Ron Paul says no to bailout.

[cool hand]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/paul.bailout/index.html

[KenMcCoy]

Sadly, he's the only one who actually UNDERSTANDS the problem and the true implications of the bailout. I'm not saying that we'll be burning money in the streets like Germany in the early 30s, but there is going to be a lot of inflation.

[DarkReign]

Sadly, he's the only one who actually UNDERSTANDS the problem and the true implications of the bailout. I'm not saying that we'll be burning money in the streets like Germany in the early 30s, but there is going to be a lot of inflation.

Were the Germans of the 30s even remotely near the level of consumerism present today in America? Even Americans of the Great Depression were nowhere near what Americans are today. I'd say a good minority of people in this country would starve to death if left in a room to die with nothing to eat or drink except a live pig and a small knife....and thats pathetic, but telling about Americans in general, IMO.

I dont pretend to know what this all means, admittedly, my dance with this has been quite revealing to how much I dont know (but then again, Ive never pretended to know everything anyway).

In my opinion, I dont think your typical American can handle hyperinflation. Our entire class-system is based around what you have. Your iPhone, your Blackberry, your car, your house, your clothes, your jewelry, your money clip, your traveling, etc.

I suspect the number of Americans who will seriously consider suicide, with some small percentage of that actually completing the task, is relative to the number of paid subscriptions to People magazine, US Weekly and the National Enquirer.

The culling of the herd doesnt sound so bad.

[Anti.Hero]

I4s0nzsU1Wg

[Oh, Gee!!]

nevermind. anti-hero figured it out. problem solved.

[SpursFanFirst]

I agree with Ron Paul on this. The government needs to stop meddling and let this thing works itself out.

By bailing these companies out, isn't the government just delaying the inevitable?
It sounds as though some companies will fall apart even if they are saved in the meantime.
If that's the case, we bail them out, they fail, and we have major debt on our hands that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Perhaps someone better versed in this area could explain this to me.

[2centsworth]

I agree with Ron Paul on this. The government needs to stop meddling and let this thing works itself out.

By bailing these companies out, isn't the government just delaying the inevitable?
It sounds as though some companies will fall apart even if they are saved in the meantime.
If that's the case, we bail them out, they fail, and we have major debt on our hands that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Perhaps someone better versed in this area could explain this to me.

the government is loaning money to distressed financial institutions. The reason for the distress is because of the market to market valuations of the sub-prime mortgages. what that means is what are those mortgages worth if sold today? right now the values are running at about .20 cents on the dollar. Common sense will tell you that the loans weren't issued at no 20% Loan to value. In time financial institutions can unwind the toxic assets(sub-prime) and most importantly take on new good loans and recover. However, without the US loaning money there would be a total collapse of the financial industry and capital would completely dry up. The dominoe effect that this would cause would lead us to another GREAT DEPRESSION with 25% unemployment and soup lines.

[SpursFanFirst]

the government is loaning money to distressed financial institutions. The reason for the distress is because of the market to market valuations of the sub-prime mortgages. what that means is what are those mortgages worth if sold today? right now the values are running at about .20 cents on the dollar. Common sense will tell you that the loans weren't issued at no 20% Loan to value. In time financial institutions can unwind the toxic assets(sub-prime) and most importantly take on new good loans and recover. However, without the US loaning money there would be a total collapse of the financial industry and capital would completely dry up. The dominoe effect that this would cause would lead us to another GREAT DEPRESSION with 25% unemployment and soup lines.

That makes sense, I think.
But what if those institutions can't "unwind the toxic assets?"
Isn't that a possibility?

[washingtonwizard]

I don't think anyone is arguing that goverment should not step in at all. IMO what most opponents of the plan are arguing is that it needs to be more carefully crafted and detailed, and have some kind of guarantee of success or partial success.

[DarkReign]

That makes sense, I think.
But what if those institutions can't "unwind the toxic assets?"
Isn't that a possibility?


Always a possibility, and judging by their previous decisions in financial management, I am sure we should all just trust the companies in need of bail-outs to recover on their own after we the taxpayers foot their first bill of incompetence.

The cycle has just started, IMO.

