"The economy is sound..."

[Supergirl]

So says John McSame. Know who else said that?

"The fundamental business of the country, that is the production and distribution of commodities, is on a sound and prosperous basis."

A McCain campaign speech? No, it was said almost exactly 69 years ago by President Herbert Hoover on October 25, 1929. Which, for those of you keeping track of such things, was the day after Black Tuesday, which is known now to be the beginning of the Great Depression.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=21979


Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. We're seeing that in foreign policy (Vietnam was an un-winnable, unsupported, costly war) and now in economics.

[Anti.Hero]

It's pretty obvious we need to increase rich whitey's taxes, increase investment taxes, strengthen unions, and force companies to send checks to everyone in USA. Only then, will our economy make nice sounds again.

[Supergirl]

No, it's pretty obvious we need to stop funneling money to an un-winnable war in a country that has a billion dollar surplus right now.

[whottt]

S. 190 [109th]: Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005
A bill to address the regulation of secondary mortgage market enterprises, and for other purposes.



Track S. 190 [109th]

Because this bill was introduced in a previous session of Congress, no more action can occur on this bill. To see if related legislation is introduced in the current Congress, you will have to monitor the relevant subject areas, such as the ones listed in the Other Info tab.

Primary Source

See S. 190 [109th] on THOMAS for the official source of information on this bill.

What is a Senate Bill (S.)?

A bill must be passed by both the House and Senate and then be signed by the President before it becomes law.

See also: How a bill becomes a law from Project Vote Smart.
Overview
Sponsor: Sen. Charles Hagel [R-NE]hide cosponsors
Cosponsors [as of 2007-01-08]
Sen. Elizabeth Dole [R-NC]
Sen. John McCain [R-AZ]
Sen. John Sununu [R-NH]
Cosponsorship information sometimes is out of date. Why?
Bill Text: Summary | Full Text
Status: Introduced Jan 26, 2005
Scheduled for Debate -
Voted on in Senate -
Voted on in House -
Signed by President -

This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books.
Last Action: Jul 28, 2005: Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. Ordered to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute favorably.


FEDERAL HOUSING ENTERPRISE REGULATORY REFORM ACT OF 2005
The United States Senate

May 25, 2006

Section 16


John McCain:

Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae's regulator reported that the company's quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were "illusions deliberately and systematically created" by the company's senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae's former chief executive officer, OFHEO's report shows that over half of Mr. Raines' compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.

The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator's examination of the company's accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.

For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs--and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO's report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO's report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.

I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.

I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.

[whottt]

Contributors to the Obama Campaign:

Freddie Mac/Fannie May $123,000

[whottt]

Is it possible for McCain to own everyone on this subject more than he already does?


If so I'd like to know how.

[whottt]

One more time just for you Supergirl:

If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.]


That's not Herbert Hoover in 1929, that's John McCain in 2005. Quote that.

[Anti.Hero]

Has his camp pressed this issue with actual stuff like above or are they still focusing on Sexist SNL and Sexist Lipstick on a pig? Real question.

If not, his campaign manager needs to be fired.

Obama gives McCain so much ammo he could use, yet I don't really hear anything.

Obama gets the luxury of being a nobody with barely any political past performance, and he gets to sit back and throw "4 more years", "same old washington" with ease. McCain should call him out on this. Start fear-mongering the type of change Obama will really bring. How much is McCain paying these clowns?

[whottt]

Has his camp pressed this issue with actual stuff like above or are they still focusing on Sexist SNL and Sexist Lipstick on a pig? Real question.

If not, his campaign manager needs to be fired.

Obama gives McCain so much ammo he could use, yet I don't really hear anything.

Obama gets the luxury of being a nobody with barely any political past performance, and he gets to sit back and throw "4 more years", "same old washington" with ease. McCain should call him out on this. Start fear-mongering the type of change Obama will really bring. How much is McCain paying these clowns?

Oh I imagine we'll probably hear something about it today...if not that means they're saving that stuff for the debates.


It is kind of weird though..the Democrats usually don't do shit and peddle nothing but shit, but they make it sound good so the stupid people start parroting it.

The Republicans OTOH usually do have some good stuff but they suck at showing it....so the speculation runs wild.

[tonylongoriafan]

my economy is sound...that's really the issue isn't?

