Can Duncan Really Not Warrant Mention as a Possible DPOY?

[FromWayDowntown]

These things don't usually get me too worked up, but I read ESPN's pre-season awards watch (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-081016) and noted that (not surprisingly, perhaps) Tim Duncan wasn't among the 5 players to be watched for Defensive Player of the Year. Having watched Bruce Bowen get screwed over for years, I think it would be all the more appalling to see Duncan retire without ever having won that award -- particularly after seeing Garnett get it last year.

I started looking at some numbers in an effort to validate my belief that Duncan has long-deserved DPOY and that he has simply been ignored by the voters for any number of reasons. Generally, Duncan is excluded from the conversation because: (1) he doesn't put up great defensive numbers, they say; and (2) his teammates are good defenders.

The first argument strikes me as being completely bogus. Among active players in the main defensive categories, Duncan is 6th in blocks per game (2.42) and 1st in rebounds per game (11.83). The rebounds per game aren't artificially inflated by offensive boards, since Duncan is 4th among active players in defensive rebounding percentage. And for stat geeks like me who don't look to more comprehensive metrics, Duncan is 1st among active players in Defensive Rating and 1st among active players in Defensive Win Shares.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, FWD -- those are career numbers and the award is an annual award. But in each of those categories, Duncan has spent every year of his career among the best players in the game.

If you exclude 04-05 (when he didn't play enough games to qualify in per game categories), these are Duncan's finishes in RPG and BPG:

RPG: 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 4th
BPG: 6th, 7th, 7th, 9th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 8th

Take into consideration that his minutes have been fairly low for the last few seasons, and his dominance becomes pretty evident. In fact, the metrics that normalize for minutes demonstrate that, I think -- these are Duncan's annual finishes in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares:

DR: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd
DWS: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 4th

Thus, while his career numbers are exceptional, his numbers are exceptional every single season -- no off-years.

Likewise, it hasn't mattered who Tim's teammates are, his teams have been the consistent dominant defensive force in this league during his career. Since Duncan entered the league the Spurs' worst finish in FG% Defense is 5th; their worst finish in PPG allowed is 3rd; and if you normalize those numbers for pace, their worst finish in Defensive Rating is 3rd. Here are what the Spurs' finishes are annually in those categories:

FG% D: 1st, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th (tie), 2nd (tie), 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
PPG D: 1st, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st (tie), 1st, 2nd, 1st, 3rd
Def. Rating: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd

Obviously, the numbers show that the Spurs have been great defensively over a very long period of time, and that the greatness on that end has been sustained. But over that stretch, there is only 1 on-court constant: Duncan. To that end, the NBA coaches have realized what the guy does, naming him 1st Team All-Defense in 8 of his 11 seasons and 2nd Team All-Defense in the other 3.

I guess my point in all of this rambling is that there's ABSOLUTELY no way that Duncan should be excluded from a list of DPOY candidates when those who are named are Kevin Garnett, Shane Battier, Marcus Camby, Josh Smith, and Ron Artest. I'm largely preaching to the choir on this one; and I'm sure I'll get considerable criticism from many of our friends who aren't big fans of the Spurs or Tim Duncan. I'll admit that I might be a year or two late with this, too. Still, it's curious to me that the media that votes on this award and decides every year who gets the buzz to win the award hasn't noticed just how good Duncan is defensively every year, despite consistently dominant numbers.

Maybe we should start a campaign . . . .

[T Park]

If he started popping his collar and talked about bringing uzis and glocks to a game then maybe he'd have a shot.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If he started popping his collar and talked about bringing uzis and glocks to a game then maybe he'd have a shot.

He could try but I think he'd start rattling off Halo weaponry. "I'm ready to go to war, dawg. Loading up my plasma rifle, my Needlers, gonna drop the bomb on them. Master Chief in da house!"

As for DPOY, I really just wish they'd let the coaches do the voting. With each passing season I find myself more and more exasperated with the media votes.

[ambchang]

I noticed the same from the article.

I could understand Garnett and to an extent Artest, but Battier hasn't even been remotely close to Bowen as a perimeter defender the last few years, Camby winning the DPoY two years ago certified the award as a stats award, and Josh Smith is the new Kirilenko.

Duncan is every bit as good a defensive player as those five, and I can understand him not winning the DPoY award, as people who voted has little to no understanding of defensive concepts in basketball, but to not even make the final list is just absurd.

[Anti.Hero]

If it weren't for the Spurs having a good shot at a ring every year, this American Idol league would get old really fast.

[T Park]

He could try but I think he'd start rattling off Halo weaponry. "I'm ready to go to war, dawg. Loading up my plasma rifle, my Needlers, gonna drop the bomb on them. Master Chief in da house!"

