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Nbadan
02-14-2005, 03:11 AM
With the army desperate for recruits, should college students be packing their bags for Canada?
By TIM DICKINSON


Uncle Sam wants you. He needs you. He'll bribe you to sign up. He'll strong-arm you to re-enlist. And if that's not enough, he's got a plan to draft you.
In the three decades since the Vietnam War, the "all-volunteer Army" has become a bedrock principle of the American military. "It's a magnificent force," Vice President Dick Cheney declared during the election campaign last fall, "because those serving are ones who signed up to serve." But with the Army and Marines perilously overextended by the war in Iraq, that volunteer foundation is starting to crack. The "weekend warriors" of the Army Reserve and the National Guard now make up almost half the fighting force on the front lines, and young officers in the Reserve are retiring in droves. The Pentagon, which can barely attract enough recruits to maintain current troop levels, has involuntarily extended the enlistments of as many as 100,000 soldiers. Desperate for troops, the Army has lowered its standards to let in twenty-five percent more high school dropouts, and the Marines are now offering as much as $30,000 to anyone who re-enlists. To understand the scope of the crisis, consider this: The United States is pouring nearly as much money into incentives for new recruits -- almost $300 million -- as it is into international tsunami relief.

"The Army's maxed out here," says retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, who served as Air Force chief of staff under the first President Bush. "The Defense Department and the president seem to be still operating off the rosy scenario that this will be over soon, that this pain is temporary and therefore we'll just grit our teeth, hunker down and get out on the other side of this. That's a bad assumption." The Bush administration has sworn up and down that it will never reinstate a draft. During the campaign last year, the president dismissed the idea as nothing more than "rumors on the Internets" and declared, "We're not going to have a draft -- period." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in an Op-Ed blaming "conspiracy mongers" for "attempting to scare and mislead young Americans," insisted that "the idea of reinstating the draft has never been debated, endorsed, discussed, theorized, pondered or even whispered by anyone in the Bush administration."

That assertion is demonstrably false. According to an internal Selective Service memo made public under the Freedom of Information Act, the agency's acting director met with two of Rumsfeld's undersecretaries in February 2003 precisely to debate, discuss and ponder a return to the draft. The memo duly notes the administration's aversion to a draft but adds, "Defense manpower officials concede there are critical shortages of military personnel with certain special skills, such as medical personnel, linguists, computer network engineers, etc." The potentially prohibitive cost of "attracting and retaining such personnel for military service," the memo adds, has led "some officials to conclude that, while a conventional draft may never be needed, a draft of men and women possessing these critical skills may be warranted in a future crisis." This new draft, it suggests, could be invoked to meet the needs of both the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security.

The memo then proposes, in detail, that the Selective Service be "re-engineered" to cover all Americans -- "men and (for the first time) women" -- ages eighteen to thirty-four. In addition to name, date of birth and Social Security number, young adults would have to provide the agency with details of their specialized skills on an ongoing basis until they passed out of draft jeopardy at age thirty-five. Testifying before Congress two weeks after the meeting, acting director of Selective Service Lewis Brodsky acknowledged that "consultations with senior Defense manpower officials" have spurred the agency to shift its preparations away from a full-scale, Vietnam-style draft of untrained men "to a draft of smaller numbers of critical-skills personnel."

Richard Flahavan, spokesman for Selective Service, tells Rolling Stone that preparing for a skills-based draft is "in fact what we have been doing." For starters, the agency has updated a plan to draft nurses and doctors. But that's not all. "Our thinking was that if we could run a health-care draft in the future," Flahavan says, "then with some very slight tinkering we could change that skill to plumbers or linguists or electrical engineers or whatever the military was short." In other words, if Uncle Sam decides he needs people with your skills, Selective Service has the means to draft you -- and quick.

But experts on military manpower say the focus on drafting personnel with special skills misses the larger point. The Army needs more soldiers, not just more doctors and linguists. "What you've got now is a real shortage of grunts -- guys who can actually carry bayonets," says McPeak. A wholesale draft may be necessary, he adds, "to deal with the situation we've got ourselves into. We've got to have a bigger Army."

