People are calling for Bowen's head [Archive]

xcoriate

02-12-2005, 06:13 AM

Well I have been kicking around other "general nba" forums, and people are calling for his head.

People are saying he should be suspended whilst others sugest an inquiry should be lead into Bowen's "dirty play" in this game and previous ones in which he has had confrontation with Ray Allen and Michael Finley.

Persoanlly I have not seen the footage but I wanted to know whether you thought if Bowen was aiming to injure via "undercutting", if it was an unintended action or perhaps you see it as part of the game and justified.

All I am going off at this moment is negative, people are bitching and whining all over the place... just hope some of you can shed a more positive light until I get to see the clip.

Cheers

Streakyshooter08

02-12-2005, 06:28 AM

Same thing in german forums... I haven't seen the game. Some seem to be mad at Pop too!? What did he do? Any indications that Bowen tried to hit him intentionally?

whottt

02-12-2005, 06:55 AM

Bruce's job is to piss everyone but Spursfans off.

I'd hate him too if he played for another team.

He's not any dirtier than Stockton was...people that try and say he's like Malone don't know what the hell they are talking about.

All I know is that Bruce messed up Brent Barry as badly as he has messed up anyone and that didn't keep Barry from wanting to be on the same team with him...in fact it might be part of the reason Barry came to SA.

As for tonights game...Bruce didn't stick his foot underneath Carter anymore than Carter kicked his feet forward...

My advice to Vince is to not shoot when Bruce is in his face...it's a bad shot anyway.

xcoriate

02-12-2005, 07:25 AM

Bruce's job is to piss everyone but Spursfans off.

:lmao Yeah part of the reason his D is so good is that he gets into the opposing players head thus he plays mentally as well.

This time he managed to get a player ejected who was having a huge influence on the game... damn i got to see this footage so i can make a more informed judgement.

BronxCowboy

02-12-2005, 07:26 AM

What was the headbutt thing I keep hearing about? I missed that part.

picnroll

02-12-2005, 07:44 AM

In all the years Bowen's played who else besides Vincent the Pussy has he injured. Seems if he was such a dangerous and dirty player that these guys fear injury from he'd have more scalps on his belt than just the Pussy's. He's even proably way below average for causing injuries for a guy with his tenure in the NBA.

Dre_7

02-12-2005, 07:47 AM

I have been reading the forum and since I didnt see the game, I got all my info from here. Reading what was said, I thought Bruce Bowen had seriously undercut VC, intentionally attempting to hurt him. After watching the reply I have to say (sorry Sequ) there is NO WAY BB intentionally undercut VC! Vince hooked his leg! The "undercut" was not a dirty play! Im sorry Sequ and rascal, I know you guys love VC, but that was not an undercut!

GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI

02-12-2005, 07:48 AM

I agree, Vince got hurt once, and it was a freak accident, Manu Ginobili came down on Dirk Nowitzki's foot exactly the same way in the world championships a few years back.

I think Bruce sometimes uses dirty tactics to get in other players heads... but never does he try to purposely injure other players.

TDMVPDPOY

02-12-2005, 07:53 AM

i dont see anything wrong, it looked like VC was in the air with one leg foward and bb has already landed and VC leg landed on top of it and just got tangled up.

PM5K

02-12-2005, 07:55 AM

You'll also notice that Vince only gets caught up on Bruce because he kicks his leg out on his shot...

picnroll

02-12-2005, 07:55 AM

Hell Marks must be a dirty player too because Duncan twisted his ankle landing on Sean's foot. Probably a deliberate attempt to get more playing time.

t4tx

02-12-2005, 08:00 AM

I watched it and BB was just playing good D. :)

BronxCowboy

02-12-2005, 08:01 AM

so what was the headbutt thing that happened earlier in the game?

PM5K

02-12-2005, 08:02 AM

so what was the headbutt thing that happened earlier in the game?

I posted a thread with both videos, it's just a few threads down....

Streakyshooter08

02-12-2005, 08:04 AM

In some forums they say that Pop told BB to play like that and to get VC. They think BB tried to hurt Vince. I think the thing with Pop is completely wrong. Pop would never say "Hurt Vince" or anything like that. Dunno. But most of the Fans hate BB now...

