Are the Spurs Undersized?

[pad300]

You know, there is something that is really starting to bug me about this team- we always seem to be getting smaller. Right now TD is the only guy on the roster who's "big" for his position (and then only if you consider him a PF - as a C he's typical). Everywhere else, we seem to be undersized.
(height's and weight's from NBA.com)
Guys in BOLD are oversized for the position
Guys in Italics are not undersized for the position
Guaranteed contracts only
C (6'11+, 250+) - Oberto (6'10, 245), KT (6'9", 235)
PF (6'10+, 240+)- TD (6'11, 260),Bonner (6'10, 240), Mahinmi (6'11, 230 -tall enough, too light)
SF (6'7+, 215+)- Bruce (6'7, 200), Udoka (6'5, 220), Finley (6'7, 225 - plays smaller)
SG (6'6+, 200+) - Manu (6'6, 205), Mason (6'5, 212)
PG (6'0+, 180+) - Parker (6'2, 180), Vaughn (6'1, 190), Hill (6'2,180), Stoudamire (6'1, 175)

It's particularly obvious at C and Wing... TD is big enough for a traditional C, no one else is. Finley, Bruce and Udoka are all fine size for SG's, but are undersized as SF's.
Questions
1) Do you think this size discrepancy will hurt us for this season?
I say yes, we have problems playing D against bigger wings in particular. Also, the lack of size up front sometimes forces Tim into matches where he has to work very hard, rather than being able to be help defender and be able to rest a bit while providing most of the big man offence...
2) Is this small ball deliberate on the part of the FO
Yes, they have repeatedly replaced bigger players with smaller players for several years (size only : Barry > Mason, Rasho > Nazr > Elson > Ian, ...). I'm not sure that this is a correct strategy, but the FO appears to be making an effort to get smaller (and maybe faster) in response to the rule changes. I think this strategy is mistaken - they should have moved towards more athleticism while retaining size...We currently get mildly punished against teams with multiple "big" big men, and more soundly punished against big wing players.
3) Does this improve the odds of the bigger players brought into camp sticking? (eg. Watkins (6'11, 258) vs Tolliver (6'8, 240) or Green (6'7, 212) vs Hairston (6'6, 220) vs Farmer (6'5, 220))
I am unsure; my answer to question 2) suggest no...But it is my opinion that we really should look to get a bit more beef on the roster.

[m33p0]

spurs need youth more rather than size. TD is still a rebounding machine. oberto compliments him well in doing that job. manu is amongst the best rebounding guards in the league. and after bruce, there is udoka who is quite strong. spurs gang rebound to limit any size disadvantage they may have.

[JamStone]

Yeah, I figure age and average athleticism is more of a concern than size for the Spurs.

[Tully365]

They've gotten a little smaller for sure, which could be a concern when facing big teams like the Trailblazers and Lakers, though the Oberto/Thomas/Mahinmi trio with its 18 fouls should be resilient enough to compensate .... though I hope the big 2010 plan nets the Spurs a long & tall Bosh/Dirk type... in the meantime, another title is possible playing a little smaller while Duncan never ever (wink wink) plays center.

[mathbzh]

I don't think Spurs are really undersized. Tim is big enough for PF and C to allow us to match with most teams. Mahinmi just needs 10 more pounds and he will have good size for a PF. Oberto is big enough. KT is undersized but one of the best low post defender and can deal with bigger players. Of course, a legitimate 7ft could be a nice addition, but should not be necessary.

My only real concern is the SF position but I am not sure there are so many teams that can exploit this weakness. We had no answer for Diaw in these PO but, despite being very inconsistent, he is a great mismatch player.

[Allanon]

The Spurs are definitely under-sized and that does lead to problems especially in offensive rebounding by the opposing team.

