Spot Number 24 - Top 50 Spurs

[timvp]

SpursTalk's Top 50 Spurs
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Gregg Popovich
5. Angelo Drossos
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Tony Parker
8. Sean Elliott
9. James Silas
10. Bruce Bowen
11. Larry Kenon
12. Avery Johnson
13. Alvin Robertson
14. Johnny Moore
15. RC Buford
16. Artis Gilmore
17. Peter Holt
18. Mike Mitchell
19. Bob Bass
20. Malik Rose
21. Robert Horry
22. Red McCombs
23. Doug Moe

------------------------------

To pass the time until the start of preseason, let's see how SpursTalk.com ranks the Top 50 Spurs. Those eligible for the list include all players, coaches and owners. I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

For more information on what we are doing, check out this thread (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103061).

In this thread, we will vote for spot number 24. Please place your vote. If you will, also explain in this thread why you voted how you did.

Thanks.



P.S.

Poll options listed in alphabetical order. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, post in the thread and I'll add the person.

Voting will end 2AM CST Tuesday morning.

Please vote only once.

[KEDA]

who's "Rek Anderson?????

[manufor3]

brent

[timvp]

Here are my top ten contenders for this spot ... in no particular order:

Terry Cummings
Averaged 14.4 points, 6.9 rebounds and 26.7 minutes per game during his six years with the Spurs. In his first three seasons in San Antonio, averaged 19.3 points, 8.4 rebounds and 32.9 minutes. In the summer after his third season, he tore his ACL and that injury limited his ability for the rest of his career. Played in 361 regular season games in his Spurs career.

Billy Paultz
Played four and a half seasons in San Antonio from 1975 to 1980. In 371 career regular season games, Paultz averaged 14.2 points, 8.5 rebounds and 30.9 minutes per game. Made the 1975-76 ABA All-Star team as a member of the Spurs. Has the most career rebounds and blocks with the Spurs of anyone not on the current list.

Mark Olberding
Olberding's 536 regular season games played with the Spurs ranks him 10th on the all-time franchise list. During those games, averaged 10.5 points, 5.6 rebounds and 25.8 minutes per game. He played seven complete seasons with the Spurs -- from 1975 to 1982.

Mario Elie
Elie only two season with the Spurs. The 1999 championship season is the season he is most remembered for. He is credited with firing up his teammates and helping the Spurs in the mental toughness and clutchness department. Hit a number of big shots during the regular season and playoffs during 1999. He didn't do much of anything in the 1999-2000 season but his lone good season was a vital one in Spurs history.

Robert McDermott
Was the primary owner of the Spurs from 1993 to 1997 when he sold to Peter Holt. While he wasn't in charge for a long period of time, he made one hugely important move -- he hired Gregg Popovich. Seeing as Pop at the time was a lowly assistant coach on a losing Golden State Warriors team, the move was seen as a risk at the time. Not only did he hire Pop, he gave Pop full authority over the basketball operations. He only told Pop to do one thing and that was to bring back Sean Elliott. McDermott too could have sold for more money to outside investors but kept the team in town by selling to Holt. Some give McDermott credit for changing the culture of how the Spurs are run.

Stan Albeck
Coached the Spurs for three years -- from 1980 to 1983. Posted a 153-93 record during the regular season. His winning percentage as head coach is fourth best in franchise history. Made the Western Conference Finals in two out of his three years as coach. Both losses in the WCF were against the Lakers. The year before Albeck was coach, the Spurs were 41-41. The year after he left, the Spurs were 37-45.

[timvp]

who's "Rek Anderson?????Derek Anderson's nickname :smokin



This spot to me is between Elie, Cummings and Paultz. I actually think this is a good spot for Elie. That 1999 team was the most important team in history and he had an undeniable role on that squad. His time on the Spurs was short but that one year was extremely vital.

Paultz is being underrated a bit. He was an ugly player to watch for the most part but his career stats and accomplishments can't really be ignored. I'm leaning toward going Elie, Paultz, Cummings and then McDermott.

