Spot Number 39 - Top 50 Spurs

[timvp]

SpursTalk's Top 50 Spurs
1. Tim Duncan
2. David Robinson
3. George Gervin
4. Gregg Popovich
5. Angelo Drossos
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Tony Parker
8. Sean Elliott
9. James Silas
10. Bruce Bowen
11. Larry Kenon
12. Avery Johnson
13. Alvin Robertson
14. Johnny Moore
15. RC Buford
16. Artis Gilmore
17. Peter Holt
18. Mike Mitchell
19. Bob Bass
20. Malik Rose
21. Robert Horry
22. Red McCombs
23. Doug Moe
24. Terry Cummings
25. Mario Elie
26. Willie Anderson
27. Billy Paultz
28. Robert McDermott
29. Stephen Jackson
30. Mark Olberding
31. Stan Albeck
32. Brent Barry
33. Mike Budenholzer
34. Swen Nater
35. Larry Brown
36. Rod Strickland
37. Michael Finley
38. Jaren Jackson

------------------------------

To pass the time until the start of preseason, let's see how SpursTalk.com ranks the Top 50 Spurs. Those eligible for the list include all players, coaches and owners. I don't want to define "top" too narrowly, but I think the best way to do it would be to think of the list as a list of the 50 most influential people who have helped make the Spurs one of the most successful franchises in the history of sport.

For more information on what we are doing, check out this thread (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103061).

In this thread, we will vote for spot number 39. Please place your vote. If you will, also explain in this thread why you voted how you did.

Thanks.



P.S.

Poll options listed in alphabetical order. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, post in the thread and I'll add the person.

Voting will end 2AM CST Wednesday morning.

Please vote only once.

[MajorMike]

Barry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerr


What did Steve Kerr do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

What did Brent Barry do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

Thanks for playing, enjoy your invalid list.

[The Truth #6]

SJax got us back in the game. This is too soon to consider Kerr. What's your obsession with Kerr?

[SenorSpur]

George Johnson was a force in the paint for the Spurs for the two seasons he played ('80 & '81). Despite only playing here for two seasons, he led the NBA in blocked shots during those two seasons. Named to the 1980-81 All Defensive second team.

Wasn't much of a scorer. Even though his forte was defending the paint, rebounding and blocking shots, he was lithe enough and quick enough to run the floor during the Albeck-era of Spurs basketaball.

He gets my vote here.

[urunobili]

George Johnson was a force in the paint for the Spurs for the two seasons he played ('80 & '81). Despite only playing here for two seasons, he led the NBA in blocked shots during those two seasons. Named to the 1980-81 All Defensive second team.

Wasn't much of a scorer. Even though his forte was defending the paint, rebounding and blocking shots, he was lithe enough and quick enough to run the floor during the Albeck-era of Spurs basketaball.

He gets my vote here.

was there a DPOY award back then? did he get it?

[Kona]

Kerr.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

George Johnson was a force in the paint for the Spurs for the two seasons he played ('80 & '81). Despite only playing here for two seasons, he led the NBA in blocked shots during those two seasons. Named to the 1980-81 All Defensive second team.

Wasn't much of a scorer. Even though his forte was defending the paint, rebounding and blocking shots, he was lithe enough and quick enough to run the floor during the Albeck-era of Spurs basketaball.

He gets my vote here.



I like George Johnson...in fact I suggested he get added to this list. Averaging over 3 blocks per game his entire time in San Antonio was impressive. I'll always remember that in his second year on the team his BPG average was higher than his PPG average.

I'm torn on who to vote for at this point. George Johnson is a good pick. In terms of longevity you could vote for Dietrick, or even Del Negro I suppose. Gene Banks still ranks high for me, too.

I've always loved the guys that are fearless out there, and that can excite the crowd. The Rifleman fits that, as does my guy Edgar Jones. Person was clutch that second year with the Spurs hitting over 50% from the floor and from 3 point range in the playoffs. For that same reasoning I liked what David Greenwood brought to the team, although I'm not sure he's worthy of a top 50 spot.

