Death Penalty: If this is true, I'm disgusted so much with the population as a whole

[MannyIsGod]

Uh, This is mindblowing to me...



Fatal errors don't kill support for executions

Web Posted: 02/11/2005 12:00 AM CST

Maro Robbins
San Antonio Express-News

Most Americans believe innocent people have been executed but, according to a study of death penalty attitudes released Thursday, most also believe capital punishment is applied fairly.

"That, to me, is unbelievable," said James Unnever, a co-author of the report that appears in this month's edition of Criminology & Public Policy.

Unnever and a fellow sociologist Francis Cullen set out to examine whether support for capital punishment would be shaken by proof that the system made fatal mistakes.

The answer was a qualified yes when the authors analyzed a May 2003 Gallup Poll of 1,005 adults, which had a 3-point margin of error.

Seventy-five percent of respondents said they believed an innocent person had been executed in the last five years. At the same time, 64 percent believed that capital punishment was applied fairly.

The answers may seem contradictory at first glance, said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center.

But people who believe the system is fair, even if it kills the wrong person, may believe that mistakes are exceedingly rare while most of the time the death penalty is deserved and effective.

"They believe there may come cases where they'll be 100 percent sure ... the bodies are all over and the videotape shows it," said Dieter, whose group was not involved in the study.

While 118 death row inmates have been exonerated and released, no one has conclusively shown that an innocent person has been executed.

The study also found striking difference in the way whites and blacks reacted to wrongful executions.

Among African Americans who believe innocent people have been executed, support for capital punishment plummets by 51 percent.

In contrast, support for the death penalty dipped 13 percent among whites who believed that wrong people were executed.

The authors speculated that many whites see the death penalty as a distant event, unlikely to affect them. Meanwhile, nearly half (44 percent) of death row inmates are African American.

"When a black thinks about an innocent person being executed, it's 'by the grace of God, that wasn't me,'" said Unnever, a sociology professor at Radford University in Virginia.

The authors concluded that an execution of an innocent person would erode, but not erase, national support for the death penalty — which stood at 66 percent in 2000, according to Gallup.

Additionally, they suggested that more than half of the nation will continue to support capital punishment unless Americans come to see wrongful executions as an unavoidable and recurring flaw in the criminal justice system.

[Clandestino]

No system is perfect. The polls shows that the majority of Americans understand that, but still think our justice system is doing a great job.

[MannyIsGod]

No system is perfect. The polls shows that the majority of Americans understand that, but still think our justice system is doing a great job.


So the justification for the death penalty is what exactly?

[Bandit2981]

wow, you know this article reminds me of that movie The Life of David Gale(i think was the title)...a great movie about this very argument, highly recommended!!

[MannyIsGod]

That was a great movie. Kevin Spacey is awesome.

[Useruser666]

I believe there are crimes in which death is a fitting punishment.

[Spurminator]

I think I'm going to take a break from this one.

I'll probably see you guys around page 6 or 7.

[Extra Stout]

To me, the death penalty in theory is fine. There is nothing morally wrong with the concept of executing somebody for certain egregious crimes.

But the devil is in the details.

[exstatic]

So the justification for the death penalty is what exactly?

So they don't kill again when they get out? It has happened, and probably more often than a bogus execution. It's not a deterrent to others, but certainly deters THAT killer from killing again.

[attyjackiechiles]

The death penalty is a sentence that cannot be reversed or appealed after it is carried out. One can always be released from a life sentence.

The act is lewd, crude...outrageous!!

[NeoConIV]

In a nutshell:

I have been climbing down the fence on this issue over the last several months, and must say that I am now against the death penalty, with some caveats.

I am saddened that prisons have become so damned soft. Sending a rapist/murderer away for life in an institution with a complete array of creature comforts is an abomination. Period. It's disgusting how criminals are pampered in prison.

I understand all the arguements for the death penalty, and on many levels I agree with those arguements, primarily the death penalty as a deterrent. But it's just not in me anymore.

[SPARKY]

I don't think prisons today are that comfortable.

[NeoConIV]

Too comfortable for the worst of criminals, the rapist/murderers. Those currently eligible for the death penalty. Way too comfortable. Cable, three hots and a cot, leisure activities...

that's too much comfort for my tastes, but hey, to each his own.

[bigzak25]

there are casualties of war....innocent people die all the time....i was happy to hear our President speak on the issue in the state of the union....




Because one of the main sources of our national unity is our belief in equal justice, we need to make sure Americans of all races and backgrounds have confidence in the system that provides justice. In America we must make doubly sure no person is held to account for a crime he or she did not commit -- so we are dramatically expanding the use of DNA evidence to prevent wrongful conviction. Soon I will send to Congress a proposal to fund special training for defense counsel in capital cases, because people on trial for their lives must have competent lawyers by their side.

[SPARKY]

When was the last time you were in a prison?

[NeoConIV]

Never been, but have seen plenty reports on the subject.

What do you think is a just sentance for a rapist/murderer?

[MannyIsGod]

Life in prison, and I agree that prison is much to comfortable at times.

[Extra Stout]

From what I understand, the anal rape is not very comfortable.

[GoldToe]

"American Me" scared the shit of out me.

[ClintSquint]

Many hombres were strung up and given the death penalty without a trial back in the old west and I'm sure many were innocent.
In today's age of DNA this should not be the case.

[Dre_7]

My thoughts on the death penalty:
I believe in the death penalty. It just has to be done right. There has to be no doubt of the mans/womans guily. I feel there are certain crimes which warrant the death penalty. For example murder, mass murder (ie 9/11/01), etc. But I also think some crimes that are not murder, yes you read that right, warrant the death penalty as well. For example, a guy here, I think his name was darrin smith or something like that, brutally raped several woman. He also kidnapped and brutally raped several young girls between the ages of 6-8. He also videotaped those evil acts. Police, and others who had to view the tapes, said they where horrible. One judge said something to the effect of in his over 20 years in his field, that he had never seen something that awful. The girls where crying, screaming, and calling out for their mommies while this asshole was raping them. Their lives were ruined! Now if someone can see that, and not support the death penalty, I dont understand their viewpoint on justice. The guy was sentenced to over 108 yrs in prison. I personally think he shoulda got the death penalty. But thats just me.

[Clandestino]

My thoughts on the death penalty:
I believe in the death penalty. It just has to be done right. There has to be no doubt of the mans/womans guily. I feel there are certain crimes which warrant the death penalty. For example murder, mass murder (ie 9/11/01), etc. But I also think some crimes that are not murder, yes you read that right, warrant the death penalty as well. For example, a guy here, I think his name was darrin smith or something like that, brutally raped several woman. He also kidnapped and brutally raped several young girls between the ages of 6-8. He also videotaped those evil acts. Police, and others who had to view the tapes, said they where horrible. One judge said something to the effect of in his over 20 years in his field, that he had never seen something that awful. The girls where crying, screaming, and calling out for their mommies while this asshole was raping them. Their lives were ruined! Now if someone can see that, and not support the death penalty, I dont understand their viewpoint on justice. The guy was sentenced to over 108 yrs in prison. I personally think he shoulda got the death penalty. But thats just me.

exactly... death penalty all the way for a guy like this.

[Clandestino]

wow, you know this article reminds me of that movie The Life of David Gale(i think was the title)...a great movie about this very argument, highly recommended!!

david gale was not innocent. he was an accomplice to the woman's murder.

[Spurminator]

What would the death penalty accomplish in that case that life in prison would fail to accomplish?

Do you really think any single serial pedophile rapist would suddenly change their ways as a result of his execution?

[Clandestino]

i have a friend who works at a prison. it is a minimum security federal prison. they still have rapists there and murderers. the prison has softball tournaments and other functions with teams from both the civilian and prison population playing against each other...