[Sec24Row7]

Has his camp pressed this issue with actual stuff like above or are they still focusing on Sexist SNL and Sexist Lipstick on a pig? Real question.

If not, his campaign manager needs to be fired.

Obama gives McCain so much ammo he could use, yet I don't really hear anything.

Obama gets the luxury of being a nobody with barely any political past performance, and he gets to sit back and throw "4 more years", "same old washington" with ease. McCain should call him out on this. Start fear-mongering the type of change Obama will really bring. How much is McCain paying these clowns?


You can't use rational thought to go after a candidate in a national election. The majority of the population are the reactionary idiots on both sides. The intelligence of the american voting public is represented very accurately by the members of this forum.

[101A]

my economy is sound...that's really the issue isn't?

I know you say this tongue in cheek, Eva, but the question is a good one; and one which ALL of us need to think about.

The chickens are running around our TV's all the fucking time, screaming "the sky is falling"; and these bis ass companies certainly are, and several of them are getting bailed out by......all of us.

They played fast and loose, fucked up, and because they are "So Important to the World economy" according to Jim Kramer this morning, that they HAD to be bailed out.

Important to WHAT World Economy? Does my checkbook give a flying fuck what happens to these copanies? Or do just VERY fat checkbooks (like Kramer's) give a fuck? He sure seemed calm and happy this morning; after the bailout was announced.

Also, WHO writes the actual check for the bailout? I didn't see a bill go to Congress; nor do I see any Congresspeople screaming about it this morning. BUT almost NINETY BILLION of OUR dollars were GIVEN to a company that just ran itself into the fucking ground last night - not a peep about it!!! The "bridge to nowhere" pails in comparison; but a huge deal has been made about that! That's, what, 10 more months of the Iraq war? Isn't THAT a big deal?

Nothing from Dems. Nothing from Republicans.

THIS, I feel, is the powerful and wealthy, worldwide; driving one up our collective asses. Why don't we hear from either side of the aisle? 'Cause they're in on it. As long as they have us distracted about MEANINGLESS, ridiculous, 3% here, 2% there; tax credits, abortion....etc...the list is endless; they can take their other hand, and drive the prosthetic in FARTHER!!!!

Yesterday BOTH McCain and Biden stated there OUGHT not be a bailout.
This morning their surrogates on TODAY (Pawlenta and Richardson) were ridiculed for "not understanding" what needed to happen....let's see if EITHER campaign condemns this today; or will they let it go by without a word; distract us with some other bullshit; and go about their campaigning, secure in the fact that, at the end of the day, whether they become president or not, they will have a whole hell of a lot of money and power when it is over.

[diggers]

End time candidates with a warring God? Yikes! I'd say we're about to have a history lesson. :bang

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
oh the irony

[clambake]

cut taxes and they will create jobs. bullshit, not anymore.

they don't give a rats ass about americans...they want incredible wealth....now they just have to build the illusion of high stock value and get everyone to play along.

mccain? he's fucking clueless about the economy. i'd love to be his economic consultant.

[byrontx]

Cut taxes and they will create jobs...In China.

[clambake]

Cut taxes and they will create jobs...In China.

no shit. this would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

there are 2 candidates, and when america looks at john mccain they'll see the face of corporate greed.

he's running around the country telling his sheep that he'll form a committee to oversee the corruption, which is bullshit for the simple fact that he will have absolutely zero, zilch, nada imput on that claim.

his cronies will be pulling him around on a leash like a dog.

[Supergirl]

Obama gets the luxury of being a nobody with barely any political past performance, and he gets to sit back and throw "4 more years", "same old washington" with ease. McCain should call him out on this. Start fear-mongering the type of change Obama will really bring. How much is McCain paying these clowns?

This distortion of Obama being a "nobody" is just repulsive. How a man who knows more about constitutional law and how our government should work, who was a two term state senator before his terms as US senator, can be considered a "nobody" ....well, that just comes back to the points of the article I posed on white privilege.

He is certainly more experienced about domestic and foreign issues than Palin. And while both Biden and McCain can cite more "experience" they've both been around for all the disasters and mistakes, particularly of the Bush and Reagan years, and at some points can be held equally culpable. Really, Obama is the ONLY one of the four candidates who is experienced, knowledgeable, and has fresh ideas to offer the system which is in many ways broken.