PM5K

02-12-2005, 08:05 AM

"People are calling for Bowen's head"

Yeah I also heard he gave pretty good head :blah

picnroll

02-12-2005, 08:06 AM

If you can PM5K post a message with a video of a couple of Cater's normal follow throughs on threes and the one where they say Bowen ran under him. It looks like Pussy changed his normal motion on that shot deliberately to create an incident.

orhe

02-12-2005, 08:11 AM

if i wasn't a spurs fan i'd call him dirty too.
if you really watch closely he gets away with a lot of hacks
but he'll never try to injure another player

Dre_7

02-12-2005, 08:12 AM

But everyone fouls. Not every foul is a dirty play. That "undercut" was not a dirty play at all.

SequSpur

02-12-2005, 08:27 AM

GrandeDavid

02-12-2005, 08:41 AM

My advice to Vince is to not shoot when Bruce is in his face...it's a bad shot anyway.

Whottt, that was an obvious yet genius take. I applaud you and agree wholeheartedly. If you want to take a jump shot with a defender literally in your grill, maybe you should think twice or at least be prepared for some physical contact.

td4mvp21

02-12-2005, 09:43 AM

well when your known for your suffocating defense, players you guard and fans of that player/team are gonna complain. when bruce shuts someone down, they always complain because of their ego. they think theyre all that and then someone comes in and proves them wrong. But when bruce isnt shutting them down, i never hear 1 complaint. Bruce isnt dirty, he is just tough. Vince Carter stuck his leg around bowen to try to get a foul. It was a retarded move from a stupid person. Go figure.

myhc

02-12-2005, 10:34 AM

What a surprise, every other non-Spurs fan is calling Bowen dirty while every Spurs fan is calling him a tough defensive player. I saw the video and I can see where people would say he's a dirty player and that play was borderline cheap on Bowen's part. But Vince does kick his leg out at the same time so I'm sure he was looking for some sort of contact to get a foul.

Spurminator

02-12-2005, 10:36 AM

Has Bowen's supposed "undercutting" ever been a problem for any other jump shooter? I'm sort of seeing a pattern.

Johnny_Blaze_47

02-12-2005, 10:46 AM

Bowen clearly moved into Carter when he shot the ball. How many times do you see Tim's defender go underneath him unintentionally?

Never.

Exactly how many times does Duncan shoot off-balance three-pointers with two defenders on him?

Clandestino

02-12-2005, 10:49 AM

that is what happens when you are one of the league's best defenders.. players get pissed...

boutons

02-12-2005, 10:50 AM

We debated here the Bowen undercut of Carter last season, where, imo, Bruce's foot was planted under Vince as Bruce was he turned watching the shot. It just didn't look like a natural move to me, a big Bowen fan, so it's very understandable that a lot of people called Bruce's move dirty last season.

But last night, what happened was much less clear as legs were very confused and tangled. I'm very happy that VC was not hurt, and very unhappy that he was ejected. The pleasure and the victory would have been much more significant if Carter had gotten 60 points ..... in a losing cause. True super-star, all-star balla player, me first, fuck my team, fuck the game.

I guess we're stuck with another 2nd half of the season with "Bowen is dirty" echoes.

IX_Equilibrium

02-12-2005, 10:56 AM

Provide links to these forums that are calling for Bruce's head. I'll join them and offer a differing opinion.

spurster

02-12-2005, 11:07 AM

myhc

02-12-2005, 11:26 AM

Bowen tries to bother Carter's shot by jumping into Carter a little bit and at the same time Carter kicks his leg out. When Bowen lands, Carter's leg gets Bowen off-balance and into Carter. At least that is what I see on the video.

I thought Bowen had undercut Carter at first, but after Bowen lands, his movement is caused by Carter.

You're right. When Vince kicks his leg out, it hooks Bowen's leg and forces Bowen to move in Carter's direction. Vince overreacts because of the incident last year which is perfectly understandable.

rascal

02-12-2005, 11:29 AM

I saw Bowens leg come forward first then Carter's.

And I saw on replay Bowen head butt Carter first, the refs missed it, then Carter retaliated with a head butt the refs saw that and thats how he got his first technical.

I'm sure the NBA will review the tapes and keep a closer eye on Bowen. Whistles will blow much quicker on him now.

Edited: I saw the replay over a number of times and bowens leg did not come out first but he did extend it under Carter after Carter went up higher on his spinning jump shot. Carter's leg extended out first with the momentum of his shot then bowens came out underneath. It was an undercut. Not only did bowen extend his leg out he was moving forward into carter, again undercutting. Carter's leg/foot made contact with bowen and pulled him even further forward as Carter came down and both players lost their balance.

IX_Equilibrium

02-12-2005, 11:41 AM

I saw Bowens leg come forward first then Carter's.

