Should Udoka start?

[xtremesteven33]

OK, i know this wont go over well with some people but for those who want to keep an open mind, who think that this could benefit the spurs more?

He will sub for Bowen while Bruce comes off the bench. Udoka will bring speed, slightly better offense, better athletecism and youth. I know Bowen has done so much for us and deserves to be in the starting lineup but it seems as though much of our scoring droughts are due to Bowen being incapable of much offensive power.

Who thinks Udoka should be given a shot as a starting SF or SG?

PG-Parker
SG-Finley/Mason
SF-Udoka
PF-Duncan
C-Thomas

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Not me.

Bowen is out there to guard the best player on the opposing team. The opposing best player doesn't come off the bench.

[manufor3]

no

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

No, I prefer the idea of Udoka off the bench. He can get called in to spell Bowen, or in a case where an unexpected guy gets a hot hand Pop can call his number early and play he and Bruce together without giving a team's #1 option a chance to get going.

The idea might be worth revisiting when Manu returns, but any scenario that starts Bowen on the bench is not the best idea for the Spurs.

[JamStone]

Udoka will bring speed, slightly better offense, better athletecism and youth.

Udoka has speed? I'm not being sarcastic. That's an honest question? I never thought of him as a "speedy" guy, but I haven't followed him enough to know if that's a legit description of him.

I think Bowen is probably just as athletic, maybe sightly less.

And, as for "youth," Udoka is 31 years old. In NBA years, that's far from youthful.

[xtremesteven33]

Bowen is a specialist. Bring him out when there is a NEED. i feel udoka can help the team offensively and bring a whole lot more hustle.

Other teams dont have a "defensive stopper" in the starting lineup and still play good defense.


(Celtics for example)

[xtremesteven33]

Udoka has speed? I'm not being sarcastic. That's an honest question?



Compared to Bowen i believe he can bring more speed and hustle.

[ducks]

Not me.

Bowen is out there to guard the best player on the opposing team. The opposing best player doesn't come off the bench.

manu is not the spurs best player:frying::stirpot:

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Bowen is a specialist. Bring him out when there is a NEED. i feel udoka can help the team offensively and bring a whole lot more hustle.
It's called the best player on the other team. It's no guarantee that Udoka can guard the best opposing player as good as Bruce. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Other teams dont have a "defensive stopper" in the starting lineup and still play good defense.


(Celtics for example)
When we acquire Paul Pierce, then I'll agree it's time to put Bowen on the bench.

[temujin]

Udoka in for the 2 position.

[I. Hustle]

bring a whole lot more hustle.





bring more speed and hustle.

LEAVE ME OUT OF THIS!

[xtremesteven33]

It's called the best player on the other team. It's no guarantee that Udoka can guard the best opposing player as good as Bruce. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

When we acquire Paul Pierce, then I'll agree it's time to put Bowen on the bench.



I dont expect Udoka to be the defensive stallworth that Bowen is but i think if we can play better TEAM defense and not rely on Bowen to get most of the individual stops then we could sacrifice bowen for slightly better offense in Udoka.


Maybe they should give it a shot especially with Manu out for the first 2-3 months.

Our offense is going to Hurt badly

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I dont expect Udoka to be the defensive stallworth that Bowen is but i think if we can play better TEAM defense and not rely on Bowen to get most of the individual stops then we could sacrifice bowen for slightly better offense in Udoka.


Maybe they should give it a shot especially with Manu out for the first 2-3 months.

Our offense is going to Hurt badly

I'd rather give it to Mason over Finley. Younger, proven scorer last year, only can get better with the help of Tony and Tim. Then you still have Bowen.

[Kori Ellis]

I think Bowen is faster right now at his age than Udoka. Udoka is pretty slow. His offense is about as limited as Bowen's.

I think the Spurs need to eventually move someone into Bruce's spot in the lineup; I just don't think Udoka is it.

[xtremesteven33]

I'd rather give it to Mason over Finley. Younger, proven scorer last year, only can get better with the help of Tony and Tim. Then you still have Bowen.



yea than you would have

Udoka
Vaughn
Finley
Thomas

coming off the bench....not exactly showtime lakers....

at least with Finley in the lineup with TD and TP you have Mason to run motion offense

[timvp]

it seems as though much of our scoring droughts are due to Bowen being incapable of much offensive power.Not sure how Bowen can be blamed when he's been a constant in the starting lineup for years and his offensive productivity has been basically the same.

