Just need to say this.

[Cry Havoc]

For the record (since some seem to think I'm a "lib" on this forum), when Obama won the nominee for POTUS, I was actually 50/50. I thought that both potential Presidents were a huge step over Bush. Speaking of which, I supported Bush Jr. over Gore, and Bush over Dukakis. I was pretty split on Kerry/Bush, but I think that was a lose-lose either way. So I fail to see how that makes me a lib., because I have been a moderate/independent voter since I began paying attention to politics. Label me as you will though, it won't change my vote. :lol

I still do think this is an opportunity for upgrade either way, to an extent. But the outright ridiculousness with which McCain has conducted himself has shifted me from 50/50 to 100/0 in support of Obama. I actually fear what happens to this country if McCain gets elected. I don't think he has the intellect required to run this country, and his nominee for VP was nothing short of attention seeking behavior. And the level to which posters like Whottt and others defend EVERY SINGLE THING McCain does absolutely sickens me. It's precisely what's wrong with this country.

Think about it: Sports fans are among the FIRST people to call management out for making errors. We dissect, discuss, and get down and dirty into the intricacies of nearly every decision the Spurs FO makes. If they screw up, we are OUTRAGED at their idiocy.

It's sad that the same can't be said for politics. The nominees (yes, Obama too) might as well don a robe and start talking about restoring sight to the blind, because they are holy as far as their party is concerned. It removes any accountability in the situation and blinds so many to a potentially better way of choosing a commander in chief of the entire country.

I am so frustrated by all this that I cannot even post in threads because I get too pissed off with the idiotic rationalities of those who idolize and idealize with each of their respective political entities.

I CHALLENGE those posting here at Spurstalk: Stop looking at your candidate like he's a Messiah. I think there seems to be more of this towards McCain, but I would really like to see Obama ridiculed by the left as well, if for no other reason to know that we still have people who are willing to be more than sheep when it comes to politics. You don't have to support everything your candidate does. And it really doesn't count if you have to go back 10 years to find something that pisses you off about candidate x.

Think for yourself: Hold your candidates accountable for stupid shit they say and do! And vote. Doesn't matter if your state leans heavily one way. Just vote. Or STFU and GTFO.

[CubanMustGo]

+1

[byrontx]

It's still an upgrade with either one but that is not saying much.

[Findog]

McCain supporters are by and large not intellectually honest. If McCain had to have a pro-life woman so bad, I got two names for you: Kay Bailey Hutchison and Elizabeth Dole. Neither one of them would make me tremble for this country if they had to assume the office of POTUS, and neither one of them would've killed the GOP's "experience" arguments against Obama. Dole has been a Senator, head of the Red Cross and Secretary of HHS. Hutchison has been a Senator for quite some time. You don't imperil the country by picking somebody so out of their league to be your running mate.

[fyatuk]

And vote. Doesn't matter if your state leans heavily one way. Just vote. Or STFU and GTFO.

While I agree with the rest of your post, here I have to say no.

No candidate is worthy of my vote, so I will not denigrate myself to vote for them.

[101A]

For the record (since some seem to think I'm a "lib" on this forum), when Obama won the nominee for POTUS, I was actually 50/50. I thought that both potential Presidents were a huge step over Bush. Speaking of which, I supported Bush Jr. over Gore, and Bush over Dukakis. I was pretty split on Kerry/Bush, but I think that was a lose-lose either way. So I fail to see how that makes me a lib., because I have been a moderate/independent voter since I began paying attention to politics. Label me as you will though, it won't change my vote. :lol

I still do think this is an opportunity for upgrade either way, to an extent. But the outright ridiculousness with which McCain has conducted himself has shifted me from 50/50 to 100/0 in support of Obama. I actually fear what happens to this country if McCain gets elected. I don't think he has the intellect required to run this country, and his nominee for VP was nothing short of attention seeking behavior. And the level to which posters like Whottt and others defend EVERY SINGLE THING McCain does absolutely sickens me. It's precisely what's wrong with this country.

