OK, they are officially about to go too far...

[CosmicCowboy]

Sounds like the Fed is about to create a new RTC type structure to "save" the banks...When the street reacts like this (just like they did before the AIG announcement) you know theres some truth in it...only difference is that with the RTC they took over the thrifts, closed them, and liquidated their assets. This time it looks like they are just gonna take the bad debt off their balance sheets and let these greedy risk taking gunslinger banks continue to operate. I am officially disgusted.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080918/wall_street.html?.v=44

AP
Stocks surge on report of entity for bad debt
Thursday September 18, 4:19 pm ET
By Tim Paradis, AP Business Writer
Stocks end sharply higher on report that government will create entity to hold banks' debt

NEW YORK (AP) -- Wall Street rallied in a stunning late-session turnaround Thursday, shooting higher and hurtling the Dow Jones industrials up 400 points following a report that the federal government may create an entity that will take over banks' bad debt.

ADVERTISEMENT
A report that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is considering the formation of an entity like the Resolution Trust Corp. that was set up during the savings and loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s left investors ebullient. Investors hoped a huge federal intervention could help financial institutions jettison bad mortgage debt and stop the drain on capital that has already taken down companies including Bear Stearns Cos. and Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.

Worries about financial land mines on companies' books have hobbled the world's financial markets and led to the intense volatility in the markets this week.

"It's going to take a lot of the bad debt off the balance sheets of these companies," said Scott Fullman, director of derivatives investment strategy for WJB Capital Group in New York, commenting on the possibilities of an entity akin to the RTC. It could alleviate many of the pressures causing the credit crisis, he said, and open up the credit markets again. But Fullman noted, "the devil's in the details."

"Bear markets are very sensitive to news. And on a scale of 1 to 10, this one is a 13," he said.

The report gave direction to a market that had bolted in and out of positive territory for much of the session as investors shuttled between the safety of Treasury bills and gold and the bargains posed by stocks that have been pounded lower.

According to preliminary calculations, the Dow soared 410.03, or 3.86 percent, to 11,019.69, surging 560 points from its low of the day, 10,459.44.

Broader stock indicators also jumped. The Standard & Poor's 500 index rose 50.01, or 4.32 percent, to 1,206.60, and the Nasdaq composite index advanced 100.25, or 4.78 percent, to 2,199.10.

The report of a broader government bailout proved more reassuring to investors than moves before the opening bell Thursday by the Federal Reserve and other major central banks to inject as much as $180 billion into global money markets. The moves were an attempt to keep the credit crisis from worsening; the Fed added another $55 billion in overnight loans Thursday.

But it was only the prospect of a more comprehensive vehicle to sweep up bad debt that emboldened investors. Congress established the RTC in 1989 to buy $394 billion worth of real estate, mortgages and other assets of hundreds of failed savings-and-loan institutions. The corporation operated for several years disposing of the associations' assets, and then went out of business.

That could help alleviate the grinding gears in the world's credit markets have driven up the cost of borrowing for businesses; banks have become hesitant to make loans even to other banks for fear of what institutions might be hobbled by soured debt. Investors are also contending with fears that more big-name financial companies could falter.

[T Park]

I need a vacation...

[ChumpDumper]

No politician is going to let a bunch of huge businesses just fail before a presidential election.

[BacktoBasics]

It'd be nice if they removed some of my debt.

[CosmicCowboy]

It'd be nice if they removed some of my debt.

No shit. I think I will go but a new fleet of trucks for my business and spend a bunch of money on other new equipment and let them take over my debt. fuck this being conservative and not buying stuff I can't afford.

[remingtonbo2001]

No shit. I think I will go but a new fleet of trucks for my business and spend a bunch of money on other new equipment and let them take over my debt. fuck this being conservative and not buying stuff I can't afford.

Party at the Richer's house! :downspin:

[SpursWoman]

So, does this mean I can stop paying my mortgage payments and still get to keep my house?? Awesome.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It'd be nice if they removed some of my debt.we need to pull a tyler durden.

[balli]

This is no longer capitalism. It's some fucked up new shit where our government steals our money, spends it all in Iraq and then in the name and debt of taxpayers, borrows more from China to give to a bunch of lousy banks. Fuck America.

Or are they just printing more $ to give to banks, thereby de-valuing the dollars I didn't already pay in taxes? Either way- Fuck America.

[ORION]

we need to pull a tyler durden.

