves around the basket is superb. He is also a phenomenal passer as he got older.

However, his defense was average at best. His pick-and-roll defense is atrocious, his man to man defense is average, and his help defense is only slightly above average. He has always been surrounded by great teammates in his career, and in the years that he wasn't surrounded by an absolutely outstanding supporting cast, his team didn't produce any better than any of Robinson's team did.

He missed the playoffs his rookie season, got swept out of the 1st round his second despite having a great young team, swept out of the finals the next year by the same Rockets team that embarrassed the Spurs (btw, I think Hakeem avearged 35 vs. Robinson's single team, and averaged something like 33 vs. a Shaq and Ho Grant double), got swept by the Bulls the following season (I know, they are playing against Jordan and bunch, but still, swept?), then left the Magic and destroyed the franchise that drafted him.

In LA, the team lost 4-1 in the 2nd round to the Jazz despite a relatively loaded roster, got swept the next season by the Jazz, then swept by the Spurs. Curiously, it wasn't until Kobe Bryant blossomed into a bona fide superstar that the Lakers see great success (not to mention having contributions from Glen Rice, Ron Harder, Rick Fox, Fisher, Horry, Malone, Payton through the years).

Compare this to Robinson's supporting cast earlier on in his career. There wasn't anybody capable of generating any offense outside of Elliott, and he wasn't even being surrounded by any kind of reasonable outside shooters. Avery Johnson as starting PG? Vinny Del Negro? The year Robinson got any help, he made it to the second round and lost a hard fought series to the Blazers.

As for Hakeem, look what happened when his teammates suck, he misses playoffs. Robinson on the other hand, hauled his team to the playoffs one season by leading the team in assists AND scoring. You heard right, he led the team in assists as a center. And what is more appalling is that he averaged 4.8 assists per game. This means that his PG couldn't even average 4.8 assists per game. Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro were 2nd and 3rd in assists on that team. The other players are Dennis Rodman, Dale Ellis (way past his prime), Negele Knight, JR Reid, Terry Cummings (post injury), Antoine Carr and Lloyd Daniels. THe team finished 55-27, and lost 3-1 in the first round to the Jazz. Was it because Robinson choked in the playoffs? Revisionist history said yes because he average 10 points less and shot considerable worse in the playoffs, but anyone who actually watched the game, or had any common sense would understand all the Jazz needed to do is to sag the middle, and dare the likes of Dale Ellis (who averaged a whopping 10.5ppg on 39.5% shooting), Negele Knight, Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro beat you from the outside, or you can just leave Dennis Rodman open to take 5 3 pters in a 4 game series, making ZERO of them. Even better, foul Rodman, he made 1 of 6 in the series anyways.

Thing is, Robinson went through something similar every single year in the mid-ninties. His got killed in the playoffs, but what the hell are they even doing in the playoffs anyways? Those teams have no business even BEING in the playoffs, let alone having year after year of 50+ wins. If Robinson would have tanked, faked an injury or something to get the team into the lottery, maybe the Spurs would have had a different supporting cast and the Admiral would be viewed in a different light.

[ambchang]

So what you are saying is Robinson is a Dirk:blah

Why, because Dirk won defensive player of the years, 4 All-NBA first team, and had crappy teammates throughout his career? Let me see, Steve Nash = Avery Johnson, Michael Finley = Sean Elliott, Josh Howard = Dennis Rodman, Jerry Stackhouse = Vinny Del Negro, Devin Harris = Negele Knight.

Great comparison, you have demonstrated your comprehension skills perfectly.


I do think Ronbinson was a much better player than Shaq. Shaq was never the leader of those title years in LA or Miami. Wade and Kobe were the driving forces for those teams. Notice how the media turned on Wade and Kobe after Shaq left.

Wade and Hardaway got injured after Shaq left, and before Hardaway career was destroyed, he played great for the Magic, with or without Shaq. Wade has regained some of his explosiveness, and is once again wreaking havoc. In fact, Wade played well BEFORE Shaq joined the Heat, and was the clear leader in 06, there isn’t even a question about it.

Kobe on the other hand, led the league in scoring, won an MVP, led the Lakers to the finals (then got humiliated), led an undermanned team to playoffs and heartbreaking losses against the Suns. What media has turned on Kobe? He has been a perennial revenue generating leader for the league, and the media LOVES him, they voted him MVP, what more do you want?


I find it strange that in another thread there is another debate about Duncan and Bird, and as expected, Spurs fans have made every case as to why Duncan is a better player than Bird:wow. Spurs fans claim because of Duncans stats and individual accomplishments he should get the nod. Well, if we apply that same logic, Shaq is much better than Duncan and Robinson.

Duncan’s stats are better than Bird’s? That’s really news to me. What I do know is that Duncan trumps Bird in individual accomplishments (with a weaker supporting cast but also weaker competition). Duncan was by far the better defender, and Bird the better offensive player. The two are at least on the same level, I am not getting into who is better.

And Shaq? He won an MVP, 3 finals MVP, 1st team all NBAs (not until Hakeem and Robinson were down and broken, he couldn’t even touch those during Hakeem and Robinson’s prime), all-star games, 1 scoring title, no rebounding titles and no block shot titles.

Robinson won an MVP, 1st team all NBAs, all-star games, a scoring title, a rebounding title, a blocked shot title.


Oh, and Duncan shouldnt even be mentioned in the same category as Bird.

Please explain.


As good as Robinson was, his greatest moment in the eyes of NBA fans is when he was destroyed by Hakeem.

hW4uXlRGAF0

Well duh! The whole point of the article and subsequent threads is to illustrate how ill-informed and overall ignorant an average NBA fan is. Glad to know that you belong to that group.

Perhaps you can start talking about specific points of my post where you don’t agree with, such as Shaq’s defense, his team success with a non-all-star padded cast, Hakeem’s playoff woes before he was surrounded by a great 3 point shooting team, or Robinson’s accomplishments with a similar, if not inferior supporting cast as the other two mentioned.

[ambchang]

All words, no substance!!! You pretty much defeat your own argument. You keep talking about how Robinson played with scrubs, but at the same time his team lead the league in wins the year he won MVP. And what happened??? He pulled a Dirk and got his ass handed to him by Hakeem. If there was never a Tim Duncan, Robinson would have gone down just like Dirk is going down.

I was the one pulling out the stats, you were the one talking on and on and on with nothing to back up, so yeah, I agree with you, you are basically “All words, no substance!!!”

Robinson led his team to the best regular season of Spurs history as the MVP of the league. His supporting cast was so strong, it consists of Avery Johnson as the starting point and Vinny Del Negro as the starting SG. Sean Elliott was the closest thing to an all-star that year, with Dennis Rodman a close second. Of course we all know how Rodman chose to leave Horry wide open time and time again for open jumpshots, shoot 3pters to screw the game up, and decided to quit on the team on more than one game. But no, it was all Robinson’s fault because he was double and tripled every time he touched the ball.

The last time Shaq had only a marginal all-star and a bunch of below average players on his team, he got swept out of the 1st round.


I never said Birds stats are better than Duncan. Those idiots on the other thread that are trying to make a case for Duncan with those statments. Bird is pretty much better than Duncan at every aspect of the game.

You could say that Duncan is a better defender but even that is debatable. Duncan has matched up with the likes of KG, SHAQ, YAO, AMARE, D-HOW AND DIRK. He has yet to shut down any of those guys. Duncan is not really noted as a stopper like Hakeem was. He gets his credit but he is not in the category of Bird. Duncan is far from a great leader! I remember him staying in college to get that title and always came up short. He was one of the players that totally embarrased the US team in the olympics.