Think about it: Sports fans are among the FIRST people to call management out for making errors. We dissect, discuss, and get down and dirty into the intricacies of nearly every decision the Spurs FO makes. If they screw up, we are OUTRAGED at their idiocy.

It's sad that the same can't be said for politics. The nominees (yes, Obama too) might as well don a robe and start talking about restoring sight to the blind, because they are holy as far as their party is concerned. It removes any accountability in the situation and blinds so many to a potentially better way of choosing a commander in chief of the entire country.

I am so frustrated by all this that I cannot even post in threads because I get too pissed off with the idiotic rationalities of those who idolize and idealize with each of their respective political entities.

I CHALLENGE those posting here at Spurstalk: Stop looking at your candidate like he's a Messiah. I think there seems to be more of this towards McCain, but I would really like to see Obama ridiculed by the left as well, if for no other reason to know that we still have people who are willing to be more than sheep when it comes to politics. You don't have to support everything your candidate does. And it really doesn't count if you have to go back 10 years to find something that pisses you off about candidate x.

Think for yourself: Hold your candidates accountable for stupid shit they say and do! And vote. Doesn't matter if your state leans heavily one way. Just vote. Or STFU and GTFO.

Obama is a liberal. His is going to do liberal things, and support liberal programs. He has a liberal voting record in Congress, and has promised a liberal agenda. I take him at his word. He could be the most intelligent, most well-spoken, most vetted and honest man alive, but with that agenda, I will not support him. His ideas and views of what this country needs are not mine.

I am voting on ISSUES, not on candidates.

That said, I think we don't know WHO Obama is. He HAS NOT been vetted; or scrutinized by the media. There are questions about his past that remain unanswered, and no critiqued. He has not done anything remarkable in the Senate OTHER than run for president. Hillary was right when she noted that his single greatest foreign policy achievment was a speach he delivered while a STATE SENATOR in Illinois. He is, paraphrasing Biden, a clean, articulate, charismatic black man. That is what makes him exceptional; not his career, not his politics, and certainly not his ideas. He has admitted to USING (not experimenting with) cocaine! I have heard more about Scott Palin's DWI from 20 years ago than that! He was a mediocre, not exceptional, student, most certainly the beneficiary of affirmative action plans. Had he been white, he probably never would have gotten into Harvard. Hell, I watched a show on PBS last night on his background, and a friend of his talked about him losing his bid for Congress in '00 as, "The single toughest moment in his life". REALLY??? That's as tough as it has gotten for Obama? Can you honestly say HE is ready for the White House????

He doesn't have to run as dirty a campaign as McCain, he's got the media riding shotgun 24/7 - HE only has to suggest that McCain "suspended his campaign" for political reasons once, and the media has reported and investigated it consistently ever since. They WANT to prove Obama right. McCain doesn't get that kind of help.

CH, I appreciate your position, but I think you have fallen for the Obama mystique, and not the real Obama, because, frankly, we don't know who that is.

And again, even if he is "real", I wouldn't vote for him. He's liberal.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

There's only a small number of posters in the political forum that don't act the way Havoc is talking about, the rest spew nothing more than idiotic partisan bullshit. Its not something that is going to stop any time soon.

Suffice to say most people in this forum already know who they're going to vote for and absolutely NOTHING is going to change their mind (no matter how much they claim to have really considered the other side).

[Cry Havoc]

Obama is a liberal. His is going to do liberal things, and support liberal programs. He has a liberal voting record in Congress, and has promised a liberal agenda. I take him at his word. He could be the most intelligent, most well-spoken, most vetted and honest man alive, but with that agenda, I will not support him. His ideas and views of what this country needs are not mine.

I am voting on ISSUES, not on candidates.

