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duncan228
09-22-2008, 10:00 PM
Many teams still relying on old-timers to contribute (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8591444/Many-teams-still-relying-on-old-timers-to-contribute)
by Charley Rosen

The accepted wisdom is that in the absence of any debilitating injuries, the peak of an NBA player's career usually lasts only four years, between his 28th and his 32nd birthdays. That's when his body is still sprightly and he's presumably learned what the game is all about.

Of course, several players have stretched their peak seasons far beyond these boundaries — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Robert Parish, Kevin Willis, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller and John Stockton — just to name a few.

Moreover, there are a number of geriatric survivors who are still getting paid to play: Dikembe Mutombo (42), Sam Cassell (soon to be 39), Bo Outlaw (37) and Darrell Armstrong (40). But at this stage in their respective careers, all of these guys are of marginal importance to their teams' fortunes.

However, there remains a large group of aging players whose production (or lack thereof) during the upcoming season will be key factors in the overall success or failure of their ball clubs.

Let's take a look at some of these players — who currently perform for contending teams and who are on the downhill side of their careers — and estimate what might be expected of them as they gear up for another long, grinding campaign.

Phoenix

The Suns are loaded with old-timers, the most noticeable being Shaquille O'Neal (age 36). While the word is that Shaq has been diligently working out during the offseason, his lack of explosiveness, diminished defense and fading board work are already past the point of resurrection. Also, given all the years he's hauled his overweight body up and down the court, injuries (both nagging and devastating) are likely to plague the rest of his career.

Look for Shaq to start the season in fine fashion, but then to fade as the games pile up. By the turn of the year, he'll probably be limited to one top-notch outing per week. Grant Hill (35) is another Sun whose game is setting. Always susceptible to injuries, Hill is playing on borrowed time. His impact has certainly lessened over the years, but Hill remains a solid performer — dependable, savvy and even inspirational. Last season was the first time he's appeared in 70 or more games since 1999-2000, but his unavailability for much of the playoffs was costly for Phoenix.

Even with his playing time carefully monitored, it's hard to imagine Hill's being at full strength when the money season rolls around.

Steve Nash (34) is much stronger than his comparatively frail physique might indicate. Even so, with Mike D'Antonio taking his running and gunning to New York, the Suns will certainly play a much more deliberate style. Because there's much more physical contact in a half-court game plan than in an uptempo one, Nash is certain to be banged and bounced more than he has been in the past. And with two rookies — Sean Singletary and Goran Dagic — now in supporting roles behind Nash, Leandro Barbosa (a natural two-guard) remains as the Suns' primary backup at the point.

The probable outcome is that if Nash isn't limping by next Easter, he'll certainly be more sore, tired and worn out than he ever has been.

In addition to their opponents-of-the-moment, the Suns' most significant battles will be with Father Time.

Dallas

The Mavericks have a quartet of players on the cusp of their dotage, with Jason Kidd (35) being the oldest and the most significant. Since his micro-fracture surgery, J-Kidd has lost about a half-step each succeeding season. Whereas he used to be a defensive ace, he can no longer keep up with quick-stepping point guards. As a corollary to Kidd's diminished speed and quickness, the Mavs will not be able to run themselves into as many open-court shots as before.

Still, Kidd is durable, unselfish and a leader. With a full training camp to get in synch with his teammates, look for Kidd — and the Mavs — to make whatever adjustments are necessary to maintain his standing as one of the NBA's premier playmakers.

Erick Dampier (33) was born with foul trouble, but if his minutes are therefore abbreviated, they are also meaningful. There should be no drop-off in his game.

On the other hand, Jerry Stackhouse (33) is close to the end of his usefulness, as is Eddie Jones (37). New coach Rick Carlisle will be more than satisfied if he can get a combined 10-15 minutes of plus-play per week from both of these guys.

Detroit

The Pistons are in the predicament of having two veteran front-court players approaching the clubhouse turn of their careers. As Rasheed Wallace (34) approaches senior citizenship, he's become ever more reluctant to get involved in the physical exertions inherent in playing the low post. For sure, the constant pounding in the paint is more draining than it was when Rasheed was younger and less wise — but for the Pistons to battle their way back to elite status, he must be ready, willing and able to play elbow-to-chest with the league's other bigs.

