NBA Current Top 50: Andrew Bynum (No. 24)

[Allanon]

NBA Top 50: Andrew Bynum (No. 24)
by Tom Ziller
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/09/15/nba-top-50-andrew-bynum-no-24/

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2008/09/andrewbynum-tz-425.jpg

If Andrew Bynum (http://nba.fanhouse.com/tag/AndrewBynum/) is real, you're looking at the only lizard in the league who can crash the Dwight Howard-Greg Oden party of Best Beasts of Tomorrow.

Before February's cruel injury, Bynum lit the galaxy ablaze. The numbers were unspeakable for a 20-year-old: a double-double with two blocks in less than 30 minutes of work. If he's still learning the game and finding his body, the rest of the league is in immense trouble.

Again: what Bynum did last season in 35 games ... no one saw that coming so quickly. Look how his age-20 season compares to these recent young behemoths at the same age.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2008/09/bynumgraph-tz-425.jpg

So, at age 20, Bynum was a better scorer, rebounder and shotblocker than every notable recent big man who was in the league by age 20 ... including Dwight Freaking Howard (http://nba.fanhouse.com/tag/DwightHoward/). And it can be argued Bynum's body was behind Howard and Jefferson at this point -- both those fellows came into the lig built like oxen. Bynum had baby fat and intsy calves last October when he started this mess.

No matter if Lamar Odom (http://nba.fanhouse.com/tag/LamarOdom/), Trevor Ariza, Luke Walton or Vlad Radmanovic start the small forward, Bynum combines with Pau Gasol (http://nba.fanhouse.com/tag/PauGasol/) to create one of the best rebounding lines in the NBA. All those problems competing on the glass against Boston? Gone, just because of Bynum's presence (and its bump of Gasol to his natural PF position). L.A. didn't need scoring help, and Bynum probably won't feature heavily in the offense, barring an injury to Kobe or Gasol. But the chances he gets, he'll convert. And the team certainly should look for him: he won't embarrass himself, with smart moves and a good mind to both protect the ball and find options when the interior gates close.

He's already L.A.'s best defender in the paint. Gasol's too slight, as we learned in June. Odom, while active, has neither the size nor the intuition to hold someone like David West or Tyson Chandler at bay. Bynum may not incite mirages of Bill Russell, but he's a stout, insistent player too proud to let himself be played a doll.

There's a chance Bynum went over his head in the first half of '07-08. There's a chance the injury has set him back a year and he won't keep improving right away. There's a chance Bynum was a breeze of excellence lone gone, replaced by a snake-bitten young curse, pricking Kobe's side is way far more innocent than Shaq did. As a fan of a division rival which thinks itself to be on an upswing, I desperately hope Bynum has already come ripe.

But science says that isn't the case. Get your helmets, Big Men of the NBA. It's gonna be a long decade.

[alamo50]

Are you fukkin' kiddin' me???

[21_Blessings]

Fuck off Portland and bow down to your master, bitches. The NBA is about to get served some A-Bomb.

http://blog.nj.com/netsblast/2007/11/medium_bynummoore.JPG

[Trainwreck2100]

ANDY MUTHERFUKIN BYNUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a

[manufor3]

Just because the guy plays center and is one of the better centers in the league doesn't mean that he has to be a top 25 player does it?

I'm starting to get confused as to what this list is based on. Is it who you would draft today if starting a franchise? Or is it who do you think is the best player heading into the 08-09 season?

There is no doubt Bynum appears to have a bright future but in a big man's case the 36min comparison is drastically misleading. Could Bynum even try to handle 36 minutes a night to get to the numbers that Superman is putting up? Emphatically no, and while I understand that Howard will most certainly be a top 10 player on the list, I don't see how a guy who couldn't handle the rigors of 29 minutes a night over 35 games can be ranked as one of the top 25 best players in the league.

[lefty]

:rollin:rollin

Bynum number 24 ?????????????????????????????

:lmao:lmao:lmao

Whaaaaaaaaat ?

[JamStone]

The list has Bynum better than Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Caron Butler, Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay among others.

[lefty]

About Basketball Contributor Bio - Tom Ziller

Name: Tom Ziller

How You Got Interested in Basketball:
Two words: Duane. Causwell. :lol

What Makes You Qualified to Write About Basketball:
I made business cards.

Anything You Want To Add:
A side salad with ranch, please.

[Reggie Miller]

Premature ejaculation = Ziller's speciality.

I'm not saying that Bynum won't be good. Let's see if he can stay healthy long enough to compile a track record for evaluation.

A significantly above average center is probably more valuable than McGrady, Iverson, Davis, Parker, et ux. in an absolute sense. How many above average big men are there in the game today?

[Allanon]

Just because the guy plays center and is one of the better centers in the league doesn't mean that he has to be a top 25 player does it?

I think position does play a part in the ranking. Bynum does appear to be one of the best Centers. As there aren't that many good Centers, he gets bumped up.



There is no doubt Bynum appears to have a bright future but in a big man's case the 36min comparison is drastically misleading. Could Bynum even try to handle 36 minutes a night to get to the numbers that Superman is putting up? Emphatically no, and while I understand that Howard will most certainly be a top 10 player on the list, I don't see how a guy who couldn't handle the rigors of 29 minutes a night over 35 games can be ranked as one of the top 25 best players in the league.

Bynum seems to handle big minutes pretty well. The game before he got injured, he played 37 minutes with 25 points, 17 rebounds on 77% shooting.

Before his injury he lead the league in Field Goal %, top 10 in blocks, top 5 in rebounds. He really is the most skilled Center right now (his speed is quite a bit better than most centers, footwork taught by Kareem, shooting touch like Yao, with good power). DHo and Yao are still ahead of Bynum but it isn't that much of a gap and a gap that I think he can close this year.

[21_Blessings]

I don't see how a guy who couldn't handle the rigors of 29 minutes a night over 35 games can be ranked as one of the top 25 best players in the league.

Uh, Bynum had a pretty freak injury. It's not like his body just broke down due to wear and tear. Considering he was only 20 Bynum and Lakers took the safe approach with his comeback. No point in rushing him back for the playoffs at the risk of 10 solid years of basketball.

[lefty]

Premature ejaculation = Ziller's speciality.

I'm not saying that Bynum won't be good. Let's see if he can stay healthy long enough to compile a track record for evaluation.

A significantly above average center is probably more valuable than McGrady, Iverson, Davis, Parker, et ux. in an absolute sense. How many above average big men are there in the game today?

+1

[sook]

I think position does play a part in the ranking. Bynum does appear to be one of the best Centers. As there aren't that many good Centers, he gets bumped up.



Bynum seems to handle big minutes pretty well. The game before he got injured, he played 37 minutes with 25 points, 17 rebounds on 77% shooting.

Before his injury he lead the league in Field Goal %, top 10 in blocks, top 5 in rebounds. He really is the most skilled Center right now (his speed is quite a bit better than most centers, footwork taught by Kareem, shooting touch like Yao, with good power). DHo and Yao are still ahead of Bynum but it isn't that much of a gap and a gap that I think he can close this year.

Thats one game buddy, not saying he won't be good either, but you should check Carl Landry's numbers 2 wks into the streak, and after he hurt his ankle he was rendered useless.

The hype this guy gets is unjustifiable by any means.:rolleyes

[Allanon]

Thats one game buddy, not saying he won't be good either, but you should check Carl Landry's numbers 2 wks into the streak, and after he hurt his ankle he was rendered useless.

The hype this guy gets is unjustifiable by any means.:rolleyes

Well we can count a few more games when he played more than 30 minutes as well. I'm not quite sure when Bynum moved to the starting lineup but I believe it was somtime in December.

Jan 6 vs Indy, 34 mins, 23 pts, 13rbds, 73% shooting
Dec 25 vs Suns, 42 mins, 28 pts, 12 rbds, 85% shooting
Dec 23 vs Knicks, 38 mins, 13 pts, 8 rbds, 75% shooting
Dec 21 vs Philly, 36 mins, 24 pts, 11 rbds, 91% shooting

Bynum was still sharing minutes with the starter Kwame Brown so he didn't always get the big minutes.

