Just issues

[101A]

No debating in this thread.

Seems some are tired of the endless stream of bile that is being thrown to and fro as the election heats up. So in deference to those more sensitive among us; this thread is dedicated to JUST ISSUES.

State an ISSUE you agree or disagree with a candidate on.

I disagree with Senator Obama that the tax rate should be raised for Americans with the highest salaries. Obama wants the marginal rate raised well beyond 50%. I think that is too high, is bad for the economy and, frankly, is "unAmerican".

[101A]

I disagree with Senator McCain that there should be substantial NEW tax cuts. Our budget deficit, and national debt are destabilizing ours, and the World's economies. AFTER our government has shown some restraint, and has its budget house in order, then, and only then, should tax cuts be discussed.

[101A]

I disagree with Senator Obama that we should start any new, large government entitlement programs. As with McCain's substantial tax cuts, we can't afford those right now; get current spending in check before proposing massive new spending.

[101A]

I disagree with both candidates on the use of the death penalty. Life in prison, without the possibility of parole provides the same benefits to the society, while costing fewer dollars, and eliminating the chance of "getting it wrong - and killing an innocent person".

[Viva Las Espuelas]

harumph. a lot of trimming needs to be done starting with rangel.

[Mr. Body]

I disagree with both candidates on the use of the death penalty. Life in prison, without the possibility of parole provides the same benefits to the society, while costing fewer dollars, and eliminating the chance of "getting it wrong - and killing an innocent person".

That's the first sensible thing I've ever seen you write. I need to reconsider life as I know it.

[JoeChalupa]

I disagree with McCain that we should make the Bush tax cuts permanent without a plan to reduce the deficit.

[JoeChalupa]

I disagree with McCain's position on Roe vs Wade.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think McCain has any grasp on the economy. The shift-taxes-downward style simply does not work. His advisors, like Phil Gramm, scare me.

Palin certainly has no grasp on economics.

[JoeChalupa]

I disagree with McCain's support of a Constitutional amendment to define the family as a union between one man and one woman.

[JoeChalupa]

I"m against McCain's opposition to civil unions that for all intents and purposes confer the same status as traditional marriage.

[Findog]

Democrats aren't the ones that cut taxes and increased spending. 1% of the U.S. population now owns 95% of the nation's wealth, the highest discrepancy since the Great Depression. Rich people can shut the fuck up about their taxes.

It's true that capital is required for investment, and you can't invest money that is in the US govt's coffers. So for that reason, I do not support corporate taxes, they simply pass them along to their customers in the form of higher prices. But for some dude making $500,000 a year and is going to see his personal income taxes go up to pay for things like rebuilding crumbling infrastructure and on things like health care, I got a message for you: SHUT THE FUCK UP. Boo fucking hoo about your tax bracket.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I disagree with McCain's position on Roe vs Wade.mccain has come right out and said he's against it. obamessiah's pay scale restricted him from saying anything against it. so in truth no one knows his stance on roe vs wade. someone saying "My belief is simply that women are in the best position to make that very difficult moral decision." isn't my idea of someone answering a direct question.

[JoeChalupa]

mccain has come right out and said he's against it. obamessiah's pay scale restricted him from saying anything against it. so in truth no one knows his stance on roe vs wade. someone saying "My belief is simply that women are in the best position to make that very difficult moral decision." isn't my idea of someone answering a direct question.

WTF!? Obama is pro-choice and that is clear as rain.

[boutons_]

"My belief is simply that women are in the best position to make that very difficult moral decision."

That's very clearly pro-choice.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

"My belief is simply that women are in the best position to make that very difficult moral decision."

That's very clearly pro-choice.
i see what youre saying but i'm reading that statement as saying "my belief is that women can make that decision for themselves." a parent can give their kid money for something the kid wants to buy that the parent doesn't necessarily want them to buy. hopefully that clears up why i said that we really, or at least i, don't know obamessiah's personal stance on roe vs. wade.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i wonder if mccain or obamessiah will get government and all the environMENTAL groups out of the way so we can get on our way on securing this country's energy be it oil, solar, wind, etc.......

[1369]

Speaking of stances, is there a non-partisan sit that actually shows head to head where Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain stand on certain issues (Taxes/Gun Control/Budget Matters/ETC)?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Speaking of stances, is there a non-partisan sit that actually shows head to head where Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain stand on certain issues (Taxes/Gun Control/Budget Matters/ETC)?
i think theyre all biased. do a search on factcheck.org
i liked the way they picked apart both candidates acceptance speeches.

[JoeChalupa]

Speaking of stances, is there a non-partisan sit that actually shows head to head where Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain stand on certain issues (Taxes/Gun Control/Budget Matters/ETC)?

It depends on your view of non-partisan but here is one. (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/)

[JoeChalupa]

i think theyre all biased. do a search on factcheck.org
i liked the way they picked apart both candidates acceptance speeches.

I concur.

[101A]

Democrats aren't the ones that cut taxes and increased spending. 1% of the U.S. population now owns 95% of the nation's wealth, the highest discrepancy since the Great Depression.

You're WAY (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) off. With beliefs like that, it's no wonder you are where you are politically.

It's not evenly distributed or anything, but 33 is a far cry from 95.


In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%,

[Findog]

You're WAY (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) off. With beliefs like that, it's no wonder you are where you are politically.