[2centsworth]

That makes sense, I think.
But what if those institutions can't "unwind the toxic assets?"
Isn't that a possibility?

good question, but remember the toxic assets (sub-prime mortgages) are supported by real estate. Unless real estate goes to Zero it's hard to see a scenario where the Feds don't recover some if not more than their original investment. The unwinding phase is getting past the refinancing of ARMS, the liquidation of foreclosed homes, and the stabilization of mortgage pools which only time will do (5yrs or so).

However, financial institutions must add good debts and earn profits from the debts in order to offset the losses. Liquidity is desperately needed.

[2centsworth]

Always a possibility, and judging by their previous decisions in financial management, I am sure we should all just trust the companies in need of bail-outs to recover on their own after we the taxpayers foot their first bill of incompetence.

The cycle has just started, IMO.

Solution= Collateral. When loaning at only 20cents on the dollar, the feds should have plently of collateral.

[boutons_]

Call Paulsen's bluff, it was only his opening negotiating position.

Give him a bailout but with strings attached and limiting his authority in scope and time. But it looks like the Dems are caving.

Like the pitbull bitch, it's ALL a bluff, a con job, blackmail by the kleptocratic plutocracy to ripoff citizens' money and destroy govt, which has been the neo-c*nts wet dream for decades.

[KenMcCoy]

Sorry 2cents but have to disagree with you on this one...if the gov't hadn't stepped in after the crash of '29 there wouldn't have been a depression. It would only have been a recession lasting 2-3 yrs and not the depression that lasted 10 yrs.

[coyotes_geek]

Call Paulsen's bluff, it was only his opening negotiating position.

Give him a bailout but with strings attached and limiting his authority in scope and time. But it looks like the Dems are caving.

Like the pitbull bitch, it's ALL a bluff, a con job, blackmail by the kleptocratic plutocracy to ripoff citizens' money and destroy govt, which has been the neo-c*nts wet dream for decades.

Are the Dems really caving? Or are they just betting that 4 months from now Obama will be calling the shots? With Obama getting to choose who runs the show, and no real congressional oversight, the Dems would be able to hand out all the free money as they see fit and republicans would have no say in the matter.

[whottt]

It's a no brainer they have to bail Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac out as those are quasi government agencies to begin with...they began as purely governmental agencies.


As long as it's transparent, and as long as it's not permanent....

[2centsworth]

Sorry 2cents but have to disagree with you on this one...if the gov't hadn't stepped in after the crash of '29 there wouldn't have been a depression. It would only have been a recession lasting 2-3 yrs and not the depression that lasted 10 yrs.

apples and oranges.

[boutons_]

The HUGE question is at what prices, how many pennies on the $, will the crap paper be purchased for.

Ya gotta figure conflict-of-interest/investment banker/Wall St Old Boy Paulsen is gonna pay "top penny" to his accomplices in the financial industry.

[boutons_]

"if the gov't hadn't stepped in after the crash of '29 there wouldn't have been a depression"

neo-c*nt revisionism.

[2centsworth]

The HUGE question is at what prices, how many pennies on the $, will the crap paper be purchased for.

Ya gotta figure conflict-of-interest/investment banker/Wall St Old Boy Paulsen is gonna pay "top penny" to his accomplices in the financial industry.

it better be no better than what Merrill got.

[DarkReign]

Are the Dems really caving? Or are they just betting that 4 months from now Obama will be calling the shots? With Obama getting to choose who runs the show, and no real congressional oversight, the Dems would be able to hand out all the free money as they see fit and republicans would have no say in the matter.


Huh? Exactly why would a Congress put all their chips on the table in the hopes that Obama wins come November?

You think is some sort of Reagan-Carter hostage situation all over again?

This entire scenario goes way beyond party lines. This is systemic.

[MannyIsGod]

Pete makes great points in this thread. Boutons even makes a good point about how much we'll be buying those assets for.

[coyotes_geek]

Huh? Exactly why would a Congress put all their chips on the table in the hopes that Obama wins come November?

You think is some sort of Reagan-Carter hostage situation all over again?

This entire scenario goes way beyond party lines. This is systemic.