Barry deserves a spot relatively soon but I can't see a possible way to put him over those four. A guy who never spent a season as higher than the seventh man on the roster can't really be in the top 25, IMO.

[urunobili]

Barry>Elie

[Kona]

Cummings.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Tc

[Brutalis]

I like Cummings.

[baseline bum]

You can't spell believe without Elie.

[Rummpd]

Cummings.

[J.T.]

Can I get a poll option for Beno Udrih please.

[urunobili]

:lmao at all the single ringed or not ringed at all love in the polls vs the multiple ring winners :nope

[The Truth #6]

:lmao at all the single ringed or not ringed at all love in the polls vs the multiple ring winners :nope

I think you're emphasizing that issue too much. For example, there's no way I would put Barry above Mario or TC. Barry was on the trading block every year and was outplayed by Devin Brown his first year. I think he was an incredible team player and wasn't utilized at all by the coaching staff, however, that doesn't mean he should be above TC who put up very solid numbers his first couple years and who helped turn the whole franchise around in one season. TC was a great mentor to David. (I think they even played piano and keyboards together, especially when TC was writing some goofy jingles for the team, which was hilarious.)

If we're going to go by this ring issue, then does that mean we throw Beno into the conversation? Right.

The top of this list already rewards the players who brought us all the rings. I wouldn't keep stressing that criteria further down the list. Just the opposite - this is the time to celebrate the players whose contributions have been forgotten.

[Obstructed_View]

Wow, TC is really benefitting from the fact that nobody seems to remember the other additions to the Spurs the year he arrived. Here's a hint: numbers 2 and 8.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Wow, TC is really benefitting from the fact that nobody seems to remember the other additions to the Spurs the year he arrived. Here's a hint: numbers 2 and 8.

Pre-injury, TC was perhaps one of the Spurs top five forwards all-time.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I think you're emphasizing that issue too much. For example, there's no way I would put Barry above Mario or TC. Barry was on the trading block every year and was outplayed by Devin Brown his first year. I think he was an incredible team player and wasn't utilized at all by the coaching staff, however, that doesn't mean he should be above TC who put up very solid numbers his first couple years and who helped turn the whole franchise around in one season. TC was a great mentor to David. (I think they even played piano and keyboards together, especially when TC was writing some goofy jingles for the team, which was hilarious.)

If we're going to go by this ring issue, then does that mean we throw Beno into the conversation? Right.

The top of this list already rewards the players who brought us all the rings. I wouldn't keep stressing that criteria further down the list. Just the opposite - this is the time to celebrate the players whose contributions have been forgotten.


I'd have to agree with that. There are a lot of guys who should be above Barry. Olberding, Dietrick, George Johnson, Billy Paultz, Nater....guys like Willie Anderson too. I figured all the votes for Barry at this point were the result of some more Trolling going on, or else most people in here didn't see the Spurs play before 1999.

[FromWayDowntown]

Wow, TC is really benefitting from the fact that nobody seems to remember the other additions to the Spurs the year he arrived. Here's a hint: numbers 2 and 8.

Wow, a poster completely forgot that Cummings was the Spurs' leading scorer in the 1990 series with Portland and a couple years later again against Phoenix. :lol

In any event, I have a really hard time separating Moe and Albeck in terms of importance and find myself almost compelled to vote for Albeck here to keep that true. I think I would have put both Moe and Albeck further down the list -- mostly because I think that Cummings and Paultz both belong in this general range and should go before those coaches.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lmao at all the single ringed or not ringed at all love in the polls vs the multiple ring winners :nope

So with that logic you wouldn't oppose Beno voted ahead of George Gervin, Sean Elliott, Larry Kenon, James Silas, Mike Mitchell, Artis Gilmore, Johnny Moore, Avery Johnson, or Alvin Robertson either, would you?

[angelbelow]

Terry Cummings!