But when he did get the big minutes, he usually made the most of them. His ridiculously high shooting percentage leads me to believe he doesn't tire out even in the 35+ minute games. His lack of PT was most likely Phil giving more minutes to Kwame Brown.

I like Carl Landry but I don't think he can compare to Bynum's run.

[Tully365]

Uh, Bynum had a pretty freak injury. It's not like his body just broke down due to wear and tear. Considering he was only 20 Bynum and Lakers took the safe approach with his comeback. No point in rushing him back for the playoffs at the risk of 10 solid years of basketball.

I agree with the Lakers' approach to things, but along with their optimism that Bynum has the potential to be a top center in the league, there has to be a serious concern that he is only 20 and has already had 3 knee surgeries, two in the last year and one as a teenager. I'm a basketball fan that never roots for anyone to get injured-- I want games and series to be won by teams at full strength that beat other teams at full strength-- but there's no way the owners, GMs, and coaches of the Lakers and Trailblazers don't lose sleep some nights wondering if their injury prone big men will be able to produce consistently for many years to come, or if the Bowie/Ralph Sampson/Jonathan Bender syndrome will haunt their teams.

[Allanon]

I agree with the Lakers' approach to things, but along with their optimism that Bynum has the potential to be a top center in the league, there has to be a serious concern that he is only 20 and has already had 3 knee surgeries, two in the last year and one as a teenager. I'm a basketball fan that never roots for anyone to get injured-- I want games and series to be won by teams at full strength that beat other teams at full strength-- but there's no way the owners, GMs, and coaches of the Lakers and Trailblazers don't lose sleep some nights wondering if their injury prone big men will be able to produce consistently for many years to come, or if the Bowie/Ralph Sampson/Jonathan Bender syndrome will haunt their teams.

I believe Bynum has had only 1 surgery (the most recent one), the others I don't believe were surgeries but not 100% sure about that. As far as surgeries go, this recent one was a minor one compared to the dreaded "microfracture" surgeries that ruined alot of those careers.

But you're right in that at 20 years old, the last word you want to hear with a player is surgery.

[Reggie Miller]

Big men break down faster, so the concerns people are voicing isn't exactly a case of a lot of smoke with no fire.

[21_Blessings]

I agree with the Lakers' approach to things, but along with their optimism that Bynum has the potential to be a top center in the league, there has to be a serious concern that he is only 20 and has already had 3 knee surgeries, two in the last year and one as a teenager. I'm a basketball fan that never roots for anyone to get injured-- I want games and series to be won by teams at full strength that beat other teams at full strength-- but there's no way the owners, GMs, and coaches of the Lakers and Trailblazers don't lose sleep some nights wondering if their injury prone big men will be able to produce consistently for many years to come, or if the Bowie/Ralph Sampson/Jonathan Bender syndrome will haunt their teams.

Bynum has only had 2 knee surgeries and both weren't 'serious' surgeries like say ACL reconstruction or microfracture.

Where the fuck did you get 3 surgeries from? Bynum got his knee scoped around June this year.

[DPG21920]

Only two surgeries, wow, that does sound better.

[Tully365]

Bynum has only had 2 knee surgeries and both weren't 'serious' surgeries like say ACL reconstruction or microfracture.

Where the fuck did you get 3 surgeries from? Bynum got his knee scoped around June this year.

Uh, sorry if it gets you angry to hear someone talk objectively about a subject... geez, lose your temper much?

I've read before that he had surgery on his knee when he was 13 or 14 years old. Go see a doctor. Maybe get some Xanax.

[Reggie Miller]

Uh, sorry if it gets you angry to hear someone talk objectively about a subject... geez, lose your temper much?

I've read before that he had surgery on his knee when he was 13 or 14 years old. Go see a doctor. Maybe get some Xanax.


I recall that as well.

[JMarkJohns]

I'll buy his per-36 minute production potential is top-25 worthy, but those examined and inflated numbers were produced before Gasol arrived to steal offensive touches and rebounds, if not even minutes. Therefore, there's almost zero likelihood that his ratios will even match those of last year, thus this per-36 minute production potential doesn't really factor into reality. I doubt he gets the shots, the rebounds or the minutes to match last season.

If Bynum averages 12-15 points, 7-8 rebounds and 2 blocks in 25/30 minutes, the Lakers will be lucky.

[21_Blessings]

Uh, sorry if it gets you angry to hear someone talk objectively about a subject... geez, lose your temper much?

I've read before that he had surgery on his knee when he was 13 or 14 years old. Go see a doctor. Maybe get some Xanax.

By talk objectively you mean spout misinformation because thats what you were doing unless you can back that up with a source.

And sorry, the internet doesn't make me angry. Take your own advice about the Xanax though. Just make sure to take the entire bottle coupled with a fifth of Tanqueray No. Ten.

[Reggie Miller]

By talk objectively you mean spout misinformation because thats what you were doing unless you can back that up with a source.

And sorry, the internet doesn't make me angry. Take your own advice about the Xanax though. Just make sure to take the entire bottle coupled with a fifth of Tanqueray No. Ten.



Suck Kobe's dick some more. It's the only thing you are really suited for doing in today's competitive market.

http://www.hoopsfantasy.com/andrew-bynum-surgery-fantasy-impact/

[21_Blessings]

Suck Kobe's dick some more. It's the only thing you are really suited for doing in today's competitive market.

http://www.hoopsfantasy.com/andrew-bynum-surgery-fantasy-impact/

No one sucks Kobe's dick better than Reggie Miller does on TV and radio. Poor guy must of have fell in love after all the times Kobe bent him over during his ringless career. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n5qLQ6ZUKE)

And like I said, two knee surgeries, not three.

[Reggie Miller]

No one sucks Kobe's dick better than Reggie Miller does on TV and radio. Poor guy must of have fell in love after all the times Kobe bent him over during his ringless career. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n5qLQ6ZUKE)

And like I said, two knee surgeries, not three.


Again, I hate to break it to you cretin Laker fans, but I am not the real Reggie Miller. GASP!

[21_Blessings]

Again, I hate to break it to you cretin Laker fans, but I am not the real Reggie Miller. GASP!

No one said you were. So stop projecting your bedtime fantasy to all of us.

[Reggie Miller]

No one said you were. So stop projecting your bedtime fantasy to all of us.


Short-term memory loss and projection: the hallmarks of an abused child.

Don't be afraid. The LAPD are your friends. They will never sodomize you like your step-father. They will take turns.

[dallaskd]

Jefferson >>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

[sook]

Jefferson >>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

thats easily understood.

I rmbr scrolling down to the leaders in categories for asts/points/rbs etc..


I recall seeing Jeffersons name quite often and i think he had a couple of 40 + point games and got a good share of rebounds. The guy is already a monster.

[sook]

i'm going to side with Reggie on this, he's right

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Jefferson >>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

:tu

[baseline bum]

Per minute stats are jokes. Using the same per36 minute metric, Manu Ginobili is almost at Kobe Bryant's level:

Bryant:
Points/36minutes = 26.2
Rebounds/36minutes = 5.8
Assists/36minutes = 5.00
Steals/36minutes = 1.67

Ginobili:
Points/36minutes = 22.0
Rebounds/36minutes = 5.6
Assists/36minutes = 5.22
Steals/36minutes = 1.74

Of course Kobe's significantly better than Manu though, because Bryant is a workhorse who can give you 39 minutes a night at a high level. Manu is great in the 31 minutes he can effectively give, but that's 8 minutes a night less of superstar production.

Same with Bynum when someone is comparing him to a monster like Howard or Jefferson. Bynum's a nice young player with lots of upside, but he hasn't earned the comparisons to Howard nor Jefferson yet.

[sook]

Why t-mac is so low makes no sense to me...