Just because the problem is systematic doesn't mean the proposed solution being negotiated isn't partisan. Once the government starts handing out money everyone is going to be lining up to get a share of it. No matter how much money we give out there's going to be someone else next in line wanting more.

Someone is going to get to decide who gets to dump their garbage on the taxpayers lawn and who has to hang on to theirs. Whoever gets to "play God" and make that decision is going to have a lot of power. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the worst out of our two political parties in that they would try to manipulate that situation. Maybe the Dems are that confident that Obama's going to win, maybe they simply are just caving. Maybe Bush, Bernake & Paulson really do believe this needs to get passed in a hurry, maybe they just want to make sure they get to give away all the money before the next guy takes over.

[cool hand]

republicans and democrats hate americans.

[cool hand]

.........but love money.

[Wild Cobra]

I hope who ever wins, they're smart enough to offer a cabinet position or Ron Paul. I think he's great except on national security.

[Indazone]

The Yellow Button akin to the Military's Red Button.

Paulson is gonna push the Yellow Button.

Google "Economic Collapse"

USA gov't plans on declaring force majeure on it's debt. They are not even attempting to fix this and have never even tried to. We are riding the end of the debt bubble and it's about to pop.

You can read the effects of the bubble popping when you see what happens next. Just google economic collapse and see what I"m talking about.

[jackseven]

Why bail them out?

So we can repeat this again?

We can't keep having these too big too fail moments. This is complete bullshit.

How about dividing 700 billion aka 1 trillion amongst the American people?

The American people are getting socked again and yet some of them are leading the charge to run and support the cause of saving these big time financial institutions.

Bernacke and Paulson are crying fire so everybody runs scared and says yes sir, let's hand over a trillion dollars to the financial institutions who just took a business risk and lost.

If big businesses can take a risk without the consequences of there being a risk, we're all fucked. This is what just happened and what will continue to happen as long as there are "companies that are too big to fail".

The American people are getting slapped around and saying please sir may I have another.

Don't believe these guys. What the hell do they know? They just watched this happen and now they're giving out advice on how to solve it?

Ben Bernanke is the Chairman of the United States Federal Reserve. You're telling me this is just now coming to light for him? Bullshit.

I say no to the bailout to. Good for Ron Paul. We need more independent thinkers and less yes men.

Think for yourselves and look what's really happening. Our money is being floated about out their to save private institutions. The same private institutions that have executives that need $2 - $150 million a year to just sit their and make unethical decisions that can leave at any time with complete immunity.

Were are those guys? I want to see some board of directors lists and some meeting details, minutes, and transcripts. Where are these geniuses that have these golden minds that are worth $10m a year?

Read between the lines you fool. You're getting screwed.

[2centsworth]

Why bail them out?

So we can repeat this again?

We can't keep having these too big too fail moments. This is complete bullshit.

How about dividing 700 billion aka 1 trillion amongst the American people?

The American people are getting socked again and yet some of them are leading the charge to run and support the cause of saving these big time financial institutions.

.

you think the bailout is for these financial institutions? The bailout is so the American people will not have to live through another great depression.

that 700 billion better come in, because if it doesn't, get ready for all assets like your car, house, 401k to lose 20-30% overnight. credit will dry up so you will see our economy contract in a hurry. Auto, airlines, construction will see massive layoffs.

If they don't do something now 700 billion is going to seem like $5 bucks a month from now.

sad thing is, these politicians have to know this, but they are playing russian roulette because it's an election year.

[boutons_]

2cents doing his best fear-mongering, swallowing Paulsen's BS hook, line, and sinker.

the bailout is of the finance industry, not heavily indebed American citizens whose household debt exceeds househould income by 10%+.

[jackseven]

you think the bailout is for these financial institutions? The bailout is so the American people will not have to live through another great depression.

that 700 billion better come in, because if it doesn't, get ready for all assets like your car, house, 401k to lose 20-30% overnight. credit will dry up so you will see our economy contract in a hurry. Auto, airlines, construction will see massive layoffs.

If they don't do something now 700 billion is going to seem like $5 bucks a month from now.

sad thing is, these politicians have to know this, but they are playing russian roulette because it's an election year.

