Amaré wants to be like Ron

[Allanon]

Why be like Mike when you can be like Ron?



Amare Wants to be Who?
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9985

Amare Stoudemire is one of the best young big men in the league. He has overcome microfracture surgery and is expecting big things from himself this season.

"I feel fit and fierce," Stoudemire told the Arizona Republic. "My health is tremendous. I have no worries about extra work. Before, I never wanted to overwork. I always wanted to do more, but I was coming back from injuries. I can do whatever I want on the court without second-guessing now."

This is obviously good news for any true fan of the NBA. Amare continued by saying he was looking forward to playing under new coach Terry Porter.

Nothing out of the ordinary, right? Well, later is where things got a little weird.

Amaré went on to say: "I want to be Ron Artest."

Umm... excuse me. You want to be who?

Obviously Stoudemire was referring to what Artest brings on the defensive end of the floor, at least that's what one has to hope.

You won't find anyone who likes speaking with Artest more than your friendly neighborhood columnist. Dude's always been great to me. That said, one would have to be a complete fool or intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge the issues Ron-Ron has had away from the hardwood, and I'm not sure I would be thrilled about my franchise player saying he wants "to be Ron Artest."

I'm going to give Stoudemire the benefit of the doubt here. But just for future reference, Amare, you might want to choose another example of defensive excellence when proclaiming who you "want to be" in the future. Simply put, the Suns can't afford to have Stoudemire veer off course even for a moment.

[ducks]

prove it

[m33p0]

o_O

[Tully365]

What was stopping him the last 4 or 5 years from playing defense?

[m33p0]

What was stopping him the last 4 or 5 years from playing defense?
http://content.clearchannel.com/Photos/sports_photos/NBA/Suns/mike_d-Antoni_GI5.jpg

[N4th4n]

http://content.clearchannel.com/Photos/sports_photos/NBA/Suns/mike_d-Antoni_GI5.jpg

:clap

[robbie380]

lol did d'antoni force raja bell and marion to not play defense?

amare is just an inconsistent defender. i hope artest rips his face off.:toast

[timtonymanu]

Amare needs to learn defense. at least he's got the whiny attitude like artest.

[JamStone]

I'd say he's already done a pretty good job at being like Ron for much of his NBA career.

His stupid is just a little bit different.

[xtremesteven33]

People shouldnt sleep on Phoenix next year. wouldnt surprise me if they get the #1 spot if they stay healthy.

[Tully365]

Blaming D'Antoni is lame. Every sportscaster, scout, opposing coach, and opposing player in the league has seen Amare's lack of interest on the defensive end of the court. He has no one to blame but himself. It's pretty weak that after playing basketball his entire life, Amare has finally come to the realization that D is important. You think losing to the Spurs again in the playoffs last year has anything to do with that?

[JMarkJohns]

Blaming D'Antoni is lame. Every sportscaster, scout, opposing coach, and opposing player in the league has seen Amare's lack of interest on the defensive end of the court. He has no one to blame but himself. It's pretty weak that after playing basketball his entire life, Amare has finally come to the realization that D is important. You think losing to the Spurs again in the playoffs last year has anything to do with that?

You do realize that the Suns entire defense was based upon athleticism, not positioning or technique, but simply out-quicking the offense to spots on the floor. If they failed, D'Antoni has been quoted as saying he'd rather give up the basket than foul, because such would stop game flow and slow the game down, breaking the Suns rhythm and allowing the defense to get set.

I won't ever blame D'Antoni entirely for Amare's inability and laziness on defense during their 3+ year run together, but aspects of D'Antoni (his chaotic, then apathetic defensive style - his inability to teach and instruct - and his unwillingness to hold players accountable for poor defense so long as they played offense) didn't mesh well with Amare's limitations and abilities. These aspects only further held Amare back by failing to instruct and teach, and then empowered Amare to be lazy through his style and over philosophy.

A new coach with an ability to teach, and a new system that isn't predicated on chaotic swarming/trapping and maybe Amare will get better.

He talks too much, and this is certainly foolishness to some extent, but whether you like the guy or not, he's improved drastically in every point-of-emphasis area under his old coach and within his old system, so it's not unreasonable to think that with new points of emphasis and a new-found excitement for defense, that he'll be able to gradually improve upon his positioning, technique and decision-making, and quite possibly be able to replace his older, poor habits on defense with new, better ones.

Amare loves to take on public perception. When someone says he can't or won't, he generally gives his all to prove them wrong when allowed.

He has a "will do" attitude about basketball, and such may be able to make up for years of neglect, a development of bad habits, and whatever limitations he has.

What some of us perceive to be mental limitations may actually be his instincts basing his play upon these developed bad habits. he's a very instinctual player. He doesn't think. He reacts. If his reactions are based upon ill-taught schemes and philosophies of apathy, then it shouldn't surprise when his actions are often boneheaded and costly.

I can't wait to see him develop new habits to base his instinctive play off of. I doubt he'll ever play at a level of Ron Artest, but he can become a very solid on-ball defender, as he has the strength and size to combat most every PF and even most CC, but he also has the quick reaction skills and athleticism to provide good secondary defense if he should be beaten initially. He's a solid shot-blocker and I'm excited to see this trait unleashed outside of a "never foul" context where that split second it took him to decide whether or not to contest probably cost him an opportunity to block or contest without fouling.