And I saw on replay Bowen head butt Carter first, the refs missed it, then Carter retaliated with a head butt the refs saw that and thats how he got his first technical.

I'm sure the NBA will review the tapes and keep a closer eye on Bowen. Whistles will blow much quicker on him now.

I think VInce Carter's reputation of being the biggest crybaby in the league will supercede any suspicions of Bowen playing dirty. Bowen already has a rep of being the tightest perimeter defender in the league. The refs expect him to play tight D.

maxpower

02-12-2005, 11:42 AM

I saw Bowens leg come forward first then Carter's.

And I saw on replay Bowen head butt Carter first, the refs missed it, then Carter retaliated with a head butt the refs saw that and thats how he got his first technical.

They both got technicals.

The guys that are saying Bowen's defense of carter's shot was cheap are insane. How many times have you seen a defender lunge out at a guy taking a 3 and following through the shooter's body. Of course they call a foul but no one calls those plays dirty. The defender is attempting to contest the shot..unfortunately they have no time to adjust their path and their momentum just happens to take them into the shooter.
Similarly, Bowen had to do the same due to his anticipation of carter's drive he was leaning back you add to that carter's brush off with his off hand and he sends Bowen stumbling back half a step. Bowen recovers and attempts to challenge carter's jump shot. If Bowen wanted to he could have lunged straight into carter's body. He did not he landed right besides carter. You can plainly see carter stiffen his leg around Bowen(considering carter was in the air, any contact whatsoever would have sent carter laterally, that did not happen, carter is a bad actor). carter loses his balance and instead of bringing his leg down he keeps it wrapped around Bowen and overexagerates his fall.

p.s. how many people here stated they have not seen the game or plays...I'm sure the mensa's posting on the general boards did not as well.

2centsworth

02-12-2005, 11:48 AM

I'm sure the NBA will review the tapes and keep a closer eye on Bowen. Whistles will blow much quicker on him now.

Good, the attention he got last year made him play better.

Vince copped out when he knew he was going to have to perform in the clutch. He was going to do anything to get out of that situation. Similar to the Mike Tyson move against holyfield. Now Vince has an excuse and didn't take the chance of looking like a 4th qtr choker like we all know he is.

kskonn

02-12-2005, 11:53 AM

Yea i do think that Bowen was trying to get into vince's head with the head butt, however Bowen has always messed with players that talk trash and whine about him. He did that with Ray as well, or does nobody remember the great tempered Ray Allen trying to chase Bowen down last year. these guys are superstars and need to learn to keep there composure like superstars. I don't recall seeing Lebron loosing his cool against Bruce, or I really don't even recall Koby losing his cool. I remember Koby t taking shots back at Bowen but hey that is part of the game, but I do not remember him complaining and whining. If he did let me know.

Kori Ellis

02-12-2005, 12:05 PM

Bowen guards with all his limbs. He gets his feet in position to where his opponent has to adjust themselves. It's part of the game. It's part of being a good defender. Call it dirty all you want; I call it crafty :smokin

CHAMPS AGAIN

02-12-2005, 12:08 PM

Bowen clearly moved into Carter when he shot the ball. How many times do you see Tim's defender go underneath him unintentionally? Never.

It wasn't a coincidence that Bowen somehow ended underneath or wrapped up in Carter on the jumpshot.

Like I said, Bowen won the mental game. But he clearly fouled Carter at least 3 times in 5 seconds.

I see it all the time DUNCAN getting foul 3 or more times almost every time he touches the ball.Carter was having a great game and really enjoy watching him play,but it was his fault he got thrown out of the game,but BOWEN gets the blamed See how the NBA refs. respond on Sundays game against BOWEN if he gets 2 quick fouls in the first 5 minutes of the game.

2centsworth

02-12-2005, 12:13 PM

I see it all the time DUNCAN getting foul 3 or more times almost every time he touches the ball.Carter was having a great game and really enjoy watching him play,but it was his fault he got thrown out of the game,but BOWEN gets the blamed See how the NBA refs. respond on Sundays game against BOWEN if he gets 2 quick fouls in the first 5 minutes of the game.

Bowen gets the blame for how Vince reacts? What kinda twisted thinking is that.

ShoogarBear

02-12-2005, 12:14 PM

kskonn

02-12-2005, 12:19 PM

I like Bowen, but the truth is he does some questionable stuff.