As for DPOY, I really just wish they'd let the coaches do the voting. With each passing season I find myself more and more exasperated with the media votes.

I could see someone saying, "What would you rather have the plasma or the needler" and he goes into a 30 minute dialogue on his experiences online and on the plane with different weaponry. He would geek it up no question :lol

[duncan228]

I'll admit that I might be a year or two late with this, too. .

You present a fantastic argument as always FWD. I also feel that it will be a crime if Duncan retires without a DPOY on his resume. But I think we are too late on this one now. His numbers validate the award in almost any given year, but knowing how the voting goes there's no way Duncan will show as flashily dominate as others may. His defense is like the rest of his game, it's not flashy enough to make those highlight reels. But it's a joy to watch and it wins Championships. I'll have to settle for more rings. :)

[FromWayDowntown]

You present a fantastic argument as always FWD. I also feel that it will be a crime if Duncan retires without a DPOY on his resume. But I think we are too late on this one now. His numbers validate the award in almost any given year, but knowing how the voting goes there's no way Duncan will show as flashily dominate as others may. His defense is like the rest of his game, it's not flashy enough to make those highlight reels. But it's a joy to watch and it wins Championships. I'll have to settle for more rings. :)

I think that's the thing that bothers me about it, though. Garnett's individual numbers last season were good, but not stellar -- 9.2 rpg, 1.3 bpg, 1.4 spg. Duncan's individual numbers (11.3 rpg, 1.9 bpg, .7 spg) were better. But for the first time in a long time, Garnett got the award not because he put up flashy numbers, but because he arguably made his team noticably better on the defensive end. Given that basis to give Garnett the award, it makes no sense to me to penalize Duncan just because his teams have been so good defensively for so long, while he's put up dominating numbers.

I guess it's just frustrating that the media love for KG will get him that award while the media indifference to Duncan makes him, essentially, an after-thought when it comes that award.

[Galileo]

Duncan is the best defensive player in the NBA and has been since he first stepped on the court in 1997. He is on the short list of best defensive players of all time. The only players as good as Duncan on D would be (maybe) Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon.

[duncan228]

I think that's the thing that bothers me about it, though. Garnett's individual numbers last season were good, but not stellar -- 9.2 rpg, 1.3 bpg, 1.4 spg. Duncan's individual numbers (11.3 rpg, 1.9 bpg, .7 spg) were better. But for the first time in a long time, Garnett got the award not because he put up flashy numbers, but because he arguably made his team noticably better on the defensive end. Given that basis to give Garnett the award, it makes no sense to me to penalize Duncan just because his teams have been so good defensively for so long, while he's put up dominating numbers.

I guess it's just frustrating that the media love for KG will get him that award while the media indifference to Duncan makes him, essentially, an after-thought when it comes that award.

Welcome to my world. :lol

The media indifference is hard to deal with, I still get aggravated with it after all these years. There's no logical reason for Duncan to be an after-thought with the talent he displays on the court year in and year out.

Duncan's preference to stay out of the spotlight and let his game speak for him doesn't help him get the media love a player like Garnett does. Duncan just doesn't provide the sound bites and the highlight reels others do. IMO his game does speak for him, and the numbers you so wonderfully presented should be more than enough for anyone to see he's deserved this award at least a couple of times over.

Duncan should have gotten the award at some point, he anchors the defense on this great defensive team, and he has for years.

[Ocotillo]

Duncan is the best defensive player in the NBA and has been since he first stepped on the court in 1997. He is on the short list of best defensive players of all time. The only players as good as Duncan on D would be (maybe) Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon.

I remember this other center by the name of Robinson who was a helluva defensive player.

[Oink Oink]

Marcus Camby:nope

[mrspurs]

What can ya say? Both Tim and Bruce are a combo of the best defenders the spurs have ever had. But we know they're better then the names mentioned and thats all that matters. And if the rings Timmy and Bruce dont prove it, and they dont seem to make much noise about it. Then its all media and stuff that people like duncan228 love to cheerlead about. hahahahaha.....

[TDMVPDPOY]

the year marcus camby won one, the year pacers/pistons brawls duncan shouldve won that also, and one of mutombos i believe.

[HarlemHeat37]

any knowledgeable basketball fan knows that Tim should have at least 2 DPOY awards..the award is a joke, and Marcus Camby winning one is a perfect example of that..

Duncan's probably the best defender of this generation, as proven by metric stats and defensive team stats, considering he's the anchor..Tim has been the constant with our many different players over the years..

Garnett completely deserved the award last year..but he DIDN'T win because of "his image"..he won it, because he got traded and because he got traded TO BOSTON..if Tim got traded, his defensive impact would be clear..if Tim got traded to a big market team, he would easily win the award too..it's not really Duncan's image, it's because of his team and city IMO..

