Bulletin Board material...

[ElNono]

LINK (http://www.kornheiserscartel.com/2008/09/10035.html)

Monday, September 29, 2008
The San Antonio Spurs: Bucked Off the Top of the West For Good

Built around a powerful, boring All-NBA and All-Defensive first team power forward, a quick, experienced, clutch point guard, a defensive stopper on the wing, a slew of veteran role players who ben der dun dat, and a curmudgeonly, cranky no-nonsense, never smiles old coach, they defined grind-it-out, boring success for a decade to the chagrin of beautiful basketball fiends.

That's not to suggest they didn't play the right way; they used the backboard, made the extra pass, crashed the boards, played tough-nosed defense, and reminded us that mind does matter in basketball. But then, they were done.

"Done? Not yet," you tell me.

"Donzo," I reply, because I'm talking about the 2001 Utah Jazz. But my answer would basically be the same if I was referring to the San Antonio Spurs today.

There's the (Big) fundamental franchise power forward in Tim Duncan (San Antonio's Karl Malone), who will turn 33 before the 2009 playoffs. Duncan's biological age is starting to catch up to him imperceptibly and obviously. He shot a career low 45% in the playoffs last season, perhaps due to burgeoning stamina issues. Still he's got the style and moxie to age well statistically. Merlin will uphold his reputation as one of the league's best for the next three years. But the fact that the Spurs may need to rest him for a few extra minutes a game during the regular season could cost them a few wins in a league where a point at either end can make all the difference.

Duncan's penetrating sidekicks, Manu Ginobili (Jeff Hornacek) and Tony Parker (John Stockton), are in their primes right now, but each also carry question marks. Ginobili, a sixth man in title only, attempted more shots than ever last season with impressive efficiency. There are concerns over his durability (he's yet to go a full season without missing a handful of games due to injury), and, fittingly, the Argentinian just had ankle surgery that could cause him to miss the beginning of the season. Parker, a playoff superstar throughout his career, lacks range on his jumper. As Duncan's presence in the middle diminishes with age, Parker may find it more difficult to find space to finish his oft-acrobatic drives.

That triumvirate, however, is not the reason to worry in San Antonio.

The one-time elite defensive stopper Bruce Bowen (Bryon Russell) is now 37, and evidence suggests that he may have lost the handcuffs he used to lock down opposing scorers the last seven years with the Spurs. Kobe Bryant averaged 29.2 points on 53.3% from the field when marked primarily by Bowen in the Western Conference Finals. He's enjoyed a long career by playing dirty, but you have to keep up with your opponent to kick and trip him up, something that's getting more difficult by the year.

Fellow role players past their prime include Robert Horry (38 when the 2009 playoffs begin and mulling retirement), Kurt Thomas (36), Michael Finley (36), Jacque Vaughn (34), Fabricio Oberto (34), and Ime Udoka (31). How they kept up with the Phoenix Suns in last year's playoffs never ceases to perplex me.

Roger Mason was signed to give the team a "young", "proven" "sharpshooter." At 28, it's debatable whether Mason should be termed young. Coming off the only season of his career when he's averaged more than four points, he can hardly be labeled proven. And a career 35% shooter before last season, there was nothing sharp about Mason before breaking out (sort of) in Gilbert Arenas' stead.

Draft pick George Hill looked good value at the 26th pick in this year's draft, but struggled with his shooting in the Summer League. I expect him to become a useful NBA player, but how often do late first round picks turn into stars? Parker was a late first rounder, and Ginobili a second rounder, though, so there may hope.

The lack of quality young support for Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker is worrisome, but more onerous may be the improving state of the West.

Last season, the Los Angeles Lakers won one more game (57) than the Spurs (56) and should improve this year. The New Orleans Hornets won just as many and feature one of the NBA's youngest cores. The Houston Rockets won 55 games, and their acquisition of Ron Artest makes them a favorite for the championship this year. The Phoenix Suns (55) are fading like the Spurs, but their reassembled roster could have one last hurrah in it. And the Utah Jazz (54) are built in the mold of their predecessors.

Looking ahead, it's only a matter of time until the Portland Trailblazers assume a long-term position atop the West, possibly this season even, on the back of Greg Oden (who the Spurs were rumored to have offered Tim Duncan for in a trade before the 2007 draft). And the Memphis Grizzlies, Oklahoma City Thunder, and Los Angeles Clippers all seem likely to cause headaches before Duncan retires.

So it seems that even if the Spurs are as good as last season, they'll win a few less games in an improved West. And they're one serious injury to Duncan, Ginobili, or Parker away from having to worry about missing the playoffs this year for just the second time since the 1989-90 season. Don't bet against it.

If the 2010-11 season arrives with little retooling, good health may not be enough to get the Spurs in the postseason, let alone deep into it.

Final Verdict: 52 wins, sixth seed, first round playoff exit in May. No more conference finals until a major acquisition is made.

[DPG21920]

Who wrote this, a 5th grader? Take out the grammatical errors, I have never heard that the Spurs offered Duncan in a trade for anyone, especially Oden.