Remeber the first rule !

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Remeber the first rule !i'm talking about blowing up the credit agencies at the end.

[ashbeeigh]

So, does this mean I can stop paying my mortgage payments and still get to keep my house?? Awesome.

I see it everyday SW. Everyday.

[InRareForm]

This is no longer capitalism. .

It's socialism.

http://www.innovatingtowin.com/innovating_to_win/images/pig-lipstick.jpg

[balli]

This shit makes true socialism look like a shining beacon of human accomplishment and morality.

[T Park]

This is no longer capitalism. It's some fucked up new shit where our government steals our money, spends it all in Iraq and then in the name and debt of taxpayers, borrows more from China to give to a bunch of lousy banks. Fuck America.

Or are they just printing more $ to give to banks, thereby de-valuing the dollars I didn't already pay in taxes? Either way- Fuck America.

Agreed its BS.

But I can't go as far as to say fuck america.


Ill take america over Cuba, Venezuela or any other fucked up country.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This shit makes true socialism look like a shining beacon of human accomplishment and morality.

:lol what exactly is true socialism? give me a concrete example please

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Agreed its BS.

But I can't go as far as to say fuck america.


Ill take america over Cuba, Venezuela or any other fucked up country.

well, no shit sherlock! Way stick your neck out with that one :lol

You know the shit's hit the fan when you begin comparing the US with third world countries...

[Big P]

This is no longer capitalism. It's some fucked up new shit where our government steals our money, spends it all in Iraq and then in the name and debt of taxpayers, borrows more from China to give to a bunch of lousy banks. Fuck America.

Or are they just printing more $ to give to banks, thereby de-valuing the dollars I didn't already pay in taxes? Either way- Fuck America.

"Fuck America"?

Are you in the States? If you are you can kindly get the fuck out of our great country...if not fuck you and whatever shithole you claim as home.

[balli]

Agreed its BS.

But I can't go as far as to say fuck america.


Ill take america over Cuba, Venezuela or any other fucked up country.

In Cuba and Venezuela they re-distribute monies to pay for healthcare and education. Every single person in Cuba has free medical care. In America they re-distribute monies to pay for a bunch of huge corporations' gigantic and risky mistakes. Meanwhile, in America, there are 45 million people who are shit out of luck if they need a doctor.

Which is the fucked up country again?


:lol what exactly is true socialism? give me a concrete example please
Well maybe I should have said the traditional concept of socialism, as opposed to this shit we're doing now.

[T Park]

well, no shit sherlock! Way stick your neck out with that one :lol

You know the shit's hit the fan when you begin comparing the US with third world countries...


Who yanked your string?

[T Park]

In Cuba and Venezuela they re-distribute monies to pay for healthcare and education. Every single person in Cuba has free medical care. In America they re-distribute monies to pay for a bunch of huge corporations' gigantic and risky mistakes. Meanwhile, in America, there are 45 million people who are shit out of luck if they need a doctor.

Which is the fucked up country again?


My money shouldn't be redistributed for anything other than infrastructure and defense.

Anything else is a waste and a BS reason for spending my tax dollars.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In Cuba and Venezuela they re-distribute monies to pay for healthcare and education. Every single person in Cuba has free medical care. In America they re-distribute monies to pay for a bunch of huge corporations' gigantic and risky mistakes. Meanwhile, in America, there are 45 million people who are shit out of luck if they need a doctor.

Which is the fucked up country again?


Well maybe I should have said the traditional concept of socialism, as opposed to this shit we're doing now.

How long have you lived in Venezuela?

[balli]

How long have you lived in Venezuela?

Don't need to. I got wiki. And I'm not saying it's good healthcare. I'd bet it's piss-poor (I know Cuba's is), but that's better than here in America where for 45 million people there is no healthcare whatsoever. I'll take a dirty hospital in Venezuela over a streetcorner in America any day.


Extensive inoculation programs and the availability of low- or no-cost health care provided by the Venezuelan Institute of Social Security have made Venezuela's health care infrastructure one of the more advanced in Latin America.

[boo_radley]

This is no longer capitalism. It's some fucked up new shit where our government steals our money, spends it all in Iraq and then in the name and debt of taxpayers, borrows more from China to give to a bunch of lousy banks. Fuck America.