It's not evenly distributed or anything, but 33 is a far cry from 95.

You have figures more recently than 2001? You wanna dispute that Bush's policies have widened the gap between rich and poor and shrunk the middle class?

[Findog]

It probably isn't 95%, I pulled that somewhat out of my ass, but there's no disputing that Bush has squeezed the middle class severely and created gross disparities in income that we haven't seen in decades.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You have figures more recently than 2001? You wanna dispute that Bush's policies have widened the gap between rich and poor and shrunk the middle class?how can the gap be widened between the rich and poor without the middle class not growing? do you mean that either the rich or poor have grown or shrunk causing the middle class shrink?

[Moderator]

Don't you all know how to read? Stick to the issues and NO DEBATING!!

[fyatuk]

You have figures more recently than 2001? You wanna dispute that Bush's policies have widened the gap between rich and poor and shrunk the middle class?

Worldwide, about 0.7% of the people own 1/3rd of the world.

Couldn't find current wealth numbers for the US, but according to the census estimates for 07, the top 1% earn 23% of total income in the US.

Wealth gap has been fairly standard in the US in terms of the whole top 10 owns 80%. It's probably a bit higher now, probably something like 85% for the top 10, but that's just a guess.

[Findog]

how can the gap be widened between the rich and poor without the middle class not growing? do you mean that either the rich or poor have grown or shrunk causing the middle class shrink?

Upper Middle Class People have been knocked down to Middle Class in this economy, Middle Class has been knocked down to Working Class, etc. Economic productivity is up in the Bush economy, but the spoils are going to the upper income brackets. How else do you explain CEOs earning astronomically more than their workers? That's always been true to some extent, but under Bush, that process has become more extreme.

[Moderator]

2nd warning.

[johnsmith]

It probably isn't 95%, I pulled that somewhat out of my ass, but there's no disputing that Bush has squeezed the middle class severely and created gross disparities in income that we haven't seen in decades.

I disagree with the fact that a close family member of mine went to Vietnam out of high school, then went on to become an iron worker, and then worked his way up through the ranks of the construction business by working extremely hard, dedicating himself to his job, sacrificing many luxuries we take for granted and eventually became a wealthy vice president of a major American construction company and should now be penalized even further then he already is by the US government in order to flip the bill for people like Findog.

[Gordon Gekko]

The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it. You've got that killer instinct. Stick around pals, I've still got a lot to teach you.

[shelshor]

Question: Has either ticket addressed agricultural or the assorted farm programs is ANY manner whatsoever? If they have, could you plese provide a link. Thanks

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Upper Middle Class People have been knocked down to Middle Class in this economy, Middle Class has been knocked down to Working Class, etc. so how much of a percentage went rich and how many went poor?


explain CEOs earning astronomically more than their workers? isn't that the point of having the CEO title?

[JoeChalupa]

Thread has been hijacked. :lmao

[Anti.Hero]

Democrats aren't the ones that cut taxes and increased spending. 1% of the U.S. population now owns 95% of the nation's wealth, the highest discrepancy since the Great Depression. Rich people can shut the fuck up about their taxes.

It's true that capital is required for investment, and you can't invest money that is in the US govt's coffers. So for that reason, I do not support corporate taxes, they simply pass them along to their customers in the form of higher prices. But for some dude making $500,000 a year and is going to see his personal income taxes go up to pay for things like rebuilding crumbling infrastructure and on things like health care, I got a message for you: SHUT THE FUCK UP. Boo fucking hoo about your tax bracket.

They'll just hide their money, and cut back on riskier investments. No biggie for them. Actually, the shittier times get, the more they will clean up and wait for the grand rebound.

Pretty sure they can stfu happily in comfort while the whiners keep suffering.

[Findog]

I disagree with the fact that a close family member of mine went to Vietnam out of high school, then went on to become an iron worker, and then worked his way up through the ranks of the construction business by working extremely hard, dedicating himself to his job, sacrificing many luxuries we take for granted and eventually became a wealthy vice president of a major American construction company and should now be penalized even further then he already is by the US government in order to flip the bill for people like Findog.

Sorry I just don't have much sympathy for rich people that they're in a higher tax bracket and they won't get enough relief under Obama. I don't want govt handouts or entitlement programs for myself, what I want is sound, fiscal management of the economy. Yes, let's cut taxes and go to war, that is solid policy.

I don't want to "soak" the rich because they provide investment capital. Economic productivity in this country is not a problem, distribution of the wealth is. You don't want to penalize the people with money to invest too much, but at the same time, you don't want regressive taxation either. How is anybody supposed to get ahead and be a Horatio Alger story in this economy? It's insulting to say that the Democrats tax policies are about "penalizing success." You want good roads to drive on, you want good public schools for your children, you want well-staffed hospitals, you want levees in New Orleans to hold up? Then pay your taxes and shut up.

[Findog]

?

isn't that the point of having the CEO title?

How is it a good thing to transfer wealth from the middle class to the already rich? Without a middle class, you don't have a democracy. Economic liberty always precedes political liberty.

[johnsmith]

Sorry I just don't have much sympathy for rich people that they're in a higher tax bracket and they won't get enough relief under Obama. I don't want govt handouts or entitlement programs for myself, what I want is sound, fiscal management of the economy. Yes, let's cut taxes and go to war, that is solid policy.