Bird and Duncan are about the same as a defender? Which planet are you from? Guess what, look up the all-defensive teams Duncan was on, then check out the ones Bird was on, and finally look up who chose those all-D teams, and unless you think you are a better judgement of defensive abilities than NBA coaches, you are just basically saying that you are full of shit (no surprises there).

Funny how you brought up college and come up short, could you remind me when did Bird and Hakeem won their NCAA titles?

Were you even watching the Olympics that year? Marbury rings a bell?


In my opinion, there are only a few guys that could do whatever they wanted to, whenever they wanted to, and Duncan is not one of those guys... Bird was.

In my opinion, there are only a few guys that could do whatever they wanted to, whenever they wanted to, both Duncan and Bird were those players. Blow me.


Robinson on the other was great in just about every aspect of the game... he just wasnt clutch. And thats what seperates certain players when it comes to debates. T-mac and Kobe have the same game, but Kobe is clutch, Duncan and KG are both great, but Duncan is clutch.

Kobe is real clutch, a player who decides to shoot every possession when his team is down is bound to get a few games in, but people don’t remember the ones where he shoots his team to defeats. Want proof? Check 2004 and 2008 Finals.

And no, T-Mac does NOT have the same game as Bryant, Bryant is a much better player, and it’s not even close. People see two SG/SF player who has a slashing game, can score a lot of points, and automatically put the two together for comparison, but fact is, Bryant is a much better outside shooter, and handle the ball better, and can be a better facilitator if he wanted to.

Robinson on the other hand, does not have much post up game, he was more of a drive and dunk player. And him not being clutch? Check his numbers when he had Rod Strickland as his PG, it’s much easier to be clutch when you have a PG who can actually get you the ball and not allow the opposition to collapse their whole defense on you.


Now back to the original thread. Robinson is in no way shape or form the most productive center Since the 80's, even he woud tell you that Shaq, Hakeem, and "Duncan who is a center"... was more productive than Robinson.

Because you are so thoroughly broken down the arguments in the original article I bet. He won IBM awards (which measures statistical production) for 5 years, O'Neal won 2, and Hakeem once. So why is that not productive?


Spurs fans seem to think Hakeem ahs two goo years as a pro, but his stats and his play in big game situations tell a different story.

What big game situation other than those two years? Perhaps 1986, but other than that? How quickly you forget about the Suns. You know where the name Clutch cities originate from? Check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_City


OWNED!!!
Dy-0RWbbzd8



DERRICK COLEMAN IS BETTER THAN SHAQ BASED ON ONE DUNK!!!
0A6G8t6zsyI

[ambchang]

Finally, first we got some Mav fan idiot coming in saying that Robinson was only a good shot blocker but not a good defender, then we have this dumbass Laker fan coming in saying that Duncan is only marginally better than Bird on defense.

WTH? Do these guys know how defense is played? Robinson and Duncan are two of the greatest defenders in the history of the league, and has the stats (both team and individual), awards and accolades to prove it. If you guys don't want to be embarrassed in a public forum, go read a book on NBA history, or subscribe to NBA TV and watch some NBA classics before opening your yap on a subject where you have NO knowledge of.

You don't see me coming in here yapping about how Dan Marino sucked, right? Because I wouldn't know what I was talking about if I did. Now do us a favour and learn about Duncan and Robinson, especially their defense, before you come in and act like some guy who couldn't have watched basketball for more than 18 months.

[Phenomanul]

More media garbage taking cheap shots at Robinson.

If the difference between Olojuwon and Robinson was so great, explain how Olojuwon completely dominated Robinson to the tune of a one point win? I guess it neglects the fact that the series was decided by two game winning shots from Houston's 3pt specialists.

[sook]

Robinson was embarrassed to say that he thought he guarded him well, please i like Robinson but that is bullshit lol.

[sook]

You confusing individual play with team play. Sure, the games were close, but the matchup of Hakeem vs Robinson was a slaughter. Infact, never before in the history of any sport has a player led his team to the most wins in a season, given the MVP award, and the same day get outplayed so bad. Except for maybe Dirk:toast. You saw the video, Robinson is still dizzy from the "DREAM SHAKE.":lmao

amen.

[my2sons]

Robinson could be argued as the most productive...and I got much love for The Admiral...but even as a Spurs fan I have to say that if I were offered DRob or Dream in their prime to build a team around I would have to take Dream. At his peak his game was completely flawless. Baseline fade away, amazing footwork, shot blocking, character...he was almost the perfect center.

Plus if you look at all the teams from 1990 up to now each of them needed at least 2 legit star players to win it all except Jordan's Bulls and Dream's Rockets.

Look at Dave's supporting cast over his entire career and tell me something. Hakeem although I give the slight edge to won his two back to back and fell right back into the nightmare dave had his whole career of a lack of a supporting cast. Some of those 50+ win seasons were all david robinson. his supporting cast thanks to cheap owners who get alot of credit for keeping the spurs in town tried to splash with big coaching names and had bob bass keep the team floating with low budget casts. David will always be my favorite spur and it was when he got a supporting cast that the trophy's came and timmy has been blessed with supporting casts.

[IronMexican]

Robinson was a great player, but Dream and Shaq are both better players.
Give me any one of those three in their prime any day of the week.

[my2sons]

I liked DRob as a player and as a gentleman but he can't compare to Shaq and Dream, it's really a different level.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, nobody could stop Shaq except via Hack a Shaq. Without a doubt, Shaq was the most dominant big man in ages.

Dream was 2nd with pretty much as complete an offensive game as you've seen in a big man.

If I was picking a team with these guys in their prime, I'd take
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Dream
4. The Admiral

It's no knock on the Admiral, he was just too much of a nice guy to beat the hell out of his opponents.

I have no idea, but how many quadrupple doubles did they get

[IronMexican]

You take the top 6-8 centers in history and subract their best attribute and give them all to one player, and you would come up with Hakeem. Saying that Robinson was not as good as Hakeem is not an insult to Robinson. The comparison in itself is similair to Laker fans comparing Kobe to Jordan. Kobe is our guy, but Lakers fans know that Jordan was the best!

Man, just think if Jordan had played for the Lakers... even Jesus would be beneath him:king

pretty much.

[Phenomanul]

You confusing individual play with team play. Sure, the games were close, but the matchup of Hakeem vs Robinson was a slaughter. Infact, never before in the history of any sport has a player led his team to the most wins in a season, given the MVP award, and the same day get outplayed so bad. Except for maybe Dirk:toast. You saw the video, Robinson is still dizzy from the "DREAM SHAKE.":lmao

This argument confirms that your are but mere sheeple. :wakeup

Basketball is a team sport.

Chew on this; as good as Jordan was, if he hadn't been surrounded with 3pt specialists and a complimentary all-star player he would have attained as many NBA championships as Charles Barkley. Or maybe just 1 or 2... definitely not 6.

Would that have made him any less great talent-wise?

[Phenomanul]

You want more stats... I'll give them to you all day!!

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

Advanatage Hakeem... he sustained his career numbers for an extra four years.


Half of Robinson's career was played on a bad back. That would be like suggesting that Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway were mediocre ballers by arbitrarily gauging their play only after their injuries. Fact of the matter was that they were All-NBA 1st Teamers before their injuries.

As for any argument that suggests that Olojuwon's longevity in the league makes him a greater player.... Well to that I say, baloney. Robinson missed two seasons due to his commitment to the NAVY, another the year he was injured, and he literally could have played an extra year at the level he was playing in 2003 had he chosen to do so... Imagine that, the Lakers wouldn't have beat the Spurs in 2004 had that been the case (though that would all be speculation).