[duncan228]

Looking ahead, it's only a matter of time until the Portland Trailblazers assume a long-term position atop the West, possibly this season even, on the back of Greg Oden (who the Spurs were rumored to have offered Tim Duncan for in a trade before the 2007 draft).

WTF?

[Anti.Hero]

:lmao

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

LINK (http://www.kornheiserscartel.com/2008/09/10035.html)

Monday, September 29, 2008
The San Antonio Spurs: Bucked Off the Top of the West For Good
Fellow role players past their prime include Robert Horry

How they kept up with the Phoenix Suns in last year's playoffs never ceases to perplex me.

Coming off the only season of his career when he's averaged more than four points, he can hardly be labeled proven. And a career 35% shooter before last season, there was nothing sharp about Mason before breaking out (sort of) in Gilbert Arenas' stead.

Draft pick George Hill looked good value at the 26th pick in this year's draft, but struggled with his shooting in the Summer League. I expect him to become a useful NBA player, but how often do late first round picks turn into stars? Parker was a late first rounder, and Ginobili a second rounder, though, so there may hope.

Looking ahead, it's only a matter of time until the Portland Trailblazers assume a long-term position atop the West, possibly this season even, on the back of Greg Oden (who the Spurs were rumored to have offered Tim Duncan for in a trade before the 2007 draft). And the Memphis Grizzlies, Oklahoma City Thunder, and Los Angeles Clippers all seem likely to cause headaches before Duncan retires.

Final Verdict: 52 wins, sixth seed, first round playoff exit in May. No more conference finals until a major acquisition is made.

Fucking idiot.

[Allanon]

Greg Oden (who the Spurs were rumored to have offered Tim Duncan for in a trade before the 2007 draft).
I had never heard of this one. You always hate to be known as the guy who traded Duncan but I would have done it too if I was in the Spurs FO.



And the Memphis Grizzlies, Oklahoma City Thunder, and Los Angeles Clippers all seem likely to cause headaches before Duncan retires.
I don't think people realize how good these 3 teams have gotten. If you think Portland is talented and young, the Grizzlies are barely behind them in young raw talent.

Clippers are also much improved this year.

I don't know how they're gonna fit all these teams into 8 playoff spots, there will be some epic fighting for 7&8 seeds.

[Bruno]

WTF?

Before last year draft, Blazers beat writer has said that "I know that two Western Conference teams have offered their superstars in return for their #1 pick and they are hall-of-famers. The Blazers turned down both.".

Link : http://www.blazersedge.com/story/2007/6/8/32220/74489

Blazers fans have then speculated on who were these two teams and players.
I guess that the homer ones have decided that it was Bryant and Duncan.

IMO and if this rumor was true, Garnett has been offered. I'm not sure for the second one maybe Dirk, Nash or TMac.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

Blazers get Duncan and Ginobili

Spurs get #1 pick(Oden), $5 million cash and a future second round pick.

Would have been a great deal!

[DPG21920]

I had never heard of this one. You always hate to be known as the guy who traded Duncan but I would have done it too if I was in the Spurs FO.


I don't think people realize how good these 3 teams have gotten. If you think Portland is talented and young, the Grizzlies are barely behind them in young raw talent.

Clippers are also much improved this year.

I don't know how they're gonna fit all these teams into 8 playoff spots.

I think I have you figured out. You are worse than my brother who is a Laker fan. You love the Lakers and only pretend to respect the Spurs. You say things and post articles, but there is always a hint of back-handedness to what you say. So quit posturing and be real.

No way would the Spurs FO do that. It makes no sense. Also, the Griz are not improved. They got rid of their best player. They also have no depth or skill up front. They have a lot of guards who are mediocre as of now, although it is a decent looking back court. OKC is still terrible, but their new website is very nice. The Clippers are ok and if healthy can compete. If healthy, a Kaman/Camby pairing is very nice. If Baron is healthy and motivated that is a nice pg. Al Thornton is very good, but he needs to keep improving. But none of those teams will be within reach of the playoffs unless there are multiple injuries to multiple teams.

[duncan228]

Before last year draft, Blazers beat writer has said that "I know that two Western Conference teams have offered their superstars in return for their #1 pick and they are hall-of-famers. The Blazers turned down both.".

Link : http://www.blazersedge.com/story/2007/6/8/32220/74489

Blazers fans have then speculated on who were these two teams and players.
I guess that the homer ones have decided that it was Bryant and Duncan.

IMO and if this rumor was true, Garnett has been offered. I'm not sure for the second one maybe Dirk, Nash or TMac.

Thanks Bruno.

I'd have to hear it from the Spurs themselves to believe it. I just don't see them putting Duncan up for anything. He's brought 4 titles to this franchise and he's far from done.

It's a business, but I believe Duncan will retire a Spur. He doesn't have a no trade clause, but I'm fairly certain he's got a trade kicker. He has at least some leverage in what happens.

Fans can speculate on anything they want, I need proof.

[DPG21920]

I have read nothing but blogs and opinions. This is just a stupid rumor that kills any credibility while writing an article.