I think I need to ponder this vote a little longer.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

was there a DPOY award back then? did he get it?

I'm not sure, but I don't remember him winning anything like that. But some people forget that George Johnson was already on the backside of his career when he came to SA. He was in his 30's and had already played several years in the NBA, which makes his mobility and shot blocking that much more impressive. In fact I think his career, contribution-wise anyway, was pretty much over after he left the Spurs.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

^^^ I looked it up...there was not a DPOY didn't start until the year after George Johnson left SA.

[SenorSpur]

I'm not sure, but I don't remember him winning anything like that. But some people forget that George Johnson was already on the backside of his career when he came to SA. He was in his 30's and had already played several years in the NBA, which makes his mobility and shot blocking that much more impressive. In fact I think his career, contribution-wise anyway, was pretty much over after he left the Spurs.


You're absolutely right. By the time he arrived in San Antonio, he definitely WAS already in his 11th season. Interesting thing about Johnson's career is that his statistical contributions peaked in Year 8 of his career (his first year with New Jersey). In fact, he recorded his greatest statistical seasons in years 8-13. A period in which he led the NBA in blocked shots 3 out of those 5 seasons (2 with the Spurs). By the time he left the Spurs, he was on the deep backside of his career. His numbers spiraled downward dramatically during his final 3 NBA seasons.

[SenorSpur]

I like George Johnson...in fact I suggested he get added to this list. Averaging over 3 blocks per game his entire time in San Antonio was impressive. I'll always remember that in his second year on the team his BPG average was higher than his PPG average.

I'm torn on who to vote for at this point. George Johnson is a good pick. In terms of longevity you could vote for Dietrick, or even Del Negro I suppose. Gene Banks still ranks high for me, too.

I've always loved the guys that are fearless out there, and that can excite the crowd. The Rifleman fits that, as does my guy Edgar Jones. Person was clutch that second year with the Spurs hitting over 50% from the floor and from 3 point range in the playoffs. For that same reasoning I liked what David Greenwood brought to the team, although I'm not sure he's worthy of a top 50 spot.

I think I need to ponder this vote a little longer.

I thought it'd be a no-brainer for your man the "Wild Helicopter".

BTW, any idea as to where he ended up? Or what's going on with him?

[FromWayDowntown]

What did Steve Kerr do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

What did Brent Barry do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

Thanks for playing, enjoy your invalid list.

I'll put it this way -- Brent Barry played 310 more minutes in one playoff run (554 in 2005) than Steve Kerr played in 3 playoff runs with the Spurs (244 in 1999, 2000, 2003). In Barry's bad playoff season (2007), he got almost as much time for the Spurs as Steve Kerr did in his career. At that, Barry is 10th in franchise history in playoff appearances -- a list that Kerr doesn't sniff.

To say that Kerr is more significant to Spurs history than Brent Barry is pretty myopic to me. 4 shots in one game don't exalt someone to the level that some seem to think Kerr occupies.

But Barry's place in history is more than just minutes and games. There can be no doubt that Barry was huge in Game 1 of the 2005 WCF (bettering Kerr's numbers from Game 6 in 2003 by a substantial margin) and played a terrific floor game for a nervous Spurs team in Game 7 of the 2005 Finals. I'd argue that Barry's Game 1 in Phoenix in 2005 was every bit as big as Kerr's shots in Dallas; perhaps not as dramatic, but substantially important to that team's title.

[2centsworth]

how does Jaren Jackson fall behind Rod Strickland?

[baseline bum]

how does Jaren Jackson fall behind Rod Strickland?

Because Strickland was a superior player in almost every single way for longer than JJ.

[baseline bum]

timvp, how about putting Tim Derk (the original Coyote) on this list?

[FromWayDowntown]

Rodman becomes an interesting case around this point.