What made me actually puke was the fact he had Melo on top of him?!?!?!? WTF?!?!? Did he watch Melo almost not make the playoffs and get swept?

Then Caron Butler and Bynum on top of him, this guy is complete moron


T-Mac isn't as good as he used to be, but he was playing 60% with no Yao and the one who filled every single role.


top 20ish sounds reasonable

[Allanon]

Jefferson >>>>>>>>>>>> Bynum

Bynum at age 20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson age 20



Per minute stats are jokes. Using the same per36 minute metric, Manu Ginobili is almost at Kobe Bryant's level

It's actually not that much of a joke. If Kobe's the #1 SG in the NBA, DWade is #2 and if Manu actually played 36 minutes he'd probably be #3 or #4.

It's not a 100% accurate comparison but it does give you a very good look at budding players. It doesn't work for bench players who have been in the league for years as once they've settled in, the usually don't have dramatic changes in minutes.

[Allanon]

Why t-mac is so low makes no sense to me...


What made me actually puke was the fact he had Melo on top of him?!?!?!? WTF?!?!? Did he watch Melo almost not make the playoffs and get swept?

Then Caron Butler and Bynum on top of him, this guy is complete moron


T-Mac isn't as good as he used to be, but he was playing 60% with no Yao and the one who filled every single role.


top 20ish sounds reasonable

TMAC gets low scores because of all the injuries. If he was a healthy Superstar, he'd rank in the top 10.

[DPG21920]

TMAC gets low scores because of all the injuries. If he was a healthy Superstar, he'd rank in the top 10.

Its funny that Bynum (who has done nothing) who is coming off an injury can almost crack the top 20, but T-Mac who constantly puts up 20 points a game and leads teams to the playoffs (whether or not they advance) is too injury prone to make it?


Im willing to bet that if the Lakers were to put Bynum on the line for the players that you just named, the trade would get done in record time!!!:toast

The only people on that list that might be traded are Iverson because they want to let him go because of his contract and age, Baron because of the same reasons and Rudy Gay. That is it.

[Allanon]

Its funny that Bynum (who has done nothing) who is coming off an injury can almost crack the top 20, but T-Mac who constantly puts up 20 points a game and leads teams to the playoffs (whether or not they advance) is too injury prone to make it?

Yes, Bynum gets a hall pass because he's 20 and it's his first major injury. T-MAC has chronic injuries whereas Bynum looks vastly more fit than he did last year.



The only people on that list that might be traded are Iverson because they want to let him go because of his contract and age, Baron because of the same reasons and Rudy Gay. That is it.

You always trade for big men. Those guys are good players but at their position, there's a bunch of better players. But at the Center position, even with his aborted season, Bynum looks to be the #3 center in the NBA. Skilled Centers are extremely rare these days. Even the Lakers realize this, that's why they're even considering that 5 year/$80 million extension.

[DPG21920]

So you think the Spurs would trade Tony Parker for him? You must be kidding.

[Reggie Miller]

Yes, Bynum gets a hall pass because he's 20 and it's his first major injury. T-MAC has chronic injuries whereas Bynum looks vastly more fit than he did last year.



You always trade for big men. Those guys are good players but at their position, there's a bunch of better players. But at the Center position, even with his aborted season, Bynum looks to be the #3 center in the NBA. Skilled Centers are extremely rare these days.


I don't know how many times people are going to have to post this.

Big men are rare. An above average big is worth more than an All-Star guard, because there are a few million more people in the world in the talent pool at the position for shooting guard vs. center.

The only issue with Bynum is health. He obviously has the talent and athleticism to be an above average big.

[Allanon]

So you think the Spurs would trade Tony Parker for him? You must be kidding.

Tony Parker's about the only one on that list that would give their team pause before making the trade. Midway through this season, if Bynum is playing the way we all think he will, then yes, the Spurs would do it.

I do think it's a possibility; whereas 2 years ago it would have been NO WAY.

Spurs would consider it because as the Duncan years are ending, Bynum would be a good replacement. I think Bynum, Duncan, Ginobili at this stage is more effective than Duncan, Ginobili, Parker. Duncan/Bynum could pair up much like the DRob/Duncan days as the Admiral got older.

As Reggie Milelr says though, it's all about health. If Bynum's healthy, he'd command a pretty penny in trade.

[Reggie Miller]

So you think the Spurs would trade Tony Parker for him? You must be kidding.

Missing the point. The Spurs don't need Bynum in a cost/benefit analysis, because they have Duncan.

Counterpoint. The Pacers would trade any single player on their roster for Bynum in a heartbeat. If they could somehow unload Tinsley in the process, I would pony up $500 to help defray the travel expenses of his posse.

[DPG21920]

Missing the point. The Spurs don't need Bynum in a cost/benefit analysis, because they have Duncan.

Counterpoint. The Pacers would trade any single player on their roster for Bynum in a heartbeat. If they could somehow unload Tinsley in the process, I would pony up $500 to help defray the travel expenses of his posse.

Not missing the point because this is the real world and you have to take teams needs into consideration. Tony Parker is a way better basketball player than Bynum. If your logic was correct and bigs are that important and Bynum was that good then CP3, Deron Williams and Tony Parker would all be traded for him.

The Pacers do not have anyone on their roster that is worth building around with the exception of Granger and even then I do not know.

[DPG21920]

I don't know how many times people are going to have to post this.

Big men are rare. An above average big is worth more than an All-Star guard, because there are a few million more people in the world in the talent pool at the position for shooting guard vs. center.

The only issue with Bynum is health. He obviously has the talent and athleticism to be an above average big.

There is just as many great point guards as bigs in this league. There is just as much mediocre bigs as small guys as well. An above average big, such as Tyson Chandler is not worth more than Dwayne Wade, Billups, Joe Johnson, Chris Paul or Steve Nash who were the all-star point guards this last year. With the exception of a few of them because of age now, they are all much much better than Bynum and no team would trade them for Bynum.

[Ill Cosby]

track record for evaluation.

Exactly what Bynum doesn't have

[DPG21920]

Tony Parker's about the only one on that list that would give their team pause before making the trade. Midway through this season, if Bynum is playing the way we all think he will, then yes, the Spurs would do it.

I do think it's a possibility; whereas 2 years ago it would have been NO WAY.

Spurs would consider it because as the Duncan years are ending, Bynum would be a good replacement. I think Bynum, Duncan, Ginobili at this stage is more effective than Duncan, Ginobili, Parker. Duncan/Bynum could pair up much like the DRob/Duncan days as the Admiral got older.

As Reggie Milelr says though, it's all about health. If Bynum's healthy, he'd command a pretty penny in trade.

What are you talking about. So you think Bynum will be as good as Duncan? There is no way taking Parker out of the equation makes the team better, who will play point guard? Duncan/Robinson both top 50 players ever, Bynum/Duncan is no where close.

Not saying Bynum could not get something valuable in a trade, but you guys are way over valuing him right now by comparing him to Duncan/Robinson or saying the Spurs would trade arguably the 3rd best point guard in the league who is only 26.

[Allanon]

What are you talking about. So you think Bynum will be as good as Duncan? There is no way taking Parker out of the equation makes the team better, who will play point guard? Duncan/Robinson both top 50 players ever, Bynum/Duncan is no where close.

Not saying Bynum could not get something valuable in a trade, but you guys are way over valuing him right now by comparing him to Duncan/Robinson or saying the Spurs would trade arguably the 3rd best point guard in the league who is only 26.

No, Bynum is not as good as Duncan. Will be? Probably not. But Bynum I think will be better than David Robinson. Of course he's not as good as The Admiral now but Duncan could bring him along quickly.

If you have Bynum, Duncan, Ginobili, you could have Smush Parker as a point guard and still be a championship team.

Right now, yes, the idea is laughable but give Bynum some minutes (and if he stays healthy) and he will probably exceed Tony's output this year.

Tony's a great player but at the end of the day, he puts up 18 points, 5 assists. Bynum looks to be a 20+pt/13rbd/3 block Center.