The true culprit last year was there simply weren't enough scorers outside of the Big Three. A rundown Michael Finley was the team's fourth best scorer.


Udoka will bring speed, slightly better offense, better athletecism and youth. Udoka is slow, unathletic and deceptively old. What Udoka has to offer is strength, toughness and a willingness to shoot.

From what we saw in the playoffs, Udoka isn't a very similar player to Bowen at all. He's both too short and too slow to be a lockdown defender against perimeter players. He's useful against bulky players who try to post up or use their strength but not the pure perimeter players.

I wish the Spurs would bring in Quinton Ross. He's much more like Bowen and could probably be had for a minimum contract.

Udoka has a place on this team next year as a bench player who could hopefully evolve into a Mario Elie type where he brings a hard ass mentality and three-point shooting. But the only way I see him as a future starting small forward on this team is if Roger Mason, Jr. or someone else can start at shooting guard and show an ability to defend top flight perimeter players.

[Sissiborgo]

No....Then we are loosing the best defender in the league and we must get better on defense.....:toast

[z0sa]

Does no one see just what Bruce does for us? This guy is more important than Timmy to our current defense.

[z0sa]

Bruce Bowen = Real 2007 Finals MVP

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

yea than you would have

Udoka
Vaughn
Finley
Thomas

coming off the bench....not exactly showtime lakers....

at least with Finley in the lineup with TD and TP you have Mason to run motion offense

You just said we need to add a scoring punch to the starting lineup, yet you turn down the idea of Mason over Finley?

[urunobili]

Udoka made both Walton and Farmar look like HOF'ers when both blocked him in the Lakers series... he is definitively slow for the NBA...

[rj215]

Udoka has been a real find for us and he'll continue to get better but I think he needs another season under the offensive system and under Bowen's defensive mentoring to start.

[SenorSpur]

I think Bowen is faster right now at his age than Udoka. Udoka is pretty slow. His offense is about as limited as Bowen's.

I think the Spurs need to eventually move someone into Bruce's spot in the lineup; I just don't think Udoka is it.

All the more reason the Spurs should be looking and continously searching for swingmen, as opposed to PGs.

[mrspurs]

You cant bring the best defensive player on your roster off the bench. And the day Udoka replaces Bruce is the day we are lottery bound. I like Udoka he's tough, not fast. Other then TP, Bruce is the best player on the roster night in and night out. Ask Timmy who sets the tone........

[SenorSpur]

yea than you would have

Udoka
Vaughn
Finley
Thomas

coming off the bench....not exactly showtime lakers....

at least with Finley in the lineup with TD and TP you have Mason to run motion offense

If you believe Pop will start Udoka over Finley, you don't know Pop at all. As has alread been stated, Bowen's true value is to shut down the opposition's best perimeter player. His scoring is gravy. At this point, Udoka is not, nor will likely never be, the accomplished defender Bowen is.

[DPG21920]

I think Bowen is faster right now at his age than Udoka. Udoka is pretty slow. His offense is about as limited as Bowen's.

I think the Spurs need to eventually move someone into Bruce's spot in the lineup; I just don't think Udoka is it.


If you believe Pop will start Udoka over Finley, you don't know Pop at all. As has alread been stated, Bowen's true value is to shut down the opposition's best perimeter player. His scoring is gravy. At this point, Udoka is not, nor will likely never be, the accomplished defender Bowen is.


Well that sucks, because I thought he was supposed to be the one who takes over for Bowen. Isn't that what was said when the Spurs signed him?


http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/MYSA100807_BKN_Spurs_Udoka_en_2f9ccf9_html.html
Shortly after signing the first multiyear contract of his professional career, new Spurs forward Ime Udoka celebrated by doing something he had never done before.

He went shopping for a house — to buy, not rent.

"I looked through almost every neighborhood in San Antonio," Udoka said, "but I found my spot."