Most notably:
1) Remember in the Playoffs last year, Diaw was crushing Finley and Udoka? Same problem this year with a Shaq, Amare, Diaw, Bell & Nash/Barbosa lineup.
2) Against the Lakers, Bowen covers Kobe so that leaves 6'5 Ime, Manu, Finley, etc on 6'10 Odom. Duncan on 7' Pau and Oberto on 7'1 Bynum
3) Against the Blazers, Bowen will cover Roy, so that leaves Travis Outlaw at 6'9" and very athletic covered by a little one
4) Against the Hornets, only CP3 is small, Posey, Peja, West and Chandler are all 6'8 plus
5) Rockets are huge as well Yao, Scola, Artest, TMac...only Alston is small

With the lack of size on the Spurs, the only counter to the size would be to play small ball.

[anakha]

The Spurs are definitely under-sized and that does lead to problems especially in offensive rebounding by the opposing team.

Most notably:
1) Remember in the Playoffs last year, Diaw was crushing Finley and Udoka? Same problem this year with a Shaq, Amare, Diaw, Bell & Nash/Barbosa lineup.
2) Against the Lakers, Bowen covers Kobe so that leaves 6'5 Ime, Manu, Finley, etc on 6'10 Odom. Duncan on 7' Pau and Oberto on 7'1 Bynum
3) Against the Blazers, Bowen will cover Roy, so that leaves Travis Outlaw at 6'9" and very athletic covered by a little one
4) Against the Hornets, only CP3 is small, Posey, Peja, West and Chandler are all 6'8 plus
5) Rockets are huge as well Yao, Scola, Artest, TMac...only Alston is small

With the lack of size on the Spurs, the only counter to the size would be to play small ball.

Given your scenarios, size at the wings would be the issue and not size inside.

Hence the Spurs' never-ending search for the elusive 'long three'. :p:

[mathbzh]

I agree with that, with a long SF we would be just big enough... without we are undersized.

[Obstructed_View]

The last time the Spurs had two seven foot centers under 350 pounds the coach sat them on the bench in the playoffs while he ran Finley out there as his power forward.

[mountainballer]

IMO you can't look at size and ignore matchup issues about athleticism, mobility etc.
if Tim plays Center and either Fab or KT the PF, this front line does have enough size, but almost every PF in the league, who is able to put the ball on the floor, will beat our PFs.
and with Fab or KT playing center, we are undersized.
I also agree about the hole at SF and the need for a SF, who is big enough to guard the tweener forwards. (that's why I was hoping so much that the Spurs will sign James Jones).
this issue will hurt the Spurs a lot this season, almost every team has one or two players, who will cause match up problems in this area for the Spurs and even the most clueless coaches in the league will know this formula.

[Allanon]

IMO you can't look at size and ignore matchup issues about athleticism, mobility etc.
if Tim plays Center and either Fab or KT the PF, this front line does have enough size, but almost every PF in the league, who is able to put the ball on the floor, will beat our PFs.
and with Fab or KT playing center, we are undersized.
I also agree about the hole at SF and the need for a SF, who is big enough to guard the tweener forwards. (that's why I was hoping so much that the Spurs will sign James Jones).
this issue will hurt the Spurs a lot this season, almost every team has one or two players, who will cause match up problems in this area for the Spurs and even the most clueless coaches in the league will know this formula.

That's some good stuff. James Jones .... or even Gist.

In the past, the Spurs got away with it because they had excellent help defense (and they had a large team too). But now, as they've gotten older, they've also gotten smaller. It's much harder for Duncan/Bowen to help and then recover back to his man. And we're not talking about smaller to get quicker, they got smaller and slower (Vaughn, Stouds, Finley, Ime, KT).

I can pretend like I know more than the Spurs FO, but I have to admit, I am totally clueless on the Spurs strategy behind this.

[mountainballer]

That's some good stuff. James Jones .... or even Gist.

In the past, the Spurs got away with it because they had excellent help defense (and they had a large team too). But now, as they've gotten older, they've also gotten smaller. It's much harder for Duncan/Bowen to help and then recover back to his man. And we're not talking about smaller to get quicker, they got smaller and slower (Vaughn, Stouds, Finley, Ime, KT).