Oh... and you may as well list Robinson's and Olojuwon's steals per game and blocks per game averages as well. Or what? Do you feel like that would derail your argument that Shaq was a better than the two? Let's not forget, that is the point you are ultimately trying to make.




1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player.
That's not Robinson's fault. In his prime he never had the supporting cast Olojuwon had. I guess people are obtuse on the matter when they want to be.


2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
As he should... the dude played soccer growing up; skills which enhance the basketball skillset.

BTW Robinson's 'go-to' move was dunking on everyone who got in his way. Robinson quietly led the league in this category for like 4-5 seasons. Oh... but when Shaq led the league in this same category... the media couldn't contain themselves from proclaiming he was the game's most unstoppable force. :rolleyes



3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up
I wasn't aware that the NBA playoff series format in 1995 was a 1 vs. 1.



No disputing those facts.
Sounds more like a list of weak arguments.


Sure, Robinson got injured in '97 but he followed it up with a strong season during Duncans rookie season. After Duncan's rookie season, Robinson became what we all recognize him as today... "One of Duncans role players."

If by strong, you mean 80% of his production output well then you are making an argument on my behalf.



Oh, and Shaq's career numbers are much better than Robinsons also, and he has more rings, which makes him more productive.
Do I need to get those stats for you too???

No need... the original thread article already summarized and analyzed said stats.... I guess you didn't like the conclusion, and stopped reading.

How's this for a stat though... Shaq has a rather poignant statistic that sticks out like a sore thumb; the number of times he has been swept out of the playoffs; 4

[sook]

Of the few times i agree with LakaLuva, he hit the nail, 100% correct.


I had the honor of meeting Hakeem and i still get on myself for the only thing i mustered up to say,"How tall are you?"

God of all things i could have said i asked something i could have found on google.

[Phenomanul]

Of the few times i agree with LakaLuva, he hit the nail, 100% correct.


I had the honor of meeting Hakeem and i still get on myself for the only thing i mustered up to say,"How tall are you?"

God of all things i could have said i asked something i could have found on google.

If you read my post on the previous page... I pretty much stated that Olojuwon and Robinson were equally phenomenal... but both better than Shaq. That the only reason that 'The Dream' is considered better than 'The Admiral' in the view of the casual NBA fan (and the media) is because of the outcome of their one lone series in '95 where Olojuwon's team played better than Robinson's Spurs. A series, mind you, that was swung by two separate daggers from Houston's long range bombers. And given that context, one that should factor into the relevance of the head to head match-up between the teams' star centers - they were essentially diminished to bystanders on the games' deciding plays; Olojuwon saw his teammates nail their shots, while Robinson saw his own shooters brick theirs.

You believe Shaq was better than Olojuwon? I don't. lakaluva, however is trying to make that argument.

[jcrod]

You want more stats... I'll give them to you all day!!

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

Advanatage Hakeem... he sustained his career numbers for an extra four years.

1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up

No disputing those facts.

Sure, Robinson got injured in '97 but he followed it up with a strong season during Duncans rookie season. After Duncan's rookie season, Robinson became what we all recognize him as today... "One of Duncans role players."

Oh, and Shaq's career numbers are much better than Robinsons also, and he has more rings, which makes him more productive. Do I need to get those stats for you too???


The career stats is stupid. Hakeem was the man in all his yrs with the Rockets. Drob let Duncan be the man when he came on board. So obviously his numbers declined.


Complementary player, Really? Are you that stupid.
Robinson always owned Hakeem head to head and has more wins than him head to head same with Shaq. Everybody only remembers the 95 series where Hakeem was dominate. AND he only outplayed Robinson because idiot Hill left him isolated on defense. Rudy sent double triple teams at Robinson at the other end.

Hakeem was a better offense player, Robinson was better defensively. Skill wise both are equal all together, but Hakeem get a slight edge for being aggressive. Unfortunately Robinson didn't have that killer instinct, if he had he would be in a different level than everybody. He was a freak of nature.

Shaq is all body and no skill. Put him outside 5 feet from the rim and he sucks. Take his size away from him and he is a scrub.

[Many PackYao]

Robinson always owned Hakeem head to head

That's incorrect sir -
Reg season stats head to head
R Robinson: 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG Olajuwon: 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG
Playoffs head to head
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG

Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson, but the Spurs as a team were better than the Rockets in the reg season.


Hakeem was a better offense player, Robinson was better defensively. Wrong, Olajuwon averaged more steals and blocks per game than Robinson.



Shaq is all body and no skill. Put him outside 5 feet from the rim and he sucks. Take his size away from him and he is a scrub
I agree with this about Shaq.

[Tmac&Luther]

Hakeem was a better offense player, Robinson was better defensively.

Robinson was not a better defensive player.....that's just wrong, Olajuwan was one of the greatest defenders that has ever stepped on a NBA court. Hakeem would also never allow anyone to undress him the way He undressed Robinson....that simply would NOT happen, Hakeem had to much pride and he simply wouldn't allow it.


History will always belittle Robinson's legacy due to that series in 1995. But if one could swap Robinson with Olojuwon on those teams; the Rockets would have won every series. It would be revisionist history to suggest that Robinson was at fault for allowing Olojuwon's Rockets to outplay the Spurs. People seem to forget that it was Houston's 3pt shooting prowess that allowed that team to have such an effective inside-out game. Further still, it was their clutch shooting which catapulted them to Championships. Not to mention that the Rockets had better coaching; or that the Spurs shooters essentially handicapped Robinson every postseason..... You all are incapable of recognizing David's true place in history because you all have been limited by the perception of 'Robinson' that the media has fed you throughout the years.

As far as centers from the 90's are concerned:

Robinson = Olojuwon



Hakeem's title runs (http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/history/olajuwon_hof_championshiprun.asx&video=blank)

(fast foward to 6:05)

The difference between Robinson and Hakeem wasn't just three point shooting, that's just completely retarded. Hakeem was a extreme competitor and had to fight his entire career on bad teams before he finally got decent talent around him........the truth is, if Ralph Sampson never got hurt and if the Rockets didn't have their drug problems, Hakeem would have even more rings....

Hakeem is > than David Robinson....his place in history was and forever will be cemented as that. Saying Hakeem = Robinson is like saying Ali = Fraizer which is completely stupid. That's the reason why "Ali/Fraizer III" was such a epic fight.....like Hakeem, Ali also cemented his place in history...above Joe Fraizer.

P.S.

David Robinson was a complete dumbass for not mentioning Hakeem in his MVP acceptence speach.......he was just begging to get humiliated infront of a world audience.

[Brutalis]

Phenomanul has owned this thread.


Oh, and fuck the asshole that went into my account and tried to edit my post... I caught it little bitch!!!

???

[Many PackYao]

Also, Olajuwon did something no other player has done before and that's win NBA MVP/Defensive player of year/ NBA Finals MVP all in the same year.

[duncan228]

Oh, and fuck the asshole that went into my account and tried to edit my post... I caught it little bitch!!!


When I was posting a few posts ago some lil shit had spammed my post to FAKER, FAKERS, FAKERS... like a little bitch. I dont know how it was done but I caught it.

Was it your post where you mention Sean Elliott? :lol

[Slippy]

the truth is, if Ralph Sampson never got hurt and if the Rockets didn't have their drug problems, Hakeem would have even more rings....

.


You want the whole truth qualified by an if. IF Hakeem ever got his wish to be traded in 92 you wouldn't have any championships to talk about.

[anakha]

You Spurs fans are safe as long as you hang on to Duncans nuts!!!

