GOP downplaying Palin's religious beliefs

[ploto]

For more than two decades, current Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was a practicing Pentecostal.

She belonged to the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska. But though she attended the church from her teenage years through to 2002, she hasn't talked much about her religion since joining the Republican ticket.


Six years ago, Palin left Assembly of God to join the non-denominational Wasilla Bible Church. But the Assembly of God says she still returns for special conferences and events, such as the graduation of ministry students in June. Video of a speech she gave at the church just two months before joining the Republican ticket is making the rounds on the Internet.

Speaking of the troops in Iraq, Palin says on the video, ""Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

Her campaign says she doesn't mix her faith with government business. But Palin did ask her audience to pray for $30 billion natural gas pipeline she is on a mission to build in Alaska. In the video Palin says, "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built. So pray for that ... I can do my job there in developing my natural resources. But all of that doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart is not good with God."


Palin now attends the Wasilla Bible Church. She was there on August 17, just days before entering the national spotlight. David Brickner, the founder of Jews for Jesus, was a speaker. He told congregants that terrorist attacks on Israel were God's "judgment" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity. Brickner said, "Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. When a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment -- you can't miss it."


Pastor Ed Kalnin, the senior pastor of Palin's former Pentecostal church, has also come under fire for his comments. In 2004, he told church members if they voted for John Kerry for president, they wouldn't get into heaven. He told them, "I question your salvation."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/08/palin.pastor/index.html

[whottt]

Why are you emphasizing a Jew not even from her own Church saying that Israel is being punished?



That's not even her minister or someone from her Church...that is a guest speaker Jew saying that...seriously, do you really think you can extrapolate that to her beliefs?


Does it bother you being dishonest plotoi? Lying to yourself? Would me.



The rest of it I don't care...if you go to Church they say stupid shit like that.

At least they didn't say fuck America...

[Nbadan]

How about some good ole fashion croynism?


ANCHORAGE — Gov. Sarah Palin used state funds in June when she traveled from Juneau to Wasilla to speak to graduating evangelical students and urge them to fan out through Alaska "to make sure God’s will be done here."

State records show that Palin submitted a travel authorization for a quick round-trip visit to attend the June 8 graduation of the Master's Commission program at the Wasilla Assembly of God, the church where she was baptized at age 12. The only other item on the agenda for that trip was a "One Lord Sunday" service involving a network of Mat-Su Christian churches earlier that morning at the Wasilla sports complex.

The records show Palin flew from Juneau to Anchorage on Saturday, June 7. She returned to Juneau that Monday afternoon. The plane tickets cost the state $519.50, and she claimed an additional $120 for meals and other expenses.

Palin couldn't be reached for comment Friday as she campaigned for vice president. Her spokeswoman at the McCain campaign said she wouldn't grant an interview.

But Palin's spokeswoman in the governor's office, Sharon Leighow, said the state paid for the trip because Palin was invited to the events as the governor, not as a private citizen.

"I know for a fact she gave remarks at the Wasilla Assembly of God as governor of Alaska to the graduates of this particular program," Leighow said.

McClatchy (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/51956.html)

[efrem1]

Yeah let's not mix our religion with our politics. Let's not have William Wilburforce follow Christ's example and call for the outlawing of slavery in the British Empire. Or have Dietrich Bonhoffer follow his Christian conscience and stand up against Hitler.

As for God's judgement on Israel, that was done long ago in 70 AD so there is no current judgement on them now.

[Nbadan]

What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipstick
A theocrat is a theocrat, whether Muslim or Christian.
By Juan Cole


Sept. 9, 2008 | John McCain announced that he was running for president to confront the "transcendent challenge" of the 21st century, "radical Islamic extremism," contrasting it with "stability, tolerance and democracy." But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers. On censorship, the teaching of creationism in schools, reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God's will and climate change, Palin agrees with Hamas and Saudi Arabia rather than supporting tolerance and democratic precepts. What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.

McCain pledged to work for peace based on "the transformative ideals on which we were founded." Tolerance and democracy require freedom of speech and the press, but while mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, Palin inquired of the local librarian how to go about banning books that some of her constituents thought contained inappropriate language. She tried to fire the librarian for defying her. Book banning is common to fundamentalisms around the world, and the mind-set Palin displayed did not differ from that of the Hamas minister of education in the Palestinian government who banned a book of Palestinian folk tales for its sexually explicit language. In contrast, Thomas Jefferson wrote, "Our liberty cannot be guarded but by the freedom of the press, nor that be limited without danger of losing it."

Palin argued when running for governor that creationism should be taught in public schools, at taxpayers' expense, alongside real science. Antipathy to Darwin for providing an alternative to the creation stories of the Bible and the Quran has also become a feature of Muslim fundamentalism. Saudi Arabia prohibits the study, even in universities, of evolution, Freud and Marx. Malaysia has banned a translation of "The Origin of the Species." Likewise, fundamentalists in Turkey have pressured the government to teach creationism in the public schools. McCain has praised Turkey as an anchor of democracy in the region, but Turkey's secular traditions are under severe pressure from fundamentalists in that country. McCain does them no favors by choosing a running mate who wishes to destroy the First Amendment's establishment clause, which forbids the state to give official support to any particular theology. Turkish religious activists would thereby be enabled to cite an American precedent for their own quest to put religion back at the center of Ankara's public and foreign policies.

The GOP vice-presidential pick holds that abortion should be illegal, even in cases of rape, incest or severe birth defects, making an exception only if the life of the mother is in danger. She calls abortion an "atrocity" and pledges to reshape the judiciary to fight it. Ironically, Palin's views on the matter are to the right of those in the Muslim country of Tunisia, which allows abortion in the first trimester for a wide range of reasons. Classical Muslim jurisprudents differed among one another on the issue of abortion, but many permitted it before the "quickening" of the fetus, i.e. until the end of the fourth month. Contemporary Muslim fundamentalists, however, generally oppose abortion.

Palin's stance is even stricter than that of the Parliament of the Islamic Republic of Iran. In 2005, the legislature in Tehran attempted to amend the country's antiabortion statute to permit an abortion up to four months in case of a birth defect. The conservative clerical Guardianship Council, which functions as a sort of theocratic senate, however, rejected the change. Iran's law on abortion is therefore virtually identical to the one that Palin would like to see imposed on American women, and the rationale in both cases is the same, a literalist religious impulse that resists any compromise with the realities of biology and of women's lives. Saudi Arabia's restrictive law on abortion likewise disallows it in the case or rape or incest, or of fetal impairment, which is also Gov. Palin's position.

Salon (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/09/09/palin_f... /)

Theocrats confuse God's will with their own mortal policies. Just as Muslim fundamentalists believe that God has given them the vast oil and gas resources in their regions, so Palin asks church workers in Alaska to pray for a $30 billion pipeline in the state because "God's will has to get done." Likewise, Palin maintained that her task as governor would be impeded "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God." Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei of Iran expresses much the same sentiment when he says "the only way to attain prosperity and progress is to rely on Islam."

Not only does Palin not believe global warming is "man-made," she favors massive new drilling to spew more carbon into the atmosphere. Both as a fatalist who has surrendered to God's inscrutable will and as a politician from an oil-rich region, she thereby echoes Saudi Arabia. Riyadh has been found to have exercised inappropriate influence in watering down a report in 2007 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Neither Christians nor Muslims necessarily share the beliefs detailed above. Many believers in both traditions uphold freedom of speech and the press. Indeed, in a recent poll, over 90 percent of Egyptians and Iranians said that they would build freedom of expression into any constitution they designed. Many believers find ways of reconciling the scientific theory of evolution with faith in God, not finding it necessary to believe that the world was created suddenly only 6,000 ago. Some medieval Muslim thinkers asserted that the world had existed from eternity, and others spoke of cycles of hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Mystical Muslim poets spoke of humankind traversing the stages of mineral, plant and animal. Modern Islamic fundamentalists have attempted to narrow this great, diverse tradition.

The classical Islamic legal tradition generally permitted, while frowning on, contraception and abortion, and complete opposition to them is mostly a feature of modern fundamentalist thinking. Many believers in both Islam and Christianity would see it as hubris to tie God to specific government policies or to a particular political party. As for global warming, green theology, in which Christians and Muslims appeal to Scripture in fighting global warming, is an increasing tendency in both traditions.

Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. The most noxious belief that Palin shares with Muslim fundamentalists is her conviction that faith is not a private affair of individuals but rather a moral imperative that believers should import into statecraft wherever they have the opportunity to do so. That is the point of her pledge to shape the judiciary. Such a theocratic impulse is incompatible with the Founding Fathers' commitment to tolerance and democracy, which is why they forbade the government to "establish" or officially support any particular religion or denomination.

McCain once excoriated the Rev. Jerry Falwell and his ilk as "agents of intolerance." That he took such a position gave his opposition to similar intolerance in Islam credibility. In light of his more recent disgraceful kowtowing to the Christian right, McCain's animus against fundamentalist Muslims no longer looks consistent. It looks bigoted and invidious. You can't say you are waging a war on religious extremism if you are trying to put a religious extremist a heartbeat away from the presidency.

[whottt]

How about some good ole fashion croynism?



McClatchy (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/51956.html)



:lmao

You guys are digging so hard....you think you'd have learned your lesson when you got Bush re-elected.

[whottt]

[B]What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists? Lipstick
A theocrat is a theocrat, whether Muslim or Christian.
By Juan Cole



Salon (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/09/09/palin_f... /)

Theocrats confuse God's will with their own mortal policies. Just as Muslim fundamentalists believe that God has given them the vast oil and gas resources in their regions, so Palin asks church workers in Alaska to pray for a $30 billion pipeline in the state because "God's will has to get done." Likewise, Palin maintained that her task as governor would be impeded "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God." Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei of Iran expresses much the same sentiment when he says "the only way to attain prosperity and progress is to rely on Islam."

Not only does Palin not believe global warming is "man-made," she favors massive new drilling to spew more carbon into the atmosphere. Both as a fatalist who has surrendered to God's inscrutable will and as a politician from an oil-rich region, she thereby echoes Saudi Arabia. Riyadh has been found to have exercised inappropriate influence in watering down a report in 2007 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Neither Christians nor Muslims necessarily share the beliefs detailed above. Many believers in both traditions uphold freedom of speech and the press. Indeed, in a recent poll, over 90 percent of Egyptians and Iranians said that they would build freedom of expression into any constitution they designed. Many believers find ways of reconciling the scientific theory of evolution with faith in God, not finding it necessary to believe that the world was created suddenly only 6,000 ago. Some medieval Muslim thinkers asserted that the world had existed from eternity, and others spoke of cycles of hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Mystical Muslim poets spoke of humankind traversing the stages of mineral, plant and animal. Modern Islamic fundamentalists have attempted to narrow this great, diverse tradition.