In San Antonio, Udoka has indeed discovered a place to put down roots. And it only took him seven years, 13 job changes and trips to four countries to find it.

In August, the Spurs lured Udoka from Portland with a guaranteed two-year deal worth slightly more than $2 million, instantly setting him up with more job security than he has ever known.

A 6-foot-6 defensive stopper with a better-than-average 3-point touch, Udoka has been billed as the heir apparent to Bruce Bowen in San Antonio. (Although Udoka might have to wait a little longer to fill that role after Bowen signed a two-year contract extension Sunday).

Like Bowen in his pre-Spurs days, Udoka's nomadic lifestyle to this point has been better suited for pup tent ownership than home ownership.

Undrafted out of Portland State in 2000, Udoka's basketball passport has been stamped in such exotic locales as Charleston, S.C., Glen Falls, N.Y., and Fort Worth. In between, Udoka crammed onto his résumé overseas stops in Spain, France and Lithuania.

He might be the only player in history to spend parts of the same season playing in Fargo, N.D., and Argentina, a rare double Udoka pulled off in his first season out of college.

The longest amount of time Udoka, 30, has spent in one place were two seasons with the North Charleston Lowgators of the NBDL from 2002 to 2004. His shortest stint was the 10 days he spent with the Los Angeles Lakers in 2004, his first NBA call-up, keeping a spot warm for a hobbled Kobe Bryant.

"Kobe came back quicker than he was supposed to," Udoka said of his brief stay with the Lakers.

After a career of living out of suitcases, and at the fickle whim of the 10-day contract, Udoka earned his big break last season.

The final player added to Portland's 15-man roster last summer, Udoka — who to that point had played in just 12 NBA games with the Lakers and New York Knicks — made the Trail Blazers out of training camp.

He went on to start every game for which he was healthy, 75 in all. He averaged 8.4 points per game and ranked among the league's top 20 most accurate 3-point shooters at 40.6 percent.

Udoka's calling card always has been his defense. Less than a week into his first Spurs camp, he already is drawing raves from Bowen, one of the best defenders in the league.

"He's a guy you want on your team," Bowen says, "because you can go to war with him."

Tough and tenacious, Udoka approaches the game with the hungry abandon of a man playing for his next meal. For most of his career, that's exactly what he was doing.

In his mind, Udoka still isn't far removed from the long, sleepless bus rides and the dingy budget motels of basketball's bush leagues. He will never forget that not-so-good life, even after the Spurs made him a guaranteed millionaire.

"Obviously, it takes the stress off," Udoka said. "But I'm not going to change the things I do on the court. I'm going to continue to work hard the same way."

Udoka would be wise to retain the fighting spirit that made him an NBA player to begin with.

Though his contract with the Spurs is guaranteed, playing time is not. The Spurs returned all 12 players from last year's NBA championship team, making meaningful minutes difficult to come by for any newcomer.

At least early on, there's a chance this former starter in Portland could find himself struggling to just get off the Spurs' bench.

"All things being equal, if everybody stays healthy, one would say it's going to be tough for him to find minutes this season," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "Unless he beats somebody out."

Never one to shy away from a test, Udoka is looking forward to that challenge.

In the meantime, he will busy himself with the task of becoming a proud homeowner for the first time. He has already closed on a new home in San Antonio, and plans move out of his current digs at the Omni Hotel next month.

After a career built by perpetually moving on, Udoka can't wait to finally move in.

"I definitely hope to be here for a long time," he said.

[timvp]

Isn't that what was said when the Spurs signed him?Thing change in 14 months or however long it's been.

[SenorSpur]

That's what I thought too. I would have loved for Udoka to be that understudy, but he doesn't appear to have enough length or lateral quickness to fit the bill. He's still is a gritty, above average defender, whose strong suit is his physical strength and tough-mindedness. Thhe Spurs still need to target another long, swingman to fill that Bowen's shoes - preferably someone who is on the south side of 30.

[timvp]

That's what I thought too. I would have loved for Udoka to be that understudy, but he doesn't appear to have enough length or lateral quickness to fit the bill. He's still is a gritty, above average defender, whose strong suit is his physical strength and tough-mindedness. Thhe Spurs still need to target another long, swingman to fill that Bowen's shoes - preferably someone who is on the south side.