[m33p0]

despite being a stellar defender, he (& bowen) hasn't won one... and never will.

[carina_gino20]

They should just let the coaches do all of the votings. DPoY, MVP, etc. It still doesn't make sense to me (other than its commercial value) why the league insists on involving the media when they have more competent judges.

[mystargtr34]

This has been my biggest problem for a long time also.

Before Duncan came to San Antonio, they hovered around the middle of the pack in defensive efficiency.

As soon as Duncan rocked up in 97, the Spurs have been in the top 3 in Defensive efficiency every single year. That was before Bowen turned up. Bruce is great in his own right, and he should have an award also, but Duncan is on the list of all time top defenders, with the likes of D-Rob, Hakeem and Bill Russell.

[ShoogarBear]

But KG is exciting!

[dbreiden83080]

But KG is exciting!

Yeah it is so thrilling to watch a guy brick 20 jumpers in a row, then beat your chest when one goes down

[dbreiden83080]

Yeah it is kind of annoying that Duncan is not likely to get DPOY. He has had one of the best careers on that end of the floor, of any big man ever in terms of all team selections. But if one day someone wants to bash him by saying he "Never won this award" it will annoy me because we know he should have. But that is what happens when the press votes for this shit. They are morons, they know nothing.

[Whisky Dog]

The Spurs wouldn't be the Spurs if they were getting all kinds of media recognition. They fly under the radar and are ignored by people who would love to see them disappear, but they've rattled off 4 titles in the face of that situation. Tim Duncan is the Robin Hood of basketball.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think the idea that bothers me isn't that the Spurs and Duncan aren't attention whores. Duncan was able to win consecutive MVP's despite the fact that he's not a media friendly guy. What bothers me, I think, is the willingness to credit Garnett's impact on the defensive end without numbers while continually refusing to do that for Duncan (or Bowen), who's been that sort of difference-maker for the entirety of his career. I suppose that the points aren't really separable -- Garnett gets that credit, I suppose, because those who decide those awards are enamored of him more than they are of Duncan. I guess, however, my ultimate bitch is that it's not just Garnett who gets more credit. To have a list alleging to be a list of the 5 most likely DPOY candidates and to exclude Duncan from that list while including Garnett is just asinine.

I'm inclined to use every weekly chat with Marc Stein, John Hollinger, Chad Ford . . . whomever . . . to ask why Duncan is never truly considered for that award, particularly given the fact that Garnett's exceptional year is about in line with Duncan's average year.

[Taking it to the Hole]

Sadly, I doubt Bowen or Duncan will ever win DPOY. That East Coast media pretty much decides who is going to win that award and they have never had much love for the Spurs, Duncan, or Bowen for that matter. If they do give them the award, they would have to put up unbelievable numbers where you couldn't deny them the award, but it probably will never happen.

[1Parker1]

I guess it's just frustrating that the media love for KG will get him that award while the media indifference to Duncan makes him, essentially, an after-thought when it comes that award.

:lol We are on the same page because this was exactly my first thought after I read that bogus article on ESPN. How can someone validate giving KG ANOTHER DPOY award, and not even mention Tim Duncan's name?

Media always votes on the flashy player who makes the biggest impact in that season on his team. They don't really look at stats, they look at player and team profiles. No one expected the Celtics to be as great defensively as they were last season. And of course the media isn't going to credit their outstanding defensive coach, they're going to point to the guy who has the biggest impact on court for them and give him that award.

Spurs will always be penalized in the eyes of these so called NBA Experts for being consistently great year after year. The impact of what guys like Bowen and Duncan do for their teams year in and year out is lost on many just because they instead see players making unexpected teams great. This is why you hardly see Pop's name mentioned as a COY, or Bruce/Duncan as DPOY, or Duncan as MVP etc.

[td4mvp21]

He'll always be behind Garnett because the fucking media won't get off KG's dick. Duncan is abetter defender than Garnett either way but don't expect the media to recognize that. I guess Duncan should start screaming and pumping his chest more. Maybe that will make him better defensively :wakeup

[ShoogarBear]

Marcus Camby, Defensive Player of the Year.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Whisky Dog]

I think the idea that bothers me isn't that the Spurs and Duncan aren't attention whores. Duncan was able to win consecutive MVP's despite the fact that he's not a media friendly guy. What bothers me, I think, is the willingness to credit Garnett's impact on the defensive end without numbers while continually refusing to do that for Duncan (or Bowen), who's been that sort of difference-maker for the entirety of his career. I suppose that the points aren't really separable -- Garnett gets that credit, I suppose, because those who decide those awards are enamored of him more than they are of Duncan. I guess, however, my ultimate bitch is that it's not just Garnett who gets more credit. To have a list alleging to be a list of the 5 most likely DPOY candidates and to exclude Duncan from that list while including Garnett is just asinine.