The classical Islamic legal tradition generally permitted, while frowning on, contraception and abortion, and complete opposition to them is mostly a feature of modern fundamentalist thinking. Many believers in both Islam and Christianity would see it as hubris to tie God to specific government policies or to a particular political party. As for global warming, green theology, in which Christians and Muslims appeal to Scripture in fighting global warming, is an increasing tendency in both traditions.

Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. The most noxious belief that Palin shares with Muslim fundamentalists is her conviction that faith is not a private affair of individuals but rather a moral imperative that believers should import into statecraft wherever they have the opportunity to do so. That is the point of her pledge to shape the judiciary. Such a theocratic impulse is incompatible with the Founding Fathers' commitment to tolerance and democracy, which is why they forbade the government to "establish" or officially support any particular religion or denomination.

McCain once excoriated the Rev. Jerry Falwell and his ilk as "agents of intolerance." That he took such a position gave his opposition to similar intolerance in Islam credibility. In light of his more recent disgraceful kowtowing to the Christian right, McCain's animus against fundamentalist Muslims no longer looks consistent. It looks bigoted and invidious. You can't say you are waging a war on religious extremism if you are trying to put a religious extremist a heartbeat away from the presidency.


Yeah...but the difference is in terms of religion the majority of Americans are Christians not Muslims.

Is that really lost on you Dan?

[boutons_]

Palin is mixed up with weird fake religion, "made-up-shit religion" just like the Repugs make up shit and throw it at Dems.

================


http://www.alternet.org/images/site/logo.gif

Weird Theology in Wasilla: A Look Inside Sarah Palin's Pentecostal Church

By Bruce Wilson, Talk To Action

Posted on September 8, 2008, Printed on September 8, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/97939/

On June 8, 2008 Palin was publicly blessed, with the "laying on of hands" before six thousand Wasilla area church members, by Head Wasilla Assembly of God Pastor Ed Kalnins and on the same day both Kalnins and Palin described, at a "Masters Commission" ceremony at the Wasilla Assembly of God church, how she had been blessed prior to winning the Alaska governorship by an African cleric known for driving the "spirit of witchcraft" out of a town in Kenya, after which town supposedly crime rates dropped "almost to zero."

Sarah Palin's churches are actively involved in a resurgent movement that was declared heretical by the Assemblies of God in 1949. This is the same 'Spiritual Warfare' movement that was featured in the award winning movie, "Jesus Camp," which showed young children being trained to do battle for the Lord. At least three of four of Palin's churches are involved with major organizations and leaders of this movement, which is referred to as The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit or the New Apostolic Reformation. The movement is training a young "Joel's Army" to take dominion over the United States and the world.

Along with her entire family, Sarah Palin was re-baptized at twelve at the Wasilla Assembly of God in Wasilla, Alaska and she attended the church from the time she was ten until 2002: over two and 1/2 decades. Sarah Palin's extensive pattern of association with the Wasilla Assembly of God has continued nearly up to the day she was picked by Senator John McCain as a vice-presidential running mate.
Palin's dedication to the Wasilla church is indicated by a Saturday, September 7, 2008, McClatchy news service story detailing possibly improper use of state travel funds by Palin for a trip she made to Wasilla, Alaska to attend, on June 8, 2008, both a Wasilla Assembly of God "Masters Commission" graduation ceremony and also a multi-church Wasilla area event known as "One Lord Sunday."

At the latter event, Palin and Alaska LT Governor Scott Parnell were publicly blessed, onstage before an estimated crowd of 6,000, through the "laying on of hands" by Wasilla Assembly of God's Head Pastor Ed Kalnins whose sermons espouse such theological concepts as the possession of geographic territories by demonic spirits and the inter-generational transmission of family "curses". Palin has also been blessed, or "anointed", by an African cleric, prominent in the Third Wave movement, who has repeatedly visited the Wasilla Assembly of God and claims to have effected positive, dramatic social change in a Kenyan town by driving out a "spirit of witchcraft."

The Wasilla Assembly of God church is deeply involved with both Third Wave activities and theology. Their Master's Commission program is part of an three year post-high school international training program with studies in prophecy, intercessory prayer, Biblical exegesis, authority and leadership.

Watch Bruce Wilson's video documentary detailing the extreme Religious Right connections to the Wasilla Assembly of God church, "Sarah Palin's Churches and the Third Wave":

The pastor, Ed Kalnins, and Masters Commission students have traveled to South Carolina to participate in a "prophetic conference" at Morningstar Ministries, one of the major ministries of the Third Wave movement. Becky Fischer was a pastor at Morningstar prior to being featured in the movie "Jesus Camp." The head of prophecy at Morningstar, Steve Thompson, is currently scheduled to do a prophecy seminar at the Wasilla Assembly of God. Other major leaders in the movement have also traveled to Wasilla to visit and speak at the church.

The Third Wave is a revival of the theology of the Latter Rain tent revivals of the 1950s and 1960s led by William Branham and others. It is based on the idea that in the end times there will be an outpouring of supernatural powers on a group of Christians that will take authority over the existing church and the world. The believing Christians of the world will be reorganized under the Fivefold Ministry and the church restructured under the authority of Prophets and Apostles and others anointed by God. The young generation will form "Joel's Army" to rise up and battle evil and retake the earth for God.

While segments of this belief system have been a part of
Pentecostalism and charismatic beliefs for decades, the excesses of this movement were declared a heresy in 1949 by the General Council of the Assemblies of God, and again condemned through Resolution 16 in 2000.

The beliefs and manifestations of the movement include the use of 'strategic level spiritual warfare' to expel territorial demons from American and world cities. Worship includes excessive charismatic manifestations such as hundreds of people falling, 'slain in the spirit,' and congregations laughing, jerking, and shrieking uncontrollably.

In early 2008 an outbreak of those phenomena commenced at the palatial former ministry estate of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, recently bought up and restored by prominent Third Wave author and leader Rick Joyner's Morningstar Ministries. The (spiritual) "breakout" lasted for many weeks and was publicized in an extensive collection of video footage available on YouTube. Healing services in the Third Wave movement claim to heal the sick and injured through methods that in some cases can appear bizarre - including, as in recent cases involving Todd Bentley, the patient being head butted or kicked by the anointed healer. Recipients of such "spiritual" or miraculous healing make a wide range of astonishing claims - to have been cured of life-threatening illnesses, had joints repaired or replaced, been given gold teeth or gold fillings, regrown stunted limbs and even had deformed skeletal structures straightened and reshaped. Worldwide mission efforts of the movement are built around the idea of combating witches, warlocks, and generational curses, which prevent churches from being able to take root.

Mike Rose, senior pastor of Juneau Christian Center has a long relationship with Rodney Howard-Browne, credited with being the instigator of the outbreak of 'Holy Laughter' around the world, including the Toronto Airport Revival. Thomas Muthee visited Wasilla Assembly of God and gave 10 consecutive sermons at the church, from October 11-16 2005. As both Palin and Wasilla AoG Head Pastor Ed Kalnins have attested, Thomas Muthee 'prayed over' Sarah Palin and entreated God to "make a way" prior to Palin's successful bid for the Alaska governorship. Muthee made a return visit to the Wasilla Assembly of God in late 2008. Thomas Muthee's Word of Faith Church is featured in the "Transformations" video which details an account on how Muthee drove "the spirit of witchcraft" out of Kiambu, Kenya, liberating the town from its territorial demonic possession and enabling a miraculous societal transformation. The "Transformations" video set is used as an argument for social improvement through spiritual instead of human means, and as the best method for fighting corruption, crime, drugs and even environmental degradation.

In the video, producer George Otis declares that after Thomas Muthee and his followers banished the "spirit of witchcraft" from the town, the crime rate in Kiambu dropped almost to zero, along with the rate of alcoholism, and according to Otis most of the residents of the town joined churches. The "Transformations" video has helped spark a network of 'Transformation' ministries and mission organizations and 'transformation' has become a buzz word for change based on supernatural instead of human efforts.

The Third Wave, also known as the New Apostolic Reformation, is a network of Apostles, many of them grouped around C. Peter Wagner, founder of the World Prayer Center. This center, which was built in coordination with Ted Haggard and his New Life Church in Colorado Springs, was featured in an article by Jeff Sharlet in Harpers, May 2005, "Soldiers of Christ." Sharlet was one of the first to write in the secular press about the World Prayer Center which is often referred to by those familiar with the Third Wave as the 'Pentagon for Spiritual Warfare.' It features computer systems that store the data of communities around the world, mapping out unsaved peoples' groups and spiritual mapping information for spiritual warfare. Wagner has his own group of about 500 Apostles in his council and each of these Apostles has ministries under their authority, sometimes hundreds or thousands. Recently various networks of Apostles came together to form the Revival Alliance. Leaders of the Revival Alliance including Rick Joyner of Morningstar anointed Todd Bentley whose Lakeland Healing Revival has recently been a controversial topic in the Evangelical world.

Wagner's top leaders often conduct spiritual warfare campaigns against the demons that block the acceptance of their brand of Christian belief, such as 'Operation Ice Castle' in the Himalayas in 1997. Several of their top prophets and generals of intercession spent weeks in intensive prayer to "confront the Queen of Heaven." This queen is considered by them to be one of the most powerful demons over the earth and is the Great Harlot of Mystery Babylon in Revelation. (The "Great Harlot [or 'whore'] of Mystery Babylon" theme also figures prominently in the sermons of Texas megachurch pastor and Christians United For Israel founder John Hagee, former endorser of John McCain's 2008 presidential bid.) Wagner and his group also claim that the Queen of Heaven is Diana, the pagan god of the biblical book Ephesians and the god of Mary veneration in the Roman Catholic Church. Following the 'Operation Ice Castle' prayer excursion which included planting a flag for Jesus on Mt. Everest, one of the lead prayer intercessors from the excursion, Ana Mendez, reported that there had been dramatic results including, "millions have come to faith in Asia... and other things happened which I believe are also connected...an earthquake had destroyed the basilica of Assisi, where the Pope had called a meeting of all world religions; a hurricane destroyed the infamous temple 'Baal-Christ' in Acapulco, Mexico; the Princes Diana died... and Mother Theresa died in India, one of the most famous advocates of Mary as Co-Redeemer."

Church of the Rock, led by Senior Pastor David Pepper, has taken their youth to participate in 'The Call, Nashville.' This event is held at various locations around the country under the leadership of Lou Engle, also featured in the movie "Jesus Camp." At these events youth are worked into a frenzy of anger and consternation at supposed national moral corruption. Engle, who shuffles while he preaches in imitation of Jewish prayer, is featured toward the end of the "Jesus Camp" video documentary.