Or are they just printing more $ to give to banks, thereby de-valuing the dollars I didn't already pay in taxes? Either way- Fuck America.
What it is, is a bunch of Conservatives waking up the morning after an awesome party and realizing that they fucked some shit up and need to fix it PDQ...kinda like at the end of Weird Science or Risky Business.

There's just no way we can allow all these banks and companies go under...it would be like 1929 all over again.

[balli]

"Fuck America"?

Are you in the States? If you are you can kindly get the fuck out of our great country...if not fuck you and whatever shithole you claim as home.

Fuck you, you flag-sucking halfwit.

[T Park]

I ask again, why my money that I work very hard for, should go to pay for someone else?

Why is it my responsibility?

[T Park]

Fuck you, you flag-sucking halfwit.


I'll gladly wave my flag, I love my country, and I always will.

Go on and move there since its so fucking fantastic.

[balli]

There's just no way we can allow all these banks and companies go under...it would be like 1929 all over again.

Then so fucking be it. That's what we get.

But what you don't do IMO is start propping up capitalism with federal money we don't even have. In case people forgot, not only are we handing out billions of dollars to subsidize greedy and risky lending practices, but we're doing it at a time when Bush has racked up a half trillion dollar budget deficit. So fuck it, bring on the third world in America, or does the "free-hand" only apply when money is being made?

[balli]

I ask again, why my money that I work very hard for, should go to pay for someone else?

Why is it my responsibility?

It shouldn't necessarily, but if it's going to be redistributed (and it is) it's a lot more honorable to do it in the name of healthcare as opposed to keeping greedy and stupid capitalist markets/corporations afloat.

[tlongII]

In Cuba and Venezuela they re-distribute monies to pay for healthcare and education. Every single person in Cuba has free medical care. In America they re-distribute monies to pay for a bunch of huge corporations' gigantic and risky mistakes. Meanwhile, in America, there are 45 million people who are shit out of luck if they need a doctor.

Which is the fucked up country again?


Well maybe I should have said the traditional concept of socialism, as opposed to this shit we're doing now.

Have you seen what the medical care in Cuba is like? You might want to research it before making ignorant statements.

[balli]

Have you seen what the medical care in Cuba is like? You might want to research it before making ignorant statements.


And I'm not saying it's good healthcare. I'd bet it's piss-poor (I know Cuba's is), but that's better than here in America where for 45 million people there is no healthcare whatsoever. I'll take a dirty hospital in Venezuela over a streetcorner in America any day.

Edit: And a big part of the reason that Cuba's healthcare is so terrible is because of the US trade embargo that purposefully denies Cuba's access to pharmaceuticals.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Don't need to. I got wiki. And I'm not saying it's good healthcare. I'd bet it's piss-poor (I know Cuba's is), but that's better than here in America where for 45 million people there is no healthcare whatsoever. I'll take a dirty hospital in Venezuela over a streetcorner in America any day.


well I lived in Venezuela for 8 years and I can tell you, you don't know what you're talking about. First of all, I've lived in enough South American nations to know that that wiki bullshit you just posted about Venezuela's health care infracstructure being the strongest in South America is just that, bullshit.

Once you've seen the state of public hospitals in Caracas or Maracaibo (the 2 most populated cities in Venezuela) then you can weight in. Otherwise, stick to what you've experienced. You don't have a fucking clue how good you have it in the US.

Word of advice, wiki is a seriously unreliable source of information bro.

[balli]

well I lived in Venezuela for 8 years and I can tell you, you don't know what you're talking about. First of all, I've lived in enough South American nations to know that that wiki bullshit you just posted about Venezuela's health care infracstructure being the strongest in South America is just that, bullshit.

Once you've seen the state of public hospitals in Caracas or Maracaibo (the 2 most populated cities in Venezuela) then you can weight in. Otherwise, stick to what you've experienced. You don't have a fucking clue how good you have it in the US.

Word of advice, wiki is a seriously unreliable source of information bro.

Look man. I said I'd bet that their healthcare is piss-poor. I said that.

I'm just saying, there are 45 million people in America who don't even have piss-poor healthcare. If you're one of them, you get cancer and go to the hospital- they'll say too bad, come up with the money (hundreds and hundreds of thousands) or get the fuck out and die someplace. Of course from a quality standpoint, private healthcare in America is better than public healthcare in Venezuela, I'm not even trying to argue otherwise. Just realize that for 45 million people the shittiness of the Venezuelan healthcare system is a luxury that the American system doesn't even begin to afford them.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Don't get me wrong ballijuana, I agree with you on a number of things, but picking Venezuela as an example of how a country should be run is absolutely ludicrous.