It's a complex response regarding a complex situation. The claim is silly, but the motivation behind it and the factors contributing excite me that he can and "will" change.

[BUMP]

You do realize that the Suns entire defense was based upon athleticism, not positioning or technique, but simply out-quicking the offense to spots on the floor. If they failed, D'Antoni has been quoted as saying he'd rather give up the basket than foul, because such would stop game flow and slow the game down, breaking the Suns rhythm and allowing the defense to get set.

I won't ever blame D'Antoni entirely for Amare's inability and laziness on defense during their 3+ year run together, but aspects of D'Antoni (his chaotic, then apathetic defensive style - his inability to teach and instruct - and his unwillingness to hold players accountable for poor defense so long as they played offense) didn't mesh well with Amare's limitations and abilities. These aspects only further held Amare back by failing to instruct and teach, and then empowered Amare to be lazy through his style and over philosophy.

A new coach with an ability to teach, and a new system that isn't predicated on chaotic swarming/trapping and maybe Amare will get better.

He talks too much, and this is certainly foolishness to some extent, but whether you like the guy or not, he's improved drastically in every point-of-emphasis area under his old coach and within his old system, so it's not unreasonable to think that with new points of emphasis and a new-found excitement for defense, that he'll be able to gradually improve upon his positioning, technique and decision-making, and quite possibly be able to replace his older, poor habits on defense with new, better ones.

Amare loves to take on public perception. When someone says he can't or won't, he generally gives his all to prove them wrong when allowed.

He has a "will do" attitude about basketball, and such may be able to make up for years of neglect, a development of bad habits, and whatever limitations he has.

What some of us perceive to be mental limitations may actually be his instincts basing his play upon these developed bad habits. he's a very instinctual player. He doesn't think. He reacts. If his reactions are based upon ill-taught schemes and philosophies of apathy, then it shouldn't surprise when his actions are often boneheaded and costly.

I can't wait to see him develop new habits to base his instinctive play off of. I doubt he'll ever play at a level of Ron Artest, but he can become a very solid on-ball defender, as he has the strength and size to combat most every PF and even most CC, but he also has the quick reaction skills and athleticism to provide good secondary defense if he should be beaten initially. He's a solid shot-blocker and I'm excited to see this trait unleashed outside of a "never foul" context where that split second it took him to decide whether or not to contest probably cost him an opportunity to block or contest without fouling.

It's a complex response regarding a complex situation. The claim is silly, but the motivation behind it and the factors contributing excite me that he can and "will" change.

good post:toast

[Tully365]

If D'Antoni's instruction was "never foul", Amare did a pretty bad job of following those simple instructions. Popovich essentially gives the same instructions to Bowen, Ginobili, and Udoka when they are guarding the Kobes & Dwades of the league. Amare was constantly in foul trouble against the Spurs in the last few playoff series. It's a positive move for him that he's talking about D, but he has been a disinterested defender his whole career so far and blaming D'Antoni for that is a cop out.

[JMarkJohns]

If D'Antoni's instruction was "never foul", Amare did a pretty bad job of following those simple instructions. Popovich essentially gives the same instructions to Bowen, Ginobili, and Udoka when they are guarding the Kobes & Dwades of the league. Amare was constantly in foul trouble against the Spurs in the last few playoff series. It's a positive move for him that he's talking about D, but he has been a disinterested defender his whole career so far and blaming D'Antoni for that is a cop out.

You're simply not getting it. Amare is an instinctual player. He is a competitor. He contests any shot he can. Problem is most times it came too late. I wonder how much of this issue stems from a scheme that constantly found him in bad defensive positioning from the swarming style he attempted to play and an underlying philosophy of just let 'em score, which are on D'Antoni.

If you remember him as a prospect out of high school, he was generally regarded a defensive player with offensive upside. I don't think he was a poor defender his rookie year. Limited, but not poor. His disinterest conveniently arrives around the same time D'Antoni's system did.

Again, I'm not blaming D'Antoni entirely. I think the two's attitudes just didn't mesh with regards to defense, so I'm excited to see a different coach get a shot.

[Reggie Miller]

You're simply not getting it. Amare is an instinctual player. He is a competitor. He contests any shot he can. Problem is most times it came too late. I wonder how much of this issue stems from a scheme that constantly found him in bad defensive positioning from the swarming style he attempted to play and an underlying philosophy of just let 'em score, which are on D'Antoni.

If you remember him as a prospect out of high school, he was generally regarded a defensive player with offensive upside. I don't think he was a poor defender his rookie year. Limited, but not poor. His disinterest conveniently arrives around the same time D'Antoni's system did.

Again, I'm not blaming D'Antoni entirely. I think the two's attitudes just didn't mesh with regards to defense, so I'm excited to see a different coach get a shot.



Additionally, when a player is drafted that young, it is simply understood that the NBA coach and his staff will be held accountable for their development. Whether it is fair or not, D'Antoni was accountable for developing Stoudemire's defense. He did not do so, nor did he employ assistant coaches in that role.

Therefore, some blame falls on DannyTony.

[JMarkJohns]

For me, the more unforgivable sin was this potential of actually inhibiting and limiting any defensive potential Amare had. Not even that he failed to develop, but failed to utilize.