The Third Wave movement is cross-denomination and is not synonymous with any specific denomination, nor is it synonymous with Evangelical or Fundamentalist. Although the movement emerged from Pentecostalism, it draws its support from a variety of denominations and religious streams. They believe they are forming a post-denominational church to take the world for the end times. To date, all of the writing and objections to this movement have emerged from other Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who believe the movement to be unbiblical. Also, it is other conservative churches that refuse to embrace the 'outpouring of the Spirit' that are targets of much of the anger of the movement.

You can find more information on the Third Wave movement and additional links to the activities of Palin's churches on

www.Talk2action.org (http://www.Talk2action.org) in the following articles:

Sarah Palin's Churches and the Third Wave, Part One
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/5/0244/84583

Sarah Palin's Churches and the Third Wave, Part Two with embedded video:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/5/03830/11602
The video is also posted at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_1Eit0pxMBruce Wilson writes for Talk To Action (http://www.talk2action.org/), a blog specializing in faith and politics.

© 2008 Talk To Action All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/97939/

==============

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a Bible"

[Nbadan]

So imposing a religion just because its your religion is OK? :rolleyes

New York Daily News, Washington Bureau
September 8, 2008


If John McCain wanted to poach the women's vote from Barack Obama, he shouldn't have tapped a running mate who dubbed herself a "pit bull with lipstick."

At least, that's the assessment of women Democratic operatives who seem tickled at Obama's prospects for November.

"So much of the information about her agenda and her experience did not resonate with women voters outside the Republican base," said Ellen Moran, executive director of EMILY's List, which promotes Democratic women candidates.

There was a collective deep breath, and even a bit of shock, in the world where Hillary Clinton is queen after McCain turned Palin into the new sensation in the race for the White House.

But that soon was replaced by excitement, especially after the Obama campaign reported $10 million in donations the day after Palin's GOP convention speech.

"It's going to take more than delivering a line about lipstick to win over undecided women voters," said Rebecca Kirszner, a consultant with Hilltop Publics Solutions.

EMILY's List was perhaps the first to sing out about an opportunity rather than a threat from Palin, pointing to a poll it had done a couple of days after McCain selected the Alaskan moose huntress.

The survey of 800 women likely voters said Obama holds an 11-point lead on McCain, and that women Hillary voters in particular flooded the Illinois senator's way.

Before the Palin pick, Obama led McCain by 44 points among female Clinton backers. That jumped to a 54-point lead afterward, 75% to 21%, the poll said.

Those kinds of numbers have the activists thinking that if Palin lives up to her schoolgirl basketball nickname of Sarah Barracuda, she'll be less aquatic predator and more filet-o-fish.

NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/06/2008-09-06_sarah_palin_may_have_women_flocking__to_.html)

[whottt]

Link to her imposing her religious beliefs?


By the way...Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed to every American, including politicians.

[efrem1]

"Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. "

So much hogwash. Everybody imposes their relgious beliefs. The question is which religion. There is also something called separation of powers also that the liberals have long since blurred since the days of FDR.

[boutons_]

"Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed to every American, including politicians."

So why did the Repugs spew so much bullshit about Rev Wright?
Doesn't HUSSEIN have freedom of religion?

Or is it that HUSSEIN's pastor is bad, and Palin's pastor and church don't matter?

[Anti.Hero]

Too many bubbas not comfortable with black liberation theology presidents I guess.

[PixelPusher]

"I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built.
Deus le Volt!

[efrem1]

"Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed to every American, including politicians."

So why did the Repugs spew so much bullshit about Rev Wright?
Doesn't HUSSEIN have freedom of religion?

Or is it that HUSSEIN's pastor is bad, and Palin's pastor and church don't matter?

Reverend Wright was being consistent in imposing his relgious beliefs on people. Obama tried to distance himself from his controversial comments, but he had a great influence on him in that his liberal theology is guiding his campaign.

Obama stated himself: "Religious thinkers and activists like our good friend Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo are lifting up the Biblical injunction to help the poor as a means of mobilizing Christians against budget cuts to social programs and growing inequality."

The point is once again is that Obama can impose his religious beliefs but not Sarah Palin.

[T Park]

The point is once again is that Obama can impose his religious beliefs but not Sarah Palin.

:lol

QFT

[whottt]

"Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed to every American, including politicians."

So why did the Repugs spew so much bullshit about Rev Wright?

Probably because they felt it would hurt him in the election if most people knew about it...and I imagine they considered that a positive.



Doesn't HUSSEIN have freedom of religion?

Sure...and the American people have the freedom to vote for the candidate of their choice.



Or is it that HUSSEIN's pastor is bad,

I'm guessing he doesn't have a view of America that most Americans agree with...and that's their right.



and Palin's pastor and church don't matter?

Bring it up all you want...but it's just going to make you look silly.

[TheMadHatter]

Freedom of religion is a wonderful thing, what makes this country great.

That being said, religion has NO PLACE IN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. I do not want my leaders to be religious fundamentalist nutjobs who believe that dinosaurs never existed and that evolution is a lie. Get it?

Obama's religious beliefs in no way affect his ability to make sound decisions when it comes to science and technology. Sarah Palin's DO. That's the difference idiots.

[whottt]

Obama's religious beliefs in no way affect his ability to make sound decisions when it comes to science and technology. Sarah Palin's DO. That's the difference idiots.

Prove it...bigot.

[TheMadHatter]

Prove it...bigot.

Stem cell research.

Thanks for playing.

[efrem1]

Freedom of religion is a wonderful thing, what makes this country great.

That being said, religion has NO PLACE IN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. I do not want my leaders to be religious fundamentalist nutjobs who believe that dinosaurs never existed and that evolution is a lie. Get it?

Obama's religious beliefs in no way affect his ability to make sound decisions when it comes to science and technology. Sarah Palin's DO. That's the difference idiots.

You have got to be kidding. Every single law on the books is based on a set of values that is based on religion. Let me give you my little spiel again on the "wall of separation" nonsense. The First amendment only applied to Congress and not the states. Three states had state churches at the time Jefferson wrote his "wall of separation" speech before the Danbury Baptist.

The wall of separation hubbub has only sprouted in recent history with the decision of Everson v. Board of Education in 1947.

I qoute from James Buckley (brother of William F. Buckley) to clarify what I said:

"The establishment of religion had a very precise
meaning in the 18th century. The Church of England of
the Anglican Church was the established religion of
Virginia. Other religions were publicly supported in
other states. I think a straightforward reading of
the First Amendment supports the view that all that
clause was intended to do was to prohibit the Federal
Government from establishing an official religion of
the United States and, conversely, that the Free
Exercise Clause was intended to keep the United States
from prohibiting the practice of any religion.

It seems to me that it is less than self-evident that
these provisions prohibit the saying of a
nondenominational prayer at a public school. At least
it never occurred to any one during our first 170
years that school prayer was forbidden by the Constitution.
But I take my orders from the Supreme Court."

[whottt]

Stem cell research.

Link?

#1. I want you to show me her stance on stem cell research. Not as a person, but as a politician.

#2. I want you to explain to me how her personal beliefs could impact stem cell research.

#3. I want you to show me Obama's stance on stem cell research.

#4. I then want you to show me McCain's stance on stem cell reseach.


For it is obvious to me that you do not know any of these things...and we both know it.

You just think you do...

And why do you think that?

Because you're a bigot. And you're unintelligent.


Thanks for playing.

Ignorance is bliss.

[jochhejaam]

And the anti-God crowd becomes agitated. :toast

Desperation time already? :lol Nothing about where Obama stands on the issues <don't feel bad, he doesn't know where he stands either>, as a last resort they debase themselves by throwing around slimeball accusations that serve as nothing more than to reflect poorly on their character.


What a piece of filth ploto, how do you manage to look yourself in the mirror? What a joke of a poster.


Funny thing is, the more Obama and his representatives attack, the farther they fall in the polls, so by all means, keep it coming.

[boutons_]

"Reverend Wright was being consistent in imposing his relgious beliefs on people."

He's a pastor, it's his job to impose his beliefs on his flock.

Where is HUSSEIN imposing his religious beliefs on anybody?

[JoeChalupa]

I don't give a damn about her religion.

[boutons_]

"her religion."

.... is not a problem, except that she's the choice of fringe "Christian" supremacists who want to create an American theocracy, superseding American legal system with their made-up shit about "God's will".

The Repugs' short-and-curlies are in the hands of these supremacists. McSame called them "agents of intolerance" until he caved in, like the chickenshit he is, embraced them, and selected an Islamic-like agent of intolerance as VP.

[sontinospurs]

Palin: Iraq War. Mission from God.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Palin: Iraq War. Mission from God.

That's not what she said, if any of you would read the entire quote. What she said was this:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

She didn't say this was a mission from God...she said that we should pray that it is.

[efrem1]

Obama's worldview has been heavily influenced by Wright. His denial of Wright was mere window-dressing. Boutons, you probably lived a comfortable life and not seen the horrors of theocracy of man in China, Cambodia, Romainia or the former Soviet Union. Frankly Boutons, I would not want to live in the company of death that your view would bring.

We have come a long way downhill ever since Churchill made a statement during the Blitz that the Battle of Britain was a battle to save Christian Civilization.

[101A]

That's not what she said, if any of you would read the entire quote. What she said was this:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

She didn't say this was a mission from God...she said that we should pray that it is.

Dammit, don't confuse them with the facts; they're on a roll!!!!!

[sontinospurs]

That's not what she said, if any of you would read the entire quote. What she said was this:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving do to what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for -- that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan."

She didn't say this was a mission from God...she said that we should pray that it is.

Why cant you just admit that she's going to govern (if elected) based on her religious beliefs. Its already out there. abortion, creationism.

[sontinospurs]

Why cant you just admit that she's going to govern (if elected) based on her religious beliefs. Its already out there. abortion, creationism.

Ya know, all these questions could be answered in a simple interview. And I'm not talking with Charles Gibson. But I guess that's wishful thinking.:bang

[AZLouis]

Link?

#1. I want you to show me her stance on stem cell research. Not as a person, but as a politician.

#2. I want you to explain to me how her personal beliefs could impact stem cell research.

#3. I want you to show me Obama's stance on stem cell research.

#4. I then want you to show me McCain's stance on stem cell reseach.



#1 According to an October 2006 profile in the Anchorage Daily News, Palin opposes stem cell research, physician-assisted suicide, and state health benefits for same-sex partners.
Source: Boston Globe, "A valentine to evangelical base", p. A12 Aug 30, 2008 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Abortion.htm

#2
A significant part of Palin’s base of support lies among social and Christian conservatives. Her positions on social issues emerged slowly during the campaign: on abortion (should be banned for anything other than saving the life of the mother), stem cell research (opposed), physician-assisted suicide (opposed), creationism (should be discussed in schools), state health benefits for same-sex partners (opposed, and supports a constitutional amendment to bar them).http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/8379502p-8274738c.html

Closest I could find.