Michael O'Hanlon, a military-manpower scholar at the Brookings Institute, believes a return to a full-blown draft will become "unavoidable" if the United States is forced into another war. "Let's say North Korea strikes a deal with Al Qaeda to sell them a nuclear weapon or something," he says. "I frankly don't see how you could fight two wars at the same time with the all-volunteer approach." If a second Korean War should break out, the United States has reportedly committed to deploying a force of nearly 700,000 to defend South Korea -- almost half of America's entire military.

The politics of the draft are radioactive: Polls show that less than twenty percent of Americans favor forced military service. But conscription has some unlikely champions, including veterans and critics of the administration who are opposed to Bush's war in Iraq. Reinstating the draft, they say, would force every level of society to participate in military service, rather than placing a disproportionate burden on minorities and the working class. African-Americans, who make up roughly thirteen percent of the civilian population, account for twenty-two percent of the armed forces. And the Defense Department acknowledges that recruits are drawn "primarily from families in the middle and lower-middle socioeconomic strata."

A societywide draft would also make it more difficult for politicians to commit troops to battle without popular approval. "The folks making the decisions are committing other people's lives to a war effort that they're not making any sacrifices for," says Charles Sheehan-Miles, who fought in the first Gulf War and now serves as director of Veterans for Common Sense. Under the current all-volunteer system, fewer than a dozen members of Congress have children in the military.

Charlie Moskos, a professor of military sociology at Northwestern University, says the volunteer system also limits the political fallout of unpopular wars. "Without a draft, there's really no antiwar movement," Moskos says. Nearly sixty percent of Americans believe the war in Iraq was a mistake, he notes, but they have no immediate self-interest in taking to the streets because "we're willing to pay people to die for us. It doesn't reflect very well on the character of our society."

Even military recruiters agree that the only way to persuade average Americans to make long-term sacrifices in war is for the children of the elite to put their lives on the line. In a recent meeting with military recruiters, Moskos discussed the crisis in enlistment. "I asked them would they prefer to have their advertising budget tripled or have Jenna Bush join the Army," he says. "They unanimously chose the Jenna option."

One of the few politicians willing to openly advocate a return to the draft is Rep. Charles Rangel, a Democrat from New York, who argues that the current system places an immoral burden on America's underprivileged. "It shouldn't be just the poor and the working poor who find their way into harm's way," he says. In the days leading up to the Iraq war, Rangel introduced a bill to reinstate the draft -- with absolutely no deferments. "If the kids and grandkids of the president and the Cabinet and the Pentagon were vulnerable to going to Iraq, we never would have gone -- no question in my mind," he says. "The closer this thing comes home to Americans, the quicker we'll be out of Iraq."

But instead of exploring how to share the burden more fairly, the military is cooking up new ways to take advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Rangel says military recruiters have confided in him that they're targeting inner cities and rural areas with high unemployment. In December, the National Guard nearly doubled its enlistment bonus to $10,000, and the Army is trying to attract urban youth with a marketing campaign called "Taking It to the Streets," which features a pimped-out yellow Hummer and a basketball exhibition replete with free throwback jerseys. President Bush has also signed an executive order allowing legal immigrants to apply for citizenship immediately -- rather than wait five years -- if they volunteer for active duty.

"It's so completely unethical and immoral to induce people that have limited education and limited job ability to have to put themselves in harm's way for ten, twenty or thirty thousand dollars," Rangel says. "Just how broke do you have to be to take advantage of these incentives?" Seducing soldiers with cold cash also unnerves military commanders. "We must consider the point at which we confuse 'volunteer to become an American soldier' with 'mercenary,' " Lt. Gen. James Helmly, the commander of the Army Reserve, wrote in a memo to senior Army leadership in December.