[Manufan909]

I wonder who they meant. Plus, this team is NOT going to be bounced in the 1st round. I'm guessing 4th-6th spot.

[ALWAYS bet on BLACK]

[quote=duncan228;2797557]Thanks Bruno.

I'd have to hear it from the Spurs themselves to believe it. I just don't see them putting Duncan up for anything. He's brought 4 titles to this franchise and he's far from done.
/quote]

wrong.

Parker and Manu have brought 2 titles while Duncan looked like a deer in headlights.

Duncan brought 1 title and Avery Johnson and Davey Robinson brought the other one.

And yes, he will not win another championship.

Hes done.

[DPG21920]

[quote=duncan228;2797557]Thanks Bruno.

I'd have to hear it from the Spurs themselves to believe it. I just don't see them putting Duncan up for anything. He's brought 4 titles to this franchise and he's far from done.
/quote]

wrong.

Parker and Manu have brought 2 titles while Duncan looked like a deer in headlights.

Duncan brought 1 title and Avery Johnson and Davey Robinson brought the other one.

And yes, he will not win another championship.

Hes done.

He might not win another title, but that is only because the margin for error is so low. It takes many things to win a title. Duncan has been the only constant through all 4.

[Bruno]

I just don't see them putting Duncan up for anything.

Agree and I don't buy a single millisecond that one of the player offered to Blazers was Duncan.

And do you see Pop trading Duncan while even his facial hairs are under Duncan's control ?

[duncan228]

Agree and I don't buy a single millisecond that one of the player offered to Blazers was Duncan.

Me either. :)


And do you see Pop trading Duncan while even his facial hairs are under Duncan's control ?

:lol

Pop and Duncan make a great team. It's a special relationship.

[xellos88330]

[URL="http://www.kornheiserscartel.com/2008/09/10035.html"]

How they kept up with the Phoenix Suns in last year's playoffs never ceases to perplex me.

Obviously a pro-Suns writer who must have bet against the Spurs. Now he is using his pen to attempt to make himself feel better.

[xellos88330]

[quote=duncan228;2797557]Thanks Bruno.

I'd have to hear it from the Spurs themselves to believe it. I just don't see them putting Duncan up for anything. He's brought 4 titles to this franchise and he's far from done.
/quote]

wrong.

Parker and Manu have brought 2 titles while Duncan looked like a deer in headlights.

Duncan brought 1 title and Avery Johnson and Davey Robinson brought the other one.
And yes, he will not win another championship.

Hes done.

Doesn't Timmy have 3 NBA Finals MVP's??? Or is it just my imagination??? Oh, and 2 MVP's for the season. The other guys did play key roles though. However, It was Tim who made it possible for them to get that far in the first place.

[duncan228]

Obviously a pro-Suns writer...

Suns pic from today: :lol

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp/SunsGroupMedia.jpg

[xellos88330]

Suns pic from today: :lol

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x282/duncan228/temp/SunsGroupMedia.jpg

Shaq already has Amare bending over... BWAHAHA!!! just messin. :lmao

[Obstructed_View]

Obviously a pro-Suns writer who must have bet against the Spurs. Now he is using his pen to attempt to make himself feel better.

You must not watch PTI to know how right you are.

[Manufan909]

Nash looks like he could be a drummer for Greenday with that haircut... and that is NOT a compliment.

[Allanon]

I think I have you figured out. You are worse than my brother who is a Laker fan. You love the Lakers and only pretend to respect the Spurs. You say things and post articles, but there is always a hint of back-handedness to what you say. So quit posturing and be real.
No way would the Spurs FO do that. It makes no sense.


Nah, I like Duncan alot and was a Spur fan before I moved to LA. And even if I didn't like the Spurs, there's no Spur/Lakers rivalry, no reason for me to hate the Spurs at all. I've only hated 1 team...the Suns and now I kind of feel sorry for them. Starting to hate the Celtics though...looking forward to hating the Blazers too.

You have to be crazy not to trade a 30 year old Duncan for an 18 year old Oden. Hell, in 3 years I'd trade Kobe for some young LeBron/Oden/Bynum like stud.

Backhanded? Nope, realistic, I call it like I see it. During the Laker crappy years a few years ago, I was perfectly fine saying that the Lakers sucked....because it was true.



Also, the Griz are not improved. They got rid of their best player. They also have no depth or skill up front.
The Grizzlies have major depth in the frontcourt, probably moreso than most NBA teams: Darko, Gasol, Haddadii, Gay, Warrick, Arthur. Gay, Warrick, Gasol, Haddadi, Arthur will be especially good.



They have a lot of guards who are mediocre as of now, although it is a decent looking back court.
Every one of them is a better guard than a Spur guard other than Tony Parker: OJ Mayo, Lowry, Ross, Conley, Crittenton, Jaric, Buckner

The Grizz are a very deep team.



OKC is still terrible, but their new website is very nice.
OKC is debateable.