[balli]

Don't get me wrong ballijuana, I agree with you on a number of things, but picking Venezuela as an example of how a country should be run is absolutely ludicrous.

Cool and no hard feelings whatsoever, but I'm not even trying to say Venezuela is a good example of how a country should be run. Originally I was just juxtaposing what their income redistribution goes to as opposed to what America's income redistribution goes to.

Then again, I'm sure Chavez and his homies aren't doing too bad... So I don't really know what I'm trying to say (don't quote that out of context anybody), but right now I'm more ashamed of America than I've ever been before. I'm just pissed off and frankly, scared. Not a good feeling.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Cool and no hard feelings whatsoever, but I'm not even trying to say Venezuela is a good example of how a country should be run. Originally I was just juxtaposing what their income redistribution goes to as opposed to what America's income redistribution goes to.

Then again, I'm sure Chavez and his homies aren't doing too bad... So I don't really know what I'm trying to say (don't quote that out of context anybody), but right now I'm more ashamed of America than I've ever been before. I'm just pissed off and frankly, scared. Not a good feeling.

I won't go into what I think of Chavez 'cause that's a 20 page thread on its own :lol

I get what you're saying though. I understand how you might be a little disillusioned with what's going on in the US. I still think you have it good, but I can see what you're saying.

[CuckingFunt]

i'm talking about blowing up the credit agencies at the end.

You do not talk about Project Mayhem. The rule is still in effect.

[Bandit2981]

It's basically reverse robin hood. Taking from the taxpayers and giving to the huge corporations. If the taxpayers now own 80% of AIG, where's my check?

[AlamoSpursFan]

Edit: And a big part of the reason that Cuba's healthcare is so terrible is because of the US trade embargo that purposefully denies Cuba's access to pharmaceuticals.

Cuba still gets plenty from the rest of the world. (Edit: Cuba still has access to plenty from the rest of the world. Access that is denied from within. See next line.)

A big part of the reason that Cuba's healthcare is so terrible is because there are still Castros alive and kicking.

But they do have those kickass rice cookers...

:lol

[Tree hugger]

I ask again, why my money that I work very hard for, should go to pay for someone else?

Why is it my responsibility?



Quote form T Park


Mouse get a fucking job! and stop living off my taxes!

Bitch it's the no job having fools that keep your Carinvals running! :lmao

[01.20.09]

Political forum

[travis2]

Look man. I said I'd bet that their healthcare is piss-poor. I said that.

I'm just saying, there are 45 million people in America who don't even have piss-poor healthcare. If you're one of them, you get cancer and go to the hospital- they'll say too bad, come up with the money (hundreds and hundreds of thousands) or get the fuck out and die someplace. Of course from a quality standpoint, private healthcare in America is better than public healthcare in Venezuela, I'm not even trying to argue otherwise. Just realize that for 45 million people the shittiness of the Venezuelan healthcare system is a luxury that the American system doesn't even begin to afford them.

And the majority of them don't have healthcare because (1) they're here illegally, or (2) they have access but choose not to purchase any.

Try doing a little REAL research before shooting off that extra asshole you call a mouth. And wikipedia is NOT real research.

[travis2]

2007 numbers

Non-citizens without health coverage: 9,737,000
Earning $50,000-$74,999 w/o coverage: 8,488,000
Earning $75,000 or more w/o coverage: 9,115,000

[Milton.]

Try doing a little REAL research before shooting off that extra asshole you call a mouth.


I was told by kori this type of reply was not acceptable in the club that is what i was told.

[leo_d]

In Cuba and Venezuela they re-distribute monies to pay for healthcare and education. Every single person in Cuba has free medical care. In America they re-distribute monies to pay for a bunch of huge corporations' gigantic and risky mistakes. Meanwhile, in America, there are 45 million people who are shit out of luck if they need a doctor.


And with all the free health care and education the cubans still prefer to risk their lives trying to get to a country where they won`t get any of that.

They just want freedom.

[ploto]

It's basically reverse robin hood. Taking from the taxpayers and giving to the huge corporations. If the taxpayers now own 80% of AIG, where's my check?

And the worst part is- those individuals who owned stock in AIG are up the creek. None of this actually helps those whse stocks plummeted 90% to regain any of the money they lost.