Not even the Shadow knows how Rasheed will react to a necessary return to the pivot.

The decline of Antonio McDyess (34) was hastened by major knee surgery a few years back. Look for his daylight to be gradually eclipsed by Jason Maxiell and Kwame Brown.

San Antonio

The Spurs are faced with the prospect of a matching pair of wingmen losing their chops in tandem. The continued defensive excellence of Bruce Bowen (37) is a must for the Spurs to seriously challenge for control of the Western Conference. Bowen will undoubtedly be as tough and as on-the-edge of foul play as ever, but his speed and quickness are in question. Last year he showed signs that he can no longer stay in touch with fleet-footed opponents, a failing that should be exacerbated this season. From now on, Bowen's main function will be to hold the fort until Ime Udoka is ready to step up and replace him. It says here that Udoka is still a year away.

Meanwhile, Michael Finley (35) hasn't played adequate defense in many moons. But as long as he can pull-up going left, then fade and shoot with a high degree of success (especially in clutch situations), he can be a valuable part-time performer. However, as his ability to play defense continues to decrease, his shooting percentage must increase in order to justify more than occasional playing time. With only DerMarr Johnson and Roger Mason behind him and with Manu Ginobili recovering from foot surgery, Finley will get more time than he deserves early on.

Finley's relative decrepitude bodes ill for the Spurs.

Cleveland

The Cavaliers' starting bigs are both teetering on the edge of oblivion. Zydrunas Ilguaskas might be the oldest 33-year-old in the history of the NBA. His body is fragile, his feet are post-surgical and it seems as though his career might come to a sudden end by the possibility of his tripping over the time-line as he gallops up and down the court. As it is, Ziggy will get fewer touches now that Mo Williams is on board, which means the Cavs will have no real inside threat.

In any case, look for Ilgauskas to become more of a mid-range jump shooter.

Ben Wallace (34) has been ready for the glue factory for two seasons. His last gasp translates into one excellent game every two weeks, one good game every week and a host of near-invisible non-appearances.

Boston

The Celtics' lone candidate for impending social insecurity is Ray Allen (33). With a history of strained, pulled, torn and dislocated body parts, Allen is always at risk to get much older in a hurry. But without Allen's outside threat, Kevin Garnett will always be surrounded by defenders whenever he posts up. In other words, sans a healthy Allen, the Celtics are also-rans. That's why Allen's playing time must be greatly curtailed during the regular season.

Los Angeles Lakers

The Lakers are hoping that Jordan Farmar will be able to assume most of Derek Fisher's playing time as the season progresses. For sure, Fish (34) is still clutch, and no other point guard in the league plays better position defense than he does. But as his sneakers get heavier with each passing season, he's become more of a mark on defense — particularly in non-defense of high screen/rolls, which also happens to match Farmar's primary defensive weakness. Fortunately for the Lakers, the triangle offense reduces the traditional duties of point guards. So if Sasha Vujacic can calm down and learn to see the whole court, he's another candidate to stand in for Fisher.

Even so, it's a good bet that Fisher will continue to take any clutch shots that might be denied to Kobe Bryant.

With the commencement of the NBA's 62nd season, the play of the above-mentioned old-timers will go a long way to settle an even older question: Are wise heads more valuable than young legs?

duncan228
09-22-2008, 10:04 PM
I found this before I found the Rosen piece. Thought they made an interesting set.

Youth vs. Experience (http://ballerblogger.com/2008/09/22/youth-vs-experience/)
By Brandon Hoffman

Charley Rosen of FOXSports.com:

“The accepted wisdom is that in the absence of any debilitating injuries, the peak of an NBA player’s career usually lasts only four years, between his 28th and his 32nd birthdays. That’s when his body is still sprightly and he’s presumably learned what the game is all about.”

NBA teams walk a fine line when it comes balancing youth and experience. There’s no substitute for experience and athleticism. But the only way to attain experience is to go through the battles and accumulate the mileage. And that wear and tear takes its toll, eventually leading to decreased quickness and leaping ability.

Perhaps no series personified the battle between youth and experience more than last year’s Western Conference Semifinal matchup between the San Antonio Spurs and New Orleans Hornets.