[Clandestino]

What would the death penalty accomplish in that case that life in prison would fail to accomplish?

Do you really think any single serial pedophile rapist would suddenly change their ways as a result of his execution?

why should someone who committed crimes like this deserve to live and keep using our taxpayer money? he basically took the lives of numerous women..why does he deserve to keep his?

[Spurminator]

I don't see that "deserving" should enter into the equation.

[ididnotnothat]

Doesn't "deserving" enter into every equation when it comes to sentencing?

Doesn't a judge hand out the sentence he feels the defendant "deserves"?

Perhaps he may feel the defendant is "deserving" of another chance?

[Useruser666]

What would the death penalty accomplish in that case that life in prison would fail to accomplish?

Do you really think any single serial pedophile rapist would suddenly change their ways as a result of his execution?

Then you have a bunch of killers behind bars. Someone has to guard those killers and keep them locked up. Unless they are in solitary then they are a danger to each other and to the guards. Why risk the lives of innocent people in the prison system?

[Jekka]

why should someone who committed crimes like this deserve to live and keep using our taxpayer money? he basically took the lives of numerous women..why does he deserve to keep his?

It costs more of your taxpayer money to put a person on death row through all of their appeals and executionary et cetera than it does to convict a person and keep them in prison without an execution sentence. The death penalty is too costly and ineffective in terms of being a criminal deterrant, which is, arguably, a chief reason for its continued existence.

[IcemanCometh]

we just need that ice machine they had in demolition man

[Clandestino]

It costs more of your taxpayer money to put a person on death row through all of their appeals and executionary et cetera than it does to convict a person and keep them in prison without an execution sentence. The death penalty is too costly and ineffective in terms of being a criminal deterrant, which is, arguably, a chief reason for its continued existence.

that is what the human rights organizations would like to make you believe.

if a 25 year old commits murder and gets life. we can expect to house him with full medical and dental care, in some places a college degree, etc for at least 40 years. that is very costly...and that is probably a minimum age... plus the cost of 1 dollar in 40 years is way more expensive than the cost of 1 dollar today with inflation.

also, they don't learn with just prison time:

Of the 3,581 inmates on Death Row as of January 1, 2003:

64.3% had a prior felony conviction at the time of the murder.
and
27.8% were on probation, or parole at the time of the murder.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm

[Clandestino]

what do you think these killers deserve?


http://img50.exs.cx/img50/9923/chapmanmarco1mq.jpg
On the morning of August 23rd, 2002, this killer murdered a seven-year-old girl and a six-year-old boy in their home in Warsaw Kentucky. Both of the childrens' throats had been slit and they suffered multiple lacerations and stab wounds on their bodies. Their ten year old sister played dead after also being stabbed several times. The hands of the mother were bound with duct tape and she was tied to the bed frame. She was raped and stabbed in the chest with a knife that broke off in her chest. She was later stabbed with a larger knife and left for dead. After stabbing the victims, the killer burglarized the home and left the scene. He was arrested later the same day in West Virginia.

http://img50.exs.cx/img50/636/victortaylor2rg.jpg
This killer kidnapped, robbed, bound, gagged and executed two high school students who became lost on their way to a football game in Jefferson County in 1984. The killer sodomized one of the victims before executing him. The killer told four people he had killed the victims. The personal property of the victims was found in his possession.

http://img50.exs.cx/img50/9183/karuwhite4kk.jpg
This killer beat three senior citizens to death in the course of a robbery in Powell County in 1979. They were ages 74, 75 and 79. Due to the brutal nature of the fatal beatings, they had to be buried in body bags.

If you would like more reasons for the death penalty click here to see more scum:

http://www.lexingtonprosecutor.com/death_row.htm

[ididnotnothat]

If only there was a way to talk to the innocent victims of the death penalty.
Oh, that's right, THEIR DEAD!

[Useruser666]

Yeah, how many of those have been proven innocent, and how many life'rs have killed again?

[MannyIsGod]

See, the thing is you can't argue for the death penalty by saying that other aspects of the criminal justice system don't work.

Here's an idea...

FIX THE FUCKING SYSTEM

[Spurminator]

Yep.

[desflood]

Somebody's gonna hate me for saying this, but I believe the number of appeals for convicted killers and rapists should be limited (but ONLY in cases with inarguable DNA evidence). From all the stories you hear, it seems like many prisoners are on death row for 30 years because they've been appealing over and over again for 25 of them.

[bigzak25]

agreed des,

i too have heard that death penalty is more expensive than life terms.

in that case. Fix the system. Injections are cheap.

throwing out the trash doesn't mean there won't be more. but it keeps it from piling up and stinking up the whole house.

[ididnotnothat]

Prisons are expensive. Inject them all.

[MannyIsGod]

Another thing people fail to realize. They argue for the death penalty over other methods of purnishment as if it's actually used on a regular basis.

It's HARDLY FUCKING USED!

It's used to little Idon't know how it does any of the following effectivly:

1. saves money
2. keeps people off of the street
3. makes it harder on criminals

[Useruser666]

It is the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime.

[MannyIsGod]

Really? Well it's a godamn shame that minorities and many poor people on death row don't get the ultimate counsel on their side now isn't it?

49.7% of people on death row are black.

They must be the ultimate race.

Sure, the death penalty is an equal punishment applied equaly. My ass. It's the ultimate crock of shit.

[Useruser666]

What I said had nothing to do with race. Don't make it about that.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure, what you said had nothing to do about race. I'm not calling you racist. I'm pointing out that your ultimate system is ultimately racist.

[Guru of Nothing]

Fix the system.

I suggested this a couple of years ago. Here goes again. Banish the worst criminals to a world in which they walk freely amongst their peers.

Eliminate the death penalty completely. Eliminate every maximum security prison (except for 1). Then fence off, in a VERY maximum security way, 10, 000 square miles in the middle of bumfuck, Nevada, and turn every prisoner loose (who would otherwise be sentenced to a traditional maximum security prison) in this new open-air prison.

I won't delve into all the boring logistics, except to say that prisoners would be offered a warm bunk in the winter; all the beans, rice and tortillas they could want (plus the utensils with which to cook said beans and rice; not to mention a plethora of spices). Throw in books, medical care, and the like, and they are set.

Additionally, provide some sort of industry so that these criminals could offset some of the cost associated with running this prison. Range-free chicken farming seems like a natural fit. They could supplement their beans and rice diet with chicken, and sell the rest.

It might be a dangerous place to be a prisoner, and that is why I would retain one traditional maximum security prison. A prisoner, at sentencing, could decline being transferred to the open-air Nevada facility, and instead opt for four walls and iron bars. If it were me, I'd be going west.

Sounds crazy, but, why the F* not do this?

[desflood]

I wonder how quickly the bleeding hearts at the ACLU would begin to clamor at the "civil rights violations". But to those of us with a little more sense, it sounds like a decent idea.

[desflood]

fgjh

[desflood]

Sorry, kids hit the keyboard, then I hit the wrong button as I was editing.

[Clandestino]

Fix the system.

I suggested this a couple of years ago. Here goes again. Banish the worst criminals to a world in which they walk freely amongst their peers.

Eliminate the death penalty completely. Eliminate every maximum security prison (except for 1). Then fence off, in a VERY maximum security way, 10, 000 square miles in the middle of bumfuck, Nevada, and turn every prisoner loose (who would otherwise be sentenced to a traditional maximum security prison) in this new open-air prison.

I won't delve into all the boring logistics, except to say that prisoners would be offered a warm bunk in the winter; all the beans, rice and tortillas they could want (plus the utensils with which to cook said beans and rice; not to mention a plethora of spices). Throw in books, medical care, and the like, and they are set.