That said, I think we don't know WHO Obama is. He HAS NOT been vetted; or scrutinized by the media. There are questions about his past that remain unanswered, and no critiqued. He has not done anything remarkable in the Senate OTHER than run for president. Hillary was right when she noted that his single greatest foreign policy achievment was a speach he delivered while a STATE SENATOR in Illinois. He is, paraphrasing Biden, a clean, articulate, charismatic black man. That is what makes him exceptional; not his career, not his politics, and certainly not his ideas. He has admitted to USING (not experimenting with) cocaine! I have heard more about Scott Palin's DWI from 20 years ago than that! He was a mediocre, not exceptional, student, most certainly the beneficiary of affirmative action plans. Had he been white, he probably never would have gotten into Harvard. Hell, I watched a show on PBS last night on his background, and a friend of his talked about him losing his bid for Congress in '00 as, "The single toughest moment in his life". REALLY??? That's as tough as it has gotten for Obama? Can you honestly say HE is ready for the White House????

He doesn't have to run as dirty a campaign as McCain, he's got the media riding shotgun 24/7 - HE only has to suggest that McCain "suspended his campaign" for political reasons once, and the media has reported and investigated it consistently ever since. They WANT to prove Obama right. McCain doesn't get that kind of help.

CH, I appreciate your position, but I think you have fallen for the Obama mystique, and not the real Obama, because, frankly, we don't know who that is.

And again, even if he is "real", I wouldn't vote for him. He's liberal.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. The minute you start talking about "the Obama mystique", you have already removed yourself from the point of objectivity. Even after I make a post that says, "hold BOTH candidates responsible", you respond that I am treating Obama like a messianic figure because I am going to vote for him. Where do you get such notions? There are numerous problems I have with the senator from Illinois. People claiming media bias cannot be more blind to the facts. WHO has gotten the most press coverage over the past two weeks? None other than Ms. Palin, which the media (not to mention nearly every republican I know) went ga-ga crazy for.

So again. Present the argument that Obama has no experience. Then tell me again how much you love Sarah Palin. You CANNOT tell me for certain that McCain survives his first term in office. At that point, it's President Palin. It is precisely that ridiculous double-standard that the republican party has adopted that makes me feel ill for this country. Does it win elections? Absolutely. The democrats bicker over themselves and tear each other down. The republicans would/do/will find ways to spin anything McCain or Palin says into pure gold.


HE only has to suggest that McCain "suspended his campaign" for political reasons once, and the media has reported and investigated it consistently ever since. McCain doesn't get that kind of help.

Why did McCain suspend his campaign. Because the economy is on the verge of collapse? This is the same John McCain who said only a week ago that the fundamentals of our economy are strong, and now he wants to suspend his campaign because of how weak the economy is?

Please. Please. Just answer me this: How can you possibly give any evidence for the economic competence of John McCain, given the past week? Please explain his statement about the economy being strong. No other McCain supporter has yet. I'm curious to see if it's even possible.

[Cry Havoc]

While I agree with the rest of your post, here I have to say no.

No candidate is worthy of my vote, so I will not denigrate myself to vote for them.

Then vote for Ron Paul or one of the other independents. Or cast an absentee ballot?

[fyatuk]

Then vote for Ron Paul or one of the other independents. Or cast an absentee ballot?

Did I say "neither"? No, I said "no". As in none of them, even third parties and independents.

I will not vote for someone I don't approve of. Period.

[101A]

Please. Please. Just answer me this: How can you possibly give any evidence for the economic competence of John McCain, given the past week? Please explain his statement about the economy being strong. No other McCain supporter has yet. I'm curious to see if it's even possible.

I don't think McCain is particularly strong on the economy; nor do I think he will make a great president. I don't particularly like John McCain, or Sarah Palin. I don't think she is qualified to be President any more, or less than Obama. I thought I said as much, maybe not.

The FIRST and LAST things I said however were that I wasn't voting for Obama because of his policies and political ideology. Those are the exact reasons I AM going to vote for McCain. His are closer to mine than Obama's. Really has nothing to do with WHO they are. It's the policies.

Look it other threads if you question; hell look in the thread about McCain's suspension and jump to Washington, I was the first to call it purely political.