I can pretend like I know more than the Spurs FO, but I have to admit, I am totally clueless on the Spurs strategy behind this.

don't forget that the Spurs tried to sign Najera, but they were clearly outbid by the Nets. at least they tried to get a player, who somehow meets the need for some size.
sure, Gist seemed to be the right type of player for that role, but also at least 2 seasons away.
I wonder why the Spurs didn't even try to bring such a player to camp. Stoudamire, Farmer, Green, Tolliver, Watkins fill kinds of possible roles, except this very one. none is a long SF or tweener SF/PF. (also not Green)
not that I think there is a good chance to find a rotation player in this pool of leftovers and camp fodders, but still it's good to try. Raptors found such a player last year in Moon.

[mrspurs]

spurs need youth more rather than size. TD is still a rebounding machine. oberto compliments him well in doing that job. manu is amongst the best rebounding guards in the league. and after bruce, there is udoka who is quite strong. spurs gang rebound to limit any size disadvantage they may have.

Wrong like the thread says. We are to short and now to slow. And Fab would better fit our silver stars. He surely doesnt belong on our team. Because of Fab we won a championship because he didnt choke. And because of Fab we lost a run at a championship because he choked. We got out rebounded almost every game. We got outscored in the paint more then ever before. The thread is correct.:wow

[mrspurs]

That's some good stuff. James Jones .... or even Gist.

In the past, the Spurs got away with it because they had excellent help defense (and they had a large team too). But now, as they've gotten older, they've also gotten smaller. It's much harder for Duncan/Bowen to help and then recover back to his man. And we're not talking about smaller to get quicker, they got smaller and slower (Vaughn, Stouds, Finley, Ime, KT).

I can pretend like I know more than the Spurs FO, but I have to admit, I am totally clueless on the Spurs strategy behind this.

right on the money........and like yourself i dont like it either.

[mrspurs]

The Spurs are definitely under-sized and that does lead to problems especially in offensive rebounding by the opposing team.

Most notably:
1) Remember in the Playoffs last year, Diaw was crushing Finley and Udoka? Same problem this year with a Shaq, Amare, Diaw, Bell & Nash/Barbosa lineup.
2) Against the Lakers, Bowen covers Kobe so that leaves 6'5 Ime, Manu, Finley, etc on 6'10 Odom. Duncan on 7' Pau and Oberto on 7'1 Bynum
3) Against the Blazers, Bowen will cover Roy, so that leaves Travis Outlaw at 6'9" and very athletic covered by a little one
4) Against the Hornets, only CP3 is small, Posey, Peja, West and Chandler are all 6'8 plus
5) Rockets are huge as well Yao, Scola, Artest, TMac...only Alston is small

With the lack of size on the Spurs, the only counter to the size would be to play small ball.

or play hack their worst free throw shooter in order to slow the game down. sure sign our days are limited. and it doesnt make me happy. the FO has become clueless or cheap.

[Solid D]

The Spurs are sort of an average team, size-wise but the Spurs have won with average or smaller than average teams before. In 2004-05, the Spurs won the NBA championship with a team that had an average height of 6'6.7" (ranking of 26 out of 30 teams). Their success was based more on good team defense, the competitiveness and the execution of its players, particularly their 3 star players and one older role player.

Of course, height is not always a good indication of size on the court. A player's length and strength of their base are also factors to consider.

I would like to see the Spurs add an interior shot-blocker and post defender. It would appear Phoenix added a nice one with Robin Lopez, Portland has added Greg Oden. Those teams should be better defensively because of the interior "inhibitors". Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Spurs will have much of that in their arsenal beyond Tim and they will need to win by other means.