Additionally, provide some sort of industry so that these criminals could offset some of the cost associated with running this prison. Range-free chicken farming seems like a natural fit. They could supplement their beans and rice diet with chicken, and sell the rest.

It might be a dangerous place to be a prisoner, and that is why I would retain one traditional maximum security prison. A prisoner, at sentencing, could decline being transferred to the open-air Nevada facility, and instead opt for four walls and iron bars. If it were me, I'd be going west.

Sounds crazy, but, why the F* not do this?

it would be dangerous to be a guard at one of these free-range prisons!

[Clandestino]

Really? Well it's a godamn shame that minorities and many poor people on death row don't get the ultimate counsel on their side now isn't it?

49.7% of people on death row are black.

They must be the ultimate race.

Sure, the death penalty is an equal punishment applied equaly. My ass. It's the ultimate crock of shit.


Percent of death row that is White: 55.0%
Percent of death row that is African-American: 42.9%
Percent of death row that is Hispanic: 11.2%
Percent of death row that is Native American: 0.8%
Percent of death row that is Asian: 0.9%

http://www.westernprisonproject.org/PrisonIndex/Section_1/DeathPenalty.html

[MannyIsGod]

from your page...



Dollars & death

* Estimated cost of a death penalty trial, in dollars: $2 million
* Number of times a capital trial is more expensive than a non-capital trial, in California: 6
* Amount that California could save per year by abolishing capital punishment: $90 million
* Cost in New Jersey in 1991 to impose the death penalty: $16 million
* Number of police laid off in New Jersey in 1992 due to lack of funds to pay them: 500
* Ratio of spending in Jasper County, Mississippi on one capital trial in 1995 to its spending on libraries: 5 to 1

[Duff McCartney]

If you kill somebody...you should be killed.

[Clandestino]

from your page...

the numbers i posted from the site were concrete numbers.. the numbers you chose to post were mainly estimates..and one had nothing to do with the death penalty at all.

also, nj spending 16 million to impose the death penalty is worth it i believe if it prevents even 1 person from ever slipping through the cracks and getting out of prison and harming someone..

also, a murderer on the outside, can still kill someone on the inside if he is in the general population.. maybe someone is in prison for tax fraud and he crosses that lifer that has nothing to live for anyway... the lifer(who should be on death row) could kill him too.

[Guru of Nothing]

* Ratio of spending in Jasper County, Mississippi on one capital trial in 1995 to its spending on libraries: 5 to 1

Sounds like a win/win for the taxpayers of Mississippi.

[MannyIsGod]

the numbers i posted from the site were concrete numbers.. the numbers you chose to post were mainly estimates..and one had nothing to do with the death penalty at all.

also, nj spending 16 million to impose the death penalty is worth it i believe if it prevents even 1 person from ever slipping through the cracks and getting out of prison and harming someone..

also, a murderer on the outside, can still kill someone on the inside if he is in the general population.. maybe someone is in prison for tax fraud and he crosses that lifer that has nothing to live for anyway... the lifer(who should be on death row) could kill him too.

concrete numbers that you had to edit right?

Even if the numbers on race I posted were wrong, and the ones you posted are correct, you left out the included proportions to race in society.

Do you want to go back and post what those numbers are? Probably not because the initial point I made is valid isn't it?

Oh and, I'm glad YOU are deciding waht people have to live for.

[Guru of Nothing]

Even if the numbers on race I posted were wrong, and the ones you posted are correct, you left out the included proportions to race in society.


Manny. When you look at our judicial system, It's not the color of your skin that matters, it's the color of your money. If you want to fight for a more fair system, don't focus on race.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny. When you look at our judicial system, It's not the color of your skin that matters, it's the color of your money. If you want to fight for a more fair system, don't focus on race.


Well, I agree in theory with what your saying, but not entirely. There are a few reasons for this.

Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.

Yet, on death row, black people still make up 42% of the inmates. They do not make up 42% of poor people.

So there is also a disparity there.

Overall, I believe that classism comes into effect much more than active racism in today's society. But I also believe that classism is simply the evolution of racism. Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday.

The way you fix this isn't nessecarily by fixing the system, but by fixing society as a whole.

It's the same arguement I made in some threads a few months ago. And as long as minorities are being affected moreso than the anglo population of this country, I think it holds a valid point in these type of discussions.

[Guru of Nothing]

For the moment, I'll buy what you are saying Manny, but if I really dug deep, I suspect I could cast more blame on peer pressure than racism. Others might call it a viscious circle.

There is a racial element in play, but you cannot attack racism and fix this judicial plight. Actually, you can (attack, that is), but it misses the point.

[Spurminator]

Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.

Really? How poor are we talking?

[Guru of Nothing]

the reason why europeans don't like the death penalty, i believe, is because they have had to endure 2500 years of death, very indiscriminately. From vicious kings to mafioso dictators and ruthless emperors. the united states has had its ups and downs, but the country was founded on a clean slate. the crap in the past is almost to far back and to far away to matter.

That's an excellent point. You might be on to something there.

[Spurminator]

And that could also explain why racial tension exists on the issue of the death penalty. America's history is littered with racially-motivated executions, whether by mob or otherwise. Whites really haven't had to live with that kind of fear since the Salem Witch Trials.

[Useruser666]

Sure, what you said had nothing to do about race. I'm not calling you racist. I'm pointing out that your ultimate system is ultimately racist.

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

[Clandestino]

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

great point... it should be about true justice and not economics...

[Hook Dem]

For the moment, I'll buy what you are saying Manny, but if I really dug deep, I suspect I could cast more blame on peer pressure than racism. Others might call it a viscious circle.

There is a racial element in play, but you cannot attack racism and fix this judicial plight. Actually, you can (attack, that is), but it misses the point.
I think GON hits it on the head. That "peer pressure" is what needs to be addressed. Anyone remember Bill Cosby saying this? Now Manny, before you fly off the handle and keep focusing on racism, how about addressing this and see if it has merit. I say it does!

[Clandestino]

also, i believe in america just about everyone can get out of poverty if they CHOOSE to... many don't want to do the work(whether it be education, moving, whatever) it requires to get ahead.

claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people.

[Hook Dem]

"claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people." .................I agree.

[MannyIsGod]

I was not talking about any systems. Just the death penalty. Arguing that life in prison is cheaper is a poor justification. You argue that rich white people get better justice, then turn around and say life in prison is cheaper and that's a pro. Neither process should be soley based on economics.

You know for someone who got pissed at me for apparently "being full of shit somtimes", you might want to apply the same logic you use on me to yourself.

#1. I don't argue that as a whole, anglo's get a different form of justice in this country. It's a FACT. Yes, there are individuals that get the shaft and are white as well, but as a whole the race gets better treatment. Whether the cause is money or racism is up for debate, but not the fact that the race gets better treatment than minorities. The numbers are there.

#2. I didn't argue for life in prison based on economics. Someone brought up the amount of money spent on the appeals process, then Cladestino said that was BS. Yet, Cladestino then posted edited figures from a site and decided not to include figures about the cost which did not support his stance.

I don't argue against the death penalty against any amount of money. I argue based on the fact that there is no perfect system, and people use an incorrectable and irreversible method of justice.

But as the article states, people really don't care about that.

[MannyIsGod]

also, i believe in america just about everyone can get out of poverty if they CHOOSE to... many don't want to do the work(whether it be education, moving, whatever) it requires to get ahead.

claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people.

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

[Clandestino]

You know for someone who got pissed at me for apparently "being full of shit somtimes", you might want to apply the same logic you use on me to yourself.