Coaches are responsible for doing their best to place their players in situations where each can succeed for the good of the team. He had Amare for three plus years and never figured out how to get the most out of whatever defense Amare showed ability to play.

He just never had the foundation to simply play it, and the little he developed was then stunted by the scheme, system and overall philosophy of the coach.

[Reggie Miller]

For me, the more unforgivable sin was this potential of actually inhibiting and limiting any defensive potential Amare had. Not even that he failed to develop, but failed to utilize.

Coaches are responsible for doing their best to place their players in situations where each can succeed for the good of the team. He had Amare for three plus years and never figured out how to get the most out of whatever defense Amare showed ability to play.

He just never had the foundation to simply play it, and the little he developed was then stunted by the scheme, system and overall philosophy of the coach.

I agree 100% with your points, actually. I was just trying to couch the point in a way that couldn't be debated. That is, the coach and his staff are responsible when the organization drafts a high school player. Realistically, a team drafting young in the first round can't afford to dump the player in the D League (which didn't even exist until the youth movement made it necessary). Therefore, it is always fair to criticize the coach when you have a guy with Stoudemire's physical gifts who can't make a clean block to save his life, just for example.

I would also blame the player and his high school coaches too. It took a lot of apathy and hypocrisy on the part of several people for this to come to pass. I even blame his mama.

[Gino]

Amare's always SAID the right things about defense, but playing defense is physically and mentally exhausting and I don't think he has it in him.

[pauls931]

Amare needs to learn defense. at least he's got the whiny attitude like artest.

Ever see Duncan get a foul called on him?

[m33p0]

Blaming D'Antoni is lame. Every sportscaster, scout, opposing coach, and opposing player in the league has seen Amare's lack of interest on the defensive end of the court. He has no one to blame but himself. It's pretty weak that after playing basketball his entire life, Amare has finally come to the realization that D is important. You think losing to the Spurs again in the playoffs last year has anything to do with that?
He never held his players accountable for their lapses on the court.

[Sissiborgo]

Pfff Amare is a much better player then Artest...Ron Artest is mabey a good defensive player but scores less,less rebounds,less blocks and amare is also a good defensive player so why be like him...When you already are...:toast

[SenorSpur]

Part of playing defense starts with a willingness and a "want to". Like most players in this league, Amare has all kinds of "want to" when the ball is in his hands. That desire is a bit different when the ball is in the hands of the opposition.

[JMarkJohns]

Part of playing defense starts with a willingness and a "want to". Like most players in this league, Amare has all kinds of "want to" when the ball is in his hands. That desire is a bit different when the ball is in the hands of the opposition.

Valid point. At this point, all his improvement has been on offense, and despite those being the points of emphasis from his coach, it's also the fun part of the game.

Still, Whenever he's said he's going to do something, he generally surprises with his ability to deliver. Before Shaq was acquired, his rebounding had improved to nearly 12-per for several months. He was focusing in and was making significant strides. Hopefully such remains a focus, but if Porter can instill a discipline to play solid on-ball, man-to-man, low-post defense, then with his size, strength and athleticism, his solid could be good, and his good,eventually great.

There's few limitations that can keep him from improving. Focus, as the post above stated, is one of them. Hopefully Amare's proclamation will serve as the motivation to stay focused and to prove others wrong, which Amare loves to do. If he can supply the effort and athleticism, then I should think Porter and his staff can supply the know-how and such can be trained into ability.

By saying this, Amare's made himself accountable to general opinion. It's a bold step if he's only going to chicken out. Twixt it and his new staff, hopefully the accountability keeps him focused and on track.

[lefty]

Pfff Amare is a much better player then Artest...Ron Artest is mabey a good defensive player but scores less,less rebounds,less blocks and amare is also a good defensive player so why be like him...When you already are...:toast

Whhhhaaaaat?

Artest can defend AND score

Amare can just score....and it has something to do with Nash

[Reggie Miller]

Valid point. At this point, all his improvement has been on offense, and despite those being the points of emphasis from his coach, it's also the fun part of the game.

Still, Whenever he's said he's going to do something, he generally surprises with his ability to deliver. Before Shaq was acquired, his rebounding had improved to nearly 12-per for several months. He was focusing in and was making significant strides. Hopefully such remains a focus, but if Porter can instill a discipline to play solid on-ball, man-to-man, low-post defense, then with his size, strength and athleticism, his solid could be good, and his good,eventually great.

There's few limitations that can keep him from improving. Focus, as the post above stated, is one of them. Hopefully Amare's proclamation will serve as the motivation to stay focused and to prove others wrong, which Amare loves to do. If he can supply the effort and athleticism, then I should think Porter and his staff can supply the know-how and such can be trained into ability.

By saying this, Amare's made himself accountable to general opinion. It's a bold step if he's only going to chicken out. Twixt it and his new staff, hopefully the accountability keeps him focused and on track.


The clock is starting to run out for Stoudemire. You can't be an elite player without playing both sides of the court. If he is going to realize his potential, he needs to make those large strides right now, as in 2008-2009.

All I can think about is Charles Barkley's ruminations on the subject: "If I had bothered to play defense with intensity, I would have had a ring*..."

* Not an exact quote, but pretty close to quotes made in Outrageous and his other books.