I hope everyone in here defending him realizes that you have just forfeited your right to say anything the first time someone undercuts Tony or Manu.

manu has been undercut number of times and I don't remember this big of a reaction. All of that is just part of the game. and yea bowen does do some questionable stuff, but at the end of the day you have to ask, "does he help the team win games?" and despite what you think about that play it was a turning point in the game. Most of his other questionable stuff has come back to help the spurs win.

picnroll

02-12-2005, 12:22 PM

2centsworth

02-12-2005, 12:23 PM

I like Bowen, but the truth is he does some questionable stuff.

I hope everyone in here defending him realizes that you have just forfeited your right to say anything the first time someone undercuts Tony or Manu.

nonsense, bruce has played tough d for years and only one player has ever accused bruce of undercutting. The only other player to complain about bruce complained that bruce was fucking him up.

BTW, no coincidence that the vince is involved. His reputation is being a fucking pussy.

T Park

02-12-2005, 12:24 PM

I hope everyone in here defending him realizes that you have just forfeited your right to say anything the first time someone undercuts Tony or Manu.

SHow me where Bowen is undercutting Carter, and Ill agree. Till then, I have to respectfully say your way off.

Also, Manu gets undercut all the freakin time, and you dont hear nothing.

You NEVER hear Manu bitch.

Why? Cause hes got a pair, unlike Vinchelle.

kskonn

02-12-2005, 12:29 PM

SHow me where Bowen is undercutting Carter, and Ill agree. Till then, I have to respectfully say your way off.

Also, Manu gets undercut all the freakin time, and you dont hear nothing.

You NEVER hear Manu bitch.

Why? Cause hes got a pair, unlike Vinchelle.

T Park, I totally agree. Tony and manu always get fouled hard, including being undercut. The exact quote from Pop was " If you are going to go inside the lane and play like those two do, you have to expect to get knocked down a few times." And you never see them go after the player that did it, they get up and go play defense and stay in the game, because that is how you help your team win games

picnroll

02-12-2005, 12:33 PM

Does Vince still go in the lane?

kskonn

02-12-2005, 12:40 PM

when no one is in their to defend him.

picnroll

02-12-2005, 12:43 PM

Oh yeah. For those awesome uncontested dunks.

boutons

02-12-2005, 12:46 PM

"Does Vince still go in the lane?"

yes, he does, down the lane and down the sides of the lane, the baselines, etc. Like Ray Allen, Vince is more than just a jump shooter.

picnroll

02-12-2005, 12:52 PM

Seems like John Thompson just did an interview with Vince asking him why he's just become a perimeter jumpshooter and doesn't drive much anymore like a man and Pussy just grinned and shrugged.

Useruser666

02-12-2005, 12:56 PM

"Does Vince still go in the lane?"

yes, he does, down the lane and down the sides of the lane, the baselines, etc. Like Ray Allen, Vince is more than just a jump shooter.

:lmao Yep they are also pussies. Even lord Kobe has not cried about Bowen.

boutons

02-12-2005, 12:57 PM

Vince may be driving less, but he still drives (can't anybody find a vince carter shot chart so we have the facts?).

All this week they showed Vince's 360* layup down the paint, in traffic, vs Lakers.

picnroll

02-12-2005, 01:07 PM

vs Lakers. You have to be kidding. Was a Laker in the paint?

Useruser666

02-12-2005, 01:33 PM

Vince's shot chart vs. the Spurs last night.

http://img120.exs.cx/img120/1224/vinceshotchart8gm.jpg

T Park

02-12-2005, 01:43 PM

I didnt see the game, but if he is makin those outside shots, with a guy in his face.

There is nothin you can do.

That simple.

boutons

02-12-2005, 01:54 PM

"There is nothin you can do"

Exactly, and Pop has said as much.

Ray Allen did the same last night @PHX in the 4th.

13-ppg Miles did it to the Spurs @POR with 17 in the 4th.

In spring 03, Allan Houston/NYK did it to the SPAM Championship Spurs @SBC.

If Carter had stayed in the game like a man, got his 55, or 60, points, the Spurs would have a 2-game losing streak against EC dreck.

T Park

02-12-2005, 02:04 PM

And the 2 game losing streak wouldve been one you chalk up to injuries.

The team is getting its November injuries in February.

boutons

02-12-2005, 02:26 PM

WTF?

What Spur was injured last night (in a way that showed up in the stats)?

Without Duncan, the super-deep #1 Spurs can't beat the super-shallow, 9-games-back, front-court-less, defense-less Wiz without their Hughes? GMAFB

T Park

02-12-2005, 02:42 PM

Gee Horry is injured. Nesterovic is still hurt.

Nah they dont have anymore injuries.

