Buck Harvey: A Spurs mistake from the other side

[Spurs Brazil]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/buck_harvey/A_Spurs_mistake_from_the_other_side.html

A Spurs mistake from the other side
Buck Harvey

The Spurs missed on Josh Howard. His opinion of “The Star-Spangled Banner” doesn't change that.

The Spurs should have drafted him in 2003. The only issue would have been how the Spurs would have eventually fit him into their payroll, but they would have found a way.

He's too good. They would be better now — and maybe favorites — if they had him.

But as Howard acts less mature with every word he utters, there's reason to wonder if he was the real loser of that draft-day decision. Had he been with the Spurs all these years, he would have won championships; he might have helped the team win another, too, in 2006.

He also would have hung around with another Wake Forest alum, and he would have plugged into an attitude that believes boring news is good news. This is where Howard's image and life would have detoured.

Had he been with the Spurs all these years, would he be known for anything except winning?

Today he's known for being Cheech and wrong. Last spring, during the playoffs, Howard chose to talk about marijuana use on the radio. During that same series he went against Avery Johnson's directive and had more fun; he threw himself a party.

Then came some street racing, which will send him to a North Carolina court this week. And now comes his infamous opinion of the national anthem.

The oh-say-can-YouTube clip: Howard said he doesn't “celebrate this (bleep). I'm black.”

He will hear about this next season. Then he will earn about $10 million, and he will stand 82 times for “this bleep.”

Who knows? Maybe Mark Cuban is right. Talking to a cell-phone camera just before an Allen Iverson event, Howard could have simply been caught in a careless, flippant moment.

Either way, intent doesn't matter much, no matter how much Cuban tries to divert attention and place it on racist e-mailers. Howard, by any measure, has been a fool.

Howard showed a hint of this in college. According to reports, marijuana rumors hurt his draft status. But the Spurs didn't pass on him because of this. They were less impressed with him than they were other prospects, and besides, they were going after Jason Kidd at the time and wanted the cap room.

The Spurs traded out of the first round, and the Mavericks responded by taking Howard with the very next pick. Howard proved the Spurs were wrong from the tip.

He was a quiet workman, content to take what Dirk Nowitzki didn't want. Able to rebound in a small lineup, able to defend and score and run, Howard would have been perfect with the Spurs.

But they would have been perfect for him, too. And this goes back to Tim Duncan and the culture of his locker room.

When Kurt Thomas arrived last spring, he looked around and thought he had been traded to a Rotary Club. He laughed and told friends the Spurs were unlike any team he had been on.

Thomas also liked them for this very reason. Thomas re-signed, in part, because he enjoys a smart and professional locker room.

This environment can't change everyone. The Spurs, for example, didn't alter even one of Dennis Rodman's brain cells.

They aren't miracle workers, and they know it. They opted not to try to trade for Ron Artest, for example, because they saw him as too far over the edge. The Spurs' success in creating a roster of grown-ups is mostly about signing grown-ups.

Still, the Spurs have always felt a player can be influenced by teammates, and history says that has happened at times. Stephen Jackson wasn't shooting revolvers in strip-club parking lots when he was in San Antonio.

Howard, in comparison, would have been a minor tweak. He instead would have been a rookie surrounded by veterans, and he would have improved as Tony Parker did. He would have adapted to some standards, and he would have understood the basic Duncan premise.

The less you have to say, the better.

Howard likely would have thrived, and he would have won. And when asked to comment on the radio or by cell phone this past year, five years of training would have kicked in.

Wake guys don't say anything crazy, do they?

[Allanon]

I had forgotten about that.
Josh Howard could certainly have had a totally different career if he had been with the Spurs instead. Spurs don't take much crap at all. Having outspoken guys like JeT & Stackhouse on your team ain't the greatest influence on a young dude. Add to that, you have Cuban adoring him so really Josh had a really long leash.

I think playing with fellow Wake dude and respected superstar Duncan and a no-bullshit coach like Pop would have been great for him.

For the Spurs perspective, Josh would have been great for them too. But on the other side of the coin, the Spurs had selected Leandro Barbosa instead of Josh Howard. The Spurs then traded Barbosa to the Suns in return for a 2005 pick.

But if the Spurs had kept Barbosa instead, he would have been a great help but without the possible risk of Josh Howard.