I'm inclined to use every weekly chat with Marc Stein, John Hollinger, Chad Ford . . . whomever . . . to ask why Duncan is never truly considered for that award, particularly given the fact that Garnett's exceptional year is about in line with Duncan's average year.

I agree and it's completely irrational to not have Duncan in the mix or winning it at least once, but we aren't dealing with rational sports media voting here. The media votes based on perception and personal agendas, and there just isn't anything rational in their thinking. The same reason why the choking ass Cowboys had 13 pro bowlers last season and why Marcus Camby ever touched a DPOY award.

[mrspurs]

Yeah it is so thrilling to watch a guy brick 20 jumpers in a row, then beat your chest when one goes down

:lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Marcus Camby, Defensive Player of the Year.

:bang:ihit:madrun:pctoss:cuss:vomit::td

FTFY

[Tmac&Luther]

Duncan is the best defensive player in the NBA and has been since he first stepped on the court in 1997. He is on the short list of best defensive players of all time. The only players as good as Duncan on D would be (maybe) Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon.

Homer statement of the year..... :downspin: Especially with the "maybe" Russell and Olajuwon (won't speak on Russell, because I didn't see him play first hand, but Olajuwon was without a doubt > than Tim Duncan defensively......and very easily I might add)

[m33p0]

Homer statement of the decade..... :downspin: Especially with the "maybe" Russell and Olajuwon (won't speak on Russell, because I didn't see him play first hand, but Olajuwon was without a doubt > than Tim Duncan defensively......and very easily I might add)
explain.

[Tmac&Luther]

explain.

There's no explanation needed and I'm not even going to waste my time doing it.......it's simply fact.

Hakeem is arguably the greatest defensive big man that ever played. He was a human eraser and dominated the paint defensively like no other...he even had the agility and athleticism to defend the perimeter players, and had remarkable longevity (was able to play prime defense very late into his career.)

Saying that he "may" just be as good as Duncan is homerism at it's best.

shyt and I said I wasn't going to waste my time.......oh well.

[m33p0]

There's no explanation needed and I'm not even going to waste my time doing it.......it's simply fact.

if its a fact then back it up. now, i do agree that hakeem was a better defender tim is. but he is not that far off. and you just can't come into a bar and blurt something out. its obnoxious.

[FromWayDowntown]

Look, whether Tim was better than Hakeem or not isn't really the point of this thread. If that's what you want to argue about, I'd respectfully ask you to start a different thread for that purpose.

The point here is that Tim Duncan is among the elite defensive players in the game at the moment; given that status, which strikes me as being something that cannot be questioned, it's beyond absurd for a writer making pre-season predictions to exclude Duncan from his list of likely DPOY candidates. And its unconscionable that Duncan has never won that award.

I do wonder if beating this drum to those who lead the charge of media hype might make some difference. Obviously, Tim's stellar play and exceptional numbers haven't done it; and obviously, the media's fascination with numbers alone doesn't define who should win the award (Garnett). Maybe it's time for us to have Tim's back and talk him up by pressuring the media jackasses who are readily available -- Stein, Bucher, Hollinger, Dupree, Abbott, Simmons -- to constantly deal with questions about why Duncan has never won the award.

[m33p0]

Look, whether Tim was better than Hakeem or not isn't really the point of this thread. If that's what you want to argue about, I'd respectfully ask you to start a different thread for that purpose.
another one? pass.

maybe we can ask tim to pump his chest and give the death stare to anyone whose shot he blocked? a little more expletives thrown now and again, maybe? or during interviews after winning games he'd could say something along the lines of "I'M THE GREATEST FUCKER HERE! AND YOU SNIVELING SHITS WOULD DIE WITHOUT ME! HAA HAHA!"?

[Galileo]

There's no explanation needed and I'm not even going to waste my time doing it.......it's simply fact.

Hakeem is arguably the greatest defensive big man that ever played. He was a human eraser and dominated the paint defensively like no other...he even had the agility and athleticism to defend the perimeter players, and had remarkable longevity (was able to play prime defense very late into his career.)

Saying that he "may" just be as good as Duncan is homerism at it's best.

shyt and I said I wasn't going to waste my time.......oh well.

Career Stats

Duncan

1992 blocks, 2221 fouls

Playoffs

415 blocks, 467 fouls

Hakeem

3830 blocks, 4383 fouls

Playoffs

472 blocks, 562 fouls

Blocks per foul

Duncan .90
Hakeem .87

Playoffs

Duncan .89
Hakeem .84

[duncan228]

Look, whether Tim was better than Hakeem or not isn't really the point of this thread. If that's what you want to argue about, I'd respectfully ask you to start a different thread for that purpose.