#1. I don't argue that as a whole, anglo's get a different form of justice in this country. It's a FACT. Yes, there are individuals that get the shaft and are white as well, but as a whole the race gets better treatment. Whether the cause is money or racism is up for debate, but not the fact that the race gets better treatment than minorities. The numbers are there.

#2. I didn't argue for life in prison based on economics. Someone brought up the amount of money spent on the appeals process, then Cladestino said that was BS. Yet, Cladestino then posted edited figures from a site and decided not to include figures about the cost which did not support his stance.

I don't argue against the death penalty against any amount of money. I argue based on the fact that there is no perfect system, and people use an incorrectable and irreversible method of justice.

But as the article states, people really don't care about that.

my facts were not edited. you tried to say that blacks made up the largest percentage of death row inmates.. i provided proof that whites made up the largest %, then blacks, then hispanics...

also, until the minorities in this country stop blaming "the white man" they wil never rise themselves... internal vs external locus of control... put the initiative on yourself to better your life!

[Clandestino]

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

i have a cousin who was incredibly smart in high school.. made decent grades, but overall was just a very smart dude. he got a job out of high school for the summer..then started school.. he then started working a lot(8am-8pm mon-fri, 9-4 sat) and decided he would just work instead of school.. well, he is still there and still living at home not making shit for money. he says he knows he needs an education if he is to get ahead, but he is too lazy.

[MannyIsGod]

my facts were not edited. you tried to say that blacks made up the largest percentage of death row inmates.
Wrong, I said that blacks made up a vastly disproportional percentage of inmates on death row, and they do. You failed to post the proportions of the populations in society as a comparison.


also, until the minorities in this country stop blaming "the white man" they wil never rise themselves... internal vs external locus of control... put the initiative on yourself to better your life!

Ok, so the reason minorities are poorer overral, is because they are blaming the white man?

I defintely see how that is much more plausible than hundreds of years of racial inequality. Are you a sociologist?

[MannyIsGod]

i have a cousin who was incredibly smart in high school.. made decent grades, but overall was just a very smart dude. he got a job out of high school for the summer..then started school.. he then started working a lot(8am-8pm mon-fri, 9-4 sat) and decided he would just work instead of school.. well, he is still there and still living at home not making shit for money. he says he knows he needs an education if he is to get ahead, but he is too lazy.

And your cousin is one example. Everyone has a cousin or a friend, or a friend of a friend that has done something, and that does not make it the rule or a society wide trend.

[Clandestino]

Really??!??!?!?

I'd love to have the reason for the dispraportionate number of minorites in poverty then.

Seriously, give me a good reason.

maybe if ALL or almost all minorities lived in poverty you'd have a leg to stand on.. but since many minorities are making it out of poverty it can't be a "the white man keeping them down" thing.

[Clandestino]

And your cousin is one example. Everyone has a cousin or a friend, or a friend of a friend that has done something, and that does not make it the rule or a society wide trend.

actually, a lot of my family(the ones my age) are underachievers.... they are content with doing nothing. yes, all mexicans... but i do have the opposite side too... my grandfather who started out as a busboy and then owned his own restaurant til he died. uncle who was a truck driver and is now the owner of a trucking company..

i believe you make your own life.. not excuses!

[MannyIsGod]

maybe if ALL or almost all minorities lived in poverty you'd have a leg to stand on.. but since many minorities are making it out of poverty it can't be a "the white man keeping them down" thing.

Man, do you know how to read?

I posted this in response to GoN above:


Well, I agree in theory with what your saying, but not entirely. There are a few reasons for this.

Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.

Yet, on death row, black people still make up 42% of the inmates. They do not make up 42% of poor people.

So there is also a disparity there.

Overall, I believe that classism comes into effect much more than active racism in today's society. But I also believe that classism is simply the evolution of racism. Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday.

The way you fix this isn't nessecarily by fixing the system, but by fixing society as a whole.

It's the same arguement I made in some threads a few months ago. And as long as minorities are being affected moreso than the anglo population of this country, I think it holds a valid point in these type of discussions.


Read that again, and tell me how I am claiming the white man is holding anyone down?

[MannyIsGod]

i believe you make your own life.. not excuses!


Sigh, I guess you're right. The reason there is a dispraportionate number of blacks and hispanics in poverty is because they make excuses.

[Clandestino]

You saying, "Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday." leads me to believe that you still feel the white man is keeping minorities down.

[MannyIsGod]

BECAUSE OF RACISM YESTERDAY!

You're inability to comprehend what yesterday signifies leads me to believe I am arguing with a wall and should stop immediately

[Clandestino]

BECAUSE OF RACISM YESTERDAY!

You're inability to comprehend what yesterday signifies leads me to believe I am arguing with a wall and should stop immediately

yes, but anything that happened years and years ago should no longer be used as an excuse for their poverty today.... there are no longer colored drinking fountains, bathrooms, sections...

[Useruser666]

You know for someone who got pissed at me for apparently "being full of shit somtimes", you might want to apply the same logic you use on me to yourself.

#1. I don't argue that as a whole, anglo's get a different form of justice in this country. It's a FACT. Yes, there are individuals that get the shaft and are white as well, but as a whole the race gets better treatment. Whether the cause is money or racism is up for debate, but not the fact that the race gets better treatment than minorities. The numbers are there.

#2. I didn't argue for life in prison based on economics. Someone brought up the amount of money spent on the appeals process, then Cladestino said that was BS. Yet, Cladestino then posted edited figures from a site and decided not to include figures about the cost which did not support his stance.

I don't argue against the death penalty against any amount of money. I argue based on the fact that there is no perfect system, and people use an incorrectable and irreversible method of justice.

But as the article states, people really don't care about that.


So what did I say is BS Manny? Like I restated, I am specifficly talking about the penalty, not the justice system as a whole.

Of course the penalty is irreversible, that's the point of it. You seem to think capitol punishment is like the movie Judge Dread or something. People aren't executed on the spot. It takes a long time in some cases, and plenty of opportunity to hear appeals is given.

The argument that someone who is innocent may be put to death is a slippery slope. There have been a number of cases documented where people have served decades behind bars, only to be released later or found not guilty in retrials from new eveidence findings. So if it is wrong to put someone to death who is actually not guilty, then what is it to keep someone behind bars for 40 years? Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?

[MannyIsGod]

yes, but anything that happened years and years ago should no longer be used as an excuse for their poverty today.... there are no longer colored drinking fountains, bathrooms, sections...

Wow. Excuses huh?

An excuse? The numbers are there. Minorities make up a disproportionate number of people in poverty. This is not up for debate. There must be a reason for this. Whether you feel it's because they are lazy, stupid, family factors, racial inequality, or a combination of any factors, there are reasons.

That civil rights acts were only passed 40 years ago. And had they been able to change society immediately, there would still be residual effects that segregation had. And they were not able to change society that fast.

If you feel that the policies of racial inequality in this country do not have effects that last several generations and then some, then I'm not going to get anywhere "debating" this with you. But then I'd love to have a legitimate reason as to why minorities represent a larger percentage of people in poverty than they do in the general population.

[Clandestino]

Wow. Excuses huh?

An excuse? The numbers are there. Minorities make up a disproportionate number of people in poverty. This is not up for debate. There must be a reason for this. Whether you feel it's because they are lazy, stupid, family factors, racial inequality, or a combination of any factors, there are reasons.

That civil rights acts were only passed 40 years ago. And had they been able to change society immediately, there would still be residual effects that segregation had. And they were not able to change society that fast.

If you feel that the policies of racial inequality in this country do not have effects that last several generations and then some, then I'm not going to get anywhere "debating" this with you. But then I'd love to have a legitimate reason as to why minorities represent a larger percentage of people in poverty than they do in the general population.

no, you are correct, minorities do make up a larger % of those in poverty... however, i feel they could get out of it by taking some initiative... 40 years is a long time to make something of yourself...