So really, the ones that got away would be: Scola, Gist, Splitter, Beno, Barbosa/Howard

[Findog]

Having outspoken guys like JeT & Stackhouse on your team ain't the greatest influence on a young dude.

JET and Stack have been nothing but professionals and good guys to have in the locker room in Dallas. Punching Finley in the nuts doesn't change that.

[duncan228]

Wasn't the Barbosa pick a done deal before the draft? That if he was available at that point the Spurs would pick him for the Suns? I've always thought there was no intention of the Spurs keeping him.

Is my memory going?

[1Parker1]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Hindsight is always 20/20.

You don't know for sure if Howard would have taken in to Duncan and Pop's attitude. So all this speculation is pretty moot. Yes, the Spurs would have been infinitely better with Howard the past few seasons...and perhaps they would have been able to repeat in 2006 for the first time in franchise history. But, how many other teams passed on Howard that could make the same argument?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Wasn't the Barbosa pick a done deal before the draft?

Indeed. :tu

[m33p0]

sigh

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yup, Allanon is a good guy for a Laker fan, but he's twisting history there. Barbosa was drafted for the Suns, no chance we ever got him. And Beno, well, he had his chance.

The only guys that really got away from us were Scola (an ownership decision to save money that sucked balls) and Splitter (blame the sinking US dollar and taxes for that one - still bites though). As for Gist, he'd be playing here if the team wanted him. they obviously don't for whatever reason.

[Allanon]

Yup, Allanon is a good guy for a Laker fan, but he's twisting history there. Barbosa was drafted for the Suns, no chance we ever got him.

Hahah, don't blame it on me, blame it on Buck. He started it with the whole Josh Howard thing...I figured if they could have gotten Josh Howard, they could have gotten Barbosa. It seems like the Spurs just gave up on that year's draft for a pick a different year. For some reason, the Spurs just felt nobody was worth it that year (that low) and decided to trade for a future Suns protected 1st round pick. It wasn't involved in a different trade (at the time), the Spurs just didn't want a pick that year.



And Beno, well, he had his chance.
I think the Spurs were too quick on Beno, they only gave him a few minutes per game for the 3 years he was there then shipped him off. I think he's still more useful than guys like Vaughn, Stoudamire, or really anybody that backs up Tony Parker.



The only guys that really got away from us were Scola (an ownership decision to save money that sucked balls) and Splitter (blame the sinking US dollar and taxes for that one - still bites though). As for Gist, he'd be playing here if the team wanted him. they obviously don't for whatever reason.

To be honest, I don't understand the whole Gist thing. Gist is a small forward and the only small forward the Spurs really have is Bowen. Ime's undersized for a small forward, guys like Diaw would have a field day with him.

Why would the Spurs let their only legitimate sized small forward go? And of course, if Gist becomes anybody good in Europe, the Spurs won't be able to afford him ala Splitter.

[lefty]

Even Buck Harvey can't wait for the season to start

[m33p0]

if the FO didn't come up with that trade-for-Kidd idea, Howard would have been a Spur and Spurstalk wouldn't be plagued with long-3 threads.

[my2sons]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Hindsight is always 20/20.

You don't know for sure if Howard would have taken in to Duncan and Pop's attitude. So all this speculation is pretty moot. Yes, the Spurs would have been infinitely better with Howard the past few seasons...and perhaps they would have been able to repeat in 2006 for the first time in franchise history. But, how many other teams passed on Howard that could make the same argument?

No, but human nature gives into cutural pressures and the culture in the locker room in sa would have been more condusive to correct some of his lapses in judgement. The when in rome mentality

[Kori Ellis]

I think the Spurs were too quick on Beno, they only gave him a few minutes per game for the 3 years he was there then shipped him off. I think he's still more useful than guys like Vaughn, Stoudamire, or really anybody that backs up Tony Parker.

If Beno wasn't so lazy, came to camp in shape, or cared about improving, then things would have been different. Beno dug his own grave here. I think the Spurs weren't quick enough.

[Allanon]

If Beno wasn't so lazy, came to camp in shape,

I thought that was Shaq :D

But seriously, I didn't know Beno was lazy with the Spurs, I just thought he was constantly in Pop's doghouse for not listening on the court and sometimes careless with the ball.

[hater]

JET and Stack have been nothing but professionals and good guys to have in the locker room in Dallas. Punching Finley in the nuts doesn't change that.