Part of me wants to feel bad for people who are losing homes, but I just can not muster up enough sympathy for people who bought things they can not afford. I did not do that. I did not go out and purchase a home that I never should have. We are not talking about a life necessity such as food or healthcare- we are talking about the choice to purchase a home. I still believe in personal responsibility and people who did this are facing the consequences of their own poor judgement. The institutions that loaned them the money are facing the consequences of their own bad judgement. It worries me that so much of what I encounter in the world today is about saving people from the consequences of their own actions and choices when I truly believe what people need to learn is that there are consequences to your bad choices. It is what I try to teach my child. You made your bed- now, lie in it.

[CosmicCowboy]

I've got a great power point presentation that explains just how this mess happened...is there any way to post it so it can be hot linked?

[travis2]

you need to have it on a server somewhere...

[CosmicCowboy]

Travis...I will e-mail it to you...you're gonna love it.

[BacktoBasics]

And the majority of them don't have healthcare because (1) they're here illegally, or (2) they have access but choose not to purchase any.

Try doing a little REAL research before shooting off that extra asshole you call a mouth. And wikipedia is NOT real research.


Choosing not to purchase it.

Lets say you make 50k a year. Thats about 3,300 a month take home. For say an average family of 3 not 4 but 3 for the sake of the arguement.

Lets say you have a normal house payment at a conservative 760 a month.

Lets say you have one vehicle paid for and another you're paying on at a modest 265 a month. I'll break down the rest as followed

House 760

car 265

insurance for both the vehicles and your home 240

power 175 (unbelievably conservative)

water 30

phone/cable/internet 125

food at 125 weekly for three people 500 monthly not counting 5 week months. Food is getting expensive I find that figure also to be real low.

Gas for 2 vehicles at a very conservative 45 weekly for each comes to 360 monthly.

Lets say you spend a very conservative 1500 annually on clothing, shoes, hair cuts and modest accesories so you don't look homeless and maintain your 50k salary. Thats 125 monthly.

Vehicle and home maintenance at a modest 1000 annually for oil changes, minor repairs and any home repair project or upkeep. 83 a month.

Lets say your not a dick and you eat out once a month 60 bucks.

Lets say you very modestly spend 75 bucks a month on frivolous things like gifts for a family members birthday or anniversary.

Now you're real smart and decide to save a conservative 100 a month for your retirement because you won't have SS when you get older.

You're now sitting at 2,900 a month. Thats very little disposible income considering most people have addition payments like loans, student loans, possibly a second vehicle, credit cards and so forth. I spend 50 bucks alone if I have a BBQ and thats without beer.

I'm sure managable insurance would runs as low as say 400 a month. Most good quality insurance companies cost 600 a month and more. Thats a lot of fucking money. Then you have to co-pays and pill pays and they never cover the full amounts of major surgerys or cancer treatments.

NO FUCKING WAY IT BOILS DOWN TO PEOPLE SIMPLY NOT WANTING TO PAY FOR IT.

Its just not affordablye or reasonable unless you want to take your hard earned heavily taxed income and live in shitsville driving a shit vehicle. Not to mention the maintenance expense associated with a cheaper car or house would likely elcipse higher monthly payments for quality.

[balli]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94771320


It's come to this: One prominent economist now refers to the U.S. as "the United Socialist State Republic of America." And he refers to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson as "comrade."

It's hyperbole. But many economists aren't happy with all the federal intervention that has been going on lately.

Don Boudreaux, a professor at George Mason University in Virginia, says that the Federal Reserve's $85 billion loan to AIG, which comes in exchange for a huge stake in the company, turns the rules of capitalism upside down.

"The basic tenets of capitalism are that you are free to take whatever risks you want as long as you are willing to bear the costs for those risks," says Boudreaux. "And you get the upside of it too. If you have huge gains, great, you get the gains. But no one helps bail you out or subsidize you."

Boudreaux says the government is now serving as a safety net for a corporate titan that should have known better. And taxpayers are stuck with the risk.

A Bad Precedent?

The Fed's deal with American International Group, the world's largest insurance company, followed a federal bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and a government-assisted rescue of the investment bank Bear Stearns.

Boudreaux worries about the precedent. "Other firms either tomorrow or next year are going to suffer problems and there'll be political calls to treat those firms in the same way," he predicts.

There is also an issue of fairness, he says. The government has come to the rescue of a multinational corporation that threatens global finance. But if you're an ordinary citizen, don't count on the same treatment.