[2centsworth]

This distortion of Obama being a "nobody" is just repulsive. How a man who knows more about constitutional law and how our government should work, who was a two term state senator before his terms as US senator, can be considered a "nobody" ....well, that just comes back to the points of the article I posed on white privilege.

State Senator:lol That can be good if the person has a record of getting things done. Otherwise, I personally know a few state senators who I want no where near the oval office.

Now the US congress is another subject. That is quality experience, but his time is limited and he has done nothing while he's been in office.





He is certainly more experienced about domestic and foreign issues than Palin.

you might be right on the foreign, but they could both possibly be clueless.

Can't wait for the debates.



And while both Biden and McCain can cite more "experience" they've both been around for all the disasters and mistakes, particularly of the Bush and Reagan years, and at some points can be held equally culpable. Really, Obama is the ONLY one of the four candidates who is experienced, knowledgeable, and has fresh ideas to offer the system which is in many ways broken.

So Reagan would lose this election? IMO Reagan would win all 57 states.

[DarkReign]

This distortion of Obama being a "nobody" is just repulsive. How a man who knows more about constitutional law and how our government should work, who was a two term state senator before his terms as US senator, can be considered a "nobody" ....well, that just comes back to the points of the article I posed on white privilege.

He is certainly more experienced about domestic and foreign issues than Palin. And while both Biden and McCain can cite more "experience" they've both been around for all the disasters and mistakes, particularly of the Bush and Reagan years, and at some points can be held equally culpable. Really, Obama is the ONLY one of the four candidates who is experienced, knowledgeable, and has fresh ideas to offer the system which is in many ways broken.

I can think of a helluva lot better-suited candidates than the fucking wasteland we are force-fed by this two party system than McCain/Soccermom and Obamessiah/Biden.


I know you say this tongue in cheek, Eva, but the question is a good one; and one which ALL of us need to think about.

The chickens are running around our TV's all the fucking time, screaming "the sky is falling"; and these bis ass companies certainly are, and several of them are getting bailed out by......all of us.

They played fast and loose, fucked up, and because they are "So Important to the World economy" according to Jim Kramer this morning, that they HAD to be bailed out.

Important to WHAT World Economy? Does my checkbook give a flying fuck what happens to these copanies? Or do just VERY fat checkbooks (like Kramer's) give a fuck? He sure seemed calm and happy this morning; after the bailout was announced.

Also, WHO writes the actual check for the bailout? I didn't see a bill go to Congress; nor do I see any Congresspeople screaming about it this morning. BUT almost NINETY BILLION of OUR dollars were GIVEN to a company that just ran itself into the fucking ground last night - not a peep about it!!! The "bridge to nowhere" pails in comparison; but a huge deal has been made about that! That's, what, 10 more months of the Iraq war? Isn't THAT a big deal?

Nothing from Dems. Nothing from Republicans.

THIS, I feel, is the powerful and wealthy, worldwide; driving one up our collective asses. Why don't we hear from either side of the aisle? 'Cause they're in on it. As long as they have us distracted about MEANINGLESS, ridiculous, 3% here, 2% there; tax credits, abortion....etc...the list is endless; they can take their other hand, and drive the prosthetic in FARTHER!!!!

Yesterday BOTH McCain and Biden stated there OUGHT not be a bailout.
This morning their surrogates on TODAY (Pawlenta and Richardson) were ridiculed for "not understanding" what needed to happen....let's see if EITHER campaign condemns this today; or will they let it go by without a word; distract us with some other bullshit; and go about their campaigning, secure in the fact that, at the end of the day, whether they become president or not, they will have a whole hell of a lot of money and power when it is over.

Now thats a fucking post. :tu

[2centsworth]

I know you say this tongue in cheek, Eva, but the question is a good one; and one which ALL of us need to think about.

The chickens are running around our TV's all the fucking time, screaming "the sky is falling"; and these bis ass companies certainly are, and several of them are getting bailed out by......all of us.

They played fast and loose, fucked up, and because they are "So Important to the World economy" according to Jim Kramer this morning, that they HAD to be bailed out.

Important to WHAT World Economy? Does my checkbook give a flying fuck what happens to these copanies? Or do just VERY fat checkbooks (like Kramer's) give a fuck? He sure seemed calm and happy this morning; after the bailout was announced.