Did you know that of the top 13 rebounding games in Spurs history (regular season), 10 belong to Dennis Rodman, including all of the top 7 games? (Duncan has one of the remaining 3, Edgar Jones has another, and Artis Gilmore has the third).

Rodman also has the franchise record for most rebounds in a season, which is more than 300 rebounds ahead of The Admiral's 1000 rebound season in 90-91. It's functionally untouchable. Rodman also has the two most prolific rebounding seasons in Spurs' history with 17.3 rpg in 93-94 and 16.8 rpg in 94-95. To give some perspective to those numbers, the next best rpg average season in Spurs history is Robinson's 13.0 in 90-91; Duncan's high water mark is likely to be his 12.9 rpg in 02-03 -- more than 3 rpg less than Rodman's poorer season and almost 4.5 less than Rodman's better season.

Rodman also won some accolades while with the Spurs, making the All-Defense team both years (1st Team in 94-95 and 2nd team in 93-94).

Obviously, the downside to Rodman is the playoff failures and disharmony that he created -- particularly the 1995 WCF. The Worm's turn, however, is also evidenced by the fact that of the top 12 rebounding games in Spurs' playoff history, only 1 belongs to Rodman.

Still, the Dennis Rodman experience might well have changed the course of Spurs history. Without Rodman, Popovich might not have become the stickler for character that he's been and without that concern on the radar, the Spurs might not have been as successful as they've been (or, who knows? -- maybe they would have been even better). I think the character thing is overrated in some circumstances, but teams without great character don't put on the rallies against a good Mavs team in 2006 or against a fiesty Hornets team in 2008. And, if the Spurs hadn't traded Rodman, maybe 1996-97 is a different season, too. . . .

[rAm]

timvp, how about putting Tim Derk (the original Coyote) on this list?

Shit, he did more for this team than Rasho did.

[baseline bum]

Rodman becomes an interesting case around this point.

Did you know that of the top 13 rebounding games in Spurs history (regular season), 10 belong to Dennis Rodman, including all of the top 7 games? (Duncan has one of the remaining 3, Edgar Jones has another, and Artis Gilmore has the third).

Rodman also has the franchise record for most rebounds in a season, which is more than 300 rebounds ahead of The Admiral's 1000 rebound season in 90-91. It's functionally untouchable. Rodman also has the two most prolific rebounding seasons in Spurs' history with 17.3 rpg in 93-94 and 16.8 rpg in 94-95. To give some perspective to those numbers, the next best rpg average season in Spurs history is Robinson's 13.0 in 90-91; Duncan's high water mark is likely to be his 12.9 rpg in 02-03 -- more than 3 rpg less than Rodman's poorer season and almost 4.5 less than Rodman's better season.

Rodman also won some accolades while with the Spurs, making the All-Defense team both years (1st Team in 94-95 and 2nd team in 93-94).

Obviously, the downside to Rodman is the playoff failures and disharmony that he created -- particularly the 1995 WCF. The Worm's turn, however, is also evidenced by the fact that of the top 12 rebounding games in Spurs' playoff history, only 1 belongs to Rodman.

Still, the Dennis Rodman experience might well have changed the course of Spurs history. Without Rodman, Popovich might not have become the stickler for character that he's been and without that concern on the radar, the Spurs might not have been as successful as they've been (or, who knows? -- maybe they would have been even better). I think the character thing is overrated in some circumstances, but teams without great character don't put on the rallies against a good Mavs team in 2006 or against a fiesty Hornets team in 2008. And, if the Spurs hadn't traded Rodman, maybe 1996-97 is a different season, too. . . .

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No thanks.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I went with Chuck Person.

Banks, George Johnson, Coby Dietrick, E. Jones, Antoine Carr all warrant consideration too.

[timvp]

What did Steve Kerr do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

What did Brent Barry do to ensure the Spurs won a Ring?

Thanks for playing, enjoy your invalid list.

You voted for Steve Kerr starting at spot number 12. That's about all I need to know. You are either clueless to Kerr's comparative value to the rest of the players in Spurs history or you are Kerr himself.