Boudreaux says a friend who owns a coffee shop and employs six people wrote to him in jest this morning to pose a question since he, too, is having a tough time: "He was asking me if I thought he could go to Secretary Paulson and ask for a bailout."
Recalling The New Deal

Tyler Cowen, a fellow economist at George Mason, says the last time the federal government intervened like this in the financial sector was during President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. And even then, not at this pace.

Cowen decided to look for other examples of similar government action, anywhere on the globe.

"I did some Googling this morning and I tried to learn in what other countries had this happened," he says. "The only example I could find was Ethiopia. Now, when you are sharing your policy space with Ethiopia and no one else, it's not exactly a good sign."

Lawrence Summers, who served as Treasury secretary under President Clinton, says "there are no attractive choices" for resolving this financial crisis. He says the risks were so great that the government had to be bold.

"The thinking here was that by moving to contain the situation, ultimately risks would be reduced," Summers says. "You know, it's very tempting to always think that the government should stand back and let the private sector sort these problems out. That's the kind of thinking that made the Depression great."

The Case For Intervention

The government decided that AIG was so intertwined with the global banking system that a company collapse could have a cascading effect.

Mark Zandi, co-founder of Moody's Economy.com, a research Web site, says that the financial crisis — if unchecked — could slam the broader population.

"What if the Fed and Treasury did not step in aggressively, and in fact they were right?" says Zandi. "Then the impact on the economy, and on jobs, on incomes, on profits and therefore on tax revenue would be even more serious."

He also says the government has an important psychological role to play at times like these.

"The financial markets are built on faith and trust. And there's no way to restore that faith and trust without the help of an aggressive federal government," Zandi says.

Judging from the continued volatility in the stock market, we have a long way to go before that faith is restored.


Fuck the case for intervention. I don't care about the consequences of not intervening. What this nation needs is some serious consequences; if we're going to spend our time bitching about lipstick and whether Obama is a muslim even as the walls of Babylon are crumbling, I think some true and serious economic hardship is in order. Something to catalyze people out of their ideological stupor.

You subsidize and remove the true consequences of unbridled capitalist/personal greed and you know what you get- a bunch of zombies who only care about lipstick and xenophobia while their government rapes them to subsidize corporate losses. Not only is this a bad precedent in terms of economic practice, it's also setting a very dangerous ideological precedent in that American society is accepting something that just should not be, all in the name of avoiding consequences. I find that mind state sickening.

[AlamoSpursFan]

The rest of the economy may be fucked, but I just looked at my 401k and my Pepsico stock options. The richers keep getting richer! Cha-CHING!!!

:eyebrows

[CosmicCowboy]

There are a lot of banks out there that have acted responsibly and didn't get caught up in the frenzy. The banks that acted irresponsibly and took on the high flying/high risk/high return investments are now being rewarded, their losses assumed by the taxpayers and the prudent banks are being penalized by having to continue to compete against these. This is just plain wrong. I could live with the taxpayers assuming the bad debts if they shut these crooks down, eliminated their outrageous executive salaries and bonuses, and liquidated their assets but we are just assuming their bad debts and letting them continue to operate.

[spurster]

Don't worry CC, it will only cost $1 trillion or so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/washington/19cnd-cong.html

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

What a freakin pathetic move by the US government. They are just setting up the circumstances for it to happen all over again! The US has been "growing" on paper debt backed by nothing for years, and its time that some semblance of reason and balance is brought back into the financial system, but this move won't make that happen. It will simply delay the inevitable pain when the debt has to be repaid or written off.


My money shouldn't be redistributed for anything other than infrastructure and defense.

Anything else is a waste and a BS reason for spending my tax dollars.

Yeah, just forget the cornerstones of all successful societies, namely education and health care. Yeah, and forget the old and the poor and the vulnerable... :rolleyes

Who was it that said that a society is truly measured by its level of care for its weaker members?

[MiamiHeat]

I am absolutely in love with the current housing market. I am making a killing. Now is the perfect time to buy under valued homes from panicked homeowners. I've already bought 3 homes below (very much) market value for a total of about 630k in total profit.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Agree with the OP. Capitalism is dead. And we're well on our way to killing our democracy as well. :td

[Heath Ledger]

Our great country?
Lol
America is no longer great unless you are rich. Have you not figured that out yet?