[MannyIsGod]

So what did I say is BS Manny? Like I restated, I am specifficly talking about the penalty, not the justice system as a whole.
That’s the part that’s bullshit Chris. The ultimate penalty as the result of the not so ultimate system huh? They are inseparable parts of the same machine.

If you have a hot engine in car, yet the transmission sucks, the car is going to run like shit either way.



Of course the penalty is irreversible, that's the point of it. You seem to think capitol punishment is like the movie Judge Dread or something. People aren't executed on the spot. It takes a long time in some cases, and plenty of opportunity to hear appeals is given.

You mean they don't shoot people on the spot? HOLY SHIT!!! You've opened my eyes Chris. Yeah, I seem to think EXACTLY that.

No Chris, what I seem to think, and I've already tried spelling this out for you, is that the death penalty is used in a flawed system, and one innocent death is far too many. You can't have it both ways, it's either a perfect system, or it's not.


The argument that someone who is innocent may be put to death is a slippery slope.

Uh, how so? There have been a number of cases documented where people have served decades behind bars, only to be released later or found not guilty in retrials from new eveidence findings. So if it is wrong to put someone to death who is actually not guilty, then what is it to keep someone behind bars for 40 years? Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?[/QUOTE]

Yes, both are wrong, and both need to be fixed. But guess what, the guy who was behind bars for 40 years? He can be released can't he?

What’s up with the Tpark Technique of equating extreme views with the one I have?



Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?


I never said anything like that. And it's not a slippery slope to say that the risk of killing an innocent person if far worse than falsely imprisoning a person.

[MannyIsGod]

no, you are correct, minorities do make up a larger % of those in poverty... however, i feel they could get out of it by taking some initiative... 40 years is a long time to make something of yourself...

Still waiting for a reason.

Could it be, they've had a harder road due to the previous inequality?

BTW, yes, they could get out of it, and are doing so. That is not the issue here.

[Clandestino]

manny, you are living in a dream world if you think any system will ever be perfect... nothing will ever be perfect...

[Clandestino]

Still waiting for a reason.

Could it be, they've had a harder road due to the previous inequality?

one good reason is they think like you..."all the years of racism are keeping me down"...

like i said earlier, internal vs external locus of control...

[MannyIsGod]

manny, you are living in a dream world if you think any system will ever be perfect... nothing will ever be perfect...

Yet the man fails to see my arguement against the death penalty.....

[MannyIsGod]

one good reason is they think like you..."all the years of racism are keeping me down"...


Ha, who knew the answer to these difficult societal questions was something so simple.

I'd love to see some research backing up your theory.

[Useruser666]

Manny, my statement was totally in regards to the death penalty. You CAN NOT change the focus of my statement. Link everything together all you want, but it's not what I was refering to.

No one has argued that the system is perfect. I think you're taking people's backing of the death penalty as them supporting an imperfect system.

Answer these questions for me.

Am I racist because I support the death penalty?

If the system was perfect would you support the death penalty?

If one person is put to death wrongly, does that justify one person being killed by a "lifer"?

[Clandestino]

Yet the man fails to see my arguement against the death penalty.....

like i said, no system is perfect. and you can't require any system to be perfect before you implement it. if you required perfection in anything before you would allow it to be put into use we'd have absolutely nothing....

you must never go to the hospital because they make mistakes too...
don't ever take your car to a mechanic, bc he could make a mistake too...
etc...

nothing is perfect, but that shouldn't stop it...

if someone kills, death is the perfect penalty...

what do you think is more appropriate?

[Sec24Row7]

No, the reason is (for hispanics) many haven't been here long enough to build anything for themselves. Those that have been here a long time have ample opportunity to make large incomes. Though don't get me started on size of families that knock down their quality of life. Large families and lots of kids are just part of hispanic culture and in an URBAN environment tons of kids are a hindrance rather than a help to the families financial situation.

As for blacks, the opportunites for them to advance are there, and they need to take advantage of them. Many already have. I personally believe in a hand up rather than a hand out though. People that earn money are much more likely to keep it than people that have it given to them through special circumstance. The black community also needs to work on making it cool to go to college and learn in school instead of labelling black kids that do those things sellouts. Curse the term "street cred".

[CommanderMcBragg]

I personally believe in a hand up rather than a hand out though.

Sounds like you'd rather have your hand on the switch.

[Sec24Row7]

I think death is too good for some of the people that get that as punishment, true.

Am I pro death penalty? Not really. Am I opposed to it? It doesn't really matter. Would I kill someone who I found to be killing or attempting to kill one of my family or friends? Your bet your ass I would.

Would I do that 9 years later after the initial pain was gone?

Dunno.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, my statement was totally in regards to the death penalty. You CAN NOT change the focus of my statement. Link everything together all you want, but it's not what I was refering to.

No one has argued that the system is perfect. I think you're taking people's backing of the death penalty as them supporting an imperfect system.


When the death penalty becomes the result of a justice system without the chance of an error being so existant, or even so damn high, then you can seperate them. They are linked. Sure, it's great to have a healthy heart, but it doesn't matter worth a damn if your lungs don't work.


Answer these questions for me.

Am I racist because I support the death penalty?

If the system was perfect would you support the death penalty?

If one person is put to death wrongly, does that justify one person being killed by a "lifer"?

No you're not racist, and I haven't called you that. I said you supported a system that is racist. Even if you want to sit here and argue that there is no racism today, the people about to be exectuted on death row weren't tried today.

Yeah, I'm sure that poor black man got GREAT representation 20 years ago. Woo!

Sure, in a perfect system, other than personal moral qualms, I'd support the death penalty.

You lecture me on seperating things, then you go and present me with that ridiculous last question of yours? I am linking 2 thinks that coexist and are very linked. The result of a system and that very system.

Then you come and ask me if someone being put to death falsely justifies someone being killed by a lifer. That doesn't make sense, but I think you were trying to say that killing innocent people on death row is a risk you take to try and prevent people who are in and out of prison commiting murder.

So I ask YOU once again Chris, why do you go to extremes? What, there's no middle ground? There's no other way to prevent people from being killed except by killing the people you think are going to commit murder in the future? For someone saying this isn't a Judge Dred or whatever environment, your advocating of killing of people as punishment or pevention for cimes they haven't commited strikes me as odd.

Anyhow, as I've stated earlier, the amount of people on death row when compared to the regular prison population is very small. You are not making an impact on any type of behavior because of the numbers being so small. So even withthe death penalty in the system, you are not "saving" people from being killed by "lifers". You're not really making an impact on any part of the system.

What you are doing, is running the risk of killing an innocent person. And for a system that is geared torwards letting guilty people walk over putting an innocent man in jail,(you know thats the entire reason for the innocent untill proven guilty thing right? we don't convict (allegedly) people on 51% or even 99% evidence for this very reason) I find it idiotic that we run the risk of killing innocent people for no noticeable societal gain. And if you go back to the origional article and stay within the context of this thread, that is exactly why I am disgusted. Most people don't care if we keep the death penalty, regardless of any possible innocent deaths by injection.

One innocent death is FAR too many.

But I tell you what. If someone in here can provide evidence of how the death penalty provides some form of benefit to society, I'll start to believe it's something more than state sanctioned revenge.

I'm not holding my breath.

[MannyIsGod]

nothing is perfect, but that shouldn't stop it...



And that is the attitude in the origional article I find disgusting.

Sure, killing innocent people isn't a big deal!

We have our perfect ultimate penlty, and we're going to use it in our not so perfect system.