Game over.

[DieMrBond]

Probably too early for some Fab love, but he has raised his play in the playoffs (baring this last season) - and was pretty huge versus Utah if i remember correctly?

[timvp]

I'm going with Professor Hank.

[The Truth #6]

Rodman probably won't make it to the top 50 list at all given the past week's reactions. The fact is Dave wouldn't have had his MVP season without Rodman doing all the dirty work for him. People are fair to attack Dennis for what he did in the playoffs, however, that is being selective. If we're going to discount everything that Rodman did, then are we going to discount the positive effect he had on David for those two seasons? I doubt it.

I still think Walter Berry's 17 ppg and 56% FG at 26 mpg should put him on the list sometime soon, but hey, I'll admit I'm biased.

Presti, Egan, or PJ should probably be thrown into the mix at about this time, especially with everyone either scratching their heads for whom to vote for, or having to vote to between the lesser of two evils to stave off the Kerr and Rasho apologists.

[Obstructed_View]

If we're going to discount everything that Rodman did, then are we going to discount the positive effect he had on David for those two seasons?

The single biggest stain on David Robinson's NBA resume is that he got "schooled" by Hakeem. If the Spurs had won that series, you'd never hear people say that outside of Houston. Sorry, but nothing Rodman ever did makes up for that.

[SenorSpur]

Actually I had forgotten about Rodman. He SHOULD get his props on this list.

[50 cent]

In no particular order, the following guys definitely need to make the Top 50 list:

Hank Egan
Chuck Person
PJ Carlisemo
Sam Presti
Steve Kerr
Vinny Del Negro
Antonio Daniels
Coby Dietrick

[baseline bum]

Rodman probably won't make it to the top 50 list at all given the past week's reactions. The fact is Dave wouldn't have had his MVP season without Rodman doing all the dirty work for him. People are fair to attack Dennis for what he did in the playoffs, however, that is being selective. If we're going to discount everything that Rodman did, then are we going to discount the positive effect he had on David for those two seasons? I doubt it.

I still think Walter Berry's 17 ppg and 56% FG at 26 mpg should put him on the list sometime soon, but hey, I'll admit I'm biased.

Presti, Egan, or PJ should probably be thrown into the mix at about this time, especially with everyone either scratching their heads for whom to vote for, or having to vote to between the lesser of two evils to stave off the Kerr and Rasho apologists.

How did Rodman help Dave to win the MVP? By taking away the rebounds David used to get? By being an offensive threat that spread the floor for Dave to attack the basket? By getting most of the credit for the Spurs defense based on his past history?

[FromWayDowntown]

To be clear, I wasn't saying I'm voting for Rodman here -- or anywhere else for that matter. I was just saying that as cases for inclusion on this list go, Rodman has an argument that's interesting to me.

[The Truth #6]

How did Rodman help Dave to win the MVP? By taking away the rebounds David used to get? By being an offensive threat that spread the floor for Dave to attack the basket? By getting most of the credit for the Spurs defense based on his past history?

Everyone knew David needed an enforcer to do the dirty work so he could focus on his finesse game, which is why Bob Bass made the trade. By being the more physical player, Rodman allowed Dave to focus more on scoring, which he did in winning the scoring title that year. Does that make sense to you?

Are you so blind with your Rodman rage that you can't see beyond what happened in the playoffs? Yes, we all know Rodman sabotaged the team. I don't need to see the same 4 Youtube clips again to understand that. Yeah, we all get that.

Had Rodman not done that and we went to the Finals then Dennis probably would be a top ten Spur for his contribution in getting us over the hump. To me the situation is not black and white. It's a team game and Dennis helped the team win 62 games that year. If you want to say that David played his best basketball in spite of Rodman, then please go ahead but that seems like a ridiculous argument to make.