[baseline bum]

If we're asking for best player left on the board, then it's TC in a landslide. He was every bit our Ginobili in the 89-90 season. TC just go hurt so quickly after coming to SA, and 89-90 was the only healthy year the team ever had with him in the core.

Mario gets my vote though for really getting into Duncan and Robinson and pissing them off so much they destroyed the rest of the league in anger. It took balls to come in and just dig into two Hall of Famers 13 games into your career on the team, and immediately after that interview got aired, the 99 Spurs were unbeatable. Mario helped make that the hungriest team in franchise history, and I'm supremely confident that team would rip any other Spurs team of all time to shreds. I think a lot of people forget just how good the 99 Spurs were.

[baseline bum]

WTF is Rasho doing on this list? I like the guy ok, but he hardly played in the 05 playoffs. Nesterovic has no business on this list, and anyone voting for him has no respect for the Spurs.

[rAm]

If we're asking for best player left on the board, then it's TC in a landslide. He was every bit our Ginobili in the 89-90 season. TC just go hurt so quickly after coming to SA, and 89-90 was the only healthy year the team ever had with him in the core.

Mario gets my vote though for really getting into Duncan and Robinson and pissing them off so much they destroyed the rest of the league in anger. It took balls to come in and just dig into two Hall of Famers 13 games into your career on the team, and immediately after that interview got aired, the 99 Spurs were unbeatable. Mario helped make that the hungriest team in franchise history, and I'm supremely confident that team would rip any other Spurs team of all time to shreds. I think a lot of people forget just how good the 99 Spurs were.

Well said.

[timvp]

Even though I voted for Elie, Cummings is a good vote too. If Cummings doesn't get hurt, he'd be much higher on the list. In fact, he'd probably be top ten. He was only 30-years-old when he tore his ACL ... and that was back when an ACL tear was usually a career ending injury.

In the 1994-95 season, substitute a healthy Cummings for Rodman and you'd have a monster of a squad. Damn.

[timvp]

I'd have to agree with that. There are a lot of guys who should be above Barry. Olberding, Dietrick, George Johnson, Billy Paultz, Nater....guys like Willie Anderson too. I figured all the votes for Barry at this point were the result of some more Trolling going on, or else most people in here didn't see the Spurs play before 1999.

Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the Barry argument. Solid player. Had some great moments. Funny guy. But I don't see it around this point. Barry's time will come but it's not here yet.

Barry's numbers alone don't warrant him a spot in the top 50. But I realize he should get extra points for helping bring two championships, keeping the offense flowing and generally being a very good piece to a puzzle. Though I don't think other factors can be ignored such as he was never a top player in the rotation for a long period of time and he was being shopped almost from the moment he signed his contract.

I don't think it is a matter of posters not recognizing pre-1999 players, especially seeing how TC is currently winning this poll. Maybe there is some Robery Horry-lite type argument, but I'd like to see it . . .

[Obstructed_View]

Pre-injury, TC was perhaps one of the Spurs top five forwards all-time.

I have no other response but :lol. If that's true, then we're taking the players' entire career into account, and Dominique has to be on the list before TC. Seriously, the only all time Spurs list of any stat I recall TC being on is for turnovers. If he'd played his entire career for the Spurs I'd be right there with you. He was a great player, and he was a big name acquisition for the team, but his contribution to the Spurs doesn't deserve that kind of consideration.


Wow, a poster completely forgot that Cummings was the Spurs' leading scorer in the 1990 series with Portland and a couple years later again against Phoenix. :lol

No, I didn't forget, I just don't see how it makes him worthy of a top 25 spot ahead of someone like Elie or Kerr or either Jackson. So he was the leading scorer in two series that the Spurs lost, the second when David injured his thumb and Antoine Carr was the starting center. I know the 90's Spurs had an abysmal playoff record, but being the leading scorer in a series you lost 0-3 isn't compelling under any circumstances.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm supremely confident that team would rip any other Spurs team of all time to shreds. I think a lot of people forget just how good the 99 Spurs were.