I don't want to "soak" the rich because they provide investment capital. Economic productivity in this country is not a problem, distribution of the wealth is. You don't want to penalize the people with money to invest too much, but at the same time, you don't want regressive taxation either. How is anybody supposed to get ahead and be a Horatio Alger story in this economy? It's insulting to say that the Democrats tax policies are about "penalizing success." You want good roads to drive on, you want good public schools for your children, you want well-staffed hospitals, you want levees in New Orleans to hold up? Then pay your taxes and shut up.

Then this Bud's for you Mr. Destined to stay lower/middle class his entire life guy.

[Anti.Hero]

economy? It's insulting to say that the Democrats tax policies are about "penalizing success." You want good roads to drive on, you want good public schools for your children, you want well-staffed hospitals, you want levees in New Orleans to hold up? Then pay your taxes and shut up.

Have it, have it, have it, don't care -- that's N.O.'s problem.

Maybe they should quit sending $50 bil to Africa and $1 bil to allies who pick dumbfuck fights, and the pointless war of course.

It's not the money itself, it's the idea that the upper 5%-10% ALREADY pay for this fucking country and the Obama and losers want more more more more. Back at them, STFU and go work, stay out of debt on depreciating assets, and make your own life.

[Findog]

Then this Bud's for you Mr. Destined to stay lower/middle class his entire life guy.

lol, how many people in this country are better off than they were 8 years ago under Bush? My parents are worse off, I'm worse off, most people I know are worse off. Republicans have lost all credibility with me, as has their "just cut taxes on the rich and everybody's boat will rise" ethos.

[smeagol]

I disagree with McCain's position on Roe vs Wade.

Joe:

Off topic, but how can you be a Catholic that believes life begins at inception, and be pro-choice?

[johnsmith]

lol, how many people in this country are better off than they were 8 years ago under Bush? My parents are worse off, I'm worse off, most people I know are worse off. Republicans have lost all credibility with me, as has their "just cut taxes on the rich and everybody's boat will rise" ethos.

I'm much better off then I was 8 years ago.............wanna know the secret?

I work my fucking ass off.

[johnsmith]

Come to think of it, everyone in my family is also better off.................guess how they did it?


They worked their asses off.

[Findog]

I'm much better off then I was 8 years ago.............wanna know the secret?

I work my fucking ass off.

So have I. You think I just sit around on my ass all day long? Not every Obama supporter is some underemployed welfare recipient waiting on a handout to come on January 20, 2009. You are substituting your own personal experience and anecdotal evidence for what is broadly taking place across the country.

[2centsworth]

Findog][/B]

economy? It's insulting to say that the Democrats tax policies are about "penalizing success." You want good roads to drive on, you want good public schools for your children, you want well-staffed hospitals, you want levees in New Orleans to hold up? Then pay your taxes and shut up.

if the taxes went to infrastructure I would be more for it, but like your 95% gaff you're wrong about this too.

[Findog]

Come to think of it, everyone in my family is also better off.................guess how they did it?


They worked their asses off.

Yep, yep, yep, this is why the Republicans are going to lose the election. This is their basic message to anybody who saw their lucrative IT job go to India and had to work long hours busting their ass at Home Depot for far less pay because that was all that was available in their community: You're lazy. Do I think Obama will bring back my dad's IT job? No, he won't. But he won't call my dad lazy either.

[DarrinS]

I agree with Obama on all the issues.


We need to tax the hell out of rich people and big corporations because, well, they are evil. We then need to give this money to people wo don't pay any taxes, so they can use it to send their kids to college.

I also agree with Obama that the government can run the health care system WAYY better than the private sector can. A great example is the Cuban health care system. Anyone who hasn't seen Michael Moore's propaganda film, I mean documentary, Sicko, should go out and rent it immediately.

I can't decide where I stand on abortion. That is above my pay grade. For now, I'll just vote "present".


I also agree with Obama that we should stop using fossil fuels within 10 years, because that is a highly realistic goal.

[DarrinS]

This is their basic message to anybody who saw their lucrative IT job go to India.


If anyone lost their IT job to someone in India, then it wasn't a very good IT job to begin with.

[fyatuk]

lol, how many people in this country are better off than they were 8 years ago under Bush? My parents are worse off, I'm worse off, most people I know are worse off. Republicans have lost all credibility with me, as has their "just cut taxes on the rich and everybody's boat will rise" ethos.

Me and most of everyone I know are better off (and we're all in the bottom half of middle class, me lower than them) than we were 7-8 years ago. It's since the housing finance crash that we've been getting worse, particularly me.

My company increased the standard wage they gave to everyone after Bush cut taxes. Don't know if they were related or just due to the phenomonal growth my employer was enjoying, though.

[Findog]

if the taxes went to infrastructure I would be more for it, but like your 95% gaff you're wrong about this too.

Most likely it will be to cover budget deficits and make some very hard choices. I wasn't fooled, at the end of Obama's nomination speech he started rattling off all this stuff he was going to do, of which 10% he will be lucky to accomplish.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

How is it a good thing to transfer wealth from the middle class to the already rich? Without a middle class, you don't have a democracy. Economic liberty always precedes political liberty.that's what i'm asking. if the middle class is shrinking in number then how are the numbers of rich and poor being affected?