The Clippers are ok and if healthy can compete. If healthy, a Kaman/Camby pairing is very nice. If Baron is healthy and motivated that is a nice pg. Al Thornton is very good, but he needs to keep improving.
Kaman, Camby, Thornton, Davis, Eric Gordon is a damn fine lineup.



But none of those teams will be within reach of the playoffs unless there are multiple injuries to multiple teams.
I think Clippers, Grizz, Warriors, Nuggets, Blazers are well within reach of the Playoffs. OKC and Minnesota, maybe not but they will be improved quite a bit.

[benefactor]

This guy is just making stuff up. Fail.

[timtonymanu]

that was the worst Spurs article i've ever read.

[m33p0]

You have to be crazy not to trade a 30 year old Duncan for an 18 year old Oden. Hell, in 3 years I'd trade Kobe for some young LeBron/Oden/Bynum like stud.

why would the blazers and the spurs do this trade? it wouldn't make sense for both parties.

you put duncan with a team of talented yet untested youngster then you have wasted the last years of duncan's prime. you put oden on the spurs then you have wasted the prime years of manu, wasted parker's early prime years, and the last productive years of bowen.

duncan is an all-timer and is still only 32. he still has a couple more of championship runs left in him. oden, talented as he is being tauted to be, still has that "potential" tag. he can be the next duncan or the next olowakandi.

if your goal is to have a team that will contend and draw seats, duncan for oden will make sense. but if your goal is to win now with what the spurs has, trading duncan for oden or, for anybody for that matter, is not the way to do it.

[Allanon]

why would the blazers and the spurs do this trade? it wouldn't make sense for both parties.

you put duncan with a team of talented yet untested youngster then you have wasted the last years of duncan's prime.

The Blazers are too young right now, they have no veteran leadership. Put Duncan on the Blazers and they're instant contenders and they have the youth to continue being very good beyond Duncan's retirement.



you put oden on the spurs then you have wasted the prime years of manu, wasted parker's early prime years, and the last productive years of bowen.
Oden with the Spurs would be just as good of a team this year and a better team in the upcoming years if the trade was made back then.



duncan is an all-timer and is still only 32. he still has a couple more of championship runs left in him. oden, talented as he is being tauted to be, still has that "potential" tag. he can be the next duncan or the next olowakandi.
Duncan could have made the Blazers strong championship contenders within this decade. But with Oden, I feel the Blazers are still 3-5 years away.

Sure, Oden could be a bust but you just gotta take the chance. I think Duncan still has a couple of championships left in him, but not as the Spurs are currently constructed. I think the Spurs will have a major trade this year.

It could have been a win-win for both teams. As it is now, the Spurs have a declining superstar with no future replacement. It can be said that the Spurs are already wasting the best years of Timmy, Manu and Parker. For the Blazers, they're talented but just too young to be serious.



if your goal is to have a team that will contend and draw seats, duncan for oden will make sense.

It's similar to the Lakers back then when they traded for Kobe. At the time, Vlade was the star player for the team but the Lakers bit the bullet for an untested high school kid...Kobe. Sure Vlade's no Duncan, but Kobe at the time was like a 12th pick and very iffy.

With Oden the Spurs would still be a contender, have a future and pack the seats. The only thing that stood in the way is trading your franchise player, that's never easy.



but if your goal is to win now with what the spurs has, trading duncan for oden or, for anybody for that matter, is not the way to do it.
I agree it's not the best way to do it but it's one way to do it.

If the Spurs win the championship this year or Oden is a bust, obviously I'm wrong as hell. but if the Spurs can't capture the championship this year or the next, that trade rumor could have been pretty sexy.

[DPG21920]

Nah, I like Duncan alot and was a Spur fan before I moved to LA. And even if I didn't like the Spurs, there's no Spur/Lakers rivalry, no reason for me to hate the Spurs at all. I've only hated 1 team...the Suns and now I kind of feel sorry for them. Starting to hate the Celtics though...looking forward to hating the Blazers too.

The fact you say you were a Spur fan until you moved makes you the biggest band wagoner of all time. The fact you say there is no Spurs/Lakers rivalry makes you lose all credibility. Who is it that halted the Lakers 3 Peat run? Who were the two best bigs and who did they play for until recently?
All you do is talk shit in a palatable way about the Spurs and then type: "nah,...". I can go through many of your post where you do the same thing over and over.


You have to be crazy not to trade a 30 year old Duncan for an 18 year old Oden. Hell, in 3 years I'd trade Kobe for some young LeBron/Oden/Bynum like stud.

You obviously do not understand that this is a win now league. You know the phrase a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? That goes 10 fold for the NBA. It is better to have a known entity, that has won chips, that still has years left with a team that is built to win. The fact that you even remotely believe this crazy rumor with no evidence at all is silly. To say that you would have to be crazy NOT to trade Duncan makes me question many things.


Backhanded? Nope, realistic, I call it like I see it. During the Laker crappy years a few years ago, I was perfectly fine saying that the Lakers sucked....because it was true.