Talk about going off on a tangent. :lol

Way to represent Laker fans everywhere.

[Phenomanul]

Mama warned you about those drugs. You have completely misinterpreted my posts. Nowhere in my posts did I state that Shaq was even close to Hakeem... NOWHERE!!! However, I did say that I think Robinson is better than Shaq.

Listen man... FUCK STATS!!! I dont need stats to determine who is better than who. You idiots are the ones who are making a big deal about stats. I just posted them to prove the other clown wrong... and I did, and now you coming with all those excuses for Robinson... as if Hakeem never had major injuries.

Look man, I shouldnt even need stats to prove that Hakeem is the better player. If you cant see that then Im wasting my time and I wont address you anymore on this issue:toast


Hmmmm... let me see...


oh yeah:



Oh, and Shaq's career numbers are much better than Robinsons also, and he has more rings, which makes him [Shaq] more productive.
Do I need to get those stats for you too???

Right...

[ambchang]

Oh, and you want to talk about stats!!! If you respond with more of your gibberish after this post you should be put out of your misery!!! Robinson was so much like Dirk in his lack of leadership and big time play that it even shows in the stats. Robinson was rated a top 50 player in the league, but see if you can find him on the top 50 best playoff performers. Now dont try to argue that Magic is not on that list because we all know that Magic never tried to lead his team in scoring, although he could have.

I didn’t realize that top 50 scorers by average in playoffs = 50 best playoff performers. Going by your definition, Allen Iverson is the 2nd greatest player in NBA history. Tracy McGrady > Kobe Bryant. Hell, Vince Carter, read that, Carter, is better than Shaquille O’Neal.

Never mind the fact that Robinson played 70 of his 123 playoffs games (that’s 57%) AFTER he had a series back injury that all but wiped out his career. Never mind that he was casted as the defensive specialist later on in his career. He should probably be more like Shaq and drag teams down like he did with Miami or the Suns now by insisting that he is the man and refuse to give up the spotlight.


But according to you... Robinson is the most productive center since the 80', well lests see if his stats prove it... MR STATISTICAL ASSHOLE!!!

http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp

Thanks for showing me that you can’t read either. The blog wasn’t originally posted by me, the post wasn’t even originally posted by me. I agreed that Robinson was the most productive center since the 80’s, and was verified by his IBM awards (statistically), win shares (ranked #1 twice, 2nd twice, 3rd once, 4th twice, and 5th thrice in his career, compared to Olajuwon who was twice once, and 3rd twice, and O’neal who was 1st twice, 2nd thrice, and 4th once), and a statistical analysis that looks to more than just ppg in the playoffs.

Speaking of which, Pierce roundly outplayed Kobe in their only matchup in the playoffs. Is Pierce better than Kobe?



You want more stats... I'll give them to you all day!!

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

Advanatage Hakeem... he sustained his career numbers for an extra four years.

Wow, you can read career stats! Maybe you will understand what statistics mean when you graduate from high school. Read the original article, then remind yourself that statistical analysis is more than comparing career stats, especially when not one of them played half career with a floating chip in his back.

And the 0.7 ppg and 0.5 rpg so convincing shows that Hakeem owned Robinson throughout his career. Thanks for sharing that, I didn’t even realize that the difference was so miniscule despite Robinson playing injured half of his career, and lacks any sort of supporting cast to take away pressure away from him in the other half.


1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player

Chauncey Billups > John Stockton
Dwayne Wade > Kobe Bryant
Paul Pierce > Charles Barkley


2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson

And ….. ? Robinson has a better driving game than Hakeem. So?


3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up

Paul Pierce > Kobe Bryant


No disputing those facts.

Just that those facts meant nothing.


Sure, Robinson got injured in '97 but he followed it up with a strong season during Duncans rookie season. After Duncan's rookie season, Robinson became what we all recognize him as today... "One of Duncans role players."

Strong season indeed. He went from averaging close to 40 mpg down to 34, the 3 seasons before his injury he averaged 29.8, 27.6 and 25 ppg , the season he came back he averaged 21.6, he was routinely averaging 12 rpg before his injury and he averaged 10.6 afterwards, his blocks went down, he played 73 games, he couldn’t drive to the basket like he used to, he couldn’t elevate like he used to. Fact that he could muster one more season like that speaks to how great he really was.


Oh, and Shaq's career numbers are much better than Robinsons also, and he has more rings, which makes him more productive. Do I need to get those stats for you too???

Good for you, at least you can write and illustrate clearly that you can’t read at all. Work on your comprehension skills and you can complete the communication cycle.

Let me remind you of my stance.

Robinson was vastly underrated in his career, and your points throughout this thread all but confirms it.
Shaq is overrated throughout his career.
Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq are on the same level.

[Phenomanul]

Robinson was not a better defensive player.....that's just wrong, Olajuwan was one of the greatest defenders that has ever stepped on a NBA court.

As was Robinson. I believe their bpg and spg averages were very similar. This however is a very subjective comparison. I will say this however, on a rebounding basis, Robinson's rebounding rate as the ratio of available rebounds is otherworldly; the fact that he managed double-digit rebounding even after Rodman arrived is a testament to that fact.


Hakeem would also never allow anyone to undress him the way He undressed Robinson....that simply would NOT happen, Hakeem had to much pride and he simply wouldn't allow it.

OK that is such a red-herring argument. I remember plays where Mugsy Bogues dribbled through Hakeem's legs twice on the same play. You will find many instances where any quality NBA player can undress another. Olojuwon's 'dream shake' on Robinson was spectacular, but using that one play to suggest he was greater is stupid beyond reproof. Unfortunately you, and most media sheeple, make that claim repeatedly.

I didn't hear any Spurs fans suggesting that Robinson was better than Jordan after the game when he stuffed Jordan on two consecutive possesions, and then ran down the court to dunk over him. It would be a ludicrous argument.

Or while we're at it... could anyone make an argument that the warehouse worker who beat LeBron at H-O-R-S-E is better than LeBron James??? Of course not! The fact that he made a complete fool out of him on not one but two rounds of H-O-R-S-E is irrelevant!!!!

Yoda, "Single data points do not an argument make".




Hakeem's title runs (http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/history/olajuwon_hof_championshiprun.asx&video=blank)

(fast foward to 6:05)

The difference between Robinson and Hakeem wasn't just three point shooting, that's just completely retarded.

If it's so retarded; and that is your argument. Then feel free to explain why two of Houston's wins in that series were decided by last second heroics from Houston's clutch shooters? Your argument would hold weight if the Rockets had completely dismantled the Spurs. That was not the case.



Hakeem was a extreme competitor and had to fight his entire career on bad teams before he finally got decent talent around him........the truth is, if Ralph Sampson never got hurt and if the Rockets didn't have their drug problems, Hakeem would have even more rings....

Hakeem is > than David Robinson....his place in history was and forever will be cemented as that. Saying Hakeem = Robinson is like saying Ali = Fraizer which is completely stupid. That's the reason why "Ali/Fraizer III" was such a epic fight.....like Hakeem, Ali also cemented his place in history...above Joe Fraizer.


OK... whatever helps you sleep at night. It doesn't change the fact that both you and I have opined on the matter. I, however have stated all along that this is my opinion. Others have disingenuously tried to pass off their counterpoints as fact.



P.S.

David Robinson was a complete dumbass for not mentioning Hakeem in his MVP acceptence speach.......he was just begging to get humiliated infront of a world audience.