Amen to that. I think the '03 team was probably the most talented, but the '99 team played at such a consistently high level that nobody else could have touched them.

[timvp]

I just don't see how it makes him worthy of a top 25 spot ahead of someone like Elie or Kerr or either Jackson.Steve Kerr over Terry Cummings?

:wow

[FromWayDowntown]

No, I didn't forget, I just don't see how it makes him worthy of a top 25 spot ahead of someone like Elie or Kerr or either Jackson. So he was the leading scorer in two series that the Spurs lost, the second when David injured his thumb and Antoine Carr was the starting center. I know the 90's Spurs had an abysmal playoff record, but being the leading scorer in a series you lost 0-3 isn't compelling under any circumstances.

You seem to argue that the difference for the Spurs in the early 90's was Robinson and Elliott; my sole point is to offer that Cummings was every bit as important as Elliott in the early part of that era (during the true transition to contender) and that he played as well as Robinson at times during that era, too. Certainly, the high water mark for that early group was the 1990 series against Portland (it was the high water mark until '95, certainly) and Cummings was a huge part of that.

It's a dubious argument to me to say that Elie (whose numbers were trivial and who only played 2 years in SA) or Kerr (who was an infrequent contributor whose unfairly given the bulk of the credit for one big playoff win in 2003) are more important in Spurs history than Cummings, unless you're going to argue that rings trump all, in which case Gerard King is more important in Spurs history than George Gervin.

[baseline bum]

TC was certainly better than Elliott on those early 90s Spurs teams. He was a legit second star who could go off for huge games. I remember going to a game against Charlotte where he dropped 52 points. He is unquestionably more important to the Spurs than Kerr or even Stephen Jackson.

However, there's just no way to ignore that the Spurs stopped playing like bitches and steamrolled the league in response to Mario's challenge to the team on NBC and his subsequent ejection from that Utah game they were getting blown out in. I don't think the Spurs win the title with any other SG of comparable talent in that spot. I doubt they even beat Shaq&Kobe in that second round had they just kept Vinny Del Negro.

[Obstructed_View]

You seem to argue that the difference for the Spurs in the early 90's was Robinson and Elliott; my sole point is to offer that Cummings was every bit as important as Elliott in the early part of that era (during the true transition to contender) and that he played as well as Robinson at times during that era, too. Certainly, the high water mark for that early group was the 1990 series against Portland (it was the high water mark until '95, certainly) and Cummings was a huge part of that.

I agree that Cummings was a great player before he came to the Spurs, and that greatness lasted for a short time in San Antonio, even resulting in relative playoff success, an oasis in a several year desert of disappointment. I'll never question his toughness and how much I like him doesn't really enter into the equation. I wasn't going to give him extra points just because he sang the Midnight Basketball theme.


It's a dubious argument to me to say that Elie (whose numbers were trivial and who only played 2 years in SA) or Kerr (who was an infrequent contributor whose unfairly given the bulk of the credit for one big playoff win in 2003) are more important in Spurs history than Cummings, unless you're going to argue that rings trump all, in which case Gerard King is more important in Spurs history than George Gervin.
I've already stated in previous posts that I've decided, right or wrong, to give more weight to guys who contributed to titles. Granted, if you'd like to argue numbers, then Elie or Kerr aren't going to garner much attention, but neither, IMHO, is Cummings.

At this point on the list someone who stuck with the team long enough to amass some stats doesn't carry as much weight as any of those guys, TC included. I've already pointed out that the argument for Elie and Kerr have nothing to do with statistics, although Kerr did play in 45 more games than Speedy Claxton, filling his role for much of the season, and had a huge impact on a really big playoff game at both ends of the floor in a series that the Spurs won, in a year where they went on to win the title.

Gerard King played 14 minutes in the playoffs in '99. If you need to beat on a strawman that weak, you should probably re-think your side of the argument.