Let's not go there again. :lol

This is one of many, but at 38 pages it pretty much covered every angle.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76149


Maybe it's time for us to have Tim's back and talk him up by pressuring the media jackasses who are readily available -- Stein, Bucher, Hollinger, Dupree, Abbott, Simmons -- to constantly deal with questions about why Duncan has never won the award.

Let me know when to start.

[m33p0]

Let me know when to start.
You know your orders, soldier. Get to it!

[Allanon]

Duncan's too boring to get DPOY.

[024]

if a new team was created and you can have any player you want in the NBA to anchor your defense, who would you choose? duncan is not only the best low post defender in the NBA, but he leads by example. his presence has transformed the spurs into one of the top three defensive teams in the past decade. most superstars don't bother on the defensive end to save energy for offense. but they expect their teammates to play defense. duncan doesn't do that, he sets an example for the rest of the team.

[Galileo]

if a new team was created and you can have any player you want in the NBA to anchor your defense, who would you choose? duncan is not only the best low post defender in the NBA, but he leads by example. his presence has transformed the spurs into one of the top three defensive teams in the past decade. most superstars don't bother on the defensive end to save energy for offense. but they expect their teammates to play defense. duncan doesn't do that, he sets an example for the rest of the team.

Duncan never goes for ball fakes. The only other player that could do that was Bill Russell. but Russell was not as tall as Duncan.

Duncan rarely has to sit down during a game because of foul trouble. That's a very important part of being a great defender. You can't defend anyone on the bench, all you can do is wave a towel.

[Brutalis]

He should have won it by now, but Bowen even more so. San Antonio should have had back to back if not threes in DPOY with the two.

[angelbelow]

duncan will always be top 3 in DPOY votings, that should change this year. although im hoping he actually gets it this time!

[FromWayDowntown]

It's interesting to me to look at what Boston did last year and compare that to what the Spurs have done throughout the Duncan era.

Just taking a few simple numbers:

Boston allowed 90.3 ppg, .419 FG%, and 98.9 pts per 100 possessions.

These numbers led pundits to conclude that Boston's defense was dominant (it was) and that Garnett was the biggest reason for that (he probably was) and that Garnett deserved DPOY for that reason; it certainly wasn't his raw numbers that got him that award.

What's galling about that, though, from a pimping Duncan perspective, is that those numbers are basically the annual figures that Duncan's Spurs have put up during his career (bold numbers are better than the 07-08 BOS numbers):

97-98: 88.5 ppg, .411 FG%, 99.4 DR (points per 100 possessions)
98-99: 84.7 ppg, .402 FG%, 95.0 DR
99-00: 90.2 ppg, .425 FG%, 98.6 DR
00-01: 88.4 ppg, .419 FG%, 98.0 DR
01-02: 90.5 ppg, .426 FG%, 99.7 DR
02-03: 90.4 ppg, .427 FG%, 99.7 DR
03-04: 84.3 ppg, .409 FG%, 94.1 DR
04-05: 88.4 ppg, .426 FG%, 98.8 DR
05-06: 88.8 ppg, .433 FG%, 99.6 DR
06-07: 90.1 ppg, .443 FG%, 99.9 DR
07-08: 90.6 ppg, .444 FG%, 101.8 DR

I think the reasons Duncan has been ignored have been fleshed out pretty well here, but I felt my analysis wasn't complete without at least some degree of comparative context. What's interesting to me is that the dominance of those numbers is the same before David Robinson retired and after; it's the same before Bruce Bowen arrived and after. Tim's got teammates who play great defense, but I think the numbers strongly suggest the significance of Tim's defensive impact, no matter how ignored that might be at awards time.

[FromWayDowntown]

duncan will always be top 3 in DPOY votings, that should change this year. although im hoping he actually gets it this time!

You'd think, but Duncan has been in the top 3 for DPOY only twice in his career:

97-98: 5th
98-99: 5th
99-00: no votes
00-01: 3rd
01-02: no votes
02-03: 4th
03-04: 7th
04-05: 4th
05-06: 6th
06-07: 3rd
07-08: 9th

[Tmac&Luther]

Career Stats

Duncan

1992 blocks, 2221 fouls

Playoffs

415 blocks, 467 fouls

Hakeem

3830 blocks, 4383 fouls

Playoffs

472 blocks, 562 fouls

Blocks per foul

Duncan .90
Hakeem .87

Playoffs

Duncan .89
Hakeem .84

What a crappy stat :lmao What exactly is this supposed to prove........nothing. (seriously.....what a dumb meaningless stat)

Not only was Hakeem easily the better defender, He played against BETTER COMPETITION.