San Antonio

Manu Ginobili: 30 years, 34.9 minutes per game.
Tim Duncan: 32 years, 38.0 minutes per game.
Tony Parker: 25 years, 37.4 minutes per game.
Michael Finley: 34 years, 19.1 minutes per game.
Brent Barry: 36 years, 9.0 minutes per game.
Bruce Bowen: 36 years, 32.4 minutes per game.
Ime Udoka: 30 years, 16.4 minutes per game.
Fabricio Oberto: 32 years, 20.7 minutes per game.
Kurt Thomas: 35 years, 15.9 minutes per game.
Robert Horry: 37 years, 9.7 minutes per game.

Average age: 33

New Orleans

Chris Paul: 22 years, 40.6 minutes per game.
David West: 27 years, 40.3 minutes per game.
Peja Stojakovic: 30 years, 38.7 minutes per game.
Jannero Pargo: 28 years, 18.9 minutes per game.
Tyson Chandler: 25 years, 33.7 minutes per game.
Morris Peterson: 30 years, 26.0 minutes per game.
Julian Wright: 20 years, 12.3 minutes per game.
Bonzi Wells: 31 years, 12.4 minutes per game.

Average age: 27

The Hornets ran the Spurs ragged in their three victories against the defending NBA champions. New Orleans won Game’s 1, 2, and 5 by an average of twenty points. But when the chips were down, age trumped youth as the Spurs defeated the Hornets in Game’s 6 and 7 to advance to the Western Conference Finals.

What was the difference in that series?

The Spurs had players that had been through the battles and delivered in pressure situations. San Antonio received next to nothing from their bench corps during their three losses, but Robert Horry, Ime Udoka, and Michael Finley came through in back-to-back elimination games.

New Orleans wasn’t as battle-tested. Hornets coach Byron Scott was forced to shorten his rotation to eight players in Game 7, two of those eight players (Bonzi Wells, Melvin Ely) played less than six minutes.

Youth can carry a team to the finish line, but experience is more often than not the difference between victory and defeat.

Will James Posey provide New Orleans with the basketball savvy they were missing against the Spurs?

Will Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom be better prepared to excel in pressure situations after coming up short in the NBA Finals?

Will Darius Miles, Tony Allen, and Leon Powe make up for the loss of veterans James Posey and P.J. Brown in Boston?

Will LeBron James’ youth, size, and versatility shore up Cleveland’s aging frontcourt?

Are Rodney Stuckey and Jason Maxiell ready to step up to the plate for the Pistons?

Can former MVP’s Steve Nash and Shaquille O’Neal turn back the clock in Phoenix?

Has the championship window slammed shut on the aging Spurs?

There are a number of NBA teams with championship caliber experience. But few NBA teams possess the mix of youth and experience required to win a championship.

Mister Sinister
09-22-2008, 10:12 PM
"Relative decrepitude" made me :lol

Manufan909
09-22-2008, 10:30 PM
Why would he put demarr? Is he getting a traning camp invite?

ChuckD
09-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Why would he put demarr? Is he getting a traning camp invite?

Look closely. Horry's there, too. It's last year's roster.

Allanon
09-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Not really sure where I read it but I had heard DeMarr Johnson's going to the Wizards.

SenorSpur
09-23-2008, 01:04 AM
Surely Demarr was a better option than Salim

tp2021
09-23-2008, 01:11 AM
Surely Demarr was a better option than Salim

Maybe that made him slightly more expensive...which makes him not an option.

bigdog
09-23-2008, 02:18 AM
Besides the arrest, I would have really liked DerMarr on the team.

Manufan909
09-23-2008, 03:05 AM
What team did he play on before the Spurs, anyways?

Tully365
09-23-2008, 03:36 AM
The ages of the starting five of the '95-96 Bulls (72-10)
Jordan, 32
Pippen, 30
Rodman, 34
Harper, 32
Longley, 27

Of the '71-72 Lakers (69-13)
Chamberlain, 35
West, 33
Goodrich, 28
McMillan, 23
Hairston, 29

These are the two teams with the best records in NBA history, and look at their starting rosters... Age matters in the NBA for sure, just not to the extent that a lot of sportswriters say it does. The Spurs beat the younger Hornets, and the Celts beat the younger Lakers. The thing that sunk the Spurs was not age, but an injury to one of their top players-- something that probably also would have sunk the Celtics.