Also, WHO writes the actual check for the bailout? I didn't see a bill go to Congress; nor do I see any Congresspeople screaming about it this morning. BUT almost NINETY BILLION of OUR dollars were GIVEN to a company that just ran itself into the fucking ground last night - not a peep about it!!! The "bridge to nowhere" pails in comparison; but a huge deal has been made about that! That's, what, 10 more months of the Iraq war? Isn't THAT a big deal?

Nothing from Dems. Nothing from Republicans.

THIS, I feel, is the powerful and wealthy, worldwide; driving one up our collective asses. Why don't we hear from either side of the aisle? 'Cause they're in on it. As long as they have us distracted about MEANINGLESS, ridiculous, 3% here, 2% there; tax credits, abortion....etc...the list is endless; they can take their other hand, and drive the prosthetic in FARTHER!!!!

Yesterday BOTH McCain and Biden stated there OUGHT not be a bailout.
This morning their surrogates on TODAY (Pawlenta and Richardson) were ridiculed for "not understanding" what needed to happen....let's see if EITHER campaign condemns this today; or will they let it go by without a word; distract us with some other bullshit; and go about their campaigning, secure in the fact that, at the end of the day, whether they become president or not, they will have a whole hell of a lot of money and power when it is over.


101A, we don't want capital to dry up. How would Americans buy houses, cars, appliances, etc...? You could say cash, but the vast majority of Americans have negative savings rates and live paycheck to paycheck. We could trigger a great depression right now or we can prolong things and hope we straigthen things out later. I've been harping about this unsustainable path we're on as a country since I first registered on this site. In fact, I've made it clear that McCain only buys us more time and maybe a 1% chance of turning things around. By the end of Obama's term we will be in that great depression.

There is a reason behind my signature.

[boutons_]

101A writes a killer post. Congrats.

The capitalist Old Boys in govt bailing out the private-sector Old Boy capitalists in private sector using taxpayer (From The People) obligations is just more proof that the USA is run by a kleptocratic plutocracy to their exclusive advantage and enrichment, and not run By The People, For The People.

[clambake]

101A, we don't want capital to dry up. How would Americans buy houses, cars, appliances, etc...? You could say cash, but the vast majority of Americans have negative savings rates and live paycheck to paycheck. We could trigger a great depression right now or we can prolong things and hope we straigthen things out later. I've been harping about this unsustainable path we're on as a country since I first registered on this site. In fact, I've made it clear that McCain only buys us more time and maybe a 1% chance of turning things around. By the end of Obama's term we will be in that great depression.

There is a reason behind my signature.

thats a childish prediction.

you're not qualified to see the future, period.

last year, you wanted to turn social security over to wall street:lmao

[Spurminator]

Can't wait to see the bonuses the execs at these companies get at the end of the year...

[2centsworth]

thats a childish prediction.

you're not qualified to see the future, period.

last year, you wanted to turn social security over to wall street:lmao

I'm more than qualified to make an educated prediction, period. You on the other hand... I don't know.

You know nothing about what I wanted. My position on social security has been and continues to be choice for those under the age of 40. Let me be free from a system that is built around printing money.

[DarkReign]

Can't wait to see the bonuses the execs at these companies get at the end of the year...

Shiiiiit, they deserve it!

If I could get the Federal Government to bail my company's ass out to the tune of 100+ billion, Im due a fucking bonus you better believe!

I say give them millions upon millions. They just successfully robbed the American taxpayers in the single greatest bailout in American history, all due to their quasi-legal loaning practices and tampered numbers.

Theyre criminals, in effect, who just got bailed out by the Fed.

If thats not a bonus-worthy act, youre a tough sell. Those dudes are going to have gold statues made for them.....the envy of the business world...

Recipe for success:
Create a less-than-ethical loan configuration and hope Americans are dumb enough to bite. Check!

Sell those mortgages to Federally-backed loan operations Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac. Check!

Freddie's/Fannie's exec will then cook the books to show profit to prolong payouts and potential bankruptcy. Check!

When shit hits the fan, the Fed will bail us out to the tune of almost a quarter TRILLION, making our scam the largest, most profitable scam in human history! Total-fucking-CHECK!

Ca-ching!