Stoudemire has never even perfected the one defensive "gravy" stat: blocks. The 2003 Suns would have beaten the 2003 Spurs if Stoudemire had just been taught how to box out his man and/or deliver a clean block.

[Tully365]

You're simply not getting it. Amare is an instinctual player. He is a competitor. He contests any shot he can. Problem is most times it came too late. I wonder how much of this issue stems from a scheme that constantly found him in bad defensive positioning from the swarming style he attempted to play and an underlying philosophy of just let 'em score, which are on D'Antoni.

If you remember him as a prospect out of high school, he was generally regarded a defensive player with offensive upside. I don't think he was a poor defender his rookie year. Limited, but not poor. His disinterest conveniently arrives around the same time D'Antoni's system did.

Again, I'm not blaming D'Antoni entirely. I think the two's attitudes just didn't mesh with regards to defense, so I'm excited to see a different coach get a shot.

What does it mean when you say he's an "instinctual player?" Or he's a "competitor?" It sounds like a nice way of saying he doesn't think too much, or adjust to changing situations. Or that he's not the smartest player, which I think is true. Regardless of who the coach is, a smart player knows that if he has 4 fouls midway through the 3rd quarter in a playoff game, he's got to stop lunging for improbable blocks. Amare doesn't get it. Raja played intense D and so did Marion under D'Antoni. Here's a sentence from your post:

"His disinterest conveniently arrives around the same time D'Antoni's system did."

Can you honestly defend that statement? He was disinterested in defense for
4 seasons, and you write it off as an instinctual lack of comfort with the coaching philosophy? No smart, intense player with a will to win gives up on D for nearly half a decade because he doesn't happen to see eye to eye with his coach.

[Tully365]

He doesn't think.


Exactly.

[angelbelow]

he finally wants to work on his defense. a step in the right direction.

[pauls931]

Exactly.

regarding keeping his butt on the bench, I agree.

[tonylongoriafan]

amare is one of the worst defenders in the league, maybe he means he's going to start abusing dogs

[JMarkJohns]

Exactly.

You don't get it. The best basketball is played instinctually. Players have a foundation of fundamentals and technique and they know how to react to any situation without having to take a second to think of the reaction. They just react. Amare is very much this type of player. Many of his flaws stem from a lack of fundamentals, technique and discipline, aspects that he was never held accountable for developing, nor ever taught to him by his coach. I was never surprised when Amare made as many "WTF?!" plays "HTF?!" plays. he simply was never taught to adhere to such in practice (largely because a D'Antoni practice was a glorified scrimmage and not an actual time of learning), and without the hours of practice to develop right habits for his instincts to rely upon, he simply went with whatever reaction came to him first. On defense, most of the reactions were errors in judgment, not that he ever knew any better, nor that D'Antoni ever cared.

That's what I mean by "not thinking" ... it means having a game that so based upon what's been taught and pounded home during ones development that once in a game, the right reaction just come as second nature. No thinking required, just a reaction based on fundamentals, technique and discipline.

Amare NEVER got that under D'Antoni. He was little more than a finisher like Spida or someone from the And-1 Mixtape Tour. D'Antoni's entire offense was opportunistic. It wasn't based upon anything solid. It's the reason why a good defensive team could stifle them enough to evoke frustrated forcing of shots or drives, many of which resulted in an offensive foul by Amare.

As a competitor, all Amare knows is "GO!" If you add any hitch to his go, you increase the risk of mistakes exponentially. If Amare's reactions aren't based upon right aspects of the game, or your philosophy makes him question his reaction for even a split-second, or you lack of a foundation makes him force the issue, you're going to see him make/commit boneheaded mistakes, unnecessary defensive and silly offensive fouls.

Why I think Amare's attitude now is so important is not only is he speaking with excitement on the topic of defense, but he may very well have the support system in place to better his situation through the development of fundamentals, technique, positing, patience and discipline.

Of course it's not going to come together all at once, but Amare, despite being a loudmouth and a bit of an airhead, is a player who's proven to pick up on aspects of the game very quickly when they are properly taught and/or points of emphasis.

Porter and his staff may be the fuel for Amare's fire.

[pauls931]

All I ask is that he covers other players' backs. I lost count of how many layups Parker and others get on the Suns due to his lack of defensive awareness.

[Tully365]

You don't get it. The best basketball is played instinctually. Players have a foundation of fundamentals and technique and they know how to react to any situation without having to take a second to think of the reaction. They just react. Amare is very much this type of player. Many of his flaws stem from a lack of fundamentals, technique and discipline, aspects that he was never held accountable for developing, nor ever taught to him by his coach. I was never surprised when Amare made as many "WTF?!" plays "HTF?!" plays. he simply was never taught to adhere to such in practice (largely because a D'Antoni practice was a glorified scrimmage and not an actual time of learning), and without the hours of practice to develop right habits for his instincts to rely upon, he simply went with whatever reaction came to him first. On defense, most of the reactions were errors in judgment, not that he ever knew any better, nor that D'Antoni ever cared.

That's what I mean by "not thinking" ... it means having a game that so based upon what's been taught and pounded home during ones development that once in a game, the right reaction just come as second nature. No thinking required, just a reaction based on fundamentals, technique and discipline.