[DPG21920]

And like I said, two knee surgeries, not three.


I believe Bynum has had only 1 surgery (the most recent one), the others I don't believe were surgeries but not 100% sure about that. As far as surgeries go, this recent one was a minor one compared to the dreaded "microfracture" surgeries that ruined alot of those careers.

But you're right in that at 20 years old, the last word you want to hear with a player is surgery.


Big men break down faster, so the concerns people are voicing isn't exactly a case of a lot of smoke with no fire.


I agree with the Lakers' approach to things, but along with their optimism that Bynum has the potential to be a top center in the league, there has to be a serious concern that he is only 20 and has already had 3 knee surgeries, two in the last year and one as a teenager. I'm a basketball fan that never roots for anyone to get injured-- I want games and series to be won by teams at full strength that beat other teams at full strength-- but there's no way the owners, GMs, and coaches of the Lakers and Trailblazers don't lose sleep some nights wondering if their injury prone big men will be able to produce consistently for many years to come, or if the Bowie/Ralph Sampson/Jonathan Bender syndrome will haunt their teams.


Bynum at age 20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson age 20



It's actually not that much of a joke. If Kobe's the #1 SG in the NBA, DWade is #2 and if Manu actually played 36 minutes he'd probably be #3 or #4.

It's not a 100% accurate comparison but it does give you a very good look at budding players. It doesn't work for bench players who have been in the league for years as once they've settled in, the usually don't have dramatic changes in minutes.


TMAC gets low scores because of all the injuries. If he was a healthy Superstar, he'd rank in the top 10.


Yes, Bynum gets a hall pass because he's 20 and it's his first major injury. T-MAC has chronic injuries whereas Bynum looks vastly more fit than he did last year.



You always trade for big men. Those guys are good players but at their position, there's a bunch of better players. But at the Center position, even with his aborted season, Bynum looks to be the #3 center in the NBA. Skilled Centers are extremely rare these days. Even the Lakers realize this, that's why they're even considering that 5 year/$80 million extension.

So he has had multiple surgeries, but it is ok that he is above T-Mac and he is good enough to be traded for the best point guards in the league even though all we have to go off of is half a seasons per 36 minute stats.

Also, who cares if Bynum at age 20 was better than Jefferson, is he better now?

[DPG21920]

No, Bynum is not as good as Duncan. Will be? Probably not. But Bynum I think will be better than David Robinson. Of course he's not as good as The Admiral now but Duncan could bring him along quickly.

If you have Bynum, Duncan, Ginobili, you could have Smush Parker as a point guard and still be a championship team.

Right now, yes, the idea is laughable but give Bynum some minutes (and if he stays healthy) and he will probably exceed Tony's output this year.

You are seriously over valuing Bynum right now and grossly undervaluing what a great point guard does for a team. Smush Parker could not do crap with Bynum, Duncan and Ginobili. I would much rather have Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Oberto than Duncan, Ginobili, Bynum and Smush

[sook]

Its funny that Bynum (who has done nothing) who is coming off an injury can almost crack the top 20, but T-Mac who constantly puts up 20 points a game and leads teams to the playoffs (whether or not they advance) is too injury prone to make it?



The only people on that list that might be traded are Iverson because they want to let him go because of his contract and age, Baron because of the same reasons and Rudy Gay. That is it.

I agree with you 100%, excellent points.

[Allanon]

So he has had multiple surgeries, but it is ok that he is above T-Mac and he is good enough to be traded for the best point guards in the league even though all we have to go off of is half a seasons per 36 minute stats.

Also, who cares if Bynum at age 20 was better than Jefferson, is he better now?

I've never seen the 2 surgery deal, I've heard he had knee problems as a kid. As far as I know, it's 1 surgery and much more minor than the microfracture surgery that Amare had.

CP3, DWill are franchise players so they can't be traded. But Tony Parker is not a franchise player so he could be traded.

No, pre-season, Bynum is < than Jefferson but that's not a fair comparison. Better would be at the end of this season, will Bynum be better than Jefferson and I say yes.

[Allanon]

You are seriously over valuing Bynum right now and grossly undervaluing what a great point guard does for a team. Smush Parker could not do crap with Bynum, Duncan and Ginobili. I would much rather have Duncan, Ginobili, Parker and Oberto than Duncan, Ginobili, Bynum and Smush

Quite possibly over-valuing Bynum because I am basing it on his 1/3 season of work. But if Bynum does this year what he did for that 1/3 season, then I would be under-valuing him in a trade for Tony Parker straight up.

[DPG21920]

I've never seen the 2 surgery deal, I've heard he had knee problems as a kid. As far as I know, it's 1 surgery and much more minor than the microfracture surgery that Amare had.

CP3, DWill are franchise players so they can't be traded. But Tony Parker is not a franchise player so he could be traded.

No, pre-season, Bynum is < than Jefferson but that's not a fair comparison. Better would be at the end of this season, will Bynum be better than Jefferson and I say yes.

How can TP, who is only 26, has 3 rings, an all-star appearance, a finals MVP, who has beaten both D-Will and CP3 in the playoffs not be a franchise player, but those other players are? Just because Tony has Duncan on his team and therefore is not the best player on his team does not make him a non franchise player. When Duncan is done, TP is the franchise.

[tp2021]

Tony Parker, NBA Finals MVP, 3 rings won=#25
Andrew Bynum, NBA Finals spectator, almost 3 seasons played=#24

[DPG21920]

I've never seen the 2 surgery deal, I've heard he had knee problems as a kid. As far as I know, it's 1 surgery and much more minor than the microfracture surgery that Amare had.

CP3, DWill are franchise players so they can't be traded. But Tony Parker is not a franchise player so he could be traded.

No, pre-season, Bynum is < than Jefferson but that's not a fair comparison. Better would be at the end of this season, will Bynum be better than Jefferson and I say yes.

You keep speculating and conveniently dismissing the things that disprove Bynum's worth and abilities. It is always "T-Mac is injured that's why he can not be in the top 20". But when someone brings up Bynum's multiple injuries its that he is not injury prone although he is only 20 and has not had the time to get injured (although he already has been at least once that we know of) so he gets a pass.

Then you say it is not fair that Bynum be compared to Jefferson or others now (although we live in the now) and that he can only be compared in the future where you think he will be better than David Robinson.

[sook]

TP is 26 WTF?!?!?!? Could someone please tell me how old he was when he got drafted?


He has always been one of my fav players but i have to say TP should be in the top 15 especially for being finals MVP, the highest honor one could achieve.

[DPG21920]

He got drafted in 2001 when he was 19

[Allanon]

You keep speculating and conveniently dismissing the things that disprove Bynum's worth and abilities. It is always "T-Mac is injured that's why he can not be in the top 20". But when someone brings up Bynum's multiple injuries its that he is not injury prone although he is only 20 and has not had the time to get injured (although he already has been at least once that we know of) so he gets a pass.

Then you say it is not fair that Bynum be compared to Jefferson or others now (although we live in the now) and that he can only be compared in the future where you think he will be better than David Robinson.

Multiple injuries in his life but in his NBA days, 1 injury in 3 years is pretty good actually. I'm sure plenty of NBA players got injured when they were 13 years old, I don't think those injuries count.

T-Mac injuries are just counting his injuries in the 9 years in the NBA so he's already been labeled.

As for comparing now and in the future, Al Jefferson had a full breakout season, while Bynum only had 1/3 of a season so it's not a fair comparison.

But given a full season, yes, I think he'll be better than Al Jefferson.

Tony Parker isn't a franchise player because Duncan is. Tony's stats just aren't good enough to be a franchise player. And you can't have two franchise players on the same team so that makes Tony expendable. Is Tony Parker being groomed to be the franchise player for the Spurs? If yes, I think that is a mistake.

[nhan]

Multiple injuries in his life but in his NBA days, 1 injury in 3 years is pretty good actually. I'm sure plenty of NBA players got injured when they were 13 years old, I don't think those injuries count.