[angelbelow]

You'd think, but Duncan has been in the top 3 for DPOY only twice in his career:

97-98: 5th
98-99: 5th
99-00: no votes
00-01: 3rd
01-02: no votes
02-03: 4th
03-04: 7th
04-05: 4th
05-06: 6th
06-07: 3rd
07-08: 9th

wow that is a huge wake up call... maybe i was thinking about first team D... that really is unacceptable.

[ShoogarBear]

Marcus Camby, Defensive Player of the Year.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao




Hakeem is arguably the greatest defensive big man that ever played.

Okay, you topped me.

[Tmac&Luther]

if its a fact then back it up. now, i do agree that hakeem was a better defender tim is. but he is not that far off. and you just can't come into a bar and blurt something out. its obnoxious.

I already did, read above.........just about anybody that is unbiased and actually saw both players play in their prime would say Hakeem was the better defender. If yo don't believe me, I can easily start a thread on a unbiased board and we can see how the results would turn out. Only "Spurs homers" would think Duncan was a better defensive player.

[Galileo]

What a crappy stat :lmao What exactly is this supposed to prove........nothing. (seriously.....what a dumb meaningless stat)

Not only was Hakeem easily the better defender, He played against BETTER COMPETITION.

This proves that Duncan blocked more shots per foul than Hakeem. The only reason Duncan has fewer blocks than Hakeem is that he doesn't take as many risks.

Duncan never gets in foul trouble like Hakeem used to sometimes.

[anakha]

if its a fact then back it up.


I already did, read above.........




What a crappy stat :lmao What exactly is this supposed to prove........nothing. (seriously.....what a dumb meaningless stat)

Not only was Hakeem easily the better defender, He played against BETTER COMPETITION.

You sure backed it up, alright.

[Tmac&Luther]

This proves that Duncan blocked more shots per foul than Hakeem. The only reason Duncan has fewer blocks than Hakeem is that he doesn't take as many risks.

Duncan never gets in foul trouble like Hakeem used to sometimes.

This has absolutely jack shit to do with defense.....absolutely nothing. :lol

How about you also list the steals there buddy, Hakeem owned Duncan in that department.....he wasn't just a alltime great post defender/shot blocker.

[Tmac&Luther]

You sure backed it up, alright.

Selective reading I guess....look harder.

[anakha]

Selective reading I guess....look harder.

Still not seeing it, sorry.

I don't necessarily consider either Olajuwon or Duncan as being head and shoulders above the other, defensively, but you're not putting forth as good an argument for Olajuwon as others are for Duncan.

Back up what you're saying, and you'll sound more convincing.

[JamStone]

Over his career, Tim Duncan has definitely been one of the best defenders in the league, but saying he's the best defender of this generation is definitely an awfully biased statement. For a six year stretch, from 2000-01 to 2005-06, Ben Wallace dominated defense in the NBA. While his decline has been significant the last few years due to changing teams and systems, back injury, and getting older, he left his imprint on defense in this decade as the best defender of this generation.

[urunobili]

Over his career, Tim Duncan has definitely been one of the best defenders in the league, but saying he's the best defender of this generation is definitely an awfully biased statement. For a six year stretch, from 2000-01 to 2005-06, Ben Wallace dominated defense in the NBA. While his decline has been significant the last few years due to changing teams and systems, back injury, and getting older, he left his imprint on defense in this decade as the best defender of this generation.

that's why considering consistency in the last ten years... Bowen>Wallace>Artest>TD>Camby>KG

[m33p0]

I already did, read above.........just about anybody that is unbiased and actually saw both players play in their prime would say Hakeem was the better defender. If yo don't believe me, I can easily start a thread on a unbiased board and we can see how the results would turn out. Only "Spurs homers" would think Duncan was a better defensive player.
what? where?

it might interest you to note that duncan (12.7) is ranked 13th all-time in rebounds in the playoffs while hakeem (11.2) is ranked 21st. Duncan is also ranked 2nd (9.3) in defensive rebounds while Hakeem (7.9) is 12th. And while Hakeem (3.3) is 1st on the all-time playoffs blocks list, Duncan (2.7) is not far behind at 3rd. The only stat that Hakeem dominates in the head-to-head is steals (24th at 1.7), where Duncan is nowhere near the top 50 in that category.

And looking at those numbers, this comment is not warranted. Duncan holds his own.

but Olajuwon was without a doubt > than Tim Duncan defensively......and very easily I might add)


Over his career, Tim Duncan has definitely been one of the best defenders in the league, but saying he's the best defender of this generation is definitely an awfully biased statement. For a six year stretch, from 2000-01 to 2005-06, Ben Wallace dominated defense in the NBA. While his decline has been significant the last few years due to changing teams and systems, back injury, and getting older, he left his imprint on defense in this decade as the best defender of this generation.You hit the nail right on the head there.

[ShoogarBear]

I think Wallace was significantly overrated and his decline was as much and probably more due to changing teams as it was to age.