:lol they are both idiots who talk dumb shit in front of the media. bitch about refs, bitch about this, that, etc. Bad, bad influence

[SpurSupremacist]

And Beno, well, he had his chance.

Really? When was that? When he was getting in the game for 5 minutes? And then if he was lucky, he'd eat up 15 in garbage time... you talking about then?

Popovich clearly handled Beno extremely well. He is a real developer of talent. He was clearly just a terrible basketball player with terrible work ethic. So terrible, in fact, that he immediately started for the Kings and played extremely well. I'm fairly certain Jacque Vaughn, Damon Stoudemire or George Hill could have put up those same numbers.

...


NNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT.

[SpurSupremacist]

I think the Spurs were too quick on Beno, they only gave him a few minutes per game for the 3 years he was there then shipped him off. I think he's still more useful than guys like Vaughn, Stoudamire, or really anybody that backs up Tony Parker.

Hey, come on! Don't go out on the limb there, guy.

[m33p0]

Really? When was that? When he was getting in the game for 5 minutes? And then if he was lucky, he'd eat up 15 in garbage time... you talking about then?

Popovich clearly handled Beno extremely well. He is a real developer of talent. He was clearly just a terrible basketball player with terrible work ethic. So terrible, in fact, that he immediately started for the Kings and played extremely well. I'm fairly certain Jacque Vaughn, Damon Stoudemire or George Hill could have put up those same numbers.

...


NNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT.
There's this Tony Parker dude. and the Kings had no choice but to play Beno since they've run out of point guards.
:troll

[SpurSupremacist]

But seriously, I didn't know Beno was lazy with the Spurs, I just thought he was constantly in Pop's doghouse for not listening on the court and sometimes careless with the ball.

I'm sure he wasn't. I'm pretty sure Popovich just doesn't like guys that have swag. Probably because he was acne-ridden and never got laid until he got a high-paying job.

As far as mistakes on the court, I watched every game Beno ever played in. I knew that the guy could ball from day 1. Popovich ruined this guy. He could have been a legit 18 points 5 assists guy for the rest of his career. He fucked his development up entirely. No if, ands or buts about it.

[Allanon]

Hey, come on! Don't go out on the limb there, guy.

I think I detect just a little bit of sarcasm there.

And I agree that Beno looked like he had talent, I think there was a personal dislike/differences between Pop and Beno or they couldn't communicate or something. Beno tore the Lakers a new one so maybe I'm a bit biased.

It's gonna hurt even more if Beno has another breakout season on the Kings this year (46% Field Goal, 39% on 3's is pretty impressive already)

[SpurSupremacist]

There's this Tony Parker dude. and the Kings had no choice but to play Beno since they're run out of point guards.
:troll

Really? I'm not sure what Tony Parker has to do with Jacque Vaughn eating up his minutes... but hey... I guess that makes sense.... .....

[m33p0]

Really? When was that? When he was getting in the game for 5 minutes? And then if he was lucky, he'd eat up 15 in garbage time... you talking about then?

Popovich clearly handled Beno extremely well. He is a real developer of talent. He was clearly just a terrible basketball player with terrible work ethic. So terrible, in fact, that he immediately started for the Kings and played extremely well. I'm fairly certain Jacque Vaughn, Damon Stoudemire or George Hill could have put up those same numbers.

...


NNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT.


Really? I'm not sure what Tony Parker has to do with Jacque Vaughn eating up his minutes... but hey... I guess that makes sense.... .....
Hay... i guess i have to bold out your own words.

[SpurSupremacist]

Hay... i guess i have to bold out your own words.

I fail to see the connection. In fact, there isn't one.

[m33p0]

I fail to see the connection. In fact, there isn't one.
disconnected train of thought. i may have to draw a diagram. you pointed out that "He(Popovich) is a real developer of talent." clear sarcasm on your part. I introduced Tony Parker as evidence to contrary. Your response was out of confusion which is negligible.

[SpurSupremacist]

disconnected train of thought. i may have to draw a diagram. you pointed out that "He(Popovich) is a real developer of talent." clear sarcasm on your part. I introduced Tony Parker as evidence to contrary. Your response was out of confusion which is negligible.

Oh, he did, did he? He developed Tony Parker so well, that he was sitting on the bench for the majority of the NBA finals. It wasn't until a shooting coach was brought in that he made any significant improvement to his game.

I regret to inform you that Gregg Popovich did not teach him how to be fast or quick.