Amare NEVER got that under D'Antoni. He was little more than a finisher like Spida or someone from the And-1 Mixtape Tour. D'Antoni's entire offense was opportunistic. It wasn't based upon anything solid. It's the reason why a good defensive team could stifle them enough to evoke frustrated forcing of shots or drives, many of which resulted in an offensive foul by Amare.

As a competitor, all Amare knows is "GO!" If you add any hitch to his go, you increase the risk of mistakes exponentially. If Amare's reactions aren't based upon right aspects of the game, or your philosophy makes him question his reaction for even a split-second, or you lack of a foundation makes him force the issue, you're going to see him make/commit boneheaded mistakes, unnecessary defensive and silly offensive fouls.

Why I think Amare's attitude now is so important is not only is he speaking with excitement on the topic of defense, but he may very well have the support system in place to better his situation through the development of fundamentals, technique, positing, patience and discipline.

Of course it's not going to come together all at once, but Amare, despite being a loudmouth and a bit of an airhead, is a player who's proven to pick up on aspects of the game very quickly when they are properly taught and/or points of emphasis.

Porter and his staff may be the fuel for Amare's fire.

Sorry, but you don't get it. The best players in the history of the NBA have been thinkers who are great at analyzing the game and figuring out ways to constantly improve-- Bill Russell revolutionizing defense, Magic figuring out how to make everybody else better, Jordan using every aspect of the game to find a way to win. To say Amare didn't play good defense for four years because his coach wasn't good is the weakest cop out imaginable. No truly great player would allow a weakness to flourish in his game for so long, wasting critical years and getting repeatedly knocked out of the playoffs-- if Amare was a better and smarter player he would have found a way to improve. He didn't. Again, all of your excuses about "instinct" and your euphemisms point to one conclusion: he's not terribly bright. Again, if you don't understand that with 4 fouls early in the third quarter, you've got to stop taking unnecessary risks that will hurt your team, you are just plain stupid. Call it instinctual, natural, "no thinking required", call it whatever you like-- it's still stupid. There's a very good chance that Amare will never be lucky enough to have a team as great as he did in 2006 and 2007, with an mvp point guard, a super versatile and talented combo forward, a defensive minded SG, and a 6th man of the year playing alongside him. This is arguably more talent than Tim Duncan has ever had beside him. It's quite possible that Amare's lack of interest in defense for four long years not only cost him and his teammates a ring or two, but was also one of the central reasons for the strife within the Phoenix organization, and the reason Marion wanted to leave, and the reason they are now in decline.

[sprrs]

You're simply not getting it. Amare is an instinctual player. He is a competitor. He contests any shot he can. Problem is most times it came too late. I wonder how much of this issue stems from a scheme that constantly found him in bad defensive positioning from the swarming style he attempted to play and an underlying philosophy of just let 'em score, which are on D'Antoni.

If you remember him as a prospect out of high school, he was generally regarded a defensive player with offensive upside. I don't think he was a poor defender his rookie year. Limited, but not poor. His disinterest conveniently arrives around the same time D'Antoni's system did.

Again, I'm not blaming D'Antoni entirely. I think the two's attitudes just didn't mesh with regards to defense, so I'm excited to see a different coach get a shot.

He will be given the benefit of the doubt, but it has to be stated that it seems he claims to step up defensively every year...

[JMarkJohns]

Sorry, but you don't get it. The best players in the history of the NBA have been thinkers who are great at analyzing the game and figuring out ways to constantly improve-- Bill Russell revolutionizing defense, Magic figuring out how to make everybody else better, Jordan using every aspect of the game to find a way to win. To say Amare didn't play good defense for four years because his coach wasn't good is the weakest cop out imaginable. No truly great player would allow a weakness to flourish in his game for so long, wasting critical years and getting repeatedly knocked out of the playoffs-- if Amare was a better and smarter player he would have found a way to improve. He didn't. Again, all of your excuses about "instinct" and your euphemisms point to one conclusion: he's not terribly bright. Again, if you don't understand that with 4 fouls early in the third quarter, you've got to stop taking unnecessary risks that will hurt your team, you are just plain stupid. Call it instinctual, natural, "no thinking required", call it whatever you like-- it's still stupid. There's a very good chance that Amare will never be lucky enough to have a team as great as he did in 2006 and 2007, with an mvp point guard, a super versatile and talented combo forward, a defensive minded SG, and a 6th man of the year playing alongside him. This is arguably more talent than Tim Duncan has ever had beside him. It's quite possible that Amare's lack of interest in defense for four long years not only cost him and his teammates a ring or two, but was also one of the central reasons for the strife within the Phoenix organization, and the reason Marion wanted to leave, and the reason they are now in decline.

You're so wrong it's almost unbearable. In a game as quick as basketball, you can't stop to think. The best players just do. Their reactions are based upon pounded-home principles of technique, positioning, decion-making and timing that were developed through constant practices and great teaching. When a situation arose within a game, they didn't stop play and decide what to do, they just did based on a played out scenerio that had been gone over and over to the point where it was second nature. This "instinctual" style of play doesn't allow for a defense to make up ground/time through your hesitation. It doesn't allow for an offense to gain any ground/time through your hesitation.

So...