#3
"Embryonic stem cells can be obtained from a number of sources, including in vitro fertilization. At this very moment, there are over 400,000 embryos being stored in over 400 facilities throughout the United States. The majority of these are reserved for infertile couples. However, many of these embryos will go unused, destined for permanent storage in a freezer or disposal. We should expand and accelerate research using these embryos, just as we should continue to explore the viability of adult stem cell use and cord blood use..."

...For these reasons, I'm proud to be a long-term supporter of greater stem cell research. While I was a member of the Illinois Senate, I was the chief cosponsor of the Ronald Reagan Biomedical Research Act, which would specifically permit embryonic stem cell research in Illinois, and establish review of this research by the Illinois Department of Public Health... http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060717-statement_of_su/index.php

#4
Stem cell research offers tremendous hope for those suffering from a variety of deadly diseases - hope for both cures and life-extending treatments. However, the compassion to relieve suffering and to cure deadly disease cannot erode moral and ethical principles.

For this reason, John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. To that end, Senator McCain voted to ban the practice of "fetal farming," making it a federal crime for researchers to use cells or fetal tissue from an embryo created for research purposes. Furthermore, he voted to ban attempts to use or obtain human cells gestated in animals. Finally, John McCain strongly opposes human cloning and voted to ban the practice, and any related experimentation, under federal law.

As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos.

Where federal funds are used for stem cell research, Senator McCain believes clear lines should be drawn that reflect a refusal to sacrifice moral values and ethical principles for the sake of scientific progress, and that any such research should be subject to strict federal guidelines.http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm

[I Love Me Some Me]

Why cant you just admit that she's going to govern (if elected) based on her religious beliefs. Its already out there. abortion, creationism.

Abortion is not a religious issue. Neither is creationism, for that matter.

[101A]

Why cant you just admit that she's going to govern (if elected) based on her religious beliefs. Its already out there. abortion, creationism.

Define "creationism".

I believe that God created the earth.

Doesn't that mean I believe in "crationism"?

I also KNOW that the Earth is 5 billion years old; dinosaurs showed up some 250 milliion years ago, and hung around for nearly 190 million years.

Do I believe in evolution and physics and the laws of nature? Yes. Do I believe it is all one big happy accident? No.

[101A]

As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos.

Where federal funds are used for stem cell research, Senator McCain believes clear lines should be drawn that reflect a refusal to sacrifice moral values and ethical principles for the sake of scientific progress, and that any such research should be subject to strict federal guidelines.

WHAT A RADICAL RELIGIOUS NUT-JOB!!!!!!

[101A]

NewsWeek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/157986/page/3)

The entire article is a rebuttal of much of the false information being spread about Palin; this section is relevant to this thread:


No Creationism in Schools
On Aug. 29, the Boston Globe reported that Palin was open to teaching creationism in public schools. That's true. She supports teaching creationism alongside evolution, though she has not actively pursued such a policy as governor.

In an Oct. 25, 2006, debate, when asked about teaching alternatives to evolution, Palin replied: Palin, Oct. 25, 2006: Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject – creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides.
A couple of days later, Palin amended that statement in an interview with the Anchorage Daily News, saying:
Palin, Oct. 2006: I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum.
After her election, Palin let the matter drop. The Associated Press reported Sept 3: "Palin's children attend public schools and Palin has made no push to have creationism taught in them. ... It reflects a hands-off attitude toward mixing government and religion (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=Religion) by most Alaskans." The article was headlined, "Palin has not pushed creation science as governor (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_creationism)." It was written by Dan Joling, who reports from Anchorage and has covered Alaska for 30 years.

[TheMadHatter]

Anyone who believes in Creationism has no business being in our United States government. It's a fucking fairy tale. And we wonder why foreigners think Americans are so stupid...

[ploto]

I find people's responses to this thread extremely hilarious because all the assumptions that have been made about my faith. I have been called part of the anti-God crowd. I happen to be a person of great and deep faith who is highly involved in religious and spiritual activities and who has sent my child to a religiously affiliated school his entire life. I am not a person who has an anti-religion position, at all. It is an extremely important part of my life.

My concern is not that she is a woman of faith but how she "uses" it. You do not make policy decisions and then claim it is God's will. Period. You do not know that it is God's will that Alaska build a pipeline and to call it that and imply that those who disagree with the policy are somehow oppposing God's will is ridiculous. As a woman of faith, I am sick and tired of politicians prostituting my faith to try to sway voters and to get what they want.

I am a firm believer that it is those within a group who are most called to speak against what those within that group do. For example, Mulsims had the greatest responsibility to speak out against 9-11 and Catholics the greatest responsibility to speak out against the clergy abuses. So, I as a person of faith who takes my faith very sacredly am in the most responsible position to call out the people who abuse the claim of faith for the wrong motives- political ones. But like clockwork, people accuse those who oppose the mingling of faith and political policy with being anti-God, but I am interested in the integrity of both of those systems.

[101A]

You do not make policy decisions and then claim it is God's will. Period.

Link where she did this, please.

Be specific.

[101A]

Our father
who art in heaven
hallowed by thy name
thy kingdom come
thy will be done....

That is what she prayed for; and Jesus taught us that one, specifically.

[ploto]

Our father
who art in heaven
hallowed by thy name
thy kingdom come
thy will be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built

[Anti.Hero]

Better to govern from GOD than from Marx mothafuckas! :lol


It's funny watching Obama try to be religious when you know he knows his base are new-age trendy wannabes who think religion is so not cool.

[IceColdBrewski]

Why cant you just admit that she's going to govern (if elected) based on her religious beliefs. Its already out there. abortion, creationism.


Last I checked, Palin isn't running for President. If elected, she'll be playing by McCain's rules, not hers.

[baseline bum]

Anyone who thinks creationism should be taught in schools' science classes is a nut. It's a myth, and has no business being taught as something that follows the scientific method. How many people have you ever heard demand that churches teach evolution as an alternative view in their sermons?

[2centsworth]

Anyone who thinks creationism should be taught in schools' science classes is a nut. It's a myth, and has no business being taught as something that follows the scientific method. How many people have you ever heard demand that churches teach evolution as an alternative view in their sermons?

I don't agree with church being legislated. However, to deny the importance of the church to our country is equally nutty. There has to be a happy median.

[101A]

Anyone who thinks creationism should be taught in schools' science classes is a nut. It's a myth, and has no business being taught as something that follows the scientific method. How many people have you ever heard demand that churches teach evolution as an alternative view in their sermons?

Palin specifically DID NOT call for creationism to be taught in public schools. Ultimately, there's nothing to teach.

[boutons_]

Palin said she was for debating/discussing creationism in public schools, which gives credence to a Christian-biased fairy tale in a taxpayer-funded public school.

If a law permitting or requiring that "Christian" creationism be taught in public schools, it's a legit assumption that Palin would support it.

It's also legit to assume she wouldn't support also teaching non-Christian religions' creation fairy tales.

Easy point for voters decide on.

[101A]

Palin said she was for debating/discussing creationism in public schools, which gives credence to a Christian-biased fairy tale in a taxpayer-funded public school.

If a law permitting or requiring that "Christian" creationism be taught in public schools, it's a legit assumption that Palin would support it.

Easy point for voters decide on.


Based on the article above. that assumption is not at all legitimate.

Are you calling for a law specifically FORBIDDING a debate? Are you saying Christian, Jewish and Muslim children cannot mention their beliefs in school, that they should be censored?

[boutons_]

"that assumption is not at all legitimate."

of course it is. Do you think Bible-literalist, junk-"religion" Palin would vote against such a law?

"Are you calling for a law specifically FORBIDDING a debate?"

no, but nice baiting attempt.

Public schools should only teach science that is generally recognized as being man's best effort to understand the universe.

"Are you saying Christian, Jewish and Muslim children cannot mention their beliefs in school, that they should be censored"

In what context of a science course on evolution would students' religious fairy tales be the same as the school's official science teaching? The students can say and debate whatever they want but in a classroom, the teacher teaches the official curriculum. The public school and teacher giving non-scientific religious fairy tales an airing on equal footing as science would be to give those fairy tales credence.

[baseline bum]

Based on the article above. that assumption is not at all legitimate.

Are you calling for a law specifically FORBIDDING a debate? Are you saying Christian, Jewish and Muslim children cannot mention their beliefs in school, that they should be censored?

Religion has no place in science classes. Belief is not part of the scientific method, so there is no room for religious debate there.

[ggoose25]

Religion has no place in science classes. Belief is not part of the scientific method, so there is no room for religious debate there.

I want to agree with you, but technically science is all theory. You can't actually prove anything.

That being said, I don't want my children believing that evolution is hocus pocus, because I believe in the evidence. But I do believe in God, and think there is some room for divine inspiration in the creation argument. That could be another theory that kids could be taught.

[ggoose25]

The only caveat is that if you teach it from the Christian perspective, then would you be obliged to then include other religious teachings of creation as to not be discriminatory?

Thats for the lawyers to answer.... I'd rather just not open up the bag of worms and keep science in the classroom and religious instruction in church and in the home.

[baseline bum]

I want to agree with you, but technically science is all theory. You can't actually prove anything.

That being said, I don't want my children believing that evolution is hocus pocus, because I believe in the evidence. But I do believe in God, and think there is some room for divine inspiration in the creation argument. That could be another theory that kids could be taught.

Technically, science is theory. Religion is hypothesis.

[boutons_]

"technically science is all theory"

It's the nature of scientific method. But a theory that explains/fits the evidence and makes predictions that are born out is a pretty strong theory.

The creationist fairy tale has no evidence to explain.

[ggoose25]

Good points.

[whottt]

#1 According to an October 2006 profile in the Anchorage Daily News, Palin opposes stem cell research, physician-assisted suicide, and state health benefits for same-sex partners.
Source: Boston Globe, "A valentine to evangelical base", p. A12 Aug 30, 2008 http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Abortion.htm


http://dwb.adn.com/news/government/legislature/story/8525563p-8419318c.html


That is a misleading statement...








#2 http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/8379502p-8274738c.html


http://explorations.chasrmartin.com/2008/09/06/palin-rumors/









#3 http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060717-statement_of_su/index.php

#4 http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-obamacain8-2008jun08,0,543931.story


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/118609.php


http://www.obama-mccain.info/compare-obama-mccain-stem-cells.php



You want more?


So like I was saying:



#2. I want you to explain to me how her personal beliefs could impact stem cell research.

You explained nothing...you just linked the same bullshit as every other idiot on the forum.