The Reserve, Helmly warns, "is rapidly degenerating into a broken force." The Army National Guard is also in trouble: It missed its recruitment goals of 56,000 by more than 5,000 in fiscal year 2004 and is already 2,000 soldiers short in fiscal 2005. To keep enough boots on the ground, the Pentagon has stopped asking volunteer soldiers to extend their service -- and started demanding it. Using a little-known provision called "stop loss," the military is forcing reservists and guardsmen to remain on active duty indefinitely. "This is an 'all-volunteer Army' with footnotes," says McPeak. "And it's the footnotes that are being held in Iraq against their wishes. If that's not a back-door draft, tell me what is."

David Qualls, who joined the Arkansas National Guard for a year, is one of 40,000 troops in Iraq who have been informed that their enlistment has been extended until December 24th, 2031. "I've served five months past my one-year obligation," says Qualls, the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging the military with breach of contract. "It's time to let me go back to my life. It's a question of fairness, and not only for myself. This is for the thousands of other people that are involuntarily extended in Iraq. Let us go home."

The Army insists that most "stop-lossed" soldiers will be held on the front lines for no longer than eighteen months. But Jules Lobel, an attorney with the Center for Constitutional Rights who is representing eight National Guardsmen in a lawsuit challenging the extensions, says the 2031 date is being used to strong-arm volunteers into re-enlisting. According to Lobel, the military is telling soldiers, "We're giving you a chance to voluntarily re-enlist -- and if you don't do it, we'll screw you. And the first way we'll screw you is to put you in until 2031."

But threatening volunteers, military experts warn, could be the quickest way to ensure a return to the draft. According to O'Hanlon at the Brookings Institute, such "callousness" may make it impossible to recruit new soldiers -- no matter how much money you throw at them. And if bigger sign-up bonuses and more aggressive recruitment tactics don't do the trick, says Helmly of the Army Reserve, it could "force the nation into an argument" about reinstating the draft.

In the end, it may simply come down to a matter of math. In January, Bush told America's soldiers that "much more will be asked of you" in his second term, even as he openly threatened Iran with military action. Another war, critics warn, would push the all-volunteer force to its breaking point. "This damn thing is just an explosion that's about to happen," says Rangel. Bush officials "can say all they want that they don't want the draft, but there's not going to be that many more buttons to push."

Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6862691?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7&rnd=1106949643712&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.872)

Useruser666
02-14-2005, 08:55 AM
No Dan, but you should.

Hook Dem
02-14-2005, 09:45 AM
You are persistent aren't you Dan?

Clandestino
02-14-2005, 10:07 AM
Most other countries have mandatory military service already.

Clandestino
02-14-2005, 10:11 AM
the army has always given bonuses... they are increasing now because inflation. they had already gone up a lot before the iraq war. i am going through school completely free because of the army. i even get grants and scholarships... college has been free to me! ah, it's great!

JoeChalupa
02-14-2005, 11:59 AM
Free college is reason enough. The pay may not be great but as a single man or woman you get great physical training, a job, medical care, housing and 3 squares a day.
I wish they were handing out bonuses back in my day.

Not bad..not bad at all.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-14-2005, 01:47 PM
LOL, good old Dan holding on to his draft dream. You'll get what you want Dan, the day that a WMD goes up in the continental US :(

desflood
02-14-2005, 05:30 PM
The draft will never come back. No politician would ever really push to bring it back, because it is political suicide.

NameDropper
02-14-2005, 06:24 PM
No Draft. No Way, No How.

Nbadan
02-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Most other countries have mandatory military service already.

So is this were we are headed? Do you advocate a two year National Service commitment? That's what I'm reading.

Nbadan
02-14-2005, 11:50 PM
the army has always given bonuses... they are increasing now because inflation. they had already gone up a lot before the iraq war. i am going through school completely free because of the army. i even get grants and scholarships... college has been free to me! ah, it's great!

That's great that you took advantage of the military to get a education, but what about the thousands of GI's stuck in Iraq because of stop-loss until 2031, unless they 'voluntarily' re-up that is?

What about the thousands of week-end warriors who are leaving the service by the droves once their commitment is over, and those left behind having to survive, to sacrafice their families financial well-being, because this administration underestimated, misjudged, this fucked-up war?

Fuck them right? You got yours.