[JoeChalupa]

Joe:

Off topic, but how can you be a Catholic that believes life begins at inception, and be pro-choice?

Here we go again. I've posted on this subject on so many boards and went round and round with Yonivore on this. My belief is MY belief and I cannot force my views upon a woman. I would never approve of my daughter's wanting an abortion. I would choose life but I'm not and never will be a woman who has to make that decision.
I'm sure this won't be the last time I'm asked that question and not the last time that someone doesn't understand, and I understand that.

[Anti.Hero]

Yep, yep, yep, this is why the Republicans are going to lose the election. This is their basic message to anybody who saw their lucrative IT job go to India and had to work long hours busting their ass at Home Depot for far less pay because that was all that was available in their community: You're lazy. Do I think Obama will bring back my dad's IT job? No, he won't. But he won't call my dad lazy either.

And that is why 20 years from now, those who think Obama will change their lives will still be living a shit life; while those who everyone wants to punish will still be wealthy.


Those who inherit money and never learn how to make it on their own are weak (unless they become politicians). Those who started from the bottom and learned how to make it, will always know what it takes to make it no matter the current living situation they find themselves in. The Global Economy is a real bitch. It is on each person in this country to adapt. That is reality.

[johnsmith]

So have I. You think I just sit around on my ass all day long? Not every Obama supporter is some underemployed welfare recipient waiting on a handout to come on January 20, 2009. You are substituting your own personal experience and anecdotal evidence for what is broadly taking place across the country.

I recognize that not every Obama supporter is a welfare recipient. What I don't recognize is why every Obama supporter feels that the wealthy should flip a majority of the bill for actual welfare recipients?

A while back I saw a poll on some website that like 10,000 people responded to. The question was "how do you think millionaires made their fortunes". 96% of the respondants said through inheritence. That means that 96% of the responders on this poll have no fucking clue about economics, life, or hard fucking work, which is what in my opinion it takes to be rich.

I'm not substituting shit either. I'm stating my belief, that if you work fucking hard, you too can eventually be raped by Obama and company.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I agree with Obama on all the issues.


We need to tax the hell out of rich people and big corporations because, well, they are evil. We then need to give this money to people wo don't pay any taxes, so they can use it to send their kids to college.

I also agree with Obama that the government can run the health care system WAYY better than the private sector can. A great example is the Cuban health care system. Anyone who hasn't seen Michael Moore's propaganda film, I mean documentary, Sicko, should go out and rent it immediately.

I can't decide where I stand on abortion. That is above my pay grade. For now, I'll just vote "present".


I also agree with Obama that we should stop using fossil fuels within 10 years, because that is a highly realistic goal.

are you serious?

[JoeChalupa]

I'm much better off then I was 8 years ago.............wanna know the secret?

I work my fucking ass off.

I do too but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who work their asses off working 2 or even 3 jobs who are still struggling. Yeah, they may not have that college degree or the ability to work themselves up the ladder of success. It is easy to say "If I can do it so can you" but as much as I believe in hard work the reality is that there are people struggling out there. Not everyone's wages are increasing with the higher prices of food, gas and utilities.


But I hear ya.

[Findog]

We need to tax the hell out of rich people and big corporations because, well, they are evil.

"tax the hell out of rich people" instead of "raise their taxes and give the middle-class tax cut" relief. Yes, those poor, poor, rich people, they sure have had it hard the past 8 years. How dare we make life a tiny bit less lucrative than them.

For the record, I don't support taxes on corporations because corporations don't pay taxes, they pass them on to their consumers.


We then need to give this money to people wo don't pay any taxes, so they can use it to send their kids to college.

Democrats are going to take your hard-earned tax dollars and give them to welfare cheats. Geez, what year is this? Can the GOP ever move past the same old tired cliches?

I also agree with Obama that the government can run the health care system WAYY better than the private sector can. A great example is the Cuban health care system. Anyone who hasn't seen Michael Moore's propaganda film, I mean documentary, Sicko, should go out and rent it immediately. [/QUOTE]

Typical. Barack Obama = Michael Moore. Single payer system = communism. I mean, it's not like health care is even an issue in this election since the the private sector has done such a great job. Let's continue to pay for poor people to use the emergency room as their primary care physician and let the taxpayers pick up the tab.

[DarrinS]

are you serious?


I thought my sarcasm was pretty obvious.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I thought my sarcasm was pretty obvious.

God love ya, DarrinS!!!

[Findog]

A while back I saw a poll on some website that like 10,000 people responded to. The question was "how do you think millionaires made their fortunes". 96% of the respondants said through inheritence. That means that 96% of the responders on this poll have no fucking clue about economics, life, or hard fucking work, which is what in my opinion it takes to be rich.


Lots of wealth is inherited but a lot is self-made. I try not to deal in absolutes.

[Findog]

If anyone lost their IT job to someone in India, then it wasn't a very good IT job to begin with.

I'm just gonna go ahead and make a quip about something I know nothing about because I'm a edgy, witty guy. Yeah, a $95,000 a year job is certainly not a good gig at all.

[Anti.Hero]

Politicians don't even pay into/receive social security right? Why should I have to, if I sacrifice to fund a rothIRA.

Obama says he wants everyone to have the same health care as their political officials, except you will have to wait in line.