This country is a shell of it's former self. Land of the free? Wtf is exactly free these days? Oh our freedom? Lol that's a joke without a punchline. I'm at the point where I've almost decided to not have children because I don't want to bring them up in this shithole.

[Heath Ledger]

Oh if your money is in Wamu get it the fuck out right now.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I ask again, why my money that I work very hard for, should go to pay for someone else?

Why is it my responsibility?

It's a little thing called the "social contract". Look it up. You might learn something.

Take your idea to it's logical end - you opt out, so does everyone else, and basically you have no society. We all take for granted the machinery that goes into running a well-ordered society such as yours or mine, but without taxes there is no society and you'd end up in Mad Max's world, in which you and I would last about 2 seconds before someone bigger, stronger and meaner killed us. Think of your taxes as an investment in living longer and happier. :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's a little thing called the "social contract". Look it up. You might learn something.

Take your idea to it's logical end - you opt out, so does everyone else, and basically you have no society. We all take for granted the machinery that goes into running a well-ordered society such as yours or mine, but without taxes there is no society and you'd end up in Mad Max's world, in which you and I would last about 2 seconds before someone bigger, stronger and meaner killed us. Think of your taxes as an investment in living longer and happier. :lol

There's a difference between paying taxes to cover things like roads, fire, medical (EMT), police, etc. and bailing out idiots who were only making $40K a year but bought a $250K house because they got a great teaser rate ARM.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I think the govt bailing these banks out is lame

cause alot of ppl who have deposits will be affected by losing the lot, but they will get a reimbursement by the government.

[Das Texan]

i hope the balance i'm fixing to have on this credit card i just got with wamu is eradicated when they go under. That would be cool.


Just wait until my balance transfers over. :lol

[alamo50]

Wow..... everything realy is possible in the US!

[Shelly]

My profit sharing stocks were with Merrill Lynch. My dad is friends with the broker that handles our profit sharing and this is what my dad said about the buyout (I had asked him if our broker had any idea of the buyout).

ML will operate separately from BofA. There may be some rewording of the name. Broker said BofA has wanted to buy ML for years, but ML stock was too high. After the meltdown over the last few months it became so attractive that BofA paid premium of $10 a share. It should not affect us in anyway

[Clandestino]

My profit sharing stocks were with Merrill Lynch. My dad is friends with the broker that handles our profit sharing and this is what my dad said about the buyout (I had asked him if our broker had any idea of the buyout).

ML will operate separately from BofA. There may be some rewording of the name. Broker said BofA has wanted to buy ML for years, but ML stock was too high. After the meltdown over the last few months it became so attractive that BofA paid premium of $10 a share. It should not affect us in anyway

That is what they have to say because they are losing a lot of clients. Trying to put up the "business as usual" sign.

Guess what? Their business as usual caused them to lose over 50 BILLION dollars. They WILL NOT operate separate from BofA. Many brokers from Merrill will leave to private firms or places like Raymond James, LPL, etc. They don't want to be told what to do by BofA.

[Shelly]

Well, our broker is staying and he's a good friend of my dad's, so I will take his word for it.

[ChumpDumper]

That is what they have to say because they are losing a lot of clients. Trying to put up the "business as usual" sign.

Guess what? Their business as usual caused them to lose over 50 BILLION dollars. They WILL NOT operate separate from BofA. Many brokers from Merrill will leave to private firms or places like Raymond James, LPL, etc. They don't want to be told what to do by BofA.So the brokers that leave want to keep doing the things that lost ML over $50 billion?

[Clandestino]

Of course you would. No reason to leave him as long as he has taken care of you guys.

However, everyone in the industry(including him) knows that Merrill will no longer play by their own rules. BofA will make their rules. Banks are also generally more conservative in nature. I have already spoken to a few ML clients that say they are prohibited from buying certain products they used to buy. ML can't/won't sell them anymore.

[Clandestino]

So the brokers that leave want to keep doing the things that lost ML over $50 billion?

No, just want dont want to be told how to manage their own books. Bank brokerages are more conservative and many cowboys such as ML, UBS, etc wouldn't want to work by someone else's rules when they've essentially had none.

[ChumpDumper]

No, just want dont want to be told how to manage their own books. Bank brokerages are more conservative and many cowboys such as ML, UBS, etc wouldn't want to work by someone else's rules when they've essentially had none.But you just said the cowboys lost $50 billion doing it their way.