[baseline bum]

Everyone knew David needed an enforcer to do the dirty work so he could focus on his finesse game, which is why Bob Bass made the trade. By being the more physical player, Rodman allowed Dave to focus more on scoring, which he did in winning the scoring title that year. Does that make sense to you?


Not really. Robinson didn't win the scoring title that year; he won it in 94. LMAO that Rodman somehow made it easier for David to score. What dirty work did Rodman do for the team? The two things he was known for on the floor in the best of times in San Antonio was 1) padding his rebound stats at the expense of playing defense and 2) running back half-ass in transition.



Are you so blind with your Rodman rage that you can't see beyond what happened in the playoffs? Yes, we all know Rodman sabotaged the team. I don't need to see the same 4 Youtube clips again to understand that. Yeah, we all get that.

Had Rodman not done that and we went to the Finals then Dennis probably would be a top ten Spur for his contribution in getting us over the hump. To me the situation is not black and white. It's a team game and Dennis helped the team win 62 games that year. If you want to say that David played his best basketball in spite of Rodman, then please go ahead but that seems like a ridiculous argument to make.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. The bottom line is Rodman gave up on the team the one time they really needed him. I post those three youtube clips of Rodman because they make it clear in no uncertain terms that he did not give a shit about winning. Seriously, who makes a reputation in the regular season? Everything was a big fucking joke to Rodman when he was in SA, and the joke was on the team and its fans.

[MrChug]

I went with Chuck Person.

I'll take someone who helped orchestrate the Spurs system for 8 seasons over someone who went 3 seasons any day.

TO COMPLETELY CONTRADICT MYSELF I PROUDLY ANNOUNCE THAT I HAVE VOTED FOR CHUCK FOR THE LAST 8 VOTES.

:lol:lol:lol

[The Truth #6]

Not really. Robinson didn't win the scoring title that year; he won it in 94. LMAO that Rodman somehow made it easier for David to score. What dirty work did Rodman do for the team? The two things he was known for on the floor in the best of times in San Antonio was 1) padding his rebound stats at the expense of playing defense and 2) running back half-ass in transition.



If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. The bottom line is Rodman gave up on the team the one time they really needed him. I post those three youtube clips of Rodman because they make it clear in no uncertain terms that he did not give a shit about winning. Seriously, who makes a reputation in the regular season? Everything was a big fucking joke to Rodman when he was in SA, and the joke was on the team and its fans.


What are you talking about? When did I claim anything unusual about the year David won the scoring title?

David won the scoring title in the 93-94 season, the same year Rodman joined the Spurs and led the league in rebounds and was voted All Defense 2nd Team. Where is the confusion?

If leading the league in rebounding at a ridiculous number AND getting voted on the All Defensive team is not considered "dirty work" in the NBA then I don't know what is. I think you're caught up with him wearing a dress on the cover of the magazine or whatever other things he did off the court.

Yes, clearly Rodman screwed us in the playoffs. Dude, everyone and their mother and your hermaphrodite aunt already knows that. What people are choosing not to remember is the regular season contributions he made.

And if you're going to focus completely on the playoffs and discount the regular season then under that lens you should re-examine David Robinson because he didn't do shit in the playoffs until Tim Duncan showed up. However, that doesn't mean we should disregard his contributions.

This list is the top 50. At this stage in the process we can't hold everyone to the same standards as the top 10. There are going to be medicore players at this point, as well as players with mixed records. And Rodman is a part of that whether you like it or not.

If someone wants to put PJ, Hank or Presti at this point then that's fine. But we're running out of players who had any quantifiable record to build an argument around.

[baseline bum]

Sabotaging the WCF in a year the Spurs had a real shot at a title trumps anything else he ever did for the franchise. The Coyote is more deserving of a spot in the top 50 than Rodman. Rasho Neserovich is more deserving. Even Beno deserves a higher ranking.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'll take someone who helped orchestrate the Spurs system for 8 seasons over someone who went 3 seasons any day.

TO COMPLETELY CONTRADICT MYSELF I PROUDLY ANNOUNCE THAT I HAVE VOTED FOR CHUCK FOR THE LAST 8 VOTES.