The government has already proved numerous times they can not run the country as a business because they do not have to be accountable. Pile on the bureaucracy and it is all a cluster-fuck.

[DarrinS]

I'm just gonna go ahead and make a quip about something I know nothing about because I'm a edgy, witty guy. Yeah, a $95,000 a year job is certainly not a good gig at all.


Well, if you're that good, go get another job.


But don't try to make too much more than that, because you'll move into a slightly higher tax bracket and it won't be worth it.


I don't think people should be penalized for being industrious.

[DarrinS]

The government has already proved numerous times they can not run the country as a business because they do not have to be accountable. Pile on the bureaucracy and it is all a cluster-fuck.



Well, Congress created Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, and look how well they've done. Oh, snap.

[johnsmith]

I do too but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who work their asses off working 2 or even 3 jobs who are still struggling. Yeah, they may not have that college degree or the ability to work themselves up the ladder of success. It is easy to say "If I can do it so can you" but as much as I believe in hard work the reality is that there are people struggling out there. Not everyone's wages are increasing with the higher prices of food, gas and utilities.


But I hear ya.

I'm picking up what you're putting down here Chalupa, I really am. But take the construction business for example. A hard working individual with absolutely no construction experience can go out to a job as a 'helper' and earn about $13 an hour plus time and a half overtime on a 60-70 hour workweek. This takes absolutely no skills whatsoever other then hard work and comes in around $50,000 a year (not bad). Within two years, if that individual is WORKING HARD, he/she can become a journeyman and bump that wage up to $20/hour (that's on the low side). Now you are talking $72,800 per year, just for WORKING HARD (and not being a complete idiot).

It takes nothing in this country to accomplish the above, other then hard fucking work.


I realize that this is just one example, but my point is, hard work can get you a hell of a lot further in this country then the government will ever get you.

[JoeChalupa]

The more people make the higher they live which is fine by me. I just don't get it when people who make way more than I do get bailed out of their mortgage and I'm working my ass to pay my mortgage because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the adjustable mortgage.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm picking up what you're putting down here Chalupa, I really am. But take the construction business for example. A hard working individual with absolutely no construction experience can go out to a job as a 'helper' and earn about $13 an hour plus time and a half overtime on a 60-70 hour workweek. This takes absolutely no skills whatsoever other then hard work and comes in around $50,000 a year (not bad). Within two years, if that individual is WORKING HARD, he/she can become a journeyman and bump that wage up to $20/hour (that's on the low side). Now you are talking $72,800 per year, just for WORKING HARD (and not being a complete idiot).

It takes nothing in this country to accomplish the above, other then hard fucking work.


I realize that this is just one example, but my point is, hard work can get you a hell of a lot further in this country then the government will ever get you.

True but a helping hand never hurt...well you know what I mean. And I know some construction guys who don't make near that money. And it is easier said than done.

[Findog]

Well, if you're that good, go get another job.

You're right, it's all so simple. When you lose a job, it's just a matter of getting another one that is just as good and pays just as much, or hell, just one that helps you get just get by and make ends meet. My dad has no one but himself to blame for circumstances beyond his control.

[johnsmith]

I just don't get it when people who make way more than I do get bailed out of their mortgage and I'm working my ass to pay my mortgage because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the adjustable mortgage.

+1

[DarrinS]

The more people make the higher they live which is fine by me. I just don't get it when people who make way more than I do get bailed out of their mortgage and I'm working my ass to pay my mortgage because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the adjustable mortgage.


That shouldn't happen.

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of defaulted mortgages aren't by wealthy individuals.

[DarrinS]

You're right, it's all so simple. When you lose a job, it's just a matter of getting another one that is just as good and pays just as much, or hell, just one that helps you get just get by and make ends meet. My dad has no one but himself to blame for circumstances beyond his control.



jobs, education, heath care


None of these things are guaranteed by the Constitution or our Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, many Americans think they are (or should be).

[fyatuk]

Personally, I still think the best way to currently help the poor is to make the Payroll tax progressive. Eliminate employee share on the first $15k earned, have a reduced rate up to 50k, then full rate on everything else (no cap). Leave employer share at the same rate for everything but remove the cap.

This would end up being a near $.50 an hour net increase for the poorest members, while making it less appetizing for companies to overpay for executives and the like which should reduce the income gap.

[johnsmith]

True but a helping hand never hurt...well you know what I mean. And I know some construction guys who don't make near that money. And it is easier said than done.

I know those guys too, and if they'd just open their ears and eyes a little to the opportunities around them they'd realize just how well they could do.

Building homes and commercial buildings ain't shit compared to industrial work. On the last job I was on the rigging foreman grossed about three times more then I did when all was said and done. Sure I get to sit in an office, but that dude had it pretty good as well.

[Findog]

I don't want a permanent welfare society that is dependent upon entitlements, but there DOES need to be a social safety net for hard-working people that play by the rules and occasionally run into circumstances beyond their control. Just because somebody else once scammed the system for a few middling benefits doesn't mean I should be cut off from temporary unemployment benefits. And no, soup kitchens and private church charities shouldn't be the lone source of a safety net.

[DarrinS]

Personally, I still think the best way to currently help the poor is to make the Payroll tax progressive. Eliminate employee share on the first $15k earned, have a reduced rate up to 50k, then full rate on everything else (no cap). Leave employer share at the same rate for everything but remove the cap.