What does that have to do with anything. You always beat around the bush when it comes to talking trash, hence the back handedness. You say the Lakers will win 70 and then proceed to always post articles about the Spurs in a negative light and then ever so politely oblige us with subtle trash talk.


The Grizzlies have major depth in the frontcourt, probably moreso than most NBA teams: Darko, Gasol, Haddadii, Gay, Warrick, Arthur. Gay, Warrick, Gasol, Haddadi, Arthur will be especially good.


Every one of them is a better guard than a Spur guard other than Tony Parker: OJ Mayo, Lowry, Ross, Conley, Crittenton, Jaric, Buckner

The Grizz are a very deep team.

Just having guys that play the position does not give you depth. If you want to argue they have depth because of sheer numbers, then I give that to you. But depth means you have capable players. Darko has done nothing, Gasol is below average, Haddadii is unproven and looks to be very mediocre, Gay is very talented but I was referring to mostly their 4/5 spots, Warrick is decent given the minutes, and Authur is a rookie. I would rather have Duncan, Oberto and KT. You would disagree because you value guys who have never played/won over guys that have done it. You think Duncan should be traded for an unproven/injured player, you think Bynum is better than Robinson and you think Oberto is useless.

So Ginobili is not a guard? Roger Mason is not a guard? Finley is not a guard? All of these players, including TP are better than the Grizz guards. That is not to say that the Grizz do not have a nice back court, but come on. This team is still bottom of the league. They could be a decent team in the future, but not now.


OKC is debateable.

There is no debate. This team is bottom of the league still.


Kaman, Camby, Thornton, Davis, Eric Gordon is a damn fine lineup

I already said the Clips have a decent line-up. But let me ask you this: Is Kaman, Camby, Thornton, Davis, Eric Gordon better than Kaman, Brand, Maggette/Thornton, Cassell? Because that is essentially what they traded. I do not think the new team is better than the old and the old team was very disappointing with the exception of 2005/2006


I think Clippers, Grizz, Warriors, Nuggets, Blazers are well within reach of the Playoffs. OKC and Minnesota, maybe not but they will be improved quite a bit.

Where did all of these other teams come into the mix, we were discussing 3 (Grizz, Clips and OKC). OKC and Grizz will once again be bottom feeders, Clips might will have an improvement but not reach the playoffs, Warriors are in serious trouble, Nuggets are in serious trouble. I only think that 1 of the teams you mentioned has a shot at the playoffs (barring massive injuries to a couple of teams) and that is Portland. I agree that Minn will be improved.

So go ahead and just write: Nah, actually...

[Allanon]

The fact you say you were a Spur fan, until you moved makes you the biggest band wagoner of all time. The fact you say there is no Spurs/Lakers rivalry makes you lose all credibility. Who is it that halted the Lakers 3 Peat run? Who were the two best bigs and who did they play for until recently?
All you do is talk shit in a palatable way about the Spurs and then type: "nah,...". I can go through many of your post where you do the same thing over and over.

Yup, I'm a bandwagoner, I switch teams every time I move to a new city. But just because I move cities, doesn't mean I hate my old team. If I had moved to Charlotte, I'd be a Bobcat fan.

I think the 3-Peat Lakers stopped themselves, not so much the Spurs. All that internal bickering...you knew they would crush themselves. I don't really know any other Laker fans that hate the Spurs, there's just no bad blood, it's always been a classy matchup.

As for palatable, I do try to stay away from the downer talk and I stay away from the Spurs are the best threads, no need for downer talk from me in those threads.



You obviously do not understand that this is a win now league. You know the phrase a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? That goes 10 fold for the NBA. It is better to have a known entity, that has won chips, that still has years left with a team that is built to win. The fact that you even remotely believe this crazy rumor with no evidence at all is silly. To say that you would have to be crazy NOT to trade Duncan makes me question many things.

I didn't say I believed the rumor, just discussing it. Talk to me in 2 years and then we'll see how "crazy" Oden for Duncan was.



What does that have to do with anything. You always beat around the bush when it comes to talking trash, hence the back handedness. You say the Lakers will win 70 and then proceed to always post articles about the Spurs in a negative light and then ever so politely oblige us with subtle trash talk.

Negative Spurs articles? When do I do that? I posted the ESPN Power Rankings yesterday which have the Spurs at #5. That's an incredibly good ranking considering that Manu's out for the next 2 months. I personally would have ranked the Spurs around #10.

70 wins? Sure. The Celtics of last year won 66. With a team as talented and deep as the Lakers, a 60 win season is a disappointment.



Just having guys that play the position does not give you depth. If you want to argue they have depth because of sheer numbers, then I give that to you. But depth means you have capable players. Darko has done nothing, Gasol is below average, Haddadii is unproven and looks to be very mediocre, Gay is very talented but I was referring to mostly their 4/5 spots, Warrick is decent given the minutes, and Authur is a rookie. I would rather have Duncan, Oberto and KT.

In a few weeks we'll know how mediocre these guys are or are not. With Duncan, that's hard to beat, but I think your opinions of Gasol, Haddadi and Arthur will be changed.