[Useruser666]

Manny, I'm going to say this one more time. I was not talking about the judicial system as a whole. All my statements refer to the DEATH PENALTY. Stop associating my words with that connection. You seem to think that because I support the penalty I support racism or the like. I know the system isn't perfect. I know it needs improvement. You take up the most obvious of arguments and beat everyone over the head with it endlessly for what reason? To prove you are right?

Your justicfications against the death penalty are valid, but also somewhat naive. You state that the death of one innocent person is too much, that is a perfectly acceptable statement. How many people have been executed that were innocent? I'd like to see the numbers. Compare that to how many innocent people have been shot dead by police on the street. Is it acceptable that a single person is killed by mistake on the street? Of course not, but the system is not perfect.

[bigzak25]

well, i'm not all that informed on the goings on in prisons, but if I was to assume that prisoners with life sentences are in general population with other prisoners that are to be released, then I could easily imagine them being VERY negative influences on the imates that are going to be walking our streets. that is an unacceptable risk.

[Spurminator]

Non-Lifers should be separated from Lifers.

[Useruser666]

In an ideal system they would be, and only guilty people would be in jail.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, I'm going to say this one more time. I was not talking about the judicial system as a whole. All my statements refer to the DEATH PENALTY. Stop associating my words with that connection. You seem to think that because I support the penalty I support racism or the like. I know the system isn't perfect. I know it needs improvement.


And I'm going to say this one more time (then you'll say that one more time, etc etc)

The death penalty is not seperate from the judicial system.

In other words, as long as we have an imperfect judicial system, then we have an imperfect death penalty.

Ok, if you say that the death penalty in theory under a perfect system is the ultimate punishment, then sure, I'll agree. But then you go on in your post and say that I am the one who takes up the most obvious arguements for no reason? I think you sat in the electric chair a bit too long if that was your conclusion Mr. the ultimate punishment in a hypothetical environment.


You take up the most obvious of arguments and beat everyone over the head with it endlessly for what reason? To prove you are right?


Hey jackass. Read the initial article. If my arguement is so fucking obvious, why is there a survey with THOSE results?

[MannyIsGod]

Your justicfications against the death penalty are valid, but also somewhat naive.


I'll let that statement stand on it's own. I think it speaks volumes about my stance. 5 bucks says the first reply Chris has to this is something along the lines of "you're taking that out of context"


You state that the death of one innocent person is too much, that is a perfectly acceptable statement. How many people have been executed that were innocent? I'd like to see the numbers.


I must admit, noo inmate on death row has ever been proven to have been executed mistakenly.

However with this in mind...

On April 8, 2002, Ray Krone was released from prison in Arizona after DNA evidence proved that he was not responsible for the 1991 murder of a Phoenix bartender. Krone became the 100th person exonerated and released from death row since 1973. Convicted twice for a brutal murder, Krone spent ten years in prison, two of them on death row. The DNA evidence that ultimately proved his innocence also implicated the real murderer

Not everyone gets DNA testing even to this day when it may make a difference....

And...

In many other cases, it was good fortune rather than the criminal justice system that established innocence. In several cases, college or law school students investigated cases and unearthed essential evidence. For example, students in an investigative journalism class at Webster University uncovered evidence of misconduct by prosecutors, who talked a witness into giving false testimony and withheld crucial trial evidence, and helped get a new trial for Louisiana death row inmate Richard Clay. If it had not been for the work of these students, an innocent person may have been put to death.

What about the cases where there isn't some good fortune of this sort?

http://www.aclu.org/DeathPenalty/DeathPenalty.cfm

Now, you may well believe that this never happens and nothing has ever slipped to the cracks, but then who is the one who is somewhat naive



Compare that to how many innocent people have been shot dead by police on the street. Is it acceptable that a single person is killed by mistake on the street? Of course not, but the system is not perfect.

Why should I compare it? Is the use of an imperfect system in one place justification for use of an imperfect system elsewhere?

[MannyIsGod]

Yet more...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/smith/eight/

[MannyIsGod]

Well fuck me, look at this...



Smith had always maintained his innocence of the murder that put him on death row. Since his alleged crime also involved a rape, it was a prime candidate for DNA testing. But the state of Florida resisted his requests for testing. Smith died from cancer while awaiting the legal skirmishes over his fate. When DNA testing was performed posthumously, it excluded Smith as the perpetrator. The prosecution offered a belated apology, but Smith was never granted the freedom that he deserved, and he died under society's worst condemnation for a crime he did not commit.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=1149#Sec02a
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=1149#en36

[Useruser666]

Again Manny, you can say that the death penalty and ham sandwiches are tied together and can't be seperated, but it means nothing. MY STATEMENTS REFERED DIRECTLY TO THE DEATH PENALTY ITSELF! You can not change that! Stop trying to make this about everything. Fuckin A! What not just say bad things are bad, and everything that is remotely linked to anything bad is bad!

By the way, the quote from that web site:


Smith had always maintained his innocence of the murder that put him on death row. Since his alleged crime also involved a rape, it was a prime candidate for DNA testing. But the state of Florida resisted his requests for testing. Smith died from cancer while awaiting the legal skirmishes over his fate. When DNA testing was performed posthumously, it excluded Smith as the perpetrator. The prosecution offered a belated apology, but Smith was never granted the freedom that he deserved, and he died under society's worst condemnation for a crime he did not commit.

So he died from cancer, not from being executed?! He could have serving life in prison and died from cancer while tryig to prove himself innocent. That's not an argument against the death penalty. You still have not shown a single case of a person that was executed and was later proven innocent. Even if you were to document such a case, that does not mean the penalty of death is unjust or too harsh of a sentence. It simply proves the fallibility of the system.



I'll let that statement stand on it's own. I think it speaks volumes about my stance. 5 bucks says the first reply Chris has to this is something along the lines of "you're taking that out of context"


You are not taking that statement, by me, out of context. I understand your reasoning and logic, I just don't agree with it. I see it as one sided if not short sighted.

I don't think the death penalty is really the issue here. When applied correctly and with due process it serves a purpose. I think improvements need to be made with the justice that wields such power.

[MannyIsGod]

I get your point on Smith, and it's a valid point. But do you dispute that it is almost certain that an innocent person has been executed at least one time?

I'm tying the 2 together because they are Chris. You and I disagree that an imperfect death penalty should not be used. Thats all.

You say:



When applied correctly and with due process it serves a purpose.


What woudl that purpose be? Can you produce figures to back up your statement?

[MannyIsGod]

Ok. We obviously disagree that a death penalty that executes innocent people is a competely useless system. But, as far as this goes:


I see it as one sided if not short sighted.


When applied correctly and with due process it serves a purpose.

And even if you are able to produce stats and figures to back that claim up, I woudl argue that that since we both acknowledge the system is not working as it should right now, there should be a moratorium on all executions untill a point that it is.

But mainly, I want to see what info you produce to back up your statement.

[Useruser666]

I get your point on Smith, and it's a valid point. But do you dispute that it is almost certain that an innocent person has been executed at least one time?

I'm tying the 2 together because they are Chris. You and disagree that an imperct death penalty should not be used. Thats all.

You say:



What woudl that purpose be? Can you produce figures to back up your statement?

I would tend to believe that a person has been wrongly executed. But I still think the death penalty is necessary. I don't think it will ever be perfect, but it never will. Manny, have seen Minority Report? If not, go see it.

I don't know how I would gather figures to support the death penalty. I would tend to believe that there is atleast a remote chance that someone who would be subject to death, has a chance of being a danger to society if they were allowed to serve a life sentence. I guess a simple way to state the argument is this way, "A convicted murderer who is dead, can no longer be a threat to society."

[MannyIsGod]

I would tend to believe that a person has been wrongly executed. But I still think the death penalty is necessary. I don't think it will ever be perfect, but it never will. Manny, have seen Minority Report? If not, go see it.