What parts of: 1. D'Antoni NEVER ran developmental practices, 2. D'Antoni never emphasized on-ball defense, 3. D'Antoni's lone defensive scheme was a chaotic swamring defense that relied almost exclusively upon athleticism and consistantly found rotating players out of defensive position and rebounding positions down low, 4. That when his scheme led to such, D'Antoni's point of emphasis was "just give them the basket," 5. that from such D'Antoni never held his players accountable for their defensive lapses so long as they made good on offense, and 6. He's admitting to being more of a motivating coach than Xs and Os type, which left huge, undeveloped holes in players' games, that when combined with a lack of instruction, discipline, fundamentals, structure, positioning, timing and his chaotic, no-accountability style of defense made many of his players worse for the wear.

D'Antoni's idea of defense was basically swarm down low, force a pass to and thus a shot attempt from the perimeter which yields long rebounds, get the rebound on the run, score in seven seconds.

If this failed, D'Antoni had nothing else, and because his inability/unwillingness/stupidity up to that point had left most of his players flawed on that end of the floor, truly good teams would take full advantage.

Every player you mentioned in your response had an all-time great coach over him. Russell had Auerbach, Magic had Riley, Jordan had Jackson, Duncan had Pops...

Are you going to place D'Antoni in their level?

Of course not.

But I'm not done...

Now ask yourself, "Why not?!"

If you're truly honest you'll cite reasons that line up with my listed faults of D'Antoni.

When your coach is that flawed on defense, how the hell can you sit and say that he has no responsibility for the flaws of his most talented player?

And, just for emphasis sake since you keep failing to grasp this very well stated opinion of mine... I don't blame D'Antoni entirely. Amare has played some very uninspired, mistake-addled defense under D'Antoni, much of it based on his own actions/lack of passion. Where D'Antoni fits in is his faults as a talent developer and coach were an very unfortunate match with Stoudemire's faults as a player.

I say each is 50% responsible for Amare's defense. D'Antoni for providing the example of never caring nor holding those who didn't care accountable, Amare for then never caring and never holding himself accountable.

[RonMexico]

Easy Spur fan response is always "Amare is dumb. Duncan is smart."

Yet, the Spurs have one of the most instinctual players of all time in Manu Ginobili and one of the best strategists in Gregg Popovich. It's no surprise that whenever the Spurs lose, a mountain of "trade Manu" or "fire Pop" or "fuck smallball" threads open up in the Spurs forum.

For some reason, Suns fans aren't afforded the same criticism of their former coach and talented, yet still raw, 25-year-old power forward.

[JMarkJohns]

It's really just as simple as this... a good basketball coach develops players, then encorporates schemes that his players can succeed in, and then holds his players accountable to play up to their ability and within the system.

You can make a very indicting argument against D'Atoni that he failed in every area mentioned. Whether or not it's his fault that Amare never developed the necessary instincts to become a good defender, his failings above never forced Amare to develop, to change, or to be accountable for his own failings.

[Tully365]

I agree that D'Antoni is not a good coach, and that he bares some of the responsiblilty for not emphasizing defense, but a great player doesn't let 4 years slip away while every sportscaster, sportswriter, scout, coach, fan and player in America is regularly talking about how poor a defensive player he is. Your obsession with "instinct" neglects to consider that for the 16 or so hours a day a players is not on the court, the way he gets better is to think about his game and figure out ways to improve. Jordan was famous for this: one summer, he'd spend weeks only using his weaker hand, and only driving to his weaker side in an effort to become a nearly ambidextrous player. Early on, critics said MJ wasn't a great outside shooter, so he worked on that mercilessly and became a very good outside shooter. There are a million examples. I understand you like Amare, but your own posts repeatedly label him "not a thinker", "boneheaded", "uninspired", "disinterested".... these are not the qualities of a person with the instinctual passion to win basketball games-- instinct in Mother Nature drives animals to relentlessly win, not to sit back and let their weaknesses flourish. Any animal in nature with the defensive instincts of Amare would have long ago been passed through the digestive system of a more adaptive animal and been excreted onto the dirt. Sort of like the Suns have in every playoff series against the Spurs the last five years.

I also find it funny that suddenly I'm seeing Phoenix fans by the droves posting critical comments about D'Antoni! I just spent the last five years debating Suns' fans and listening to them say that his high scoring lightning fast smallball was the most brilliant innovation in the history of basketball, and that I was a fool for praising the slow, boring, outdated, low TV ratings producing style of Pop, Duncan, and the Spurs. So you now agree that the Suns have approached the game badly the whole time?

[JMarkJohns]

I agree that D'Antoni is not a good coach, and that he bares some of the responsiblilty for not emphasizing defense, but a great player doesn't let 4 years slip away while every sportscaster, sportswriter, scout, coach, fan and player in America is regularly talking about how poor a defensive player he is. Your obsession with "instinct" neglects to consider that for the 16 or so hours a day a players is not on the court, the way he gets better is to think about his game and figure out ways to improve. Jordan was famous for this: one summer, he'd spend weeks only using his weaker hand, and only driving to his weaker side in an effort to become a nearly ambidextrous player. Early on, critics said MJ wasn't a great outside shooter, so he worked on that mercilessly and became a very good outside shooter. There are a million examples. I understand you like Amare, but your own posts repeatedly label him "not a thinker", "boneheaded", "uninspired", "disinterested".... these are not the qualities of a person with the instinctual passion to win basketball games-- instinct in Mother Nature drives animals to relentlessly win, not to sit back and let their weaknesses flourish. Any animal in nature with the defensive instincts of Amare would have long ago been passed through the digestive system of a more adaptive animal and been excreted onto the dirt. Sort of like the Suns have in every playoff series against the Spurs the last five years.