[Anti.Hero]

Obama is a liberal. His is going to do liberal things, and support liberal programs. He has a liberal voting record in Congress, and has promised a liberal agenda. I take him at his word. He could be the most intelligent, most well-spoken, most vetted and honest man alive, but with that agenda, I will not support him. His ideas and views of what this country needs are not mine.

I am voting on ISSUES, not on candidates.

That said, I think we don't know WHO Obama is. He HAS NOT been vetted; or scrutinized by the media. There are questions about his past that remain unanswered, and no critiqued. He has not done anything remarkable in the Senate OTHER than run for president. Hillary was right when she noted that his single greatest foreign policy achievment was a speach he delivered while a STATE SENATOR in Illinois. He is, paraphrasing Biden, a clean, articulate, charismatic black man. That is what makes him exceptional; not his career, not his politics, and certainly not his ideas. He has admitted to USING (not experimenting with) cocaine! I have heard more about Scott Palin's DWI from 20 years ago than that! He was a mediocre, not exceptional, student, most certainly the beneficiary of affirmative action plans. Had he been white, he probably never would have gotten into Harvard. Hell, I watched a show on PBS last night on his background, and a friend of his talked about him losing his bid for Congress in '00 as, "The single toughest moment in his life". REALLY??? That's as tough as it has gotten for Obama? Can you honestly say HE is ready for the White House????

He doesn't have to run as dirty a campaign as McCain, he's got the media riding shotgun 24/7 - HE only has to suggest that McCain "suspended his campaign" for political reasons once, and the media has reported and investigated it consistently ever since. They WANT to prove Obama right. McCain doesn't get that kind of help.

CH, I appreciate your position, but I think you have fallen for the Obama mystique, and not the real Obama, because, frankly, we don't know who that is.

And again, even if he is "real", I wouldn't vote for him. He's liberal.

Exactly.

[RandomGuy]

Suffice to say most people in this forum already know who they're going to vote for and absolutely NOTHING is going to change their mind (no matter how much they claim to have really considered the other side).

Yup. Quite honestly:

I would be voting for any Democrat, simply because they are a Democrat. Obama, Hillary, that wastebasket, whatever, as long as they don't have an "R" behind their name.

Bush and the GOP operatives in his administration failed in their sacred duty to provide our troops with the best possible leadership in Iraq during the first 4 years or so of the occupation. We got political litmus tests and partisan ideology over competence and realistic strategy, and that cost untold lives.

I cannot forgive the Republican party for that. If for nothing else, they deserve to be fired, en masse. Some of them, should be tried for at least negligence, if not outright treason for that violation of sacred duty.

[Ocotillo]

Did I say "neither"? No, I said "no". As in none of them, even third parties and independents.

I will not vote for someone I don't approve of. Period.

Go ahead and write you own name in then, you likely are as qualified as Palin.

[RandomGuy]

Anybody who thinks that the next president will really get into the office and live up to the really left or really right policies or promises is deluding themselves. That isn't the way our government works. Moderates hold a lot more power than most people seem to think.

I don't think anybody is really "ready" for the presidency. The big thing for me is whether or not the people that work under the president are competent, clear-minded people.

McCain has, alarmingly, taken on so many of the same slimy Bush team that were exactly the kinds of people we don't need in goverment, that I even if I thought he was physically and mentally capable of the job, I would not vote for him.

All things considered, the first REAL test of a person's ability to be president is the campaign.

McCain's campaign organization has been grabasstic, to be kind. Obama's has made some mistakes here and there, but I have been highly impressed at the level of organization and discipline they have demonstrated.

Obama does not walk on water. He will not make things instantly better. He is not really a good campaigner, as he is a bit too wonkish and intellectual. The best thing I can say about the man is that he really can grasp the subtleties of situations.

But if his campaign organization is any indication of how he will govern, I am not only comfortable with that, I am confident the nation would be in good hands.

[101A]

McCain has, alarmingly, taken on so many of the same slimy Bush team


Which ones?

[2centsworth]

Which ones?

don't waste your time. that's a wanna be accountant/financial guru that I rip to shreds on a regular basis. In fact, he has me on ignore like a little you know what.