[whottt]

http://explorations.chasrmartin.com/.../palin-rumors/



Be suree to read that so you can see that posters like boutons and ploto are either liars...or just incredibly stupid people who don't bother to check information not gained on liberal blogs.

[whottt]

Funny thing is...her daughter recieved sex education in school :lmao

[KenMcCoy]

the boyfriend must have missed the day that they put condoms on bananas though.

[ploto]

That being said, I don't want my children believing that evolution is hocus pocus, because I believe in the evidence. But I do believe in God, and think there is some room for divine inspiration in the creation argument. That could be another theory that kids could be taught.

Taught by religious institutions.

Why are some people so intent on teaching these religious principles in public schools. Aren't they teaching them to their own children in their own homes and churches?

That is why I choose to send my child to a religious and academic school. He learned all about creationism in theology but also about the principles of evolution in biology. I, as well as his school, have no problem merging the two. If I sent him to public school I would have no right to expect them to teach him about creationism. That is the job of parents and religious institutions.

Just like prayer. My child is led in prayer in school all the time. It is part of the expected routine in a religious school. But I would have no right to expect a public school to impose a prayer time on all the students. If my child wanted to pray to himself quietly before he started a test, no one should stop him- that is freedom of religion. But it is not the role of the public school to impose specific religious practices on anyone. That is my job as a parent and my chosen church, synagogue, or mosque.

[ploto]

Be suree to read that so you can see that posters like boutons and ploto are either liars...or just incredibly stupid people who don't bother to check information not gained on liberal blogs.

The article I posted came from CNN.

[ggoose25]

Taught by religious institutions.

Why are some people so intent on teaching these religious principles in public schools. Aren't they teaching them to their own children in their own homes and churches?

That is why I choose to send my child to a religious and academic school. He learned all about creationism in theology but also about the principles of evolution in biology. I, as well as his school, have no problem merging the two. If I sent him to public school I would have no right to expect them to teach him about creationism. That is the job of parents and religious institutions.

Just like prayer. My child is led in prayer in school all the time. It is part of the expected routine in a religious school. But I would have no right to expect a public school to impose a prayer time on all the students. If my child wanted to pray to himself quietly before he started a test, no one should stop him- that is freedom of religion. But it is not the role of the public school to impose specific religious practices on anyone. That is my job as a parent and my chosen church, synagogue, or mosque.

Well, I agree. But my point was that some creationists argue that if science is a theory that can't be proved, why are we teaching that and not religion in the classroom as well?

Baseline bum correctly pointed out that there is a distinction between theory and faith, something that I was overlooking. You can't really do an experiment to test a faith based assertion or belief, the way you can with science.

[101A]

The students can say and debate whatever they want but in a classroom,

Great.

Then I think you and Palin are in agreement.

[whottt]

I pretty much think that anyone that refuses to believe in a higher power is of lesser intelligence and intellectual capacity.


The reason I think this is that man is the only creature on this entire planet that conceives of such things. It's what sets us apart from animals...


And we've concieved of such things for as long as we've been men.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1753326.stm

http://www.apollon.uio.no/vis/art/2006_4/Artikler/python_english


In fact it's possible we concieved of such things before we were men:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3047383.stm





It doesn't take intellectual capacity to not believe something you can't see exists...every animal does it...and infant does it. Every single celled organism does it.

It's a very childlike and primitive view.



More importantly with regards to America...


The first anti-slavery movement in the United States were Fundamentalist Christians...and the ideals in our Constitution of all men being equal came out of their beliefs as well...



Don't tell me it was liberals that came up with those things....because I am sitting here watching a bunch of liberals base someone's intelligence on their religious beliefs...you guys would have never come up with something like all people being equal...you're too bigoted to do that. In fact you guys can't even tell when someone is being smeared...because it aligns with your bigoted view of reality.

[whottt]

The article I posted came from CNN.


No shit...that's why I said this:





Be sure to read that so you can see that posters like boutons and ploto are either liars...or just incredibly stupid people who don't bother to check information not gained on liberal blogs.

[101A]

Well, I agree. But my point was that some creationists argue that if science is a theory that can't be proved, why are we teaching that and not religion in the classroom as well?

Baseline bum correctly pointed out that there is a distinction between theory and faith, something that I was overlooking. You can't really do an experiment to test a faith based assertion or belief, the way you can with science.

Evolution as "theory" is a misnomer as lay people understand the word - evolution exists, it is fact. It must be taught it school. That God created the universe, is something many believers take on faith; some, like myself, do not read Genesis as a literal description of events - others, however, do all of us believers a disservice by reading it as "errrrr. gospel", and using that to promote the wack ideas mentioned in this thread about 10,000 year old earth, children playing with dinosaurs, etc....

However, Governor Palin HAS NOT indicated she is the latter - her actual statements put her more in the camp of the former. Also, after the debate she had, where it came up, she sent out a clarification statement SPECIFICALLY calling for creationism to NOT be required educational material, but that children SHOULD be allowed to discuss their beliefs.

I believe the chances of their existing an "intelligent designer" are at least as great as the chance that from nothing sprang what ulitmately became Michael Phelps, the yo-yo and Gummi Bears.

[baseline bum]

I pretty much think that anyone that refuses to believe in a higher power is of lesser intelligence and intellectual capacity.


Which makes more sense? God created us in his image or we created him in ours?

[101A]

Which makes more sense? God created us in his image or we created him in ours?

Einstein: "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed".

Fact.

Me: "Where did all of this stuff come from?"

[ggoose25]

Evolution as "theory" is a misnomer as lay people understand the word - evolution exists, it is fact. It must be taught it school. That God created the universe, is something many believers take on faith; some, like myself, do not read Genesis as a literal description of events - others, however, do all of us believers a disservice by reading it as "errrrr. gospel", and using that to promote the wack ideas mentioned in this thread about 10,000 year old earth, children playing with dinosaurs, etc....

However, Governor Palin HAS NOT indicated she is the latter - her actual statements put her more in the camp of the former. Also, after the debate she had, where it came up, she sent out a clarification statement SPECIFICALLY calling for creationism to NOT be required educational material, but that children SHOULD be allowed to discuss their beliefs.

I believe the chances of their existing an "intelligent designer" are at least as great as the chance that from nothing sprang what ulitmately became Michael Phelps, the yo-yo and Gummi Bears.

Look, I'm a whole hearted believer in evolution. But you can't prove it, sorry. Theories change (not that I think this one will deviate too radically) over time which is the nature of scientific progress.

If what you say is true, then I'm glad Gov. Palin allows discussion in the classroom and not imposition of creationism.

And I'm glad she's a woman of faith. But what bothers me about her is the discussion of "God's will". I pray that God's will be done, but I don't pretend to know what it is. And some of the comments she makes implies her belief that the Iraq war is in some way part of God's will. That the Alaskan pipeline is God's will.

I would be much more comfortable if she said, "Let God's will be done." Instead of naming specific agenda items as fulfillment of God's plan.

[ploto]

Palin talked about U.S. troops in Iraq, and she put it this way: "Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that's from God." Even some Pentecostals say that could mean that the U.S. is in a holy war with the Muslim world.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/09/perkins.qa/index.html

[baseline bum]

Einstein: "Matter can neither be created nor destroyed".

Fact.

Me: "Where did all of this stuff come from?"

It came from white man in the sky?

[whottt]

ggoose...there is ample evidence of evolution.


I don't get why people think they are opposing ideologies...



By the way, spiritualism is the parent of science, and art,....not the sibling.

[101A]

Look, I'm a whole hearted believer in evolution. But you can't prove it, sorry.

There's a bacteria called MRSA that would choose to disagree with you.

Shit evolves; deal with it. Survival of the fittest; strongest survives and reproduces - passing on its genes to the next generation. THIS IS NOT THEORY; THIS IS FACT!!!!!! It is proven over and over again

Did Humans evolve from another creature? THAT is theory, and is not proven. Evolution itself? NOT THEORY - it happens.

[101A]

It came from white man in the sky?


Good answer.

[whottt]

Has anyone figured out yet that Palin hasn't exactly said Creationaism should be taught in schools? Or are we still bigoting her?

[ggoose25]

Mine is more of an ideological argument about theory never being able to be called fact, than it is about the evidence of evolution, which I agree is more than enough.

I also think you can easily reconcile belief in a divine creator with the theory of evolution. But neither are able to be proven no matter how much you would like to.

[ggoose25]

There's a bacteria called MRSA that would choose to disagree with you.

Shit evolves; deal with it. Survival of the fittest; strongest survives and reproduces - passing on its genes to the next generation. THIS IS NOT THEORY; THIS IS FACT!!!!!! It is proven over and over again

Did Humans evolve from another creature? THAT is theory, and is not proven. Evolution itself? NOT THEORY - it happens.

No. Again, you are probably 99.999999999% right that evolution is correct. But you can never say that a theory is fact. Science isn't set up that way. Theory is based on accumulation of facts, but never becomes one.

[101A]

Palin talked about U.S. troops in Iraq, and she put it this way: "Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that's from God." Even some Pentecostals say that could mean that the U.S. is in a holy war with the Muslim world.


You Fail.

This is the ACTUAL quote:


“Pray for our military. He [Palin's son] is going to be deployed in September to Iraq – pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right for this country – that our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God, that’s what he have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan and that it is God’s plan.”


She prays that what is being done IS from God - in essence she is praying that if it is NOT from God, than it should not be.

She DOES NOT presume to speak for God; she prays, simply, that "God's will be done", and that our leaders are, in fact, lead by that.

Go ahead and bark up that tree, however. Nearly 50% of this country goes to church regularly; if you want to pillory somebody for simply PRAYING for our leaders and our troops; you are going to turn off many people very quickly. Damn, talk about closed-minded and hateful; you anti-religious types take the cake.

[Supergirl]

Why are you emphasizing a Jew not even from her own Church saying that Israel is being punished?



That's not even her minister or someone from her Church...that is a guest speaker Jew saying that...seriously, do you really think you can extrapolate that to her beliefs?


Does it bother you being dishonest plotoi? Lying to yourself? Would me.



The rest of it I don't care...if you go to Church they say stupid shit like that.

At least they didn't say fuck America...

"Jews for Jesus" aren't Jews. Keep up. I know it's hard. "Jews for Jesus" is a Christian evangelizing tactic - they believe somehow calling themselves that will make Jews more likely to convert.

[Supergirl]

I don't agree with church being legislated. However, to deny the importance of the church to our country is equally nutty. There has to be a happy median.

The person you're responding to didn't say anything about legislating church. He said that he didn't think teaching "creationism" in a science class is appropriate - since it isn't science, it shouldn't be there. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe about their "imaginary friends" as Richard Dawkins calls them, but those beliefs should not affect the science we teach in schools or the rights we grant to all citizens of this country.