Fixed.

:hat

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Udoka will prove to be another wasted roster spot this season. On the bright side, if we end up facing a bonzi wells team in the postseason, at least we'll have someone to go against him for 7 minutes a game.

[DPG21920]

Thing change in 14 months or however long it's been.

Evidently.

So Udoka goes from being the heir of Bowen to not being able to cut it. Hill goes from being someone who can come in and help out right away, to not even being signed for whatever reason. Bonner was supposed to fill in for Horry/Scola but can not get off the bench. So you are trying to tell me that a potential 20% of our team has "changed" and is unable to do the jobs they were brought into do? If you want to include Finley in there (because most people do not like that signing either) it would be even worse.

Maybe many of these F.O. criticisms are valid. If the best people can do is say things change, then maybe the Spurs are in a lot more trouble than I thought.

[Slippy]

Bowen should remain a starter. Udoka showed he got a long way to go in reaching Bowen's lofty standards on D. For quickness of feet and hands Bowen is much more agile. For using smarts Udoka is lacking bigtime. On offense they give the same, although i feel more confident in Bowen shooting the corner 3.

In small ball situations (which we saw lot of last season) guarding against bigger, bulkier SF's UDoka got out-bodied in the post . Would rather see Bowen or even FInley get the job. Not sure what the answer is because Spurs don't have a Horry replacement so it's always a match-up nightmare.

[ss1986v2]

Well that sucks, because I thought he was supposed to be the one who takes over for Bowen. Isn't that what was said when the Spurs signed him?


http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/MYSA100807_BKN_Spurs_Udoka_en_2f9ccf9_html.html

did you happen to catch who wrote that article? yeah...

udoka was never going to be a viable replacement for bowen. at best, he was going to be a stop gap to help ease the loss from bowens inevitable decline/retirement. when we signed him, he was already old, had a bum knee, and wasnt near the athlete the bowen was or is. hes good enough to be a vet rotation player, but thats it. and thats all he ever was.

[DPG21920]

did you happen to catch who wrote that article? yeah...

udoka was never going to be a viable replacement for bowen. at best, he was going to be a stop gap to help ease the loss from bowens inevitable decline/retirement. when we signed him, he was already old, had a bum knee, and wasnt near the athlete the bowen was or is. hes good enough to be a vet rotation player, but thats it. and thats all he ever was.

So then who have the Spurs signed that will be more than a stop gap to take over?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73697

[DPG21920]

Everyone (including those who think differently now) thought Udoka was going to be Bowen's replacement. If he can not cut it, that leaves the Spurs sorely lacking at the 3 spot this year. Not to mention the two spot while Gino is out. Not to mention the one spot because Hill is not signed as of yet and we only have Vaughn.

I was never one to buy into people's massive complaints about the F.O., but when you lay it out, there is some merit.

[Spurtacus]

No. Bowen stays in the starting lineup. Still need to find a younger clone though!

[DPG21920]

Or just add more depth. Bowen should definitely start, however.

[pad300]

I can certainly see Udoka starting. Just start him alongside Bowen. Last year's starting line-up was :
Oberto, Duncan, Bowen, Finley, Parker

In our offensive and defensive schemes, the wings (SG & SF) are pretty interchangeable. Bowen moves to the SG, which is a more natural position for him anyway (he's a bit skinny as a 3), and Udoka take Finley's spot:
????, Duncan, Udoka, Bowen, Parker

While the big beside Duncan is a question mark, depending on training camp, it might be Oberto, Kurt, Mahinmi, or even Bonner...
Udoka can fill Finley's boots. He's a better defender than last years Finley, and shot better last year - TS% Finley (.519), Udoka (.528). Udoka is also a significantly stronger rebounder TRB% Finley (6.8), Udoka (10.2). Udoka had more TO's last year, but hopefully that will improve with familiarity with the system (ie. knowing when to expect the ball, and where to pass it too), and his rebounding and better defense ought to make up for it anyways.

[angelbelow]

that might not be a bad idea. bruce is getting up there with age anyway.. i would also be fine with starting bowen and limiting his minutes.