Clandestino
02-14-2005, 11:58 PM
So is this were we are headed? Do you advocate a two year National Service commitment? That's what I'm reading.

i think it would be good, but i don't see it happening.. also, most of the countries that have a mandatory service offer 2 choices: 10-13 months of military service or 18months of community service...

Clandestino
02-15-2005, 12:03 AM
That's great that you took advantage of the military to get a education, but what about the thousands of GI's stuck in Iraq because of stop-loss until 2031, unless they 'voluntarily' re-up that is?

What about the thousands of week-end warriors who are leaving the service by the droves once their commitment is over, and those left behind having to survive, to sacrafice their families financial well-being, because this administration underestimated, misjudged, this fucked-up war?

Fuck them right? You got yours.

here you go again.. not understanding the military... when you are stop lossed it is only for short periods of time.. they just add a date far into the future for ease of record keeping purposes... if they put short times as your ets and it was changed then you may not get paid some months and it'd be way worse off...

no one said they had to be lifers when they joined... if a reservist serves his 8 years and gets out.. that is perfectly fine.. he did his part...

also, many reservists never thought they would have to serve... they wanted free handouts from the government and never wanted to do anything in return.. these deployments show them that nothing is free...

N.Y. Johnny
02-15-2005, 12:05 AM
i think it would be good, but i don't see it happening.. also, most of the countries that have a mandatory service offer 2 choices: 10-13 months of military service or 18months of community service...



Damn Clan, I think i'd take the 10-13 Months of Military Service before Community Service :lol

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-15-2005, 12:09 AM
Most of your "stop lossers" Dan still have military commitments, so it's not like we're screwing them over.

When you sign a military contract, you commit to eight years of military service. In times of peace, it's usually a 4 year commitment with 4 years on the inactive reserves, but in times of war you'll see troops serving more than 4 years active.

You and your backdoor draft. About the only backdoor draft you're getting is the one Duff's giving you every Saturday night.

Nbadan
02-15-2005, 12:13 AM
Damn Clan, I think i'd take the 10-13 Months of Military Service before Community Service :lol

Hummm....(Wondering how many people here would voluntarily sacrafice their children for the war in Iraq?)

Nbadan
02-15-2005, 12:22 AM
Most of your "stop lossers" Dan still have military commitments, so it's not like we're screwing them over.

Common...the National Guard? By 'commitment' I'm sure most thought when they signed that they would be filling sand-bags during a flood, or at worst, reacting to acts of domestic terror or civil disobidience, but humping it in Iraq for more than a year, most of the time for two years of active duty? So much for the mokier 'weekend warrior'. It's not what these guys signed up for, and its ripping the reserves and the National Guard forces apart.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-15-2005, 12:33 AM
You're a retard. Anytime you sign up for a military service, if there is a war you're going to be there fighting it.

It's in black and white on the damn contract. Eight year commitment. Quit your fucking whining.

You're right, most of them thought they could get an education paid for courtesy Uncle Sam, and go do a little PT from time to time, not fight a war.

But like I said, you're signing a military contract, and if the military is in a fight you're gonna be helping. It's not a big shocker, but I guess clowns like you have to have something to bitch about.

Nbadan
02-15-2005, 12:41 AM
But like I said, you're signing a military contract, and if the military is in a fight you're gonna be helping. It's not a big shocker, but I guess clowns like you have to have something to bitch about.

I would say the people doing the most bitching are those troops leaving the service in the fastest time-line possible. I could give a fuck if you believe what I am saying, but the General in charge of the N.G. himself said that his force is collapsing. So stay in your nice, comforting self-denial, and I'll look forward to seeing you on CNN ducking bullets on the streets of Syria or Iran when the NeoCons draft your ass for their next war.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-15-2005, 12:56 AM
LOL, there won't be a draft. I feel bad for people as dumb as you.

I just wanna know if you just got dropped on your head as a baby or you took one too many hard hits out on the football field, which is it?

Guru of Nothing
02-15-2005, 01:04 AM
When you sign a military contract, you commit to eight years of military service. In times of peace, it's usually a 4 year commitment with 4 years on the inactive reserves, but in times of war you'll see troops serving more than 4 years active.