[101A]

No. Again, you are probably 99.999999999% right that evolution is correct. But you can never say that a theory is fact. Science isn't set up that way. Theory is based on accumulation of facts, but never becomes one.

Learn (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html)

[101A]

The person you're responding to didn't say anything about legislating church. He said that he didn't think teaching "creationism" in a science class is appropriate - since it isn't science, it shouldn't be there. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe about their "imaginary friends" as Richard Dawkins calls them, but those beliefs should not affect the science we teach in schools or the rights we grant to all citizens of this country.

Good.

In practice, if not substance, you agree with Governor Palin. Can she expect your vote?

[ploto]

Nearly 50% of this country goes to church regularly; if you want to pillory somebody for simply PRAYING for our leaders and our troops; you are going to turn off many people very quickly. Damn, talk about closed-minded and hateful; you anti-religious types take the cake.

Again- I am anti-religious. I was in church this morning- how about you?

[whottt]

Which makes more sense? God created us in his image or we created him in ours?




There are a lot of ways to interpret the statement that we were created in his image...some of them make a great deal of sense and others don't.


Look....if you want some kind of concession that the bible, especially the old Testament, is some kind of amalgamation of stories and beliefs dating back into pre-history...sure it is. EG: The story of Noah originated in Mesopotamia...December 25th came from the Roman festival celebrating the Sun God....and this stuff has been changed and altered over time, intermingled with other beliefs.

The 10 commandments are still the 10 commandments though..and there is similar code in every major religion...


And I challenge anyone to go live their life by breaking as many commandments as they possibly can...you won't have to wait for death to find "hell", you'll find it rather quickly right here on Earth.


I still want someone to explain to me how they knew of things like planetary creation disks in Genesis...not to mention pretty much nailed the sequence of life originating on Earth.


No...something definitely happened there. They didn't just pull that out of their asses.


As for the intelligence behind it...


Just name me 1 great atheistic civilization, in all of history....

[Spurminator]

101A, good job breaking down the context and meaning of the Palin quote. I do think some political leaders go too far with their references to God's Will being carried out in American policy but Palin's statement is harmless.

[ggoose25]

Learn (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html)

Maybe I should be posting in the philosophical forum.

[whottt]

"Jews for Jesus" aren't Jews. Keep up. I know it's hard. "Jews for Jesus" is a Christian evangelizing tactic - they believe somehow calling themselves that will make Jews more likely to convert.

Well if was founded by a Jew, I imagine they have converted some jews, so I don't see how you can prove they are strict Christians...


As for their evangelizing...it's not near as pushy as the lefts leftisizing....


People in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones.


Beyond that...the spoke at her Church she likely had nothing to do with it. And the primary focus of that group is probably getting money, like every other oranized religion...so I really don't see what the big deal is.


It's not against the law to try and convert people to Christianity...people are free to tell them to fuck off.


And if people forcing their beliefs on others is such an important cause to you, then you need take a good hard look at what the left is doing these days...because they are by far the most pushy segment of our society.

[whottt]

So anyway...I just wanted to see where this went and what people would say..

But the reality of it is Palin was born Roman Catholic, she converted to Pentecostal I am guessing becuase they probably didn't have a Roman Catholic Church in a town of 9000...

And then she left her Pentecostal Church to join a non-denominational Church because the she felt the Pentecostal Church was too extreme...



Yeah she's a real religiously intolerant nutcase...what a bunch of assholes you guys are.

You are more judgemental and self righteous than she is...



And frankly Supergirl...I've read your posts extensively and I think you are 10 times the fruitcake she is. No offense.

[baseline bum]

I still want someone to explain to me how they knew of things like planetary creation disks in Genesis...not to mention pretty much nailed the sequence of life originating on Earth.

What the hell does this mean? They nailed the sequence of life on Earth being created in 7 days?

[2centsworth]

God exist. For you athiest, here's one of your heros who now believes the same.

http://www.sciencefindsgod.com/famous-atheist-now-believes-in-god.htm

[whottt]

What the hell does this mean? They nailed the sequence of life on Earth being created in 7 days?

No...forget abouy days and shit dude. You need to understand that these stories have been passed down through many languages and interpreted and reinterpreted many times, translated and retranslated...many of thse stories incorporate beliefs told in stories that pre-date recorded history.


What I mean by that statement is in Genesis they describe pre-planetary disks and if you remove the context of days...and just look at the sequence itself...it's pretty much scientifically accurate, in sequence with the way the Solar System was formed and life originated on Earth.

Darkness then light. Which is accurate, there was darkness before there was light.

Then after light, which we could call the Sun, the masses of gas and dust, the primoridal ooze, formed into planets. That's easily a pre-planetary disk.

Then came the seas.
Then same vegetation.
Then sea life.
Then avian life.
Then animal life.
Then humans...or more specifically Adam.

Even science now says every human being on Earth can likely trace their ancestry back to a one person.

Look at the sequence...not the context.



How did they know that when this stuff took place billions to hundreds of thousands of years before their time and their civilization pre-dated science?


Either:

1. Moses actually was told this when he went up into the mountain.
2. He made an incredibly good guess,
3. At some point before recorded history, they had levels of science that we aren't aware of, which is a distinct possiblity, and there is some evidence that may be the case...science which was lost and the only thing remained was the basic knowledge they learned.


I'll just point out that you can't expect a pre scientific Civilization to define things in scientific terms...since spirituality was their view of the world, anything they were told, anything they saw, would take on a spiritual or divine perspective.


Nontheless...the sequence is pretty much dead on and they seem to have an awareness of the Solar System and Planetary Creation that it would not have been possible for them to posess based on what we know of them.

Read Genesis some time...read the various theories behind evolution and planet and solar system formation...and then try to think of how you would describe those things without a scientific vocabulary or any concept of science.


Then you'll see...Genesis is hardly the product of an ignorant mind. More like something that when combined with the extremely effective rules for building a civilization encoded in the 10 commandments...would make the person who came up with this in a pre-science civilization, easily the smartest person who ever lived.


Or to put it another way, if all Moses did was spend the weekend up in the mountains on Shrooms, and he came up with both genesis and the 10 commandments...I would say he had one hell of an enlightening trip.

Even if he was picking and choosing from other religions of that time...he still picked the correct aspects to incorporate at a genius level.




Science is just now figuring out we had a single ancestor...the bible has been saying that for 3000 years.


Nothing ignorant or backwards about it...

[romad_20]

I pretty much think that anyone that refuses to believe in a higher power is of lesser intelligence and intellectual capacity.


The reason I think this is that man is the only creature on this entire planet that conceives of such things. It's what sets us apart from animals...


is this a fucking serious post? You have got to be kidding me.

[whottt]

is this a fucking serious post? You have got to be kidding me.

I am dead serious...


1. Show me any great atheistic civilization.
2. Show me an animal or creature other than man that concieves of higher beings.


Nothing intellectual or intelligent about being an atheist...every creature on this planet other than man is an atheist....and every person born begins life as an atheist....

Spirituality is the product of intelligence...not ignorance.

[baseline bum]

Moses is as much of a myth as the Garden of Eden.

[jochhejaam]

Again- I am anti-religious. I was in church this morning- how about you?
How utterly incongruous. If that smug self righteous statement doesn't define "religion", I don't know what does.
Holier-than-thou statements such as that, do absolutely nothing to further the message of Christ, and in fact serve only to alienate the lost that Christ died for.

Two of the more notable characteristics of Christ were his compassion and his humility, characteristics you have shown yourself to be noticably lacking in, both in your attack on Palin and your pompous proclamation that "I was in church, how about you"?
Other than you claiming to be a Christian, it would not have been evident.


And BTW, since you put such great emphasis on being in "church", allow me to point out that frequenting a church doesn't make you a Christian, anymore than frequenting an art gallery makes you an artist.


<preparing for a self righteous lecture mixed with some more holier-than-thou rhetoric>

[TheMadHatter]

LMAO at whott trying to explain Genesis as something other than a fairytale.

The BIBLE IS A GIANT BOOK OF FAIRYTALES. If you believe otherwise you are a moron. Now you can believe the Bible is a book of stories with good moral teachings in them, that's fine.....but once you start saying that the Bible is real and factual you cross over to Idiot Land.

[efrem1]

Anyone who believes in Creationism has no business being in our United States government. It's a fucking fairy tale. And we wonder why foreigners think Americans are so stupid...

The child of Karl Marx and Nietzsche has spoken.

[efrem1]

LMAO at whott trying to explain Genesis as something other than a fairytale.

The BIBLE IS A GIANT BOOK OF FAIRYTALES. If you believe otherwise you are a moron. Now you can believe the Bible is a book of stories with good moral teachings in them, that's fine.....but once you start saying that the Bible is real and factual you cross over to Idiot Land.

Moron. Idiot. Way to go on that scholarly defense!!:lol

[Spurminator]

Sounds more like a Hitchens type.

[TheMadHatter]

The Bible is a book of fairytales. For a book inspired by God it sure has been through a lot of revisions. The bottomline is the only people who really believe the Bible is factual are idiots. Yes, idiots.

[efrem1]

It was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic and has been preserved through the centuries. If it weren't for Christianity, we would have slavery, the lack of hospitals and general human sacrifice across the world. Atheism has no meaning. What is right and wrong is all relative.

[boutons_]

So the alternative to Bible literalism is only godless atheism?

You people are so fucking stupid.

[baseline bum]

Thank god there was Christianity to brainwash those slaves into thinking their suffering was noble.

[TheMadHatter]

Like I said, the Bible isn't inherently wrong. What's wrong is idiots who believe it is 100% factual. It is a story book of fiction, with good lessons and morals within. Nothing more.

[efrem1]

So the alternative to Bible literalism is only godless atheism?

You people are so fucking stupid.

Maybe Boutons you should be the dispenser of all truth. Or should we have a poll to determine morality on a day by day basis? After all the Supreme Court has developed an evolving standard of decency doctrine. What's right today is wrong tomorrow.

[efrem1]

Like I said, the Bible isn't inherently wrong. What's wrong is idiots who believe it is 100% factual. It is a story book of fiction, with good lessons and morals within. Nothing more.

Who determines what is "good" and "moral"?

[boutons_]

"Maybe Boutons you should be the dispenser of all truth"

thanks for your support.

Can you address the false opposition of Bible literalism vs atheism? If you can't, I'll dispense you some truth.

[efrem1]

"Maybe Boutons you should be the dispenser of all truth"

thanks for your support.

Can you address the false opposition of Bible literalism vs atheism? If you can't, I'll dispense you some truth.

As Pontius Pliate said to Jesus, "What is truth"?

[Mr. Body]

The Bible clearly was not meant to be taken literally. It's sacriligious to take it literally, because we read it in translation.