:lol:lol:lol


I'm guessing this is in reference to my lack of support for someone like Del Negro all the while singing the praises of long-time Spurs such as Coby Dietrick and Mike Gale...and then voting for the short-timer, hired gun...errr rifleman, Person.

I'm kind of torn on these last few spots on how to vote exactly so I think I've resigned myself to vote for those folks who were most 'influential' on me. So expect to see a lot more Chuck Person, Edgar Jones, George Johnson and perhaps even some Antoine Carr votes from me for spots 40-50 because those are the guys left on the list that I enjoyed watching the most. I'm not sure any of those guys played more than a couple of years for the Spurs but they all contributed a lot.






As a side note, my Del Negro dislike stems from listening to him as the color guy for Phoenix Suns radio broadcasts. He was as much of a Suns homer as Elliott is a Spurs homer. My dislike for him grew immensely every time I turned on my radio. I probably shouldn't hold it against him except for the fact that I can tell the guy doesn't bleed black and silver...and that just won't do.

[MrChug]

Alright, I may not be telling the COMPLETE truth about my votes and perhaps have voted for my FAVORITE Spur (based bupon the great memories he brought ME), but he's not the most important to the organization and the city-which my interpretation is of the voting criteria. It's MY interpretation.

[Rynospursfan]

Antonio Daniels needs to start getting some love. I can't believe Bob Hill has more votes than him.

[Obstructed_View]

The Coyote is more deserving of a spot in the top 50 than Rodman. Rasho Neserovich is more deserving. Even Beno deserves a higher ranking.

This is where you start to sound insane. Just FYI. If you caught Rodman and Del Negro doubling up on your sister, then just tell people you don't like them. It has nothing to do with basketball, and posts like this fail to reinforce the case you're making.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Alright, I may not be telling the COMPLETE truth about my votes and perhaps have voted for my FAVORITE Spur (based bupon the great memories he brought ME), but he's not the most important to the organization and the city-which my interpretation is of the voting criteria. It's MY interpretation.


Influence can be measured in a lot of ways, and there is certainly a lot of room for individual interpretation which makes these last few spots so tough to call.

[SenorSpur]

I'm guessing this is in reference to my lack of support for someone like Del Negro all the while singing the praises of long-time Spurs such as Coby Dietrick and Mike Gale...and then voting for the short-timer, hired gun...errr rifleman, Person.

I'm kind of torn on these last few spots on how to vote exactly so I think I've resigned myself to vote for those folks who were most 'influential' on me. So expect to see a lot more Chuck Person, Edgar Jones, George Johnson and perhaps even some Antoine Carr votes from me for spots 40-50 because those are the guys left on the list that I enjoyed watching the most. I'm not sure any of those guys played more than a couple of years for the Spurs but they all contributed a lot.

I noticed your legendary screen name. I'm curious to know why you have so much affinity for the "Wild Helicopter?" How did you get hooked on him? I actually liked him too, but thought I was the only one.


As a side note, my Del Negro dislike stems from listening to him as the color guy for Phoenix Suns radio broadcasts. He was as much of a Suns homer as Elliott is a Spurs homer. My dislike for him grew immensely every time I turned on my radio. I probably shouldn't hold it against him except for the fact that I can tell the guy doesn't bleed black and silver...and that just won't do.

As for your Del Negro dislike, I take it a step further. He was, by far, THE Spur I hated most. Primarily for his soft-as-tissue basketball style, his dislike for contact, his resistence toward driving the lane, and more importantly his propensity for coming up small in big games. A true one-trick pony, in the vein of present-day Michael Finley, Vinny Da Black (as I called him) was the streakiest of shooters and, like Finley, if he wasn't hitting his shot, he was of no use to the team. At least Finley can occasionally get into the lane and will bend his knees to try and defend.

Finally, Vinny always struck me as someone who really wasn't very committed to basketball - just what he could get out of it.