[Clandestino]

But you just said the cowboys lost $50 billion doing it their way.

Merrill Lynch the company.

Not all the brokers sold the risky stuff.

[ChumpDumper]

Merrill Lynch the company.

Not all the brokers sold the risky stuff.So the ones that didn't cost the company $50 billion are staying.

[Clandestino]

So the ones that didn't cost the company $50 billion are staying.

some will go to because they don't want to play by BofA's rules.

[ChumpDumper]

But their investments wouldn't have been much riskier than BofA's will, so what does it matter?

[Shelly]

I'm not sure if this has to do with what y'all are talking about, but it apparently wasn't news to ML that BofA has been trying to buy them.

[Clandestino]

I'm not sure if this has to do with what y'all are talking about, but it apparently wasn't news to ML that BofA has been trying to buy them.

That is what your broker says.

ML CEO was in meeting with the FEDs and a lot of other CEOs trying to figure out what to do with Lehman and AIG. He then realized his company was fucked and called BofA CEO to offer themselves up or face bankruptcy. It was reported in WSJ, Bloomberg, etc.

ML was never in jeapoardy of being bought out by ANYONE until they screwed everything up. Your broker is trying to sugar coat one the most prominent companies in the investment world being bought out in disgrace.

[Clandestino]

But their investments wouldn't have been much riskier than BofA's will, so what does it matter?

That is not true. All brokerage firms don't sell every single investment in the market.

[Clandestino]

BTW, same way many AG Edwards brokers left and got pissed off when Wachovia bought them.

[Anti.Hero]

How funny is it that BoA of all fucking companies got to gobble up some victims.

Ain't that a bitch.

[Clandestino]

How funny is it that BOA of all fucking companies got to gobble up some victims.

Ain't that a bitch.

We'll see how funny it is. They also took on Countrywide which has been regarded by many as a shitty deal.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

There's a difference between paying taxes to cover things like roads, fire, medical (EMT), police, etc. and bailing out idiots who were only making $40K a year but bought a $250K house because they got a great teaser rate ARM.

Totally agree, as I said in my post near the top of page 3. No way the govt should assume bad risks taken on by the financial sector.

My response to T Park was in relation to his claim that all his taxes should go to pay for is "infrastructure and defense", and why should he pay for anything else. Because there is a lot more to pay for to make a society successful (eg. education, health care) was my first answer, and then I decided to push him in the direction of 300 years of philosophy that underlies our modern nations (ie. the social contract). I don't believe he'll actually bother to go and learn something, but I had to try. ;) :lol

[travis2]

The problem lies in what is included in the words "social contract".

[MannyIsGod]

Well they have to do this CC. My only problem is in how they are doing it. Paulson's initial draft of legislation is outrageously unconstitutional and wouldn't stand in court for one day. Its outrageous.

But really they have to do something because of just how far reaching the effect of these mortgages is. They've devalued so much to the piont where these guys have no capital on hand and no ability to get credit. The further devaluation of assets was inevitable which would lead to even lower credit ratings at places that weren't initially involved. It starts a shitty financial domino effect that simply cascades until you see a very large sum of companies go under. You'd basically see the collapse of the American financial system which is not good for any of us.

What Paulson wants - and Barack hit the nail on the head with the term - is a blank check. And this is the guy that keeps telling us after every failure and meltdown that it was over. He was continously wrong and now he wants carte blache? Yeah how about no?

How the fuck is it that the Democrats are the responsible economic party right now? They're going to add a bunch of crap to this bill - of that I'm sure - but they're probably also the only reason Paulson may not get a free hand to do whatever the fuck he wants.

[Heath Ledger]

Meanwhile at the batcave, Wamu Fails! As predicted by me just a few days ago.

[SpursWoman]

Meanwhile at the batcave, Wamu Fails! As predicted by me just a few days ago.


My SIL is a branch manager of a WaMu here ... she sent me her resume about a week or two ago because of rumors she'd heard about it. Just in case. :(

[Clandestino]

Meanwhile at the batcave, Wamu Fails! As predicted by me just a few days ago.

hey genius this was widely known since the beginning of the year!:lol

[BacktoBasics]

I'm not so sure a full on collapes is all that bad. The system all the way from how credit is calculated to how its given out is a complete failure.

We've gone from everyone getting credit to it being almost impossible to get a loan unless its through a small credit union.

Breaking down completely may open up a more efficient avenue for how lending is done.