This would end up being a near $.50 an hour net increase for the poorest members, while making it less appetizing for companies to overpay for executives and the like which should reduce the income gap.



Why not have that reduced rate up to 150k? Or 200k?


How much money is too much money? Evidently, to you it is arbitrarily at 50k.

[johnsmith]

I don't want a permanent welfare society that is dependent upon entitlements, but there DOES need to be a social safety net for hard-working people that play by the rules and occasionally run into circumstances beyond their control. Just because somebody else once scammed the system for a few middling benefits doesn't mean I should be cut off from temporary unemployment benefits. And no, soup kitchens and private church charities shouldn't be the lone source of a safety net.

Right, and you want the folks that have "made it" to flip the bill.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

And I know some construction guys who don't make near that money.

That's because the work isn't there or their prices have been cut for companies to afford paying 20-30 hours of OT. Hell, being able to afford to pay my guys 1-10 hours of OT is a fantasy right now.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The more people make the higher they live which is fine by me. I just don't get it when people who make way more than I do get bailed out of their mortgage and I'm working my ass to pay my mortgage because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the adjustable mortgage.
just wait for the big three. lehman brothers on the horizon. and the airline industry. government government government
let the market decide what we want. put up that teat!

[johnsmith]

That's because the work isn't there or their prices have been cut for companies to afford paying 20-30 hours of OT. Hell, being able to afford to pay my guys 1-10 hours of OT is a fantasy right now.

What type of construction are you in?

I just finished a job that was working 6 12's.

[Findog]

jobs, education, heath care


None of these things are guaranteed by the Constitution or our Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, many Americans think they are (or should be).

No, they are not. The constitution was also written nearly 300 years ago by privileged white slave-owners in an agrarian economy. I'm not saying chuck the bill of rights or the constitution, but people DO want their government to manage the country in such a way that those things are not out of reach for them if they work hard. I'm not asking government to do things for me than I can't do for myself. What I am asking the government to do is not invade countries that don't want war with us and didn't attack us, and maintain basic things like bridges and levees. I want competence from my government, and the Republicans have failed in just about every way imaginable.

[2centsworth]

I recognize that not every Obama supporter is a welfare recipient. What I don't recognize is why every Obama supporter feels that the wealthy should flip a majority of the bill for actual welfare recipients?

A while back I saw a poll on some website that like 10,000 people responded to. The question was "how do you think millionaires made their fortunes". 96% of the respondants said through inheritence. That means that 96% of the responders on this poll have no fucking clue about economics, life, or hard fucking work, which is what in my opinion it takes to be rich.

I'm not substituting shit either. I'm stating my belief, that if you work fucking hard, you too can eventually be raped by Obama and company.

that is truly ignorant. 80% of millionaires are 1st generation. Most of the people who inherit their first real money blow it within 5 years.

[johnsmith]

No, they are not. The constitution was also written nearly 300 years ago by privileged white slave-owners in an agrarian economy. I'm not saying chuck the bill of rights or the constitution, but people DO want their government to manage the country in such a way that those things are not out of reach for them if they work hard. I'm not asking government to do things for me than I can't do for myself. What I am asking the government to do is not invade countries that don't want war with us and didn't attack us, and maintain basic things like bridges and levees. I want competence from my government, and the Republicans have failed in just about every way imaginable.

So Kosovo and Iraq were both terrible ideas to you.

Why do you support mass murder?

How did the repubs break those levees?

How did repubs ruin the bridge in Minnesota?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

What type of construction are you in?

I just finished a job that was working 6 12's.


Rezzy, but you have to realize that the economy around here has been in the shitter a lot longer than the rest of the country. Almost everyone I know in construction has had to leave the state to find work in the last 12 months

[johnsmith]

Rezzy, but you have to realize that the economy around here has been in the shitter a lot longer than the rest of the country. Almost everyone I know in construction has had to leave the state to find work in the last 12 months

I don't doubt that. I talked to a buddy of mine in Colorado who does Res. as well. He's been laying folks off for the past 6 months.

[fyatuk]

Why not have that reduced rate up to 150k? Or 200k?


How much money is too much money? Evidently, to you it is arbitrarily at 50k.

I choose 50k because in the vast majority of places in this country, that is a solid livable wage for an average family. Obviously I'm not an expert so those numbers are fairly arbitrary in terms of gut instinct, etc.

If you want to get technical, I'd say you go with federal poverty line for a "typical" family for no payroll tax, and some multiplier (I tend to like 4, just because) for the reduced rate.

The point was, that sort of premise addresses several problems we have: low wages for workers, and income differential between peon, management, and executive.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

and the Republicans have failed in just about every way imaginable.
a majority of dems "ran" fannie mae and freddie mac.

[2centsworth]

Rezzy, but you have to realize that the economy around here has been in the shitter a lot longer than the rest of the country. Almost everyone I know in construction has had to leave the state to find work in the last 12 months

commerical construction is freakin booming in SA. Well, at least is was a few months back when I followed it.

[smeagol]

Here we go again. I've posted on this subject on so many boards and went round and round with Yonivore on this. My belief is MY belief and I cannot force my views upon a woman. I would never approve of my daughter's wanting an abortion. I would choose life but I'm not and never will be a woman who has to make that decision.
I'm sure this won't be the last time I'm asked that question and not the last time that someone doesn't understand, and I understand that.