We'll have to agree to disagree, since I'm to stubborn to yield on a shared blame vs. sole blame, and you're too incapable or unwilling to see points that several fans from several teams have accepted from a reasonable response to exact account.


I also find it funny that suddenly I'm seeing Phoenix fans by the droves posting critical comments about D'Antoni! I just spent the last five years debating Suns' fans and listening to them say that his high scoring lightning fast smallball was the most brilliant innovation in the history of basketball, and that I was a fool for praising the slow, boring, outdated, low TV ratings producing style of Pop, Duncan, and the Spurs. So you now agree that the Suns have approached the game badly the whole time?

Where did you debate? Where is very important in the conversation. Most homer sites are chalk full of wishy washy fanatics who'll buy and sell players/coaches as fast as they make posts.

If you care to, you can do an advanced search of my moniker and "Mike D'Antoni" and read up on my opinions of his ability. If there was ever a time I thought him brilliant, it was so long ago that I can't remember it. More than likely I always conceded his ability to maximize offensive skills in his players, but also cited a similar list to those already given as to why he'd never succeed the ultimate goal.

D'Antoni is the Mike Martz of the NBA. Good enough to entertain the masses, win over the public and make a splashy showing almost every year, but too dumb or too stubborn to admit his system based upon chaotic play and finesse can't win.

Everything the media has ever confronted D'Antoni with he's attemped to extremes, and every time he's failed.

Regardless of record, his time in Phoenix was a joke. You spoke of the talent Amare had around him, well, D'Antoni had it under him. He could never beat the best, even when he had the better talent.

To prove what I said about D'Antoni being too dumb or stubborn to change his style in order to succeed, he bolted Phoenix the first chance he got after the ups forced new players for a new style of play upon him. He wouldn't adapt, so he ran.

D'Antoni is nothing more than a blowhard who struck it rich, then frittered away the primes of his best players by being unreasonable in practice, approach and application.

[RonMexico]

I also find it funny that suddenly I'm seeing Phoenix fans by the droves posting critical comments about D'Antoni! I just spent the last five years debating Suns' fans and listening to them say that his high scoring lightning fast smallball was the most brilliant innovation in the history of basketball, and that I was a fool for praising the slow, boring, outdated, low TV ratings producing style of Pop, Duncan, and the Spurs. So you now agree that the Suns have approached the game badly the whole time?

You definitely didn't debate those points with JMark and myself, who have both been critical of D'Antoni and certain players over the last 4 years.

I loved watching the Suns play since 04-05 because it was a breath of fresh air, but once the freshness wore off and the playoff defeats piled up, we got a little restless. It didn't take us long to realize that "let's go guys" and stupid decisions to let Boris Diaw/Leandro Barbosa take key final shots weren't going to add up to playoff wins.

[Red Hawk #21]

People are seriously writing essays about this topic...

[JMarkJohns]

I agree that D'Antoni is not a good coach, and that he bares some of the responsiblilty for not emphasizing defense

Then what the hell are e arguing for? I say he has some responsibility. You say he bears some responsibility.


but a great player doesn't let 4 years slip away while every sportscaster, sportswriter, scout, coach, fan and player in America is regularly talking about how poor a defensive player he is.

Quietly his blocked shots have improved, despite the fact his athleticism has waned a bit in lue of his microfracture surgery. This proves he's developing better timing and possibly positioning and technique in face of declining physical ability. I don't think it's fair to say, or even assume that Amare never attempted to improve. It is fair to say his attempts may not have been embraced by a staff who didn't care about defense one way or the other. It is fair to say that when this occured, maybe Amare got discouraged and stopped caring. It's fair to say that at times in a game Amare appeared apathetic and uninspired.

Perhaps that's because the areas he tried to improve upon were never developed fully and/or properly incorporated into the defensive schemes?

Point is, nobody on any of these boards knows if or how hard Amare worked on aspects of his flaws. All that's known is under D'Antoni and within his system, Amare never showed marked improvement.



Your obsession with "instinct" neglects to consider that for the 16 or so hours a day a players is not on the court, the way he gets better is to think about his game and figure out ways to improve.

I've already addressed this by saying that D'Antoni's point of emphasis with Amare was his offensive versatility. D'Antoni had Amare spending hours developing his offense to the point where he either discouraged, if not limited Amare's own desire/ability to improve his defense, largely because any on-ball or man-to-man defense Amare could improve upon wouldn't fit within D'Antoni's chaos-based, swarming system.


Jordan was famous for this: one summer, he'd spend weeks only using his weaker hand, and only driving to his weaker side in an effort to become a nearly ambidextrous player. Early on, critics said MJ wasn't a great outside shooter, so he worked on that mercilessly and became a very good outside shooter. There are a million examples.

Nobody in their right mind is comparing Amare's ethic/drive/ability/passion/determination to Jordan's, so find a more comparable, accurate player to hold Amare accountable to.



I understand you like Amare, but your own posts repeatedly label him "not a thinker", "boneheaded", "uninspired", "disinterested".... these are not the qualities of a person with the instinctual passion to win basketball games-- instinct in Mother Nature drives animals to relentlessly win, not to sit back and let their weaknesses flourish.