[efrem1]

To paraphrase CLinton, it depends on what the term "literal" is. For example God owns everything, not just cattle on a thousand hills. In contrast, thou shalt not steal is concrete.

[TheMadHatter]

A century from now people will wonder WTF we were thinking believing thousand year old fairy tales as fact.

[efrem1]

A century from now people will wonder WTF we were thinking believing thousand year old fairy tales as fact.

A century from now, the gospel will be spread to the ends of the earth. People will say Dios es bueno, Gott ist sehr gut and will throw copies of Hitchens and Dawkins books into the wastebasket for lack of use.

Namaste!!

[Spurminator]

MadHatter sounds like the classic 20-something breaking away from his strict religious upbringing.

Call your mother, MH, she loves you.

[TheMadHatter]

No I sound like an enlightened individual who refuses to believe in thousand year old fairy tales because my parents did. I sound like one who can reason and use his intellect to see what is clearly bullshit in this world.

You are a sheep. You believe in the Bible because it is the easy thing to do.

[Spurminator]

because my parents did.

Yep, I was right.

[efrem1]

No I sound like an enlightened individual who refuses to believe in thousand year old fairy tales because my parents did. I sound like one who can reason and use his intellect to see what is clearly bullshit in this world.

You are a sheep. You believe in the Bible because it is the easy thing to do.

Can you define what constitutes "bullshit'? If it is hypocrisy or bribery Abramoff style or mass murder, why should you care? It is all random molecules floating around. Are you trying to borrow morality from the Bible? Say it ain't so!!!

[TheMadHatter]

Morality existed pre-Bible.

I don't need the Bible to have a sense of morality. Oh and dinosaurs are real.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone who believes in Creationism has no business being in our United States government. It's a fucking fairy tale. And we wonder why foreigners think Americans are so stupid...

It could be said that anyone who doesn't believe doesn't belong in government too. It's an opinion. Not a fairy tale.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone who thinks creationism should be taught in schools' science classes is a nut. It's a myth, and has no business being taught as something that follows the scientific method. How many people have you ever heard demand that churches teach evolution as an alternative view in their sermons?
There are holes in evolution that can be explained by intelligent design. Hell, we are now doing genetic engineering ourselves. Who's to say a higher power didn't? As for creation, what the bible describes in genisis when taken from the Torah rather than current translations can be simply desribing terraforming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming)!

Keep an open mind please.

Do you also belive the earth is flat?

[TheMadHatter]

No, there are no holes in evolution that could EVER be explained by ID. ID is a fucking fantasy fairy tale with ZERO scientific evidence to back it up. It has no business being taught alongside EVOLUTION.

Evolution = SCIENCE
ID = FUCKING FAIRYTALE

[baseline bum]

Holy fuck, you actually believe speculation should be taught as science? Do you believe the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution too?

[efrem1]

Morality existed pre-Bible.

I don't need the Bible to have a sense of morality. Oh and dinosaurs are real.

But without the Bible, any person's sense of morality is just as valid as another's. I think that you have to tolerate such things as human sacrafice and poltical courruption because in your wolrdview, they are valid values of morality which are equal to integrity.

Yes, dinosaurs are real. Next question.

[efrem1]

No, there are no holes in evolution that could EVER be explained by ID. ID is a fucking fantasy fairy tale with ZERO scientific evidence to back it up. It has no business being taught alongside EVOLUTION.

Evolution = SCIENCE
ID = FUCKING FAIRYTALE

One has to have faith in evolution just as much as creationism. I haven't seen any iguanas sprout wings lately or elephants sprouting flippers and swimming in the open ocean.

[baseline bum]

One has to have faith in evolution just as much as creationism. I haven't seen any iguanas sprout wings lately or elephants sprouting flippers and swimming in the open ocean.

Bull fucking shit. Evolution is a scientific theory while creationism is speculation, interpolation, and wishing.

[101A]

One has to have faith in evolution just as much as creationism. I haven't seen any iguanas sprout wings lately or elephants sprouting flippers and swimming in the open ocean.

No. Read the whole thread. Evolution HAPPENS. It is fact. The only theory that remains is exactly HOW it happens.

And I believe God created everything.

[TheMadHatter]

Evolution has nothing to do with the ORIGINS OF MAN, that's abiogenesis you fucking dumbshit Christian retards. The Christian right is collectively the DUMBEST group of individuals in America.

[101A]

Evolution has nothing to do with the ORIGINS OF MAN, that's abiogenesis you fucking dumbshit Christian retards. The Christian right is collectively the DUMBEST group of individuals in America.

What are you so upset about?

[I Love Me Some Me]

Evolution has nothing to do with the ORIGINS OF MAN, that's abiogenesis you fucking dumbshit Christian retards. The Christian right is collectively the DUMBEST group of individuals in America.

So then...explain abiogenesis.

[ploto]

Two of the more notable characteristics of Christ were his compassion and his humility, characteristics you have shown yourself to be noticably lacking in, both in your attack on Palin and your pompous proclamation that "I was in church, how about you"?

And BTW, since you put such great emphasis on being in "church", allow me to point out that frequenting a church doesn't make you a Christian, anymore than frequenting an art gallery makes you an artist.

<preparing for a self righteous lecture mixed with some more holier-than-thou rhetoric>

Aren't you the person who called me a piece of filth?



What a piece of filth ploto, how do you manage to look yourself in the mirror?

Now you are lecturing me-- and even moreso JUDGING me and my relationship with God. That is the epitomy of self-righteousness for you to think that it is your job to judge me and whether or not I am a person of faith.You are the one using YOUR criteria to judge who belongs and who does not.

I posted what I did to respond to the person who called me ANTI-GOD and ANTI-RELIGIOUS to show that I am neither.

This is a political discussion and I have the duty to voice my opinions of the POLICY of a person running for office- POLICY with which I do not agree. I do not agree with claiming that it is God's will that people unite to build a pipeline in Alaska. I find that offensive as a person of faith and I have a right to speak out against it. You are just mad because you are Republican and it has nothing really to do with faith at all.

As for your analogy- it is just plain stupid. A person in an art gallery does not particpate, they only spectate. At church I am a participant in the faith life of my community.

[101A]

Like I said, the Bible isn't inherently wrong. What's wrong is idiots who believe it is 100% factual. It is a story book of fiction, with good lessons and morals within. Nothing more.

Have you ever actually read the bible?

MUCH of it is historically accurate; not fiction.

Jesus was an actual person, who actually walked, talked and had followers. The New Testament is a record of his actions and life. It is, as much as anything else, a biography.

[101A]

I do not agree with claiming that it is God's will that people unite to build a pipeline in Alaska. I find that offensive as a person of faith and I have a right to speak out against it.

Good, because that is not what Palin said.

[baseline bum]

How come the bible leaves such holes in their Jesus account? Was he a stoner or a thug or something in his teenage years?

[101A]

How come the bible leaves such holes in their Jesus account? Was he a stoner or a thug or something in his teenage years?


The Dead Sea Scrolls are said to contain some reference to this; the rest of the New Testament was written by his disciples (with some other contributors), and compiled later as a text to represent the substance and intent of his teachings and sacrifice. As his disciples were only such during the final three years of his life; THAT is where the bible has most of its focus.

[Extra Stout]

At some point Democrat partisans in the media will figure out that they are repeatedly scoring on their own goal with this Palin frenzy. Hopefully that realization will come around mid-November.

Away, fact-checking the Palin religion reports:

1) Wasilla A/G is wrapped up in Third Wave: almost true. It is definitely associated with the Prophetic/Apostolic movement in Pentecostalism, which has has serious credibility issues.

2) Wasilla Bible Church is wrapped up in Third Wave: false.

3) Jews for Jesus preach that contemporary violence in Israel is specifically God's judgment for Jews rejecting Jesus: false.

4) Palin believes that the natural gas pipeline and the Iraq war are God's will: false. That was rather ordinary petitionary prayer language about "God's will" being done in a particular situation.

Let none of this fact-checking dissuade Democrat partisans. Please keep up the attacks. And by all means, when trying to gauge the opinions of suburban American women on Palin, venture no further than Marin, Westchester, and Snohomish Counties for your polling, and when trying to learn about how churchgoers think of her, stick mostly to Episcopal gatherings. I want you to have an accurate picture.

[101A]

At some point Democrat partisans in the media will figure out that they are repeatedly scoring on their own goal with this Palin frenzy. Hopefully that realization will come around mid-November.

Away, fact-checking the Palin religion reports:

1) Wasilla A/G is wrapped up in Third Wave: almost true. It is definitely associated with the Prophetic/Apostolic movement in Pentecostalism, which has has serious credibility issues.

2) Wasilla Bible Church is wrapped up in Third Wave: false.

3) Jews for Jesus preach that contemporary violence in Israel is specifically God's judgment for Jews rejecting Jesus: false.

4) Palin believes that the natural gas pipeline and the Iraq war are God's will: false. That was rather ordinary petitionary prayer language about "God's will" being done in a particular situation.

Let none of this fact-checking dissuade Democrat partisans. Please keep up the attacks. And by all means, when trying to gauge the opinions of suburban American women on Palin, venture no further than Marin, Westchester, and Snohomish Counties for your polling, and when trying to learn about how churchgoers think of her, stick mostly to Episcopal gatherings. I want you to have an accurate picture.

Shhhhh. Don't tell them.

[ploto]

That was rather ordinary petitionary prayer language about "God's will" being done in a particular situation.

If she had said- "Let God's will be done with regards to this pipeline" I would have no problem with that at all, but that is not what she said. She was giving a lecture and said "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built." That is not a prayer. That is a stand on an issue and equating it to God's will.

[101A]

"I think God's will has to be donein unifying people and companies to get that gas pipeline built. So Pray for that..."

Why did you leave that part of the prayer out? Kind of makes ES's point, doesn't it?

Who said:


“Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right”



Because every prayer that I've seen people get up in arms about was about as divisive as that one.

[Supergirl]

Have you ever actually read the bible?

MUCH of it is historically accurate; not fiction.

Jesus was an actual person, who actually walked, talked and had followers. The New Testament is a record of his actions and life. It is, as much as anything else, a biography.

The New Testament is about as historically accurate as the Old Testament. Both are based LOOSELY on actual events in history, but both are widely known by historians to be more historically relevant in terms of what they tell us about the people who wrote them down, and how those people thought. The NT is mostly a collection of what Jesus' followers thought and believed and wanted people to think about Jesus. The OT is basically mythologies and interpretations about events that actually happened - there was, in fact, a great flood, there was, in fact an exodus of the Hebrew people, but the telling of the stories is fictionalized. Just like in the NT. There was, in fact, a Jesus, but the telling about him is fictionalized.