[clambake]

Let me be free from a system that is built around printing money.

then you've made the wrong choices. you could see that if you were more liquid.

[DarkReign]

You know nothing about what I wanted. My position on social security has been and continues to be choice for those under the age of 40. Let me be free from a system that is built around printing money.

If you mean I can opt out of the program entirely, that is I no longer pay any tax, but will receive no benefit when older/disabled....

You got my vote. But the senior citizens of today wont be paid for much longer without my contribution, or at least thats the way I understand it.

[2centsworth]

then you've made the wrong choices. you could see that if you were more liquid.

there you go again, thinking you know something about me. You are one pretentious little prick. btw, what choices are you talking about?


It just occurred to me, you don't know how to read.

[2centsworth]

If you mean I can opt out of the program entirely, that is I no longer pay any tax, but will receive no benefit when older/disabled....

that's exactly what I mean


You got my vote. But the senior citizens of today wont be paid for much longer without my contribution, or at least thats the way I understand it. people who are younger than 40 who opt in to the system will have to commit themselves to recieving no more than they put in plus whatever interest the government earns on their money. People over 40 will receive what was promised and the government will just have to issue bonds to make up any deficit.

[clambake]

people who are younger than 40 who opt in to the system will have to commit themselves to recieving no more than they put in plus whatever interest the government earns on their money.
this would be pure disaster in 30 years. this would be jakarta.

People over 40 will receive what was promised and the government will just have to issue bonds to make up any deficit.
unless you opt for jakarta.

[DarkReign]

this would be pure disaster in 30 years. this would be jakarta.

unless you opt for jakarta.

I googled "jakarta". Its in India and densely populated.

Obviously thats not what you meant.....what do you mean?

[clambake]

I googled "jakarta". Its in India and densely populated.

Obviously thats not what you meant.....what do you mean?

it's indonesia and thats what i mean. i did some work in jakarta for bechtel many years ago.

greed cares nothing about suffering.

[DarkReign]

it's indonesia and thats what i mean. i did some work in jakarta for bechtel many years ago.

greed cares nothing about suffering.

Indonesia.....shit my bad, I just read the quick little blurbs under all the hits on google.

While I agree "greed cares nothing about suffering", in what way does this idea apply to Social Security?

[KenMcCoy]

So says John McSame. Know who else said that?

"The fundamental business of the country, that is the production and distribution of commodities, is on a sound and prosperous basis."

A McCain campaign speech? No, it was said almost exactly 69 years ago by President Herbert Hoover on October 25, 1929. Which, for those of you keeping track of such things, was the day after Black Tuesday, which is known now to be the beginning of the Great Depression.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=21979


Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. We're seeing that in foreign policy (Vietnam was an un-winnable, unsupported, costly war) and now in economics.

:rollin:rollin:rollin It was Hoover and FDR that turned what would have been a recession into the Great Depression with all of their federal programs and tax increases...go ahead vote for Obama if you want it to get worse. He'll show us change allright...



This brings me to the big question that arises from government activities: What should government do when the economy moves into recession? The lesson history seems to teach is that government should do as little as possible.
The first major recession America experienced as an independent nation was in 1819. There was a clamor to halt immigration, but nothing was done. Within two years the economy was once again booming.
There were further panics in 1837, 1857, 1873, 1883 and 1893; federal activity was minimal, and, in effect, the downturns cured themselves. The 1907 panic was settled by J.P. Morgan, a private individual, who, with fellow financiers, determined which businesses could be saved and which would go to the wall.
The panic of 1920 was cured by the masterly inactivity of President Warren G. Harding: He did nothing at all, and the trouble cured itself.
The same thing might have happened after the big Wall Street crash in October 1929 if President Herbert Hoover had followed the advice of Andrew Mellon, Secretary of the Treasury. Mellon remembered 1907 and 1920 and knew that a key to capitalism is allowing badly run businesses to go bust in a down cycle. He told President Hoover that the destructive forces unleashed by the crash should be left free to "liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate [and so] purge the rottenness from the economy."
Unfortunately, social engineer Hoover rejected this wise advice and began to do a great deal of fiddling. As the recession deepened and persisted, he fiddled more and more. But all this fiddling did, in effect, was to keep badly run and fundamentally insolvent businesses afloat.
When Franklin D. Roosevelt took office he didn't change Hoover's policies; he intensified and enlarged them. Hence, the punitive power of natural economic forces, which ultimately serves a constructive purpose by clearing the ground for more efficient businesses, was deadened and restrained. The original recession thus became the Great Depression, which continued throughout the 1930s. Only the advent of the Second World War revived the economy. The Hoover-Roosevelt policies are a textbook example of how not to deal with a major economic downturn.
The golden rule of economics is to go with nature, not against it. I am seriously worried that this rule will be ignored in the current recession, especially if the Democrats win the presidency in November. Barack Obama has been compared with John F. Kennedy. To me, he's beginning to look like a Hoover-FDR hybrid.