You would disagree because you value guys who have never played/won over guys that have done it. You think Duncan should be traded for an unproven/injured player, you think Bynum is better than Robinson and you think Oberto is useless.
Duncan should have been traded for an up-coming superstar level guy...Oden. Even unproven, his talent is hard to dismiss, especially for an aging Spurs team.

Bynum is NOT better than Robinson, but he COULD be.

Oberto isn't useless, he's incredibly useless.



So Ginobili is not a guard? Roger Mason is not a guard? Finley is not a guard? All of these players, including TP are better than the Grizz guards. That is not to say that the Grizz do not have a nice back court, but come on. This team is still bottom of the league. They could be a decent team in the future, but not now.

Sorry, I forgot about Manu. But, yes, the rest are better than Mason and Finley.



I already said the Clips have a decent line-up. But let me ask you this: Is Kaman, Camby, Thornton, Davis, Eric Gordon better than Kaman, Brand, Maggette/Thornton, Cassell? Because that is essentially what they traded. I do not think the new team is better than the old and the old team was very disappointing with the exception of 2005/2006

Yes this Clipper team is better, Baron Davis is a winner. As good as Brand is, he's not a winner, nor is Maggette.



Where did all of these other teams come into the mix, we were discussing 3 (Grizz, Clips and OKC). OKC and Grizz will once again be bottom feeders, Clips might will have an improvement but not reach the playoffs, Warriors are in serious trouble, Nuggets are in serious trouble. I only think that 1 of the teams you mentioned has a shot at the playoffs (barring massive injuries to a couple of teams) and that is Portland. I agree that Minn will be improved.

I'm listing all the bubble teams. I never count out AI/Melo. None of those teams will win the championship but they'll all make life harder for the Playoff teams...plenty of the Spurs losses will come from the Grizz, Thunder, Nuggets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers. And any of those teams can be the #8, #7 seed in the Playoffs, except possibly the Thunder. And losses to those teams will assure the Spurs don't get a Top 5 seed this year.

[DPG21920]

Yup, I'm a bandwagoner, I switch teams every time I move to a new city. But just because I move cities, doesn't mean I hate my old team.

The 3-Peat Lakers stopped themselves, not so much the Spurs. All that internal bickering...you knew they would crush themselves. I don't really know any other Laker fans that hate the Spurs, there's just no bad blood, it's always been a classy matchup.

OK, so the talent of a team who won 3 titles after the 3 peat had nothing to do with it. Who cares if it was a classy match up, it was the 2 most dominate franchises battling it out. You do not know Laker fans that hate the Spurs because you switch teams. There are plenty of true Laker fans that the despise the Spurs and vice-versa.



As for palatable, I do try to stay away from the downer talk and I stay away from the Spurs are the best threads, no need for downer talk from me in those threads.

I did not say you just troll and talk trash. I said you do it in a back handed way, and this goes in line with my assessment.




I didn't say I believed the rumor, just discussing it. Talk to me in 2 years and then we'll see how "crazy" Oden for Duncan was.

No matter what, it would be crazy. As long is Tim is under contract, he has a better chance at winning a title. That is what is important. Your argument that the Spurs are not building for the future is silly. Where do you think all that money that Tim makes is going to go when he retires? To getting someone to replace him. So why give up a chance at winning now and losing fan base when you can probably get a proven player later through FA? If Oden turns out to be that good, the Spurs can throw a max contract at him then.


Negative Spurs articles? When do I do that. I posted the ESPN Power Rankings yesterday which have the Spurs at #5. That's an incredibly good ranking considering that Manu's out for the next 2 months.

It is not really terrible articles, but articles that paint the Spurs in a negative light. It is not that you post the articles, because you post many other kinds as well, it is that you always take the subtle shots at the Spurs, especially in defense of the Lakers.



In a few weeks we'll know how mediocre these guys are or are not. With Duncan, that's hard to beat, but I think your opinions of Gasol, Haddadi and Arthur will be changed.

Very true, we will not know until the season unfolds, but I never think giving up your best player is a good thing.


Duncan should have been traded for an up-coming superstar level guy...Oden. Even unproven, his talent is hard to dismiss, especially for an aging Spurs team.

Bynum is NOT better than Robinson, but he COULD be.

Oberto isn't useless, he's incredibly useless.

I have already explained why you are wrong about Duncan being traded.
Many coaches would rather have Oberto over any of the Memphis bigs you mentioned. The guy is a winner. Olympics and NBA. Kobe COULD be better than Jordan.





Sorry, I forgot about Manu. But, yes, the rest are better than Mason and Finley.


Well we will have to agree to disagree. I will take Finley, Manu, Parker and Mason. I would take Mayo over Fin and Mason, but that is where it stops.


Yes this Clipper team is better, Baron Davis is a winner. As good as Brand is, he's not a winner, nor is Maggette.