Hard times are coming either way. Also, most Americans probably aren't selling their houses or cars any time soon. Cars aren't much of an investment anyway and only get back money as an incentive to buy a new one.

Certainly this bailout is cloaked as for the American people - how else would it go through? But it is for the Financial Institutions. Sure, maybe more of the loss is spread around and Americans won't feel a brunt impact right away but all this does is put off the inevitable.

You don't have financial institutions lose trillions and take it from the American people and get to say disaster averted. All this means is we suffer a little less now and more later.

We are paying for their mistakes and when they get profit it will not go to us. It will never go to us.

If you are a long term stock holder, your stocks will go back up if the company(ies) you invested in are indeed good companies. Massive layoffs - yes there will be massive layoffs.

But at some point, this scheme of replenishing money to the people that just stole it all has to stop.

And look at the alternative, you spend this money and you increase inflation, taxes go up, more layoffs.

This type of stupid ass decision making is what keeps getting us in trouble and the people that keep falling for it perpetuate the problem.

Stop falling for it.

Bottomline - Joe Average pays for Butter Dollarsworth's $5m annual salary again.

All this money is going into somebodies pockets. A $1 trillion+ buyout isn't the answer.

If our capitalistic marketplace was pure, the economy would be flourishing. Capitalism works, but not when people keep fucking with it and getting away with it.

No morals, insatiable greed, unethical behavior, illegal behavior, back door deals, and government bailouts of all of the above will never allow our economy to thrive.

OPEN YOUR EYES.

You're being bilked.

[SpursFanFirst]

Here's another bailout question...

So we pay to bail out the financial institutions, and we don't go through another Great Depression.
What then?

Do the companies pick up where they left off and make money while doing nothing for the consumer?

Is this nothing more than a slap on the wrist?

Isn't this kind of like someone going out and wracking up HUGE credit card debt, then filing bankruptcy? I don't remember which chapter it is, but isn't there one where those filing bankruptcy keep all that they have? Yes, they have bad credit now, but still.

[jackseven]

Here's another bailout question...

So we pay to bail out the financial institutions, and we don't go through another Great Depression.
What then?

Do the companies pick up where they left off and make money while doing nothing for the consumer?

Is this nothing more than a slap on the wrist?

Isn't this kind of like someone going out and wracking up HUGE credit card debt, then filing bankruptcy? I don't remember which chapter it is, but isn't there one where those filing bankruptcy keep all that they have? Yes, they have bad credit now, but still.

If you're referring to sanctions, none are coming. There will now be more regulations and restrictions but forget about the penalties for these companies.

It's the exact same as someone racking up CC debt or losing in any other business adventures only the government is bailing them out. What they retain depends on this upcoming bill which will leave them with plenty on the auspices of the government is only buying their assets to sell later for more.

Flat out fraud is what's going on here.

[ducks]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/paul.bailout/index.html

ron paul is a no one

[SpursFanFirst]

If you're referring to sanctions, none are coming. There will now be more regulations and restrictions but forget about the penalties for these companies.

It's the exact same as someone racking up CC debt or losing in any other business adventures only the government is bailing them out. What they retain depends on this upcoming bill which will leave them with plenty on the auspices of the government is only buying their assets to sell later for more.

Flat out fraud is what's going on here.

That's what I was afraid of.

[bobbyjoe]

Here's another bailout question...

So we pay to bail out the financial institutions, and we don't go through another Great Depression.
What then?

Do the companies pick up where they left off and make money while doing nothing for the consumer?

Is this nothing more than a slap on the wrist?

Isn't this kind of like someone going out and wracking up HUGE credit card debt, then filing bankruptcy? I don't remember which chapter it is, but isn't there one where those filing bankruptcy keep all that they have? Yes, they have bad credit now, but still.

These companies have taken beatings already. Many of these struggling assets have been marked down to 20-30% of acquisition cost. They will have to recognize these huge losses when they sell to the govt to clean up their balance sheets. Lots of job cuts. They may have to give up equity shares to the gov't as part of the bailout package. AIG in fact had to give up an 80% share to the US Govt as agreement for the $80 billion loan, payable at an ungodly 11% interest rate.