http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2008/0901/027.html



New Deal programs were financed by tripling federal taxes from $1.6 billion in 1933 to $5.3 billion in 1940. Excise taxes, personal income taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, holding company taxes and so-called "excess profits" taxes all went up.
The most important source of New Deal revenue were excise taxes levied on alcoholic beverages, cigarettes, matches, candy, chewing gum, margarine, fruit juice, soft drinks, cars, tires (including tires on wheelchairs), telephone calls, movie tickets, playing cards, electricity, radios -- these and many other everyday things were subject to New Deal excise taxes, which meant that the New Deal was substantially financed by the middle class and poor people. Yes, to hear FDR's "Fireside Chats," one had to pay FDR excise taxes for a radio and electricity! A Treasury Department report acknowledged that excise taxes "often fell disproportionately on the less affluent."
Until 1937, New Deal revenue from excise taxes exceeded the combined revenue from both personal income taxes and corporate income taxes. It wasn't until 1942, in the midst of World War II, that income taxes exceeded excise taxes for the first time under FDR. Consumers had less money to spend, and employers had less money for growth and jobs.
New Deal taxes were major job destroyers during the 1930s, prolonging unemployment that averaged 17%. Higher business taxes meant that employers had less money for growth and jobs. Social Security excise taxes on payrolls made it more expensive for employers to hire people, which discouraged hiring.
Other New Deal programs destroyed jobs, too. For example, the National Industrial Recovery Act (1933) cut back production and forced wages above market levels, making it more expensive for employers to hire people - blacks alone were estimated to have lost some 500,000 jobs because of the National Industrial Recovery Act. The Agricultural Adjustment Act (1933) cut back farm production and devastated black tenant farmers who needed work. The National Labor Relations Act (1935) gave unions monopoly bargaining power in workplaces and led to violent strikes and compulsory unionization of mass production industries. Unions secured above-market wages, triggering big layoffs and helping to usher in the depression of 1938.
What about the good supposedly done by New Deal spending programs? These didn't increase the number of jobs in the economy, because the money spent on New Deal projects came from taxpayers who consequently had less money to spend on food, coats, cars, books and other things that would have stimulated the economy. This is a classic case of the seen versus the unseen -- we can see the jobs created by New Deal spending, but we cannot see jobs destroyed by New Deal taxing.
For defenders of the New Deal, perhaps the most embarrassing revelation about New Deal spending programs is they channeled money AWAY from the South, the poorest region in the United States. The largest share of New Deal spending and loan programs went to political "swing" states in the West and East - where incomes were at least 60% higher than in the South. As an incumbent, FDR didn't see any point giving much money to the South where voters were already overwhelmingly on his side.
Americans needed bargains, but FDR hammered consumers -- and millions had little money. His National Industrial Recovery Act forced consumers to pay above-market prices for goods and services, and the Agricultural Adjustment Act forced Americans to pay more for food. Moreover, FDR banned discounting by signing the Anti-Chain Store Act (1936) and the Retail Price Maintenance Act (1937).
Poor people suffered from other high-minded New Deal policies like the Tennessee Valley Authority monopoly. Its dams flooded an estimated 750,000 acres, an area about the size of Rhode Island, and TVA agents dispossessed thousands of people. Poor black sharecroppers, who didn't own property, got no compensation.
FDR might not have intended to harm millions of poor people, but that's what happened. We should evaluate government policies according to their actual consequences, not their good intentions.


http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

[clambake]

While I agree "greed cares nothing about suffering", in what way does this idea apply to Social Security?

2cents is suggesting something that would be a colossal mistake.

jakarta consist of incredible top tier wealth and immense poverty. blow your mind type of poverty. its the model for powerful greed over logic and morals. when will americans take their country back?