You and your backdoor draft.

Actually, your first paragraph depicted a backdoor draft to a tee.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-15-2005, 01:40 AM
How is it backdoor? It's black and white in the contract. You'll be active for at least 4 years, possibly as many as eight.

Fuck, the US has been doing this for the last 40 years, it was okay when Democratic presidents and administrations used it, but suddenly Bush is the devil.

Knock off the hypocrisy bullshit.

Drachen
02-15-2005, 03:53 AM
the army has always given bonuses... they are increasing now because inflation. they had already gone up a lot before the iraq war. i am going through school completely free because of the army. i even get grants and scholarships... college has been free to me! ah, it's great!

Sorry man, hate to admit it, but I tried to join the armed services 3 years ago, they turned me down for not one, but two things. They now have my old recruiter calling me back to try to get me to enlist. Yes I got a 99 on the asfab (spelling?) but I have a scar on my cornea over my left pupil and I still have the same shit on my record as I had 3 years ago (DWI). So why are they all of a sudden interested in me?? Answer, they are getting desperate. I was previously undesirable, now they are offering more money than before. (Inflation will not make 18k 3 years ago into 27k now)

Clandestino
02-15-2005, 08:58 AM
Common...the National Guard? By 'commitment' I'm sure most thought when they signed that they would be filling sand-bags during a flood, or at worst, reacting to acts of domestic terror or civil disobidience, but humping it in Iraq for more than a year, most of the time for two years of active duty? So much for the mokier 'weekend warrior'. It's not what these guys signed up for, and its ripping the reserves and the National Guard forces apart.

so, the national guardsmen that is trained to be an arabic linguist thinks he is going to just fill sandbags??? LOL!!! whatever... you have no clue about anything.

Clandestino
02-15-2005, 08:59 AM
Actually, your first paragraph depicted a backdoor draft to a tee.

come on guru.. it is not.. they tell you, "you're signed up for 8 years, if things go well, you will only have to serve 4 of it."

Clandestino
02-15-2005, 09:02 AM
Sorry man, hate to admit it, but I tried to join the armed services 3 years ago, they turned me down for not one, but two things. They now have my old recruiter calling me back to try to get me to enlist. Yes I got a 99 on the asfab (spelling?) but I have a scar on my cornea over my left pupil and I still have the same shit on my record as I had 3 years ago (DWI). So why are they all of a sudden interested in me?? Answer, they are getting desperate. I was previously undesirable, now they are offering more money than before. (Inflation will not make 18k 3 years ago into 27k now)

for one the DWI was 3 years ago... the armyknows people make mistakes and if you haven't done it again, maybe they assume you're reformed. also, have you ever used drugs or have any other medical problems. how much do you weigh. a 99 ASVAB is a perfect score, but are we really to believe you scored a 99 on a test you don't even know the name of?

Anyway, are you joining now?

The Big Chicken
02-15-2005, 12:09 PM
Charlie Moskos is a really good author on this issue. I read an article of his that he wrot with Paul Glastris, Now do you believe we need a draft, sorry I don't have the link, but if you are interested in this topic, read it. In my opinion it is really good. It doesn't make draft so scary any more.

Spurminator
02-15-2005, 12:13 PM
Rolling Stone is to Politics as Fox News is to Music.

The Big Chicken
02-15-2005, 01:43 PM
I wasn't referring to the Rolling Stone

Spurminator
02-15-2005, 01:55 PM
I wasn't referring to your post.

The Big Chicken
02-15-2005, 04:10 PM
Sorry. My mistake

Drachen
02-17-2005, 02:37 AM
I swear to you I scored a 99 on it. Ive never written it out, I just know how it's pronounced. I never took the time find out what it stands for either. To answer your other questions.
Drugs: dabbled long ago with pot, nothing on record.
Other Medical Problems: No
Am I joining: No, I dont agree with the current administrations foreign policy and dont want to have to be the enforcer of its lunacy.