[ss1986v2]

So then who have the Spurs signed that will be more than a stop gap to take over?

no one. and thats been the bigger issue in my mind than the search for a back-up pg. parker is 26 years old, and is going to be seeing 32-35 mpg during the regular season, and 38-40 mpg come postseason. bowen is 37, and is probably not going to be able to give you much more than 30 mpg, and thats only if he continues to hover around his current ability.

all that with no other wing replacements in the pipeline (i put mason in a similar boat as i do udoka: hes a competent role player, with a bit more upside, but still probably just a stop gap to ease the losses of our aging wing core). neither are our future IMO, but both are our present, which in the end isnt the worst thing in the world, as far as the here and now is concerned.

ive said it before, but i think the spurs are going to have to get a good bit worse before we get a good bit better. which, again, isnt all bad, because we arent half bad now.

[DPG21920]

Thats all well and good. Everyone knows that with a healthy Duncan, Parker, Ginobili and Bowen that they will be in contention. The problem is, many of these players are being signed with the mindset of being replacements (Ime, Bonner) or solid rotational players (Ian, Hill) and now many believe they are not even going to be that.

As a front office, your job is not to say, ok, we have Tim, Tony and Manu so lets just fill in with stop gaps. You have to have a balance between role players, youthful players and players for the future. You address that through the draft and free agency. You look at what you are willing to spend versus your cap situation versus who is available that: a) fits your needs and b) is in your price range.

The fact that it was widely thought that Udoka was to replace Bowen, Bonner was to replace Horry and Hill/Ian/Splitter were to be the future and role players has led me to believe that something is a little off in the process as of late. The Spurs will be competitive still, but the odds are stacked against them this year because of some of the moves. Maybe this will be just a one year glitch and some mistakes will be taken care of in the next year or so.

IMO, the Spurs still need a back up point guard desperately (although I think Vaughn does ok), it is just a depth thing. The 2 spot is good once Gino is healthy (for now), the 3 spot I think is the biggest problem (has been) and evidently has not been addressed. Our big situation is serviceable and has a future if Ian shows some progress and Tiago comes over in a year or two.

It is still too early to make an assessment on this season, but some moves have piqued my interest.

[DPG21920]

Just to clarify though, I am a firm believer that the Spurs front office has "the big picture" in mind. I do not think they evaluate individual moves; they see all moves as part of one moving plan. I think they know what they are doing and it will all play out as the years unfold. I am sure they have targets and some things go wrong so they have to adapt the best they can. But that does not mean they do not make mistakes along the way...

[timtonymanu]

nah as much as i love having udoka on the spurs, bowen is a true starter.

[Tully365]

I've never heard anyone in the FO of the Spurs say that Udoka was a replacement for Bowen. That's just sportswriters speculating and pretending that they know what's in the minds of Pop & RC-- they don't.
He was an unbelievable bargain, and a smart signing as a role playing bench guy.

[DPG21920]

Many times sports writers, veteran posters on here and members of the team have said Udoka was the replacement.

[ss1986v2]

Thats all well and good. Everyone knows that with a healthy Duncan, Parker, Ginobili and Bowen that they will be in contention. The problem is, many of these players are being signed with the mindset of being replacements (Ime, Bonner) or solid rotational players (Ian, Hill) and now many believe they are not even going to be that.

As a front office, your job is not to say, ok, we have Tim, Tony and Manu so lets just fill in with stop gaps. You have to have a balance between role players, youthful players and players for the future. You address that through the draft and free agency. You look at what you are willing to spend versus your cap situation versus who is available that: a) fits your needs and b) is in your price range.

The fact that it was widely thought that Udoka was to replace Bowen, Bonner was to replace Horry and Hill/Ian/Splitter were to be the future...

there are to different ideas to this, involving the key words "thought" and "hoped". many spurs fans "thought" these players were replacement. while others "hoped" they were. and i think you can put those two potential positions to the spurs FO as well. did they think that said players were the replacements, or did they just hope that they could fill those roles?

i can guarantee that they did (and still do) "hope" their decisions pan out. their original and current "thoughts" are much harder to pin down.

[mrspurs]

Evidently.