What has he won? Last I checked, they have both made it the same length in the Post-Season



I'm listing all the bubble teams. I never count out AI/Melo. None of those teams will win the championship but they'll all make life harder for the Playoff teams...plenty of the Spurs losses will come from the Grizz, Thunder, Nuggets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers. And any of those teams can be the #8, #7 seed in the Playoffs, except possibly the Thunder. And losses to those teams will assure the Spurs don't get a Top 5 seed this year.

I will go on record to say that unless there are injuries to the major contenders that: the Nuggets, Warriors, Clippers, Grizz and OKC will not make the playoffs. The Spurs will be the 5th seed at worst unless injuries get worse. The Lakers and New Orleans were already ahead of the Spurs last year so they will stay. You can say Houston got better so they can switch to the 3rd spot. Utah is a lock for the top 4. That leaves the Spurs at 5 because everyone below the Spurs last year with the exception of Jazz and Houston are not better.

[Allanon]

I think we've hashed out most of it so I won't quote it all and we'll disagree on some points.

As for back-handedness, there are plenty of cool Spur posters here. Your posts are usually pretty fair. I'm not gonna diss you guys with constant downer talk. I stick to the critical threads started by other Spur fans and I go with how I feel about the Spurs chances this year...even then I try to hold some back.

As for Lakers in a good light vs Spurs, of course because the Lakers are in a much better situation right now and I still am a Laker homer after all. And to be honest, I'd rather wish the Spurs luck to get the #2 seed than the Hornets because I don't particularly like CP3.

70 Wins? Why not? The Lakers last year when Pau played, were on a 70 win pace...85% wins. With Bynum and Ariza back, I think they have a legitimate shot at the Bulls.

About the other bubble teams, we'll see in a few months. I'll go one further and say one of the Texas Triangle teams will miss the playoffs completely.

[DPG21920]

I am not saying that you are a bad poster, just that I get the feeling you really do not like the Spurs but try to play nice. I would rather you just let it out. This strikes a nerve mainly because of my brother. He will say all the pc stuff, but if you give him a chance he shows his true colors. You post a lot of good stuff, I disagree with a lot of it, but it is still good.

Lakers
NO
Houston
Utah
Spurs
Suns
Mavs
Blazers

I think the bottom 3 can switch spots, but I think that is who makes the playoffs baring injuries.

[mrspurs]

I dont understand when someone writes the truth everyone starts laughing and starts name calling. Basically everything this writer wrote is true. Ive said it all along. Timmy cant do it by himself. The FO brought back Fab and Kurt. Those 2 are choke artists period. Until they find some real help for Timmy, I feel for the man. The FO has been looking around for people to help TP,Manu and Bruce. Failing at all 3 thus far imo. And for Timmy they do nothing, expect his shooting woes to get even worse. Its not hard to double him when the guy next to him can be left all alone. There is no fun in having to deal with that, but the truth hurts sometimes. If our hopes on going farther then one playoff series depend on the health of our and other teams players then we aint good enough.

[DPG21920]

I dont understand when someone writes the truth everyone starts laughing and starts name calling. Basically everything this writer wrote is true. Ive said it all along. Timmy cant do it by himself. The FO brought back Fab and Kurt. Those 2 are choke artists period. Until they find some real help for Timmy, I feel for the man. The FO has been looking around for people to help TP,Manu and Bruce. Failing at all 3 thus far imo. And for Timmy they do nothing, expect his shooting woes to get even worse. Its not hard to double him when the guy next to him can be left all alone. There is no fun in having to deal with that, but the truth hurts sometimes. If our hopes on going farther then one playoff series depend on the health of our and other teams players then we aint good enough.

See Allanon, this is how I picture you seeing the Spurs!

[Allanon]

I am not saying that you are a bad poster, just that I get the feeling you really do not like the Spurs but try to play nice. I would rather you just let it out. This strikes a nerve mainly because of my brother. He will say all the pc stuff, but if you give him a chance he shows his true colors. You post a lot of good stuff, I disagree with a lot of it, but it is still good.

Lakers
NO
Houston
Utah
Spurs
Suns
Mavs
Blazers

I think the bottom 3 can switch spots, but I think that is who makes the playoffs baring injuries.

I think one of the Texas Triangle teams will miss the Playoffs and make room for one of those bubble teams.

You're right, I don't say exactly how I feel alot of the time, but that's out of respect for being on a Spurs board. If I had a Lakers board, I'd hate it if some guy constantly comes in saying the Lakers suck to my face.

I don't dislike the Spurs at all, I just like the Lakers better.

Alot of the stuff I say sounds bad because it's a "Laker fan" who says it.

[MagnusKrauss]

Built around a powerful, boring All-NBA and All-Defensive first team power forward

this right here marks the beginning of something stupid.


Tim Duncan (San Antonio's Karl Malone)

Karl Malone = Tim Duncan ?

When did Tim Duncan transform into an asshole who fathers illegitemate children with underage girls?


He's enjoyed a long career by playing dirty, but you have to keep up with your opponent to kick and trip him up, something that's getting more difficult by the year.

Exactly when will this Bruce Bowen dirty player end?


How they kept up with the Phoenix Suns in last year's playoffs never ceases to perplex me.