[mountainballer]

In 2004-05, the Spurs won the NBA championship with a team that had an average height of 6'6.7" (ranking of 26 out of 30 teams). Their success was based more on good team defense, the competitiveness and the execution of its players, particularly their 3 star players and one older role player.


the 05 champ team did have good size when we consider the rotation that played in the POs and also the minutes played by what players.
the average size of the whole roster doesn't tell much when irrelevant players like Mike Wilks at 5'10'' push down this number.
the big rotation of Tim, Rob and Nazr (who btw. is listed at 6'10'', but should in fact be listed 6'11'', considering he measured 6'10'' without shoes) did display better size than Tim, Fab, KT.
and 05 the 4th man in the big rotation was a true 7' / 260lbs player (Rasho), all players we currently have to take this 4th spot are much smaller and/or lighter.
the back court is almost the same, so there isn't much of a size issue compared to 2005, but the front court in fact is much smaller.

[tlongII]

Isn't Darrell Arthur basically a "long 3?"

[Allanon]

The Spurs are sort of an average team, size-wise but the Spurs have won with average or smaller than average teams before. In 2004-05, the Spurs won the NBA championship with a team that had an average height of 6'6.7" (ranking of 26 out of 30 teams). Their success was based more on good team defense, the competitiveness and the execution of its players, particularly their 3 star players and one older role player.
The Spurs before were alot younger. Duncan is still very good but he's definitely lost a step. More worrisome is Bowen who is 37, has lost a step (it cost the Spurs the game in the WCF when Kobe blew by him in the closing minutes of one of the tight games). The team defense is not nearly as good as it used to be so the individual matchups will prove crucial.



It would appear Phoenix added a nice one with Robin Lopez, Portland has added Greg Oden. Those teams should be better defensively because of the interior "inhibitors". Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Spurs will have much of that in their arsenal beyond Tim and they will need to win by other means.

I forgot about the 7' Brook Lopez too. Every elite team in the West added another big player except for the Spurs:

1) Suns: Brook Lopez 7', Dragic 6'4 guard
2) Lakers: Bynum 7', Ariza 6'8, Sun Yue 6'9
3) Blazers: 7' Oden, Rudy Fernandez 6'6
4) Rockets: 6'7 Artest shooting guard/tweener
5) Hornets: 6'8 Posey
6) Jazz: 7'1 Kosta Koufos, 7'2 Ante Tomic (possilble rooks for the Jazz but they're huge)
7) Grizzlies: 7'1 Marc Gasol, 7'2 Hammadi, 6'9 Darrel Arthur small forward, 6'4 Mayo

Grizz aren't elite but don't sleep on the Grizzlies this year, Mayo is an undersized SG, but he's likely to do point time and then he'd be a big point guard.

The West got some huge teams over this summer....bigger is bettah seems to be the motto this year.


Isn't Darrell Arthur basically a "long 3?"
Yes he is the perfect long 3 and he's ready to contribute this season...he was probably the best small forward of the 2008 draft.

For some reason, the Spurs skipped on him and chose Hill instead...I'm guessing due to personality. But I think the Grizz got a hell of a deal...Arthur was supposed to be a top 10 pick before he dropped on draft night due to some rumors.

[AC#21_TD ERA]

We are to short and now to slow. And Fab would better fit our silver stars. He surely doesnt belong on our team. Because of Fab we won a championship because he didnt choke. And because of Fab we lost a run at a championship because he choked. We got out rebounded almost every game. We got outscored in the paint more then ever before. The thread is correct.:wow

Agree. Also opposition teams have figured out Fab on how he gets those cheap buckets from Duncan around the basket. You hardly see him getting those cheap lay up's anymore and if he's not scoring his basically useless because he doesn't block shots, he can take a charge ill give him that, and he struggles big time on the boards. He's not an itimidating physical center. Bottom line he's a bench player that's too inconsistent.

I just hope Kurt Thomas starts at least we'll be better on the boards, altering and blocking shots.

[We born to be bad]

And Fab would better fit our silver stars. He surely doesnt belong on our team. Because of Fab we won a championship because he didnt choke. And because of Fab we lost a run at a championship because he choked.