T-Mac injuries are just counting his injuries in the 9 years in the NBA so he's already been labeled.

As for comparing now and in the future, Al Jefferson had a full breakout season, while Bynum only had 1/3 of a season so it's not a fair comparison.

But given a full season, yes, I think he'll be better than Al Jefferson.

Tony Parker isn't a franchise player because Duncan is. Tony's stats just aren't good enough to be a franchise player. And you can't have two franchise players on the same team so that makes Tony expendable. Is Tony Parker being groomed to be the franchise player for the Spurs? If yes, I think that is a mistake.

Injuries dont count when you're a kid? So when you enter the NBA, all of a sudden your body becomes new and fresh?

I can't believe you're actually defending Bynum's 24th spot on the NBA's Best Players list...

And 1 injury every 3 years is good? So if Bynum is out every 3rd season for 2/3 of the season plus the playoffs that's good? LOL

[Allanon]

Injuries dont count when you're a kid? So when you enter the NBA, all of a sudden your body becomes new and fresh?
It doesn't count when you're a kid because everybody gets injured when they were a kid...I mean he was 13 years old. So if a player gets injured when he was 13 years old and then injured again 7 years later in the Pros that is relevant?



I can't believe you're actually defending Bynum's 24th spot on the NBA's Best Players list...
He's the 3rd best Center in the NBA, why wouldn't he be in the 24th spot?



And 1 injury every 3 years is good? So if Bynum is out every 3rd season for 2/3 of the season plus the playoffs that's good? LOL
I think you don't know how to read . I said "1 injury out of 3 years is good", you made up the 2/3 of the season in your head. When was the last time Duncan or Tony Parker or Manu injury free for 3 years in a row?

[nhan]

It doesn't count when you're a kid because everybody gets injured when they were a kid...I mean he was 13 years old.


He's the 3rd best Center in the NBA, why wouldn't he be in the 24th spot?


I think you don't know how to read. I said 1 injury out of 3 years is good, you made up the 2/3 of the season in your head. When was the last time Duncan or Tony Parker or Manu injury free for 3 years in a row?

Bynum ahead of Tony Parker? WTF...Bynum has played at a good, but not a great level for 1/3 of a season. Tony Parker has got 3 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All-star appearences. Bynum has um...nothing. Nothing but this so-called potential.

Well Bynum's injury took him out for 2/3 of the season. I didn't make that up in my head. Well until last year, Duncan, Parker, and Manu were all relatively injury-free.

[Allanon]

Bynum ahead of Tony Parker? WTF...Bynum has played at a good, but not a great level for 1/3 of a season. Tony Parker has got 3 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All-star appearences. Bynum has um...nothing. Nothing but this so-called potential.

Well Bynum's injury took him out for 2/3 of the season. I didn't make that up in my head. Well until last year, Duncan, Parker, and Manu were all relatively injury-free.

Bynum's 1/3 of the season was great, not just good. He dominated several games after he got the starting job. Kobe was the one that said the Lakers were Championship material because of Bynum.

Tony Parker's last ring was 2 years ago. Al Jefferson sucked 2 years ago, Lakers were a 1st round team, KG was in Minnesota...etc.

There's no knock on Tony, he's playing a much more competitive position. Look around the NBA, there aren't any Centers who can stop Bynum outside of Yao and DHo. Bynum already thrashed guys like Kaman, Ratliff, Bogut, Amare (as a Center) etc. This is why good Centers are so valuable....there aren't any around.

[N4th4n]

He has only been good for like 30 games! stop blowing you wad! Jerome fucking James had a fantastic 20 games for the Sonics 4 years ago. Look how good he turned out

[Allanon]

He has only been good for like 30 games! stop blowing you wad! Jerome fucking James had a fantastic 20 games for the Sonics 4 years ago. Look how good he turned out

Amaré is still wiping off Bynum's spew from the Christmas day game, I can see your anger. :D

[nhan]

Tony Parker's last ring was 2 years ago. Al Jefferson sucked 2 years ago, Lakers were a 1st round team, KG was in Minnesota...etc.

Kobe's last ring was with Shaq 6 years ago. What's your point?

Of course there's no knock on Tony. There's just some dick-loving Laker fans who think Bynum is going to be better than David Robinson when the guy hasn't even played a full season yet.

And the point about you can't have two franchise players on the same team? Kobe and Shaq, I'm pretty sure were two franchise players.

[Allanon]

Kobe's last ring was with Shaq 6 years ago. What's your point?

Of course there's no knock on Tony. There's just some dick-loving Laker fans who think Bynum is going to be better than David Robinson when the guy hasn't even played a full season yet.

You can deny and live in your own little world all you want, most of the real world already knows about Bynum. Feel free to come along later and rub Bynum's nob....just more "I told you so" for me.



And the point about you can't have two franchise players on the same team? Kobe and Shaq, I'm pretty sure were two franchise players.

And we all see how that turned out. Spur fans are always quick pointing out that Kobe was Shaq's sidekick (just like you pointed out just now), that is not the franchise...he was supposedly Robin to Batman.

[DPG21920]

You can deny and live in your own little world all you want, most of the real world already knows about Bynum. Feel free to come along later and rub Bynum's nob....just more "I told you so" for me.



And we all see how that turned out. Spur fans are always quick pointing out that Kobe was Shaq's sidekick (just like you pointed out just now), that is not the franchise...he was supposedly Robin to Batman.

Ya, a 3 peat happened.

[DPG21920]

The real world knows who Bynum is, they do not know what he can do. But evidently you think:

a) The Lakers will win 70 games or possibly more and surpass the greatest single season record of all time by the Bulls.

b) That Bynum will be better than a NBA's 50 greatest player, league MVP, arguably a top 5 center of all time and 2 time NBA champion David Robinson.

c) That his injury(s) do not count, but other players injuries do.

[DPG21920]

It is pretty clear that although Kobe is a franchise player, that Shaq was more dominant. There are plenty of franchise players that do not win titles, that does not mean they are not great or franchise players: Barkley, Malone....

[Allanon]

The real world knows who Bynum is, they do not know what he can do. But evidently you think:

a) The Lakers will win 70 games or possibly more and surpass the greatest single season record of all time by the Bulls.
Yes



b) That Bynum will be better than a NBA's 50 greatest player, league MVP, arguably a top 5 center of all time and 2 time NBA champion David Robinson.
Possibly, Bynum still has 15 more years to go in the NBA, who's to say no?



c) That his injury(s) do not count, but other players injuries do.
His injury at 13 years old doesn't count and it doesn't count for any other player either. You count Bynum's injury at 13 years old when you say "Bynum has had multiple injuries"?



It is pretty clear that although Kobe is a franchise player, that Shaq was more dominant. There are plenty of franchise players that do not win titles, that does not mean they are not great or franchise players: Barkley, Malone....
Kobe would never have been the franchise player as long as Shaq was around. And franchise point guards don't do 18 points and 5 assists like Tony Parker does...it's just not enough to build a franchise around.

[z0sa]

Wow, Bynum at 24 is a travesty.

Almost as bad as that max contract.

[DPG21920]

Yes


Possibly, Bynum still has 15 more years to go in the NBA, who's to say no?


His injury at 13 years old doesn't count and it doesn't count for any other player either. You count Bynum's injury at 13 years old when you say "Bynum has had multiple injuries"?


Kobe would never have been the franchise player as long as Shaq was around. And franchise point guards don't do 18 points and 5 assists like Tony Parker does...it's just not enough to build a franchise around.

So if a kid tears his acl or something or has a serious bone break, that does not come into play later on in life? We all know kids get injured (scratches, stitches, and maybe sprains or breaks) but some injuries are serious.