Oh... is that the game the Spurs lost by 1 measly point. Where Mario Elie knocked in two three-pointers in the final four minutes of the game? Where Horry swooshes the dagger? Where the Spurs coaching staff could not devise any plays to free up Robinson from double teams because Del Negro and Ellis were missing wide open jumpers? Let's just go ahead and fault Robinson for all that; everyone seems to do so already.

[Rummpd]

I was at a regular season game where Robinson in Houston put 54 on Hakeem. Both great players and essentially a tie statistically, and people also overlook the fact that Robinson also have good numbers in the series vs. Hakeem that his detractors shoot him down for. A true ranking puts them as 4A and 4B (I personally would have to go with Hakeem by a hair but only by a hair) in great NBA centers behind only Kareem, Chamberlain and Russell (in whatever order you want as they were each fabulous and IMO = Kareem the best ever at any position, for what that is worth, looking at the body of both his NBA and college work, in fact, his career is actually above Jordans if you look at MVPS and rings).

The thing about Robinson is that with a true center early in his career he would have played a Kevin Garnett type of game as Robinson was as pure an athlete as anyone to ever step an NBA court. Shaq's fans can make a potentially valid case of putting him up there above or equal to either Hakeem or Robinson, but defensively Hakeem and Robinson far above Shaq at their primes and down the stretch in a game they never were the liability at the line that Shaq was.

[IronMexican]

Can you guys really not admit Dream was better than Robinson? then you guys wanna rip Laker fans? jesus.:rolleyes

[Rummpd]

See my note - Dream by a hair over Robinson (but Robinson never had the talent around him Dream did until late in his career - that is undeniable.)

By the way you got to admire both as much as anyone who have ever played in the NBA (along with Motumbo's work in his home country) as Hakeem has quietly built a business empire that is empowering a lot of people, showed his religous beliefs by fasting during key games and is greatly respected; Robinson's actions off the courts speak for themselves in service above self.

You put a team with both of them on it with any decent 4-5 players around them and it would have been unbeatable - no one could have driven the lane against a combo of Robionson and Hakeem and they could have scored inside and on the wing with impunity.

[Rummpd]

See my note - Dream by a hair over Robinson (but Robinson never had the talent around him Dream did until late in his career - that is undeniable.)

By the way you got to admire both as much as anyone who have ever played in the NBA (along with Motumbo's work in his home country) as Hakeem has quietly built a business empire that is empowering a lot of people, showed his religous beliefs by fasting during key games and is greatly respected; Robinson's actions off the courts speak for themselves in service above self.)

You put a team with both of them on it with any decent 4-5 players around them and it would have been unbeatable - no one could have driven the lane against a combo of Robinson and Hakeem and they could have scored inside and on the wing with impunity.

The NBA was a better place for both of these NBA top tier in all regards caliber greats to have played in it, and the world benefits from them outside of the game.

[Phenomanul]

Can you guys really not admit Dream was better than Robinson? then you guys wanna rip Laker fans? jesus.:rolleyes

The point of the original article was that despite what many would think... statistically, win%-wise, productivity-wise that

Robinson > Shaq.

Laker fans came in here slinging mud and threw Hakeem into the picture. As if that made any difference in the comparison between Shaq and Robinson.

I've stated repeatedly that to me, Robinson and Hakeem were equals - my arguments have said as much, pointing to factors that many fail to consider in that on-going, subjective, argument.

Laker fan is just bitter that their overrated center could have been better and brought more championships to LA if:

1. He had just managed to learn how to make his free-throws.
2. He had given a damn about his conditioning.
3. He had not divorced himself from Kobe/Phil
4. He had anygame whatsoever more than 8 feet away from the basket.
5. He had taken his defensive assignments more seriously.

So rather than contemplate the heights Shaq could have achieved, and further glories the Lakers could have attained, they choose to diminish the legacy of one of the greatest centers ever. As if that mattered.... meh.... Whatever suits their fancy.

[jcrod]

That's incorrect sir -
Reg season stats head to head
R Robinson: 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG Olajuwon: 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG
Playoffs head to head
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG

Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson, but the Spurs as a team were better than the Rockets in the reg season.

Wrong, Olajuwon averaged more steals and blocks per game than Robinson.

I agree with this about Shaq.

I don't have the time to go look it up, so I'll take your word. I was going off memory of someone else stating it a while back. I do believe Robinson was a better defender. Hakeem was the better help defender.

[jcrod]

Robinson was not a better defensive player.....that's just wrong, Olajuwan was one of the greatest defenders that has ever stepped on a NBA court. Hakeem would also never allow anyone to undress him the way He undressed Robinson....that simply would NOT happen, Hakeem had to much pride and he simply wouldn't allow it.





Hakeem's title runs (http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/history/olajuwon_hof_championshiprun.asx&video=blank)

(fast foward to 6:05)

The difference between Robinson and Hakeem wasn't just three point shooting, that's just completely retarded. Hakeem was a extreme competitor and had to fight his entire career on bad teams before he finally got decent talent around him........the truth is, if Ralph Sampson never got hurt and if the Rockets didn't have their drug problems, Hakeem would have even more rings....

Hakeem is > than David Robinson....his place in history was and forever will be cemented as that. Saying Hakeem = Robinson is like saying Ali = Fraizer which is completely stupid. That's the reason why "Ali/Fraizer III" was such a epic fight.....like Hakeem, Ali also cemented his place in history...above Joe Fraizer.

P.S.

David Robinson was a complete dumbass for not mentioning Hakeem in his MVP acceptence speach.......he was just begging to get humiliated infront of a world audience.

:lol Hakeem wouldn't allow it, Rudy wouldn't allow it. Again the only reason Hakeem dominated the series was because Hill left Robinson alone and Rudy would send double and triple teams at Robinson. Any great offensive player can undress someone.

I said above that their drive to succeed is what separated them. Robinson just didn't feel he needed it to validate himself, he walked the walk.

[ambchang]

Can you guys really not admit Dream was better than Robinson? then you guys wanna rip Laker fans? jesus.:rolleyes

I simply said Robinson was underrated.
Hakeem was better than Robinson because of those two peak years.
However, Robinson was at least in Hakeem's group, the negative image of him not being able to carry his team is all misleading and due mostly to his subpar supporting cast.

[jcrod]

That's incorrect sir -
Reg season stats head to head
R Robinson: 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG Olajuwon: 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG
Playoffs head to head
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG

Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson, but the Spurs as a team were better than the Rockets in the reg season.

Wrong, Olajuwon averaged more steals and blocks per game than Robinson.

I agree with this about Shaq.

I guess I remembered wins.

First meeting: Dec. 14, 1989 (at Houston)
Final score: San Antonio 104, Houston 100

Regular-season meetings: 42
Robinson won 30, Olajuwon won 12

Postseason meetings: 6
Olajuwon won 4, Robinson won 2

[Strike]

why Robinson not in the Hall-of-Fame and Ewing is?

Not to worry. As soon as he's eligible, he's a 1st ballot hall-of-famer.

No question.

[Mark in Austin]

wow. If you're going by head to head numbers, then based on the 2005 PHX series Amare>Duncan.

genius.

[Many PackYao]

I guess I remembered wins.

First meeting: Dec. 14, 1989 (at Houston)
Final score: San Antonio 104, Houston 100

Regular-season meetings: 42
Robinson won 30, Olajuwon won 12

Postseason meetings: 6
Olajuwon won 4, Robinson won 2
It's simple as this-Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson and the rest of the Spurs team outplayed the Rockets in their reg season matchups. But, out of those wins the Rockets had, which are the ones that mattered the most?Olajuwon and the Rockets went through two great teams with two great centers and beat them on their way to a ring that year.