Christ.

rr2418

02-12-2005, 02:47 PM

For all you people who think BB undercut VC, tell me, how do you contest a shot and at the same time keep your momentum from going towards the shooter? Especially in the heat of the game! If anything, the two just got tangled up. VC was probably upset b/c BB was turning up his D. BTW, is VC worthy of being in the all-star game? NOPE!! An all-star is a player who excels in their sport and has the drive to win games, no matter how tough the situation!

sickdsm

02-12-2005, 03:09 PM

I'm just wondering how everyones acting like Bowen shut him down all night and Vince was frustrated? Sounded like he was going off last night. Whatever happaned happaned, but when it also happaned last year to the same players, he should be aware of that. An AP writer wrote this.

Carter, whose season was nearly ended last year when Bowen undercut him and caused an ankle injury, was visibly annoyed.

So they seem to think last year it was an undercut. Even more confusing is this.

`I don't know what to say. I felt like he tried to trip me,'' said Bowen, one of the NBA's top defenders. ``That's how I feel. I haven't seen the replay but that's what I felt.''

So now Bruce is complaining that Vince tripped him?

If any one of Bowen's opponent said that he would be labaled soft, pussy, bitch, etc......

MannyIsGod

02-12-2005, 03:10 PM

Anyone have any links to any unbiased criticism of Bowen?

rr2418

02-12-2005, 05:06 PM

[QUOTE=sickdsm]I'm just wondering how everyones acting like Bowen shut him down all night and Vince was frustrated? Sounded like he was going off last night

Indeed he was!! But! BB seemed like he was stepping up his defense on VC. Why BB didn't play tougher D on him earlier? Hmm, I don't know! To me VC is just one of many players who have that "gangsta attitude", and think they can't be touched. :rolleyes BB was doing his job, and did it well. Did he shut down VC? NO! A good defensive player will have off days just like any other player. But when it counted, BB was there to get under his skin, and it worked!

texbumTHElife

02-12-2005, 05:32 PM

I love how everyone is spinning it as if we had no chance in the game when this foul happend. If I am not mistaken werent we only down by 5 at that point? Hadnt we already put forth a huge rally? Wasnt that just a desperation 3 by Vince Carter trying to cling to whatever momentum the Nets might have had?

It was a foul, plain and simple. It wasnt however "dirty" in the least and did not merit the reaction it is getting.

I think its interesting that the only people you hear crying about Bowen are all notoriouse for being whiners, with the exception of maybe Finley. Allen, Kobe and Vince all have reputations of crying to the referees too much.

IMO this whole ordeal is a joke and I hope Bruce doesnt change what he does at all.

sickdsm

02-12-2005, 05:40 PM

Anyone want to comment of the double standard about Bowen saying he tripped him?

boutons

02-12-2005, 05:46 PM

"we already put forth a huge rally?"

8 - 1 Spurs run to start the 4th until Carter quit playing ball, moving from -12 to -5.

texbumTHElife

02-12-2005, 05:50 PM

"we already put forth a huge rally?"

8 - 1 Spurs run to start the 4th until Carter quit playing ball, moving from -12 to -5.

So in other words we went from not even being in the game to having a serious chance to get bck to Spurs ball?

FromWayDowntown

02-12-2005, 06:19 PM

Anyone want to comment of the double standard about Bowen saying he tripped him?

How is that a "double standard"? It's Bowen telling his side of the story. I don't know that I agree with Bruce, necessarily, but I can see where he's coming from. In the moment, it was difficult to see who initiated the contact. Carter obviously sees the situation differently than Bowen, as do many others, but that there are 2 different takes on what happened does not constitute a "double standard."

I don't think Bruce is an angelic figure here, but I also would disagree with anyone who would call the dude dirty. He's a tough defender and tough defenders will end up in scraps from time-to-time. It comes with the territory.

CHAMPS AGAIN

02-13-2005, 12:30 PM

If KOBE does not have a problem with BOWEN play. I never heard Kobe complain about BOWEN, who gives a rat ass what carter,allen or finley have to say or any other non-SPURS fan thinks.

sickdsm

02-13-2005, 12:41 PM

The double standard isn't about Bruce, its about Spurs fans. Bruce is just being Bruce by saying he thinks Vince tripped him, how, i don't know. But Vince, Ray, etc... every time anyone mentions ANYTHING accusational, there a bitch, pussy, whiner, etc.... label tagged on.

Karl Malone and Stockton for years have been tough defenders, for years they've also been known as cheap, even dirty. I don't think Bruce is that bad but if the controversy keeps following it will.