Who cares if Tony puts up 18 and 5. The Spurs play at an extremely slow pace and share the ball, they have 3 guys that average around 20 points per game. Tony would have a lot more assists if the Spurs did not move the ball so well. Often Tony gives the ball inside to Tim, then Tim takes his time, dribble, dribble then shoot and no assist for Tony. If Tony was about stats he could easily average 25 and 8

[Allanon]

So if a kid tears his acl or something or has a serious bone break, that does not come into play later on in life? We all know kids get injured (scratches, stitches, and maybe sprains or breaks) but some injuries are serious.

No it does not for NBA players. If it was that serious as a 13 year old kid, he wouldn't have made it to the NBA to begin with.



Who cares if Tony puts up 18 and 5. The Spurs play at an extremely slow pace and share the ball, they have 3 guys that average around 20 points per game. Tony would have a lot more assists if the Spurs did not move the ball so well. Often Tony gives the ball inside to Tim, then Tim takes his time, dribble, dribble then shoot and no assist for Tony. If Tony was about stats he could easily average 25 and 8

If you're all for Tony Parker as the Franchise after Duncan leaves, more power to you. I just don't think the Spurs will be champions during that era.

[DPG21920]

If you are a great athlete, you can overcome injuries and compete at a high level. It just puts you at risk for other injuries. The fact that Bynum was thought to be out 8 weeks and then never returned is not a great sign. Given, they got Pau and they could afford to rest him, why did it take so much longer to get him back?

But when Kobe is done you think Bynum can carry a team to a title? So Parker no, but Bynum yes? It would all depend on who you put around him.

[DPG21920]

You do realize that with all that you are implying about next years Lakers, that you are essentially putting them in the conversation of "greatest team" ever. Is that what you are saying?

[Allanon]

If you are a great athlete, you can overcome injuries and compete at a high level. It just puts you at risk for other injuries. The fact that Bynum was thought to be out 8 weeks and then never returned is not a great sign. Given, they got Pau and they could afford to rest him, why did it take so much longer to get him back?
Nah, kids who suffer major injuries (like a torn ACL) at 13 don't make it to the NBA. They wouldn't be a star in high school with a messed up leg. Not being a star in high school, they wouldn't be recruited into college, and from college recruited into the NBA. It's a cause and effect thing.



But when Kobe is done you think Bynum can carry a team to a title? So Parker no, but Bynum yes? It would all depend on who you put around him.
Yes, I think Bynum has the skills to carry a franchise but it's too early to say. It does help alot over Parker that he's a center. I would never build a franchise around Parker right now. 2 years ago yes, I would have considered it. I think it would be crazy for the Spurs to build around Tony when Duncan's done.



You do realize that with all that you are implying about next years Lakers, that you are essentially putting them in the conversation of "greatest team" ever. Is that what you are saying?
Yes, perhaps one of the best regular season teams ever...the playoffs are always volatile. If they do get 70+ and win the championship, yes, they would be one of the greatest single season teams. If they only win 66-69 then no.

[DPG21920]

So no athlete has had an injury (bad one) as a kid to become a pro?

So why build around CP3 or D-Will or Nash? They are not bigs. It does not matter if Bynum is a big or not, good players are good players. A good point guard is just as valuable as a good big now. That is why you see teams building around point guards now. And do not give me that propaganda that there are more "great point guards" than "great bigs". It is just not true. If you want to rank the franchise point guards versus the franchise bigs, there are more bigs. So why are teams drafting and building around point guards now?

That is not to say bigs are not valuable, but it is not like it used to be. It takes two to tango. More and more there is a shift to the NBA being a guard dominated league.

[DPG21920]

My professors tell me that anyone that frames their arguments as absolutes are never right and that is the only thing that is 100%.

[Allanon]

So no athlete has had an injury (bad one) as a kid to become a pro?
I can't think of any in the NBA, can you? The NBA is much less forgiving than other pro sports because there are only 450 player slots total.




So why build around CP3 or D-Will or Nash?

Because there are no franchise Centers to build around. :) Like if you had a chance to build a franchise on these guys in their prime.... CP3, DWill, John Stockton, prime time Jason Kidd, Duncan, or < insert great point guard here> who would you choose?



A good point guard is just as valuable as a good big now. That is why you see teams building around point guards now. And do not give me that propaganda that there are more "great point guards" than "great bigs". It is just not true. If you want to rank the franchise point guards versus the franchise bigs, there are more bigs. So why are teams drafting and building around point guards now?

Again, because there aren't enough quality big men to build around so you go with the point guard.


More and more there is a shift to the NBA being a guard dominated league.
Because there are no franchise quality bigs to build around. A skilled Center is so damn rare these days.

Look at all the franchise level bigs out there, they all have the team built around them. Teams that are dominated by point guards don't have a great big man. Teams that have both great guard and great big man are dominated by the big man (ie Duncan, Dirk)

[DPG21920]

What are you talking about? Name the point guards that you think are franchise level and the most skilled. Then name the bigs.

You keep undervaluing the truly great point guards because you think that bigs are so much better, then you overvalue the bigs. There are plenty of bigs in this league that are very good. If you are talking about the absolute elite, then there are a few. Same with guards. People aren't just taking the Rafer Alston's of the league and building around them.

[DPG21920]

I can't think of any in the NBA, can you? The NBA is much less forgiving than other pro sports because there are only 450 player slots total.

Not off the top of my head, but I am sure that there is someone.


Because there are no franchise Centers to build around. :) Like if you had a chance to build a franchise on these guys in their prime.... CP3, DWill, John Stockton, prime time Jason Kidd, Duncan, or < insert great point guard here> who would you choose?

Duncan just so happens to be the best player on that list. There are plenty of guards to build around.





Because there are no franchise quality bigs to build around. A skilled Center is so damn rare these days.

Truly skilled point guards are rare, there are a lot of good ones, but not franchise. Just like bigs.


Look at all the franchise level bigs out there, they all have the team built around them. Teams that are dominated by point guards don't have a great big man. Teams that have both great guard and great big man are dominated by the big man (ie Duncan, Dirk)

So you are saying Bynum will dominate and not Kobe?

[Allanon]

What are you talking about? Name the point guards that you think are franchise level and the most skilled. Then name the bigs.

Franchise point guards I think are only CP3, Deron Williams. There aren't any other point guards good enough to build a franchise around. Centers you have two so far Yao & DHo. Power Forwards there are quite a few Duncan, Jefferson, Brand, etc.



You keep undervaluing the truly great point guards because you think that bigs are so much better, then you overvalue the bigs. There are plenty of bigs in this league that are very good. If you are talking about the absolute elite, then there are a few. Same with guards. People aren't just taking the Rafer Alston's of the league and building around them.

I don't undervalue point guards, I just don't think they can affect a franchise like a big man can. Having a great point guard is over-rated, it's much more important to have a great big man. Look at all the past NBA champions, how many were won by teams with franchise point guards?

For example,

Oden (yes, it's no longer Brandon Roy's team) will take his team to new heights in his first year, Derrick Rose will not.

If you had a chance to draft Oden or Derrick Rose, who would you have chosen?

[DPG21920]

This debate just has so many layers and has veered off. You are entitled to your opinion, but I just think everything with Bynum is premature. I also think there are just as many good bigs as there are guards (pg's).

Yao, Howard, Jefferson, Kaman, Chandler, Biedrins, Bynum, Camby

CP3, D-Will, Parker, Nash, Kidd, Baron, Billups, Miller, Calderon

That is just true pgs's vs true centers. If you want to go to Power Fowards vs Shooting Guards as well, it would not really matter. You can see the list is really not that skewed. There is a pretty even amount of starters at both positions at equal skill levels.

[DPG21920]

You are limiting the argument to only point guards, but including Power Forwards and Centers. If you want to include other guards (Jordan, Wade, Kobe...) then the list becomes more even. You cannot have one without the other and a great point guard will do just as much as a great big. The most dominant players of all time are probably bigs, but guards are dominating now because they are the best players in the game, not because lack of bigs. I would of chosen Oden, because he is going to be a defensive beast if healthy and that is what I value.