What an idiot!
You lost the Conference with Lakers because you never find a good backup for Manu when his ankle was injured.

[Solid D]

the 05 champ team did have good size when we consider the rotation that played in the POs and also the minutes played by what players.
the average size of the whole roster doesn't tell much when irrelevant players like Mike Wilks at 5'10'' push down this number.
the big rotation of Tim, Rob and Nazr (who btw. is listed at 6'10'', but should in fact be listed 6'11'', considering he measured 6'10'' without shoes) did display better size than Tim, Fab, KT.
and 05 the 4th man in the big rotation was a true 7' / 260lbs player (Rasho), all players we currently have to take this 4th spot are much smaller and/or lighter.
the back court is almost the same, so there isn't much of a size issue compared to 2005, but the front court in fact is much smaller.

The original poster listed the roster and not the playoff roster, thus the facts regarding the overall team size (lower than average).

The Suns had excellent size last year but they didn't execute or play as well as the Spurs in the playoffs. It's not all about size. Small ball and execution won-out, in Rounds 1 and 2 last year.

I didn't think the Spurs would win it all last year because their level of team defense was not as good as in years past. They had a similar defense in 2006-07 but they shot well enough to overcome allowing .440 shooting. Other than G-Hill, it looks like Pop and RC have added players with more scoring ability than defensive prowess.

[SenorSpur]

I don't think Spurs are really undersized. Tim is big enough for PF and C to allow us to match with most teams. Mahinmi just needs 10 more pounds and he will have good size for a PF. Oberto is big enough. KT is undersized but one of the best low post defender and can deal with bigger players. Of course, a legitimate 7ft could be a nice addition, but should not be necessary.

My only real concern is the SF position but I am not sure there are so many teams that can exploit this weakness. We had no answer for Diaw in these PO but, despite being very inconsistent, he is a great mismatch player.

I don't think the Spurs are undersized, per se. They are, however, deficient is some areas. As always, it really depends on matchups.

At the start of the offseason, I was admitedly concerned about the lack of another rebounding, shot-blocking, post presence in the frontcourt. KT and Oberto are good complimentary, frontcourt players. However, they each have liabilities that limit their overall effectiveness and render themselves easily exploited. Oberto is too slow to defend quicker bigs, doesn't rebound or block shots well. He's also an offensive liability. On the other hand, KT rebounds well and can provide scoring from 15ft in. Yet like Oberto, is slow, has no lift, and cannot defend the rim.

If Ian rounds into a consistent, off-the-bench contributor quickly and if Watkins makes the team and can provide some occasional minutes as a paint presence, this would be a significant upgrade to frontcourt depth. I see Tolliver as a potentially adequate, possible Horry replacement. Even though he doesn't have Horry's basketball IQ.

On the other side, the Spurs more obvious liability has been the perimeter. As we saw during the playoffs, they routinely got outquicked, outrebounded and outhustled by younger, hungrier, more athletic perimeter players. That's why I do like the movement toward youth at some positions.

However, the unfinished business is the small forward position. The Spurs are into Year 3 of the "supposed" search for the long-awaited "swingman of the future", yet have failed miserably in their search. Sure they've taken a flier on some possibles apprentices (James White, DeMarr, Marcus Williams, and now Malik Hairston), but either none of them have the required skill set or the Spurs simply do not see enough there to invest time and resources in developing them.

If the Spurs are to fill this void, they're going to have to develop this player from within. Therefore, it's really troubling that they don't even have one in the pipeline. After all, Bruce isn't getting any younger and the Spurs don't even have a possible replacement in the D-league! IMO, the lack of quality skill and depth at the SF position is still THE most glaring weakness on this team.

[mathbzh]

The problem is that it takes time to develop a player from witin and nobody knows when Duncan will start declining or retire. The Batum plan, if he ever existed, was maybe a good answer to this long 3 problem, but Batum would probably have needed 2 or 3 years before being ready for the playoff intensity. The same goes for Ian, who will probably be quite useless in the next few years even if some day he may be a nice player.