Clandestino
02-17-2005, 10:09 AM
I swear to you I scored a 99 on it. Ive never written it out, I just know how it's pronounced. I never took the time find out what it stands for either. To answer your other questions.
Drugs: dabbled long ago with pot, nothing on record.
Other Medical Problems: No
Am I joining: No, I dont agree with the current administrations foreign policy and dont want to have to be the enforcer of its lunacy.

what MOS were you going for? or did it not get that far?

Nbadan
02-18-2005, 01:48 AM
"We have 12 divisions and 10 are locked down in Iraq, either coming or going," said Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del. "Our ability to have any flexibility with ground forces anywhere else is diminished. If we had to move into Iran, Syria, North Korea or anywhere else, we'd be in real difficulty."

In addition, he said, "we have absolutely spent, exhausted, and in some instances misled the National Guard and the reserves. I've been in Baghdad and Fallujah and I've spoken with them. When they enlisted in the Guard, they never anticipated being sent for two tours of duty in Iraq lasting a year or 18 months. We can't keep asking citizen soldiers to do that."

In a highly critical memo on the use of Reservists, Lt. Gen. James Helmly said virtually the same thing late last year. Helmly, chief of the Army Reserve, said that "overuse" in Iraq and Afghanistan could result in a "broken force."

Delaware Online (http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2005/02/17expertsseemilit.html)

Useruser666
02-18-2005, 10:16 AM
So we don't have neough troops for Iran, Syria, or North Korea? Gee, that's probably because we have no intention of ever going there!

The point about Guardsmen and Reservists not expecting to serve in Iraq is a loaded question. Do you expect to die when you get into your car in the morning? No, of course not, but there is a chance that will happen. The Reserves and Guard are not organizations to join if you don't want to take the risk of going to war.

Clandestino
02-18-2005, 10:35 AM
biden is fucking stupid... and so are the guardsmen and reservists he asked... when you sign up for the military in any capacity you better expect to be ready to fight if called up... a reservist/guardsmen better know that when the government spends thousands of dollars training him it is not to fill sandbags during floods...

RobinsontoDuncan
02-18-2005, 07:47 PM
If there is a draft AHF what would you do? I mean you have said there absolutly wont be one, if there is then what? A lot of ass kissing I hope.

MannyIsGod
02-18-2005, 08:11 PM
I think mandatory service is a great thing as long as there is a community service option. I'd gladly have given 2 years of my life doing community type work for a GI bill equivlant.

I took the ASVAB back in HS and scored a 96, and dealth with recruiters calling for years. I almost joined a few times, most recently 2 years ago, but decided it just wasn't what I needed to do with my life.

Guru of Nothing
02-18-2005, 11:37 PM
I think mandatory service is a great thing as long as there is a community service option. I'd gladly have given 2 years of my life doing community type work for a GI bill equivlant.

I took the ASVAB back in HS and scored a 96, and dealth with recruiters calling for years. I almost joined a few times, most recently 2 years ago, but decided it just wasn't what I needed to do with my life.

Try Googling on "The Hazlewood Act" Manny. You could go paint ships for 2 (or a few) years and get a FREE education at any state funded university in the state of Texas. You wouldn't have to kill or torture a soul.

I'm gonna bite my tongue here, but your community service vs. military service irks me a little because of its classist undertones - "let the bumpkins eat cake and defend my constitution, I'm just here to express myself."

Everyone should vote, but not everyone should serve - correct?

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 12:18 AM
Everyone should serve, in a certain way. I'm sorry, but I can't justify joining an institution which is being used in ways I find EXTREMELY hard to justify.

Hey, when those Canadians come over the border and we need people to help DEFEND this country, I'll sign up.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 12:21 AM
Simply put, I just dont' think the military is being used for National Defense. It's a shame we don't have Japan's constitution in this regard.

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 12:33 AM
Everyone should serve, in a certain way. I'm sorry, but I can't justify joining an institution which is being used in ways I find EXTREMELY hard to justify.


Pardon me while I take a moment to blame VOTERS for the misuse of the military.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 12:36 AM
Actually, I agree with that. I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I definetly believe that the people of this country have a huge slice of blame to take for that.