[2centsworth]

DarkReign,

are we going to be a country of personal responsibility that pools our resources together for defense and infrastructure or are we going to put all of the power in the hands of government elites?

As far as solving immense poverty, take a look at what China has done. They are far from perfect, but opening up their markets has made the world of difference.

btw, i did say choice(freedom) didn't I?

[DarkReign]

2cents is suggesting something that would be a colossal mistake.

jakarta consist of incredible top tier wealth and immense poverty. blow your mind type of poverty. its the model for powerful greed over logic and morals.

So youre saying Social Security somehow prevents a Jakarta-type situation?

This I dont believe to be true at all. SS benefits two kinds of people in this country.....the elderly and disabled (or their beneficiaries).

I imagine Jakarta's poor isnt filled with old people and the handicapped, so....


when will Americans take their country back?

They wont. Stop hoping. Shit went downhill when televisions were put in every home. America is just ahead in the "idiot curve" in comparison to the other developed countries due to television being developed and perfected here, but theylll get where we are soon enough.

I think youre in dire need of a some good-old-fashioned pessimism.

The people you drive alongside, the oxygen-consuming masses you stand next to, the weak-willed invertebrates who howl at your workplace are the gold standard of the entire world.

This America we live in is as good as it gets, the world around, the globe over. Todays idiot is tomorrow's scholar. The dumbing down of the masses is not reversible or correctable.

The best you can hope for is World War 3 and by some grace and luck, you survive. The massively ignorant have outnumbered the average intelligent by a wide margin for 2 generations.....and the gap is growing ever wider.

Soon, what with the current crop of political maneuvering we are all bearing witness to now as an epiphany, our grandchildren will be arguing on some forum over the merits of the current Republican Presidential Candidate Nick Jonas versus the Democratic Nominee Ashley Tisdale.

Get fucking used to it. Buy some guns, read some books, argue with some peeps at ST and enjoy what is left of this ride. Because we are all going to hell in a handbasket and no President Obama/McCain is really going to change any of that. But Im sure someone, some time in the future will believe in Presidential Elect Jonas as the next savior as well.....only to be just as disappointed as the rest of us.

We control nothing except our own two hands. To feign ignorance to that fact is putting an undue pressure upon yourself. Have a beer, kiss your kids, love your spouse, smoke one every now and then, laugh with your friends, take this entire existence less seriously and the humor that is inherent in all this will become worth the discussion alone, not any pitiful attempt at actual results.

The days of Great Leaders have looooong since passed.

[DarkReign]

DarkReign,

are we going to be a country of personal responsibility that pools our resources together for defense and infrastructure or are we going to put all of the power in the hands of government elites?

As far as solving immense poverty, take a look at what China has done. They are far from perfect, but opening up their markets has made the world of difference.

btw, i did say choice(freedom) didn't I?

You get no argument from me. I never agreed with privatizing SS as long as I am mandated to participate and I never will.

But if it becomes something I can opt out of, I dont give a shit what the other lemmings do. I have my IRAs, my 401k, my investments, etc. And they arent something I inherited. I started them, I am contributing to them and whether they pass or fail is my responsibility.

Besides, Im a smoker, Im not even going to live long enough to retire anwyay.

[clambake]

So youre saying Social Security somehow prevents a Jakarta-type situation?
2cents suggestion of change would accelerate that possibility...the gap between the masses. jakarta wealth was not created by jakarta.


This I dont believe to be true at all. SS benefits two kinds of people in this country.....the elderly and disabled (or their beneficiaries).
in 30 years, if you cut them out it would mean disaster. jakarta style.


I imagine Jakarta's poor isnt filled with old people and the handicapped, so...
half the population have no access to clean water, so.......

[DarkReign]

2cents suggestion of change would accelerate that possibility...the gap between the masses. jakarta wealth was not created by jakarta.


in 30 years, if you cut them out it would mean disaster. jakarta style

Disaster for whom? If your plan in later life consists of "My SS Benefits" youre fucked to begin with.

Again, SS only benefits the elderly and handicapped....it doesnt benefit me (yet), it doesnt benefit my below-average-income brothers (yet) and it doesnt benefit anyone I know except my grandparents.