[Many PackYao]

wow. If you're going by head to head numbers, then based on the 2005 PHX series Amare>Duncan.

genius.
Amare/Duncan still had similar numbers in that series and in reg season battles.
But Olajuwon vs Robinson in '95 had a bigger disparity in PPG compared to reg season.
And if you saw that series, he clearly outperformed Robinson.
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG

[IronMexican]

You guys sound like Kobe lovers trying to defend Kobe over Jordan(Jordan was clearly better) Yeah, Robinson was good, but Hakeem was just better. So what? Robinson was great too.

[Many PackYao]

You want the whole truth qualified by an if. IF Hakeem ever got his wish to be traded in 92 you wouldn't have any championships to talk about...and if the spurs never got Duncan then the Spurs wouldn't have any either.

[jcrod]

It's simple as this-Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson and the rest of the Spurs team outplayed the Rockets in their reg season matchups. But, out of those wins the Rockets had, which are the ones that mattered the most?Olajuwon and the Rockets went through two great teams with two great centers and beat them on their way to a ring that year.

Two more points over their 42 matchups is not out performed.
He did in the one lone playoff series, but we already went through why that happened.

[ambchang]

You guys sound like Kobe lovers trying to defend Kobe over Jordan(Jordan was clearly better) Yeah, Robinson was good, but Hakeem was just better. So what? Robinson was great too.

And this is precisely the problem. Saying Kobe is better than Jordan is like saying Alonzo Mourning is better than Hakeem. Saying Robinson was as good as Hakeem is like saying Magic was as good as Jordan. You have an actual argument about it even though popular media and average NBA fans clearly is biased towards one side.

[ambchang]

No No No!!! Its worse way than that. Kobe is on Jordans level. Every player that Jordan has played with has said so, but Hakeem is light years away from Robinson. Robinson is not even a top 5 center, and Hakeem is right there with Kareem. You could easily make a case for Hakeem being the best. Am I the only one that remember that Robison's career was fading into ultimate humilation before Duncan arrived??? Im surprised this thread even went 4 pages. Then you have this no it all idiot that is so delusional right now that he is trying to say the original article was Robinson vs Shaq, but I'll be damned that I didnt see Hakeem compared to Robinson in the same article:wow

LOL! Kobe on Jordan’s level? How? Based on him choking in two consecutive finals appearance? Based on his professional approach in refusing to play with the Hornets? Jordan got how many scoring titles? Kobe’s got how many? Jordan led the Bulls to how many titles? Kobe led his team to how may titles? Jordan shot his team out of how many titles? Kobe shot his team out of how many titles?

And Robinson was fading into ultimate humiliation? How? By winning the scoring title? Rebounding title? Blocked shot title? MVP? All-D teams? All-NBA 1st teams over Shaq and Hakeem in their primes? What have you been smoking?

I am even surprised by using the word “remember” in the paragraph. Judging from the crap you spewed so far, you couldn’t have watched basketball in the 90’s at all.

So tell me, how is Bird’s defense compared to Duncan? There is no point for you to argue in the thread anymore after you made a case that Bird and Duncan’s defense was comparable, but then you top it off with a gem like Kobe and Jordan are comparable, while Robinson and Hakeem were not.


Robinson is right there in the category of Garnett, Webber, and Dirk. Im not knocking those three guys because I think all of them are HOF players, but dont even fucking think about robbing the Houston fans of bragging rights to the most complete big man in history. Hakeem was top shelf, and only a spurs fan would pull something else out of their small town asses:king

Webber? Where does he came from?
Did Garnett lead his teams to year after year of 50+ wins with a crappy supporting cast? Oh no, he missed playoffs when he was not paired up with another all-star. Was Dirk anywhere close to one of the greatest defenders in league history?

BTW, Dirk’s “choke job” was one of the most overblown thing. He played great vs. the Spurs and other playoff series. He did terribly vs. the Golden States because the whole defense was designed to exploit his weakness, and none of his teammates remotely stepped up in that series. But then people who know little about the game ate that up.

[IronMexican]

No No No!!! Its worse way than that. Kobe is on Jordans level. Every player that Jordan has played with has said so, but Hakeem is light years away from Robinson. Robinson is not even a top 5 center, and Hakeem is right there with Kareem. You could easily make a case for Hakeem being the best. Am I the only one that remember that Robison's career was fading into ultimate humilation before Duncan arrived??? Im surprised this thread even went 4 pages. Then you have this no it all idiot that is so delusional right now that he is trying to say the original article was Robinson vs Shaq, but I'll be damned that I didnt see Hakeem compared to Robinson in the same article:wow

Robinson is right there in the category of Garnett, Webber, and Dirk. Im not knocking those three guys because I think all of them are HOF players, but dont even fucking think about robbing the Houston fans of bragging rights to the most complete big man in history. Hakeem was top shelf, and only a spurs fan would pull something else out of their small town asses:king


My top 5 goes as is

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3a. Hakeem
3b. Shaq
5. Russel

[Many PackYao]

Well can anyone say what skill sets Robinson possessed that were better than Olajuwon's?When Jordan and even Shaq say Olajuwon was the best center of their eras, how can you dispute that?

[Rummpd]

Well can anyone say what skill sets Robinson possessed that were better than Olajuwon's?When Jordan and even Shaq say Olajuwon was the best center of their eras, how can you dispute that?


Robinson was a better outside shooter (especially on the wing), ran the floor better (probably the best big ever) and could cover more ground faster than even the great Hakeem to block a shot. Again, I put Hakeem by a hair over Robinson but they were both great period.

[Many PackYao]

Robinson was a better outside shooter (especially on the wing), ran the floor better (probably the best big ever) and could cover more ground faster than even the great Hakeem to block a shot. Again, I put Hakeem by a hair over Robinson but they were both great period.
How can he be the better shooter on the wing when the wing was Olajuwon's sweet spot to do his fadeaway?Robinson wasn't known to have a signature shot or sweet spot on the floor like Olajuwon did. Remember all those "Dream shakes" he did on Robinson.

[ambchang]

Wow, you sure do have your logics fucked up. Here is some advice. Dont ever mention Robinson in the same sentence as HAKEEM, MAGIC, OR JORDAN. And no, Magic was not on Jordans level... there is no debate there, and this is coming from a die-hard Magic fan. Stop reaching man... you starting to sound stupid.

Robinson is not in the same sentence as Hakeem, Magic or Jordan? How do you figure? Robinson’s career accomplishments compares similarly to Hakeem, and as you pointed out, so did his stats. The only thing that separates the two is that Hakeem was fortunate to have a front office that complemented his team with a perfect supporting cast and a coach that utilizes it and created a brand of offense that has since been employed by every great team (Lakers in the early 00’s, and the Spurs in the last 10 years).

How was Magic not on Jordan’s level? 3 Finals MVP, 3 MVPs, All-star games, All-star game MVPs, championships, great leadership. It’s sad to see a self-professed die hard Magic fan know so little about his/her hero that s/he got so greatly influenced by the media. Jordan was about as great as they come, but there is no question that players like Magic, Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are at least on the same level.

[ambchang]

Speaking on sounding stupid, tell me more about Duncan’s defense.

[Many PackYao]

Robinson is not in the same sentence as Hakeem, Magic or Jordan? How do you figure? Robinson’s career accomplishments compares similarly to Hakeem, and as you pointed out, so did his stats. The only thing that separates the two is that Hakeem was fortunate to have a front office that complemented his team with a perfect supporting cast and a coach that utilizes it and created a brand of offense that has since been employed by every great team (Lakers in the early 00’s, and the Spurs in the last 10 years).