It's hard to maket his arguement and not sound like you aren't supporting the troops themselves, so I'll just leave it at that.

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 12:56 AM
Actually, I agree with that. I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I definetly believe that the people of this country have a huge slice of blame to take for that.

It's hard to maket his arguement and not sound like you aren't supporting the troops themselves, so I'll just leave it at that.

I don't think you are unsupportive of our troops Manny, I just think you disconnect yourself from them as fellow citizens.

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 01:00 AM
Hey, when those Canadians come over the border and we need people to help DEFEND this country, I'll sign up.

Kind of like, if my ONE vote mattered, I'd vote.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 01:07 AM
One can enact change through voting, but one can not enact change by joining our military.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 01:14 AM
I don't think you are unsupportive of our troops Manny, I just think you disconnect yourself from them as fellow citizens.

How so?

I don't believe that the majority of our military is driven to serve by a strong sense of patriotism. I believe that the stronger than usual patriotism they disply is as a result of serving not as a desire to serve.

I think many people are driven to serve because of economic reasons.

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 01:22 AM
I think many people are driven to serve because of economic reasons.

Hence, my use of the word "classist."

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 01:25 AM
One can enact change through voting, but one can not enact change by joining our military.

Unless you factor in that college education, that might otherwise be lost.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 01:33 AM
This reminds me to read Starship Troopers

One can also lap dance their way into a college education, but I don't advocate that either.

I'm curious, if the government offered a 2 year program where you served within the community in a non military fashion with the same benefits afforded to the military, what do you think would happen to our military?

3rdCoast
02-19-2005, 01:35 AM
I'm curious, what do you think would happen if our military was non existant?

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 01:40 AM
I'm curious, what do you think would happen if our military was non existant?

I guess we'd have to wait for Iraq to come liberate us?

Guru of Nothing
02-19-2005, 01:41 AM
if the government offered a 2 year program where you served within the community in a non military fashion with the same benefits afforded to the military, what do you think would happen to our military?

I don't know what would happen to the military, but I'd do my part to vote the politicians out of office who enacted such generous legislation.

atlfan25
02-19-2005, 01:46 AM
I guess we'd have to wait for Iraq to come liberate us?
I'm sure saddam would have loved to "liberate" the U.S.

3rdCoast
02-19-2005, 01:49 AM
god damnit. people need to open their eyes and see things for what they are. the military is what it is. it is a driving force that is here to protect us and keep us from ending up like the iraqis and shit. we are free because we faught for it in the past and won. and we are now trying to help other become free. the military is a god damn fine instition and service to each and everyone of us americans.

MannyIsGod
02-19-2005, 02:06 AM
and I now see my way out of this thread.

Clandestino
02-19-2005, 10:25 AM
This reminds me to read Starship Troopers

One can also lap dance their way into a college education, but I don't advocate that either.

I'm curious, if the government offered a 2 year program where you served within the community in a non military fashion with the same benefits afforded to the military, what do you think would happen to our military?

if you only serve 2 years in the military you don't get all the education benefits...

Useruser666
02-19-2005, 01:56 PM
Blame America!!! Blame America!!!

Nbadan
02-21-2005, 05:39 PM
First the guard and reserves, then the Marines, now the Army is falling short of recruitment goals...


The active-duty Army is in danger of failing to meet its recruiting goals, and is beginning to suffer from manpower strains like those that have dropped the National Guard and Reserves below full strength, according to Army figures and interviews with senior officers .

For the first time since 2001, the Army began the fiscal year in October with only 18.4 percent of the year's target of 80,000 active-duty recruits already in the pipeline. That amounts to less than half of last year's figure and falls well below the Army's goal of 25 percent.

Meanwhile, the Army is rushing incoming recruits into training as quickly as it can. Compared with last year, it has cut by 50 percent the average number of days between the time a recruit signs up and enters boot camp. It is adding more than 800 active-duty recruiters to the 5,201 who were on the job last year, as attracting each enlistee requires more effort and monetary incentives.