They aren't exactly getting off scot free here. Their firm values have been destroyed in most cases due to the risks they took and how they backfired.

The government is buying these assets at fair market value. The word "bailout" is not really indicative of what is truly happening here.

[bobbyjoe]

2cents doing his best fear-mongering, swallowing Paulsen's BS hook, line, and sinker.

the bailout is of the finance industry, not heavily indebed American citizens whose household debt exceeds househould income by 10%+.

2Cents is right. Without an injection of liquidity into the system, the certain credit crunch would shut down the flow of money to consumers and businesses and really choke the economy. It'd be pretty ugly.

If there was a run on banks because consumers lost all faith in the safety and security of their deposit accounts, things would get ugly and fast.

The Dems and Repubs need to stop dicking around. This is absoltely no time for partisanship. Some issues, this like one, are too important to F around with...

[jackseven]

These companies have taken beatings already. Many of these struggling assets have been marked down to 20-30% of acquisition cost. They will have to recognize these huge losses when they sell to the govt to clean up their balance sheets. Lots of job cuts. They may have to give up equity shares to the gov't as part of the bailout package. AIG in fact had to give up an 80% share to the US Govt as agreement for the $80 billion loan, payable at an ungodly 11% interest rate.

They aren't exactly getting off scot free here. Their firm values have been destroyed in most cases due to the risks they took and how they backfired.

The government is buying these assets at fair market value. The word "bailout" is not really indicative of what is truly happening here.

Fair market value? Then there would be no buyout. They would just sell to the market. US is paying substantially more - hence bailout.

[bobbyjoe]

The US will be paying FMV or very close thereto. These assets and derivatives are going to be bought for .20-.30 on the dollar.

They cant sell to the market because these assets are now basically illiquid. No one wants to touch them with a 10 foot pole now that the truth is out about them and is painful to see.

It's not really a "bailout" per se, but a transfer of risk from the companies to the US taxpayers. The US govt is incurring $700 B -$1 T of risk, not giving cash payments.

We won't know for years what the final cost to the US govt will be. Some believe the Govt will actually turn a profit on the deal. The word bailout has been used far too liberally.

[bobbyjoe]

Sadly, he's the only one who actually UNDERSTANDS the problem and the true implications of the bailout. I'm not saying that we'll be burning money in the streets like Germany in the early 30s, but there is going to be a lot of inflation.


This will be the $64,000 question. The "bailout" will lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates. It will become more expensive for the US to borrow money after they borrow another trilliion for the "bailout", no doubt.

Do these 2 negatives outweigh the positives? IMO not necessarily, but I can see a case for the other side. Bottom line is that things are going to be ugly for a little bit of time no matter what the Govt chose to do.

I think it's important to note that Paul has long abhorred the federal reserve. He's as much advancing his agenda of a long-held despise for the Fed as he is giving an honest opinion about the bailout IMO.

[cool hand]

ron paul is a no one

you are a dumb ass. he has predicted almost every major event that has happened to the US since about 1983. just read his books.

the one that scarce me is the the NAU. and the systematic death of the dollar to create the Amero.......its coming.

..........and as for national security................he was on target with that to.

[sabar]

Ron Paul is very well learned in how a government should be run.

Unfortunately, people would prefer to maintain the status quo, even if it eventually runs the country into the floor. Ron Paul is very good at identifying the problem in a situation and knowing how to solve it. Congress can't even do it on a single issue after 8 years.

[whottt]

I think Ron Paul is stuck in 1789 on a lot of issues and doesn't have a good grasp of reality. He's very aware of our Revolutionary History...but he seems pretty ignorant on a lot of things that have happened since...especially when it comes to foreign policy.


He's wrong if he thinks we can go back to being isolationist...

[InRareForm]

I think Ron Paul is stuck in 1789 on a lot of issues and doesn't have a good grasp of reality. He's very aware of our Revolutionary History...but he seems pretty ignorant on a lot of things that have happened since...especially when it comes to foreign policy.


He's wrong if he thinks we can go back to being isolationist...

easy on the scarecrow tactic here, he is still dead on with this issue tho, IMO.