How was Magic not on Jordan’s level? 3 Finals MVP, 3 MVPs, All-star games, All-star game MVPs, championships, great leadership. It’s sad to see a self-professed die hard Magic fan know so little about his/her hero that s/he got so greatly influenced by the media. Jordan was about as great as they come, but there is no question that players like Magic, Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar are at least on the same level.
There's no question he was on Olajuwon's level, but in the pecking order of all-time great centers Dream is still ahead of Robinson.

[Tmac&Luther]

You want the whole truth qualified by an if. IF Hakeem ever got his wish to be traded in 92 you wouldn't have any championships to talk about.

Since we're going by if's........like I said, IF SAMPSON NEVER GOT HURT AND LUCAS AND OTHERS NEVER FELL INTO DRUGS......Hakeem never even questions a trade, because he's already winning rings...which pretty much null and voids your post.

[ambchang]

There's no question he was on Olajuwon's level, but in the pecking order of all-time great centers Dream is still ahead of Robinson.

Can't argue with that, and I actually tend to agree. I just believe Robinson would have been viewed as one of the greatest of all time if he was actually surrounded by a team that magnifies his strengths.

[ambchang]

Since we're going by if's........like I said, IF SAMPSON NEVER GOT HURT AND LUCAS AND OTHERS NEVER FELL INTO DRUGS......Hakeem never even questions a trade, because he's already winning rings...which pretty much null and voids your post.

Please go back to the early 90's I believe. Hakeem demanded to be traded. He got into a huge fight with management because the team sucked and management accused him of faking injury (I think it was his eye-socket or something like that).

[ambchang]

How can he be the better shooter on the wing when the wing was Olajuwon's sweet spot to do his fadeaway?Robinson wasn't known to have a signature shot or sweet spot on the floor like Olajuwon did. Remember all those "Dream shakes" he did on Robinson.

Hakeem had great range for a center, and he did score a lot on fade away jumpers, but most of those were 15 feet in, and Hakeem is much more feared for his moves in the low post (including the fadeaway).

Robinson on the other hand, was deadly from 18 feet in with his face up jumpshot. Problem is that Robinson never developed the deadly lowpost moves of Hakeem to compliment his outside shooting. However, nobody did it better than Hakeem in the post, so that's a moot point.

[Many PackYao]

Hakeem had great range for a center, and he did score a lot on fade away jumpers, but most of those were 15 feet in, and Hakeem is much more feared for his moves in the low post (including the fadeaway).

Robinson on the other hand, was deadly from 18 feet in with his face up jumpshot. Problem is that Robinson never developed the deadly lowpost moves of Hakeem to compliment his outside shooting. However, nobody did it better than Hakeem in the post, so that's a moot point.

Yup,sounds about right.:toast

[Many PackYao]

Kareem/Hakeem
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Moses
Robinson

I know people will say Duncan is not a Center, but he is. The top two are clear cut, but you could debate the last four.

if ranked by skill set + physical tools only
1.Olajuwon
2.Duncan-if counted as center (greatest PF of all time though)
3.Ewing
4.Robinson
5.Shaq

[ambchang]

Listen man... at some point in every sport you have to crown a King. Boxing it was Ali, swimming its Phelps, Golf its Tiger, Tennis its Federer. Notice how I mentioned individual sports. In individual sports you can always find a clear cut King so to speak. In team sports there are always different variables you have to consider... teammates, coaches, type of offense or defense being ran, ect. But even still, someone is going to come along and raise his level of play above all those before him, and the fans universally recognize that player as the best. In the case of basketball, Jordan is that player. Personally I think Magics will to win is unmatched, but watching the things that Jordan did compared to Magic is like comparing XBOX 360 to Nintendo... better graphics, larger hard drive, many more options, you follow me.

I do not agree with that. There is no clear cut “king” in sports. Ali was head-and-shoulders above everybody else, and Tiger revolutionized the game, but people can make a great case for Spitz in swimming, and Sampras, Borg, McEnroe in Tennis. For team sports, as you mentioned, there are many variables, some players are being put in more favourable situations than others. Jordan wasn’t viewed as being on the same level as Bird and Magic earlier on in his career even though he put up phenomenal stats, he was viewed as a better player later on in his career when he got worse stats, and why is that? Because he got better teammates who compliments his skills.

Pippen got much better, Ho Grant/Rodman provided the interior defense and rebounding, Bill Cartwright proved to be a perfect complimentary player who holds the paint down and can score in spurts, even the Longleys and the Wenningtons provided good outside shooting to open up the lane. Then there are those deadly three point shooters who made teams pay when you collapse on the lane and stop Jordan and Pippen from drives.

Jordan got better in terms of trusting his teammates and passing the ball, low post scoring and maybe outside shooting, but he wasn’t as effective driving in the paint, nor was he that great defensively later on in his career (his reputation bailed him out). Yet he was viewed as being a rung below Magic and Bird to clearly better. Why is that? The only reason was because his teams won more and was dominant, and much of that was because of the makeup of the team and improvement in his teammates.


Now as far as Robinsons accomplisments, no one can deny them, but there is a thin line when comparing accomplishments, to player vs player... thats why I mentioned the individual sports. If we are going to judge players by accomplishments only, then Robert Horry is a 1st ballot HOFer... but common sense tells us he might never get there, even though he has 7 rings and counting.

Accomplishments does not mean rings. Horry was all but a complimentary player to the best sense on those teams. He provided excellent intangibles, but in most cases, he wasn’t even the top 3 option. To draw a parallel between Robinson’s career and that of Dirk, Garnett and Webber is asinine.


Everything you guys have said about Robinson is true for the most part. He was a great center, Super athletic player. Im well aware of how he took the Spurs from Clipper status to contenders, but even still, the comparisons of Drob and Hakeem was put to rest when they went head to head during their primes.

And that was the whole point of the thread, in which Robinson was thrust into a vastly inferior position because his teammates could do crack. Robinson faced double and triples throughout the series, and his incompetent coach couldn’t devise any plans to free up his star centre, while his teammates couldn’t nail an open jumpshot. Hakeem on the other hand had teammates who bombed the crap out of anyone who left them open.

Here is a summary:
Through the series, the Rockets shot 127 3 pointers, making 44 for 34.7%, the Spurs shot 72, making 23 for 31.9% They almost DOUBLED the amount of 3pters the Spurs shot.

Another interesting fact, Avery Johnson shot more FGA than Robinson in game 4, got the same amount in game 5, shot only one less in game 3 and 3 less in game 1. In game two, he got in trouble, and his substitute, Doc Rivers, got one less shot than Robinson did despite playing much fewer minutes. Guess that shows how Robinson was doubled and tripled throughout and his PGs, who were KNOWN to be poor shooters, were shooting about the same amount of shots as he did.


In my mind, Hakeem is to the center position what Jordan was to the shooting guard position. They both raised the bar of how those positions will forever be played. I cant say the same for Robinson.

To put it in clear cut perspective. If Robinson is as close to Hakeem like you guys say he is, then Duncan is clear cut better than Hakeem. You wouldnt make that claim would you? Because we all know Duncan is obviously better than Robinson right. And dont come back with... oh, Duncan is a power foward. He is a center playing out of position, and he should be recognized with the rest of the great centers, but Spurs fans would rather recognize him as the best power foward just to have bragging rights. Thats all fine, but if you truly look past your homerism, you would see my point.

God I cant wait until the season starts...:(

I never argued that Duncan is much better than Robinson, I think they are about the same, with Duncan being slightly better. And as was previously discussed, I believe from an individual talent point of view, Hakeem > Duncan, but if I were to build a team, I would pick Duncan in his prime over Hakeem, simply because Duncan is more versatile and has proven he can take teams with vastly different philosophies to titles.