They had Shaq to slow them down.


The lack of quality young support for Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker is worrisome, but more onerous may be the improving state of the West.

The man is right! Let's tank the season so we can draft higher.

Shit.


The Houston Rockets won 55 games, and their acquisition of Ron Artest makes them a favorite for the championship this year.

I remember reading this line when they got back Steve Francis. What happened?

Also, didn't they have the god-like Scola to lead them?



The Phoenix Suns (55) are fading like the Spurs, but their reassembled roster could have one last hurrah in it.

hmmm....


And the Utah Jazz (54) are built in the mold of their predecessors.

This one I'm not gonna argue. Much as I hate the old Jazz team, this current incarnation is pretty solid. I just don't know if they're championship material.



Looking ahead, it's only a matter of time until the Portland Trailblazers assume a long-term position atop the West, possibly this season even, on the back of Greg Oden (who the Spurs were rumored to have offered Tim Duncan for in a trade before the 2007 draft). And the Memphis Grizzlies, Oklahoma City Thunder, and Los Angeles Clippers all seem likely to cause headaches before Duncan retires.

young teams. might be true. lets just see.

But I doubt the Spurs offered Duncan for Oden. Pop would kill anyone who did that.


Final Verdict: 52 wins, sixth seed, first round playoff exit in May. No more conference finals until a major acquisition is made.

Everyone's entitled to have their own predictions. Just don't expect the rest of us to agree with you. Or to stop laughing at you behind your back.

:flag:

Just who is this guy anyway?

[m33p0]

It's similar to the Lakers back then when they traded for Kobe. At the time, Vlade was the star player for the team but the Lakers bit the bullet for an untested high school kid...Kobe. Sure Vlade's no Duncan, but Kobe at the time was like a 12th pick and very iffy.

a good center for a potential all-star guard is a good bet especially when you factor in the fact that at that time, the lakers weren't contending. (campbell was still lakers then, right?) kobe slipped 12th because high school players were almost unheard of back then especially considering the last high profile high schooler before then was daryl dawkins.

trading a team's here-and-now for potential when your team has the chance to win now is not a good strategy especially when the here-and-now is an all-time great, still healthy, and still very much capable of leading your team to championships.

i think even you would believe that the spurs is just one good (some of the more pessimistic would say "very good") role player away from becoming top 3 contender status. if the spurs can manage to trade for someone proven, god bless 'em. if not, i am hoping that mason and/or ian would fill that slot. but as of today, they are only potentials.

[Obstructed_View]

You guys are aware of who wrote that article, right? He absolutely hates the Spurs, and his ability to turn wishful thinking into facts makes him eligible to work for NBC news.

[m33p0]

You guys are aware of who wrote that article, right? He absolutely hates the Spurs, and his ability to turn wishful thinking into facts makes him eligible to work for NBC news.

Monday, September 29, 2008
The San Antonio Spurs: Bucked Off the Top of the West For Good

Built around a powerful, boring All-NBA...

that's as far as i got.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The guy who wrote this article obviously doesn't watch or pay attention to basketball outside of whatever team he roots for. Some of my thoughts on the article:

1. Comparing the current era Spurs to the Karl Malone Utah Jazz is pretty funny considering the title count for those two teams stands at 4-0. The Jazz could only go as far as Malone/Stockton could take them...there was no Manu factor, or Pop factor, or role player factor beyond Russell and Horny. The author compared Manu to Hornacek...I'd of given the author a little more credit had he compared Barry to Hornacek as that comparison would have been a little closer. Hornacek played a lot more than Barry, but skill wise I'd rate them a lot closer to even than Hornacek v. Manu.

2. The "boring" term seems to be the go-to moniker for anyone that isn't a Spurs fan.

3. This guy uses regular season wins as a basis for comparing success. Maybe he's Mavs fan.

4. Is Robert Horry only 38...I thought he was 62, and when did SA resign him?!! :hungry:

[ambchang]

I dont understand when someone writes the truth everyone starts laughing and starts name calling. Basically everything this writer wrote is true. Ive said it all along. Timmy cant do it by himself. The FO brought back Fab and Kurt. Those 2 are choke artists period. Until they find some real help for Timmy, I feel for the man. The FO has been looking around for people to help TP,Manu and Bruce. Failing at all 3 thus far imo. And for Timmy they do nothing, expect his shooting woes to get even worse. Its not hard to double him when the guy next to him can be left all alone. There is no fun in having to deal with that, but the truth hurts sometimes. If our hopes on going farther then one playoff series depend on the health of our and other teams players then we aint good enough.

You have said Timmy needs help the last 1009 posts. We hear it the last 1009 times, so you can stop posting that.

[Manufan909]

You have said Timmy needs help the last 1009 posts. We hear it the last 1009 times, so you can stop posting that.

+1

I just skim his posts now, it's like he copy and pastes.:bang

[SpurSupremacist]

Four words to explain this article: Are. Oh. Eff. El.

[Phenomanul]

This just in.....

Oden is older than Duncan....

His white hair count is greater...

:hat