[whottt]

Hey I'm the guy saying we should do away with insruance companies...I imagine Paul probably agrees with that. I agree with a lot of stuff he says about minimizing govt...I just don't agree with having that approach across the board. That's his mindset on every single issue...which IMO, brands him as an extremist by definition. America attempting to be isolationist is like the Cowboys, Lakers or Yankees hoping teams won't get up to play them...

It's just not a realistic goal, it's just not going to happen. Many many years after we're no longer the establishment...then we can go back to being isolationist...but even then it's doubtful it will last.


The Native Americans were pretty much isolationist...how'd that turn out for them?

[PixelPusher]

The Native Americans were pretty much isolationist...how'd that turn out for them?

Stone age hunter-gatherer tribes didn't set sail to conquer the globe? Go figure.

[whottt]

Stone age hunter-gatherer tribes didn't set sail to conquer the globe? Go figure.


How'd being isolationist turn out for the Neanderthals?

[whottt]

You know that guy in school that was always getting harassed and picked on by other kids?

He was isolationist.

[cool hand]

How'd being isolationist turn out for the Neanderthals?


they didn't know how to use their Garmin.

[Purple & Gold]

Ron Paul is an idiot that thinks the "Free Market" will solve all. There is no such thing as a free market and never has been. As long as we have to deal with a global market there is no way we can have no government restrictions. His no government policy is dangerous and encourages mass exploitation. We are in the problem we are now in because we had little government oversight to begin with. Less would be that much more dangerous.

And 2cents is only half right this bailout is for the people and for the boards of the finance industry. We're footing their bonuses, but the alternative would be much worse. It would lead to a much worse recession maybe even depression.

[DarkReign]

Ron Paul is an idiot that thinks the "Free Market" will solve all. There is no such thing as a free market and never has been. As long as we have to deal with a global market there is no way we can have no government restrictions. His no government policy is dangerous and encourages mass exploitation. We are in the problem we are now in because we had little government oversight to begin with. Less would be that much more dangerous.

And 2cents is only half right this bailout is for the people and for the boards of the finance industry. We're footing their bonuses, but the alternative would be much worse. It would lead to a much worse recession maybe even depression.

Oh fucking really?

This "loan" is going to fucking kill the dollar...today, tomorrow and into our grandchildren's time. These "illiquid" assets are exactly that. Worth next to nothing, of which the US taxpayer is going to pay nearly 4x market price for.

It will never turn a profit, it will be nothing but a drain on our economy for the next 30 years, if our economy as we know it is even still around by that time.

Will it be a depression? No, it wont. But barring some wonderful technological advancement (like the internet), it will the longest, most severe recession of this country's history.

I personally believe this was planned. Drive the value of the dollar into the ground....purposely. Devalue the buying power of the American people so as they will be capitulant to the coming "economic changeover".

People dont like conspiracies, or tinfoil hats...I can understand that. To an extent. But these same banks (JP Morgan) and instituions (Federal Reserve) are the same banks and institutions of the past who have subverted the constitution to create the Federal Reserve, tried a military coup against FDR, were at the very least cohorts in prolonging the Great Depression and any other myriad of world affairs.

Theyve been mentioned by JFK as a "cabal" who "are interested in the subversive takeover of this country", by Woodrow Wilson as "the greatest mistake I have ever made" and other numerous President's, foreign officials and the like.

So, laugh me off. But when a certain something happens in the next five years (or so), I'll give you a link to a prediction that was made in the 1920s about where this country would be economically in 100+ years. This entire process (big boom, massive illiegitimate credit, big crunch, massive bailouts, ultimate devaluation of the US Dollar, etc) was predicted to a fucking tee.

Its not a systemic problem, its a very calculated attack. But again, laugh me off. I probably lost all credibility with this post (if I had any to begin with). Whatever. Im sick of not saying it out loud.

[DarkReign]

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during these years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government which will never again know war, but only peace and prosperity for the whole of humanity. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in the past centuries. It is also our duty to inform the press of our convictions as to the historic future of the century." David Rockefeller 1991

[DarkReign]

"The very word, secrecy, is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people, inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings."



"… there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it's in my control."