[ambchang]

if ranked by skill set + physical tools only
1.Olajuwon
2.Duncan-if counted as center (greatest PF of all time though)
3.Ewing
4.Robinson
5.Shaq

Robinson and Shaq are so much better in terms of skill set and physical tools than Ewing it's not even funny.

[mavs>spurs2]

Everyone in the world likes to hate on Hakeem and underrate him..seriously he's number 2 all time in the modern era, no questions asked. No one was able to dominate both sides of the ball the way he did, not even Jordan. Next time youre at the park try locking down the best player on the opposing team AND being the main scorer on offense getting double teamed. Its hard. Like alot harder than you realize, fatigue really starts the play in and you're not at the top of your game on either end. The whole "Wilt played in a different era" argument is debatable so I'm only talking about modern era.

[Many PackYao]

Robinson and Shaq are so much better in terms of skill set and physical tools than Ewing it's not even funny.
yeah those last three can be interchanged. It's all a matter of opinion in this case.But even similar to what you said earlier, Robinson was not remembered for having an outstanding post game.Ewing had a post up game similar to Olajuwon. I always remember Robinson for shooting a straight-away jumpshot from the top of the key or at the corners of the ft line.

[ambchang]

yeah those last three can be interchanged. It's all a matter of opinion in this case.But even similar to what you said earlier, Robinson was not remembered for having an outstanding post game.Ewing had a post up game similar to Olajuwon. I always remember Robinson for shooting a straight-away jumpshot from the top of the key or at the corners of the ft line.

True, but Robinson was so much better at the drive than any other center who ever played the game. The reason he developed that outside shot is because teams would collapse on him.

Robinson was much more than an outside shooting center, he did lead the league in dunks a few seasons.

[sook]

Everyone in the world likes to hate on Hakeem and underrate him..seriously he's number 2 all time in the modern era, no questions asked. No one was able to dominate both sides of the ball the way he did, not even Jordan. Next time youre at the park try locking down the best player on the opposing team AND being the main scorer on offense getting double teamed. Its hard. Like alot harder than you realize, fatigue really starts the play in and you're not at the top of your game on either end. The whole "Wilt played in a different era" argument is debatable so I'm only talking about modern era.

i agree. :bking

[DunkingDuncan]

That's incorrect sir -
Reg season stats head to head
R Robinson: 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG Olajuwon: 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG
Playoffs head to head
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG

Complete Hakeem vs. D-rob stats from reg season:

Hakeem: 21.9 ppg (44.1 FG%), 11.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.9 spg in 37.7 mpg

David: 19.6 ppg (48.8 FG%), 11.2 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 bpg, 2.2 spg in 37.7 mpg

That's really close. One interesting thing to notice is that DRob held Hakeem to 44.1 FG% (compared to his career 51.2 FG%). Hakeem held Robinson to 48.8 (career 51.8).
However in PO Hakeem indeed dominated D-rob.

With that said, I have Hakeem as 5th best center all-time and David 7th.

[DROB4EVER]

Anyone who says Shaq was ever better than DRob knows shit. Shaq has not one skill. He was allowed to foul on every play, as well as camp in the lane all so David Stern could use him to attrack a gate!

Shaq also on every team had a much better supporting cast which help pad his stats. DRob is a rare bread, with the skill set of a SF and the size of a Center. He outran many pg in the NBA, you cant find a big man who can do that today.

All the hype Dwight Howard gets today, big Dave was bigger, more skilled and athletic, a great defender.....but his faith in God and humble attitube caused the media to turn from him. Stern should have promoted Robinson because he represented everything Stern says he wants the NBA to be, yet he promoted the hip hop pot smokers, and chest pounding morons like shaq who had to take the SATs 13 times to get the 700 needed to get into D-1. Yo Shaq you get 350 pts to put your name on the paper!!!

Robinson in his prime was feared on both ends of the court, the only other big that you could say that about was Keem, and Jabaar.

[DROB4EVER]

Robinson and Shaq are so much better in terms of skill set and physical tools than Ewing it's not even funny.

Ewing abouve DRob. What skill set is being a monkey? Ewing was a poor defender, and had only 1 post move. No one would take Ewing over Drob.

[mavs>spurs2]

Ewing abouve DRob. What skill set is being a monkey? Ewing was a poor defender, and had only 1 post move. No one would take Ewing over Drob.

Um..re-read his post. He said Robinson and Shaq are both better than Ewing

[wijayas]

For all of us (arm-chair analyst) laden with feelings that this player is better than the other, please [please again] re-read the original article.

If you disagree with the methodology, the statistical analysis and the conclusion presented by those folks from The Wages Of Wins Journal, please come up with your own scientific analysis. If you keep on ranting Hakeem this, Shaq that, you are just fooling yourselves. You can't talk Math/Statistics. So you can keep quiet.

If you let your brain do the counting and not your hearts, it is impossible to dispute the premises, analysis and the conclusions presented by those folks at Wages of Wins.

D Rob rules!!!

[Slippy]

Since we're going by if's........like I said, IF SAMPSON NEVER GOT HURT AND LUCAS AND OTHERS NEVER FELL INTO DRUGS......Hakeem never even questions a trade, because he's already winning rings...which pretty much null and voids your post.

Nothing to do with winning. Everything to do with money. There goes your fairytale.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n23_v83/ai_13607826


Houston Rockets' center Hakeem Olajuwon, who last season was accused of malingering by his team and is now a leading contender for this season's MVP award, has signed a contract extension that will reportedly pay him $34 million over the next six years.

Ironically, it was Olajuwon's request to have his contract renegotiated last season that prompted the acrimony between he and the Rockets management, prompting the Nigerian native to demand to be traded. Now Olajuwon's reported $5.67 million average annual salary is second only to San Antonio's David Robinson for pivotmen.

"I was surprised I was here at the beginning of the season," said Olajuwon, a nine-year veteran, all with Houston.


"Once I knew I was here, I just wanted to take care of business on the floor. You can tell by the way this season has been going everything has worked out for the best," he added.

[my2sons]

what attribute made david better: the ability to put family first, the ability to defer to a teamate by realizing that if he didn't score 25/game the team would be better. the ability to keep a franchise afloat, the ability to take less money when teams would be willing to pay more for this lesser player than shaq and dream. the ability to get it. He was team. we may not even be having this conversation if jordan didn't retire and allow dream to have his two. to you houston fans dream will always be the best and nothing anyone says will change your minds, nor do i care to. david will always be my favorite spur and i have no ill will towards dream other than he played for the rockets. he is one of my favorite people and no one belittles his talent, only in your myopic mind does that occur.

[Pero]

Well according to PER:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Shaq is 2nd, Robinson 3rd, and Olajuwon....15th... :lol

[Brutalis]

For all of us (arm-chair analyst) laden with feelings that this player is better than the other, please [please again] re-read the original article.

If you disagree with the methodology, the statistical analysis and the conclusion presented by those folks from The Wages Of Wins Journal, please come up with your own scientific analysis. If you keep on ranting Hakeem this, Shaq that, you are just fooling yourselves. You can't talk Math/Statistics. So you can keep quiet.

If you let your brain do the counting and not your hearts, it is impossible to dispute the premises, analysis and the conclusions presented by those folks at Wages of Wins.

D Rob rules!!!

David was a wiz at math. Also electronics. I have a book of him and his dad talks about how he would take apart the TV set and put it back together, along with mowers[mechanical] and radios.

/random