You're reading too far into what I'm saying.

When I say "not a thinker" I mean he doesn't stop play to think of the right course of action to take. I mean he simply reacts based upon what he reads in the moment.

When I say "boneheaded" I mean because he hasn't been properly developed in certain areas, that because he lacks a foundation of fundamentals, posititioning, technique and timing, that he can react wrong, thus make mistakes. A player develops in the areas a coach stresses. D'Antoni stressed conditioning and offense. Nothing else.

When I say "uninspired" and "disinterested" I mean his passion for the game, which I don't think you can deny, wasn't funnelled into the proper points of emphasis, allowing a lazy approach to aspects that he's never been held accountable for. A coach is responsible for developing his players ability and skills to fit within a system that will maximize their impact for the overall good of the team. D'Antoni fit Amare to his system, not his system to Amare. In the process, his cookie-cutter approach to player development left just enough offensive skill to make up the cookie, while trimming away the excess and areas of the game D'Antoni didn't care about.



Any animal in nature with the defensive instincts of Amare would have long ago been passed through the digestive system of a more adaptive animal and been excreted onto the dirt. Sort of like the Suns have in every playoff series against the Spurs the last five years.

Silly... This argument completely lets the parents of the animal off the hook for not looking out for the greater good of the pack, for not teaching the necessary defense to the youngins to the point where it became second nature and for not holding the pups accountable for when an individual action put the pack at risk.

[JMarkJohns]

People are seriously writing essays about this topic...

Like I said at the end of my first post in this thread. They are complicated answers to a complicated topic/situation.

The easy responses are just who's responsible for what.

The answers that need a bit more explanation, examination and detail and the whys and tend to run longer.

[Gino]

Like I said at the end of my first post in this thread. They are complicated answers to a complicated topic/situation.

The easy responses are just who's responsible for what.

The answers that need a bit more explanation, examination and detail and the whys and tend to run longer.

Im just not sure Amare has the mental discipline to become an elite defender or rebounder. He's been SAYING the right things for years now, yet he's pretty much the same player, defensively, he was in 04-05. Playing defense is physically and mentally exhausting and I don't think he's ever really commited to defense for longer than a few minute spurts each game.

Shaq is just a horrible role model for him too. Suns should have kept Kurt Thomas.

[JMarkJohns]

And just so it's clear, in no way am I excusing Amare's crappy defense through divying up the blame amongst he and D'Antoni. I'm simply saying that now that D'Antoni is gone, maybe all this new-found excitement and desire for defense will play out better for Amare, and thus hopefully his team.

In all my reiteration and and thoughts on D'Antoni's role and the impact it had on Amare, I didn't want this to get lost.

[Gino]

And just so it's clear, in no way am I excusing Amare's crappy defense through divying up the blame amongst he and D'Antoni. I'm simply saying that now that D'Antoni is gone, maybe all this new-found excitement and desire for defense will play out better for Amare, and thus hopefully his team.

In all my reiteration and and thoughts on D'Antoni's role and the impact it had on Amare, I didn't want this to get lost.

D'Antoni surely didn't help. His "aw shucks, lets just play basketball" mentality was hardly a motivating force.

[JMarkJohns]

He's been SAYING the right things for years now, yet he's pretty much the same player, defensively, he was in 04-05.

This is where D'Antoni's system of defense factors in. If you're always having to run here, then there, then back, you're never in great position for defense, nor able to put a body on someone to box-out and rebound.

In this much, I don't really think it would have mattered how much Amare improved in areas peripheral to this swarming defense, within it, he was always going to find himself out of position for the block, or defense of a passing/driving lane and unable to adequately body-up to be in the best area for rebounding.


Shaq is just a horrible role model for him too. Suns should have kept Kurt Thomas.

I'm not going to argue either of these points. In fact, I was one of the first to say each on this site.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I want Amare to be like Ron only if it means he gets sent home for half a season for slugging a fan. I could picture Raja Bell playing the role of SJax in that scenario. Or Shaq outdoing the entire Pacers squad by killing a whole row of spectators going for a loose ball.

[Tully365]

Any animal in nature with the defensive instincts of Amare would have long ago been passed through the digestive system of a more adaptive animal and been excreted onto the dirt. Sort of like the Suns have in every playoff series against the Spurs the last five years.


You make some good points JMarkJohns. My best friend is a Suns fan and we argue about this shit all the time, though arguing is a little more fun when you take turns paying for every other pitcher of beer. You gotta give me some props on the digestive system/excretion analogy though-- it's one of the better ones I've come up with in recent memory. Thanks for forcing me into it.

btw-- I'm a big fan of Terry Porter. A great choice.

[JMarkJohns]

It's been fun. We seem to have found common ground with point. Your analogy was right on with how things occured, only I still blame the parents of the pup for never takeing the time to do right by the pup. At some point the pup is to blame, but the initial lack of sense that the parents failed to instill certainly contributed to the mistakes made by the pup.

I like Porter, but don't like this team enough to be confident right now. There batch of bad signings, trades and lack of draft picks have made the rotation thin and the player old. That limits Porter too much for him to have the impact desired.

They needed to keep every pick that was traded, every player they gave away along with said picks, and sign/resign the right players. They failed.