[JamStone]

Wallace was overrated in some regards. He was not an elite low post defender, but not bad either. But, other than that, he deserved the recognition he got as a defender. Again, in that six year stretch, he dominated defense, and it wasn't just holding down the paint. He clogged the lane, caused deflections, got steals, was a great team defender, played passing lanes, was quick enough to switch on many if not most perimeter players out in space.

His decline was significant, but during 2000-06, he was the best defender in the league.

[HarlemHeat37]

you're right JamStone..but you also have to consider that Duncan was putting in MAJOR effort offensively, being the #1 option on a team..that's obviously going to take up more energy than Ben Wallace, who was STRICTLY a defensive and rebounding specialist..

I'd take Duncan over Wallace, but I know where you're coming from..Tim should have had at least 1 of Wallace's DPOY, but Ben deserved the rest..Wallace was a better help defender and rebounder, while Duncan was a better anchor and post defender..

Bowen is IN NO WAY a better defender than Tim..I still don't understand how Spurs fans can say that..Duncan ANCHORS our D, and has every year..Bowen is a PERIMETER defender..Bruce can only impact ONE GUY at a time, while Tim controls an entire area of the floor..when Bowen gets beat, Duncan is the guy to protect him..that surely makes his job A LOT easier, as you can see when Bowen shades his defender into Tim..

[ShoogarBear]

Take Tim Duncan off the Spurs and put him on any other team in the league and his defensive impact would be exactly the same.

Take Ben Wallace away from a team with Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince and he's nowhere near as effective.

Wallace was a great defensive player, but the irony is that if he had been a better offensive player, the media would have given him fewer awards. Wallace winning four DPOYs while Duncan won none is a complete joke.

[Galileo]

Duncan has been named to the NBA defensive team 11 times. Only Duncan and Jabber have done that. And Jabber had only five 1st team selections, while Duncan has 8. Duncan is not done yet, either. He could easily make the defensive team 2 or 3 more times (or more, who knows). Duncan will probably end up his craeer as a defensive specialist and spot offensive player. So five years from now, Duncan might be averaging 9 or 10 points a game, yet still make the all-defensive team.

Hakeem made the NBA defensive team 9 times, 5 on the 1st team.

All-Defensive Selections by Player
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense_by_player.html

[JamStone]

you're right JamStone..but you also have to consider that Duncan was putting in MAJOR effort offensively, being the #1 option on a team..that's obviously going to take up more energy than Ben Wallace, who was STRICTLY a defensive and rebounding specialist..

I didn't say there wasn't a reason why Ben was a better defender. That's precisely why Ben was, because he could focus almost exclusively on the defensive end. That's precisely the reason Ben was better.




I'd take Duncan over Wallace, but I know where you're coming from..Tim should have had at least 1 of Wallace's DPOY, but Ben deserved the rest..Wallace was a better help defender and rebounder, while Duncan was a better anchor and post defender..

Which one of Ben's four DPOYs should Tim have had?

[JamStone]

Take Tim Duncan off the Spurs and put him on any other team in the league and his defensive impact would be exactly the same.

Take Ben Wallace away from a team with Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince and he's nowhere near as effective.

Wallace was a great defensive player, but the irony is that if he had been a better offensive player, the media would have given him fewer awards. Wallace winning four DPOYs while Duncan won none is a complete joke.

Ben Wallace was a dominant before Prince and Rasheed. Two of his DPOYs were before Rasheed played on the Pistons and before Tayshaun got significant minutes.

Ben started experiencing really bad back problems I believe around 2005. His defensive numbers started to really decline last season, but he also saw a drop in mpg. Even his one full season in Chicago, the Bulls went from 7th in the league in defensive rating to 1st in the league in defensive rating. Hard to argue your point when you see that.

In that 6 year stretch, you could have taken Ben Wallace and put him on any team in the league and they would have been significantly greater defensive team.

[ShoogarBear]

Ben Wallace was a dominant before Prince and Rasheed. Two of his DPOYs were before Rasheed played on the Pistons and before Tayshaun got significant minutes.

Ben started experiencing really bad back problems I believe around 2005. His defensive numbers started to really decline last season, but he also saw a drop in mpg. Even his one full season in Chicago, the Bulls went from 7th in the league in defensive rating to 1st in the league in defensive rating. Hard to argue your point when you see that.

In that 6 year stretch, you could have taken Ben Wallace and put him on any team in the league and they would have been significantly greater defensive team.

Pistons defensive stats in 2005-2006 with Ben Wallace, DPOY:
FGA 0.452
Points allowed 90.2
Points per 100 possessions 103.1 (5th out of 30)

in 2006-2007 without Ben Wallace, DPOY:
FGA 0.445
Points allowed 91.8
Points per 100 possessions 104.2 (7th out of 30)

Maybe a little worse overall, but certainly not a compelling argument for him being the best defensive player in the league.