Thanks

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't doubt that. I talked to a buddy of mine in Colorado who does Res. as well. He's been laying folks off for the past 6 months.

Yeah, an electrician I know had 50 employees not less than two years ago. He's down to 6 right now and talking about closing up shop.

We had 60 and are now down to 18. Just trying to keep our heads above water at the moment.

[Findog]

So Kosovo and Iraq were both terrible ideas to you.

Hell yes



Why do you support mass murder?

No, which is why I didn't support either war. I got news for you: Saddam's brutality isn't enough of a reason to invade a country. You feel differently, we've got about 80 countries to invade for poor human rights records.


How did the repubs break those levees?

Did my eyes deceive me or did New Orleans drown while Bush fiddled his guitar and pronounced the head of FEMA to be doing a heckuva job?

[JoeChalupa]

I know those guys too, and if they'd just open their ears and eyes a little to the opportunities around them they'd realize just how well they could do.

Building homes and commercial buildings ain't shit compared to industrial work. On the last job I was on the rigging foreman grossed about three times more then I did when all was said and done. Sure I get to sit in an office, but that dude had it pretty good as well.

And that is why homes cost so damn much these days. It is hard for couples to buy a home when they start in the $100's. And for me it never has been about the benjamins. I know I could be making much more cash but that is not all that I live for. IMO, the all mighty dollar has corrupted minds and morals. I'm not saying people shouldn't want to become wealthy I just don't think it is THE thing to strive for.
I've never judged success by the size of one's income.

[2centsworth]

a majority of dems "ran" fannie mae and freddie mac.


US was essentially the reinsurer to those companies. Our government had a responsibility to bail them out, because that's what insurance is for.

As far as those other industries, aint no insurance for those.

this damn ponzi scheme that is the united states government will eventually catch-up with us.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

commerical construction is freakin booming in SA. Well, at least is was a few months back when I followed it.damn, come to dallas. we're renting cranes and equipment from other states and countries to keep up. no signs of recession based on the skyline here. that may be a stupid thing to say, but it sure as hell doesn't look like it.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

commerical construction is freakin booming in SA. Well, at least is was a few months back when I followed it.

Not much to do around here when the local economy is tied to the automotive industry. It's a nice anchor.

[JoeChalupa]

Thanks

:tu

[Viva Las Espuelas]

US was essentially the reinsurer to those companies. Our government had a responsibility to bail them out, because that's what insurance is for.

As far as those other industries, aint no insurance for those.

this damn ponzi scheme that is the united states government will eventually catch-up with us.
ponzi? kin to arthur fonzerelli?

[2centsworth]

And that is why homes cost so damn much these days. It is hard for couples to buy a home when they start in the $100's. And for me it never has been about the benjamins. I know I could be making much more cash but that is not all that I live for. IMO, the all mighty dollar has corrupted minds and morals. I'm not saying people shouldn't want to become wealthy I just don't think it is THE thing to strive for.
I've never judged success by the size of one's income.

freedom of choice. I tend to have your philosophy as far as money is concerned, but we don't have the right to legislate our beliefs on others.

[2centsworth]

ponzi? kin to arthur fonzerelli?

ponzi or pyramid, whatever you want to call it. btw, did I misspell it?

[johnsmith]

Did my eyes deceive me or did New Orleans drown while Bush fiddled his guitar and pronounced the head of FEMA to be doing a heckuva job?


Would you rather have had Bush and FEMA repairing the levees while the hurricane was hitting?

Blaming NO on the Bush administration is like blaming Tony Romo for the entire loss against the Seahawks when he fumbled the snap. The whole team failed up to that point, you just needed someone you don't care for to pin it on.

[Findog]

Would you rather have had Bush and FEMA repairing the levees while the hurricane was hitting?

Blaming NO on the Bush administration is like blaming Tony Romo for the entire loss against the Seahawks when he fumbled the snap. The whole team failed up to that point, you just needed someone you don't care for to pin it on.

And if I lived in Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco and Ray Nagin wouldn't get my vote either. Bush deserves the blame for FEMA, Blanco and Nagin get the blame for the local response.

[JoeChalupa]

freedom of choice. I tend to have your philosophy as far as money is concerned, but we don't have the right to legislate our beliefs on others.

I concur. That is why I am pro-choice. But we do already legislate some of our beliefs on others.

[KenMcCoy]

And that is why homes cost so damn much these days. It is hard for couples to buy a home when they start in the $100's. And for me it never has been about the benjamins. I know I could be making much more cash but that is not all that I live for. IMO, the all mighty dollar has corrupted minds and morals. I'm not saying people shouldn't want to become wealthy I just don't think it is THE thing to strive for.
I've never judged success by the size of one's income.

If you live in SA there are many many homes less than 100K. This all goes to people trying to live beyond their means. A friend of mine worked at what used to be World Savings and would consistently tell me of people that made 40-60K trying to buy 500K homes...

[2centsworth]

I concur. That is why I am pro-choice. But we do already legislate some of our beliefs on others.

i do believe in protecting people against violence and protecting their property. Where you an I differ is in who is included as people.

[KenMcCoy]

The three things a democratic government needs to do:

1) Protect the country's borders
2) Maintain order in the country's interior
3) Instill trust in the country's currency

Anything after that everything else should be left to the markets.