"We are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covet means for expanding its sphere of influence; on
infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation
instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly-knit highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

-John F. Kennedy

[DarkReign]

Oh yeah, but Lee Harvey Oswald did it.

Nevermind the same people who tried to usurp FDR were still around....

[101A]

-John F. Kennedy


I think Kennedy was talking about Communism.

Might be wrong.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

So, laugh me off. But when a certain something happens in the next five years (or so), I'll give you a link to a prediction that was made in the 1920s about where this country would be economically in 100+ years. This entire process (big boom, massive illiegitimate credit, big crunch, massive bailouts, ultimate devaluation of the US Dollar, etc) was predicted to a fucking tee.

Its not a systemic problem, its a very calculated attack. But again, laugh me off. I probably lost all credibility with this post (if I had any to begin with). Whatever. Im sick of not saying it out loud.

have you read The Forgotten Man?

[DarkReign]

I think Kennedy was talking about Communism.

Might be wrong.


I could see how you would think that, but the entire quote (which I could not find, admittedly, I didnt spend much time looking for it) specifically states "banking cabal".

[DarkReign]

have you read The Forgotten Man?

No, I have not.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

No, I have not.i'm reading it now. very good and along the lines of what you're talking about. the paperback is about $17.

[DarkReign]

i'm reading it now. very good and along the lines of what you're talking about. the paperback is about $17.

Thanks for the heads up. Seriously.

[Purple & Gold]

Oh fucking really?

This "loan" is going to fucking kill the dollar...today, tomorrow and into our grandchildren's time. These "illiquid" assets are exactly that. Worth next to nothing, of which the US taxpayer is going to pay nearly 4x market price for.

It will never turn a profit, it will be nothing but a drain on our economy for the next 30 years, if our economy as we know it is even still around by that time.

Will it be a depression? No, it wont. But barring some wonderful technological advancement (like the internet), it will the longest, most severe recession of this country's history.

I personally believe this was planned. Drive the value of the dollar into the ground....purposely. Devalue the buying power of the American people so as they will be capitulant to the coming "economic changeover".

People dont like conspiracies, or tinfoil hats...I can understand that. To an extent. But these same banks (JP Morgan) and instituions (Federal Reserve) are the same banks and institutions of the past who have subverted the constitution to create the Federal Reserve, tried a military coup against FDR, were at the very least cohorts in prolonging the Great Depression and any other myriad of world affairs.

Theyve been mentioned by JFK as a "cabal" who "are interested in the subversive takeover of this country", by Woodrow Wilson as "the greatest mistake I have ever made" and other numerous President's, foreign officials and the like.

So, laugh me off. But when a certain something happens in the next five years (or so), I'll give you a link to a prediction that was made in the 1920s about where this country would be economically in 100+ years. This entire process (big boom, massive illiegitimate credit, big crunch, massive bailouts, ultimate devaluation of the US Dollar, etc) was predicted to a fucking tee.

Its not a systemic problem, its a very calculated attack. But again, laugh me off. I probably lost all credibility with this post (if I had any to begin with). Whatever. Im sick of not saying it out loud.

Of course it was planned it's been the plan all along. Ask any honest repub (I know they're hard to find) but they will tell you that a weak dollar is good because it stimulates exports and tourism. Yes this bailout is not a great solution, but it's better than the alternative which would be a strong strong recession maybe even depression.

These huge companies have fleeced the taxpayers once again with their doctoring of the books and giving themselves huge bonuses right before getting bailed out by the taxpayer. Is it right and honest? No. More than likely criminal, but it was breeded by this "free market" "big business" is always right mantra. The country is way to dependent on these banks (and market confidence) that if they were to just be allowed to go belly up then we will be in a much much worse situation. It's basically pick your poison. And the no government intervention is the worst poison possible. It should have been regulated from the get go. Which repubs and free market nutjobs/criminals will never allow.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Thanks for the heads up. Seriously.no prob

[DarkReign]

I think Kennedy was talking about Communism.

Might be wrong.


I could see how you would think that, but the entire quote (which I could not find, admittedly, I didnt spend much time looking for it) specifically states "banking cabal".


My bad. He doesnt say "banking cabal". He says "secret societies".

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Its the speech that got him killed.