[JamStone]

Why ignore the fact that the Bulls went from 7th in the league in defensive rating to 1st in the league in defensive rating by adding Ben Wallace?

And if we're going to do the "look how good the team is without him" game, let's take a look at the Spurs as a defensive unit without Duncan. In 2004-05, he missed 16 games. I threw out two games because they went into double overtime.

In the other 14 games, the Spurs without Duncan gave up 91.2 ppg on 43.7% FG shooting.

On that 2004-05 season, the Spurs gave up 88.4 ppg on 42.6% FG shooting. The difference is not much at all. Now based on that would you go ahead and say that Duncan didn't have the defensive impact of best defensive player in the league? I doubt it.

Look, part of defense is how good your teammates are and how good the coaches put you in position to succeed with coaching, scouting, and whatever else. The Pistons already had a good foundation of defense without Ben Wallace just like the Spurs do without Duncan. It's the same reason why the Spurs actually got better the year after David Robinson retired and replaced him with Rasho. Are you going to argue Rasho was a better defensive player than Robinson (even acknowledging Robinson's decline in his last few years)? Of course not. But, the system helped make Rasho serviceable.

Your evidence is good on the surface, not much substance when you think about it deeper. The Pistons still had quality defenders, including McDyess who stepped in as an underrated low post defender and rebounder. That drop-off wasn't nearly as bad as David Robinson to Rasho Nesterovic and the Spurs actually improved. David Robinson sucked at defense his last season?

[ShoogarBear]

Why ignore the fact that the Bulls went from 7th in the league in defensive rating to 1st in the league in defensive rating by adding Ben Wallace?

Gee, then why wasn't he DPOY that year? Could it be because the voters don't know what the hell they're doing?


And if we're going to do the "look how good the team is without him" game, let's take a look at the Spurs as a defensive unit without Duncan. In 2004-05, he missed 16 games. I threw out two games because they went into double overtime. Nice. Ignore the games that would blow your point to smithereens.


Look, part of defense is how good your teammates are and how good the coaches put you in position to succeed with coaching, scouting, and whatever else. The Pistons already had a good foundation of defense without Ben Wallace just like the Spurs do without Duncan. It's the same reason why the Spurs actually got better the year after David Robinson retired and replaced him with Rasho. Are you going to argue Rasho was a better defensive player than Robinson (even acknowledging Robinson's decline in his last few years)? Of course not. But, the system helped make Rasho serviceable.First, I don't remember anyone claiming that DRob was the DPOY in 2003. Second, Rasho was a surprisingly effective defender that year. Third, anyone will tell you that the major reason the Spurs improved was because of the improved perimeter and wing defense, a lot of which had to do with *cough* Hedo.


Your evidence is good on the surface, not much substance when you think about it deeper. The Pistons still had quality defenders, including McDyess who stepped in as an underrated low post defender and rebounder. That drop-off wasn't nearly as bad as David Robinson to Rasho Nesterovic and the Spurs actually improved. David Robinson sucked at defense his last season?Again, show me where we're talking about Robinson being the DPOY the last few years.

Ben Wallace was allegedly the best defender in the league, and yet when he left there was almost no impact on the Pistons' defense.

[JamStone]

Two double overtime games that went scored in the 120s and 130s. Yeah, it would have skewed the numbers. And, 14 games is still a big enough sample that should provide insight to Duncan's defensive impact. It shouldn't need two double overtime games to skew the numbers.

We were talking impact. You note the Pistons defense and still ignore the Bulls defense improving all the way to the #1 defensive rating by adding Ben Wallace. And, all you say is: "see the voters are dumb."

You'd think that 14 games is enough to show a huge difference in Duncan's defensive impact, but similar to Ben, it appeared to be nominal and we both know it wasn't. Who you view as the best defender in the league should have been much clearer in those 14 games he missed even without those two double overtime games. But, guess what? It's also about coaching and teammates and schemes.

In that six stretch from 2000 to 2006, Ben Wallace was a better rebounder, shot blocker (except once), and steals guy, while fouling less each of those seasons. Tim Duncan was the more effective low post defender. Everything else, Ben did better on the defensive end, including altering shots, getting deflections, switching out on the perimeter, and defending the pick-and-roll.

Your only argument is that a team he helped make great defensively was able to remain close to as great defensively, but you still refuse to acknowledge that he made Chicago go from very good to the best defensively by scoffing at that fact.

And, Rasho Nesterovic and Hedo Turkoglu (also a drop-off from Stephen Jackson) were surprisingly effective because of the schemes and all of the teammates. Just the same, Duncan does well because of the coaching schemes and his teammates.