[2centsworth]

Cry Havoc,

I criticize the bush administration all the time and not just today. The left never, ever, criticizes their candidate. In fact, your post is about as close as I have heard to criticism of Obama. Most of the posters on here are partisan hacks, but there are a rare few that are open to new ideas.

[101A]

Really good article, IMO, on point for this thread.
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13892.html)

John Kerry II versus George Bush III


By JOHN F. HARRIS (http://www.politico.com/reporters/JohnFHarris.html) & JIM VANDEHEI (http://www.politico.com/reporters/JimVandeHei.html) | 9/25/08 4:58 AM EDT
This was supposed to be the year when everything about presidential politics would change. Instead, the 2008 campaign is hurtling toward its conclusion as a year in which most things have stayed drearily the same.

Recall the early promise of 2008: There would be two candidates who spent the past several years expressing disdain for the stale partisanship of Washington and the stupid pet tricks that characterize presidential campaigns. There was an electorate supposedly hungering not for a change of leaders but a change in the fundamental ways in which politicians compete and debate ideas and solve problems.

For the first time in over 30 years there would be a campaign with no one named Bush or Clinton on the ticket. New personalities would drive new coalitions, as some liberals embraced John McCain’s independent-mindedness and spontaneity and some conservatives responded to Obama's earnest appeals to transcend old ideological and cultural divides.

New personalities and new coalitions, in turn, would create a new map—as the whole nation would be in play rather than a targeted set of battleground states.

Well, forget it: Six weeks before Election Day, a day before the first scheduled debate, the forces of innovation and authenticity are being routed by the forces of conventionality and cliché.

There are many reasons why this is so. Part of the answer is that Obama and McCain are more timid and less creative figures than they looked to be a year ago.
The larger story is that the incentives in American politics rewarding politics as usual—especially in our own business, the media—are far more powerful than either candidate’s tentative and inconsistent impulses to challenge politics as usual.

New candidates? In their rhetorical thrusts, and policy agendas there are few if any stark differences between McCain’s campaign this year and George W. Bush’s in 2004, or between Obama’s and John F. Kerry’s.

New coalitions? It sounded intriguing, but it seems increasingly unlikely. Evangelical voters, for instance, favor McCain (57 percent to 20 percent) by essentially the same margin they backed Bush in 2004, according to a study by the widely respected John Green of the University of Akron. Obama’s hopes basically rest on the same strategy that nearly worked for Kerry: Amped up turnout by young people, urban minorities, and upscale liberals, especially women who support abortion rights.

A new map? It’s definitely a little wider than in 2004, thanks to Obama’s big financial edge and his ability to compete seriously in a small number of traditionally Republican states like Virginia. But, a recent video sent by the Obama campaign to supporters identified just 17 battleground states, and the campaign is retreating from states like North Dakota and Montana. In the end, the most likely state to determine the race is, as in 2004, Ohio.

Even the one bold move of recent months—McCain’s selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate—served mainly to reframe the race along old lines in the culture wars.

The durability of these old habits even as new issues and problems—the financial crisis, energy prices, the situation in Iraq, elite opinion about the science behind global warming—change dramatically suggests a political culture with a dangerous inability to adapt to circumstances.

There are at least five major reasons why American politics is stuck in a rut:

*Media madness. Reporters complain about the lack of spontaneity in politics. Then we punish spontaneity by ensuring that any impolitic comment gets played and replayed, often simplified and distorted in each replaying—usually accompanied with disapproving analysis about a candidate’s lack of discipline and inability to stay on message.

The lack of press access to both candidates this fall is frustrating. But the truth is McCain would be foolish to indulge in the kind of free-flowing, free-associating conversations that won such notice in 2000. Obama’s natural instincts are to tightly control his image and words, which works nicely in this media environment.

An unscripted campaign would be more interesting and more useful to voters, but it would require two unlikely ingredients: Candidates self-confident enough to throw out the script, and a news media that would devote as much attention to ideas as to gaffes.

[wut]

Both sides fail because they can't put party politics aside to do the work of the people!