[Reggie Miller]

This debate just has so many layers and has veered off. You are entitled to your opinion, but I just think everything with Bynum is premature. I also think there are just as many good bigs as there are guards (pg's).

Yao, Howard, Jefferson, Kaman, Chandler, Biedrins, Bynum, Camby

CP3, D-Will, Parker, Nash, Kidd, Baron, Billups, Miller, Calderon

That is just true pgs's vs true centers. If you want to go to Power Fowards vs Shooting Guards as well, it would not really matter. You can see the list is really not that skewed. There is a pretty even amount of starters at both positions at equal skill levels.


You are your own worst enemy.

How many of the centers that you have listed have both a complete offensive and defensive skill set for the position? By my count, maybe one (Yao Ming). These are not "good" bigs; they just happen to be a little bit better than the absolute dreck other teams are trotting out there at the moment.

How many centers of the late 1980s through the 1990s had both skill sets? A LOT. Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, young Alonzo Mourning, Shaq*, etc., etc. Think about it: You could make a strong argument that Rik Smits would be an elite center in today's league. Rik Fucking Smits!

When Dikembe Mutumbo first came into the NBA, he had no offensive ability whatsoever. There is such a dearth of talent at the center position that his elderly ass still has a job seventeen years later. I realize that he is supposed to be one of the great defensive centers of all time. Still, Mutumbo has been able to get away without learning a single low-post offensive move for seventeen years, precisely because he can't be easily replaced due to his height.

How many guards do think would have stuck in the NBA if they hadn't worked on their offensive skills after draft day?

* Shaq has never really been a defensive stalwart, but he blocked a lot more shots in his younger days. Even if he isn't a great defender, he is so damn big that he changes shots anyway.

[DPG21920]

You are your own worst enemy.

How many of the centers that you have listed have both a complete offensive and defensive skill set for the position? By my count, maybe one (Yao Ming). These are not "good" bigs; they just happen to be a little bit better than the absolute dreck other teams are trotting out there at the moment.

How many centers of the late 1980s through the 1990s had both skill sets? A LOT. Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, young Alonzo Mourning, Shaq*, etc., etc. Think about it: You could make a strong argument that Rik Smits would be an elite center in today's league. Rik Fucking Smits!

When Dikembe Mutumbo first came into the NBA, he had no offensive ability whatsoever. There is such a dearth of talent at the center position that his elderly ass still has a job seventeen years later. I realize that he is supposed to be one of the great defensive centers of all time. Still, Mutumbo has been able to get away without learning a single low-post offensive move for seventeen years, precisely because he can't be easily replaced due to his height.

How many guards do think would have stuck in the NBA if they hadn't worked on their offensive skills after draft day?

* Shaq has never really been a defensive stalwart, but he blocked a lot more shots in his younger days. Even if he isn't a great defender, he is so damn big that he changes shots anyway.

There are plenty of guards who are defensively challenged on that list, they get backed down and cannot stop anyone, but they can out score/pass them. How am I my worst enemy when you are naming some of the greatest players of all time and comparing them to people today (Robinson, the Dream, Shaq, Ewing). Of course when you look at that you will say, wowwww, but if I start talking about Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Cousy, Pistol Pete the argument evens out. The fact remains that there are just as many skilled bigs as there are point guards right now and Bynum would not be traded for any of the major ones, especially not Tony Parker.

[ambchang]

Amazing how quickly people forget the reason and results of Juwan Howard signing his $100 million contract.

[DPG21920]

Or Arenas signing his.

[Reggie Miller]

There are plenty of guards who are defensively challenged on that list, they get backed down and cannot stop anyone, but they can out score/pass them. How am I my worst enemy when you are naming some of the greatest players of all time and comparing them to people today (Robinson, the Dream, Shaq, Ewing). Of course when you look at that you will say, wowwww, but if I start talking about Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Cousy, Pistol Pete the argument evens out. The fact remains that there are just as many skilled bigs as there are point guards right now and Bynum would not be traded for any of the major ones, especially not Tony Parker.

Way to distort my entire argument.

Are you seriously saying that Rik Fucking Smits was one of the greatest centers of all time? I'm sure he would be gratified.

In the 1950s-1970s, there was also no shortage of decent players at center. That is, most centers had both an offensive and defensive skill set. In those days, if you had a 6'11" guy who sucked and a 6'8" guy who could ball, your center was the shorter guy.

Undoubtedly, there was a LOT of talent and height at the center position in the late 1980s through the 1990s. This may have led to the dilemma of today. For whatever reason, teams began to think that a center had to be at least 6'10" to even play the position. You began to see a lot of international players and BWSs ("Big White Stiffs") at the position merely because they were tall enough. (For every Sabonis there were multiple one-dimensional players like Bol and Mutumbo.)

You don't seem to be grasping the fact there are literally millions more men in the world capable of playing a guard position in the NBA, as opposed to the tiny percentage of the population tall enough to play either PF or C.

Someone who only plays one end of the floor (if that) is NOT a "skilled big." There are less than a handful of skilled bigs in the NBA today, and most of them are actually power forwards.

[Many PackYao]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2008/09/andrewbynum-tz-425.jpg
Dang, looking at his pic here..I can see a resemblence to Isiah Thomas and the Jackson family!:wow:lol

[manufor3]

TMAC gets low scores because of all the injuries. If he was a healthy Superstar, he'd rank in the top 10.

and bynum get 24 but get injured? your logic makes no sense

[Allanon]

and bynum get 24 but get injured? your logic makes no sense

Bynum has had 1 injury in his 3 years.

TMac has never played 80+games in 1 season during his entire 11 year career.

[DPG21920]

Way to distort my entire argument.

Are you seriously saying that Rik Fucking Smits was one of the greatest centers of all time? I'm sure he would be gratified.

In the 1950s-1970s, there was also no shortage of decent players at center. That is, most centers had both an offensive and defensive skill set. In those days, if you had a 6'11" guy who sucked and a 6'8" guy who could ball, your center was the shorter guy.

Undoubtedly, there was a LOT of talent and height at the center position in the late 1980s through the 1990s. This may have led to the dilemma of today. For whatever reason, teams began to think that a center had to be at least 6'10" to even play the position. You began to see a lot of international players and BWSs ("Big White Stiffs") at the position merely because they were tall enough. (For every Sabonis there were multiple one-dimensional players like Bol and Mutumbo.)

You don't seem to be grasping the fact there are literally millions more men in the world capable of playing a guard position in the NBA, as opposed to the tiny percentage of the population tall enough to play either PF or C.

Someone who only plays one end of the floor (if that) is NOT a "skilled big." There are less than a handful of skilled bigs in the NBA today, and most of them are actually power forwards.

Fail. With how many spots there are available in the league, there is more than enough big men to fill every single spot. There is a lot of one dimensional small players as well.

[Reggie Miller]

Fail. With how many spots there are available in the league, there is more than enough big men to fill every single spot. There is a lot of one dimensional small players as well.

I don't think we are even speaking the same language. Obviously, no NBA team is sending up a white flag to forfeit because they have no one to play center on any given night. I'm talking about the quality of the position.

I have no idea how old you are. I'm not going to be a dick about it and assume blah, blah, blah. My point: traditional basketball wisdom has been that you build around a true center with both skill sets. The ABA era changed this approach because the ABA couldn't lure the skilled bigs into their league. (As always, skilled bigs were too busy going in the first round of the NBA draft.) After the merger, the NBA initially had a shortage of skilled bigs, which led to an opening up of the game, ABA style.

For reasons I don't fully understand myself, NBA teams began to evaluate centers primarily on height and take flyers on big guys who couldn't play. I suspect that the shortage in the talent pool pressured this trend. This is very different from traditional pro basketball (pre-merger), when it was expected that the center was the best or second-best player on the team.

Concrete Examples of the Erosion of the Position: Please list at least two recognized low post moves in the following player's "arsenal:"

1. Dikembe Mutumbo
2. Marcus Camby
3. Ben Wallace

[DPG21920]

I don't think we are even speaking the same language. Obviously, no NBA team is sending up a white flag to forfeit because they have no one to play center on any given night. I'm talking about the quality of the position.