[Supergirl]

Good.

In practice, if not substance, you agree with Governor Palin. Can she expect your vote?

Absolutely not. It has been pretty clear documented that Palin has tried to ban books, abuse her authority when in office, make questionable decisions regarding her own safety and family's rights to privacy (not the least of which includes using them to save her own political ass), and I am pretty frightened of what types of Supreme Court justices she'd appoint if McSame dropped dead and she got the chance.

If you believe in freedom of choice -- when it comes to sex, religion, or anything else -- DO NOT VOTE FOR MCSAME AND WACKJOB.

[boutons_]

"New Testament"

But the NT is not where the Bible-thumpers make their money.

The $$ are in their fearing and smearing from the OT.

[TheMadHatter]

The New Testament is about as historically accurate as the Old Testament. Both are based LOOSELY on actual events in history, but both are widely known by historians to be more historically relevant in terms of what they tell us about the people who wrote them down, and how those people thought. The NT is mostly a collection of what Jesus' followers thought and believed and wanted people to think about Jesus. The OT is basically mythologies and interpretations about events that actually happened - there was, in fact, a great flood, there was, in fact an exodus of the Hebrew people, but the telling of the stories is fictionalized. Just like in the NT. There was, in fact, a Jesus, but the telling about him is fictionalized.

[smeagol]

There was, in fact, a Jesus, but the telling about him is fictionalized.

Why is this a fact?

[ploto]

Palin herself said that "we" need to make sure that what we are doing is God's will- that the task is from God- that it is God's will that we are sending people off to fight. We need to make sure it is in God's plan that we are doing this. AGREE. We want to follow God's will in this. We should pray that we are following God's will in this. RIGHT.

She supports the war. She would not support the war if she believed it was against God's will. That is the issue. Public policy decisions should not be made based upon whether or not someone believes something is God's will. I can find plenty of people who think it is not God's will. Terrorists think they are doing God's will, too. That just is not how public policy is made in this country. People have the right to be concerned if a person in power is going to make decisions in that manner.

It also points to an issue that bugs me in general. It is wonderful to pray to follow God's will, but He gave us brains, too. Some people pawn off all the responsibility by saying- I prayed for God's will- but use no sense or action of their own. God gave us free choice and minds to use. You can not just justify anything and everything by saying you prayed for God's will. I have seen people do reckless, careless things for which they did not hold themselves at all personally accountable by saying they prayed it was God's will-- and I guess He did not stop them! That is part of why it bugs me in a public policy discussion. Our government is not intended to be run by pawning all the tough choice off on God, so to speak.

I want to hear intellectual reasons for policy. Do not tell me to pray for God's will- tell me why or why not YOU are doing this- or taking this stand. Tell me why it benefits the country and its citizens to do what you are proposing. You are not a religious leader. You are a mayor, or governor, or senator. Discuss issues in the context of government, not religion.

[101A]

Absolutely not. It has been pretty clear documented that Palin has tried to ban books, abuse her authority when in office, make questionable decisions regarding her own safety and family's rights to privacy (not the least of which includes using them to save her own political ass), and I am pretty frightened of what types of Supreme Court justices she'd appoint if McSame dropped dead and she got the chance.


Boy you have drunk the kool-aid, haven't you. You might want to freshen up your bookmarks; Daily Kos isn't known to be the most reputable source. All of what you mentioned has been discredited - by Newsweek of all publications. Catch up.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Why is this a fact?

For the same reasons it is fact that there was a George Washington.

[101A]

Palin herself said that "we" need to make sure that what we are doing is God's will- that the task is from God- that it is God's will that we are sending people off to fight. We need to make sure it is in God's plan that we are doing this. AGREE. We want to follow God's will in this. We should pray that we are following God's will in this. RIGHT.

She supports the war. She would not support the war if she believed it was against God's will. That is the issue. Public policy decisions should not be made based upon whether or not someone believes something is God's will. I can find plenty of people who think it is not God's will. Terrorists think they are doing God's will, too. That just is not how public policy is made in this country. People have the right to be concerned if a person in power is going to make decisions in that manner.

It also points to an issue that bugs me in general. It is wonderful to pray to follow God's will, but He gave us brains, too. Some people pawn off all the responsibility by saying- I prayed for God's will- but use no sense or action of their own. God gave us free choice and minds to use. You can not just justify anything and everything by saying you prayed for God's will. I have seen people do reckless, careless things for which they did not hold themselves at all personally accountable by saying they prayed it was God's will-- and I guess He did not stop them! That is part of why it bugs me in a public policy discussion. Our government is not intended to be run by pawning all the tough choice off on God, so to speak.

I want to hear intellectual reasons for policy. Do not tell me to pray for God's will- tell me why or why not YOU are doing this- or taking this stand. Tell me why it benefits the country and its citizens to do what you are proposing. You are not a religious leader. You are a mayor, or governor, or senator. Discuss issues in the context of government, not religion.

Did it ever occur to you that she (and many Christians), make decisions, and then pray to God that they are making the right decisions, and for him to help her (them) make those decisions? Just because you have a video of a prayer, and nothing else doesn't mean she didn't have any thoughts prior to that moment in time caught on video.

Damn, how freaking bigoted you lot are - and I KNOW you are a Christian Woman, you have mentioned it. As true as that may be, you must not attend a main-line, Protestant church regularly in this country, because prayers such as these that everybody keeps citing are COMMONPLACE and ones such as them are muttered every week, multiple tiimes, in thousands of churches around this country! Dare I say, they are also asked before meals and bedtimes, as well!!!

[101A]

The NT is mostly a collection of what Jesus' followers thought and believed and wanted people to think about Jesus.

BTW. Link (regarding that, and the "fact" that the NT is "loosely based on historical events".

[ploto]

Did it ever occur to you that she (and many Christians), make decisions, and then pray to God that they are making the right decisions, and for him to help her (them) make those decisions?

Really, "they" do that.

Like a great Christian man who walked out on his family and justified it because he prayed that he was doing the right thing. You mean- like that?

[101A]

Really, "they" do that.

Like a great Christian man who walked out on his family and justified it because he prayed that he was doing the right thing. You mean- like that?

I guess.

I don't know what you are talking about, and a man prayed that, then I guess he was praying he did the right thing.

I'm sorry, did I ever claim every person who prayed was righteous? If I did, I didn't mean to.

[smeagol]

For the same reasons it is fact that there was a George Washington.

Actually, it is nothing like that.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Actually, it is nothing like that.

Sure it's not.

[smeagol]

Sure it's not.

Care to explain yourself?

[Wild Cobra]

How come the bible leaves such holes in their Jesus account? Was he a stoner or a thug or something in his teenage years?

There are several possibilities. Being intelligent includes knowing we don't know all the answers. If I recall, the Bible says he left his home area and traveled for more teachings. It is thought he went to the Far East. Then there's the possibility of records being destroyed that did account for much of his life. Impossible to say and speculation is fruitless.

It should be noted that Jesus is mentioned in other cultural historical works.

It should be noted also, when talking about the Creation, the Sumerian text is more precise about it, and even more specific about the creation of mankind. It does not contradict the Torah, but it does contradict the traditional thought from the English interpretation. We get an age from Sumerian text than mankind, as we are today, is about 60,000 years old. Not 6,000. The 6,000 number is entirely derived from the generations of Adam. Adam was the first man named by name from Mankind. Two different words in the Torah (mankind and Adam) but both translated as Adam!

[ThriveForFive]

everybody read this book.
come back in a week and ramble on.
http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/0842345523

[jochhejaam]

Aren't you the person who called me a piece of filth?

I was referring to your article, but if you want to characterize in another light, I’m not going to try to talk you out of it.




Now you are lecturing me-- and even moreso JUDGING me and my relationship with God. That is the epitomy of self-righteousness for you to think that it is your job to judge me and whether or not I am a person of faith.You are the one using YOUR criteria to judge who belongs and who does not.
:lol I pointed out that your smug little statement that; "I was in church today, how about you" paralleled the religiosity of the Pharisees. I couldn't care less if you mischaracterize that as being judgemental. The shoe fit you nicely, don't you agree? You confuse facts with judgement, that's on you.





I posted what I did to respond to the person who called me ANTI-GOD and ANTI-RELIGIOUS to show that I am neither.
And I posted on your comment that you were "anti-religious" and then went religious on him with your "I was in church today, how about you".

I guess we're now clear on who was posting what about which comments. (I already was clear, I combined the two for your benefit).






This is a political discussion and I have the duty to voice my opinions of the POLICY of a person running for office- POLICY with which I do not agree. I do not agree with claiming that it is God's will that people unite to build a pipeline in Alaska. I find that offensive as a person of faith and I have a right to speak out against it.
Duty? As if your opinions are the facts that set the record straight? That's mighty pompous of you plots. And no one attempted to infringe on your right to "speak out", you certainly have the right to defend yourself when you're called out <and I stand by what I said, verbatim>.






You are just mad because you are Republican and it has nothing really to do with faith at all.
I am neither mad nor am I registered as a Rep. From the tenor of your reply, your the one filled with outrage (it's good to let off steam), I merely took exception to your vicious, and unfair attack on a Christian woman for political expediency's sake.





As for your analogy- it is just plain stupid. A person in an art gallery does not particpate, they only spectate. At church I am a participant in the faith life of my community.
Bragging about how you "were in church today" while purporting to be "anti-religious" doesn't get a free pass, and it was a fine analogy as you didn't mention anything in your statement about being a "participant".

Additionally, being a participant in church is hardly a litmus test for piety.


<Preparing for another disassociated, rambling lecture>

[efrem1]

Evolution has nothing to do with the ORIGINS OF MAN, that's abiogenesis you fucking dumbshit Christian retards. The Christian right is collectively the DUMBEST group of individuals in America.

Thank you for the complement. I will give your regards to Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia...


....oh before I go, did you answer my question on all actions of being of equal moral value? After all, I am such a dummy. :)

[TheMadHatter]

Dinosaurs once roamed the Earth.

[Supergirl]

Thank you for the complement. I will give your regards to Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia...


....oh before I go, did you answer my question on all actions of being of equal moral value? After all, I am such a dummy. :)

And they can spell so well, too. LOL.

[TheMadHatter]

Everytime I see efrem1 post I think of that Family Guy episode with "Efrem the retarded rabbit"

[efrem1]

Everytime I see efrem1 post I think of that Family Guy episode with "Efrem the retarded rabbit"


Let me introduce you to my fellow "dummies."

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/IndianChristiansUnderAttack.htm

[Phenomanul]

BTW Evolution and adaptation are not the same things...

Evolution at its core suggests that speciation is all driven by natural selection.

Extrapolated to define the origins of DNA or life however, evolution is useless and non-scientific; bordering on blind faith.