Tully365
09-23-2008, 03:54 AM
Ages of starters for the '98-99 champion Spurs

Robinson, 33
Duncan, 22
Sean E, 30
Elie, 35
AJ, 33

According to Rosen's theory, 60% of these starters were past their primes, and only one was in his prime (between ages of 28-32 according to Rosen). I think his theory is loosely in the ballpark, but there are just too many factors involved to take it too seriously.

angelbelow
09-23-2008, 04:16 AM
without pj celtics might not have beaten the hawks.

Allanon
09-23-2008, 04:26 AM
without pj celtics might not have beaten the hawks.

PJ Brown also played very well against Pau Gasol in the Finals.

mrspurs
09-23-2008, 07:36 AM
Just like I said. Bruce lost a step last season. So did Timmy and Manu. And not because of injuries. And we're supposed to keep up with the younger generation? We had maybe one more shot last season at a ring. But the FO made all those during the season trades that brought in mighty mouse and we still have tiny Kurt. Nothing lasts forever. Bruce sets the tone and TP is our only hope. Find TP some help or he will goto Hollywood. Thats a fact.

duncan228
09-23-2008, 06:35 PM
Not really sure where I read it but I had heard DeMarr Johnson's going to the Wizards.

Wizards sign former Spur (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Wizards_sign_former_Spur.html)

jackseven
09-24-2008, 12:49 PM
A 30 year old is being groomed to take a 36 year old's spot next year.

SCdac
09-24-2008, 02:58 PM
Age and experience definitely shouldn't be taken for granted, but there always seems to be that hurdle in the playoffs where "an extra something" from a bench or role player would really have helped. Assuming one of our "Big 3" isn't at 100% healthy come playoffs (whether it be P. Fasciitis, thigh contusion, or whatever), another player being able to step up could be the difference between a contender and a champion. We've had in the past Stephen Jackson, Malik Rose, Devin Brown, Speedy Claxton, David Robinson, etc... We need players, young or old, that are going to take some of the offensive pressure off Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili who collectively averaged 58 of the Spurs 95 points per game last season.

For comparison, look at the Free-Throw-Attempts from some of the seasons past. A decent indicator (IMO) of which players are getting into the paint, or creating some offense off the dribble.

These are fairly large samples (regular season stats), but take them with a grain of salt and make of them what you want, as they're not post-season records. But, going off these stats, I'm hoping a trend isn't starting to grow of the Spurs being predominantly a four or five person offense (not that the Spurs didn't try for Maggette or anything, just couldn't afford him).

Mahinmi (hopefully not out of the loop this season), Mason Jr., Hill, and Udoka really need to make their presence known this season.

02-03 regular season FTA:

Duncan - 7.8
Rose - 3.9
Parker - 3.5
D. Robinson - 3.3
Ginobili - 2.5
Jackson - 2.3
Smith - 2.2
Claxton - 1.9
Willis - 1.2
Bowen - 1.1
Kerr - 0.5
Ferry - 0.2

04-05 regular season FTA:

Duncan - 6.9
Ginobili - 6.8
Parker - 4.0
G. Robinson - 2.6
Mohammed - 2.4
Rose - 2.0
Brown - 1.9
Barry - 1.7
Horry - 1.5
Bowen - 1.4
Udrih - 1.1
Massenburg - 1.0
Nesterovic - 0.4

06-07 reg. season FTA:

Duncan - 7.1
Ginobili - 5.0
Parker - 4.6
Barry - 1.6
Finley - 1.2
Elson - 1.1
Vaughn - 1.0
Butler - 0.9
Horry - 0.9
Bowen - 0.9
Udrih - 0.8
Oberto - 0.7
Bonner - 0.7

07-08 regular season FTA:

Ginobili - 6.0
Duncan - 5.9
Parker - 5.0
Vaughn - 1.1
Finley - 1.0
Bowen - 0.9
Thomas - 0.9
Udoka - 0.8
Oberto - 0.7
Bonner - 0.7
Barry - 0.7
Horry - 0.6
Elson - 0.6
Stoudemire - 0.3

Anti.Hero
09-24-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't think Ime will ever be quick enough.