I have no idea how old you are. I'm not going to be a dick about it and assume blah, blah, blah. My point: traditional basketball wisdom has been that you build around a true center with both skill sets. The ABA era changed this approach because the ABA couldn't lure the skilled bigs into their league. (As always, skilled bigs were too busy going in the first round of the NBA draft.) After the merger, the NBA initially had a shortage of skilled bigs, which led to an opening up of the game, ABA style.

For reasons I don't fully understand myself, NBA teams began to evaluate centers primarily on height and take flyers on big guys who couldn't play. I suspect that the shortage in the talent pool pressured this trend. This is very different from traditional pro basketball (pre-merger), when it was expected that the center was the best or second-best player on the team.

Concrete Examples of the Erosion of the Position: Please list at least two recognized low post moves in the following player's "arsenal:"

1. Dikembe Mutumbo
2. Marcus Camby
3. Ben Wallace

I get what you are saying, but I disagree with what it implies, thats all. By listing those players, you are saying they are one dimensional. You are also implying that by % alone, that there are more "small" players to choose from. What that implies is an undervaluing of what great guards do. There is just as much of a dilution of guards with one dimension (usually scoring, or just passing; Gilbert, J-Kidd) that are considered "great" now as well.

[Viva LOS LAKERS!]

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/2384-2/andrew-bynum-tomahawk-dunk-full_getty-71796446ab011_spurs_lakers_8_18_31_pm.jpg

[Reggie Miller]

I get what you are saying, but I disagree with what it implies, thats all. By listing those players, you are saying they are one dimensional. You are also implying that by % alone, that there are more "small" players to choose from. What that implies is an undervaluing of what great guards do. There is just as much of a dilution of guards with one dimension (usually scoring, or just passing; Gilbert, J-Kidd) that are considered "great" now as well.

I won't flat out contradict you, because this is also true. There has been erosion of guard play as well. In the past, all guards were expected to shoot a respectable FT%, pass, have a decent jump shot, and be virtually automatic on set shots. (There are guards in the league today who probably don't know what a set shot is, believe it or not.) The isolations and "slashing" style of the last decade or so has created a lot of quick guards who have neither the full guard skill set, nor the post moves of a true forward. Tinsley comes to mind immediately.

However, the disparity of talent at the guard positions SHOULD be smaller, and it has traditionally been true in the past. In other words, the gap between an "elite" and "average" guard should not be as significant as with the bigs, because the talent pool is so many times larger.

Concrete Example: How many times of you heard of basketball coaches recruiting foreign bigs who have basically never played organized basketball before? They don't do that with guards!

[DPG21920]

I agree with people taking more of a gamble on project bigs, because you cannot teach size, but this all goes back to someone saying elite bigs (which they tried to include Bynum in) are somehow light years more valuable than elite guards which is what I debated. They also said that many teams would trade for Bynum at the expense of their best guards, which is not true.

[Reggie Miller]

I agree with people taking more of a gamble on project bigs, because you cannot teach size, but this all goes back to someone saying elite bigs (which they tried to include Bynum in) are somehow light years more valuable than elite guards which is what I debated. They also said that many teams would trade for Bynum at the expense of their best guards, which is not true.


Assuming Bynum is as good as the Laker fans here think (which is a pretty damn high bar, actually), you would be surprised by how many GMs would be interested in trading their best guard for him. Most GMs are still traditionalists at heart; it's just that elite bigs don't become available often enough to see it happen.

In today's game, elite bigs are not as important as they once were, but I would still stick to the "disparity" approach that I have outlined. That is, if I have a great center, he is likely to be a MUCH better player than the hypothetical "average" center.

The entire picture is somewhat clouded by the fact that today's players suck at fundamentals, by and large. As you pointed out, there is too much specialization, and too many one-dimensional players are making big bucks.

[Allanon]

I agree with people taking more of a gamble on project bigs, because you cannot teach size, but this all goes back to someone saying elite bigs (which they tried to include Bynum in) are somehow light years more valuable than elite guards which is what I debated. They also said that many teams would trade for Bynum at the expense of their best guards, which is not true.

Bynum IS an elite center even if it's because all the Centers pretty much suck. It's a huge advantage to have a Bynum on your team with so many crappy Centers in the NBA now.

Bynum compared to say Kareem would not be elite but when you compare Bynum to a decent NBA center like Chris Kaman, Bynum is elite as hell. In that Clipper game, Bynum got whatever he wanted against Kaman and blocked Chris a couple of times.

I guarantee you Chicago would trade up #1 draft pick Derrick Rose for Bynum in a second.

CP3, DWill obviously no. But Tony Parker is a maybe in a trade for Bynum for the simple fact that the Spurs know the value of quality big men. Spurs have been trying to replace their Center for years now (Tiago Splitter, Ian Mahinmi and that other guy I forgot his name)

Any point guard below Tony Parker's level and there would no longer be any question about pulling that trigger.

[BUMP]

Any point guard below Tony Parker's level and there would no longer be any question about pulling that trigger.


idk if the Suns would trade him for Nash, after Shaq retires, there's no question you do it, just simply for the youth, and the fact that Pheonix's window will probably be closed.

will the Clippers trade him for Davis? probly not
idk if there's any question that the Bulls would trade Rose for Bynum, thats a little debatable.

the Mavs wouldnt trade him for Kidd, cause they're stupid.

you get the point...

[Sissiborgo]

That guy Freaking sucks he's like Diop dose not know what he is doing on the court...:lol

[Allanon]

idk if the Suns would trade him for Nash, after Shaq retires, there's no question you do it, just simply for the youth, and the fact that Pheonix's window will probably be closed.

will the Clippers trade him for Davis? probly not
idk if there's any question that the Bulls would trade Rose for Bynum, thats a little debatable.

the Mavs wouldnt trade him for Kidd, cause they're stupid.

you get the point...

The Kidd for Bynum trade almost went down, but the Lakers said no cuz they felt Bynum was more valuable.

I think the Suns would trade Nash for Bynum, they would be crazy not to. Nash was a franchise player before but now at 34 he's already declining. There's already been talk about it being Amare's team this year.

As for Rose for Bynum, Bynum isn't as well known as Rose but let's make it an easier debate. Derrick Rose or Oden, who would you take? Oden has proved even less than Bynum but he's the "bigger name".

Clippers on Baron Davis, I have no idea, they're a crazy team to begin with. Personally, I'd take Bynum over Baron Davis any day. Last year was the first full season Baron Davis had played in 7 years.

[BUMP]

As for Rose for Bynum, Bynum isn't as well known as Rose but let's make it an easier debate. Derrick Rose or Oden, who would you take? Oden has proved even less than Bynum but he's the "bigger name".


the decision between Rose and Oden can be based solely on opinion since neither has played one NBA game. i would take Oden personally, after what he has done in college, but obviously Sam Bowie comes to mind immediately when i think about Oden. (obviously not taking into consideration a team's needs) if i were to choose between Oden and Bynum, hands down its Bynum for me due to the fact that he's a productive NBA player already and i think he has almost as much potential as Oden. Oden has already missed a full season and that really worries me more than anything else, while Bynum's injuries have not been as severe.

it will be fun seeing these two go head to head in the years to come, so long as they can remain healthy:toast

[Allanon]

the decision between Rose and Oden can be based solely on opinion since neither has played one NBA game. i would take Oden personally, after what he has done in college, but obviously Sam Bowie comes to mind immediately when i think about Oden. (obviously not taking into consideration a team's needs) if i were to choose between Oden and Bynum, hands down its Bynum for me due to the fact that he's a productive NBA player already and i think he has almost as much potential as Oden. Oden has already missed a full season and that really worries me more than anything else, while Bynum's injuries have not been as severe.

it will be fun seeing these two go head to head in the years to come, so long as they can remain healthy:toast

Agreed on everything :toast