[anakha]

Oh, he did, did he? He developed Tony Parker so well, that he was sitting on the bench for the majority of the NBA finals.


Which Finals did Parker spend the majority of the time on the bench? Sure wasn't the 2003 Finals:

http://www.nba.com/games/20030604/NJNSAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030606/NJNSAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030608/SASNJN/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030611/SASNJN/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030613/SASNJN/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030615/NJNSAS/boxscore.html

Could it have been the 2005 Finals? No, not here either:

http://www.nba.com/games/20050609/DETSAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050612/DETSAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050614/SASDET/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050616/SASDET/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050619/SASDET/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050621/DETSAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/boxscore.html

Or, by chance, were you referring to the 2007 Finals? Still not seeing it:

http://www.nba.com/games/20070607/CLESAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20070610/CLESAS/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20070612/SASCLE/boxscore.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20070614/SASCLE/boxscore.html

So, what exactly was your argument again?

[my2sons]

Oh, he did, did he? He developed Tony Parker so well, that he was sitting on the bench for the majority of the NBA finals. It wasn't until a shooting coach was brought in that he made any significant improvement to his game.

I regret to inform you that Gregg Popovich did not teach him how to be fast or quick.

you are talking about the year that the spurs got the trophy right. hmm strong argument against pop

[ambchang]

We can see clearly that Beno has put in the necessary work to understand the Spurs plays and defensive schemes such that he can immediately start on the Kings once he got traded.

Oh wait, the two teams run totally different plays and have different philosophies, my bad.

[SenorSpur]

I had forgotten about that.
Josh Howard could certainly have had a totally different career if he had been with the Spurs instead. Spurs don't take much crap at all. Having outspoken guys like JeT & Stackhouse on your team ain't the greatest influence on a young dude. Add to that, you have Cuban adoring him so really Josh had a really long leash.

I think playing with fellow Wake dude and respected superstar Duncan and a no-bullshit coach like Pop would have been great for him.

For the Spurs perspective, Josh would have been great for them too. But on the other side of the coin, the Spurs had selected Leandro Barbosa instead of Josh Howard. The Spurs then traded Barbosa to the Suns in return for a 2005 pick.

But if the Spurs had kept Barbosa instead, he would have been a great help but without the possible risk of Josh Howard.

So really, the ones that got away would be: Scola, Gist, Splitter, Beno, Barbosa/Howard

I agree and I don't give the Spurs a pass on this. Considering the fact that SJAX rebuffed the Spurs initial contract offer during that same summer, there was a glaring, gaping, hole at the swing spot that needed to be filled immediately. Since that summer of '03, the Spurs have ushered several swingman wannabes and "has-beens" through here with very little success. Still they've not been able to adequately replace the void created when Jack left town. If they had, many of us wouldn't still be clamoring for the mythical "long-three" that PopoClaus has yet to acquire.

I've roundly criticized the Spurs for their short-sighted decision to pass on Howard, while focusing unwarranted attention and dollars in pursuit of JKidd. It simply made no sense - especially when there was an obvious void to fill. The fact that the Mavs chose him with the next pick only compounded the mistake.

I have no doubt that Howard surely would've worked well in a Spurs uniform. As good as Howard is now, I personally believe he would've been a better, all-around player under Pop and surrounding by the Spurs veterans. As has already been stated, there's no way to measure the effects of the Spurs culture and environment would have had on Howard's behavior, but it's a dilemma they surely could've lived with.

Furthermore, if you're Spurs management, what dilemma would you rather have today? Josh Howard, his talent and his petulent behavior at a reasonable contract or JKidd and his declining skills @ $20mil per season and no Parker or Ginobili? Don't forget, had Kidd elected to come play with Duncan, either TP or Ginobili surely would've been gone.

[Dramon]

The thing that everyone keeps forgetting about his breakout season is that Beno Udrih also turned into a turnover machine. He averaged 2.3 turnovers a game for only 4.3 assists. But that doesn't even tell the full story because it also averages in the games where he didnt get as minutes when Bibby came back.

Beno needs big minutes and lots of shots to be effective on offense. Look at his gamelog for the past season and all his big games he played 35+ minutes. When Bibby came back and Beno went back to a backup role his numbers dropped dramatically.

If the Spurs could take Udrih back right now I don't think he'd as big of an improvement from Vaughn as everyone thinks he would. He'd be an upgrade but not as much with only around 15 minutes a game.