Driving the manpower crunch is the Army's goal of boosting the number of combat brigades needed to rotate into Iraq (news - web sites) and handle other global contingencies. Yet Army officials see worrisome signs that young American men and women -- and their parents -- are growing wary of military service, largely because of the Iraq conflict.

Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=1&u=/washpost/20050221/ts_washpost/a40469_2005feb20)

Useruser666
02-21-2005, 05:50 PM
Oops Dan, you left this part out from that article..... :lol


Army officials say the challenge is not yet a crisis. As of Jan. 31, the Army tallied 22,246 active-duty recruits for fiscal 2005, exceeding the year-to-date mission by more than 100.

Also, if you read the article, any worries to projected short falls are in part do to the fact that the army is getting larger.

Nbadan
02-21-2005, 06:06 PM
Actually, new recruit volunteer numbers have been down for some time, but fewer active divisions masked this short-fall..


Still, the recruiting difficulties reflect unprecedented demands on today's soldiers that are unlikely to let up soon. Never before has the all-volunteer Army deployed to war zones in such large numbers for multiple, yearlong tours. It is doing so with a total force cut by 300,000 troops -- from 28 active-duty and reserve divisions to 18 -- since the 1991 Persian Gulf War

This is just another step in the drip-drip-dripping away of the most professional fighting force in the world.

Useruser666
02-21-2005, 06:11 PM
28-18 is not real math Dan. Those 28 divisions may have had 5,000 people in each one and the remaining 18 may have 10,000 each. They did a lot of consolidating since then. The snippet I took was from your own article. It siple states they have exceeded their quota for the first month of the year. So either January is a peak month for recruits or there isn't as such a DRAMATIC problem as you seem to imply.

Nbadan
02-21-2005, 06:21 PM
28-18 is not real math Dan. Those 28 divisions may have had 5,000 people in each one and the remaining 18 may have 10,000 each.

As far as I know, a division has always been a division, about 10,000 soldiers. You chose one quote that supported your argument and completely ignored the rest of the article - nice Fox News reporting.


For the first time since 2001, the Army began the fiscal year in October with only 18.4 percent of the year's target of 80,000 active-duty recruits already in the pipeline. That amounts to less than half of last year's figure and falls well below the Army's goal of 25 percent.

Projections, it's all about projections. You must not be an analyst.

xrayzebra
02-21-2005, 07:32 PM
Hummm....(Wondering how many people here would voluntarily sacrafice their children for the war in Iraq?)


What a dumbass statement. But it is what I would expect of you.

Useruser666
02-21-2005, 09:34 PM
As far as I know, a division has always been a division, about 10,000 soldiers. You chose one quote that supported your argument and completely ignored the rest of the article - nice Fox News reporting.



Projections, it's all about projections. You must not be an analyst.

Uhhh....you are the one that chose to ignore the FACT that they are exceeding their goals for the first month of this year. You are the king of cutting and pasting your facts to prove the conspiracy of the moment.

Nbadan
02-25-2005, 05:29 PM
Plans for 'Alternative Service' to the coming military draft are being quietly put in place in churches...



Brethren Agree to Revive 'Alternative Service' Draft Programs

Leaders of the Church of the Brethren say they will follow through on a request from the Selective Service to have "alternative service" programs in place for conscientious objectors if a draft is reinstated.

As one of the historic "peace churches" that shun military service, Brethren officials were "cautious" after an unannounced visit by a draft official to a church center in Maryland last October. Officials were worried that the visit signaled that a draft may be at hand.

In follow-up meetings, draft officials urged the church to dust off long-standing "alternative service" programs that allow conscientious objectors to serve in two-year domestic service projects in lieu of military service.

In a meeting Dec. 10, the church's council voted to "maximize our efforts" on alternative service, as well as help "guide our youth in their choice of nonviolent service." Selective Service officials have insisted there are no plans to reinstate the draft, and said Alternative Service Director Cassandra Costley stopped by the Brethren Service Center simply because she was in the area.

Belief Net (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15893_1.html)

Stopped by the church just by chance huh, yeah right.

Useruser666
02-25-2005, 05:57 PM
That is a huge pile of doo Dan.