By the time I am 65, I highly doubt SS will be around anymore anyway. The fact that I am mandated to contribute to a federal fund of which I will never draw from is revolting to me. Social Security may have started out with good intentions, but its been turned into a powerful political tool to garner the support of the over-average voting bloc...the elderly. Those fuckers turn out in droves (theyre old and bored, I dont blame them) to vote so they had better be appeased.

Back to Jakarta, while Im sure you have a more salient point outside the SS element, you havent stated it.

With no research into Jakarta, I can confidently assume its horrible problems have little to zero to do with their version of SS, or lack thereof.

Im sure it has more to do with political corruption and citizen oppression. But thats just a guess.

Social Security is a misnomer is there ever were one.


half the population have no access to clean water, so...

...and that has what to do with Social Security?

[boutons_]

"are we going to put all of the power in the hands of government elites"

All of the power (that counts) is already in their hands, and they won't EVER yield any of it.

A key myth that many here and elsewhere believe is that the American citizens have a govt For The People and By The People.

The dumbed-down, TV-narcotized, corporate-scammed, "fat,dumb & happy" Americans vastly outnumber what Jefferson referred to as the informed populace being the best defense against abuse of power by the government he helped create.

[clambake]

are there any disabilities that could be attributed to filthy water?

the real question is that the people who say they will be responsible for their security in 30 years are dreaming. check where you live and notice that americans will be less responsible.

you will be in the middle whether you pass or fail in personal financial responsibility.

[BradLohaus]

what Jefferson referred to as the informed populace being the best defense against abuse of power by the government he helped create.

Yeah, we are a pretty long way from what we used to be in that department.

It must be nice to be able to construct a pyramid scheme, and then have the masses bail you out when it starts to crumble. If you don't mind being a theif, that is.

They should call them the money non-changers, because they never change.

[clambake]

it's happening here because the big boys are running out of other places in the world to do it.

[Anti.Hero]

I'm more than qualified to make an educated prediction, period. You on the other hand... I don't know.

You know nothing about what I wanted. My position on social security has been and continues to be choice for those under the age of 40. Let me be free from a system that is built around printing money.

Yes! I'd opt out of social security yesterday! (22)

[smeagol]

When the DOW drops almost 10% in two days, you know the economy is nothing but sound!

[whottt]

When the DOW drops almost 10% in two days, you know the economy is nothing but sound!


Dude...you haven't seen nothing. If Obama gets elected every single person in the stock market knows what a Capital Gains tax increase is and that Obama is intending to tax the shit out of them...

You haven't seen nothing yet.


He's not Bill Clinton...Bill Clinton(and the Repub Congress) rolled the Cap Gains Tax back...that was the #1 think the Government did to contribute to the stock boom of the 90's...and Obama is so far away from that it's ridiculous.

[jackseven]

I am trying to become more involved in accruing knowledge on these two candidates, but I don't feel I have enough sources and information to be confident in thoroughly assessing them. As of now, I'm in McCain's corner but this was a stupid, stupid statement.

The economy couldn't be much more unsound.

I think the nation's economy is better off just letting these huge institutions fail. If any regulation should be administered it should be on the ceo salaries in the private sector.

Somebody is getting rich and it's the CEO's/higher ups. They take retroactive stock options, gamble on their companies and if the stock goes up they're a hero. If not they call the American gov and claim we're too big to fail. It would hurt the American people/economy if we went under. I say it hurts a hell of a lot more when the nation is called on to bear the piss poor fiscal management and unethical conduct of the hierarchy of these large companies.

Will it hurt if AIG goes down? Of course. However, I think it hurts more if the US government continues to prop irresponsible gambling and a cocky expectancy of being bailed out when the horrible decision making ripens.

Am I missing something? Do you agree or disagree?

I'm trying to gain prospective here from fellow interested political minds.

[KenMcCoy]

McCain said that the FUNDAMENTALS of the economy were sound...which from your post it looks like you agree.

IMO, Fannie/Freddie/AIG/Bear...none of them should have been bailed out. Let the weak companies die and the stronger, more efficient ones will take their place. Thats the fundamentals of capitalism.

Sure we'd all have to suck it up for a year or two until the markets worked themselves out, but that will be much better than continuing to use taxpayer money to bail them out. If this continues (gov't bailouts) we'll be on a path towards another great depression and not just a recession.