I've seen it, but it's not a great movie. However, I strongly reccomend Dead Man Walking or The Life of David Gale. Much better, much more applicable.



I don't know how I would gather figures to support the death penalty.

Google, where else? Are you saying that your opinion on this is made up with hearsay and opinion rather than facts?

There's nothing wrong with that, most of my opinions don't have hard figures to back them up, but if you're going to sit here and argue with me about it you'd think you'd at least google a few sites.


I would tend to believe that there is atleast a remote chance that someone who would be subject to death, has a chance of being a danger to society if they were allowed to serve a life sentence. I guess a simple way to state the argument is this way, "A convicted murderer who is dead, can no longer be a threat to society."

Ok, I think if you're going to jusify killing innocent people, there should be a burden of proof of showing where the benefit is.

If you believe 1% of executions are done in error (and I honestly believe it's much higher than that) then you should at least produce something showing that you have beneficial effects out of it.

[Clandestino]

in the movie the life of david gale he was not completely innocent either... good movie though...

[Useruser666]

I've seen it, but it's not a great movie. However, I strongly reccomend Dead Man Walking or The Life of David Gale. Much better, much more applicable.


Google, where else? Are you saying that your opinion on this is made up with hearsay and opinion rather than facts?

There's nothing wrong with that, most of my opinions don't have hard figures to back them up, but if you're going to sit here and argue with me about it you'd think you'd at least google a few sites.



Ok, I think if you're going to jusify killing innocent people, there should be a burden of proof of showing where the benefit is.

If you believe 1% of executions are done in error (and I honestly believe it's much higher than that) then you should at least produce something showing that you have beneficial effects out of it.

What I meant was, I don't know where I to find numbers for people in non death penalty states, who have killed again while serving life sentences. You'd have to do a lot of research or just hypothesize. Has there ever been a person who has killed once before, been released and killed again? Or even commited a lesser crime? With out stating specifics I believe I have heard of a few cases like this. It does require a lot more research to have any real argumentative value.

[Spurminator]

Released prisoners have killed again before, and this will continue to happen regardless of any changes to the Capital Punishment system. I don't think it's any more or less preventable whether the Death Penalty is policy or not.

Given that, we CAN prevent innocent people from being executed by abolishing Capital Punishment. Some innocent people will still be incarcerated, even for life, but they will still have life.

[bigzak25]

one murder by a released or escaped convict is one too many...one murder or rape by someone influenced by a man that would otherwise have been on death row is one too many...

the only time i was against the death penalty was when John Coffey walked the green mile....but today, DNA evidence would have saved his ass too....

would you suggest retrial for any and all inmates on death row where there is not conclusive, unrefutable dna evidence?

of course, dna proof is not perfect either....quite the dilemma.

[Useruser666]

So it makes no difference either way? Just that a VERY FEW number of people will get to spend the rest of their lives in prison rather than being executed.

[Spurminator]

It only makes a difference, I think, if you're counting Innocent People Executed. With the Death Penalty abolished, that number will always be zero. I'll take zero over one or two any day.

[Useruser666]

It only makes a difference, I think, if you're counting Innocent People Executed. With the Death Penalty abolished, that number will always be zero. I'll take zero over one or two any day.

But will you take zero and one or two people killed by those would be lifers?

[Spurminator]

I wouldn't think it would make a difference as far as Lifers go. Anyone who would have gotten the Death Penalty would get Life with No Parole, so they're stuck behind bars anyway.

[bigzak25]

the texas 7 was stuck behind bars too, until they weren't.....killed a police officer on christmas eve.

[Spurminator]

Capital Punishment isn't going to prevent prison breaks.

[bigzak25]

Capital Punishment isn't going to prevent prison breaks.


sure it would. dead people don't escape.

seriously though, arent death row inmates much more limited in their access and such....i need to see who was the last death row inmate to escape.....

[Spurminator]

Well, aside from the instance you pointed out, I don't recall many Lifers escaping either... Can you say for sure that the Texas 7 wouldn't have escaped if they were on Death Row? They certainly wouldn't have been executed yet.

I'm all for increased security at prisons, for all sentences. Death Row security is very tight, but I don't think it would suddenly become more relaxed if there were no longer any death sentences.

[Useruser666]

Well, aside from the instance you pointed out, I don't recall many Lifers escaping either... Can you say for sure that the Texas 7 wouldn't have escaped if they were on Death Row? They certainly wouldn't have been executed yet.

I'm all for increased security at prisons, for all sentences. Death Row security is very tight, but I don't think it would suddenly become more relaxed if there were no longer any death sentences.

There would be more ex-death row inmates to keep track of.

[Spurminator]

I doubt it... Considering how few are actually executed each year, it's probably pretty proportional to the number who would die of natural causes during a life sentence.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm going to step out of this untill the propoents of the capital punishment actually bring some facts to the table.

We can sit here and bang around opinions all day long and not get anywhere. Actually, we can sit here and blast away facts all day to and not get anywhere, but at least views hold more credence.

[Useruser666]

I'm going to step out of this untill the propoents of the capital punishment actually bring some facts to the table.

We can sit here and bang around opinions all day long and not get anywhere. Actually, we can sit here and blast away facts all day to and not get anywhere, but at least views hold more credence.

What facts have you brought Manny? Just that one person died while on death row? I have not made my case on statistics, just my own opinions. The stats that I would like to present are not as readily available.

[MannyIsGod]

Please, those links I provided have more than enough information on the death penalty. If you like, I can provide much more information.

I think the stats you would like are non existant for the reason that there has never been a study that has found benefits of the death penalty.

I'll do some searching for you, and see what I can find. It's the damn internet, I'm sure I can find something.

[MannyIsGod]

Here are quite a few Pro deterence studies. I'm reading them now, interesting stuff.

http://www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm

Read a few, or skim through a few, or do whatever. Then read the one by Berk @ UCLA

[Guru of Nothing]

I've already presented my solution to the problem - nobody dies, everyone is free, and we are all happy

Manny, please pick one inmate on death row who should not be killed and let's debate the merits of that case. I don't expect you to have intimate knowledge of every death row case, but surely there's a web site out there which does.

Let's flex some righteous muscle.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't have intimate knowledge of any really, but I'll find some and read up on some, and I'll post a few on here tomorrow for varieties sake. We can pick one or more even and debate them.

[Louae]

also, i believe in america just about everyone can get out of poverty if they CHOOSE to... many don't want to do the work(whether it be education, moving, whatever) it requires to get ahead.

claiming minorities are poor today because of yesterday's racism is a cop out for all the poor people.

Truer words were never spoken....

[xrayzebra]

Well fuck me, look at this...



http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=1149#Sec02a
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=1149#en36


Who would want to. I have always wondered, looking at the picture you
post, is that your age, or number of legal parents or is that just how high you can count? If you had a brain you would take it out and play with it. Hell, the US of A never did anything right anyhow in your small opinion. So why don't you just give up, form your own government and go play with whatever you can get your hands on.

[GoldToe]

Truer words were never spoken....

Also easier said than done for some folk and usually said by someone who hasn't been there.

[Clandestino]

Also easier said than done for some folk and usually said by someone who hasn't been there.

i started life in a trailer house in the country...raised by a single mother, one of 3 children... by 22 i was pulling in over six figures working overseas... so, i've been there bro...

[MannyIsGod]

I was too busy today to find a case, so I'll try tomorrow.

[Louae]

Also easier said than done for some folk and usually said by someone who hasn't been there.

:rolleyes please.

I don't fall into that category.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, I can't find information about ongoing cases, probably becasue the attorneys pursuing the cases don't release the info untill it's over.

The only thing I can do, is provide some on situations where someone may have been executed while innocent, provide more info on exonorations, and provide info on actual innocence.