So Udoka goes from being the heir of Bowen to not being able to cut it. Hill goes from being someone who can come in and help out right away, to not even being signed for whatever reason. Bonner was supposed to fill in for Horry/Scola but can not get off the bench. So you are trying to tell me that a potential 20% of our team has "changed" and is unable to do the jobs they were brought into do? If you want to include Finley in there (because most people do not like that signing either) it would be even worse.

Maybe many of these F.O. criticisms are valid. If the best people can do is say things change, then maybe the Spurs are in a lot more trouble than I thought.

Oh make no mistake, the FO has had it's head up something somewhere.

[024]

i like udoka. he's not going to be the next bruce bowen but he'll definitely be a good backup SF. interestingly enough, udoka's history is a lot like bowen's. being undrafted, bouncing around the league going from team to team, playing limited minutes. he'll get more minutes but i doubt he will become a starter.

[Sissiborgo]

Bowen is the starter and should be udoka will be there when Bowen is to old...It's simple..:toast Bruce Bowen is the best defender in the league...

[Bruno]

Bowen is a damn great player. Even at 37, he is by far the better Spurs outside the big 3.

When Bruce will lost a significant step and/or retire, it will be a hard time for Spurs. Nobody will be the next Bruce Bowen because whoever Spurs signs or draft, he will be a worse defender than Bowen by a significant margin. The only way Spurs could survive to the loss of Bowen is to sign a very good two way player. A defensive specialist won't be enough to fill Bruce's shoes.

[Steve-O-Matic]

I would start Udoka over Bowen, in fact I said that during the 2nd half of last season. Bowen's defensive skills are still very good, but they have clearly begun to decline and that trend is not suddenly going to revert in the other direction. But he is a total liability in every other phase of the game other than the occasional spot-up 3. By and large, the Spurs are playing 4-on-5 on offense when Bowen is in the game, and that is one of key factors in the Spurs becoming an offensively-challenged team, particularly when opponents go on their nightly second-half "run." Udoka proved to be a FAR more productive player/scorer on offense than Bowen, never mind on the boards and at the FT line, and while he's not quite in Bowen's class as a man-on-man defender, he's not too shabby in his own right, and still brings a vastly more complete game to the table than Bowen. At this point in his career, Bowen is best served being brought off the bench in situational defensive roles, particulary when the Spurs need to "put out a fire" when an opposing shooter/slasher is getting a hot hand. That will allow them to maximize his assets (and, at age 37, his energy), while providing Udoka the minutes to further refine his game and give the Spurs a better balance on both ends of the floor. Additionally, history has shown that most Spurs have made their biggest strides iin production and effectiveness in Year 2 in the system, and that's where Udoka is in 2008-09.

[Drom John]

I don't care who starts, but ...
I'd like shorter stints, maybe alternating ever four minutes, tweaked in the fourth quarter in tight games so that the most successful of the two (most likely Bowen) is clamped onto the opponent's offensive star.

Why?
To wear out the opponent's offensive star.

[xtremesteven33]

I would start Udoka over Bowen, in fact I said that during the 2nd half of last season. Bowen's defensive skills are still very good, but they have clearly begun to decline and that trend is not suddenly going to revert in the other direction. But he is a total liability in every other phase of the game other than the occasional spot-up 3. By and large, the Spurs are playing 4-on-5 on offense when Bowen is in the game, and that is one of key factors in the Spurs becoming an offensively-challenged team, particularly when opponents go on their nightly second-half "run." Udoka proved to be a FAR more productive player/scorer on offense than Bowen, never mind on the boards and at the FT line, and while he's not quite in Bowen's class as a man-on-man defender, he's not too shabby in his own right, and still brings a vastly more complete game to the table than Bowen. At this point in his career, Bowen is best served being brought off the bench in situational defensive roles, particulary when the Spurs need to "put out a fire" when an opposing shooter/slasher is getting a hot hand. That will allow them to maximize his assets (and, at age 37, his energy), while providing Udoka the minutes to further refine his game and give the Spurs a better balance on both ends of the floor. Additionally, history has shown that most Spurs have made their biggest strides iin production and effectiveness in Year 2 in the system, and that's where Udoka is in 2008-09.



you just put all the things i wanted to say and point out perfectly in this post.....thank you