[SenorSpur]

The problem is that it takes time to develop a player from witin and nobody knows when Duncan will start declining or retire. The Batum plan, if he ever existed, was maybe a good answer to this long 3 problem, but Batum would probably have needed 2 or 3 years before being ready for the playoff intensity. The same goes for Ian, who will probably be quiet useless in the next few years even if some day he may be a nice player.

WE may never know whether the Spurs really wanted Batum or not, but he certainly would've been a welcomed addition - even if he was 2-3 years away. He would've been better than what the Spurs have in the cupboard right now - nothing.

[Dramon]

Tiago Splitter sure would be nice..

[SenorSpur]

Tiago Splitter sure would be nice..

You mean "Tiago Splitter sure would've been nice"

[mrspurs]

I don't think the Spurs are undersized, per se. They are, however, deficient is some areas. As always, it really depends on matchups.

At the start of the offseason, I was admitedly concerned about the lack of another rebounding, shot-blocking, post presence in the frontcourt. KT and Oberto are good complimentary, frontcourt players. However, they each have liabilities that limit their overall effectiveness and render themselves easily exploited. Oberto is too slow to defend quicker bigs, doesn't rebound or block shots well. He's also an offensive liability. On the other hand, KT rebounds well and can provide scoring from 15ft in. Yet like Oberto, is slow, has no lift, and cannot defend the rim.

If Ian rounds into a consistent, off-the-bench contributor quickly and if Watkins makes the team and can provide some occasional minutes as a paint presence, this would be a significant upgrade to frontcourt depth. I see Tolliver as a potentially adequate, possible Horry replacement. Even though he doesn't have Horry's basketball IQ.

On the other side, the Spurs more obvious liability has been the perimeter. As we saw during the playoffs, they routinely got outquicked, outrebounded and outhustled by younger, hungrier, more athletic perimeter players. That's why I do like the movement toward youth at some positions.

However, the unfinished business is the small forward position. The Spurs are into Year 3 of the "supposed" search for the long-awaited "swingman of the future", yet have failed miserably in their search. Sure they've taken a flier on some possibles apprentices (James White, DeMarr, Marcus Williams, and now Malik Hairston), but either none of them have the required skill set or the Spurs simply do not see enough there to invest time and resources in developing them.

If the Spurs are to fill this void, they're going to have to develop this player from within. Therefore, it's really troubling that they don't even have one in the pipeline. After all, Bruce isn't getting any younger and the Spurs don't even have a possible replacement in the D-league! IMO, the lack of quality skill and depth at the SF position is still THE most glaring weakness on this team.

Very well said. Couldnt have said it better myself. It isnt fun either sometimes being right. Show me some light and I will smile. Show me nothing and I get frustrated.

[tav1]

There is a report that Milwaukee and Damon Jones are at an end. Jones is a mediocre player, but this could be a good situation for the Spurs if things break right.

Jones' three attributes are his three point shooting, ability to advance the ball and entry passes. He's paid too much for that, but still.

If Stoudamire persist in injury or doesn't impress...

If Hill is an Austin designee...

If Bonner fails or Tolliver impresses...

Milwaukee might bite on a Vaughn and Bonner for Jones package. Might.

It's very difficult to see many teams having interest in that package of Spurs players, but given the situation in Milwaukee, I can see it.

This could also save the Spurs a little money off of next year's book too.

Pop seems bent on more offense at point, and Jones could provide shooting/spacing and the ability to let Parker play off the ball. He could also get the ball to Duncan.

[Drippin' Fan]

I thought that we proved ourselves well against the Suns bigs, Shaq and Amare. As far as Diaw taking advantage of Finley, I believe that Pop intentionally out coached 'Antoni into running their plays through Diaw, to the detriment of the Suns offense.