So that's what I'll do.

[MannyIsGod]

This case strikes me, largely because of his location.


David Spence Texas Conviction 1984 Executed 1997
Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.

[MannyIsGod]

He claimed innocence untill the end


Yes, I do. First of all, I want you to understand I speak the truth when I say I didn’t kill your kids. Honestly I have not killed anyone. I wish you could get the rage from your hearts and you could see the truth and get rid of the hatred.

I love you all – (names of children) – Corey, Steve (garbled) – This is very important. I love ya’ll and I miss ya’ll. O.K., now I’m finished.

[MannyIsGod]

Poor people haveit made with this type of representation.


Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ExonsByRegion.gif

I think most people would acknowledge that the South is the most racist or at least was the most racist part of this country.

This isn't direct proof of a corolation between racism and convictions, but I think it is a safe assumption that many of those wrongful convictions were do to prosecution with racist undertones.

[MannyIsGod]

In Florida, Innocence Doesn’t Exist

Florida has had more exonerations than any other state. As a token response to this development, a state commission examined some of these cases and came to the correct conclusion that the justice system does not prove innocence: "Of these 23 cases, none were found 'innocent,' even when acquitted, because no such verdict exists. A defendant is found guilty or not guilty, never innocent." [44]

However, the commission then went on to the shocking conclusion that none of the Florida former inmates were innocent and that for almost all of them their guilt should not be doubted: "The guilt of only four defendants, however, was ever truly doubted," their report concluded. [45] This was said despite the fact that 8 of the 23 had all charges dropped by the prosecution, 10 were acquitted at re-trial, and 2 were pardoned. This represents a clear departure from our country’s long-standing commitment to the principle of being innocent until proven guilty.

One of the commissioners ironically claimed (while he himself was campaigning for Florida Attorney General) that the innocence list was politically motivated. Moreover, he came to an even more sweeping conclusion, unsubstantiated by the report, regarding all of those on Florida’s current death row: "Number one, the system is not broken,” he said. “Number two, there are no innocent people on death row. And Number three, the people who use these 23 cases as a reason to call for a moratorium are making a political statement." [46] There had been no commission review of the cases of people currently on death row. This kind of unfounded extrapolation blinds the state to the true extent of the problems in its midst.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure, if I lived in Florida I'd have pride in this system also.

105. Rudolph Holton Florida Convicted 1987 Charges Dismissed 2003


Rudolph Holton
(Photo: Florida Support)
Florida death row inmate Rudolph Holton was released on January 24, 2003, after prosecutors dropped all charges against him. (Miami Herald, January 25, 2003). Holton's convictions for a 1986 rape and murder were overturned in 2001 when a Florida Circuit Court held that the state withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense that pointed to another perpetrator. The court also found that new DNA tests contradicted the trial testimony of a state's witness. At trial, a prosecution witness testified that DNA hairs found in the victim's mouth linked Holton to the crime. However, more recent DNA tests conclusively excluded Holton as the contributor of the hair, and found that the hairs most likely belonged to the victim. (Florida v. Holton, No. 86-08931 (Fla. Cir. Ct. Sept. 2001) (order granting, in part, motion to vacate judgment)).
In December 2002, the Florida Supreme Court upheld the lower court's decision to reverse Holton's conviction and sentence. (Florida v. Holton, No. SC01-2671, 2002 Fla. LEXIS 2687 slip op. at 1 (Fla. December 18, 2002)). Prosecutors announced in January 2003 that the state was dropping all charges against Holton, who had spent 16 years on death row. (Miami Herald, January 25, 2003).


97. Juan Roberto Melendez Florida Conviction 1984 Charges Dismissed 2002
Juan Roberto Melendez spent nearly 18 years on Florida's death row before being exonerated of the crime for which he was sentenced to death. Melendez, who was born in Brooklyn, New York and raised in Puerto Rico, was sentenced to die in 1984 for the murder of Delbert Baker.
In December 2001, Florida Circuit Court Judge Barbara Fleischer overturned Melendez's capital murder conviction after determining that prosecutors in his original trial withheld critical evidence, thereby undermining confidence in the original verdict. The judge noted that no physical evidence linked Melendez to the crime. The state had used the testimony of two witnesses whose credibility was later challenged with new evidence. (Associated Press, 12/5/01) Following the reversal of the conviction, prosecutors announced the state's decision to abandon charges against Melendez. (Associated Press, 1/3/02)


88. Frank Lee Smith Florida Convicted 1985 Charges Dismissed 2000
Frank Lee Smith, who had been convicted of a 1985 rape and murder of an 8-year-old girl, and who died of cancer in January 2000 while still on death row, was cleared of these charges by DNA testing, according to an aide to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. After the trial, the chief eyewitness recanted her testimony. Nevertheless, Smith was scheduled for execution in 1990, but received a stay. Prosecutor Carolyn McCann was told by the FBI lab which conducted the DNA tests that: "He has been excluded. He didn't do it." Another man, who is currently in a psychiatric facility, is now the main suspect. (Washington Post, 12/15/00 (AP) and St. Petersburg Times (Florida) 12/15/00).


85. Joseph Nahume Green Florida Convicted 1993 Charges Dismissed 2000
Joseph Nahume Green was acquitted on March 16, 2000 of the murder of Judith Miscally. Circuit Judge Robert P. Cates entered a not guilty verdict for Green, citing the lack of any witnesses or evidence tying Green to the murder. Green, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted largely upon the testimony of the stateÍs only eye witness, Lonnie Thompson. In 1996, GreenÍs conviction was overturned by the Florida Supreme Court, which held that ThompsonÍs testimony was often inconsistent and contradictory, and that he not been fit to testify during Green's trial (Nahume Green v. Florida, 688 So. 2d 301 (1996) and St. Petersburg Times (Florida), 3/17/00).


54. Andrew Golden Florida Conviction 1991 Charges Dismissed 1994
Golden, a high school teacher in Florida, was convicted of murdering his wife. His conviction was overturned by the Florida Supreme Court in 1993. The Court held that the state had failed to prove that the victim's death was anything but an accident. Golden was released into the waiting arms of his sons on January 6, 1994. (Golden v. State, 629 So.2d 109 (Fla. 1993)).

[Clandestino]

Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.

with all the appeals and no one ever caught this? not even dumbass probably guilty gary graham... so much for your aclu buddies doing their job... maybe if they would stop trying to help terrorists and other obviously guilty people they could spend more time on cases like this..

[Clandestino]

okay, manny, we get it... you think life is prison is better.. who cares about prison overcrowding?

[MannyIsGod]

with all the appeals and no one ever caught this? not even dumbass probably guilty gary graham... so much for your aclu buddies doing their job... maybe if they would stop trying to help terrorists and other obviously guilty people they could spend more time on cases like this..

What the fuck?

So now you're expecting the ACLU to fix our criminal justice system? Nevermind that you obviously have no grasp on who the ACLU fights for (oh you'd be suprised in many cases I'm sure), It's not their job!

Ha, there's always another excuse. Well, if they had done this, and if they had done that.

It fucking figures man.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, on the above, I'm sure it WAS brought up in the appeals process. That doesn't always get you new trials.

[Clandestino]

What the fuck?

So now you're expecting the ACLU to fix our criminal justice system? Nevermind that you obviously have no grasp on who the ACLU fights for (oh you'd be suprised in many cases I'm sure), It's not their job!

Ha, there's always another excuse. Well, if they had done this, and if they had done that.

It fucking figures man.

well, the aclu is fighting for the rights of terrorists...i think they have their priorities pretty fucked up.. just like you

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not going to get into what the ACLU does in this thread unless is specificaly pertains to the death penalty. You want to argue what the ACLU does and why they do it, start a new thread.