[RonMexico]

Democrats aren't the ones that cut taxes and increased spending. 1% of the U.S. population now owns 95% of the nation's wealth, the highest discrepancy since the Great Depression. Rich people can shut the fuck up about their taxes.

It's true that capital is required for investment, and you can't invest money that is in the US govt's coffers. So for that reason, I do not support corporate taxes, they simply pass them along to their customers in the form of higher prices. But for some dude making $500,000 a year and is going to see his personal income taxes go up to pay for things like rebuilding crumbling infrastructure and on things like health care, I got a message for you: SHUT THE FUCK UP. Boo fucking hoo about your tax bracket.

My only hope of changes in corporate culture would be responsibility placed upon the shoulders of CEOs and Chairmen that make horrible decisions that affect many average consumers, yet still take home over $40m in salary and benefits. The Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac company leaders were making millions of dollars per year and just had to be bailed out by the government... without a hint of personal responsibility.

However, the country would still walk a tenuous line because performance-based compensation would place an emphasis upon corporate returns and provide greater incentive for CEOs to mislead investors leading to Enron, WorldCom, Tyco... etc. all over again.

[101A]

Well, that worked.

Of course I started the whole thing off track by citing a 2005 source to correct a factual error. Of course my source was ignored, and people continued to pull numbers out their asses and make this a class-warfare thread.

Interesting, actually.

In a thread ostensibly dedicated to only issues; THAT issue is what sparked the "hijacking". I fell for it myself. Mea Culpa.

All other things being equal; THAT seems to be the issue that most divides us; how much the wealthy OUGHT to pay in taxes - hell we can't agree on how much they actually DO pay! It's why the Democrats run on it every 4 years; MOST Americans, by definition are not wealthy; as "wealthy" will always be people with more than most. The Republicans, on the other hand, in defending their own policies make a point of never actually SAYING they are defending the wealthy (conservative commentators make the argument, but I don't think politicians do).

Again, interesting.

[101A]

My only hope of changes in corporate culture would be responsibility placed upon the shoulders of CEOs and Chairmen that make horrible decisions that affect many average consumers, yet still take home over $40m in salary and benefits. The Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac company leaders were making millions of dollars per year and just had to be bailed out by the government... without a hint of personal responsibility.

However, the country would still walk a tenuous line because performance-based compensation would place an emphasis upon corporate returns and provide greater incentive for CEOs to mislead investors leading to Enron, WorldCom, Tyco... etc. all over again.


In other news; good post.

Pisses me off no end to see corps bailed out 1 after the other.

I own a business my title: President/CEO. IF I FUCK it up - the business folds, people lose jobs, I go personally bankrupt and am generally screwed. My resume will read:

"Ran a Business into the Ground Spending too much damn time on discussion forums".

There is no parachute, no bailout; not even an insurance policy I can buy.

I guess that's why, with so much risk in what I do, with how much I have to lose; and while taking that risk I provide 30 jobs (pretty good paying one) - when the govt. wants to take of 50% of what I do make when I am doing a good job - while bailing out other companies, because they are bigger and their failure affects more (voters) and the economy a a whole - well, just pisses me off.

Oh yeah, and if I pull it off, keep it going, make it successful until the day I die, many people want to make the taxes SO high at that point, that my kids will have to sell the business just to pay them.

That's where I'm coming from on the whole class-warfare thing.

[DarkReign]

I don't doubt that.

Please dont. Michigan blows, and Im not just talking about the football team.

[RandomGuy]

I disagree with both candidates on the use of the death penalty. Life in prison, without the possibility of parole provides the same benefits to the society, while costing fewer dollars, and eliminating the chance of "getting it wrong - and killing an innocent person".

I agree whole-heartedly.

[fyatuk]

I agree whole-heartedly.

I disagree with the death penalty only when applied to a first offense. I completely disagree with "Life without parole".

[ploto]

I just do not understand how people can claim to be "pro-life" and support the death penalty. If life is sacred, then it ALL is.

[fyatuk]

I just do not understand how people can claim to be "pro-life" and support the death penalty. If life is sacred, then it ALL is.

An unborn child is as innocent as it gets. Death penalty is applied those who have committed grave sin.

It's an eye for an eye viewpoint. How is that difficult to understand.

Not that I share it, mind you.

I have a harder time understanding those opposed to the death penalty but pro-choice.

[TheMadHatter]

Pro-Lifers that support the Death Penalty are the very definition of hypocrisy.

[101A]

Pro-Lifers that support the Death Penalty are the very definition of hypocrisy.

bad argument

I do not support the death, but that notwithstanding, being pro-life and pro death penalty is not hypocritical.

Innocent live vs. otherwise.

[101A]

double post

[I am Tom]

bad argument

I do not support the death, but that notwithstanding, being pro-life and pro death penalty is not hypocritical.

Innocent live vs. otherwise.

Life is life.

[boutons_]

"pro-life and pro death penalty is not hypocritical"

Of course it is. It's being pro-life selectively, and pro-death selectively.

Pro-life is saying life begins at conception, but selecting out all the conceived embryos that are trashed by fertility clinics as not a concern for the pro-lifers.

There are too many documented, proven errors in executions to justify execution. Executions, even imprisonment, do not dissuade criminals.